“Why Don’t I Feel a Bond With My Baby?” A Honest Conversation About Early Motherhood

Dr. Becky 0:00 [gentle music]

Dr. Becky 0:00 Hi, welcome to Rattled, a podcast from Goodinside. I'm Dr. Becky, and I'm really glad you're here. We made the show especially for you, new parents and parents-to-be in those first few weeks and months around having a baby. For those moments when new parenthood shakes you, those moments that make you second-guess yourself and your choices. Today, we're exploring, what if I don't feel this rush of love? If you've ever had this question run through your head, please know you're not the only one. When this question shows up, it feels heavy. It brings up fears about connection and identity and whether you'll ever feel like the parent you wanted to feel like with your new baby. In this episode, we're going to hear one mom's story, and we're going to really slow things down together so that feeling and that thought just becomes a little less overwhelming and definitely a lot less lonely. Think of this as a steady voice beside you from someone who's been there, too. Today, that voice belongs to Ruthie Ackerman. Outside this podcast, she's a writing coach, and she's the author of the memoir The Mother Code: My Story of Love, Loss, and the Myths That Shape Us. But today in this podcast, she's a mom who's sharing very openly about the feeling she had after having a baby and not having this rush of bonding and love that so many people talk about. [gentle music] Who was Ruthie Ackerman before her first baby arrived?

Ruthie Ackerman 1:44 Hell no, I would never have a baby. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 1:48 [laughs] Okay.

Ruthie Ackerman 1:49 I, I know, which is kind of crazy to me now.

Dr. Becky 1:53 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 1:54 But I believed at the time that having a baby felt anti-feminist.

Dr. Becky 2:00 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 2:00 That it felt like something weak, degrading, diminishing-

Dr. Becky 2:06 Mm-hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 2:06 ... and that I felt like, why would I do that to myself?

Dr. Becky 2:10 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 2:10 The game is rigged.

Dr. Becky 2:12 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 2:13 And it was only in researching and investigating for the book that I ended up writing that I realized that since the beginning of time, women have been having babies and in very radical ways-

Dr. Becky 2:28 Hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 2:28 ... in very revolutionary ways.

Dr. Becky 2:30 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 2:31 But the images that I had seen, in my own family, but also in the larger society-

Dr. Becky 2:36 Hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 2:36 ... really were these anti-feminist-

Dr. Becky 2:39 Hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 2:39 ... models. And yet that was the only image that I could see.

Dr. Becky 2:45 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 2:45 And so it was like, who says it has to be that way?

Dr. Becky 2:49 And, and just, like, how you spent your time, what mattered, how you thought about, you know, the course of your week, your schedule, what got time. Tell me about all that pre-baby.

Ruthie Ackerman 2:58 Yeah. I was spending a lot of time focusing on my work-

Dr. Becky 3:04 Mm-hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 3:04 ... on my career.

Dr. Becky 3:05 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 3:06 I was focusing on dating.

Dr. Becky 3:09 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 3:10 I had just been divorced. I was looking for a new partner.

Dr. Becky 3:14 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 3:15 So I, [laughs] one of the, the things I write about is 60 dates in six months. I was going on a lot of dates.

Dr. Becky 3:20 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 3:21 Uh, I was trying to have the time of my life.

Dr. Becky 3:25 All right. So let's think maybe now you're in that zone of considering having a baby. Maybe you're even pregnant. What did you think would come naturally?

Ruthie Ackerman 3:34 [laughs] None of it felt like it was gonna come naturally.

Dr. Becky 3:39 Okay.

Ruthie Ackerman 3:39 None of it.

Dr. Becky 3:40 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 3:40 Because I had finally, you know, many years later, decided I really wanted a baby. None of the natural ways of having a baby were working for me, from sex, which felt old-fashioned. [laughs] I, like, can't believe people have sex to have babies, I mean.

Dr. Becky 3:59 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 3:59 To the, to IVF, which didn't work. So none of the... I mean, IVF was even natural in my mind at that point.

Dr. Becky 4:07 Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 4:07 Like, that's just how everyone does it.

Dr. Becky 4:09 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 4:10 So none of the having baby part felt natural.

Dr. Becky 4:13 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 4:14 Um, and then I thought it was gonna be really hard for me to bond with any child that I had because I come from a long line of women who had really traumatized relationships with their children.

Dr. Becky 4:30 Hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 4:31 And I just thought that it was either a flaw in my DNA, or I just didn't have a model for what bonding and, and secure attachment would look like.

