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Good Inside with Dr. BeckyGood Inside with Dr. Becky

When You Stop Explaining Yourself, Everything CHANGES | Dr. Becky and Dr. Sasha Hamdani

Dr. Sasha Hamdani walked off a TEDx stage, found her husband in the lobby, and by the time he said "I guess I was just nervous for you," she'd already decided her medical career was over.

Dr. Becky KennedyhostDr. Sasha Hamdaniguest
Nov 3, 202649mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:19

    Intro: when rejection hits harder

    1. BK

      There are some people who are more sensitive to rejection than others. And please, if that's you, keep listening, 'cause I actually think you're gonna find this episode so validating. I get it. You just heard me say that and you think, "Oh, my goodness. Does Dr. Becky know who I am? Oh, my goodness. Is that a bad thing?" And this is the exact process so many of us go through, and it happens all the time. As adults, maybe there's a group text and we ask people if they wanna make a plan on a certain day and nobody responds for two hours, and in those two hours we made up a whole story about how they're all side texting and they don't even wanna be friends with me. And maybe you see this with your kid. Maybe your kid hears a tiny shift in your voice and they tell you, "You're yelling at me. You wish I wasn't even your kid." And you think, "How did we get there?" My guest today is Dr. Sasha Hamdani. She's a psychiatrist specializing in ADHD and RSD, rejection sensitivity dysphoria. And I promise you, in this conversation, you're going to have so many of those moments of, "Oh, my goodness. I feel like I make sense. My k- it makes sense. All the dots are connecting." And in understanding this in a new way, you're also gonna have new ways to intervene. It's gonna feel better for everyone. So let's jump in.

  2. 1:19 – 6:09

    The TEDx lobby spiral

    1. BK

      So Sasha, you gave a TEDx talk-

    2. SH

      Mm-hmm

    3. BK

      ... on attention and focus. You're calm and composed. You walk off stage seeming calm, get to the lobby. You tell your own story from there.

    4. SH

      [laughs]

    5. BK

      It's your story.

    6. SH

      I got to the lobby, and I had agreed ahead of time that I was gonna meet my husband in the lobby because he wasn't a- able to come backstage. And just for like a little bit of context, I give this TED Talk. Halfway through the TED Talk, I kind of trip [laughs] like mid-TED Talk, and I don't really remember much of what happened after that. I know I got through it, but like I don't-

    7. BK

      Yeah

    8. SH

      ... so I was already, "Ah." And then I get off stage, g- like take off my mic, go find him in the lobby. G- like he gives me a big hug. He's sweating, and I'm like, "Okay, why are you sweating?" And he's like, "Guess I was just nervous for you." And I was like, "Okay, that's it. That's enough." That was a horrible response. And so [laughs] then, then my brain started spinning out and I was like, "He was nervous because he thought it was bad. He thought I did a bad job. That trip was so embarrassing. Like my- uh, now I'm gonna have no credibility in the medical field." Like, I just spun out.

    9. BK

      Okay, if I'm in the lobby and I don't know you or your husband, but I'm just close enough to notice what's happening, what do I see just on the surface?

    10. SH

      You would see a sweaty man-

    11. BK

      Yep

    12. SH

      ... [laughs] embracing his panicked wife-

    13. BK

      Mm-hmm

    14. SH

      ... and his wife, for seemingly no reason, being very angry with him and confrontational.

    15. BK

      Hmm.

    16. SH

      And scene. [laughs]

    17. BK

      A- yeah, I'm just thinking if I pause the moment, like, wow, that seems like a lovely supportive husband.

    18. SH

      Yes.

    19. BK

      And this seems like someone who just went through something where her nervous system is on high alert and she's coming down, and each person is kind of going through something reasonable.

    20. SH

      Yeah.

    21. BK

      But something happens in the combination, and you started it, but the story in your head fast-forwards so far beyond the moment. Is that right?

    22. SH

      Within minutes. Within like one minute-

    23. BK

      Yeah

    24. SH

      ... I had convinced myself that I was just a laughing stock and I wouldn't be a doctor much longer.

    25. BK

      And, and just worth mentioning, this disaster talk has like over 2 million views.

    26. SH

      [laughs]

    27. BK

      Just, just worth mentioning. I don't wanna... I actually don't wanna say that to invalidate your experience-

    28. SH

      Yeah

    29. BK

      ... what happens. It just has to be said, so it just has to be. It's just another piece of data.

    30. SH

      Yeah.

