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Good Inside with Dr. BeckyGood Inside with Dr. Becky

The Power of Letting Kids Struggle

Dr. Becky sits down with Reese Witherspoon to discuss her newest children's book Busy Betty and the Circus Surprise, and the power of letting kids struggle, resilience, creativity, and the true definition of confidence. Order Reese Witherspoon's book: https://bit.ly/3t8gX2s Join Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3t1kEXG Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast To listen to Dr. Becky's TED Talk on repair visit https://www.ted.com/talks/becky_kennedy_the_single_most_important_parenting_strategy Today’s episode is brought to you by SEED:  When kids are in a picky eating stage, one of the things that goes out the window is fiber - which is really important for regular bowel movements and the gut microbiome. 95% of children and adults in the U.S. don’t reach their daily recommended fiber intake. And it can be especially tricky to get enough fiber into the diets of picky eaters. With one serving of Seed’s PDS-08, your child is getting a third of their recommended daily fiber intake. You can just pour the pre-portioned sachets of naturally sweet powder into yogurt, a smoothie, milk — or whatever works for your family. Everyone wins: you don’t feel as stressed and your child gets all the benefits of a healthy gut — and, to be honest, more regular, easier poops! Use code GOODINSIDE for 20% off your first month of Seed's PDS-08 Daily Synbiotic + Free Shipping.

Dr. Becky KennedyhostReese Witherspoonguest
Oct 3, 202347mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:03

    Intro

    1. BK

      [gentle music]

  2. 0:03 – 1:40

    Reese Witherspoon on why kids need to experience failure (and discomfort)

    1. BK

      I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. Reese Witherspoon is someone who doesn't exactly need an introduction. But what you might not know about Reese is she's written her second children's book, Busy Betty and the Circus Surprise, that is out today, and she's also one of my favorite people to talk about parenting with.

    2. RW

      I see this a lot with parents. I don't know when we stopped letting our kids fail. Like, I learned so much from the paper I didn't turn in or the demerits I got, so I got detention. I was suspended from school [laughs] when I was in fifth grade for talking in class and being disruptive, and my parents didn't say, "Ugh, she didn't deserve that," and take me out of school. They actually let me sit in it and feel uncomfortable. So I think learning from failure is actually a valuable tool that you can't take away from kids, right? You rob them if you don't let them sit in the discomfort of the experience.

    3. BK

      In her book, she brings to life so many of the themes that we hold really dear here at Good Inside, letting kids struggle instead of taking them out of struggle, resilience, creativity, holding onto big ideas, and the true definition of confidence. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. We'll be back right after this. Hey,

  3. 1:40 – 3:08

    Podcast sponsor message: Good Inside Membership and community support

    1. BK

      Good Inside listeners. So sometimes with parenting, a podcast does the trick, and sometimes with parenting, we need a bit more, and I wanted to be sure you knew that we're set up to help you in those trickier times. The Good Inside Membership platform is your parenting encyclopedia, coupled with a community of parents and experts you trust, which means that no matter what you're going through, we've got you covered. And then we take it a step further because I know that we're people who don't just want to solve a problem and return to baseline. We want to raise our baselines, right? And this is what we really do together, reduce triggers, learn to set boundaries, and access that sturdy leader that I know is inside all of us. It's all there when you're looking for that next step. And until then, please do check out goodinside.com/podcast. Scroll down to the Ask Dr. Becky section at the bottom and let me know what you wanna talk about in future podcast episodes. [upbeat music] Hi, Reese.

    2. RW

      Hi, Becky. Or do I call you Dr. Becky?

    3. BK

      You know, either one is fine. I, I feel like we get each other. I'm comfortable.

    4. RW

      Look, you went to that school for that long. I'm gonna call you Dr. Becky.

    5. BK

      Okay. I will, I will-

    6. RW

      [laughs]

    7. BK

      ... embrace the doctor. Call me Dr. Becky. That's what it is.

    8. RW

      [laughs]

    9. BK

      So good to have you here.

    10. RW

      So nice to be here.

  4. 3:08 – 6:12

    Who is Busy Betty? Reese’s origin story and the real-life inspiration

    1. BK

      I wanna hear all about this amazing book you wrote. So Busy Betty is, like, a whole series, right?

    2. RW

      Mm-hmm. Well, this is book number two.

    3. BK

      Okay.

    4. RW

      So there's two.

    5. BK

      There's two.

    6. RW

      Is that a series? That's a series.

    7. BK

      I think it's a series. It's a character that's now, you know, being developed. I feel like you're someone just like Betty, who dreams of big things, so I don't know. I just don't anticipate it ending at two, so maybe I'm just looking to the future, but who knows? I don't know anything. No one knows. So.

    8. RW

      Maybe. [laughs]

    9. BK

      Busy Betty and the Circus Surprise. So can you just... Like, I like to always understand first to me. Like, I like to understand the backstory, like, what's underneath this. Like, what was underneath this for you? What's under Betty? Who is she? What does she mean to you, and how did that even lead to the second book in the Betty series?