Dr. Becky 4:40 Mm-hmm. Wow. Did you have an image of those first couple weeks? Did you think about it?

Ruthie Ackerman 4:47 [laughs] I thought I wasn't gonna sleep. I thought I was going to be doing the five S's, which I don't even remember what- [laughs]

Dr. Becky 4:57 Soothing, swaddling, shushing.

Ruthie Ackerman 4:59 I was like, I was like, the only S-

Dr. Becky 5:00 Right. Mm-hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 5:00 ... is don't shake the baby. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 5:02 Yep, mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:03 So that's... I mean, yeah, I just thought, "I'm going to be doing a lot of, like, calming down." Oh, I also bought all these really, like, pretty nursing tops for the breastfeeding I was gonna do.

Dr. Becky 5:14 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:14 But that was a struggle.

Dr. Becky 5:16 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:16 And I was like, "Can I return these $100 shirts?"

Dr. Becky 5:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Ruthie Ackerman 5:20 But they all look so, like, cute in the photos.

Dr. Becky 5:23 They do.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:23 Right?

Dr. Becky 5:23 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:24 I'm, like, in a field, you know, with flowers.

Dr. Becky 5:26 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:26 And I'm gonna be breastfeeding.

Dr. Becky 5:28 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:28 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:29 Is that what...

Ruthie Ackerman 5:30 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 5:30 I feel like we all hyper-focus on different things right before the baby comes.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:33 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 5:33 Either, like, getting our house ready or the right swaddles or the right bottles-

Ruthie Ackerman 5:37 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 5:37 ... or the right outfits. Where did your focus go?

Ruthie Ackerman 5:40 All of the above.

Dr. Becky 5:40 All of the above. [laughs]

Ruthie Ackerman 5:41 And then my husband was, um... We lived in a very tiny 500-square foot, basically one-bedroom apartment, but he was, like, measuring. There was tape on the floor for where the crib was gonna go and where all the stuff was gonna fit.

Dr. Becky 5:55 Yep.

Ruthie Ackerman 5:55 So we were, like, literally measuring out the space that this baby would take, but the baby takes up all the space. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 6:02 But then there's also, like, I'm walking around all the extra space in my apartment with the baby, and it feels like it takes up all the emotional space.

Ruthie Ackerman 6:09 Right.

Dr. Becky 6:10 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 6:10 And then I see other parents with other things that I'm like, "Oh, well, then I need the this thing because we don't have that."

Dr. Becky 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 6:17 "And I need the little thing to put on her diaper because then I'll know if she's not breathing." And you-

Dr. Becky 6:23 Yes

Ruthie Ackerman 6:23 ... everything feels life or death In those first few weeks

Dr. Becky 6:28 And there are so many products out there-

Ruthie Ackerman 6:30 Oh my God. Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 6:30 ... that like no matter what concern you have as a parent, rational or irrational, there is a product that tells you-

Ruthie Ackerman 6:36 Yeah

Dr. Becky 6:37 ... it can help you with that

Ruthie Ackerman 6:38 It's gonna solve it.

Dr. Becky 6:39 Right.

Ruthie Ackerman 6:39 It's gonna solve it. And also, people around me were saying that.

Dr. Becky 6:42 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 6:42 And also, I had my baby, let's, let me be clear. I had my baby in August 2020.

Dr. Becky 6:47 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 6:47 So there was also, like, all the fears around COVID.

Dr. Becky 6:50 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 6:50 And like, and being pregnant during COVID and all of that. And [laughs]

Dr. Becky 6:54 What were some of the things that loomed large in your head before the baby came? Kind of online advice, people advice, what were you hearing?

Ruthie Ackerman 7:01 I mean, the things which all, it was all the things. It was the SIDS. I was sure that like-

Dr. Becky 7:07 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 7:07 ... I was going to do something that was going, and I was gonna miss a sign.

Dr. Becky 7:12 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 7:12 That was really big for me.

Dr. Becky 7:14 How was that?

Ruthie Ackerman 7:14 Um, also we, I, I didn't mention this part yet, but we used donor eggs to have our child.

Dr. Becky 7:20 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 7:20 And so I had a lot of fears that my child and I wouldn't bond.

Dr. Becky 7:26 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 7:27 That there wouldn't be, um, we wouldn't look like each other. We wouldn't-

Dr. Becky 7:31 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 7:31 ... resemble each other.

Dr. Becky 7:32 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 7:32 And because of that, people would look at us and see my failure written on her face.

