Contracts of Love & Money That Make or Break Relationships | James Sexton

1. 0:00 – 2:19

   James Sexton

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is James Sexton. James Sexton is a renowned attorney with over 25 years of experience in family law, specializing in prenuptial agreements and divorces. He is known as what many call the voice of reason between love and legal. Today, we discuss something that might seem counterintuitive, which is how the legal frameworks and contracts surrounding relationships, particularly prenuptial agreements, can actually deepen emotional connection and build trust between partners. As James points out, intimacy and trust are fundamentally about the ability to be your true self with your partner and them with you. It's about allowing ourselves to be vulnerable. It's also about having a same team spirit, of course, respect for one another, and admiration for each other's unique qualities. Today, we explore how prenuptial agreements, which most often are viewed as being unromantic or pessimistic, can actually serve as ways to establish a sense of safety for both people and prevent many common conflicts and misunderstandings. As James puts it, everyone has a prenup. You either have one that was created by the state legislature or you can tailor one to you and your partner's unique needs. He also points out something that many people will find surprising, which is that the vast majority of people who do prenups stay married, and yet most people opt not to do them. We also discuss love itself and the key questions that we all need to ask to find the right partner, and if you have one, to build the strongest possible bonds with them. The information in today's episode is going to be extremely important for anyone looking for or currently in a relationship. Whether you're single, dating, engaged, or married, understanding how the legal and emotional frameworks that support lasting relationships intersect can help you navigate one of life's most rewarding but challenging journeys with much greater awareness and intention and probability of success. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with James Sexton. Jim Sexton, welcome.

   2. JSJames Sexton2:17

      Thank you. It's good to be here.

2. 2:19 – 12:04

   Divorce & Breakups, Men vs Women, Perception; Infidelity

   1. JSJames Sexton2:19

   2. AHAndrew Huberman2:19

      I've been wanting to do this for a while.

   3. JSJames Sexton2:20

      I know. It's a long time in the making, yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman2:22

      I think if two guys sit down, one of them a lawyer, who's known as a divorce lawyer, and they're talking about divorce and love and money and contracts and the ending of things, I think there's a understandable default mindset where the female half of our audience are probably gonna think like, here are a couple guys talking about relationships and divorce through the lens of their Y chromosomes-

   5. JSJames Sexton2:46

      Uh-huh.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman2:46

      ... which, of course, it's impossible to avoid completely because-

   7. JSJames Sexton2:50

      Sure.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman2:50

      ... I haven't done the karyotyping but-

   9. JSJames Sexton2:52

      Yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman2:52

       ... you have a Y chromosome, and I do as well. I would like to know, in your experience working with male clients and female clients-

   11. JSJames Sexton3:01

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman3:01

       ... is there something unique to the female experience of divorce or the female experience of realizing, wow, this contract that I thought was for life may not or is not for life, that sort of drives a kind of, uh, female-specific, um, set of, uh-

   13. JSJames Sexton3:21

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman3:21

       ... psychological responses? Here I'm, I'm basically asking for a generalization.

   15. JSJames Sexton3:25

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman3:26

       And I want to be clear. I'm not asking this for politically correct reasons.

   17. JSJames Sexton3:29

       No.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman3:29

       I'm asking this because, like I said, two guys sitting down to talk about-

   19. JSJames Sexton3:32

       Yeah. Yeah.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman3:32

       ... relationships, love, and divorce-

   21. JSJames Sexton3:34

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman3:34

       ... it's kind of where the mind goes.