  3. 6:09 – 7:16

    What is Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD)?

    1. SH

      it's, it's, it's a mouthful.

    2. BK

      RSD, it's just, it's a lot.

    3. SH

      Yeah, I know.

    4. BK

      A lot. Okay. Um, what is that?

    5. SH

      Yeah. So this is this extremely robust, emotional, sometimes physical, but mostly emotional response to rejection or criticism. It's literally your nervous system is having this gigantic cascade of alarm chemicals-

    6. BK

      Mm-hmm

    7. SH

      ... because of this real or even perceived-

    8. BK

      Mm-hmm

    9. SH

      ... threat of rejection or criticism.

    10. BK

      And it, it's interesting, even the perceived one, what we're saying in your experience, I know this is true for me too, and I have a kid, definitely has a lot of this, these deeply feeling kids that I talk about.

    11. SH

      Yes.

    12. BK

      What's real probably, I don't know if we can measure it, is how real their fear of failure is inside of them.

    13. SH

      Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    14. BK

      And so even if it's not real, th- that, I think we forget, that's real.

    15. SH

      Yes.

    16. BK

      That's, like, running as a track in their mind-

    17. SH

      Yes

    18. BK

      ... in their body. Okay, but we're gonna get a little nerdy. I'm gonna mention some other words that are complicated, some other acronyms, you know.

    19. SH

      Yeah.

    20. BK

      ADHD, dopamine irregularities, an overactive amygdala. Just nerd out and explain

  4. 7:16 – 9:06

    ADHD as a regulation disorder

    1. BK

      all this and how it comes together.

    2. SH

      I love. Love, love, love. So basically, ADHD stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and I hate the name. I think it's stupid. It has ... I don't feel like it correctly encapsulates most of the population that lives within that diagnosis. [laughs]

    3. BK

      Hmm.

    4. SH

      I feel like really when you look at ADHD, what you should be looking at is that this at its base is a regulation disorder. It is something that not only is it attention, but you also have to look at energy and motivation and emotions when you look at all of this because when you look at it comprehensively, then you're-

    5. BK

      Yeah

    6. SH

      ... able to actually get your arms around it so that you can actually treat it and, you know, obviously diagnose it first, treat it, and figure out what to do with it.

    7. BK

      Yeah.

    8. SH

      So ADHD, at its base being a regulation disorder, you think about what's causing this regulation disorder, and it is a neurodevelopmental condition. It's something that you are born with, and that as your brain grows and develops, uh, we've found that, and obviously it's more complicated than this, but one of the greatest regulators in the brain is dopamine, and dopamine is in charge of motivation and alertness and reward. And all of these different functions in the brain that are all tied together to help you achieve goals, executive function tasks, really utilize and lean on that dopamine-

    9. BK

      Mm-hmm

    10. SH

      ... to let those things happen. So when you are, m- you know, getting diagnosed or being treated with, uh, for ADHD, really what you're doing is you're hoping to regulate those pathways.

    11. BK

      Hmm. And how do those come together to explain why those kids have that more, you know, more of that sensitivity

  5. 9:06 – 10:31

    The amygdala, the prefrontal cortex, and big feelings

    1. BK

      to rejection?

    2. SH

      I love this question. [laughs]

    3. BK

      I just wanted to throw you a little softball.

    4. SH

      I love it. Well, I think, I think in order to understand that, it ... So a lot of RSD, RSD was originally coined, um, and, and discovered, I would say, um, by Dr. William Dodson, who wrote the forward of my book. Um, he, I know, he's so nice. Um, but he, he discovered this within the ADHD population. Um, and the, these were people that felt things quickly and deeply-

    5. BK

      Yes

    6. SH

      ... and for a long time. And when he was looking at that population, and when we do look at these highly emotionally sensitive people, we look at two big areas of the brain, and the first one is looking at the amygdala, that emotional threat detector, this, this little almond-shaped structure in your brain, and that is what tells your brain, "Is this dangerous? Is this not? Is this threatening? Is this not?" And that is hyperactive. And then you look at the f- prefrontal cortex directly under your forehead. That is in charge of judgment and decision-making and processing, and it's the most logical part of your brain. And then that is under-responsive. So now you have this hyper-responsive emotional center and this under-responsive logical center. And so when you feel these big, heavy, scary feelings, it's hard to logic and rationalize your way out of them.

  6. 10:31 – 12:24

    "Dramatic" or deeply feeling?

