Your Kid Is Already Creative: What Parents Get Wrong About Imagination | Austin Kleon & Dr. Becky

Austin Kleon 0:00 I can't get this out of my head, so I'm just gonna tell you. You know the game I played when I was bottomed out the most, I read about during the pandemic: what's on my butt? Do you know what's on my butt? [laughs]

Dr. Becky 0:11 What is it?

Austin Kleon 0:12 [laughs] Do you wanna hear about the game? Um-

Dr. Becky 0:14 I do

Austin Kleon 0:14 ... you lay down f- flat, flat, flat on the couch or on the bed. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky 0:21 [laughs]

Austin Kleon 0:21 You lay down, you close your eyes, and the kids put something on your butt, [laughs] and you get to guess-

Dr. Becky 0:30 What's on my butt

Austin Kleon 0:30 ... what it is. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 0:33 Raise a creative kid. Every parent I talk to is being told that right now. Raise a creative kid. Protect their imagination. Nothing's gonna matter in the world going forward except for originality. It's on every podcast, every parenting account, every school newsletter. And then I read Austin Kleon's new book, and it felt initially counterintuitive and then retrospectively obvious, because Austin's whole argument is your kid already has it, the imagination, the originality, the creativity. It's not something we have to install in them. We don't have to give it to them. It's something they came with. And so the question isn't how to put it in there or build it. The question, what we're really gonna be talking about today, and it's mind-blowing stuff, but also remarkably simple, is how do we kind of just create the conditions to preserve it and for our kid to access it? And then there's also a little bit of a deeper question, which I think you're gonna appreciate: do we have access to ours? And guess what? We also talk about how we can re-access it in small, totally manageable ways. Austin's the writer behind Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work, Keep Going, books that have taught a generation of adults how to make things. His new one, Don't Call It Art, didn't come from inspiration at an art school. It came from his kitchen table, inspiration from his kids. Let me also just tell you that I haven't had so much fun talking to someone in a while. I think you'll hear it in my voice. I think you'll hear it in the stories I end up telling. There was something just so playful about this conversation, and I think you're gonna end up having a little playfulness and joy in yourself as you listen. I'm Dr. Becky. This is Good Inside. Let's get into it. Austin, I feel like parents right now are kind of being sold creativity like it's something to install. Okay? [laughs] Like workshops, kits, classes, framework, scripts, everything, and I feel like your book kind of says some version of, like, "Stop." [laughs]

Austin Kleon 2:34 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 2:34 Um, your kid has it. You don't need to install it. And to some degree, maybe it's us, the parents, who lost it or lo- lost access to it. I don't know. Like, is that at all accurate? Tell me more.

Austin Kleon 2:51 Yeah. I mean, people kept asking me, "Well, when are you gonna do a creativity book for kids?" And I said, "Well, kids don't need a book. We're the ones that need a book to be more, like, creative like them," you know? Most of the time, parents, when it comes to creative stuff with their kids, they just get in the way, you know, 'cause you can't really teach a kid to create, be creative. What you do is you set the conditions for them to be creative in.

Dr. Becky 3:14 Mm.

Austin Kleon 3:15 You know, creating those conditions for my own kids was what, like, kinda lit up a light bulb for myself. I was like, "Wait a minute. Why- If I'm giving my kids this time, space, and materials, like, how come I n- don't do that for myself in the studio?" I feel like great bands know this, you know?

Dr. Becky 3:31 Mm.

Austin Kleon 3:31 Like, you, you, like, you get in the studio. You, like, set up the vibes. You get the amps set up. You get the drums set up. You do all that. You create the conditions, but then what comes out of it, it's like the more you focus on that, the more you're gonna get gummed up, and you're gonna, like, kinda like, you know, freeze up, you know?

Dr. Becky 3:51 Yeah. Like, you're saying the band, the more they're saying, "Okay, was that it? Was that the hit? Was that gonna be great?"

Austin Kleon 3:55 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 3:55 "How about we do it now?"

Austin Kleon 3:56 Right.

Dr. Becky 3:56 "Are we gonna do it now? How..." You're like, "The vibes are off, guys, and the vibes are real."

Austin Kleon 4:00 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 4:00 That's what you're saying. The vibes are real. You gotta trust the vibes a little.