Dr. Becky 7:42 My baby might not look like me. Will I feel bonded to my baby? Will other people make judgments when they see me and my baby?

Ruthie Ackerman 7:51 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:51 A whole other layer-

Ruthie Ackerman 7:53 A whole other layer

Dr. Becky 7:53 ... going through your mind, and a lot of uncertainty. You don't know what your baby's gonna be like. You don't know what you're gonna feel-

Ruthie Ackerman 7:58 No

Dr. Becky 7:58 ... in those first days, weeks, months, right?

Ruthie Ackerman 8:00 No, of course not.

Dr. Becky 8:00 Yeah, right.

Ruthie Ackerman 8:01 And also, I would sit outside, there's benches outside our apartment building, and I would watch other moms and babies walk by.

Dr. Becky 8:08 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 8:09 And I would say like, "Oh, do, does that mom look like her baby? Does this one look like her baby?" And if it was a day that there were lots of moms that looked like their babies, I felt better and reassured.

Dr. Becky 8:19 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 8:19 And then if it was a day where they didn't, you know, like it, it was just like I was holding onto this external thing-

Dr. Becky 8:27 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 8:27 ... and like feeling reassurance from things that actually didn't matter.

Dr. Becky 8:31 But I think that's, that just really resonates. Our brain likes to have certainty. It really, really does. And so it really struggles in moments of uncertainty, especially when the uncertainty is in a topic we really care about. And so we get hyper-focused on these like external certainties. Does that baby look like the mom? Does that baby look like the mom? Do the babies who look like their mom have better bonding, and do, oh, oh, oh, and, and we have, I don't know, like three data points-

Ruthie Ackerman 8:59 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 8:59 ... but then our brain likes to make up stories, right?

Ruthie Ackerman 9:02 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 9:02 Really does.

Ruthie Ackerman 9:03 Yeah. And resemblance felt like something I could control. There were so many pieces of the donor, uh, donor process that were out of my control.

Dr. Becky 9:12 Yes.

Ruthie Ackerman 9:12 But resemblance was something I could hold onto.

Dr. Becky 9:15 Resemblance. Okay, so fill in this blank for me. In month/year, I became a mom.

Ruthie Ackerman 9:22 [sighs]

Dr. Becky 9:23 Just tell me, in...

Ruthie Ackerman 9:24 In, it was, it would be in 2021, early, maybe like, I would say February, March 2021. She was born in August 2020. So it took the, it took-

Dr. Becky 9:37 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 9:37 ... not only the waking up with her, and the changing the diapers, and those things-

Dr. Becky 9:42 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 9:42 ... it took the day-to-day caretaking-

Dr. Becky 9:46 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 9:46 ... to become a mother.

Dr. Becky 9:48 Ooh, I, so tell me if this is right. In August 2020, I had a baby.

Ruthie Ackerman 9:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 9:53 In February or March 2021, I feel like I became a mom.

Ruthie Ackerman 9:57 Yeah, yeah. I was going through the motions for all those months. Not that I didn't feel love and feel attachment, I did.

Dr. Becky 10:08 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 10:09 But I didn't kind of, I couldn't pick my head up and say, "Oh, this commitment that I've made-"

Dr. Becky 10:15 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 10:16 ... "through the day-to-day caretaking has now made me feel like a mother."

Dr. Becky 10:20 Oh.

Ruthie Ackerman 10:20 It was a limbo.

Dr. Becky 10:21 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 10:22 I was in this limbo where I didn't know who exactly I was.

Dr. Becky 10:26 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 10:27 And also, I think we were all in an identity shift during that time-

Dr. Becky 10:30 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 10:30 ... [laughs] and being in a very small apartment-

Dr. Becky 10:33 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 10:33 ... and not seeing, like no one could come visit us.

Dr. Becky 10:35 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 10:36 And we couldn't see anyone, so I felt like in this like, like the walls were closing in a little bit, both mentally and physically.

Dr. Becky 10:43 Could you bring me your back or share just a moment in that August to February period, something that feels still memorable, visceral?

Ruthie Ackerman 10:53 Oh. The thing that's coming to me is watching for clues as to whether my child noticed that we didn't share DNA. So I'll give you an example. Um, you know, we, uh, Rob, my husband, would like make a joke to her, or tickle her, or whatever. And, and remember, she's a few months old.

Dr. Becky 11:16 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 11:16 So she's like laughing at everything. But I would watch the way he'd interact with her, and the way she'd throw her head back in laughter, and feel like, oh, that's because they have this special bond that the DNA creates.