   23. JSJames Sexton3:36

       Yeah. And, and I mean, before I would get, you know, before I would get canceled in the comments for being misandrist or misogynist, I, I always try to say that, you know, the things I'm observing are a function of having divorced thousands of people, you know, men and women. Like, for 25 years, I've done nothing but divorce law on a full time basis, and I mean on a truly full time basis. So I, I, I wake up in the morning thinking about this stuff, I go to bed thinking about this stuff, I work six, seven days a week. That's why I'm divorced. I, I, I really, really love the work. And so all the things I'm saying are, are really just my observations. So you know, in response to that question, I think, I think the world relates to divorced men and divorced women differently, and I think people's self-conception, right, is very different. So I, I often tell my male clients when we're dealing with, you know, a custody case, for example, which is, you know, arguments over when a child's gonna live with whom and when they're gonna spend time with whom. And there was this concept called the maternal presumption, which was around legally for years, or something called the tender years doctrine. It's called different things in different states. But it was around until probably the 1980s, and that was that a child was assumed to stay in the custody of the mother unless you could prove she was an unfit mother. So men were automatically second class when it came to being a parent. So it was automatic. It was the default. Now, of course, in the '80s, there was a different makeup of the workforce, there was a different gender roles, obviously, in terms of assignment of, of childcare responsibilities. It was a different world to some degree. But that was eradicated in the 1980s. And the bench, even, the judges have changed dramatically. When I started practicing 25 years ago, 90% of the judges I appeared in front of were old white men, period. Like, that was it. It was old white men. And so I got in the habit of, like, have a short haircut, hide the tattoos, like, look like you're coming out of the set of Inherit the Wind. Like, look like you are what, you know, 'cause you got a conservative old man as your judge. That is not the makeup of the bench anymore. The bench now is as diverse as the people that it serves. So one of the things, though, that I, I tell my male clients is even though that maternal presumption is gone, women fight harder for custody than men do.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman5:54

       Really?

   25. JSJames Sexton5:55

       I'd love to say to you that it's because the maternal instinct and bond is so strong that women just care about their kids and they want custody. I, I don't really believe it's that. I, I think it's the following.If you and I just met normal life, right? Like, we're just out at a bar, and I sit up ... n- and you say, "So j- so Jim, tell me about yourself." And I say, "Well, I'm divorced. Um, my kids live with their mom. I see them every other weekend and once a week for dinner." You would go, "Okay, cool. Jim's a divorced guy. You know, he's working, he's does his thing." I'm a woman, and I say, "I have two kids. They live with their father. I see them every other weekend." You go, "What is wrong with this woman? Is she on substance use issues? Mental health issues?" Like, "Why does he have custody of the kids? Why doesn't she have custody of her kids?" So there is a, there is an element of how motherhood is perceived as an identity, even for a working woman, that it's like if you don't have your kids on a full-time or close to full-time basis, there's this percep- so that infuses, that changes the way that women are in custody litigation. That's a huge piece of it. On the other side of things, you know, the, the gender stuff in divorce and in breakups is really interesting and complicated in the sense that, for example, if a man cheats on his wife, he's a piece of shit, can't keep it in his pants, he's a child. "Why couldn't he be honest?" A woman cheats on her husband, "She was driven into the arms of another man. She couldn't get... he wasn't meeting her needs. This was her journey of self-discovery." Like, you can see it in popular media, like watch any film, any TV show. When the man cheats, it's like he's a lecherous guy who just get... The woman cheats, it's like, "Oh, this poor woman. Like, she, she needed to find herself. She needed, like, her Eat, Pray, Love moment." And so that's again, like, the, the wor- the way the world interacts with people in breakups and in the clay that builds to the breakup is very different. So how people react to it is very different. Men, in my experience as clients, there's a lot of anger that, that, you know, manifests in very honest ways, like very blunt ways, like very "Grr" kind of, you know? 'Cause men are, you know, men are... Uh, Bill Burr recently, in one of his, his recent special has this thing about men are allowed to be two things, angry or fine. That's it. Like, angry or fine. And that's... And I used to always say that growing up, you know, I'm 52, like, growing up I had two choices. You're either Clint Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were your two choices as a man. You were either, like, stoic, you know, stony, no emotion, or gay. That was it. Those were, like, your two choices. And of course, it's totally dishonest. Of course, the reality is, is men have a different, you know... We have an emotional vocabulary. It just expresses in different ways. But anger is something men are allowed to have. So when men are sad, they seem angry. When men are angry, they seem angry. Women, my experience of women in divorces is they're, they're much more forgiving in unhappy marriages. They're much more willing to stay in relatively unhappy marriages and, and sort of torture their partner. And then when they've decided, "Okay, I'm out," there is a, a level of like, "Yeah, whatever we gotta do, we gotta do," like, that sometimes to me, as someone who does this for a living is like, "Oh, oh, okay." Like, "You're, you're just willing to, you're just willing to go there," you know?

