Huberman LabHarnessing Passion, Drive & Persistence for Lifelong Success | Tony Hawk
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,359 words- 0:00 – 3:16
Tony Hawk
- AHAndrew Huberman
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk is one of the most celebrated and accomplished professional skateboarders of all time. For more than 40 years, he has been at the forefront of the sport. And I don't mean just doing a sport for more than 40 years. I truly mean he has been at the forefront of skateboarding, developing new maneuvers, AKA tricks, that include incredible feats like the 900, a 900-degree spin in the air, as well as numerous other maneuvers that have really pushed the entire sport forward. He's also completely popularized the sport through his video game and through his ambassadorship for skateboarding. In fact, few, if any, names are as synonymous with skateboarding in the general public as Tony Hawk. And he is, oh, so deserved of that title because for more than 40 years he has shown up as the consummate professional. He is kind, he is respectful, and he is completely committed to his craft, and that shows up in every aspect of his life. He still, to this day, skateboards daily and as you'll soon learn, he recently suffered a major injury, a complete break of his femur. That is the bone in his upper leg, and this is what many people would consider a career-ending injury. Not only did Tony come back from that injury, but he went back to the very trick on which he broke his femur and recently completed that trick. That is a 540 or so-called McTwist. I mention this because at every level of his life, Tony has demonstrated himself to be somebody with incredible drive, incredible vision, and incredible persistence. And today we talk about that drive, vision, and persistence, and we talk about what it takes to set a goal and to continually evolve one's goal and to continually progress as a basically young pre-teen, as a teenager, as a young adult, as an adult and, well, let's face it, as a 55-year-old man. He is now hitting a little bit past middle age, although we do hope that he lives forever. Tony Hawk, AKA The Birdman, really does seem to be superhuman. But as you'll learn today, he is, oh, so human in the way that he shares his own experience and shares with you the ways in which we can each and all look at what we do and think about what we want to achieve and put our minds and our bodies to those goals and achieve them. I confess that today's discussion with Tony Hawk was a particularly thrilling one for me to have. I grew up in the sport of skateboarding. So I had met Tony previously, although he doesn't remember it. That was many years ago. In fact, I met his parents. You'll learn more about that story, uh, during today's episode. But I was aware, of course, of Tony's accomplishments. I was also aware of his philanthropy. So he has a skate park foundation. I also listened to his podcast with another professional skateboarder, Jason Ellis, called Hawk Versus Wolf. We provided a link to that podcast in the show note captions as well. But never before have I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to the Tony Hawk and learn from him. So I was absolutely delighted to have this conversation and it far exceeded my already lofty expectations.
- 3:16 – 5:55
Sponsors: LMNT & ROKA
- AHAndrew Huberman
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means plenty of electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, but no sugar. The electrolytes and hydration are absolutely key for mental health, physical health, and performance. Even a slight degree of dehydration can impair our ability to think, our energy levels, and our physical performance. LMNT makes it very easy to achieve proper hydration, and it does so by including the three electrolytes in the exact ratios they need to be present. I drink LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up. I usually mix it with about 16 to 32 ounces of water. If I'm exercising, I'll drink one while I'm exercising, and I tend to drink one after exercising as well. Now, many people are scared off by the idea of ingesting sodium because obviously we don't want to consume sodium in excess. However, for people that have normal blood pressure, and especially for people that are consuming very clean diets, that is, consuming not so many processed foods or highly processed foods, oftentimes we are not getting enough sodium, magnesium, and potassium, and we can suffer as a consequence. And with LMNT, simply by mixing with water, it tastes delicious, it's very easy to get that proper hydration. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to DrinkLMNT, that's L-M-N-T.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase. Again, that's Drink LMNT, L-M-N-T.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA. ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality. I've spent a lifetime working on the biology of the visual system and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges in order for you to be able to see clearly. ROKA understands this and has developed their eyeglasses and sunglasses so that you always see with perfect clarity. In addition, they are extremely lightweight and they won't slip off your face if you get sweaty. Indeed, ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were initially designed for performance in sports, but now they include aesthetics and styles that are really designed to be worn anytime. I, for instance, wear readers at night. I'll sometimes wear sunglasses during the day when I drive and of course, I do not wear sunglasses when I do my morning sunlight viewing, which I highly recommend everyone do their morning sunlight viewing. If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses or sunglasses, you can go to ROKA, that's R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order. Again, that's ROKA, R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout. And now for my discussion with Tony Hawk.