    10. RW

      Um, well, when I was... Uh, during the pandemic, I went through all childhood photos. That was my project. I kind of-

    11. BK

      Hmm

    12. RW

      ... finally went through the boxes and sorted things and scanned a lot of stuff so that I would have archives and things. I found all these really interesting pictures of me creating little businesses in the backyard when I was a little girl, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, I forgot." My brother and I would build these businesses together. We had a barrette business where he would go to the mall, buy the barrettes for, for a dollar. I would, um, write people's names on them and personalize them, and then we'd up-charge it to a $1.50, so we were making a profit, and he would ta- tell me about profit margins in the third grade. And [laughs] but we also just had fun, and, um, so that's what sort of started this idea. I was also talking to my kindergarten teacher 'cause my son goes to the school that I went to, uh-huh, and I talked to-

    13. BK

      And there's the same teacher is there?

    14. RW

      Patty Wright.

    15. BK

      No.

    16. RW

      Patty Wright, who knew me when I was five years old, skipping around the, the blacktop and the, the playground, pretending to be Dolly Parton because I was obsessed with Dolly Parton. And I'd say, "Miss Wright, I'm gonna be famous one day." [laughs] And she said, "What are you gonna do?" And I said, "I'm gonna be a singer like Dolly Parton." And she said, "Okay, Reese, yeah, I believe you. I'll go see your concert, okay? But you have to go play with the other children." And so I, I sat down with her, and I started talking to her. I said, "You know, tell, talk to me about the different kids that you teach, and what do you do with kids who have a lot of energy and creativity?" And she was like, "You were just high-spirited. I always had to direct your play and your creativity, and, um, you just didn't wanna play with other kids. You were so imaginative, you wanted to play alone. So I'd have-"

    17. BK

      Hmm.

    18. RW

      "... to tell you, 'How can you think of a game that would get the other kids to play make-believe with you?'"

    19. BK

      Hmm. Mm-hmm.

    20. RW

      And she changed my socialization, and she, you know, helped me make fr- I didn't have friends for the first three years of elementary school. I just was, uh, very much, like, in my own head and doing my own thing. And, um, and I had a brother, so I would just hang out with my brother all the time.

    21. BK

      Yeah.

    22. RW

      And so, um-

    23. BK

      But I wanna jump in on that be-

    24. RW

      Yeah

  5. 6:12 – 7:52

    Not having friends vs. being lonely: “Know your players”

    1. BK

      ... just to make sure. It sounds like during those years you weren't lonely. You didn't-

    2. RW

      Mm-hmm

    3. BK

      ... have friends, and you weren't lonely. Both, both are true?

    4. RW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      Be- because, uh, you know, one, uh, uh, what strikes me is actually it's, [laughs] it's crazy timing, is this r- a conversation I was recently having with a parent. Um, a little different, but her daughter really likes to read at recess. She loves reading, she's like seven, and the mom is extremely social. Like, social butterfly, and she's kind of entering like, "What's wrong with my daughter?" And, "She's never gonna have any friends." And, and one of the things that was really helpful to explore was kind of the difference between the parent's fear, and almost-

    6. RW

      Mm-hmm

    7. BK

      ... her putting herself in her daughter's shoes, like, "I wouldn't have wanted to read," versus her daughter, who I know actually seems like, like, at this stage in her life, she, she's happy to be doing that. And so your story, I feel like, is such a poignant one. Like, people, l- people hear your name, I think everyone's like, "Yeah, like, Reese Witherspoon's figured some things out. Like, she seems to have, like, adapted okay." You know? Like, you're... Right? And so, but to hear, like, oh, like, there's a way when kids are young and they're figuring out who they are and what matters to them, that their version of satisfaction, you know, c- could actually look very different from another-

    8. RW

      Mm-hmm

    9. BK

      ... kid's. Mm.

    10. RW

      Yeah, and I think that we, it's our job as parents and caregivers to understand, just know your players, right? Each one of your kids is gonna be totally different. Teachers know this.

    11. BK

      Mm.

    12. RW

      Right? But as parents, it's our job not to make them to conform to who we want them to be. It's our, it's our job to figure out who they are and help them play to their strengths.

  6. 7:52 – 9:09

    Parenting three different kids—and blending them into Busy Betty

    1. BK

      Ah. We both have three kids, and yeah, my three kids, like, completely different from each other. I keep wondering, like, if I had four or five or six, would they all be equally as different from each other? My guess is there are, like, innumerable permutations. And so I'm curious with you, you have three, too. Is it hardest for you in some ways to parent the kid who's most like you, and you see stuff in them, and you're like, "Oh, my goodness," or to parent the kid who's in some ways least like you?

    2. RW

      Hmm. That's a really good question. I think probably-

    3. BK

      Both is also allowed.

    4. RW

      Gosh.

    5. BK

      [laughs]

    6. RW

      I mean, all, all three of my kids are so different. I have one very introverted kid, very quiet. I have, uh, a very social kid, and I have a kid who's, um, very talkative and very inquisitive, and like, almost endlessly curious. Like, I've, I, there's so many questions, I don't know how to answer all the questions. [laughs] You know what's kind of fun? Is I got to combine all of them into Busy Betty.

    7. BK

      Hmm.

    8. RW

      So a little bit of is, uh, little Busy Betty is who I was as a little girl. High-spirited, lots of different ideas, learning from failure, which is a big piece of the book. And then a lot of it is l- literally things that have happened to my children, or questions they've asked me.

  7. 9:09 – 12:41

    The confidence reframe: letting kids learn they’re “not good at” something

    1. BK

      Speak to the learning from failure part. Like, like, give people a preview of that, and i- I think you're naming it 'cause it's so important, you know, for kids' development, right?

