@TheOTButterfly on Parenting Neurodivergent Kids

1. 0:01 – 1:01

   Good Inside Membership: expert-guided parenting support platform

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:01

      Why is it so hard to find reliable answers to parenting questions? How is it in 2022 parents still search on Google for answers from strangers? Well, now there's a better way. Introducing the Good Inside Membership, an expert-guided, community-powered platform redefining modern parenting. In our library, you'll find hundreds of bite-sized videos, articles, scripts, and workshops tackling the trickiest parenting topics, and it doesn't stop here. We've created a private community guided by me, Dr. Becky, and coaches trained in the Good Inside parenting method. Here you can ask questions, connect with other parents, or attend a live event on a topic that matters to you. This is the parenting handbook that doesn't exist. This is parenting advice at your fingertips, where you need it, when you need it the most. This is Good Inside Membership. Hi, I'm Dr.

2. 1:01 – 3:49

   Meet Dr. Becky + why this episode focuses on neurodivergent kids

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01

      Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle, and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. I have Laura Petix on the podcast today, and I am so excited. I've received so many calls asking to have an episode focused on neurodivergent kids, and many of the parents who called in with those voicemails specifically asked me to have Laura on the pod. Well, here she is. Laura is known on Instagram as The OT Butterfly. She's a pediatric occupational therapist and a mom to a neurodivergent daughter. Now, not to worry if you don't know what the word neurodivergent means, or even if you're not exactly sure what occupational therapy means. Laura and I cover all of this in our conversation, and we give you the tools you can use in your home to identify sensory struggles and offer your child the help they need. So with all that in mind, let's jump in. Hi, Laura. Welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you here. I hear so many things about you all the time, so I know also that our listeners are very excited for you to be here.

   2. LPLaura Petix3:07

      Hi, Dr. Becky. Hi, everybody listening. I'm so thrilled to be here. I call on Dr. Becky a lot in our house, and I'm like, "Well, Dr. Becky says that we should be able to do this," and my husband knows Dr. Becky. So I'm very thrilled to be here, and he's proud of me for being here, so thank you again for this opportunity.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:24

      Ah, all good things. So you and I could talk for hours and hours, and I'm sure at some point we will have follow-up conversations, and there'll be so many more things to discuss. Today, I would love to begin by your introducing yourself to everybody listening, and just tell them who you are and the kind of things you kind of think about and find interesting.

3. 3:49 – 5:22

   Laura Petix’s OT lens: sensory processing, learning, and behavior

   1. LPLaura Petix3:49

      Sure. So my name is Laura Petix. I am a pediatric occupational therapist, and right now I'm in Southern California. I was practicing for a little bit up in the Bay Area, and I specialize in sensory integration, and I really, really focus most on how really sensory processing has an impact and a drive on learning and behavior. And I think any OT will tell you, you really can't take the OT out. I see the entire world through a sensory lens, through a behavioral lens, through... I just observe every single thing, and sometimes it's quite exhausting, but a lot of times it just makes me fall in love with being an OT even more. And especially having a daughter who is almost five now, seeing her grow up and develop and experiencing our own kind of hiccups along the road and being able to use my OT lens has been very helpful that way. But yeah, I, um, I have a husband and a four-and-a-half-year-old daughter. We're in Southern California. We are Disneyland addicts. We love going there, and there's so many sensory things to notice [laughs] at Disneyland. So yeah, that's where we're at.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:58

      Amazing. So can we start with just a basic definition of occupational therapy? 'Cause I think there are probably people hearing this saying, "Okay, I've heard that before. I've heard the acronym OT." But same thing for me, honestly. Like, it's just good to have a definition from an expert. So what-

   3. LPLaura Petix5:20

      Yeah

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy5:20

      ... is occupational therapy?

4. 5:22 – 7:41

   What occupational therapy actually is (and isn’t)

   1. LPLaura Petix5:22

      Yes, I love getting this question, and we've practiced this elevator speech so many times throughout our careers as OTs. We are so underkn- we, we're not known well enough yet. So occupational therapy, the word occupation, which is I think what throws people off the most, they assume occupation means job. "Oh, so you must help people get jobs or get back to their job." Some part of it, yes, but the, the way that the field was created in occupational therapy, occupation was meant to mean things that occupy your time, things that are-