Austin Kleon 4:03 The vibes are real, and what we know-

Dr. Becky 4:05 [laughs]

Austin Kleon 4:05 ... about great bands is a lot of their big hits came from them goofing off. You know? Like, a, a lot... You know, Radiohead is like, "Uh, you know, I have this song. It's kinda weird. It's about being a creep," and then it becomes their biggest hit, you know? Led Zeppelin is like, "Eh, we got this weird song called Stairway to Heaven. It's not like our other stuff," you know? But it's like something that you learn... That's, like, something that my kids taught me, is it's like it's really when you're messing around that the most creative stuff happens, and I think this is what's really hard for parents, is that kids tend to be their most creative when they're really supposed to be doing something else. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 4:39 100%. I, I wanna share a story that's coming to mind, and then I have so many questions for you, okay? But-

Austin Kleon 4:45 Please

Dr. Becky 4:45 ... it, it's crazy what just connected in my brain, okay? Because I think one of my all-time best parenting strategies that I've ever come up with with my own kid, I wanna tell you how it happened, okay?

Austin Kleon 4:55 Okay.

Dr. Becky 4:55 I'm looking at my team in the studio. Get ready, guys, 'cause this is... I'm gonna model this, and you're gonna laugh at me for the rest of my life. Okay. So my youngest was stalling brushing his teeth because he's a kid, because all the things you don't want. I get it. I had tried all the things, all the things, Austin, okay? It was so many nights in a row. So this is what I started saying. Talk about messing around. I go, "Ugh, have I ever told you about this game? I can't even tell you about this game." And of course, he's like four. He's like, "Okay, tell, tell me about the game." And what might be clear to you is I had no idea what was gonna come out of my mouth. I, I was just stalling. "I can't tell you. It's so ridiculous. I- Nope, can't tell you. And tell..." I was like, "Okay. Okay. Well, this game is called..." I'm like, "What am I gonna say? I'm messing around. I don't know what I'm doing." Brush-a, brush-a, brush, brush. I... Literally, okay?

Austin Kleon 5:47 Good title.

Dr. Becky 5:48 So I wanna play brush-a, brush-a, brush, brush.

Austin Kleon 5:50 Me too. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 5:50 I was like, "I bet you do. I bet you do." I don't even know if I'm gonna t- Okay, fine. "Well, I'm gonna brush your teeth, and let me just show you. Let me demonstrate." So now... And I'm gonna start saying- Brush-a brush-a bruce bruce, brush-a brush-a bruce, brush-a brush-a bruce bruce. And I do it, and I go, "But then you have to listen. And when I go to a different pattern, brush-a brush-a bruce, you're gonna run, and you're gonna have to spit it out in the sink before I touch the sink." And then I can't even tell you, my older kids, "Mom, why don't you play brush-a brush-a bruce bruce with me?" I, I literally was like, I messed around. I had... I was stalling. I can't- I don't even know. It... Can't even tell you how many Good Inside members go, "Of all your str- that is, that has saved my life, brush-a brush-a bruce bruce. If you know, you know." And I'm just thinking about my... I'm gonna... Like, my random creativity. Does that count as creativity? I don't know. [laughs] But how it came in this total, spontaneous, stalling, not knowing, uncertain, messing around moment.

Austin Kleon 6:59 Perfect.

Dr. Becky 7:00 [laughs]

Austin Kleon 7:00 A- and I think the inciting incident was you saying, you saying, "Hey, have I ever told you about this game?" And you have to deliver now, right? You've engaged.

Dr. Becky 7:12 Ugh.

Austin Kleon 7:12 That's the inciting incident in the story.

Dr. Becky 7:14 I created a container.

Austin Kleon 7:15 You created the conditions-

Dr. Becky 7:17 Mm

Austin Kleon 7:17 ... under which the game was made. So, like, that creates the-

Dr. Becky 7:22 Ugh

Austin Kleon 7:24 ... like, that creates the space then that you have to-

Dr. Becky 7:26 Yes

Austin Kleon 7:26 ... fill the void, right?

Dr. Becky 7:28 And-

Austin Kleon 7:28 There's a void now

Dr. Becky 7:29 ... and I wanna link it back to something you said. Kids are the most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else. I have a question, truly. This is, like, a new insight. Was I my most creative in that moment? 'Cause in some ways, parenting lore says, "Give your, give your kid a threat." I'm supposed to be threatening. I'm supposed to be exerting my authority, and I kind of opened up this container for something totally different. Like, I wonder if that's similar to... I want you to tell me more about kids are more the most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else.

Austin Kleon 7:57 I think what you were doing is you were being, you were doing the thing that great artists do and great storytellers do, which is, "Hey, have you ever heard of this, of this game? Have you ever heard of this story?" And you're, "What? Wait, what's the story?" I mean, like, it's, it's the hook. Like, that-

Dr. Becky 8:12 It's the hook

Austin Kleon 8:12 ... it's the hook. You've given them a hook now.

Dr. Becky 8:15 Mm.