    1. BK

      Hmm. And when you talk to parents-

    2. SH

      Mm-hmm

    3. BK

      ... what do they see on the surface? 'Cause this is not the, this is not the way it looks. What, what does this look like-

    4. SH

      No

    5. BK

      ... in practicality?

    6. SH

      So I think when you look at it without that lens, without that-

    7. BK

      Yes

    8. SH

      ... understanding of this is neurobiological, this is something that's happening in their brain, there is this dysregulation that is happening truly from a neurobiological standpoint, you can see this reaction that went from zero to 60 that maybe was completely out of proportion to the trigger. Like, it ... This wasn't ... What I, coming from the standpoint, 'cause write what you know, [laughs] I, you know, I am coming from this from both being a provider and a psychiatrist, but also being a patient, be- having ADHD and experiencing RSD. So that lens and that viewpoint, I have gone through these experiences, and I have been told, you know, "You're being too sensitive."

    9. BK

      Hmm.

    10. SH

      "This isn't that big of a deal. You should get over it. Just calm down." But in that moment, I can tell you that my entire brain and body are consumed with this big emotion that-

    11. BK

      Yes

    12. SH

      ... I don't know how to navigate through.

    13. BK

      Yeah, I think that's really, really important because I think there's so much overlap here.

    14. SH

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      Again, it's just about having labels and frameworks that help you help your kid or yourself, right?

    16. SH

      Totally.

    17. BK

      So these deeply feeling kids, they're often labeled drama- drama queens. Drama queen, right?

    18. SH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. BK

      Because, you know, they, they notice more in their environment.

    20. SH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. BK

      More comes into their body.

    22. SH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BK

      They feel it more deeply. They reach that bucket being full. You know, like you said, right, they're- ... regulation isn't as developed. So that-

    24. SH

      No

    25. BK

      ... combination means more comes in, more flows out, more often, for longer, more intensely, all of it. And for an adult who's just trying to get through their day.

    26. SH

      I know.

    27. BK

      Right? And like, what

  7. 12:24 – 14:09

    Why sensitivity is a strength

    1. BK

      is this, right? And at the same time, those kids, they don't know yet how to harness something really powerful in them.

    2. SH

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      But they have something really powerful in the way they experience the world.

    4. SH

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      Right? Talk about that a little bit.

    6. SH

      So I always tell people, because I, I think this conversation generally starts with the negatives, right?

    7. BK

      Yes.

    8. SH

      You know? That's, that's just how it's broached. But I tell people, "I don't want to be less sensitive. I think my sensitivity is beautiful. I got it from my dad." I, like I really enjoy that, so I don't want to be less sensitive. I want to be more in control.

    9. BK

      Ugh.

    10. SH

      Yeah.

    11. BK

      I don't want to be less sensitive. I want to be more in control. I want the sensitivity to be a very important part of me, but not take over my driver's seat.

    12. SH

      Yes.

    13. BK

      But it's a, it's a really important passenger.

    14. SH

      It's a, it's a vital passenger.

    15. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SH

      Because I think that it, it locks you in to this incredible well of empathy. It helps you with creativity. If you feel things deeply, you can express things deeply. I think it makes you just-

    17. BK

      Yeah

    18. SH

      ... have the capacity to be more authentic, which is just a beau- I, I feel like the people that you, that feel things deeply, I find them very magnetic. Like, I love that.

    19. BK

      There's so many different things to anchor to. It's-

    20. SH

      So, yes

    21. BK

      ... right? Like you can throw out a line and there's so many anchors, that's right? There's a lot to them.

    22. SH

      It's wo- it's wonderful, and it feels like a very safe place for you to be able to be authentic. So I think that there's so many incredible things.

    23. BK

      Yeah.

    24. SH

      And I think that sensitivity has made me a better parent and a better physician, a better partner, a better person. So I, I, I love that part. It, it was just

  8. 14:09 – 16:10

    What RSD looks like in kids

    1. SH

      navigating it.

    2. BK

      Do you have a kid who has this type of sensitivity as well?

    3. SH

      I have two. [laughs]

    4. BK

      Two. So give me an example, just to bring to life, and I'll give an example from my home too, this, this rejection sensitivity. Like any- anything really specific that you know, "Oh, that's where, that's where it comes alive."

    5. SH

      In myself or in my kids?

    6. BK

      In your kid.

    7. SH

      In my kids. So it's interesting because I have a boy and I have a girl, and I think they present a little bit differently.