Dr. Becky 11:31 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 11:31 The, and then I would watch and say, "Oh, she's not laughing as hard at my jokes." [laughs] And like-

Dr. Becky 11:37 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 11:37 ... "She's not laughing as much at me, or she doesn't seem as like in the flow with me." And so I'm always like outside of my body, watching.

Dr. Becky 11:46 So is she, is she like on the floor-

Ruthie Ackerman 11:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 11:48 ... on the carpet with your husband?

Ruthie Ackerman 11:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 11:50 I don't, g- give me like the details.

Ruthie Ackerman 11:52 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 11:52 Like what's, where are you?

Ruthie Ackerman 11:53 Like on the bed.

Dr. Becky 11:54 Okay.

Ruthie Ackerman 11:54 Yeah, like on the bed, and I'm watch- and I'm like standing by like, there's the front door.

Dr. Becky 12:00 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 12:01 And I can see them on the bed, and they're playing, and just having this like great time.

Dr. Becky 12:08 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 12:08 And it feels like there's no other care in the world, that there's no other person in the world, and I feel on the outside.

Dr. Becky 12:15 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 12:16 And I still remember that feeling, and it was only months, m- you know, m- I would say months later that I started-- And I used to, by the way, hold her up in the mirror and look at our faces together and be like, "Oh, does she look like me?"

Dr. Becky 12:32 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 12:33 And, um, and then- You know, in the years to come, people would s- you know, go, we'd be walking down the street or we'd be at a party and people would ask, like, "Oh, she, she..." They'd either say, "She looks like your mini-me," or they'd say, "She looks exactly like your husband." And so eventually I realized, you know what? People say whatever comes into their mind, and that sometimes I feel like she looks just like me.

Dr. Becky 13:01 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 13:01 And sometimes I feel like she doesn't.

Dr. Becky 13:04 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 13:05 And sometimes she says to me, "Mom, we're twins." And it's like-

Dr. Becky 13:09 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 13:09 ... just, like, warms me up from the-

Dr. Becky 13:12 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 13:12 ... deepest parts of myself. And so it just took time-

Dr. Becky 13:15 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 13:15 ... for me to get comfortable with all of that.

Dr. Becky 13:17 And so if we go back to that moment, I'm picturing you standing at the door, you're watching your husband play with your baby. And I'm just, it, it's interesting probably 'cause I'm trying to think if I was i- in the same room as you, I don't even know if I would've n- noticed, like, what's exactly going on in your head. If it just looks like, oh, there's just a mom watching her husband play with their child. But this is not just witnessing, "Oh, so nice that they're bonding."

Ruthie Ackerman 13:46 No.

Dr. Becky 13:46 "Oh, I get a break." No. Like, what, what's, like, the loudest thought in your head in that moment?

Ruthie Ackerman 13:55 Will I ever feel this in it? Like, this, will I ever not have some wedge between me and my baby?

Dr. Becky 14:06 Will I ever not have some wedge between me and my baby? Will I ever feel this close? Will I ever feel this-

Ruthie Ackerman 14:11 Will I ever feel this close, this sense of intimacy, this cellular connection-

Dr. Becky 14:17 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 14:17 ... which is what I'm, I felt like I was told I would feel.

Dr. Becky 14:22 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 14:23 Motherhood rearranges us cellularly.

Dr. Becky 14:26 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 14:26 That we need to feel this overwhelming, like, knocked down by a wave sense of love-

Dr. Becky 14:32 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 14:33 ... and connection. And-

Dr. Becky 14:34 And that wave

Ruthie Ackerman 14:36 ... it didn't come at first.

Dr. Becky 14:38 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 14:38 And I wanted it so badly.

Dr. Becky 14:40 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 14:40 I feel like y- when you're watching for something and waiting for something [laughs] and nothing-

Dr. Becky 14:45 I mean, it's, uh-

Ruthie Ackerman 14:46 Does it ever come?

Dr. Becky 14:47 Yeah. It makes me wonder, I don't know, did you wake up every morning like, is [laughs] -

Ruthie Ackerman 14:51 Yeah

Dr. Becky 14:51 ... is it here? Like, did the Amazon package arrive? [laughs] Like-

Ruthie Ackerman 14:53 Yes

Dr. Becky 14:53 ... is today the day? Is today the day, right? And we're, we're so hypervigilant, and it changes-

Ruthie Ackerman 14:58 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 14:58 ... our relationship with the feeling. It makes us doubt even if it's there in a flicker, and I-

Ruthie Ackerman 15:03 Mm

Dr. Becky 15:03 ... I don't know if that feeling comes. Is that a true feeling? Is that a made-up feeling? Does it happen for some people? Does it happen for everyone? D- does it happen for people who are genetically related to their babies, right?

