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Good Inside with Dr. BeckyGood Inside with Dr. Becky

Why Modern Parenting Feels Impossible (and What to Do About It)

Modern parents are stretched to the limit: careers, childcare, and expectations keep growing, but the day is still only 24 hours long. In this episode, Dr. Becky and economist Dr. Corinne Low unpack the data behind parental exhaustion and share realistic ways to reclaim your time, reduce resentment, and feel more present in daily life. Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzk Your Good Inside membership might be eligible for HSA/FSA reimbursement! To learn more about how to get your membership reimbursed, check out the link here: https://www.goodinside.com/fsa-hsa-eligibility/ Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast Thank you to our sponsor Hot Wheels. Check out our full series with Hot Wheels at hotwheels.com/challengeaccepted Thank you to our sponsor, Airbnb — because during the holidays, it’s nice to love your family *and* have your own space. Find your getaway or host your home at airbnb.com/host Thank you to our sponsor DREO. Check out the DREO Baby Humidifier at https://bit.ly/3WtcliS and use code Becky20 for 20% off. At Good Inside, we’re shifting the narrative - away from instinct and toward education - because parenting isn’t something that just comes naturally. And the first step to real, cycle-breaking change? Understanding yourself—and the patterns you fall into. I’ve said it before: every parent has a pattern. But have you ever stopped to ask… what’s yours? Take the free quiz at http://goodinside.com/better to discover your parenting pattern.

Dr. Becky Kennedyhost
Nov 4, 202539mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:07

    The “having it all” myth: the perfect-parent image vs. the messy reality

    1. BK

      If you're a mom, you have probably felt pressure to have it all. What does that mean? I'm a present parent. I have a supportive and connective relationship. I cook the healthy meals. I show up at every drop-off, and maybe also I'm working outside of the home, and my picture of my family on the weekend looks perfect on Instagram. Okay, let's first myth bust. This human does not exist, and if you think I'm that human, you are sorely mistaken. Today, I'm talking to Dr. Corinne Low. She's incredible. She's an associate professor of economics at Wharton, but this is not a financially related episode. She actually has developed a framework for thinking about how women think through decisions and how we spend our time, and she focuses her studies on women and moms who think about this concept of having it all and helping us look at it differently so we can feel a little more free and a little more grounded in our values. Trust me, this is an episode that you are going to love, and that I think every parent needs. You're gonna end up saying, "Oh, my goodness. Yes," so many times. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Corinne.

    2. CL

      Hi. I am so happy to be here.

    3. BK

      I am so excited for you to be here about a topic... Like, I just have to say, when I saw the title of your book, I'm just gonna say it, Having It All: What Data Tells Us About Women's Lives and Getting the Most Out of Yours. I saw Having It All, and I was like, "This woman is gonna tell me how to have it all." Amazing.

    4. CL

      [laughs]

    5. BK

      Someone has finally cracked the code, and there's data involved.

    6. CL

      [laughs]

    7. BK

      So I feel like that's not exactly what's inside. So tell us a little bit about, about the book, but really about that phrase, having it all, how so many women, so many moms want to have it all. Does that just mean you're doing it all? I don't know.

    8. CL

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      Yeah, you go.

    10. CL

      And that's, I think, like, the cover of the book is so important to tell that story because we really wanted to show that we were being a little tongue-in-cheek with that phrase, having it all, because it's like having it all and there's all this stuff, but also dinner is on fire, and your heel is broken, and your coffee is spilled, and your baby is crying, [laughs] by the way. So we were like, you know, it's that having it all moment. For me, it's been when I've been pumping in planes, trains, and automobiles on book tour, and then I didn't seal one of my breast milk bags, and it leaked in my backpack.

    11. BK

      Ugh.

    12. CL

      And now my laptop [laughs] doesn't work. The screen is blacked out. So that's the, like, having it all, right? Because it is. It's a lot. It's all too much, and it's actually harder than ever right now for a lot of reasons that I actually didn't know until I started looking at the data.

    13. BK

      Hmm.

    14. CL

      And I really wanted to share that with people.

    15. BK

      So there's two different things. I wanna say one thing, but then maybe go in a different direction. That one image of Corinne, who just had a baby, who's a Wharton professor, who wrote this amazing book with all these accolades on book tour, like, headline picture on Instagram to someone who sees that is, "This woman has cracked the code. She has it all." And what's just so interesting is the micro-moment underneath. I'm pumping. I spill the milk onto my computer. I can't even get through, you know, this moment, and everything is kind of cracking underneath, and there's, there's such a big delta there.