    8. BK

      Ooh, tell.

    9. SH

      Um, and so, you know, when my boy, who's the younger one, and he is just a soft, sweet soul, but when he gets ... He's so sensitive to tone.

    10. BK

      Mm.

    11. SH

      So tone and like even if, you know, you're, you're ... And I was so guilty of this, but you know, I'm working on the computer and I'm fielding calls and I'm responding to patient messages and he's trying to talk to me and I, you know, you g- you're short with them. "What?" You know, the, that tone, he would immediately hear the tone and like just whatever he was holding in his hands, it could be a full glass of milk, he would drop, let go of in the moment, and run off and start crying.

    12. BK

      Mm.

    13. SH

      And it was just like you're looking at this response and like it took us a second to figure out like, w- what, what brought that on? This is so robust. And then my girl is actually a little bit, um, she's a teeny bit older. She's a year and a half older, and when she feels it, if we give our son a compliment or we give a peer a compliment, "Am, am I not good enough? Am I-"

    14. BK

      Such a good example.

    15. SH

      Yeah. "Uh, w- what, what about me?"

    16. BK

      Yeah.

    17. SH

      "I, I just don't want to do it anymore then. He's so good at it, I don't want to play basketball."

    18. BK

      So actually, I wanna, I wanna ... This is, I think, and I just like actually really want to talk, I, I just got activated. I'm like, "I wanna talk this out with you-"

    19. SH

      [laughs]

    20. BK

      "... 'cause this is a good example."

    21. SH

      Yeah.

    22. BK

      Let's say someone listening is thinking, "Oh my ... That happens with my daughter, my son," whichever one it is. It's like a positive

  9. 16:10 – 20:03

    Avoid the trigger, or help them through it?

    1. BK

      comment about a sibling-

    2. SH

      Yeah

    3. BK

      ... sends them into this spiral of like, "Oh, oh, so you, so you just wish you had him." And you're like, "I'm sorry, what? Like k- I just, I just said I liked his drawing. This is ... I said I liked his drawing." Do you tell the parent, "Try not to make so many comments about your other kid in front of your daughter because you know she has that sensitivity?" Or is it, "You need to know she has that sensitivity. This is kind of the world she lives in, and here, here's how you can respond when she has that reaction"? Like, are we then ... Because if we know, if someone says, "My kid had a, is like this," do I try to avoid situations, or is there a different approach you recommend?

    4. SH

      So for me, I feel like what we've done in our house and how we've kind of navigated is because the end, end game is we want to help raise a resilient kid, right?

    5. BK

      Yeah.

    6. SH

      So if we're constantly avoiding situations where she might be activated in those situations or might feel strongly and might, um, feel threatened in that moment, I feel like I'm doing her a disservice because I want her to experience those things, but I want her to have that safe ground to navigate those in real time.

    7. BK

      Mm.

    8. SH

      So when this last ha- This literally happened this week that this was happening.

    9. BK

      Yeah.

    10. SH

      And I, I, she responded really quickly to that, and then left. "I don't want to play basketball anymore," went inside the house. So I went inside. You know, I gave her a couple minutes. I went inside because, you know, I was like, "Okay, maybe if I give her a little bit of time, delay that response-"

    11. BK

      Yes

    12. SH

      ... let that amygdala stop firing as much, let her calm down a little bit, I'm gonna come back in." I came back in and all I did is I started the conversation with a compliment about her. Like, "You know what I actually noticed?" And, and I try to phrase it in kind of like a non-threatening, because she's also smart. Like she'll pick up and she'll be like, "I know what you're doing." [laughs]

    13. BK

      100%.

    14. SH

      What I said to her is I You know what was actually really smart? There's like this backboard part of our hoop that just keeps randomly falling off 'cause we don't know how to assemble anything. She found a way to move that and prop it in between our recycling and our trash can so it was out of the way. I was like, "You know what? That was actually so smart that you did that because I constantly trip over that and that's a perfect place for it." And so then it kind of like, oh, we're not talking about [laughs] what's happening.

    15. BK

      Yeah.

    16. SH

      And this seems unrelated. And then we kinda ease into, "Okay, well, you know, um, I notice that you really enjoy playing basketball. What happened? Why did you go inside?" And then she's like, "Well, I thought that, you know, you felt like Vince was a better player and you didn't want me to play anymore and I'm not gonna be as good as him." And so then I was like, "Oh, okay, well, you know, I was complimenting Vince because he did something good just like I kinda complimented you on this thing. I call it as I see it. But you know what I did notice? I noticed that you are, every time you try you get a little bit better. And so if you want to keep practicing-

    17. BK

      Yeah

    18. SH

      ... and doing that, I'll help you. Do you wanna go out and play another game?"