    2. RW

      Yeah, I just, I see this a lot with parents. I don't know when we stopped letting our kids fail. Like, I learned so much from the paper I didn't turn in, or the demerits I got so I got detention. I was suspended from school [laughs] when I was in fifth grade for talking in class and being disruptive, and writing creative notes and passing them to my friends. And my parents didn't say, "Ah, she didn't deserve that," and take me out of school. They actually let me sit in it and feel uncomfortable. So I think learning from failure is actually a valuable tool that you can't take away from kids, right? You rob them if you don't let them sit in the discomfort of the experience. I'm gonna, I'll tell a story about my daughter, and I hope it's okay if I tell this. She was in third grade, and she was, she wanted to be on the basketball team 'cause all of her friends were on the basketball team. And, um, she went to the practices all the time. It was really hard for her. She couldn't do the layups. She couldn't, she just couldn't get the coordination with the dribbling and the th- And she just was- she didn't like it. And so she went, and then she had her last game of the season, and she went home and laid down on the bed and started crying. She's like, [laughs] "I didn't score any. I didn't score one goal. And, and everybody scored goals this entire season. I didn't score any goals." And I was like, "Yeah, I know." I said, "I know. That, that probably feels really bad." She's like, "Yeah, it feels terrible." [laughs] And I said, "You know what also? Maybe you're not good at basketball." [laughs] She was like, "What?"

    3. BK

      What?

    4. RW

      "How can you tell me I'm not good at something?" I was like, "It's actually really important to learn what you're not good at."

    5. BK

      Yes. Yes.

    6. RW

      I had a very similar experience with the volleyball team. I did not make the volleyball team in sixth grade.

    7. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RW

      And I cried so much, and but I learned I wasn't good at volleyball.

    9. BK

      And you know-

    10. RW

      [laughs]

    11. BK

      ... this is music to my ears. This is, like, such core of the philosophy I talk about, and I actually think it's the essence of what we get wrong about confidence. Confidence isn't feeling like you're the best at something. Confidence is feeling like it's okay to be you when you're not the best at something, and that is the biggest gift of all, right? And yes, you reflected that back to your daughter. It sounds very similar to the way we generally talk about, you know, things with our kids, too, where to me the biggest gift, and I really do, I get this, like, excitement, like, and I know that sounds awful, like, when my kids are a little upset, where I'm like, wait a second, if I can tolerate their distress, they're gonna think it's possible for them to tolerate their distress. And then it could be small. It's like my son struggling to do a puzzle, right? And instead of being like, "Here's how to do it," you know, kind of, quote, "keep him happy," you know, I'm like, "Oh- Puzzles are so hard, right? Or, "Ugh, I forgot to bring my computer to school." This happened to my sixth grader, right? And I did know. I could have told him, "Here it is," but when he came home upset, I was like, "You only learn from feelings. If I am robbing you of disappointment, you're not gonna use the feeling to become more responsible, and I know I don't want to remind you about your computer for the rest of your life." Like, I wanna work myself out of that job, and I won't do that if I don't let you experience the reality.

  8. 12:41 – 15:35

    Age-appropriate struggle: when to help vs. when to pause

    1. RW

      Mm-hmm. You're so right. You're so right. And also, I think the hard part, too, as a parent is age-appropriate failure.

    2. BK

      Yes.

    3. RW

      So we are supposed to intervene when they, their, their, you know, their little hands can't cut correctly. We're supposed to help them with motor skills, right? So intervening with certain things at young age is different than once you're... So what do you think, I actually wanna ask you developmentally, when is the good time to start saying, "I see you failed."

    4. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    5. RW

      "That's hard."

    6. BK

      Well, I guess I'm thinking about something, like, in between even that. Like, let's say it's your, I don't know, it's your 14-month-old, and they can't, you know, I don't know, get the food they want on their fork, and they're trying to use it, right? Of course, like, we wanna help. I'm not gonna be like, "Well, I'm not gonna let you eat food until you can do this by yourself." Like, that's definitely not my parenting approach. But to me, there's a big difference for what our kid learned from, "Okay, here it is. Okay, stop crying," versus if I can calm my own body first and just say, "Becky," and this is, I really do need to say this myself, "I'm safe. This is not an emergency. This is not an emergency." Like, I need to remind my body that.

    7. RW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. BK

      And then I might say something different to my 14-month-old, which is, "Oh, so tricky," or, "Oh, you're working so hard." And even if that only lasts five seconds, 10 seconds before I do say, "I'm gonna help you with that fork," I've literally increased my child's frustration tolerance for 10 seconds. That's, that's actually how they learn to be successful. Kids learn to be successful by lengthening the amount of time they tolerate struggling. The success finds itself, and when we beeline a kid from struggle to success, they grow up thinking that's entitlement. They grow up thinking they shouldn't have to struggle. Like, kind of where is the easy win here? Where is the person rescuing me, right? Because actually, their bodies are like, "I've never really had to tolerate struggling before, so I'm scared. I'm actually scared of this feeling."

    9. RW

      Yeah, and we all know that feeling, even as adults.

    10. BK

      Yes.

    11. RW

      You have it over and over and over again, and I do think that's so well-said. It's like your tolerance for the struggle-

    12. BK

      Yes

    13. RW

      ... of literally everything in life.