    16. CL

      Yeah, yeah.

    17. BK

      So I just wanna say thank you for naming that. I think sometimes people, you know, say to me, "Oh, my goodness, you know, your career, and you're on book tour," and yeah, like, there's a fire somewhere, or there's a very neglected part of my life. Whenever I'm traveling for work-

    18. CL

      Mm-hmm

    19. BK

      ... which I love, like, I come back and my friends are like, "Hello?" Like, "You have not been around." And I'm like, "You're right. I haven't been around." And maybe I even miss one of their birthday dinners-

    20. CL

      Yeah, yeah

    21. BK

      ... or, you know, I have to spend extra time with my kids, and then that's not the same thing as spending time with your partner. I mean, there's just... It's so much.

    22. CL

      It is.

  2. 4:07 – 6:02

    What economics has to do with motherhood: maximizing under constraints

    1. BK

      So you are coming at this from the perspective of an economist.

    2. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      So tell me a little bit about that.

    4. CL

      So I study these issues because economics... I know people hear economics and they're like, "Finance. Is it stock? Are you gonna give me stock tips?"

    5. BK

      [laughs]

    6. CL

      I'm like, "Absol- I absolutely am not." Um, I study the economics of being a woman, and economics at its core, it's the science of maximizing subject to constraints, and if there's anybody who knows about maximizing subject to constraints, it's moms, [laughs] right?

    7. BK

      Yes.

    8. CL

      And so part of what the book tries to look at is to say, look, when you're trying to feel like you're having it all or trying to, you know, jam all of these things into your life, you've gotta figure out, what are you actually maximizing? Like, what is your goal here?

    9. BK

      Yep.

    10. CL

      Because as you said, we could pursue anything because there's always somebody who looks like they're having it all at any given moment, and we tend to just see that image.

    11. BK

      Yeah.

    12. CL

      We see the person with the successful career, and we're like, "Wait, why don't I have that?" We see the person whose house is, like, neat and tidy and well decorated.

    13. BK

      Ugh.

    14. CL

      We see the person who always cooks the most delicious, healthy meals.

    15. BK

      Ugh.

    16. CL

      We see the person who, you know, whose kids are always, like, [laughs] well-dressed and on time every single day, and, you know, everybody is smiling, right? And we just are trying to, like, take all of those and fit them all into a basket that's not big enough, and that is our time.

    17. BK

      So interesting. You know, one of the things that my husband has said to me [laughs] that's, um, not the most helpful way my brain works is I'll- I'll see people with certain things in their life, and I'll be like, "I want, I want that." And he's like, "You have this thing where you imagine, like, all the good things in your life transfer over-

    18. CL

      Yes

    19. BK

      ... and then you add that other thing."

    20. CL

      Yes, yes.

    21. BK

      Like, everything is additive.

    22. CL

      Yes.

    23. BK

      And I'm just... I feel like that's kind of- Along the lines of what you're saying.

  3. 6:02 – 8:53

    The time-crunch data: more work demands, stagnant housework split, intensified parenting

    1. CL

      Yeah. No, that's exactly right because there's trade-offs. That's why we talk about constraints. There are trade-offs, and especially with time. And so I'll just get into the data really quickly-

    2. BK

      Great

    3. CL

      ... that the reason our time doesn't feel like it's adding up is because for women who have careers, those careers are more demanding than ever, right? More and more workers are working greater than 50-hour week, 60-hour weeks, right? But men have not changed their roles at home. So as women have stepped into the labor force, men's time at home has actually stayed relatively constant. And I wanna talk about that, 'cause I know dads are listening, too, [laughs] and I really wanna talk about this, [laughs] um, 'cause no one ever asks men about having it all. But a lot of people don't know that men do the same amount of housework as they did in the 1970s, the same hours of housework.

    4. BK

      Huh. Meaning laundry, making sure the dishwasher's starting.

    5. CL

      Cooking, cleaning, um, uh, home management.

    6. BK

      Does that mean childcare, putting the kids to bed?

    7. CL

      It doesn't mean childcare.

    8. BK

      Okay, okay.

    9. CL

      So then the third fact of why all of this stuff isn't fitting in our time basket-

    10. BK

      Is it the kids?