Ruthie Ackerman 15:14 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 15:14 Probably all of it, but you were especially attuned to it.

Ruthie Ackerman 15:18 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 15:18 Um, and probably oriented toward the negative. Nope, that's not it, right?

Ruthie Ackerman 15:24 Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Becky 15:25 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 15:25 But now I can tell you that I feel those things. I feel bowled over by her, and I feel bonded, and I never... I, I mean, I don't wanna say never, but, like, I almost never think about the fact that we're not related by DNA.

Dr. Becky 15:41 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 15:41 But you know what? I can't tell you what that moment was.

Dr. Becky 15:44 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 15:45 But in real life, there isn't always a, like, one moment when something happens. It's like an accretion of moments.

Dr. Becky 15:52 That, that really matters. This, this idealized moment we've talked about that I think, number one, some people think as soon as you have a baby, you experience this love you've never experienced before.

Ruthie Ackerman 16:03 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 16:03 You're completed. You have this relationship that you could have never imagined. I mean, I'm just thinking about how much that narrative sets anyone up, donor egg or not donor egg, to be like, I, I am doing this motherhood thing wrong or, or-

Ruthie Ackerman 16:16 Yeah

Dr. Becky 16:16 ... something's wrong with me, you know?

Ruthie Ackerman 16:18 Absolutely. And the fact that we struggled with breastfeeding made me feel like she doesn't... I mean, I went into those spirals. I was, "She doesn't like the taste of my milk because she's not from my DNA." We had to use donor milk at first, and then it was like, oh, donor egg and donor milk. What does that say about me?

Dr. Becky 16:37 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 16:38 There were just layers upon layers of ways I beat myself up.

Dr. Becky 16:41 What was that... What was... Take me back into that part of your brain. Donor egg, donor milk. Or sorry, donor egg, and she doesn't like my milk, right?

Ruthie Ackerman 16:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 16:51 What, what, what stories do you start telling yourself around that?

Ruthie Ackerman 16:55 Well, I remember that she would, like, go like this and shake her head, and I thought she was saying, "No, no," in my mind.

Dr. Becky 17:03 Like-

Ruthie Ackerman 17:03 I heard her saying, "No," like I-

Dr. Becky 17:06 Like no milk? No, you're not my mom? No... What did it feel like she was saying? [laughs]

Ruthie Ackerman 17:10 [laughs] I felt like she was... Like, I'm trying to push her on my breast, and she's saying, "No." It felt almost like an assault. I mean, we're told, like, in-

Dr. Becky 17:22 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 17:23 ... I don't know, sex ed, you have to ask for consent.

Dr. Becky 17:25 Right. [laughs]

Ruthie Ackerman 17:26 And I have this baby who's saying, screaming, "No," and I'm pushing her onto my breast.

Dr. Becky 17:31 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 17:31 It just felt like I'm doing something wrong here. This can't be right. And I asked the pediatrician, and she said, "When the baby goes like this and moves its head, it's looking for your breast. It's not saying no." And I was just like, whoa, I'm so deep in my own narrative.

Dr. Becky 17:51 Yeah. But I, I do think you're not alone, and there's nothing like feeding challenges that strike the core of motherhood.

Ruthie Ackerman 18:02 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 18:03 Right? 'Cause at the end of the day, what are we doing in the beginning? We are feeding them, right? And we feed them-

Ruthie Ackerman 18:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 18:07 ... with love, but we literally are feeding them.

Ruthie Ackerman 18:09 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 18:09 It's kinda the only thing we do.

Ruthie Ackerman 18:11 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 18:12 Right? Like-

Ruthie Ackerman 18:12 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 18:12 ... we all have this image of a baby, and we're playing, and they're smiling, they're cooing. I mean, not for a long time. They're sleeping-

Ruthie Ackerman 18:18 Yeah

Dr. Becky 18:18 ... and, and you're feeding them. And, and I do think, and I just go back to my own early days, too, as much as I prepared myself, like, it just did, it starts to feel like a barometer for whether I'm a good parent who can bond with their baby.