    14. BK

      Yeah. I, I really, like, I've said that about my kids. Like, I hope they're good at struggling. I think that's, like, one of the best predictors of success, the longer you can... I m- not to the point that it's, like, you know, really working against you or, you know, something like that, but like, this is hard. Okay, what do I do next? And in that way, working on a puzzle a little longer when you're three is really no different than, like, writing the script you wanna write. Because even then, you're gonna have a moment of saying, "I can't do this. It's too hard." And if you can draw on, "Wait, let me take a deep breath. I, I, you know, I'm gonna figure this out," we all know what happens next.

    15. RW

      Yeah.

  9. 15:35 – 19:37

    Big ideas need teamwork: creativity, execution, and asking better questions

    1. BK

      So let's bring this back to Betty because she is, she's industrious. She's industrious. She's, uh, she's full of big ideas, and she believes, I think, in her ability-

    2. RW

      Mm

    3. BK

      ... to bring those ideas to life.

    4. RW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      Even when there's obstacles in her way.

    6. RW

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      Right?

    8. RW

      She ha- Yes. She has incredible optimism and creativity, and I think a big piece of her, too, a big piece of writing the books that was fun for me, was the teamwork aspect, too, because that's a big part of my life and my-

    9. BK

      Mm

    10. RW

      ... creative work. I c- I have a big creative brain, but I can come up with a million ideas. Only really two of them are able to be executed and with the right team around me. [laughs] So I'm always deeply appreciative of my team. There are different perspectives. I always like that, um, Betty has a friend who comes in and sees the mess and goes, "That's not a mess. This could work. We just need to adjust one thing."

    11. BK

      Mm.

    12. RW

      So they're adaptable. They're kids who are figuring it out on their own. This is actually one of my favorite things to do with kids, too. I've been a parent since 1999. So I do little things that are fun social experiments with them, too. Like, I'll give them... Well, look, I mean, we did so many lemonade stands, right? So I would start to say, "Hmm, how can we make it different?" Because there's so many lemonade stands. What do we add to the lemonade-

    13. BK

      Mm

    14. RW

      ... that's gonna make it special, that people really think it's something creative and interesting? What, what, what else could we add with the lemonade for a less amount of money that might make it more appealing? And so I get them thinking about it, and then I make them actually do it.

    15. BK

      Yeah.

    16. RW

      We had a snow cone stand. Snow cone stands are a big popular one in our family in the, in the summer. And, um, we kind of model the whole business, like what is the startup cost, and how are we gonna market it, and who's gonna actually make the product, and who's gonna sell to people, and who runs the cash register? And it's fun to watch their brains work.

    17. BK

      Oh my goodness. I mean, you're, you're speaking my language here because I, I think so much about the power of questions to our kids, right? Um, and the difference between teaching our kids what to think versus teaching them how to think. I mean, I could cry at that difference, and teaching someone what to think is telling them things, right, where you could say, "Hey, you should really add cookies to the lemonade stand," right? But we all remember when I was teenag- we were teenagers. Someone can tell you what to think. It's probably not gonna work, right? But when you pose questions to your kid, and I, I always think the power of doing this is starting before they can answer questions. 'Cause, like, when you say to maybe your four-year-old doing a lemonade stand- I wonder what else you could sell. Like, people are like, "You think my four-year-old's gonna have an answer?"

    18. RW

      They do.

    19. BK

      The power of the moment hap- They might, but even if they don't, the moment's already happened because now the next time they do something, they're gonna say to themselves, "I wonder what else I could add." And that's like [laughs] that's everything. Because you, and I was thinking about what you're saying, I'm like that, too. I'm such an idea generator, and I need someone to be like, "Gas, gas, gas to your-"

    20. RW

      [laughs]

    21. BK

      You know, I mean, sorry, "Brake, brake, brake to your gas." Like, nope. You know? But, and then we, we finally get somewhere. Um, but I think I ask myself a lot of questions, and, and I think I ask my kids a lot of questions, and it sounds like you do that, too, which is what allows kids to become creative.

    22. RW

      Also, I learn so much. I did a reading of Busy Betty last year, and I sat in an audience, and at the very end I asked them, "Has anybody here ever run a business?" And they're all like, "Mm-mm. Mm-mm."

    23. BK

      [laughs]

    24. RW

      I said, "Have you ever had a lemonade stand?" "Oh, yeah, yeah, we've all had a le-"

    25. BK

      [laughs]

    26. RW

      I said, "You've run a business." And then we ta- I said, "What is another business that you could sell? With the same table, but you could sell something different or special." One girl s- I mean, said the most amazing thing. When I said, "What could you add on to the lemonade that would make it really special?" She goes, "Bubbles." Come on.

    27. BK

      I-

    28. RW

      I already wanna go to that lemonade stand. [laughs] I learn, you learn so... Bubbles make everything better.

    29. BK

      100%. They really do.

  10. 19:37 – 21:18

    Letting kids try “bad ideas” so they can discover the fix

    1. RW

      And children's imagination is so free, and it's, it's so amazing if you just listen to them and let them learn. And, and let y- them surprise you. And a- and then also, let them try some bad ideas. Um, so the snow cone idea is actually good 'cause I got this kind of inexpensive machine, and we had to figure out how to get the ice to the machine on the street.

    2. BK

      Mm.

    3. RW

      The way their brains were trying [laughs] to figure out how to get the ice... First they started with a cup. Uh-oh, they only had one cup.