Austin Kleon 8:15 I've got you now. And then, y- you know, so I think that's what you were doing right there, is you were kinda doing what the artist does. 'Cause people think about art and creative work as being this one-way street where the artist just makes stuff and puts it out there, but just like a... Like, I write books, and books are nothing without the reader.

Dr. Becky 8:34 Yes. Okay, take me back to, I, I just kept thinking in your work, the kids that we label as problems-

Austin Kleon 8:40 Hm

Dr. Becky 8:40 ... and that line, kids are most creative when they're supposed to be doing something else. So kids we label as defiant, uncooperative, dramatic, too much, um, I... Is, is that creativity where, with nowhere to go? Is that creativity about to be unlocked? Tell me.

Austin Kleon 8:56 Oh, I don't know. I was a good boy, and, like, I was a, I was a very, like, um... I was not, I was a straight-A student. I was, like, a very, like, good boy, but I didn't do anything good until I stopped being good. [laughs] Right? Like, I didn't really find my work until I was able to do that bad boy stuff-

Dr. Becky 9:17 Mm

Austin Kleon 9:17 ... that I didn't do when I was a kid, you know? And it's-

Dr. Becky 9:19 Wait, like, what didn't you do? Like, tell me about the-

Austin Kleon 9:21 So, like, I, you know, I was, I was, I was, like, a good boy. I got good grades and, like, you know, and, and, like, didn't go out and party much and that kind of thing-

Dr. Becky 9:30 Mm

Austin Kleon 9:30 ... you know, and, and did what, you know, my parents expected of me and that kind of thing. The most creative things I did, though, were when I was younger, I played in a band, and that was kind of the safe space where I could be a little bit wilder and stuff. But, you know, my parents always encouraged me, too, so it's not like I was really going out on a limb. It was really, like, when, with my own creative work, it's when I got out of the structure of school that I really discovered the things that were really unique to me, and I could kind of, like, be bad. And when I say be bad, it's like do the things that weren't serious, right? 'Cause, like, my stu- like, my books have pictures and words in them, right? Well, you know, if you're in a creative writing workshop and you turn in a story with pictures in it, they're gonna say, like, "What is this? This is supposed to be in, like, 12-point Times New Roman," you know? So I don't know. I mean, I do think that, like, what an art museum is for is you go into the art museum, and you have an encounter with a work of art, and you see things the way that the artist sees things, and then you're supposed to go out in the world and have that way of seeing. Like, everybody knows what it's like to, like, like, witness a really great work of art, and then you come out, and you're like, "Wow, it looks like a Rembrandt out here," or something, you know? Kids skip right over that part because they're already seeing the world in these kinda, like, artist, psychedelic terms. They're already seeing the world as a work of art with the exit signs. And so that was, like, a really, that was a really, really good, um, moment for me.

Dr. Becky 10:59 I wanna zoom into that moment, 'cause I'm just thinking, and I'm sure you get it, too, and maybe this is, like, child Austin meeting now liberated adult Austin. But there's this moment, you're like, "I took... I don't know. I took the day off work. I bought these tickets. I go to this vacation. I'm at the Met. I'm at w- whatever museum," okay?

Austin Kleon 11:16 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 11:16 "And I took my kids here, and I want them to appreciate the X," because everyone appreciates whatever the X stands for. Okay. And then you see your kid, a- and I think the short-circuited thought is, "My kid, my kid's ungrateful. My kid's uncooperative. My kid doesn't get it."

Austin Kleon 11:34 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 11:35 Right? And d- that's one response, okay?

Austin Kleon 11:38 Sure.

Dr. Becky 11:39 And we all have said it. I've said it, right? I've thought it at least, and I've said it, okay? What, just what is going on in your head maybe? Maybe you've earned this, or now this is more natural, but just to model it, what's a different set of thoughts a parent might have for that kid in that moment?

Austin Kleon 11:55 One of my favorite moments of all time is I was, I, I got to lead around a group of kids one time, and this was before I had kids, and we were in an art museum. And I said You know you don't have to know how you l- why you like things? And they all looked at me, and they're like, "What?" I was like, "You don't have to know how you like, or, like, why you like things. You know, your teachers, they're gonna ask you after this, you know, you go look at a piece of art, they're gonna say, 'Now write me an essay about why you like this thing.' But you know what? You don't have to know right away. You just have to sit with it and like it." And they were so excited, yeah. "Wow, this guy's really crazy" [laughs] .

Dr. Becky 12:29 But I think you're, uh, eh, eh, I mean, I think what you're saying is kinda the opposite of crazy, 'cause what you're saying to a kid is, um, you can trust a signal in your body before your-

Austin Kleon 12:39 Yeah

Dr. Becky 12:39 ... brain makes sense of it.