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy5:51

      Hmm

   3. LPLaura Petix5:51

      ... meaningful for you, things that are purposeful for you. It actually got its roots in 1917 after the war, or like right around wartime, and with helping soldiers come back and rehabilitate and learn new vocational skills after the war. And then it also has a huge root in mental health and how crafts and meaningful occupations can help your recovery and learning new skills. But now, so throughout the years, occupational therapy, we help with kids from infancy all the way up to the end of life, basically getting people to be able to participate in things that are meaningful and purposeful to them. So in kids, it's play, it's learning, it's having relationships at home and in the community, and OTs are just really, really good at problem-solving. So we can really, really dig deep at a behavior or something that's happening to a child and de-Trying to pinpoint what exactly is the underlying cause or link for that behavior, and then how can we support that child by modifying the environment, by adapting tasks so that this child can be more successful. So sometimes it is providing accommodations, sometimes it's working on underlying skills. And in my specific setting, it's the sensory processing skills that a lot of children need help with that are contributing to this behavior that you're seeing out in the world.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:17

      Okay, sensory processing skills. Maybe there's children with, I don't know, like a sensory processing skill deficit or something like that.

   5. LPLaura Petix7:28

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:28

      Right? They haven't learned all those skills that they need, and then there's certain behaviors that might manifest as a result of those skills having kind of yet to be developed. Is that, is that right?

   7. LPLaura Petix7:40

      That's right.

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:40

      Okay.

5. 7:41 – 9:41

   Sensory processing explained: filtering input and survival-mode brains

   1. LPLaura Petix7:41

      Yeah, and so, so sensory processing skills are... Basically it's the precursor to developing gross motor skills-

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:48

      Hmm

   3. LPLaura Petix7:48

      ... fine motor skills, and higher level cognitive skills. So from like a very basic, basic, basic example.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:55

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LPLaura Petix7:56

      If we talk about, so right now we all are processing sensory input. Every single person's brain is taking in information from the environment and internally within our body. And right now, listeners and myself and Dr. Becky, we can tune out, our brain can automatically kind of filter out the sights, the sounds, the feeling. I can smell a little bit of my coffee over here. I can see the bright lights over to the side. You might be hearing the hum of your computer. And we know that's there, but our brain, like automatically filters it out for us and says-

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:30

      Hmm

   7. LPLaura Petix8:30

      ... "This conversation with Dr. Becky and what Laura is saying and her voice is important to me, and I'm gonna tune into that." And our brain allows us to do that. So people with a sensory processing challenge or sensory processing disorder, their brain doesn't always automatically do that for them, or their brain might interpret some of these external stimuli and things from the environment as dangerous to their body.

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy8:54

      Hmm.

   9. LPLaura Petix8:54

      And so obviously the parts of, there's parts of your brain that need to keep you alive, keep you protected, so then the brain goes into survival mode and might make me pay attention to a sound that it thinks is dangerous. Then that takes away from my ability to focus on Dr. Becky. Or if I heard an alarm going off, my brain would not automatically turn that off. It would say, "Hey, pay attention to that."

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:17

       Hmm.

   11. LPLaura Petix9:17

       "That could be dangerous." Then I might be distracted in this conversation. So the outward behavior would be, "Oh, Laura's not really paying attention to this conversation right now. She keeps looking around. She's not focused." That's the behavior, but what's driving that behavior could be sensory overload or difficulty filtering out some of the sensory information. And as you can imagine, in children, that's very complex.

6. 9:41 – 10:38

   Is sensory processing disorder a diagnosis? DSM, insurance, and real-world impact

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:41

      And, okay, two points of follow-up, and tell me again if I'm getting this right. Number one, sensory processing disorder is not its own diagnosis, and at the same time, it's probably part of so many different struggles that we see in our kids. Yes?

   2. LPLaura Petix9:58

      100%, yes. Yes, and that's, I think, the biggest kind of thing that's, that's holding us back as a profession, as OT, and being as accessible, I should say, to a lot of parents who need the support. But because there's still a lack of, I guess, credibility, I don't, uh, or s- because we don't have that code in the DSM, right?

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:19

      Hmm.

   4. LPLaura Petix10:19

      So the manual that provides these diagnoses, codes that insurance really likes to see in order to provide reimbursement for services, SPD is not yet a standalone disorder based on the DSM.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:31

      So I wanna play like a little game with you, but it's not gonna be that fun, okay? It might be fun.

   6. LPLaura Petix10:36

      [laughs]

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:36

      I don't know, okay? Game is like-

   8. LPLaura Petix10:38

      All right, let's do it

7. 10:38 – 15:10

   Homework battles through a sensory lens: movement needs, distraction, overwhelm

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:38

      ... game is an oversell, okay? I wanna say things that I hear from parents a lot in terms of them describing their kids' behavior, and I'd love to hear from your OT sensory perspective, like what might be going on that doesn't kind of immediately-

   2. LPLaura Petix10:54

      Yes

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:54

      ... meet the eye. Okay. I am telling my five-year-old, "Sit. You only have to write a few more letters for school. Sit. Write." And they are asking about the song playing, and they are looking at what my husband's cooking for dinner, and they are not listening and not focusing, and th- they are not being respectful. They are not listening, they are not focusing, they are not being respectful, and they're not doing the very simple thing that I know they can do.