    11. CL

      ... is that-

    12. BK

      It's the kids' fault

    13. CL

      ... time [laughs]

    14. BK

      Mm.

    15. CL

      It's not their fault.

    16. BK

      Okay.

    17. CL

      But it's that time with our kids skyrocketed starting in the 1990s.

    18. BK

      Mm.

    19. CL

      So moms today spend twice as much time with our children as moms a generation ago. And-

    20. BK

      I'm just, I'm trying to add up all the hours that you just, the work is more.

    21. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    22. BK

      The help is more.

    23. CL

      And that's why we're sleeping less and we have less leisure time.

    24. BK

      Huh.

    25. CL

      So and then the thing is with dads, by the way, dads are like, "Well, we're, we're spending more time, too," right? And they are actually. That's the-

    26. BK

      Mm.

    27. CL

      So housework hasn't changed. Dads' time in childcare has increased-

    28. BK

      Mm

    29. CL

      ... because we all spend so much more time with our kids, and I'll get into some of the reasons why. Um, but because women's time has increased more, the gender gap in the households has actually gotten larger, not smaller.

    30. BK

      Interesting.

  4. 8:53 – 12:05

    “It’s not just you”: why the math doesn’t math (and why that matters emotionally)

    1. CL

      Yeah. What it all is has changed, and that's why people who are listening, you're like, "Oh, I thought it was just me." And I thought it was just me.

    2. BK

      Mm.

    3. CL

      Like, I write this from a place of, like, it was me search, right? The research I did-

    4. BK

      Yes

    5. CL

      ... in this book, it was trying to understand my life, because I was exhausted all of the time, and I felt like I was falling behind my male colleagues at work, and I didn't feel like I had the space or time to be the type of mom I wanted to be. And I was like, "What is wrong with me," right? And then when I looked at the data, I was like, oh, well, my male colleagues at work aren't facing quite the same time constraint because they've got one of me at home kind of managing the invisible labor, right, and kind of keeping the household running. And in terms of the, the parenting, the type of parent I wanted to be was a type of parent that is much more intensively time available to my child-

    6. BK

      Mm. Yeah

    7. CL

      ... than my own mom or my own childhood, right? Um, every parent listening knows the bedtime routine. I love bedtime, the, like, I, I've come to love it. [laughs]

    8. BK

      [laughs]

    9. CL

      The, the processing highs and lows. You're reading stories.

    10. BK

      Yeah.

    11. CL

      Like, I love... Uh, uh, my older son is eight, and so I can feel it slipping away, and that's why, like, it, it, I used to resent it. Like, "Oh, God, I still have to lie here. He won't let me leave," kind of thing. And now I'm like, "The fact that he wants to, like, cuddle and tell me a story, I, like, I'm holding onto it." So but when I grew up in the 1980s, my bedtime routine was go to bed, [laughs] okay? Like, what we do with our kids has literally changed.

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. CL

      The parents in the '80s were not holding their babies. They were not doing extended breastfeeding and pumping [laughs] when they go back to work. They were not sitting on the floor doing enriching activities with their toddlers. They were not sitting at the kitchen table doing homework with their grade schoolers, and they weren't driving to travel soccer on weekends.

    14. BK

      And by the way, to the four practices during the week.

    15. CL

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    16. BK

      Uh, like, literally-

    17. CL

      Mm-hmm

    18. BK

      ... four practices, two tournaments, right, and one extra, you know, game on Sunday. I'm thinking about all this, and I'm just thinking about how many people listening, really, there is a deep breath of, "I'm not the only one."

    19. CL

      Yeah.

    20. BK

      Like, this is very real, and I'm not failing.

    21. CL

      Yeah.

    22. BK

      This isn't my fault. It's not like I'm someone who doesn't have my stuff together.

    23. CL

      Yeah, exactly.

    24. BK

      Um, I am trying to fit into a 24-hour day things that are truly more than 24 hours. Like, the math doesn't math.

    25. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    26. BK

      Uh, we can't change the number of hours in a day, right?

    27. CL

      Yeah.

    28. BK

      Um, and so I'm curious in your research, then, w- what's the alternative?

    29. CL

      So that's where we go back to what we started with, which is really figuring out what you're maximizing-

    30. BK

      Mm

  5. 12:05 – 12:44

    Trade-offs as values-clarifiers: stop pretending everything is additive

    1. BK

      So let's keep going on that because, you know- I actually used to be someone, and what I used to say is, "I hate trade-offs," right?