    19. BK

      Mm.

    20. SH

      And so then we went back outside.

    21. BK

      So beautiful. Yeah.

    22. SH

      And so it was, it was just an exercise in, I think, rather than avoiding the situation, if you understand that's the lens that she's seeing the world through, and then help her in that moment deescalate and give her free rein to kind of talk about it without kinda shaming her or cause, of forcing her to shut it down.

    23. BK

      Yeah.

    24. SH

      Like, it's not that big of a deal.

    25. BK

      Yeah.

    26. SH

      Like move on. It's not ... B- 'cause it was a big deal for her.

    27. BK

      Yeah.

    28. SH

      If you can understand what's behind their behavior-

    29. BK

      Yes

    30. SH

      ... I think you can better handle it in a way that, again, is

  10. 20:03 – 22:43

    RSD in adults: people pleasing and perfectionism

    1. SH

      promoting resilience.

    2. BK

      Tell me about RSD in adults and what you see there.

    3. SH

      RSD in adults I think is an interesting phenomenon 'cause like whenever I talk about this on social media, like inevitably, underneath the video, all, there will be five plus comments w- which are, "This had a name?" The, so people, you know, this is a phenomenon-

    4. BK

      Yes

    5. SH

      ... that many people have been experiencing, did not know there was a name for it, did not know that this is a neurobiological phenomenon that is happening, that something is quite literally making their brain fire differently. And so I think when you look at it and you're starting to pick it up in adulthood, again, you're looking at patterns over time, but when you pick it up over adulthood, you also see a lot of compensatory behavior.

    6. BK

      Mm.

    7. SH

      So things that adults do to avoid rejection. So you see a lot of people pleasing and you see a lot of-

    8. BK

      Mm

    9. SH

      ... perfectionism and you see a lot of, you know, I'm not gonna delegate that out, I'm gonna do it myself because I need this to be done correctly because I cannot afford someone criticizing me or rejecting me or not putting me up for that promotion.

    10. BK

      Yeah.

    11. SH

      And so you see a lot of people that, you know, for a lot of their lives they're being celebrated for this, and it's really that they're compensating for something that is wounded.

    12. BK

      And, and I think also, I just think about this tendency, this is for kids and adults, where the things that can be really painful for us inside, sometimes we, we externalize, right? So if I feel, ugh, I just don't know if I'm making mom friends in this new preschool and I feel, I don't know, do I have, by the way, do I even like them? Are they my people? I don't know. It's on my mind. And ugh, they don't want me at that lunch.

    13. SH

      Yeah.

    14. BK

      It's so much easier in some ways to say, to externalize the rejection-

    15. SH

      Yeah

    16. BK

      ... or to look for it in others. A different way of thinking about that situation is, okay, hold on. Like what's going on for me? What do I care about? Does this feel tender? Was I left out in middle school? Then yeah, of course I'm gonna feel, you know, a little bit of nervousness at some degree. Making mom friends in preschool is just middle school all over again, let's be honest, you know?

    17. SH

      Oh, my God, I know.

    18. BK

      Yeah. And so we carry those, those wounds.

    19. SH

      We do.

    20. BK

      But again, and, and the reason I'm bringing this up is there is a, there's a real situation that I wanna walk through with you, and I was talking about this with one of my friends, where this is a mom in my life and she's in this new soccer team that her kid just made, young kid, but a lot of these moms have kind of known each other and, you know, they spend, it's like, you know, on these teams, three practices a week, weekend tournaments. Like this, she's

  11. 22:43 – 29:00

    "Okay, that's fine.": the carpool text

    1. BK

      like, "This is my new social group whether I-

    2. SH

      Yes

    3. BK

      ... want it to be or not.

    4. SH

      Yeah.

    5. BK

      Like this is where we're spending time. And I needed someone to carpool.

    6. SH

      Uh-huh.

    7. BK

      Text one of the moms and she just writes back, "Okay, that's fine. Okay, that's fine." And my friend calls me and she's like, "Spinning out. Spinning out. Should I, should I, oh my God, she doesn't, does she not like my kid? Is my kid rude and did she not like me? Like oh my God, oh, okay, that's fine. Like she's like..." And, and again, the story-

    8. SH

      Mm-hmm

    9. BK

      ... gets so far. So what might be happening for her, a fu- you know, an adult woman who's [laughs] totally high functioning?