    4. BK

      [laughs]

    5. RW

      Then they started with a bowl. Uh-oh, the bowl melted in the sun. Then they were like, "We need a cooler. We need a cooler." [laughs] It was just amazing.

    6. BK

      Yes.

    7. RW

      It was so fun.

    8. BK

      Well, because it seems like you're able to really witness the way their work and experimentation and failures led to this a-ha moment. Like, witnessing your kid have an a-ha moment versus kind of, like, giving them your a-ha moment, like, you could've said, "Hey, guys," like, "a cooler could probably be better than a cup." You know? You- It's so easy as an adult to say that, but watching a kid experience the f- the, like, the sense that they came up with an idea that clicked after their experience mounted, and, like, kind of just watching that, it's, it's magic as a parent, right?

    9. RW

      It is. It's so amazing and fun just to see. And, and sometimes they have great ideas.

    10. BK

      Yes.

    11. RW

      And then sometimes you have to just hold their hand through the failure. Or you go, "Okay, that ice clogged the machine. I'm gonna help unclog the machine." [laughs] But I feel like those days go by so quickly, too.

    12. BK

      I know.

    13. RW

      'Cause you're just working on a, on a collective idea and a project. Also, they're learning about team- teamwork, too, 'cause you literally can't do anything like that by yourself.

  11. 21:18 – 24:47

    Control hot spots: clothes, fitting in, and identity development

    1. BK

      Yeah. Was any of that hard for you? Like, I know I'm thinking about parents who, they know about themselves. They're like, "I'm kind of high on control. I'm kind of perfectionistic myself, so watching my kid come up with ideas that are, quote, 'wrong'" or, right? Like, they're, they're aware. They're like, it's, it... "That's, like, so hard for me."

    2. RW

      Mm. See, that's not hard for me in a creative space. You know what's har- was really hard for me as a parent, was watching my kids, um, go into a place like, this sounds so odd, but I'm sure you've heard this before, not controlling how they look and what they wear, 'cause I wanted to do that so badly.

    3. BK

      Mm.

    4. RW

      I was just like, "No, no, no. If you just wear this outfit, it's cute. And i- if you d- and then no one will judge you, and you'll just fit in, and then..." But it's actually... I, I actually thought it, I am robbing them [laughs] of learning those lessons of, first of all, self-expression, creativity, and y- you know, who you are i- in the world in a group.

    5. BK

      Yeah.

    6. RW

      How do you assimilate? How do you stand out? Which one are you? If I dressed you and told you how to be, like literally sometimes just telling kids what to wear can cripple them later in life because that's lit- Your self-identity is designed around things that you succeed at, and-

    7. BK

      Yeah

    8. RW

      ... am I making any sense? Do you know what I'm trying to say?

    9. BK

      Oh, my goodness. You're making so much sense, and I feel like for so long I felt like I'm good in that way, and then I heard myself with my daughter, she's at the age now where a lot of the girls, when they go to birthday parties, they're, they're, they're, like, quote, like, looking cute. Like, they kind of make themself up differently, and my daughter just wants to wear her brother's sports shirts and sports shirt, you know, and I remember saying in a way that I thought, like, "Hey, I just wanna let you know, the girls at this party are gonna be wearing this," so, and I kinda pulled out this dress. And she literally, she goes, "Just because other people are wearing dresses, why would that make me want to wear a dress?" And I was like, boom. Oh, oh, okay. You know? And it was... I, I was actually, after I was like, oh, my goodness. Isn't that, like, the self-esteem [laughs] I'm working to gain? And I think, again, it comes from this good place. Like, you want to... All of this, the, we think we're protecting our kids in those moments by taking them out of failure, by telling them, "You should wear this," by saying, "Hey, you really gotta, you know, remember your computer for school." But when we're protecting them from a bad outcome, potentially, we're often not preparing them for life, where they're inevitably going to have to deal with bad outcomes, right? So...

    10. RW

      Yeah, and I also think that we're focusing on protecting them from a bad out- outcome, and also we're not letting them learn to self-regulate.

    11. BK

      Yes.

    12. RW

      You know, or adapt or move.

    13. BK

      Yes.

    14. RW

      Right? So I watched all my kids, their sense of style or what they thought was cool or-

    15. BK

      Mm-hmm

    16. RW

      ... evolve, you know? And, and it also should be age appropriate too. There's a time where they become more self-conscious-

    17. BK

      Yes

    18. RW

      ... in puberty, and, you know, and learning, like, when to step in and be helpful and when to shut up. [laughs] It's so hard. It's so hard. [gentle music]

  12. 24:47 – 27:01

    Sponsor break: fiber, picky eating, and Seed’s pediatric synbiotic

    1. BK

      So here's something I really struggle with. I want my kids to feel in control of their bodies at mealtime, and also I want my kids to eat foods that keep them healthy and strong. And when my kids are in a picky eating stage, one of the things that goes out the window is fiber, which I know is really important for regular bowel movements and the gut microbiome. Well, I recently learned that I'm not alone in this struggle. I mean, 95% of kids and adults in the U.S. don't reach their daily recommended fiber intake, and it's especially tricky to get enough fiber into the diets of picky eaters. Here's what's been helping me in my home. Seed's PDS-08 Pediatric Daily Synbiotic. With one serving of Seed's PDS-08, your child is getting a third of their recommended daily fiber intake. You can just pour the pre-portioned sachets of naturally sweet powder into yogurt, a smoothie, milk, or whatever works for your family. Everyone wins. I mean, I'm not as stressed, and my kids get all the benefits of a healthy gut, and to be honest, more regular, easier poops. Use code GOODINSIDE for 20% off your first month of Seed's PDS-08 Daily Synbiotic, plus free shipping. [gentle music] What you just said about that evolution is, you know, when your kid's in a stage, like they wanna wear something that you're like, "Oh my goodness," or, I don't know, they're in some type of stage. I feel like one of the hardest part of parenting is like my kid can be in a stage that's hard for me, and it just feels like it's gonna be the truth forever about them. Versus what you're saying is like-