   26. AHAndrew Huberman9:30

       Like mercenary.

   27. JSJames Sexton9:31

       Yeah. Just there's... you know, like when... And you look at the history of the marriage and you go, "Wow, when they were together, like, there's nothing she wouldn't do for him." And now it's ending and man, there's nothing she won't do to him. Like, she is just weaponized on him. And it's, it's, um, it's kind of... It used to be surprising to me. It's not really surprising to me anymore. I, I think... I have a friend who was a criminal lawyer for many years, criminal defense attorney, really good one in the city. And we used to laugh 'cause he used to say as a criminal lawyer, he sees bad people at their best. And as a divorce lawyer, I see good people at their worst. And I... It's always astounding to me because I've reached a level in my career, thankfully, where I represent elite athletes. I represent, you know, people in the financial markets who, who literally move markets with their trades, people in entertainment industry. And they are as bad at this as any of us. Like, they're as bad at relationships, they're as bad at heartbreak as anybody. So, you know, there are differences in the gender piece. There are differences in the socioeconomic piece, but at the end of the day, it's like, it's hurt people hurting people, and it kinda looks roughly the same.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman10:48

       It's very interesting and there's a lot in there. I want to return to this, um, sort of divergent response to men cheating versus women cheating-

   29. JSJames Sexton10:55

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman10:55

       ... a little bit later. Super interesting, uh, area for exploration.
3. 12:04 – 14:41

   Sponsors: Wealthfront & BetterHelp

   1. JSJames Sexton12:04

   2. AHAndrew Huberman12:04

      I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Wealthfront.I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and for my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it. At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money. Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well. With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it. With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays. The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn. And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks. Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts. It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest. There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. Earn 4% APY on your cash today. If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account. That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now. This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront. Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode description. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about any issues you want. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance. And third, expert therapy provides useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationships, but of course also the relationship to yourself and to your professional life and to all sorts of life and career goals. With BetterHelp, they make it extremely easy to find an expert therapist who you can really resonate with and that can help provide these benefits that come through effective therapy. And because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. There's no commuting to a therapist's office, finding parking, or sitting in a waiting room. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

4. 14:41 – 26:24

   Contracts, Business, Marriage Celebration, Prenups

   1. AHAndrew Huberman14:41

      We're talking about breaking one contract, the contract of marriage-

   2. JSJames Sexton14:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman14:47

      ... and creating a new contract-

   4. JSJames Sexton14:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman14:49

      ... the contract of divorce. I'm fascinated by contracts.

   6. JSJames Sexton14:53

      (laughs) .

   7. AHAndrew Huberman14:53

      In the world of business, um, my business partner and I that started this podcast, um, I insisted that, uh, we take an even split. That was important to me. It's absolutely critical, um, because this podcast wouldn't be what it is without him-

   8. JSJames Sexton15:07

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman15:08

      ... um, and his incredible expertise. He is the, uh, the genius behind it all. Our, our initial contract was on a piece of paper-

   10. JSJames Sexton15:18

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman15:18

       ... in a little coffee shop in Manhattan-

   12. JSJames Sexton15:19

       (laughs) .

   13. AHAndrew Huberman15:20

       ... where I said, "How about this? How about this?" And we, we discussed it. People like you give lawyers, like, we get hives.

   14. JSJames Sexton15:25

       Okay.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman15:25

       Like you say that and I-

   16. JSJames Sexton15:26

       Okay.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman15:26

       ... I instantly start like, you know.