   4. LPLaura Petix11:28

      Hmm. I love this example. Okay. So how I... So I take a behavior usually and I separate it in two categories, sensory-driven behaviors or not sensory-

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:38

      Hmm

   6. LPLaura Petix11:38

      ... driven behaviors. And for this topic, we're just going to, I'm just gonna brain dump all of the sensory related ways it could contribute. But please know, everyone listening, there could be a lot of other umbrella of things going on there.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:50

      Right.

   8. LPLaura Petix11:51

      Like mental health perspective, connecting to parents, all of those things. But let's say all of the sensory things that could be going on in this child. So you ask them to sit down at the table and finish writing. Maybe they have already been sitting for 15 minutes writing two or three sentences. So if their brain has a high threshold for vestibular input and movement-

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:11

      Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa

   10. LPLaura Petix12:12

       ... and their brain-

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:12

       You lost me at vestibular.

   12. LPLaura Petix12:14

       Yes. [laughs]

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:14

       I'm sorry.

   14. LPLaura Petix12:15

       Sorry.

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:15

       I'm sorry.

   16. LPLaura Petix12:15

       Sorry, sorry, sorry. Take it back.

   17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:17

       Okay.

   18. LPLaura Petix12:17

       Take it back.

   19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:17

       No.

   20. LPLaura Petix12:17

       Take it back.

   21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:17

       I like it. I love big words.

   22. LPLaura Petix12:19

       [laughs]

   23. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:19

       I just like to understand. [laughs] I love big words.

   24. LPLaura Petix12:21

       I get excited.

   25. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:22

       Yeah.

   26. LPLaura Petix12:22

       The vestibular system is housed in your inner ear, and this is what's responsible for telling your brain where your head and your body is in space.

   27. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:30

       Hmm.

   28. LPLaura Petix12:30

       This gets activated when your head is out of upright. If you're tilting to the side, if you're upside down, if you're moving, running through the kitchen, that's telling your brain that you are moving through space, and that's your vestibular system being activated. So we all have this inner need to have enough vestibular input throughout the day in order for us to feel calm and focused, what we call regulated-

   29. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:55

       Hmm

   30. LPLaura Petix12:56

       ... as OTs. And neurotypical people who have no sensory processing differences generally get enough of it throughout the day to be able to sit and focus. But there are some kids who have a high threshold, meaning they need more of it to notice it or to feel calm and regulated for it.
8. 15:10 – 19:22

   At-home sensory supports for learning: alternative seating, sound control, movement breaks

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:10

      So what's one example in that situation if a parent was thinking, "Okay, I'm going back to something we talk a lot about at Good Inside. My child's doing the best they can with the resources they have available in the moment. They're not trying to be disrespectful. They're not trying not to write. There's something happening." What is a sensory-oriented intervention that could help, that might not come to a parent's mind right away? 'Cause again, we're often not thinking this way.

   2. LPLaura Petix15:36

      The easiest way, the first thing I think of is what we always talk about, alternative seating.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:41

      Mm.

   4. LPLaura Petix15:41

      So they don't have to be sitting at a table to write.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:44

      Mm.

   6. LPLaura Petix15:45

      They can't... You can put a wiggle cushion, so they have these, like, inflatable disks that gives them some movement at their chair. You could even have... I have children, um, when I work in the clinic, have their paper. If they're just writing, like, one sentence, we will write up against the wall. Put the paper up against the wall-

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:01

      Mm

   8. LPLaura Petix16:01

      ... and write their sentence. And it actually helps a lot with letter formation and a lot of fine motor stuff if you're working on that as well.

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:08

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LPLaura Petix16:08

       You could have them lay on their tummy and write on, like, a binder on the floor. Just changing up the position, like, we don't have to have them sitting at a desk-

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:16

       Mm

   12. LPLaura Petix16:16

       ... would be one way to meet that need. In terms of the auditory stuff, then I would look at finding another area in the house, maybe blocking out that sounds, maybe giving them noise-canceling headphones-

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:27

       Mm

   14. LPLaura Petix16:27

       ... to help kind of mitigate those en- environmental cues that they're getting from the world. And then the last thing I would say is also providing a lot of intermittent movement breaks throughout the activity.

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:39

       Mm.