Ruthie Ackerman 18:32 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 18:33 A- and, like, every moment with a latch is either my baby saying, "You, you're doing this, Mom" You're the right parent for me, or-

Ruthie Ackerman 18:42 Right

Dr. Becky 18:43 ... something's wrong with you, and like you are not cut out for this. And then, I don't know about you, the mix of desperation a- and a little anger, like almost anger. Like, you're supposed to-

Ruthie Ackerman 18:55 Yeah

Dr. Becky 18:55 ... do this. You know, you're... It feels like you're rejecting me, right?

Ruthie Ackerman 18:59 Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Becky 19:00 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 19:00 I felt that. And then I had like three different lactation consultants-

Dr. Becky 19:05 [laughs]

Ruthie Ackerman 19:05 ... and they would show these videos of women, and like, "Look how the baby's just... It's so natural." They used the word natural.

Dr. Becky 19:12 Oh, did they? Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 19:13 Yeah, and natural feels like it's wielded against women in so many ways. Natural childbirth, natural-

Dr. Becky 19:20 Yes

Ruthie Ackerman 19:20 ... you know, breastfeeding is natural.

Dr. Becky 19:23 Great.

Ruthie Ackerman 19:23 But you know what? Like, it- it's hard for people. And I ultimately now, looking back, I don't think it has anything to do with donor eggs.

Dr. Becky 19:32 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 19:32 But in my mind, I couldn't get out of that trap.

Dr. Becky 19:34 Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, I, I didn't have a donor egg, and I couldn't get out of that trap too, right? And I think you're right, that word natural is so loaded. Like, it, it seems so nice on the surface. Oh, it's gonna be easy. It's natural.

Ruthie Ackerman 19:46 Mm.

Dr. Becky 19:46 But the problem with natural is if you struggle with anything that's deemed to be natural-

Ruthie Ackerman 19:52 Yeah

Dr. Becky 19:52 ... the obvious implication is that you're flawed. Like, this is supposed to come-

Ruthie Ackerman 19:57 Mm

Dr. Becky 19:57 ... naturally, right?

Ruthie Ackerman 19:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 19:58 And so if I can't do it, something's wrong with me.

Ruthie Ackerman 20:01 Yes.

Dr. Becky 20:01 Right? Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 20:02 And so if you can't have a child the natural way, which is sex, and you can't have a childbirth naturally without-

Dr. Becky 20:09 Mm-hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 20:10 ... medicine-

Dr. Becky 20:10 Right

Ruthie Ackerman 20:11 ... [laughs] and you can't have-

Dr. Becky 20:12 Breastfeed naturally

Ruthie Ackerman 20:14 ... na- Yeah, naturally. Then what is left of the kind of markers and milestones of what it means to be a real mom?

Dr. Becky 20:22 Yes. So did anything surprise you about how you felt in those first number of weeks?

Ruthie Ackerman 20:30 Yeah. I felt surprised that I d- like, as much as I'm talking right now about the sort of, uh, hypervigilance, the ways that I kind of, um, was g- watching myself and my child, there was also this slow thing that was happening that was m- the bond that was starting to be built, and the ways in which I felt so connected and wanted to be so with her all the time. I'll give you an example.

Dr. Becky 21:06 Okay.

Ruthie Ackerman 21:06 When I would put her down to go to sleep, which of course sleep is like the biggest [laughs] thing in those first weeks and months, I would miss her immediately.

Dr. Becky 21:16 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 21:16 Immediately I would be like, "Oh, I need her like-

Dr. Becky 21:19 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 21:19 ... in my arms. I need her back."

Dr. Becky 21:21 Yeah, yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 21:22 And so that showed me that there was something going on there. And then, the other thing would be like I would sing this song that my mom used to sing to me. Me singing this song to my child that my mom sang to me felt really like, oh, wow, the things we inherit, the things we pass on-

Dr. Becky 21:41 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 21:41 ... are really powerful.

Dr. Becky 21:43 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 21:43 And then eventually, Clementine, my daughter, began singing that song with me-

Dr. Becky 21:48 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 21:48 ... as I sang it to her, which was so healing. So I didn't... I guess another thing is I didn't expect motherhood to heal me in the way I feel like it has.

Dr. Becky 21:58 Mm-hmm. Mm. Any, any other parts of those first number of months harder than you thought they'd be? I mean, I heard about the bonding and the feeding.

Ruthie Ackerman 22:11 I mean, so many.