   18. JSJames Sexton15:28

       Right.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman15:28

       Six months later, uh, or so, a lawyer told us we had to get a real contract.

   20. JSJames Sexton15:33

       Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman15:34

       And we did it. Um, and I have to say it was fine and I'm glad we have contracts. But to me all contracts, whether or not it's a scribble on a piece of paper or it's a formal contract, um, contracts make me feel safe. They make me feel good. I like rules and guidelines.

   22. JSJames Sexton15:50

       Sure.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman15:50

       Um, I like knowing what's gonna happen if. For a scientist-

   24. JSJames Sexton15:53

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman15:53

       ... um, this doesn't really exist. You, you like to think you can control outcomes, but you can't.

   26. JSJames Sexton15:58

       Yeah.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman15:58

       And you acknowledge that and you, you go into the unknown.

   28. JSJames Sexton16:01

       Yeah.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman16:01

       So contracts are very reassuring to me.

   30. JSJames Sexton16:03

       Yeah. Yeah.
5. 26:24 – 33:56

   Nesting; Prenups, Creating Rulesets

   1. AHAndrew Huberman26:24

      a discussion about a prenup, which is-

   2. JSJames Sexton26:26

      I think that's true, yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman26:26

      ... which I really appreciate, and I know the audience appreciates, too-

   4. JSJames Sexton26:29

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman26:29

      ... because you're putting a different lens on things. I'm gonna just put on my hat as a neuroscientist and biologist for a moment. I think there are certain words that people, for whatever reason, consider kind of a buzzkill.

   6. JSJames Sexton26:43

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman26:44

      Like, we're talking about pheromones and love-

   8. JSJames Sexton26:46

      (laughs) Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman26:46

      ... and children and romance and-

   10. JSJames Sexton26:48

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman26:48

       ... sex and vacations and honeymoons-

   12. JSJames Sexton26:50

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman26:50

       ... and parties, and then someone says, "Contract."

   14. JSJames Sexton26:53

       Yeah.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman26:54

       And someone d- and somebody says, um, you know, "We, finances," which-

   16. JSJames Sexton26:58

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman26:58

       ... you know, maybe that turns certain people on. I guess people in the finance world, that probably turns them on. But d- do you get where I'm coming from?

   18. JSJames Sexton27:04

       I do, yeah, I- I-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman27:05

       I have to assume it's a different brain circuit.

   20. JSJames Sexton27:07

       I think it-

   21. AHAndrew Huberman27:08

       For most people-

   22. JSJames Sexton27:08

       I think it probably is.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman27:09

       ... whereas what you're doing is you're coming at this from a different perspective-

   24. JSJames Sexton27:11

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman27:11

       ... which is part of the reason why you're here-

   26. JSJames Sexton27:13

       Yeah.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman27:13

       ... is that you're saying this discussion around a prenup contract can potentially shed more light into the nature of the bond and maybe-

   28. JSJames Sexton27:25

       Of course.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman27:25

       ... even deepen the connection.

   30. JSJames Sexton27:26

       Of course. And, and I, I will tell you, I've been doing prenuptial agreements for 25 years for clients, and I usually end up having a very good relationship with the person I do a prenup with, because you're talking a lot about their fears, their hopes.
6. 33:56 – 38:19

   Prenups & Strengthening Marriage

   1. JSJames Sexton33:56

      you, I, I, I, and I got sidetracked, as I tend to do, but I've done probably hundreds if not thousands of prenups over 25 years. I think there may be five people that I did their divorce after they had a prenup.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman34:10

      Really?

   3. JSJames Sexton34:10

      Yeah. I think-

   4. AHAndrew Huberman34:11

      I think people need to hear that again.