Austin Kleon 12:40 Exactly. They are taking in the world without the, the bra- L- yeah, they're getting that raw input and having a response to it, which is exactly what we lose as we get older, and what artists manage to have. And it's an opportunity then to be like, "Who do you think made the exit sign?"

Dr. Becky 13:00 Mm.

Austin Kleon 13:01 "How do we find that out? Do you think-

Dr. Becky 13:02 Mm-hmm

Austin Kleon 13:02 ... the building next door has different exit signs?" You know, and then it becomes-

Dr. Becky 13:06 Mm

Austin Kleon 13:06 ... this exploration, this opportunity.

Dr. Becky 13:09 Yeah.

Austin Kleon 13:09 You know.

Dr. Becky 13:10 A- and I think what you're saying too, which is, I always find when I do this with my kids, they have the-- Whenever I tell them something I'm learning from them, or they're helping me with, ugh, they light up. So I, I think from your example, I could say, "Sometimes when I go to a museum, I only let myself like the things I think I'm supposed to like. It's kind of, like, pretty basic of me. And so [laughs] I'm gonna try to wander around and just, like, see what happens." Like, I'm learning that from you, right? I, I just, I don't know. I, [laughs] like, I would feel so good as a parent if I said that. Like, I would feel like that was meaningful, you know?

Austin Kleon 13:48 Yeah. I let, and it's like, "Why don't you pick us something to look at?" You know?

Dr. Becky 13:53 Oh, yes.

Austin Kleon 13:53 Put them in the, giving them the autonomy, giving them the, the power in the situation. "Why don't you lead?"

Dr. Becky 13:59 Ugh.

Austin Kleon 14:00 You know?

Dr. Becky 14:00 Yes. Okay. You, you talk a lot about learning things from kids, and there's this moment in your book where your son makes a drawing you think is perfect, okay? And then he throws it away-

Austin Kleon 14:12 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 14:12 ... and starts another one.

Austin Kleon 14:13 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 14:13 So can you first just walk me through, if we had that moment on, like, 0.2x so it's really slowed down, what's going on as you're noticing it, w- what you're feeling during it, just, like, what's going on inside you?

Austin Kleon 14:28 I mean, [laughs] it was happening so much is the thing [laughs] . It was like, I mean, my k- like I would literally, my son Jules, who still draws and draws in his sketchbook more than most artists I know, like, he would draw 50 drawings a day. You know? I mean, we would go through a whole ream of copy paper, like, in a couple of days. And so it was happening so much that there were times where I almost got desensitized to it, you know? It's like, "Oh yeah, he's drawing. Yeah, that's Jules. He's drawing another drawing", you know? But, like, the interesting thing to me was just the shock of, like, you can make something so cool, and then just be like, "Mm-hmm. Pow. Do another one" Because I thought, "I can't do that. I can't do that in the studio." If I make something great, like, I'll be like, "Oh, wow, I gotta scan this and put this up on Instagram," or like, you know, whatever it is. I can't be like, "Yeah, cool. All right, let's make another one." You know? I, and, and s- with Jules it was also, like, I was watching him, and I was like, he, he had this really fun way of drawing where he would draw a little bit, and then he would pump his fists. "Yeah." Like, he, like, "Yes, look at what we're doing here," you know?

Dr. Becky 15:45 [laughs]

Austin Kleon 15:45 And then he'd go back at it, and he'd be like, "Yeah," you know?

Dr. Becky 15:48 [laughs]

Austin Kleon 15:48 And he would celebrate himself while he was working.

Dr. Becky 15:50 I just love this kid. I need to meet him. [laughs]

Austin Kleon 15:51 And it was just like, and I was like, "You can do that?" Right? Like, "Wow, I bet I could do that if no o- you know? Like, what if I did that in the studio, you know? What if I got a line down, "Yeah"" [laughs] You know? It was just like, it was like learnin'- It was literally like learning from a little master, you know? That's what I think a real creative person needs, is to-

Dr. Becky 16:12 Mm

Austin Kleon 16:12 ... love the process more than the product, 'cause the product, someone else can take and do something with it.