Dr. Becky 22:14 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 22:14 I think the, the cry it out that we tried-

Dr. Becky 22:19 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 22:20 ... and I had to leave the apartment-

Dr. Becky 22:22 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 22:22 ... and my husband did the cry it out, and I came back and she had lost her voice, and I was just like-

Dr. Becky 22:28 Oh

Ruthie Ackerman 22:28 ... oh, my God.

Dr. Becky 22:29 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 22:29 So that was really hard.

Dr. Becky 22:31 So now, if you think back to those early days, what stands out? What stands out?

Ruthie Ackerman 22:39 I'm sure there's a good, like, evolutionary reason [laughs] for anxiety, but I do feel like, wow, once I sort of was able to let some of that go, the bond that I now have with my daughter-

Dr. Becky 22:54 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 22:54 ... and now it's like, oh, my God, she runs to me, and I feel like I run to her when she comes home-

Dr. Becky 23:00 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 23:00 ... from school, and, uh, like she's telling me about her day. And it just feels... I mean, now I'm gonna use the word natural-

Dr. Becky 23:08 Yeah, yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 23:08 ... even though we just said that it's like, you know, a word that has so many layers to it, but, like, it does feel really natural.

Dr. Becky 23:15 Mm.

Ruthie Ackerman 23:16 It feels really primal in a way, and I can't believe I thought that I wouldn't be able to do it.

Dr. Becky 23:22 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 23:22 Or you know what? Even more than that, I can't believe I thought that the story of the way I'd mother had been written for me in my DNA or even, like, by my maternal line-

Dr. Becky 23:36 Mm-hmm

Ruthie Ackerman 23:36 ... or by society.

Dr. Becky 23:38 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 23:38 I could choose the way I wanted to mother and who I was gonna be as a mother. I didn't have to do it the way others had told me.

Dr. Becky 23:46 Society's story, my own family's story, my genetic-related story, that, that doesn't have to be my inherited story. I can, I can write my own.

Ruthie Ackerman 23:55 Right. We can rewrite our narratives.

Dr. Becky 23:58 You know, it, it's interesting when I think about anxiety, right? Anxiety is future-oriented.

Ruthie Ackerman 24:03 Mm.

Dr. Becky 24:03 Right?

Ruthie Ackerman 24:03 Right.

Dr. Becky 24:04 And, and the interesting thing I always think about with humans, and, and I talk a good game.

Ruthie Ackerman 24:08 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 24:08 I'm a very anxious person myself about the future, so... And who knows me is like, "Play this back for your, play this back for yourself." But, like, one of the things I do try to remind myself is when that imagined future comes, Becky, the only thing I know is I'm gonna have more information that's true-

Ruthie Ackerman 24:23 Yeah

Dr. Becky 24:23 ... than I am going to today.

Ruthie Ackerman 24:25 It is so hard to feel that.

Dr. Becky 24:28 So hard. Um, if, if you today were sitting next to the Ruthie at week, you know, one or two, yeah, what would you say to her?

Ruthie Ackerman 24:37 I'd wanna hug her. Poor her.

Dr. Becky 24:40 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 24:40 Just I'd wanna hug her and say, "It's all gonna be okay." Your daughter's gonna love you. You're gonna love her.

Dr. Becky 24:48 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 24:48 There will not be a question-

Dr. Becky 24:51 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 24:51 ... in your mind. And that, and I haven't even talked about, like, it's also the family unit. It's not just her and I, it's my husband, too, and the three of us as, as a unit.

Dr. Becky 25:02 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 25:03 I didn't, I thought there would be, like, align, an alignment between them.

Dr. Becky 25:08 Them, them versus me a little?

Ruthie Ackerman 25:09 Them versus me, exactly.

Dr. Becky 25:11 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 25:11 Like, there has to be one person on the outside-

Dr. Becky 25:13 Mm

Ruthie Ackerman 25:14 ... um, if there's three, right? So I, but I don't feel that anymore.

Dr. Becky 25:19 Mm. And in terms of, uh, I wanna hold this duality that you didn't feel that rush of love and bonding then. You do feel that now. What, yeah, what would you say to new mom Ruthie about that, to honor, to honor the real pain and maybe to, to hold hope for w- you know, what you today know was coming in the future. What would you tell her?

Ruthie Ackerman 25:45 I would say, "You're exhausted. You are in the thick of it."

Dr. Becky 25:53 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 25:54 Don't expect too much from yourself right now.