   16. LPLaura Petix16:39

       So great example, if you have to write, like, three, "You have three more sentences to write for this English worksheet that you have. I know it's really hard. How about after every sentence you write, we're gonna stand up and do 10 jumping jacks, or we're gonna stand up and have a song break, and we're gonna dance to Encanto" or whatever it is, some high-intensity thing that gives them the movement break they're seeking, gives them a time to connect with you, and there's less battle overall. And the one thing I like to remind parents is, they're like, "But I just want them to get their homework done."

   17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:08

       Mm.

   18. LPLaura Petix17:08

       "I don't wanna add an extra 10, 15 minutes of this circus act that I have to do, and put on a puppet show, and make it exciting." And, you know, I 100% hear you, and I, I feel like that on so many days where I just don't have that energy. But what I like to remind parents is if your child is having these, uh, struggles and having a hard time, and you're already going through that power struggle, you're already adding extra time anyway. This is the way to meet your child's needs and to take off a little bit of that stress from you. And overall, you're gonna spend the same amount of time. This is a little bit more beneficial to your child's sensory support and their needs.

   19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:45

       And I wanna give another extra plug for that, right, where I know often that extra five minutes I think pays you back, like, a million times over. Because if you think of this example, let's say it's a five-year-old writing letters. We think we wanna help them get to the end of that homework assignment, but really what's happening is they're learning, "How do I learn? How do I learn best? Is learning frustrating? Is learning something I can feel capable around?" And so if what they end up learning is, "Oh, I learn, I pause. I sometimes need to stand up. I sometimes need to take a break and move my body and come back." Well, let's fast-forward to when they're now in fourth grade. Obviously, we could also fast-forward to when they're 18 or 20 and still learning to some capacity. If they've taken in what they need to do to maintain engagement, then you're saving yourself a lot of time when they're in fourth grade and 18 in college from them calling you and saying, "Oh, I don't wanna do my work, Mom," or, "I don't wanna do this, Dad." And instead, they've internalized what they need to do for themselves to-

   20. LPLaura Petix18:53

       Mm-hmm

   21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:53

       ... continue to get their work done. So that long-term perspective for me, when I can access it, which definitely isn't all the time, but when I can, it makes me realize, oh, I'm not actually putting in extra time. I'm actually saving time. And I'm one for efficiency because parenting is so tiring. So then I can roll up my sleeve and put that song on and, like you said, do a movement break.

   22. LPLaura Petix19:19

       Same. I am 100% with you on that.

9. 19:22 – 22:24

   The birthday party problem: sensory overload mistaken for anxiety or “shyness”

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:22

      So here's another situation, because I wanna talk about sensory sensitivities and anxiety, right? So you're at a birthday party, and your child is with all of her friends. Like, you know your child loves these other kids, and this is an indoor gymnastics party, right? And it was like, "Everyone take off your shoes. Come on, you know, the mat. We're gonna do this trampoline thing. We're gonna do this." And your child is just clinging to you, and you're looking around and you're like, "I'm not crazy. I have the only child clinging. My child is old enough. I don't want my child to not be able to socialize for the rest of their life." [laughs] I'm laughing 'cause I know we, like, fast-forward these, like, huge truths about-

   2. LPLaura Petix20:01

      Yes

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:01

      ... our children. I do, too. Okay, what might be going on there from your perspective?

   4. LPLaura Petix20:06

      Yeah. Oh, birthday parties is one of my favorite environments to help parents really see how sensory impacts-

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:12

      Mm

   6. LPLaura Petix20:12

      ... behavior, because parents are not always in the classroom. But birthday parties, or even parks and playgrounds-

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:17

      Mm-hmm

   8. LPLaura Petix20:17

      ... give you more of a complex understanding of the social environment and how that can really, really impact your child's behavior. So birthday party. Already the idea of being at a birthday party with friends has that excitement level, but to a child with sensory processing challenges, that internal sensation of excitement can be a lot for them to process and already handle. So going into it, that just, like, buzzing excitement, coupled with that, the change in routine that you probably typically have for every weekend on Saturday, maybe you woke up early. Maybe you're wearing that really itchy dress that your mom s- like, really wanted you to wear because it was cute and it matched with all the friends, or there was a costume theme and everyone's wearing unicorn tights, and this is hard for you, so there's a clothing component. All of that not even in the environment yet of the birthday party, but, but consider how much this routine has changed for that child. And for sensory kids, changes in daily routine can definitely trigger or relate to dysregulation. Even leading up to that time before going in the jump house, they served pizza, a very common child's birthday party meal, and maybe that's a food that your child is still learning to eat, and they have a very limited food repertoire, so now there's this another unsafe thing. But so they've already come into it with their-

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:35

      Mm

   10. LPLaura Petix21:35

       ... sensory cup brimming to the top. And I like to talk about sensory sensitivities as having a small cup, and you can barely hold enough input in there, and it's already full to the top before even stepping into the trampoline room at the birthday party.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:49

       Mm.