   5. JSJames Sexton34:12

      I think that, yeah. So, so I've done hundreds, if not at least 1,000 prenups in 25 years. I probably do two or three prenups a week. So I do a lot of prenups. Most of my colleagues do a lot of prenups. And I've never asked my colleagues this, but, you know, usually when you do a prenup, you have a good relationship with the person by the time it's finished. It's a transaction people feel good about. It's, uh, divorce, sometimes you finish a divorce and the person was like, "Oh my God, I never wanna see you again 'cause you remind me of this really dark chapter." But prenups, it's usually a very friendly transaction. It's positive. Those-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman34:45

      This is surprising to me. So people who prenup tend not to break up? Yes, that rhymes.

   7. JSJames Sexton34:49

      Yes. Yes.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman34:50

      Um, I think m- many people will be very surprised to hear that.

   9. JSJames Sexton34:53

      I think it's self-selecting. I think the kind of people who can have a conversation that you need to have in order to discuss and negotiate, and again, there's another term. I don't think it's the right term, negotiate a prenup. Negotiate gives the impression it's like you're buying a car, you know? Like, the kind of people who can have the conversations you need to have in order to have a prenuptial agreement I think are the kind of people that are gonna be successfully married, period. Like, there's something about, there, that, that, "I'm not gonna talk about a prenup because I don't wanna talk about the possibility that anything could ever go wrong with this thing. It's perfect. It's wonderful. It's cake. It's roses. It's nothing but romance and sex, and it's wonderful." Okay, you got nowh- Listen, falling feels like flying for a little while.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman35:33

       (laughs)

   11. JSJames Sexton35:35

       You know? And then you hit the ground, and it is waiting for you. And if the first time you ever think about what legal rights and obligations do I have is when you're in my office, like, you've, you're already screwed. You're already screwed. You did nothing to prepare emotionally, financially. Y- you know, nothing. So there's something about the imagination, right, that people, if you, if you're just the kind of person who's like, "I don't even wanna talk..." I actually met, I had a, uh, they'll remain nameless, but it was a neighbor, and I tried to... Every once in a while, I get it in my head that I'm gonna, like, try to be a more social person. So I'm like, "Oh, I should, like, invite the neighbor over for a drink, you know, the couple." And, uh, I, they don't live near me anymore, so I can get away with it now. But I invited these people over for a drink, and they came over, lovely people. But at some point, she said, "Oh, you know, I don't know how you do what you do. Like, we don't, we don't allow the D word in our house." And I was like, "You, what do you mean?" She's like, "No, no, we just, you're not allowed to say the word divorce in our house." And she said it like divorce like she was saying voldumort. You know, she was like, "We don't say the D word." And I was like... And I thought to myself, "If only it was that easy," you know? By the way, got divorced, like, three years later.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman36:51

       Really? How-

   13. JSJames Sexton36:51

       Oh yeah, oh yeah, 100%.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman36:53

       You saved the, you saved me a-

   15. JSJames Sexton36:53

       Like, knock down-

   16. AHAndrew Huberman36:53

       ... asking.

   17. JSJames Sexton36:53

       ... drag out, brutal, both of them tried to call me and hire me, you know, and I, I will not represent people that I know in any capacity. And I just remember thinking, like, that d- like, that is such a, what a delusion, like, that I'm never gonna say the word. Like, what are you, my great-grandmother? Like, you have to say cancer.This 'cause if you say cancer, it like of speaking volume suddenly like tumors will develop. Like, do y- are you that superstitious? Like, do you belie- you know, do you believe in Chewbacca too? Like, that's crazy.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman37:25

       I mean, superstition is a form of paranoia.

   19. JSJames Sexton37:27

       Yeah. Of course.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman37:27

       It's a mild form of paranoia.

   21. JSJames Sexton37:28

       Of course.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman37:29

       But it's a form of paranoia.