Dr. Becky 25:56 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 25:56 I haven't even talked about the fact that I had postpartum anxiety and-

Dr. Becky 26:00 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 26:00 ... eventually was put on Zoloft, so that did help. But, like, you're in the thick of it. Don't expect that after this, like, life-changing thing of childbirth, where-

Dr. Becky 26:11 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 26:11 ... it's like, I lost a lot of blood, all the things, and then the exhaustion-

Dr. Becky 26:16 Yeah

Ruthie Ackerman 26:16 ... and then the hypervigilance and the anxiety, that you're gonna, like, automatically feel, like, bonded. And then you go to that six-week appointment, and the doctor's like, "Okay, you're, you get the- [laughs]

Dr. Becky 26:28 You're cleared. You're like, am I?

Ruthie Ackerman 26:30 You get ch- the check mark-

Dr. Becky 26:31 I don't know

Ruthie Ackerman 26:31 ... and you can, like, have sex again.

Dr. Becky 26:33 Right.

Ruthie Ackerman 26:33 I'm like, what? [laughs]

Dr. Becky 26:35 That is a less-

Ruthie Ackerman 26:35 Seriously

Dr. Becky 26:36 ... good thing. [laughs]

Ruthie Ackerman 26:37 You know what? It, it's interesting hearing you say that. Like, I'm thinking about someone who ran a marathon or climb Mount Everest.

Dr. Becky 26:42 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 26:42 And to some degree, right after a baby, every day you climb Mount Everest. Every day you run a marathon. You'd probably just say, "Holy moly, you just did something superhuman."

Dr. Becky 26:51 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 26:51 I, I'm guessing you feel nothing but exhaust- exhaustion and depletion, and I'm gonna stop talking now and just give you a hug and take care of you.

Dr. Becky 26:59 Right. Can you imagine after a marathon, "What, where should we go to dinner?" No.

Ruthie Ackerman 27:02 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 27:02 Have... I mean, I wouldn't know. I've never run a marathon. But if I did, I'd want my meal ready.

Ruthie Ackerman 27:07 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:07 I'd want my couch ready.

Ruthie Ackerman 27:09 Yep.

Dr. Becky 27:10 And, and if someone told me after running marathons every day for a week-

Ruthie Ackerman 27:14 Yeah

Dr. Becky 27:14 ... that actually the best barometer for my success was how bonded I felt to another human that, by the way, needed me constantly, I, I think I would say that's an unfair setup.

Ruthie Ackerman 27:26 It's completely unfair.

Dr. Becky 27:27 Yeah.

Ruthie Ackerman 27:27 And I'm thinking now that you're talking about, um, we had this family portrait session 11 days after our child was born, and I look at that portrait now, 'cause I was like, "What am I gonna wear? Is anyone gonna think I'm fat? Is..." And d- and my makeup, I had to put on ma- like, my red lipstick is my signature thing.

Dr. Becky 27:45 Mm-hmm.

Ruthie Ackerman 27:45 Um, like, I have to put on the red lipstick. I have to look like I haven't just been through battle.

Dr. Becky 27:50 Right.

Ruthie Ackerman 27:51 Why? Why, what if there was a picture that actually showed the battle we'd just been through?

Dr. Becky 27:57 You know, it just made, something I say to my daughter a lot, and I whisper to her in her ear when she goes to bed is just, "You're the perfect daughter for me." And it sounds like you got, you got the same thing.

Ruthie Ackerman 28:06 Oh, my God, I really do. And she says to me, "You're the best mom."

Dr. Becky 28:11 Oh. If you've ever felt like Ruthie, now you know you are not alone. And if you're listening before your baby arrives, now you know you might have a thought like this at some point. You might not have a rush of love and bonding. That's okay. It doesn't always come in an immediate way. And if that happens, remember, nothing's wrong with you. It doesn't mean you don't love your baby. It doesn't mean you're ungrateful. It doesn't mean you made a mistake. It doesn't mean you're not the perfect mom for this child. Becoming a parent changes you, and when something changes you that deeply, complicated thoughts come along with it. Your story might look different. Your hard moments might sound different. They're still real. They still count, and they are not some type of report card or measure of your progress. We are all moving through this in our own homes, at our own hours, and we are not doing it alone. At Good Inside, we're so excited about a brand-new, one-of-a-kind offering. We've brought together sleep experts, lactation experts, and me, a psychologist specializing in parenthood, all following the exact same method, so we can show up for new parents who are sharing their experiences inside their community. If you're curious what happens inside the Good Inside community, inside the Good Inside app, we're going to share some stories from members. And if you have a story you want to share with other parents, we would love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, podcast@goodinside.com. And let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]