    2. CL

      Mm.

    3. BK

      And I, I kind of would say, "I hate trade-offs," like, you know, 'cause I wanna have it all.

    4. CL

      Yeah.

    5. BK

      And then someone said something to me about how they describe trade-offs that really stuck with me, and I think... I'm thinking about it now 'cause I think it's really in line with what you're talking about. They said, "I love trade-offs." And I was like, "What? Why?" And they were like, "Trade-offs clarify-

    6. CL

      Mm-hmm

    7. BK

      ... what my values are, and it's always really helpful to know what my values are."

    8. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BK

      And when I thought about trade-offs that way-

    10. CL

      Mm-hmm

    11. BK

      ... it, it gave me, like, a new, a new perspective.

  6. 12:44 – 15:16

    Utility functions for real life: defining what you value (without a ‘right answer’)

    1. CL

      Bingo. Well, I think, like, your friend was thinking like an economist [laughs] because that's exactly right. Like, we, we think about what you're maximizing as something called your utility function, okay? So I'm gonna go into-

    2. BK

      Ooh, I love this.

    3. CL

      You're gonna feel-

    4. BK

      Give me the class. I'm in your Wharton class right now.

    5. CL

      [laughs]

    6. BK

      I love it.

    7. CL

      Exactly. You're in my intro MBA class. Um, so what is a utility function? It's like your individual profit function because when we think about firms, they're maximizing profit, and they're maximizing profit subject to the constraints of how much they have to pay people, how much their inputs cost, who's gonna buy their stuff, right? Well, individuals are maximizing utility, but the difference between utility and profit is that any accountant could look at a firm's profit and agree a- about the same. Say, like, "Look, this is how much profit they made." But nobody could actually say how much utility you're getting from something because nobody from the outside knows what your values are. It's individual. It's personal. Utility is the sum total of the joy, fulfillment, meaning, and contentment that you can fit into a lifetime, and the sources of those things and how much weight you place on each of them is only known to you.

    8. BK

      So, so beautiful what you're saying, and what it makes me think about is something I hear from people all the time, especially women. I think there's a lot of reasons for this, but I, I don't actually really know what I want. I don't really know-

    9. CL

      Mm-hmm

    10. BK

      ... what I value.

    11. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    12. BK

      And I think this is so core to so much of what we're really talking about. It's almost easier to be like, "Well, that person works this job-

    13. CL

      Yeah

    14. BK

      ... and seems to like that, so maybe that's what I want. Wait, this person spends these days with her kids at soccer and, and actually maybe that's what I want."

    15. CL

      Yeah.

    16. BK

      And sometimes we have to try things on to know.

    17. CL

      Yeah.

    18. BK

      I love that. But at the core, there is no barometer. There is no blood test for you are making decisions that are in line with your values, good job. It's something that we have to kind of practice figuring out and getting to the core of ourself.

    19. CL

      I think you're so right, and I think another thing that we tend to do is just mistake what other people want and caring for them and helping them get what they want for what we want, and that can be part of how we end up so exhausted because if we don't know what we value, it's just like, "What makes my kids happy? What makes my friends happy? What makes my boss happy?" And we just run ourselves ragged chasing their utility functions.

    20. BK

      Ooh. And then we get rageful and resentful-

    21. CL

      Yes, yes

    22. BK

      ... and sick.

  7. 15:16 – 18:36

    The billionaire visualization: uncovering unconstrained values, then reapplying constraints

    1. CL

      Yes.

    2. BK

      And sick.

    3. CL

      And sick, absolutely. So here's the exercise I'm gonna tell you.

    4. BK

      Great.

    5. CL

      And it feels a little wistful to do it, but it's worth it, okay? The exercise is really close your eyes and picture what would your life look like if you were a mega billionaire, you were independently wealthy, money were no object, okay? So what would your life look like? How would you spend your time? What would your house look like? What would your days feel like? Okay? What would your relationships feel like? That's what you value. That's unconstrained maximization. All of that stuff that you pictured is what you are maximizing subject to con- the constraints, the reality, and the reality is, okay, if some of the things you pictured are things that you buy with money, well, that's why you have a job, because your job turns your time into money, right?