    2. RW

      Mm

    3. BK

      ... they're gonna, they're gonna pass into some other stage. It might be harder for me. It could be easier for me. And sometimes what I have found is the more I try to control something in my kid in their stage that's hard for me, the longer they actually stay in it because now it's a way to [laughs] like define themselves as separate from me, right? And now we're in, like, a power struggle, right? So y- I-

    4. RW

      Right

    5. BK

      ... can you speak to that a... Like, you-- It's amazing, you have kids at s- different life stages.

    6. RW

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      Has that been helpful in parenting your third? Like, do you feel like you have a little more of a zoom out of like these things are a stage, it's gonna evolve? Yeah?

  13. 27:01 – 30:32

    Food, pottying, and the trust–control tradeoff

    1. RW

      Yeah. I think anybody who has older kids and then their third one or fourth coming up, I, I think sometimes around food too, food gets to be very controlling.

    2. BK

      Mm.

    3. RW

      Um, so I've had one kid's a great eater. One's, yeah, okay, fine. One has a very rigid idea of what is good and not good, and so adapting around food concerns. You know, I will say my mom was a pediatric nurse, so I got the benefit, she actually taught pediatric nursing-

    4. BK

      Mm

    5. RW

      ... so she would bring me in as an example to her classes sometimes and get, tell stories when she came home about, I was trying to show people that, about nutrition and, um, that there's time, there's periods of stages of, of children's development where they don't eat very much, and we all get really worried. Oh my God, they're not eating. They're not eating. They're not eating perfectly, you know? And then it's like you can hold on so tight that you're actually causing more damage. Um-

    6. BK

      Yes

    7. RW

      ... sometimes, like, ignoring the food controlling behavior dissipates it a little bit.

    8. BK

      Yes.

    9. RW

      You know? When you're watching too much and you're talking about it too much, it becomes this center focus around family meals.

    10. BK

      Yes.

    11. RW

      Um, so I, I would love to hear your thoughts on that because I've just observationally, that's the, a, an issue a lot of people deal with.

    12. BK

      Yes. I mean, I think when... It, it's, it's similar. We're talking about appearance and clothes and food, right? I find it helpful to think about control and trust as binaries, as opposites. And so the more we exert control, the more, often without intending to, we're kind of saying to someone, "I don't trust you." Right? Which is why if, like, your boss is standing over you being like, "Write this thing now," you're like, it feels like they don't trust you. Like, it feels so bad. Where if they're like, "Hey, this thing has to be redone. I'm gonna go to my office. Let me know. I have faith in you," uh, you f- you f- you feel the trust because there's, like, an absence of control. And for kids, what they eat, like, what literally goes into their body and what they swallow and, uh, that's one of the only things they have, like, full control over.

    13. RW

      [laughs]

    14. BK

      It really is. Like, it's often honestly what they eat and when they pee and poop, which are also two areas when kids are young that can make parents very anxious because-

    15. RW

      Mm

    16. BK

      ... they're the two areas they don't have control over.

    17. RW

      Mm-hmm. That's right.

    18. BK

      And yes, the irony is the thing that really helps kids in the potty process or actually on their own schedule exploring a wide range of foods is actually feeling like they trust their bodies to, like, figure out in some ways this, like, very natural developmental thing. Like, okay, I have to eat. And the thing that really gets in their way is when our anxiety as a parent, you know, a lot of us when we're anxious, we double down on control. It ends, we think it's gonna help our anxiety. It actually always makes it worse, but we think, we lead with it. And then, yes, kids will say like, "I'm not eating anything," or, um, like they, you know, "I'm not go- I'm, I'm not potty trained anymore," whatever it is. Because I, in a way, what they're saying is like, "This is the only thing in my life that I think I can really control, but I'm getting the message that, like, you don't trust my body." And so that really, like, gets in a kid's way of those really important processes. And like I hear myself talking, and I h- I, I hear the voice of people listening like, "Ugh, I messed up my kids forever. Oh my goodness." No, nope, no one messed up their kids forever, right?

    19. RW

      No.

    20. BK

      Not a thing. So-

    21. RW

      Mm-mm

    22. BK

      ... I just know it's so th- it's so easy to hear ... ideas about our kids and go into, like, it's just because we care so much, so it's so easy-

    23. RW

      Yeah

    24. BK

      ... to go into shame mode.

  14. 30:32 – 33:02

    Repair: the parenting superpower after you mess up

    1. RW

      Oh, yeah. For sure. Well, also, I think I really like what you talk about when you talk about repair.

    2. BK

      Yes.