   23. JSJames Sexton37:30

       Of course, yeah. But I think it's... You know, I say all the time that I think most of our attitudes about marriage have been just handed down. Like, it's just... It's this is something that, like, marriage, you could be the most, like, modern Bella Abzug feminist person, and a lot of women are like, "Oh yeah, I still want my dad to walk me down the aisle and give me awa-" Give you away? Like, seriously? Like, you're, you're a C-suite executive at a software company, and he's going to trade you for what goats? Like, this is gonna be where he's... Becau- because you are your father's property, and now you will be the property, and he will give you away to your husband, and you'll now be his property. That's where that tradition comes from, gang.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman38:11

       What do you think, uh, the psychological underpinnings of, of what you're describing are about? Is it some sort of internal validation

7. 38:19 – 44:44

   Marriage Traditions; Divorce Rates, Religion

   1. AHAndrew Huberman38:19

      of worth, external validation of worth? I mean, none of it computes for me-

   2. JSJames Sexton38:23

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman38:23

      ... when I look at, you know, like you said, like a... Let's say these are extreme examples, but-

   4. JSJames Sexton38:26

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman38:26

      ... C-suite female executive.

   6. JSJames Sexton38:28

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman38:28

      Let's make... Or a founder also.

   8. JSJames Sexton38:30

      Sure.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman38:30

      These exist.

   10. JSJames Sexton38:31

       Sure.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman38:31

       I'm from the Bay Area, there are plenty of them.

   12. JSJames Sexton38:32

       Represent a few of them, yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman38:33

       Yeah, and typically they will take their soon-to-be husband's last name.

   14. JSJames Sexton38:40

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman38:40

       Interesting. Not always.

   16. JSJames Sexton38:41

       100%.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman38:42

       That's far more common than men taking-

   18. JSJames Sexton38:44

       Oh yeah.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman38:45

       ... their, their wife's last name.

   20. JSJames Sexton38:46

       Oh yeah, far more.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman38:46

       Actually, I can't even think of a single instance.

   22. JSJames Sexton38:48

       Some... I've had a few that hyphenate. That's a new thing.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman38:51

       Oh, evolutionary biologists do that.

   24. JSJames Sexton38:52

       They hyphenate.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman38:52

       Used to be all the evolutionary biologists did that.

   26. JSJames Sexton38:54

       Most give the kids the husband's name. Most give the kids the husband's name. And I... Again, I don't know if that's a male thing that, like, men are like, "That's my kid. They're gonna have my name." I, I really don't know. But yeah, there's... A lot of the feminism gets thrown out the window.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman39:07

       Another one is that in divorces, I've observed this, I don't have statistics on this, but women will keep their ex-husband's last name-

   28. JSJames Sexton39:15

       Yeah.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman39:16

       ... because what I was told is they want to have the same last name as their kids.

   30. JSJames Sexton39:20

       That's pretty common.
8. 44:44 – 50:09

   First vs Second Marriages, Love & Impermanence

   1. JSJames Sexton44:44

      the time-

   2. AHAndrew Huberman44:44

      Really?

   3. JSJames Sexton44:44

      ... second marriage is higher than first marriage.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman44:46

      Huh.

   5. JSJames Sexton44:46

      Third marriage is much higher.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman44:48

      Interesting.

   7. JSJames Sexton44:49

      Yeah. And then once you get past three-

   8. AHAndrew Huberman44:50

      Hm.

   9. JSJames Sexton44:50

      ... it's like you're, you know...

   10. AHAndrew Huberman44:51

       All the divorced people in my family remarried and have been in those second marriages-

   11. JSJames Sexton44:57

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman44:57

       ... very long periods of time.

   13. JSJames Sexton44:58

       I know a lot of very happy second married people.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman45:00

       And still together, very happy. Um-

   15. JSJames Sexton45:01

       Yes.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman45:01

       Yeah.