    10. SH

      Yeah.

    11. BK

      Like what's going on in that moment? 'Cause we're all-

    12. SH

      We've all been there

    13. BK

      ... we've all been there.

    14. SH

      We've all been there. So, you know, and this is one of the perils of having so many different forms of communication and di- and like there is only-

    15. BK

      Sasha, yes

    16. SH

      ... one, for me, there's only one correct way that you can punctuate an emoji, a sentence, [laughs] for me to be s- pleased with it. Because if you are sending me something and the message is like short or not punctuated properly or, you know, if, if you are-

    17. BK

      I wanna know the punctuation for you. What do I have to do when I text you?

    18. SH

      Well, listen, if you are i- ending something with a period, I, I, I'm assuming that I have hurt you in some way and-

    19. BK

      Mm

    20. SH

      ... that we're no longer friends. [laughs]

    21. BK

      I'm pissed. I hate you.

    22. SH

      Just-

    23. BK

      Sasha, episode is going to be released tomorrow, period. You're like, "Oh, Becky hated our episode."

    24. SH

      Yeah, give me an exclamation mark-

    25. BK

      [laughs]

    26. SH

      ... you psycho. Like no, don't do a period Yeah, ooh. Um, so I don't, um, I, I feel like it, it, we have all these different internal mental metrics that we have now had these invisible things, check marks of like this is indicating tone for us.

    27. BK

      Yeah.

    28. SH

      So for me, I, I feel like the speed of how they respond, the how excited the response sounds, that's indicating how they feel about the statement before.

    29. BK

      So the block was me. I, 'cause I, I talked about this with my friend for a while-

    30. SH

      Yeah

  12. 29:00 – 37:24

    When you and your kid both have it

    1. SH

      And my kid's this person.

    2. BK

      My ki- and my kid is this person.

    3. SH

      [laughs]

    4. BK

      And when my kid says, "I wasn't invited to that sleepover, I think she hates me," I'm kind of like, "Yeah, I think, I think she hates you. What a bitch." You know? [laughs] Like, and that, but I don't know if that's so useful. Like, what happens when it all happens together, and can we use the fact that we have that similarity as a superpower-

    5. SH

      Ugh

    6. BK

      ... in the relationship?

    7. SH

      So to me, I feel, I think because I'm going through this, I'm a sensitive person, I have sensitive kids, we're all co-regulating and navigating together.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. SH

      And I think that one of the most beautiful experiences that we've had as a family is that we have this safe place where we can talk about-

    10. BK

      Yeah

    11. SH

      ... things. And, you know, e- even when my son was really young, um, he, it was hard because he still does, he did the same thing where he would throw down the glass of milk. He would feel things, but sometimes we would see the milk, [laughs] like we wouldn't see the response. We would hear him. And so we got into the habit of asking, like, "Is your heart hurt or is your body hurt?" Like, "What is hurting right now?"

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. SH

      And, and so it was sometimes it, it, it, he was able to tell even at that early age, you know, like, "No, it's my heart. Something hurt my heart." And then it would open up a dialogue that way.

    14. BK

      Yeah. And, you know, something else- That I have found, because I think with these kids, if you think about them, right, these, these kids who are sensitive, these deeply feeling kids who have an antenna for the world, and because they're like that, they, I think part of the rejection sensitivity is they, they, they go to the worst scenario 'cause they're trying to protect themselves. Like if that's true-

    15. SH

      Of course

    16. BK

      ... I know myself. I'm a pretty deeply feeling person. I need to kind of assume that's true, because if it is true, it's gonna be bad, so I'll-

    17. SH

      Good for me

    18. BK

      ... I'm gonna get there first. I might as well get there first and not be caught by surprise, which I also hate.

    19. SH

      Totally.

    20. BK

      'Cause I think deeply feeling people hate being surprised. Good surprise is bad, it's just a lot.

    21. SH

      It's, it's, it's shocking to the nervous system either way.

    22. BK

      That, 100%. And so I think about the parent who's like, "Okay, it's me, and it's also my kid," and I just think about what a superpower it is to be able to say this from a place of truth. You know, I do this thing sometimes. I don't have full information, and I really care a lot about my relationships, and so I might be nervous I didn't do well on something at work, and if someone just says, "How was work?" I'm like, "Oh, you're saying I didn't do well at work."