    3. RW

      Because nothing is an absolute. It's not over. It's not done. You always have a chance to go, "You know what? I thi-," and I do this a lot as a parent, "I was thinking about that conversation we had two nights ago, and I wanna go back. I don't, I don't think I said the right thing. And, you know, I'm, I'm just a human, too, and I think sometimes I think I'm saying the right thing, but I think what I wanna be clear about is I'm not upset at you. I was trying to get to the heart of this problem between us. Um, but tell me, you know-

    4. BK

      Yes

    5. RW

      ... have you had any more thoughts about it?"

    6. BK

      I mean, it's like everything to me is repair because to me it's these moments. I yelled at my kid, I said something I didn't wanna say, and then those moments can feel like our worst parenting moments. Like, like we'll think about them for weeks, and then we tell ourselves these stories. I'm a monster. I've messed up my kid forever. If anybody ever knew the type of parent I would, they would, you know, whatever, all this judgment. Like [laughs] and what I really like to share with parents, and it's not bullshit, it's completely true, is the moments after you mess up, which is human, Reese has done it, I've done it, we all do it, it, those are actually the moments you can, like, shine the most. That is, like, you're like on stage because there is nothing that is as positively impactful in any relationship as going back to a moment that felt bad and layering on connection and understanding. And because kids, when things feel bad, and they're confused by them, no one explains them, they tend to blame themselves for them, just because it's like the only thing they can do to try to, like, have some understanding.

    7. RW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. BK

      When you go back to repair, I always, like, picture, like, you literally, like, you remove, you, like, snatch it out of their body. Like, you snatch out the story that they're at fault, that they make bad things happen, that they're too much, a lot of the stories we've told ourselves, you know, for a while as adults. And, like, I, I really, I feel like a magician when I do it with my kids. Like, it's so powerful. And you can't repair if you don't rupture. Like, you can't get good at repair if you don't mess up. So when you mess up, it's just like you're already completing step one in a very important two-step process.

    9. RW

      Mm.

    10. BK

      And so, yes, like repair is, is everything. It's everything.

    11. RW

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      Did, um, did you, did your parents repair with you? Like, did you have that modeled for you?

  15. 33:02 – 35:50

    Intergenerational healing and accountability: kids don’t need to protect parents

    1. RW

      Um, I've had it modeled by my mother at this age.

    2. BK

      Hmm.

    3. RW

      It's actually really healing, too, because as you get older and you start to go, "Well, there's these parenting dynamics that didn't work in my childhood, and I'm gonna bring them up with my parents," to have a parent, my mother, saying, "You know what? I don't, I don't know if I handled that right. I'm sorry."

    4. BK

      Hmm.

    5. RW

      "I did the best I could"

    6. BK

      Yeah.

    7. RW

      Wow, that is enormously healing.

    8. BK

      It really is.

    9. RW

      My mother has said that to me. Yeah.

    10. BK

      Wow. Yeah.

    11. RW

      And, and, and it's, I have such compassion for people who, um, it, there's a, y- you know, the accountability.

    12. BK

      Yes.

    13. RW

      Right?

    14. BK

      Yeah.

    15. RW

      And I've had, I've said it to my own kids.

    16. BK

      Yes.

    17. RW

      "I know I've messed up, and I want you to know I don't expect you to think I'm a perfect parent. You're allowed to tell me what did or didn't work for you in retrospect. I am so here and available to hear that. Like-"

    18. BK

      Yes

    19. RW

      ... "you don't have to protect me from your thoughts or feelings about my parenting."

    20. BK

      Oh. Just you don't have to protect me from your thoughts and feelings about my parenting. That is, I, that is, I just wanna, that's really, really profound. [laughs] And I think that is such a gift to kids at any age. Because in a way, when they do share with you, "Hey, like, you know, when you were so hard on me on this, it felt bad," or, "When you used to leave me alone in your, my room instead of come," in a way, I, like, my image of it, 'cause at first it stings, 'cause it feels like they're saying, like, "You're a bad parent." They're not saying that, but it can feel like that. But my image of it, Reese, is, like, my kid is, like, opening up a new hook in them. Like, they're letting me get to know an experience they had or a part of them that I didn't know before. They're actually, like, it's like a bid for connection. They're letting me-

    21. RW

      Mm

    22. BK

      ... 'cause I'm sure when you were able to share things with your parent, and your mom hooked onto it, like she listened, uh, you can feel closer to someone after that, right? [laughs]

    23. RW

      Yeah, for sure.

    24. BK

      And-

    25. RW

      'Cause also, there's a validation piece.

    26. BK

      Yes. Right. You're like, "I wasn't making that up." Exactly. It's, that was, you know, and I, I, I don't anymore, but in my private practice, I, you know, worked with so many adults. And as they reflected on parts of their childhood, I, I mean, it's not one of them ever wished that their parents were perfect, that their parents didn't make mistakes. 100% of them yearned for repair, right? [laughs] Like, that, that's what was, that's what they felt was missing. They're like, "Yeah, like we kind of know as you get older my parents are human," right? But, uh, no one needs those moments not to have happened. You just need, like you said, right, that validation, that connection, just someone to listen. Not listen to try to prove you wrong. That's not listening.