Dr. Becky 16:23 There's a very specific moment in the day a lot of parents hit, usually in the afternoon, where you're still going, but everything feels harder than it should. You're answering questions, making decisions, trying to stay patient, and suddenly simple things feel complicated. Like, why does choosing a snack suddenly feel like a high-stakes decision? And most of us, me included, have the tendency to just push through it, power through. But I've started to pay more attention to those in-between moments, and how something as basic as hydration can actually help. And that's what I like about element's sparkling electrolyte drinks. They're designed for those exact moments, not just workouts, but real life: school drop-off, the transition between soccer and coming home, that mid-afternoon dip around 4:07 PM. And it's a simple grab-and-go can. No mixing, no prep, something I can just reach for when I need a small reset for me. No sugar, no artificial ingredients, just a way to support yourself a little better in the middle of a long day. If you wanna try it, element is offering a free gift with any purchase. Just go to drinkelement.com/goodinside. That's drinkLMNT.com/goodinside. [gentle music] Sorry, I didn't mean this to be my therapy session. I, tell me how much I owe you-

Austin Kleon 17:51 Great

Dr. Becky 17:51 ... um, after. But people are like, "How do you respond to all the things you put online, people liking them or not liking them, and h- I, I, I" And literally I'm like, I, it's weird. I, I don't even have a great answer to that question. I, I, I just feel like I'm so often consumed by, like, the next thing I'm thinking about and trying to work out in my head, or the next conversation I'm having with a parent. I'm like, "That's a conundrum. Ooh, what's going on? Let's figure it out together. I don't know yet, but maybe I will tomorrow." Like, I just, I, I don't know. Like, that's just where I am. I'm not... It, that, that's where I am in the next moment

Austin Kleon 18:22 I'll have what she's having.

Dr. Becky 18:23 Okay, well-

Austin Kleon 18:23 That's what I'm hearing.

Dr. Becky 18:25 Well, only here

Austin Kleon 18:25 Basically because, like, that-

Dr. Becky 18:26 Only here. Let me be clear

Austin Kleon 18:27 ... [laughs] that is what every great artist I've ever studied talks about, is like I- once the thing's out, it's dead to, it's onto the next thing

Dr. Becky 18:36 It's dead. [laughs]

Austin Kleon 18:37 It's dead to me. Yeah. Well, you know, we talk about executing a project. Like-

Dr. Becky 18:42 Yeah

Austin Kleon 18:43 ... well, then it's dead. Once you execute it, it's dead-

Dr. Becky 18:45 Ooh

Austin Kleon 18:46 ... to you, right? Like, it's done. On to the next thing. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 18:50 English language is... Wow. Wow. Okay.

Austin Kleon 18:53 Words.

Dr. Becky 18:53 This has been... Okay, next thing I wanna ask you about, I could talk to you forever, is obsession, okay?

Austin Kleon 19:01 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 19:02 I hear different versions of this from parents all the time. In fact, someone-

Austin Kleon 19:06 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 19:06 ... I remember talking to this parent for a while. My four-year-old's obsessed with garage doors, okay? All he wants to do is drive around our city and watch them open and close, and then my kid's like, my friend's like, "Do they, does my kid have an issue? Is my kid this thing? Are they that thing? How long do I let this happen for? I'm trying to show my kid there's other things, but it's just back to the garage doors." What, what is that about from your perspective? I think you have a lot to say about it.

Austin Kleon 19:32 I think, uh, you know, the, John Baldessari, who is actually the person I stole the title for this book from, um, he used to say that you have to be obsessed. Talent is nothing. You have to be acce- obsessed, or you'll never make it as a creative person. Creative people are people who get obsessed, and kids are, are creative, and so they get obsessed by things. My son loved engines. I'm not a car guy.

Dr. Becky 19:57 [laughs]

Austin Kleon 19:57 My son loved everyone who came to our house, he would wanna look at the engine, and then he'd say, "Hey, Dad, take a picture of this so I can look at it later," and he'd want me to print it out, and then he would draw the engine. And I know more about combustion engines, something I never wanted to know about, because of my son, Owen. And you just, like, expand the thing they get obsessed by.

Dr. Becky 20:18 Yes.

Austin Kleon 20:18 Right?

Dr. Becky 20:18 So let's do that with garage doors, because-

Austin Kleon 20:20 Yeah, perfect

Dr. Becky 20:20 ... I think the im- the impulse can be, and maybe this goes back to your beginning when you were saying as parents, like, we can so easily lose touch with anything related to creativity because we're so in a up and to the right optimization world, right? And so, like, we all get why it happens, and then we see this thing in our kid, right? And I think t- I don't know. I see this visual with my, my friend who has a kid, this garage door obsession. So let's say he has a road of his life, and he's, like, stuck at garage doors. [laughs] Okay? He's like, garage doors, garage doors, garage doors.

Austin Kleon 20:49 Right.

Dr. Becky 20:49 And I think our impulse, and mine too, is we push back. We almost, like, build a wall, but we don't realize we're just keeping our kids stuck at the garage door 'cause, like, we're, like-

Austin Kleon 20:58 Yeah

Dr. Becky 20:58 ... pushing back.