    6. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CL

      But when I tell people to picture that, a lot of the women who will say, "Oh, I love my job. It's so important to me. It's so fulfilling," in that picture where they are unconstrained, they might be doing that job for, like, 10 hours a week or 15 hours a week, but they're not doing it for 60 hours a week. They're not doing it for 70 hours a week, right? A lot of times what people picture is time with their loved ones, right? Time with their kids, time to be fully present, um, time with their friends and their partner, and if we put all of our time into the money machine, into our careers, it takes away from the time we can spend on those other things.

    8. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CL

      So if you can get in touch with, okay, this is what I value, this is what I'm pursuing, then you can figure out how to invest your time to say, "Okay, yes, some of what I valued, some of what I pictured was stuff that I need to buy. I wanna take a nice vacation, right? I wanna not worry about being able to fix the car, right?"

    10. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CL

      "And for those things, I have to turn my time into money, but because I value all these other things I do with my time, I have to figure out how to turn my time into money as efficiently as possible." And we've almost been brainwashed to view our careers as, like, the end in themselves, like that's the purpose of your life, and I feel like that's kind of the lean in era. It was like this is what you're maximizing. You're maximizing your salary. You're maximizing prestige.

    12. BK

      Mm.

    13. CL

      You're maximizing accolades, right? But when you actually picture what you value, those things do not get you everything that you value, right?

    14. BK

      Mm.

    15. CL

      Because some of the things that you value you need time for.

    16. BK

      It's so interesting. And, and look, there's, there's realities we all live with. I imagine someone thinking, "Okay, like, the life I have now, which I do like, or the school I send my kids to, the neighborhood, it requires me working-

    17. CL

      Yeah

    18. BK

      ... a 50-hour-a-week job."

    19. CL

      Yeah.

    20. BK

      But still, I think the exercise isn't to imagine that you have an unconstrained life. Like, no one really has that. Like, we don't have that. None of our listeners, I think, really have that, okay? But the exercise clarifies what you value. Which might give you more direction.

    21. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    22. BK

      Let's just say you're thinking, "I, I have to have this job of working this many hours a week."

    23. CL

      Mm.

    24. BK

      Well, in the other hours, it might just clarify like how you really wanna spend that time.

    25. CL

      Yeah.

    26. BK

      What really, really matters, and a little bit on the margin, "Do I need to be on Slack right now?"

    27. CL

      Yeah.

    28. BK

      "Can I put my computer away, my phone away? Can I be fully present for 20 minutes for dinner instead of distracted for 40 minutes for dinner?" Whatever it is.

    29. CL

      Yeah.

  8. 18:36 – 20:43

    Calendars as value systems: protecting what matters with real-world boundaries

    1. BK

      Right? Can I... I, I always think about my calendar as my value system.

    2. CL

      Mm.

    3. BK

      Anybody who knows me knows I take my calendar very seriously.

    4. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      Because I do what my calendar tells me.

    6. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BK

      But I have to have a lot of agency in that.

    8. CL

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      So as someone who's now working and feeling very lit up by that, I do wanna still see my friends. Okay, if I don't put in a lunch-

    10. CL

      Absolutely

    11. BK

      ... or a dinner with my friends weeks in advance-

    12. CL

      Yeah

    13. BK

      ... my calendar will fill up.

    14. CL

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      And so I have to do that.

    16. CL

      Yeah.

    17. BK

      Or my son's, you know, sports game in the calendar. And so now when someone says, "Oh, can you meet 3:30 on Thursday?" I'm like, "Oh, I can't. I can do this time instead," because it's-

    18. CL

      Yeah

    19. BK

      ... my, my calendar's kind of a force function for making me-

    20. CL

      Yeah

    21. BK

      ... represent what I really care about.

    22. CL

      Well, you have figured out a physical manifestation of the idea of investing your time in what you value, right? Is that by blocking it out in your calendar, you are saying, "I'm investing this much time."

    23. BK

      Yes.

    24. CL

      "And I'm not letting some other s- thing eat that time up," right?

    25. BK

      That's exactly it. Yes. And the other thing about the calendar that I just have to say to you and to everyone else is even though I say I do what my calendar tells me, I'm the boss of my calendar.

    26. CL

      Yes.

    27. BK

      So like often, you know, someone will say, "Hey, can you come out to dinner this night?"

    28. CL

      Yeah.

    29. BK

      And I look at my calendar two Wednesdays from now, and I just wanna be very concrete, and I'm like, "Oh, I'm free on Wednesday night." Doesn't mean I'm gonna say yes.