   17. JSJames Sexton45:01

       Because- and I think there's value to that, 'cause I do think, as a divorced person, um, you learn a lot about yourself through the process of divorce. You learn a lot about what you don't wanna do again in a relationship and what didn't work for you.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman45:15

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JSJames Sexton45:15

       So I- I don't do anything perfectly the first time I do it. So I think that there's value in, in sort of giving something a try. Like, you don't learn how to swim by reading books about swimming. You learn how to swim in the pool. So that's why I'm a f- like, I'm a fan of marriage, even though the, the divorce rate is very high. It's clearly a very risky technology. One could argue it's a reckless thing to do, you know? That, that... I mean, th- the legal definition of negligence is a failure to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm, okay? Recklessness, legally, is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm, okay? So if you know something ends in heartbreak and division of assets and fighting that requires attorneys 56% of the time, and you don't make any plan for that in advance, I would argue that's reckless. You're consciously disregarding a substantial risk of harm, period.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman46:19

       Yeah, and if there's kids, it, it brings them into-

   21. JSJames Sexton46:21

       It's a different kind of-

   22. AHAndrew Huberman46:21

       ... the bomb blast too.

   23. JSJames Sexton46:22

       Yeah, an even higher level, yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman46:24

       Do you happen to know the numbers or the rough numbers on percentage of first marriages with kids that last, whether or not they're happy or not?

   25. JSJames Sexton46:33

       I don't. I don't know that delineation. I mean, I know that these statistics are fairly closely tracked.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman46:38

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JSJames Sexton46:38

       So you can find them out-

   28. AHAndrew Huberman46:40

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JSJames Sexton46:40

       ... online pretty easily because they're tracked by the government. Every time we do a divorce, we have to file what's called a Certificate of Dissolution of Marriage.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman46:48

       Mm-hmm.
9. 50:09 – 53:53

   Sponsors: AG1 & Our Place

   1. AHAndrew Huberman50:09

      As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily for more than 13 years. However, I've now found an even better vitamin mineral probiotic drink. That new and better drink is the new and improved AG1, which just launched this month. This next gen formula from AG1 is a more advanced, clinically backed version of the product that I've been taking daily for years. It includes new bioavailable nutrients and enhanced probiotics. The next gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several specific clinically studied probiotic strains that have been shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating. As someone who's been involved in research science for more than three decades, and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance. I discovered and started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. I find that it greatly improves all aspects of my health. I just feel so much better when I take it with each passing year. And by the way, I'm turning 50 this September. I continue to feel better and better, and I attribute a lot of that to AG1. AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost. So I'm honored to have them as a sponsor of this podcast. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2. Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place. Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware. Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFASs, or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products. As I've discussed before in this podcast, these PFASs, or forever chemicals, like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. So it's really important to try and avoid them. This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place. Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin free. I especially love their Titanium Always Pan Pro. It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating. Instead, it uses pure titanium. This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time. It's also beautiful to look at. I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning. The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan. I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat. But again, nothing sticks to it so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe. I love it, and I basically use it constantly. Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro cookware that uses its first of its kind titanium non-stick technology. So if you're looking for non-toxic, long lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout. Right now, Our Place is having their biggest sale of the season. You can get up to 30% off all products now through May 12th, 2025. With 100 day risk free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk and see why more than one million people have made the switch to Our Place kitchenware. Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get up to 30% off. I'm beginning to adopt a mindset around contracts that they are a tool

10. 53:53 – 1:02:37

    Contracts, Relationships & Hard Conversations

    1. AHAndrew Huberman53:53

       to embrace reality.

    2. JSJames Sexton53:55

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman53:55

       Both potential negatives, but also to enrich the positives.

    4. JSJames Sexton54:00

       And imagination. I think imagination, too. I think that marriage is about an imagined future, right? Like, it's about "We're going to build this thing. What's it look like?" Like, when you and your business partner sat down together, you had an imagination together. Like, you weren't just like, "Okay, what are we going to do today?" What are we building?

    5. AHAndrew Huberman54:17

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JSJames Sexton54:18

       What do we want it to be? You know? And by the way, it never ends up being what you thought it would be. It- it- it turns-

    7. AHAndrew Huberman54:24

       No.

    8. JSJames Sexton54:24

       ... into something completely different.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman54:25

       There was no premonition. I mean-

    10. JSJames Sexton54:26

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman54:27

        ... that's a very different scenario, but-

    12. JSJames Sexton54:28

        But I don't think it's really even that different.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman54:31

        ... no premonition. Yeah.