Austin Kleon 20:59 Right.

Dr. Becky 21:00 And I think what you're saying is what if the garage door, they have to be there for a little, but it's, it is the eventual kind of door to the next-

Austin Kleon 21:08 The door is the door. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 21:09 The door is the door. Okay?

Austin Kleon 21:10 The garage door-

Dr. Becky 21:10 I'm not that creative at all

Austin Kleon 21:11 ... is the door. Well-

Dr. Becky 21:12 Sometimes my metaphors are very literal, right? And what in, what if we just follow it a little bit?

Austin Kleon 21:18 I guess this is kinda my education 'cause I went to a school that was a interdisciplinary school and college, and we would take something like a garage door and we would look at it from 100 different angles. We'd say, well, what's the sociological angle of the garage door? What's the environmental angle of a garage door? What's the design angle? So I would ask the kid, "Well, what do you think about what would it be like to have a house that didn't have a garage door?"

Dr. Becky 21:40 Mm.

Austin Kleon 21:41 Why, why do you think some houses have garage doors and some houses don't? Did you know that some garage doors don't face the driveway? Some of them face, you know. And then you start wonder- and then you can, uh, 'cause the answer-

Dr. Becky 21:52 Yeah

Austin Kleon 21:52 ... of course, is that we didn't always have cars that we pulled into our houses.

Dr. Becky 21:56 Mm.

Austin Kleon 21:57 Right? So, like, you know, you're kind of like, uh, my, the thing that helped me the most as a parent, uh, is I used to be a librarian. Um, so my first job out of college was a reference desk librarian, and the librarian you learn, the library, the librarian doesn't need to know the answers. They just need to know what questions to ask and where to find the answers. So I was always gonna, you know, I threatened for years if I was gonna write a parenting book, I'd say parent like a librarian, [laughs] you know, 'cause I wrote a book called Steal Like an Artist, so the similarities are... And but to me, it was like the more I thought of myself as a librarian, the kid comes to me, he's got all these weird interests, got all these obsessions, got all these questions. I don't need to have the answers. I just need to say, "You know, I bet I know where we could look for that, and we could look for that together. And oh, you're into garage doors? Hey, you know what I found? Uh, I found our old opener." You know? Or, you know-

Dr. Becky 22:56 Yeah

Austin Kleon 22:56 ... or like, "Look-

Dr. Becky 22:57 Yeah

Austin Kleon 22:57 ... I found this manual. You know what Grandpa, you know what Grandpa did? I told him you were into garage doors. He mailed us his manual for his garage door on his barn. Let's take a look at it." You know? And, and it's just about being, like, so yeah, my training as a librarian, I think, you know, really inspired me more than anything [laughs] with the kids, is to just think about everything they bring you, uh, is an opportunity for inquiry and curiosity and for a way to, for them to learn about the world literally through their obsession because, yes, you can start with garage doors. You can learn, I would guess that you could build a whole urban planning, uh, class around garage doors.

Dr. Becky 23:42 Okay, we're talking about play, but I, I wanna talk about it related to something you've said, right? And you quote this line in the book, "The opposite of play isn't work. The opposite of play is depression." And I, I wanna, like, honestly, like, probably even change my own tone, take a deep breath into that because I, I really, I feel privileged to be let into parents' lives who, who do tell me, like, every day they're exhausted. They feel like the joy has gone.

Austin Kleon 24:12 Mm.

Dr. Becky 24:12 And there's low-grade or diagnosable or depression, whatever it is.

Austin Kleon 24:16 Sure.

Dr. Becky 24:16 It, it feels really dark. And so talk to, talk to me about how depression is related to play.

Austin Kleon 24:23 Well, I'm not the expert. The, the expert is Stuart Brown has wrote a great book on play, and that's who said that line. I think depre- you know, uh, for to me, play is to be activated, and depression is to be non-activated, right? Depression is to be the opposite of whatever activated is, and I think that play is something that lets you know you're alive. Like, only things that are alive play. And everything that's, uh ... Well, plants maybe not. I haven't researched the play of plants. See, this is a great question. For a kid, do you think plants play? [laughs] You know?

Dr. Becky 24:59 Well, we know that, we know that trees h- kind of talk now, right?

Austin Kleon 25:03 Right.

Dr. Becky 25:03 That there's c- so-

Austin Kleon 25:04 Yes, so-

Dr. Becky 25:04 ... that's really interesting. So-

Austin Kleon 25:05 ... is that a form of play, right?

Dr. Becky 25:06 Do, do they make jokes?