    30. CL

      Mm-hmm.

  9. 20:43 – 24:00

    Redefining leisure: “the first beneficiary is you”

    1. CL

      Yeah, absolutely, and that's actually like one of the strategies I tell people to do in the book, is like actually take your leisure time, and what I mean by leisure time is something that actually serves your utility function-

    2. BK

      Ugh

    3. CL

      ... as a primary purpose, okay? So when people say like, "Oh yeah, this is my leisure time. I was helping my friend," or, "This is my leisure time. I was baking cookies for my kid's class," that's [laughs] not actually your leisure time, right? That, that's called parenting, that one, right? [laughs] That was part of your parenting time. So when I say leisure time, I mean something where the first beneficiary is actually you, which is really hard for us to do and do.

    4. BK

      I love that language. The first beneficiary. It's, it's actually such a concrete way of visualizing it.

    5. CL

      Yeah.

    6. BK

      Tell me more. And how do we mistake, how do we mistake that?

    7. CL

      Yeah, well, 'cause I think s- we say like, "Well, I love baking cookies for my kid," right? And I understand that you love it, and that's great because then that's a way to show your love.

    8. BK

      Hmm.

    9. CL

      'Cause you can't... Y- you don't wanna fill up your basket with all the things that everybody else is doing to show their love. You wanna pick the one that you love.

    10. BK

      Yeah.

    11. CL

      And if you love baking cookies, bake the cookies. If you love practicing soccer, practice soccer. If you love bedtime, do the extended bedtime, right? But that's great, but that's still not leisure time, okay? And at the end of the day, the week, the year, and the years of our life, if we don't take leisure time to fill our own cup, we cannot be relaxed. We cannot be happy.

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. CL

      We cannot be present and patient and joyful with our kids. We can't parent a la Dr. Becky and all the great advice we're getting because we're just so depleted. And so for me, like the biggest cure for my mom guilt was seeing my relationship with my son blossom when I was getting my needs met, that I was such a better parent when my cup was full, that that was what he needed more than all of the other things I was trying to give him that were making things not add up.

    14. BK

      Okay, two questions. First, let's say someone's thinking, "Even if my kid didn't have to bring cookies the next day, or if my kid was on a field trip overnight, I'd be baking those cookies anyway."

    15. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    16. BK

      Is that an example of someone who's like, "Oh, maybe that is for me. I just-"

    17. CL

      Yeah, yeah. Then it's for me. Then it's like, "I actually like this. I'm the first kind of recipient of the benefit of this." And the same thing if you're like, "Well, you know, going and helping my friend garden, it was actually first for me because I actually love getting outside."

    18. BK

      Yeah.

    19. CL

      "And I like having someone to talk to," right? But you know, are you the first, the primary [laughs] beneficiary of this or not? And that's what I mean by leisure time, and I want you to block that out the same way you block out the appointment for your kid's soccer game.

    20. BK

      Yeah.

    21. CL

      The, you know, podcast taping or the meeting with your boss.

    22. BK

      Yeah.

    23. CL

      Because you, moms who are listening and the dads who are listening too, who if you feel stretched for time, you're a member of your household.

    24. BK

      Yeah.

    25. CL

      We so often forget that like Mom is a member of the household, and it, that was a huge mistake that I made in my own life and how I got to the point of being so depleted where I ended up making big changes. You can read about them in the book. Um, [laughs] but I forgot that to even consider my own needs in the equation, and if something is not working for you, it's not working for the family.

    26. BK

      Yeah.

    27. CL

      Because you're part of the family.

  10. 24:00 – 28:13

    Why ‘me first’ triggers guilt—and why discomfort can signal growth, not wrongness

    1. BK

      Yeah. You know, I find this phrase you just said very provocative, and I like things that are provocative 'cause it gets our body to respond and, you know, remember. I just keep hearing in my head, "First for me."

    2. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      What do I do in my life that is first for me? And, and the reason I like the language is it sounds so close to selfish.

    4. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      Like, and, and so many of us have been trained to think self-care is selfish.

    6. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BK

      First for me is selfish.

    8. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BK

      Right? Um, and again, we don't have to think in extremes. You don't need to be first for me with 100% of your time.

    10. CL

      Yeah.