   12. LPLaura Petix21:49

       And now the echoes from everybody laughing, the music, the conversation, plus, like, a bounce house with a... If you're a child with sensory sensitivities, it's full of, uh, of imposed sensory input. When I say imposed, meaning out of your control. Kids are bouncing. They might jump on you. There's the sounds. There's the smells of [laughs] people's feet with their socks off. There's a lot. I have a very vivid picture of this in my mind because that's a very common birthday party setting. And so, yeah, that's just a very quick snapshot, and I could probably say so many more things about it, but...

10. 22:24 – 25:30

    In-the-moment support at overwhelming events: privacy, cues, permission, and choice

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:24

       So you're at this birthday party. You see your child, and their sensory cup is overflowing, right? And I love that image, too. It makes me think about, you know, here at Good Inside, I think we think about that kind of frustration cup often also, right? Like, why is my child having a meltdown when I cut their pizza in half, you know, even though I thought they wanted it cut in half. Well, it's not just about the pizza. They were full of frustration. That was the thing that poured it over, so, so similar. My child's standing next to me. They are overloaded from a sensory perspective. They're also probably self-conscious and anxious. The kid knows that they're the only one. Maybe they know that their parent isn't thrilled with them in this situation. Like, step one from a parent, from your perspective, if they can ground themselves and access the part of them that, you know, wants to show up the way they want to, not just in a reactive state. So if that's possible, what would you whisper to a parent, you know, and have them maybe share with their child?

    2. LPLaura Petix23:23

       Yes. So what I... The first thing I would do is find a way to find some privacy where you can-

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:28

       Mm

    4. LPLaura Petix23:28

       ... speak to your child without this external stuff. Because I know if you talk there in front of other parents or other kids and you say, "Do you wanna go in that trampoline?" They might be pressured by what they see.

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:39

       Mm.

    6. LPLaura Petix23:39

       And not to mention, again, if this is a very auditory over-stimulating area, they might not be totally processing what you're saying, what you're asking. So see if they will come with you to a, a, like, a side or the corner, or a trick I always say is like, "Hey, can you help me get something out of the car? I think I forgot my water bottle" And just go for a little walk-

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:55

       Mm

    8. LPLaura Petix23:55

       ... like, outside of it.

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:56

       Mm.

    10. LPLaura Petix23:57

        And then, you know, our typical, like, get down on their level, use a regulating voice. Like, "Hey, I noticed you're really curious about the trampoline, and we've seen them jumping. How do you feel about it? Is that something you're interested in?" So kind of give them the opportunity, the space. The safe space is really important for them to be able to tell you, "Well, yeah, I really do want to, but it looks like it's... There's too many people." Or really understand. Give them that chance to explain what it is, or if you can tell, "I know that you get really overwhelmed with a lot of people. Why don't we go get a sip of water and then we can come back and look at it together? You can sit next to me. And if you're ready to go in, you can give me a little tap on my shoulder." You can come up with little cues that I like having parents do with their child, especially in these social situations. But the first step is to remove them from that-

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:44

        Mm

    12. LPLaura Petix24:44

        ... environment in a way that's not, like, forceful, right? But getting them, like, "Hey, let's go for a walk. Let's go get a sip of water. Can you help me make sure that our, our present is on the table right?" Like, just a very quick excuse-

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:56

        Mm

    14. LPLaura Petix24:56

        ... to remove them and have that conversation. And then see if you can troubleshoot ways of what's going on and how to help them if they do wanna participate. And sometimes I wanna tell parents, "Sometimes your child will not want to participate, and they're just looking for the permission that they don't have to." So that's something I've learned as a parent, and then coaching clients as well, that, wow, just giving my child the permission that they didn't have to go in that, like, was a wave of relief, and sometimes they ended up going in anyway. Otherwise, they were just happy to sit by, but they just needed the permission to not have to do something.

11. 25:30 – 28:18

    Signs it’s more than a ‘sensory quirk’: when to consider OT support

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy25:30

       I love that so much. So for parents listening, I have to imagine their wheels are spinning [laughs] and a bunch of them are thinking, "I wonder if my child- Now, through this perspective, like I wonder if they have some of these sensory sensitivities. What are some common signs?

    2. LPLaura Petix25:46

       Yeah. So I always give my list of sensory sensitivities twofold, because I always mention that everybody has sensory quirks, right? So we all have sensory inputs that we either love a lot of, more than other people, or are more sensitive to than a lot of people. Like I am very movement sensitive, I am auditory sensitive, but it didn't impact the way that I socialized, went to birthday parties, participated in school. Even now as a mom, I still h- I'm more irritable about certain sounds. But it's not something that like is more like, I should say, quote, clinical or needs professional support. I'm able to manage it.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy26:20

       Mm.