Austin Kleon 25:08 Yeah. And, you know, these questions, by the way, are exactly the, like, y- this is, like, how children's books start or how-

Dr. Becky 25:15 Oh

Austin Kleon 25:16 ... any artist gets an idea. Like, do trees talk? You know, these kinds of questions that kids ask.

Dr. Becky 25:21 Yeah.

Austin Kleon 25:22 These naive questions. You know, there's a great, um, there's a great book called Philosophy and the Young Child, where the guy kind of talks about, you know, Socrates was really just being a young kid and asking really basic questions that everyone else thought they had answered. You know, that's what kids are so good at, is, and the questions that they ask make you question your own knowledge. You know, and that's why I think they're so good at, like, cracking things open.

Dr. Becky 25:50 Yeah. Kids are, kids are remarkably good at not knowing, right? [laughs]

Austin Kleon 25:54 Oh, yes. And not knowing is at the very heart of what I think every creative person needs. There, Donald Barthelme wrote a great essay about it, and he said the writer is someone who does not know what to do. Um, [laughs] and you sit with that. Say, "I do not know what I'm doing," and you sit with uncertainty. The cool thing about uncertainty is, like, we're in an uncertain world, and it's, everyone's full of uncertainty right now. The really handy thing about being a creative person is that uncertainty is the very thing that you run on. Like, not knowing, 'cause when you don't know what you're doing, that means there are possibilities. To be sure of something means that the possibilities are pretty shut down. But, like, to not be sure is to be open and to have possibilities. So the not knowing is the thing that it all runs on. And again, that's what kids, like, the beginner's mind is what the, you know, the Zen folks would say. Kids have that beginner's mind because th- in the expert's mind, the possibilities are few. In the beginner's mind, the possibilities are endless.

Dr. Becky 27:01 Do you ever have moments where it's hard to be playful with your kids? Is that-

Austin Kleon 27:04 Oh.

Dr. Becky 27:04 Is that ever kind of ... Yep.

Austin Kleon 27:05 Every day.

Dr. Becky 27:06 Oh.

Austin Kleon 27:06 Are you kidding? I'm not a very g- I mean, I wouldn't even call myself... I mean, the only way that I know I'm probably not a bad dad is that I worry about being a dad, bad dad, and I think that any parent who worries about being a good parent is probably not a bad parent. You know? I mean, I'm sure you've discovered that in your work. But, you know, I mean, like, yeah, and it's called bedtime. It's time to go to bed. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 27:29 Okay.

Austin Kleon 27:29 Get to bed.

Dr. Becky 27:29 So tell me one thing there, 'cause I'm gonna share with you something I did last night. It's kind of crazy that this is coming full circle. Like, there's so many full circle moments with you. What is something you've done at bedtime to force yourself to be a little more playful? Maybe you-

Austin Kleon 27:41 Yeah

Dr. Becky 27:41 ... commit to the container before you know-

Austin Kleon 27:43 Ooh

Dr. Becky 27:43 ... how to fill it-

Austin Kleon 27:43 Ooh, yeah

Dr. Becky 27:44 ... um, that you can share with other parents? Then I'll s- I'll share a simple thing I did the other night.

Austin Kleon 27:47 Oh, wow. Playful at bedtime. Um-

Dr. Becky 27:50 Or maybe that's a stretch. Uh, playful an hour before bed. And just like a moment that you were like, "I, I kind of wanna lean in and be a little more present, playful, creative, fun," and do, do you have any, do you have any cheat sheets of s- [laughs] of sorts? We all need those.

Austin Kleon 28:04 I can't get this out of my head, so I'm just gonna tell you. You know the game I played when I was bottomed out the most? I read about it during the pandemic. What's on my butt? Do you know what's on my butt? [laughs]

Dr. Becky 28:15 What is it? I-

Austin Kleon 28:16 What's on my butt? I don't know who discovered this glorious game. What's on my butt? You wanna hear about a game, right? [laughs]

Dr. Becky 28:25 I do.

Austin Kleon 28:25 Do you wanna hear about the game? Um-

Dr. Becky 28:26 I do

Austin Kleon 28:26 ... so it, you lay down f- fa- fa- flat on the couch or on the bed. [laughs] Okay, yeah.

Dr. Becky 28:35 [laughs]

Austin Kleon 28:35 You lay down, you close your eyes, and the kids put something on your butt, [laughs] and you get to guess-

Dr. Becky 28:43 What's on my butt

Austin Kleon 28:44 ... what it is.

Dr. Becky 28:45 I-

Austin Kleon 28:45 What's on my butt? It's the game that's taking over the nation. [laughs] And that was just... Oh, what's on my butt makes me think of the pandemics, and my kids were little during the pandemic. Like, they were little kids, and what's on my butt got me through a lot of bottomed-out times. But it was a game, you know? And so was your brusha brusha, right? Games, playfulness. Like, it doesn't even have to be... You don't have to be playful to play a game, you know? Like, the game, part of the game is to trick you into being playful, you know?