    23. SH

      [laughs] What do you know?

    24. BK

      What do you know, right? Or someone writes me a text-

    25. SH

      Mm

    26. BK

      ... and they say something like, "It's fine," and my brain tells a story. And to be able to say to your kid, "Anyway, that ever happens to you, I get it." Like-

    27. SH

      Yeah

    28. BK

      ... d- we, we can both look at this thing together.

    29. SH

      Yeah.

    30. BK

      'Cause I always think the worst thing for a kid is to feel like the only one in a family.

  13. 37:24 – 40:21

    People pleasing, strong-willed kids, and girls

    1. BK

      girls.

    2. SH

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      Yeah, just chat on that for a second.

    4. SH

      So, you know, when we... [laughs] You know, I wish, like, for girls, ch- this is just the way of the world. Socially, we're just primed differently. We are expected to toe the line and to behave and not get in trouble and not go out of line and not assert our needs and wants and things like that. So when you are feeling things so incredibly deeply, and you're highly emotionally sensitive, and you may have rejection sensitive dysphoria where you are terrified of rejection or criticism because of that emotional response it's going to have that could potentially devastate you, you pair that with this social priming of, like, "I can't get in trouble," and then the only option at that point becomes, "Okay, well then I'll do what you want. I'll d- I'll become the perfect kid. I'll become the kid who preempts that. I- I'll become the kid who can tell if the teacher is sighing that she's going to be frustrated soon, so I need to start picking up the papers or working with my peers."

    5. BK

      Get ahead of it.

    6. SH

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      Get a... You know, you know what? I just had this new thought when you were talking, 'cause I'm obsessed with these kids and the, you know, obsessed with, like, the people pleaser in the making.

    8. SH

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      Like my own inner child work, you know?

    10. SH

      [laughs]

    11. BK

      Going back. We'll, we'll have another session on that.

    12. SH

      Yeah. F- I'm on it.

    13. BK

      Um, a- and the new thought I just had was, um, these strong-willed kids, 'cause I have a kid like that, too.

    14. SH

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      Zero... If you can have negative people pleasing, he has negative people pleasing.

    16. SH

      [laughs]

    17. BK

      Okay? And what's really interesting when I think about this rejection sensitivity, in a way, my strong-willed kid, his rejection sensitivity is to himself.

    18. SH

      Oh, yeah.

    19. BK

      If I feel like my individuality or my freedom is being threatened, if I just even smell the tiniest bit, I will use this as an opportunity to show you-

    20. SH

      [laughs]

    21. BK

      ... I'm going scorched earth. You know what I mean?

    22. SH

      Yeah.

    23. BK

      And, like, so obsessed with, like, in some ways can be, like, with what I want.

    24. SH

      Yeah.

    25. BK

      And the opposite is the people pleasing, which is, like, so obsessed with what you want.

    26. SH

      Yes.

    27. BK

      Right? Um, and, and they're both versions of this big reaction.

    28. SH

      Protecting sensitivity.

    29. BK

      Protecting sensitivity.

    30. SH

      Yeah.

  14. 40:21 – 45:11

    When your kid rejects you

    1. BK

      how do you help us think through that?

    2. SH

      It hurts my feelings every time. [laughs] It does. Um, I've recently been traveling so much-

    3. BK

      Yeah

    4. SH

      ... for this book, and then, you know, when I come home, I mean, I'm fully expecting, like, a full parade when I get home. [laughs] Like, I want them to be so happy.

    5. BK

      Let me know how that goes for you, Sasha.

    6. SH

      It-

    7. BK

      I don't know

    8. SH

      ... poorly. Poorly.

    9. BK

      Poorly.

    10. SH

      Poorly.

    11. BK

      [laughs]

    12. SH

      Because by then-

    13. BK

      Yeah

    14. SH

      ... they have, like, "Well, we wanna go to Aunt Chrissy's house, and, you know, they, she has fun snacks."

    15. BK

      Yeah.

    16. SH

      And I'm like, "But I'm here finally." [laughs]

    17. BK

      And maybe they're mad at you.

    18. SH

      They're a little mad.

    19. BK

      "Where'd you go?"

    20. SH

      They're a little mad.

    21. BK

      Yeah.