    4. LPLaura Petix26:20

       So I like-

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy26:21

       Mm

    6. LPLaura Petix26:21

       ... to throw that out there. You might have a child who does cover their ears when they're singing the birthday song, but that might be their only thing, right? A sensory quirk. But when I s- talk to parents about, "You know, it might be time to seek support from an OT for your child's sensory activities," I look at if they are sensitive to things like clothes. So a lot of kids complain about tags, which is, a lot of kids do, but then some kids are very limited, like will only wear dresses, or won't wear underwear at all. Or won't wear closed-toed shoes even if it's like a -10 snow storm, um, because their skin is so sensitive. Um, we have a lot of kids who are auditory sensitive to loud sounds, but also just like competing sounds in an environment, like restaurant setting-

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy27:06

       Mm

    8. LPLaura Petix27:06

       ... or a birthday party, or even the classroom. We have a lot of-

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy27:09

       Mm

    10. LPLaura Petix27:09

        ... kids who are sensitive to, um, grooming activities. Brushing hair, brushing teeth, taking a bath, washing your hair, all of those things. Picky eating is a big one, too. So all of these signs can contribute to, to what I see as a sensory sensitive child. And I always say, this part has to be met for me to really say like, "Maybe you should seek support." And if it's impacting them like to a point where it's either daily or just so much affecting your parents, as well as the child's quality of life, so maybe like their sensory sensitivities are so bad we can't ever go to a restaurant. Like it stops us from there. We're not going to play dates. They're leaving school early every day because there's a huge meltdown. Like it has to be more impactful on a daily level-

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy27:54

        Mm

    12. LPLaura Petix27:54

        ... or super intense. And also, I would say, typically, there's extra like emotional regulation challenges in these kids. So meltdowns, challenge with sleeping. So it's really, really these signs, these outward signs and behaviors of avoiding things, um, for sensory sensitive kids, and also some extra like really tricky emotional stuff to deal with, because there is such a, an overlap there.

12. 28:18 – 30:10

    Neurodiversity vs neurodivergent: clear definitions and sensory links

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:18

       And what is the relationship, if any, between sensory sensitivity and this term neurodiverse, neurodivergent?

    2. LPLaura Petix28:28

       Yes. So the way I describe it is all humans, we are all considered a neurodiverse species. So that's a common misconception. I hear neurodiverse being, um, used interchangeably with neurodivergent. But from what-

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:41

       Mm

    4. LPLaura Petix28:41

       ... I've studied and what I've learned from the autistic community, from the neurodivergent community, so as a human species, we're neurodiverse, meaning our neurons, our brain, our wiring-

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:51

       Mm

    6. LPLaura Petix28:51

       ... is all diverse. We all are different. We all have different brains. We are neurodiverse.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:55

       Yeah.

    8. LPLaura Petix28:55

       So that is neurodiversity as a whole. Every brain is different. Uh, there is more of a common pattern of brain behavior and brain wiring in the way that we process the world, and the way that we communicate and learn. There's a more common pattern that we consider more neurotypical, that most of us fit some sort of pattern, where it's a little bit more predictable and things go a certain way. There's an alternate even more neurodiverse subset of people where their brain patterns and their brain wiring, and the way they process the world, the way they learn, the way they behave, the way they communicate, diverges even more than from the neurotypical brain. And even the way that those brains diverge also may fit a certain pattern, but it might be related to-

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:39

       Mm

    10. LPLaura Petix29:40

        ... um, a sensory sensitive profile. It might be related to autism. It might be related to ADHD.

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:45

        Mm.

    12. LPLaura Petix29:45

        So there doesn't, it doesn't always go hand-in-hand with a specific diagnosis, but their brain is neurodivergent in the sense that it is not considered neurotypical. It is a little bit more different-

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:56

        Mm-hmm

    14. LPLaura Petix29:56

        ... than how brains are different in general. And so sensory sensitive brain processes some sensory inputs a little bit more intensely, and might label it as more dangerous than a neurotypical brain would.

13. 30:10 – 33:08

    What happens in OT: top-down accommodations + bottom-up sensory integration

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy30:10

       And how does OT help some of these struggles, right? So kids with sensory processing struggles, or kids who do have sensory sensitivity, if you're a parent and you're thinking like, "What would happen in an OT office?" Like I don't actually understand. Okay, yeah, my child does have a really intense reaction to loud sounds. Like that is definitely true. My child gets really distracted when there are multiple sounds in a room, different than my other kids. What would happen, uh, with an OT?