Dr. Becky 29:20 100%. It's funny, I play a game, and I'm, gonna talk about something else, but I end up kind of setting something up that's playful, and I say, "And if you do this thing, I'll do a butt dance." So there's-

Austin Kleon 29:29 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 29:29 ... which is, like, I jump up and down and touch my butt. So, like, there's something similar in our, we end up at the same place as you and I.

Austin Kleon 29:35 Buts.

Dr. Becky 29:35 But this is what I... But.

Austin Kleon 29:36 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 29:36 But.

Austin Kleon 29:37 But.

Dr. Becky 29:37 And, and, so last night I was putting my eight-year-old to bed. He's my youngest.

Austin Kleon 29:41 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 29:41 And I have to be honest, I- I'm obsessed with children's books, okay? But I don't read as many as I used to. I mean, 14, 11, 8, my kids ha- you know, like, uh, or anyway, but you know what book I took out that was a fan favorite, I mean, forever, but it'd just been a while?

Austin Kleon 29:57 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 29:57 Was The Book with No Pictures. Shout out to BJ Novak.

Austin Kleon 29:59 Oh, BJ Novak, yeah.

Dr. Becky 30:00 Okay? I mean, this, I just want for anyone listening, uh, okay, I have no affiliate structure here, okay?

Austin Kleon 30:07 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 30:07 This is just pure cheat sheet. It is such a beautiful container to enter into playfulness and silliness because the book, I'll give it away, forces you through the reading of it to say ridiculous things and ridiculous sounds, right? Blaggity blaggity glibbity glabbity glabbity glibbity beep boop. Like, I, I can still, I can think about the whole book, and what happened between me and my son- And it was. It was a long day, right? And it was ... And it just, it was playfulness at bedtime, which feels like a parenting paradox, right? Like, how can we do that? [laughs] And we always do rose, um, rose, thorn, and bud, uh, uh, with my kid at bedtime, right?

Austin Kleon 30:53 Okay.

Dr. Becky 30:53 The, the best part of your day, your hardest, the thing you're looking forward to.

Austin Kleon 30:55 Yep.

Dr. Becky 30:56 And, and he, you know, rose we do first, and he goes, "Definitely right now, reading that book with you." And honestly, I left his room after, you know, doing the rest of the routine, and I just, [laughs] I really thought, like, that, that was, that was my rose, too.

Austin Kleon 31:11 I keep a diary, and one of the things I would really recommend to people with young parents is if, or young kids, is if you can stand it, like, just keep a one-line-a-day diary, because, um ... And one of the things that, you know, people usually when they pick up their diaries, they write about, like, bad things or, like, the worst things.

Dr. Becky 31:28 Yeah.

Austin Kleon 31:29 I always try at least once in my diary to write the best thing. Um, this is something I learned from the writer, uh, Nicholson Baker, who wrote about it in his book The Anthologist. When you think about the best thing that happens in a day, it, there's something more poetic about it. It brings out the best in you, and you are able to kind of, like ... I, I just think it's, like, this really helpful ener- exercise that when you are bottom out, like a parent, like, like, uh, in the way that parents can get that thing, if you can just focus on that one good thing, the best thing that happened, even if it was, like, getting the kids to bed and watching, you know, The Pit, whatever, like that, those me- moments are so worth noting, because, not to quote for Kurt Vonnegut again, but like his uncle always said, "Always notice when you're happy. Like, if this isn't nice, I don't know what is."

Dr. Becky 32:25 That was such a fun conversation. Like, I'm beaming now. It just ended, and it just shows me playing around with ideas, playing around with silliness, play. It's so hard sometimes in this world, and some days I don't have it either, a lot of days, and I don't feel any guilt for that, and I hope you don't either. But maybe this sparks something for you, which shows that we didn't put it in you. We maybe just helped you ignite something that was kind of dormant inside you, because we all have that creativity and that play. I wanna tell you something I'm gonna do for you, 'cause I know what you're thinking. That what's on your butt game, that brusha brusha brush brush, that book, I need this written out. That is some serious playful stuff, and I don't wanna forget it, and I wanna send it to my partner, and I wanna talk about it with my group of friends, because it's gonna feel so weird doing brusha brusha brush brush, but if my friends do it, too, on the same day, we can play around with it together. So go to the link in the show notes. I'm gonna lay it all out for you. I think we all need a little bit more play, and if someone can help us create the conditions for it, we all benefit. All right. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good and playful and creative and imaginative inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]