    11. BK

      Like I always, you know, say when I talk about self-care as a mom, I'm not really talking about you going to Paris for three years-

    12. CL

      Yeah. [laughs]

    13. BK

      ... and be like, "Hey, guys. I just need to live in Paris for three years."

    14. CL

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      "See you, see you when you're 15."

    16. CL

      Me time. [laughs]

    17. BK

      No, obviously. But that is what we imagine-

    18. CL

      Mm-hmm

    19. BK

      ... when we think about saying to our kid-

    20. CL

      Mm-hmm

    21. BK

      ... "No, you can't come with me for a walk around the block," because the whole point is that I'm not with you for my walk around the block.

    22. CL

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    23. BK

      Right? Um, and we do kind of equate the emotionality of that as if I'm saying to my kid, "I'm going to Paris for three years."

    24. CL

      Yeah.

    25. BK

      "Fend for yourself."

    26. CL

      Yeah. [laughs]

    27. BK

      Um, and so I just love our listeners right now, or viewers, thinking about the phrase first for me. I am doing something first for me, and I like saying it boldly-

    28. CL

      Yeah

    29. BK

      ... 'cause I want people to be uncomfortable.

    30. CL

      Okay.

  11. 28:13 – 29:21

    Modeling for the next generation: self-preservation as gender-equality work

    1. CL

      ... which is that when people hear the stats about, you know, men not doing as much in the household and how that really needs to change, we're like, well, part of it is how we parent our boys, right? And there's things we can do when parenting our boys proactively and bringing them into the work of the household, but actually, a huge thing that you can do to change this for the next generation is protect your own needs and recognize yourself as a person who has feelings and desires and a m- and a multiplicity of desires within the household. Because if you let yourself become an angry, empty, depleted shell in service of your children and your family, you are modeling for your sons that they can expect that of their wives.

    2. BK

      Uh, 100% yes, like right on the nose, that kids learn from what we do, not from what we say. So you can have all the good conversations, but if your kid's watching you run into, run yourself into the ground-

    3. CL

      Mm-hmm

    4. BK

      ... in the name of love, then that's just modeling what a loving relationship is, which is not what we want.

    5. CL

      So you can think of yourself as a warrior for gender equality-

    6. BK

      Oh, love that

    7. CL

      ... when you actually take care of yourself.

  12. 29:21 – 34:42

    How to talk to kids about your needs without parentifying them

    1. BK

      I love that. And just to make that one more level concrete for people, you know, I'll use myself as an example. So I'm going on a girls' trip in a couple of weeks with some of my, you know, friends. Um, and now my kids are used to me, you know, traveling for work or different things, but when this started, like the first time, of course, I was like, "Oh, my goodness."

    2. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      And you're always missing something, you know? Oh, you know, I wanna be there for even this, the night before my kid's test, whatever it is, right? And I remember one of the times when early on my kid said, "Oh," like, "what? You're going away for," you know, I don't know-

    4. CL

      Yeah

    5. BK

      ... "three, four nights," whatever it was. Um, "Why are you doing that?"

    6. CL

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      "And why can't we come with you?"

    8. CL

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      And I think sometimes in these situations, because we're uncomfortable, we kind of put something parentified on our kids.

    10. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BK

      "Don't you want me to be happy?"

    12. CL

      Right, right.

    13. BK

      Like, oh, ish, right?

    14. CL

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      And it's so unsturdy.

    16. CL

      Yeah.

    17. BK

      You know? And so I remember hearing myself say, "I love being your mom. I, I love it. I love our time together."

    18. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    19. BK

      "I love putting you to bed at night."

    20. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    21. BK

      "Like, I love, you know, the dinners and those conversations-"

    22. CL

      Mm-hmm

    23. BK

      ... "and the Play-Doh," all the things, okay? And- I love the time I have with my girlfriends. Or if it-

    24. CL

      Mm-hmm

    25. BK

      ... I love going out to dinner-

    26. CL

      Mm-hmm

    27. BK

      ... with your dad when it's just the two of us.

    28. CL

      Mm-hmm.

    29. BK

      It's inherently different.

    30. CL

      Mm-hmm.

  13. 34:42 – 37:58

    Practical first steps: remove one thing from your plate (delegate, outsource, or drop it)

    1. CL

      So one is that I want you to find something that you're going to actually take off your plate, okay?

    2. BK

      Mm.

    3. CL

      And that could be because you're going to reallocate it to your partner, right? And I talk in the book about, um, promoting our partners from low-level junior employees to co-CEOs of the household.