    2. LPLaura Petix30:37

       Yes. So OTs, like many other professions, but OTs have two approaches to work with children. So there's the bottom-up approach, and there's a top-down approaches. And we usually do like a mix of both. Bottom-up approach is just means that you're working on those underlying sensory foundations that are impacting your child's behavior. So again, let's take the behavior of, let's say, like clothing sensitivity, 'cause that's one that I work on a lot. They're sensitive to clothes, they're not... They're wearing like three things. They won't wear underwear. Like this happened. So top-down approach would be OTs working on finding sensory-friendly clothing, helping the child change their mindset-

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:15

       Mm

    4. LPLaura Petix31:15

       ... about clothes. Helping the child come up with-

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:17

       Mm

    6. LPLaura Petix31:17

       ... fun, playful challenges to practice clothing in a safe way. Helping the child rate their experience with clothing on a comfort level to make that more objective for them. That would be like top-down approaches. That's still very helpful for the child. There's bottom-up approaches that work on the tactile system, which is the touch system, which is all on your skin, and is what's r- over-responding to some of the way that the garters fit, or the seams in the socks. So they have a very over-responsive or sensitive- ... touch system. So a bottom-up approach for an OT would, would be working on that system by finding ways to provide touch input, um, in a sensory gym, in a sensory integration. So a lot of times parents will look into a sensory clinic, an OT clinic, and your kid is doing obstacle courses and running and jumping and, like, rolling around, and they're like, "I'm paying for this? Like, what are you doing with my child? I could do this at the park." But what you're not seeing is OTs create, um, a lot of what we call just right challenge environments to target those underlying sensory systems in your child to help your child create positive experiences, successful experiences, so they can master those experiences, and their brain is starting to build pathways towards regulation while having that sensory input so that it can hopefully have more efficient pathways of regulation versus right now that brain might have a shortcut pathway to dysregulation or getting upset or having meltdowns because that's all they know. So OTs really provide this integrated approach and customized experience for your child that meets them where they're at so they can feel successful, and their brain is starting to have more experiences of regulation with that input.

14. 33:08 – 46:09

    Three parent tips + episode takeaways: believe, prepare, practice; observe, consider sensory, meet them where they are

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy33:08

       So helpful. So I'm sure this is an unfair question, okay? But if you kind of could give parents, like, three of your top tips, right? And I know from talking to you here that I wanna hear all of your tips, but if we kind of focus on three, like, what would you, what would you tell parents?

    2. LPLaura Petix33:27

       Yes. So the f- the first tip I, I tell parents, if you have a child who has sensory sensitivities, they're covering their ears when you talk, or they, like, swear that their sock has a seam even though you bought the seamless socks and they swear they can still feel it.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy33:41

       [laughs]

    4. LPLaura Petix33:41

       The first tip is to believe them. Believe- I always say believe what they perceive. This is their sensory perception. This is how their brain is interpreting it. I know it's really, really hard, but this goes in hands with validating. It's not just validating their feeling, it's validating their experience. They think those seams are like nails to their toes, so that is hard. So that first step will already give you buy-in and already bring you more into, like, a supportive role with your child. So that's the number one step, is believing them. Believe what they perceive. The second step is to, once you identify and you can know your child's sensory triggers, um, from a sensory sensitive perspective, try your best to prepare them and let them know what's coming up. And my example for this is for, like, blenders or flushing toilets or a lot of things in the environment that you can predict and know, "I'm gonna push start in three, two, one, go." So they have time to cover their ears. They have time to protect their body. Um, but preparing them also goes with, um, letting them know what to expect at the birthday party. "Hey, when we go to the birthday party, we're gonna see a lot of kids jumping on a trampoline. I know that the sounds and a lot of people can overwhelm you, so what should we do? What, what code do you wanna give me when you need a break?" So preparing them also includes preparing them with the tools ahead of time and being okay with the... And giving them permission that they don't have to do what the other kids are doing, being okay with giving them that support and those accommodations. And then my third tip is, especially for things that are daily and, like, non-negotiables, like grooming tasks, like brushing teeth and putting clothes on and brushing hair, is try to practice them outside of those actual times. So s- a lot of times we only do it, like, oh, my, my child, like, is, it's so hard when I cut their nails, so you only do it, like, the mi- the bare minimum [laughs] that you have to do it. And you never... So every time your child sees those nail clippers and you talk about nail clipping and you do it is in those moments of stress. So you need to actually, I call it, like, poking the bear or, like, try to find ways to play with it, to talk about it, and there's... It sounds weird. How are you gonna play with nail clippers? I have a lot of creative ways to make cutting nails, like, a more fun and, like, practice through play type scenario that you need to do outside of the actual moments that they're experiencing it, so you could have time and opportunities to build up the positive associations with these things. So, so the end message is don't completely avoid the task that they're afraid of, but also don't completely flood them with it. You need to meet them where they're at and practice things through play.