    22. SH

      And so this, this feeling of, and I feel like for me, and it's a weird area to be in as a parent, my people pleasing kicks in, too, because then I wanna suck up to my kid. And so it's just like, d- uh, "Okay, well, if you hang out with me-

    23. BK

      [laughs]

    24. SH

      ... we'll go and get ice cream." I'm like, "No, wait. No, we're not doing that 'cause you're gonna be a nightmare-

    25. BK

      Dude

    26. SH

      ... at bedtime. No." Like, so- [laughs]

    27. BK

      Yeah

    28. SH

      ... d-

    29. BK

      So how are you preparing for that? Because here's the thing, and I think 'cause working parents are listening to this, non-working parents, either way, we leave our kids, and when I said your kids are mad at you, to be clear, I don't think you did anything wrong.

    30. SH

      Yeah.

  15. 45:11 – 49:32

    Emotional vaccination

    1. BK

      could happen in my very real life in my home that could evoke the stories I most fear in my own body? Because then in some ways there's a part of it that wants the parade, but there's a part of us that can do something very different. It's like we're, I call it emotional vaccination. Like, let me just get ready. That might happen. It's true. My, for me, it might be my husband's now done bedtime f- how many nights in a row? So it is a change. For my kid, they might just say, "I've gotten used to Dad." For me, I hear that as, "You've lost your spot forever." [laughs]

    2. SH

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      That's a big gap. But l- because I think then, and you tell me, if my kid does the bedtime thing, and if I'm able to say, "I knew this could happen," it-

    4. SH

      Takes off some of that sting

    5. BK

      ... some. Some, some. And that's, that's the best, for a sensitive person, and we love that about you, and you do too, that, that's probably the best it gets is the sting is a 8 out of 10 instead of a 10 out of 10.

    6. SH

      I'll take it.

    7. BK

      Right?

    8. SH

      I will take it. I think, I think for me, that, that concept of emotional vaccination is, number one, incredibly important because I think it also helps me, it, it just mentally kind of prepares. And then sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised. When it doesn't happen, I'm like, "Great." [laughs]

    9. BK

      Yeah.

    10. SH

      And then the other thing about this entire concept is I think for a long time I did not do that, and I think it's because once that negative thought-

    11. BK

      Ugh

    12. SH

      ... got in there, it was almost too big to look away from.

    13. BK

      Oh.

    14. SH

      Like, a, or, or dig into. So I didn't wanna dig into it. I didn't want to-

    15. BK

      Mm

    16. SH

      ... like, provide any sort of alternative interpretation, because what if I couldn't find any? As I became more in tuned with, number one, I am emotionally sensitive, these are going to be big, and I, I'll just have to, it'll take a little bit more time to navigate through, it started to soften, but it was a practice.

    17. BK

      I just love how real that is. Thank you.

    18. SH

      Mm.

    19. BK

      Well, look, thank you. Thank you for this conversation, for your work, for your book, Too Sensitive: Rejection Resilience and the Science of Feeling Deeply. Dr. Sasha Hamdani, this is incredible, and the world's so lucky-

    20. SH

      Thank you

    21. BK

      ... to have you within this, so thank you.

    22. SH

      Thank you so much. [gentle music]

    23. BK

      All right, so where do I wanna end on this one? Well, after we stopped filming, Sasha and I stayed in our chairs for about 30 more minutes, and we actually got more and more into what I talk about as deeply feeling kids. One of the things I loved talking with Sasha about was how we weren't in the mode of, is it this or this? Is it ADHD or deeply feeling kids? Is it RSD or deeply feeling kids? We both got excited about, holy moly, there are just these kids, they're wired a little differently. They perceive everything in their environment. So yeah, they're a little more hypervigilant. Could that person be laughing at me? Could that go wrong? Which means, yes, they are more likely to have what Dr. Hamdani calls RSD. I want you to know that if this is your kid, you don't have to choose, is it RSD or ADHD or DFK? So many acronyms. The most important thing is that you feel like you actually have an understanding of what's going on for your kid. You get why they're like this. You get what's going to be helpful. You get what actually is gonna make things worse, and then you feel like you can help them build the skills they don't have without feeling like you're walking on eggshells. Anyway, if that sounds like you and your kid, please know I'm truly obsessed with our Deeply Feeling Kid program. I think it's maybe the piece of work I've put out to the world that I'm most proud of, and I've just watched family after family say that the trajectory of their kid's life around this rejection stuff, around the dysregulation, has really changed and been made better. I'll put a link to it in the show notes, and I just wanted to make sure you knew it was there. All right. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and your hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. [gentle music] I'll see you soon.

Episode duration: 49:52

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