    27. RW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. BK

      But, like, actually just listen to understand. So yes, repair is everything. [laughs]

  16. 35:50 – 47:01

    Working parent guilt, capability-building, and what Reese hopes Busy Betty gives families

    1. RW

      I think a lot, too, about being vulnerable with your kids, not having to be perfect, and I think that's probably changed for me. I think my, my first kid, I had, everything had to be perfect, and the outfit had to be perfect, and the first day of school had to look cute. And, and now I think I let go a lot of that, that need for perfection, I think. And also, um, the idea that I'm always doing everything right. Or the other thing I think moms get stuck in sometimes, and maybe I'm generalizing, but I hope maybe this resonates, that we're the only know- one that knows the right thing to do for ki- the kid. It gets a little, um- I had to learn to let go, 'cause I'm a working mom, and I had to learn that I had to reframe my thinking. Like, oh, no, they're not gonna be okay 'cause I'm not there. I'm not the one putting on the soccer cleats, and I'm not the one putting the bow in the hair, and I'm not the one doing the video camera. And I had to learn and kind of reframe it that, no, oh, my kids are learning to be adaptable to other parenting styles, and other people who have authority, who are older or younger or grew up in a different culture, or they're actually learning to be a person who gets their needs met with different people, and they're a person to- learns to speak up and self-advocate. And that moms who think, "I'm the only one who can do everything," it's actually... It can be, um... And I'm guilty of it, too. It can be harmful for kids.

    2. BK

      I- I was just talking about this exact thing with one of my friends, because I work a lot more than I used to. So my kids were not always used to me working, you know, full time, and I have been for the last couple years, and it's necessitated moments, like you're saying, of, like, I'm not at, you know, whatever the thing is. I didn't get to the basketball practice, the basketball game that time, or, um, I didn't go to the orthodontist appointment, right? And recently, I had a really powerful experience with my oldest, who, you know, I kind of checked in with him. He just started middle school. And I said, like, "Have you had any, have you had any tests?" You know, [laughs] like, I don't know what my friends are talking about.

    3. RW

      [laughs]

    4. BK

      They're like, you know. And he was like, "Yeah, I've had like three tests." And I was like, "Oh." And then he shared with me, you know, and how he had studied and done all these things, and I reflected, and I actually shared this with my mom recently. My mom was, like, always there, and, like, that sounds amazing, but there was a little bit of what you're saying. Like, I didn't realize till later that it took me a little longer to find my own capability, because I actually think we find capability when we, like, have a secure base, but we're actually in some moments of distance, and you're like, "Oh, look at me," like, "I figured this thing out." You know? Like, yeah, here I am. Um, and I was like-

    5. RW

      I learned how to hustle. [laughs]

    6. BK

      Literally, right? And, uh, and I said to my mom, with love, and she's so non-defensive. I was like, "I don't know if I ever took a test in my life that you didn't know about." That, like, you know, like, she was so always there, and I was always sharing, you know, and, and I felt, actually, like, I felt proud of myself. I was like, that, like, my son, and now he's older, like, he figured out how to, like, study and, and do all those things in that distance, right? Um, and it was just, it was such, like, a cycle-breaking difference, you know-

    7. RW

      Yeah

    8. BK

      ... for me. Mm.

    9. RW

      Yeah. I can't imagine if somebody, like, knew every test I took. [laughs]

    10. BK

      Right. Yeah.

    11. RW

      It'd be great, and also a lot.

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. RW

      A lot to manage. Like, it's having, like, a full-time manager standing over your shoulder all the time, going, "Did you do the work? Did you do the work? Did you do the work?" It's like, okay, no, I have to trust that they're learning study habits and good skills.

    14. BK

      Yeah, that trust again, right? And I think we give our kids so much, and again, this is so full circle. When we trust that they can cope with hard things, when we trust that they can bounce back from a hard moment, that we'll be there for them to help them through that hard moment, but we don't just have to take away the hard moment proactively, our kids benefit. They actually build their self-esteem by watching themselves kind of, like, go through that moment. Like we were saying, like, "Oh, look at me, I got through that," right? Like, they have to have that experience to have that self-belief.

    15. RW

      Yeah.

    16. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RW

      And skill stacking, going, "Oh, no, I'm actually good at that."

    18. BK

      Yeah.

    19. RW

      I remember having to be advocating for myself in school, and I think it's why I have great relationships with teachers. I learned that I had to learn how to talk to the teachers and have conversations with them, and then I got more engaged in talking to them, and because of, you know, the fact that my parents didn't intervene.

    20. BK

      Yeah. Yeah. You were just there, and, like, you had built up enough capability and confidence to trust yourself. It wasn't controlled for you. Right there again, is it, to trust that you could figure it out, and then you did, right? [laughs]

    21. RW

      Yeah. And know that I wanted to get the most out of my education for myself.

    22. BK

      Yeah.

    23. RW

      Not to please them.

    24. BK

      Yes. Yes.

    25. RW

      Literally, what was I interested in?

    26. BK

      Yes. So what do you, what do you hope with, with Betty? Like, what do you hope kids get from her, or what moments happen between parents and kids? I always think about that. There's all these amazing moments that happen between parents and kids because of a amazing children's book. [laughs]

    27. RW

      [laughs] I think a lot about people who, um, have kids, caregivers who have kids that are very high-spirited and high-energy and ask a million questions and go, go, go, go, go, go, go. First of all, it's for caregivers who need ideas about how to direct play. Like, don't do the play, but, like, set up the play.

    28. BK

      Yes.

    29. RW

      Um, today we're gonna play store. Tomorrow we're gonna play circus. That kind of thing I think is really helpful.

    30. BK

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 47:02

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