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:20

       And this, I think, will feel so in line for listeners with so much of what we talk about from more of a psychological or emotional perspective, right? Believing kids is huge. The idea you're the only one in your body, you're the only one who can know what you're feeling, right? And I often think, too, with feelings, it's the same thing from anything we're taking in from a sensory perspective, is we can only learn to manage what we allow inside our body. And if so, the message is over and over, "No, you're not feeling it. You're not feeling that, right. No, it's not a big deal," well, the feeling or the sensation wins, and now I just don't have any skills. So we wanna help our kids build skills, and that starts by believing-

    6. LPLaura Petix37:04

       Mm-hmm

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:04

       ... them. And then the other two elements really are, I call it, like, emotionally vaccinating, right? Emotional vaccination.

    8. LPLaura Petix37:13

       Yeah.

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:13

       Like, let someone know what's coming so they can build those antibodies.

    10. LPLaura Petix37:16

        I love that.

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:16

        Right? And same thing for senses and exposure. Like, practice-

    12. LPLaura Petix37:21

        Mm-hmm

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:21

        ... also, right? And I love that image. If everyone right now almost puts up their two hands so they're slightly apart, and then we look at kind of avoidance on one end and flooding-

    14. LPLaura Petix37:32

        Mm-hmm

    15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:32

        ... on another, right? And then there's als- a lot of space in between. We wanna be in the in between, right? We don't want to avoid all of the things that are uncomfortable for our kids. That's sending the message of, "I am also as scared of those things as you are." And then a kid is like, "Oh, well, now that thing is even scarier because my sturdy leader [laughs] is also wanting to avoid that." And on the other side, flooding a child and what that does to their nervous system, that also is a situation that is not conducive with learning. And I think that stuff in between, I think maybe a parent listening is thinking, "Okay, well, what's the in between? What's exactly the in between?" Trust yourself. Trust yourself. You know your kid. You know the situation, right? The in-between with different, let's say, noises is not going to be, "Okay, here's the blender and the vacuum, and I found a fire siren, and I'm gonna put them all on [laughs] right now." No. Having silence all the time, no. It might be preparing for a sound and turning it on, saying, "Oh, let's turn up the volume a little bit. Oh, let's turn it up a little bit more." That might be something where I'm exposing safely, and I'm kind of building my child's window of tolerance.

    16. LPLaura Petix38:49

        Yep.

    17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy38:50

        How did I do, Laura?

    18. LPLaura Petix38:51

        Yes, that's great. That's exactly... I always am trying to provide parents with how can we get your child to continue to participate in this scary environment-

    19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy38:59

        Mm

    20. LPLaura Petix39:00

        ... overwhelming environment, and what tools can we provide them to support them already where they're at? So sometimes it is noise-canceling headphones.

    21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:07

        Mm-hmm.

    22. LPLaura Petix39:07

        And after listening to autistic voices and adults who have sensory processing disorder, a lot of them do still rely on the noise-canceling headphones. But guess what? That gives them so much more cognitive space and energy to actually-

    23. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:20

        Mm

    24. LPLaura Petix39:20

        ... participate in things versus completely just stay home. And, um, yeah, so that, that's a great example. And same thing, mess, um, tolerating messy play. Like, okay, you wanna really do this painting activity. Your friends are using their hands. You want to use... You're not ready to use your hands yet, but you also don't wanna use a paintbrush. Can we use, like, a cotton swab, cotton ball so you're, you're physically closer to touching the paint but not quite touching the paint yet 'cause you're not ready. But this is way better than you just running away from the table and then not playing with your friends or participating in the art class or doing the things that are also contributing to other parts of your development that I need you to be part of.

    25. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:56

        Yes. So toward the end of an episode, I love to kind of bring things together. We talked about so many different things, and I'd love to co-create it with you to give parents three kind of main takeaways. And then after that, I'll ask you to tell everyone a little bit more about where they can find you and learn so much more from you.

    26. LPLaura Petix40:12

        Sure.

    27. BKDr. Becky Kennedy40:12

        So let's come up live-

    28. LPLaura Petix40:15

        Okay

    29. BKDr. Becky Kennedy40:15

        ... with the three takeaways. I'm happy for you to take one and three, and I'll jump in with, with number two.

    30. LPLaura Petix40:19

        Okay.

Episode duration: 46:14