    14. JSJames Sexton54:31

        I think that, you know, if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans. Like, I think the best thing is this vague idea of, like, "What do we want to do? I don't know, some- I want to do something exciting together. I don't know what exactly what it's going to look like. I think this is the loose structure, but I don't know exactly what it is." Like, you know, you and I are friends. Like, we didn't talk about what we were going to talk about today.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman54:50

        Right.

    16. JSJames Sexton54:50

        You know, we talked a dozen times, but we didn't go, "So, so what should we talk about?" Why? Because I think if we did, it wouldn't be authentic. Like, there's something so much better about, like, yeah, we want to have a good conversation, something of value, something we'll both enjoy, and then maybe the people watching would enjoy, you know? So that's so much better. And- and I think that's what you're doing with- with a prenup or with a marriage, is you're imagining a future together. "Okay, what does it look like? Tell me."

    17. AHAndrew Huberman55:17

        So it's not just about the rule outs. Like, I think about, um-

    18. JSJames Sexton55:21

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman55:21

        ... you know, certain guidelines, like in, uh, in the Octagon, it's, you know, no groin shots-

    20. JSJames Sexton55:26

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman55:26

        ... you know, no- no-

    22. JSJames Sexton55:27

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman55:27

        ... thumbing eyes. Um, so there's all the...This is not going to happen, type stuff.

    24. JSJames Sexton55:32

        Right, and there's reasons for each of those rules.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman55:33

        Like- like, no matter what, X, Y, and Z are off the table.

    26. JSJames Sexton55:36

        Right.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman55:36

        That makes people feel safe.

    28. JSJames Sexton55:37

        Right.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman55:38

        Right? Because you wanna know that certain-

    30. JSJames Sexton55:39

        Yeah.
11. 1:02:37 – 1:16:27

    Marriage & Underlying Problems, Love, Successful Marriages

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:37

       think people are completely honest with themselves and with the other person when they decide to get married, or simply to become, quote unquote, "life partners," or to just become partners? I mean, do you think that part of the, um, the allure of the dopamine, oxytocin, pheromone, social crow- uh, cloud, excuse me-

    2. JSJames Sexton1:03:00

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:01

       ... and all that goes with it-

    4. JSJames Sexton1:03:02

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:02

       I mean, what's more fun than leaving the bedroom with someone you're totally crazy about, showering up and heading out-

    6. JSJames Sexton1:03:10

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:11

       ... and going to see friends-

    8. JSJames Sexton1:03:12

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:13

       ... and you're happy, they're happy-

    10. JSJames Sexton1:03:15

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:16

        ... and then going back home again, repeat?

    12. JSJames Sexton1:03:19

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:19

        Like, there are very few things that, that are as, um, from the other side of, uh, of the fence to, uh, to see a couple that's really happy and in love and-

    14. JSJames Sexton1:03:27

        Oh, yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:27

        And you don't need to know or care about what they do in private. You just, you can feel how much they adore one another.

    16. JSJames Sexton1:03:33

        Yeah, you feel the vibe off of them.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:34

        Yeah, I mean, I think there's a pheromone effect of that. I mean, and-

    18. JSJames Sexton1:03:37

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:37

        There's really serious primate biology that supports all that-

    20. JSJames Sexton1:03:40

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:40

        ... that we don't even have to discuss. We can just kind of like put that one on the shelf, and everyone knows what we're talking about. But, you know, underneath there is, um, like you said, are needs.

    22. JSJames Sexton1:03:49

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:50

        Needs that, in the future, um, somebody might not feel are being met-

    24. JSJames Sexton1:03:54

        Sure.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:54

        ... and that sort of thing. It's hard to anticipate one's needs, too-

    26. JSJames Sexton1:03:56

        Sure.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:56

        ... especially if it's a first relationship-

    28. JSJames Sexton1:03:58

        Sure.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:58

        ... or third relationship, you know?

    30. JSJames Sexton1:03:59

        Sure.

Episode duration: 3:38:09