    4. BK

      Congratulations.

    5. CL

      Yeah, it's empowering. You say, "Guess what? You're getting a promotion." [laughs]

    6. BK

      Yes.

    7. CL

      "You're gonna take end-to-end ownership of the lunchboxes. Instead of me delegating it to you, you're gonna be in charge of, you know, the shopping and the packing and the cleaning up, and then you're gonna learn that if you send Wheat Thins instead of Triscuits, they come back uneaten, and it's not gonna be my job to tell you that, okay?"

    8. BK

      Yep.

    9. CL

      So giving your partners a promotion. Um, so it could because you're giving it to your partners. It could be because you are actually outsourcing it, and that can be a scary, charged word because people hear outsourcing and they hear, like, oh, uh, this and her, like, w- disposable income, who wants me to outsource, right? [laughs] But actually, what I want us to remember is that we're actually pretty comfortable outsourcing male-coded tasks and uncomfortable outsourcing-

    10. BK

      Ooh

    11. CL

      ... female-coded tasks. So even very modest income families, probably most of the people here listening, take their car to the mechanic for an oil change, and it's 70 bucks, 80 bucks, and everybody could do it themselves if they spend an hour on YouTube.

    12. BK

      [laughs]

    13. CL

      But we assign value to men's time, so we think it's normal to hire th- people for male-coded tasks.

    14. BK

      I, I just, this is one of the moments I wish I could snap. I don't, I actually am unable to snap because I would just be like-

    15. CL

      [laughs]

    16. BK

      ... snapping so hardcore right now. So I'm snapping in spirit.

    17. CL

      Yeah, so just, if there is something where, you know, you are not outsourcing, it means hiring yourself to do it.

    18. BK

      Yep. [sighs]

    19. CL

      And you know, just like the mechanic, sometimes it's okay to bring in an expert, an outside expert for something, rather than hire yourself.

    20. BK

      Yeah.

    21. CL

      And then the last thing is then maybe t- There's some stuff that you just don't do, and I call this throwing out your houseplants, okay? Because all of my houseplants are dying, okay? I'm on book tour, and they make me feel guilty and like a failure. And I would-

    22. BK

      Those plants.

    23. CL

      [laughs] Yeah. And I would love to be the type of person that has, like, the herb garden on the windowsill that I can, like, snip the fresh herbs and sprinkle them on the chicken or whatever, right? And maybe I'm not gonna be that person right now, right? Right now in this chapter of my life, it's a period that I call the squeeze, where everything is pushing down at once. Maybe that's not who I am, and that's okay. And so finding a houseplant to throw out, something you're just saying, "I'm gonna put this down right now," right?

    24. BK

      Yes.

    25. CL

      "Because all of this doesn't fit in my time basket."

    26. BK

      Yes.

    27. CL

      That's okay. So I hope that's the, the one thing I would ask everyone to do, is to just find something to get off of your plate through one of those different strategies.

    28. BK

      It's so actionable and so helpful and possible. Um, thank you. This has been an amazing conversation. I can't wait to talk to you about so many more things in the future.

    29. CL

      [laughs]

    30. BK

      This was so helpful, and thank you for your really important work.

  14. 37:58 – 39:53

    Dr. Becky’s closing takeaways: houseplants, outsourcing bias, and boundary skills

    1. BK

      I have so many takeaways from this conversation, but I'm gonna talk about the three that are kind of loudest in my mind. Number one, this idea of throwing out a houseplant I just find so actionable. Is there something we can all just say, "I'm not gonna do that in this season of my life"? This week, try it. Experiment, and just see what happens. Number two, this idea that we think about outsourcing traditionally male tasks completely differently than we think about outsourcing traditionally female tasks has got me really thinking. Actually, right after recording, Corinne and I were talking about the idea of hiring a professional organizer, and she knows someone who does it for $50 an hour, which is less money than the per hour cost of getting an oil change. And so just think about that a little bit. And number three, I just keep thinking about the importance of boundaries. At the end of the day, our ability to carve out time for ourself, to have hard conversations with our partner, and definitely to tolerate the pushback and the whining and the meltdowns that might come from our kids, it all comes down to, do I know the skill of setting and holding a boundary? And a lot of you know that's actually my favorite skill to teach, and I just keep thinking about how important that is. All right. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]

Episode duration: 39:54

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