- 5:55 – 11:08
Childhood & Self-Concept
- AHAndrew Huberman
Tony Hawk, welcome.
- THTony Hawk
Thanks.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm particularly thrilled to have this conversation because...I've tracked your career for a very long time. Grew up in the skateboard thing.
- THTony Hawk
I, I know. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Had your poster on my wall.
- THTony Hawk
Oh, thank you.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Your name is synonymous with skateboarding, as you know. I think a question that probably get asked from time to time, but let's just clarify the data from the outset. Tony Hawk is your real name, right?
- THTony Hawk
Yes. Anthony Frank Hawk. But I never went by Anthony. My, I mean, my parents called me Tony since I could remember, so.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's a fitting name, uh, given the sport and what you do. And we will get into this a little bit later when we talk about family and parenting and parents, um, but I'll allude to the story now that, uh, when I was 14 years old, your parents took me in.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
I slept in your bed-
- THTony Hawk
I know. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, in your home.
- THTony Hawk
So wild.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Not with you in it, but surrounded by your, a near infinite number of trophies. And I, and I-
- THTony Hawk
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I, and, um-
- THTony Hawk
It must've been right after I moved out.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So this would be, I was 14 years old, maybe I'll just tell the story now very briefly. I was 14 years old, I was at a contest at Linda Vista Boys Club.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Everyone left, me and another kid named Billy Waldman, uh, were still there. Your dad said, "Where, where are you going?" Um, it was clear that I didn't know where I was going. My life was, I was a wayward youth at that time. And so they took me in for, uh, a night, maybe even two nights. Your mom, uh, Nancy, and your dad, Frank, were so gracious. Brought me in, into your home, took me to dinner.
- THTony Hawk
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I don't recall-
- THTony Hawk
That does, I mean, that tracks. That w- that was definitely my dad and my mom together would be doing that, yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yes. Incredible people. Um, and we'll get back to that story later, 'cause you and I actually met, uh, the next day in Fallbrook, uh, at your ramp. But-
- THTony Hawk
Oh, Fallbrook. So it had've been '88, '89.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's right. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say '89.
- THTony Hawk
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And it must've been one of the e- either NSA or Castle contests-
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- 11:08 – 16:58
Early Skateboarding & Skateparks
- THTony Hawk
- AHAndrew Huberman
Did you immediately start skateboarding in the parks, on transition as we say?
- THTony Hawk
Um...
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or, or were you pushing around in the driveway like most kids?
- THTony Hawk
I was, it was, I was transportation. And skating was kind of a fad, so I started in '78 roughly, maybe '77 even. And it was kind of a fad, so kids just had skateboards and they would, they would all cruise around. You know, like, it was the '70s, so everyone had a bike, right? And you knew wherever all the kids were 'cause the bikes were in the front lawn. And then at some point, that kinda turned into skating. So everyone had skateboard. They were all, like, shitty, you know, uh, JCPenney or-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- THTony Hawk
... Big Box store skateboards. No one had really good one, not in my area. Um, but then at some point, we were just looking at these magazines of people skating and everyone's skating in pools, 'cause that was the Dogtown and Z-Boys era. And it was like, "These guys are flying. I wanna, like, where do we do that?" And then-... skate park opened up in San Diego, um-
- AHAndrew Huberman
That was Delmar Skatepark?
- THTony Hawk
Uh, Oasis.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Skate Ranch? Okay, Oasis.
- THTony Hawk
Oasis Skatepark was the first one in our area. Actually, I take that back. Spring Valley was the first skate park. I tried to go there, and I was nine and you had to be 10. And I remember, like, sitting in the parking lot looking over the fence, and my dad didn't realize what the age, 'cause my dad would've easily lied for me, but he didn't realize there was an age limit, and he said, "How old is he?" "Nine." "Oh, sorry, he can't come." And then they closed not long after, so wham, I never got to skate at Spring Valley. Um...
- AHAndrew Huberman
'Cause I, I think of you as synonymous with Delmar Skate Ranch.
- THTony Hawk
Sure, well that was, that became later because Oasis Skate Park was open, that, so this was, when I first went was, like, '78. Uh, a friend of mine was going, and he said, "I'm gonna go to the, the skate park." So I had to go get, y- you know, it was such a hassle, like, I had to go get the authorization form, I had to get it notarized by the bank for my parents to, like, to go there. And then I went and it was, that was my epiphany. When I first saw people flying around in person, I was like, "This is what I'm doing for as long as I could possibly do it." 'Cause it looked, it looked like magic. It really did. It looked like they were flying on magic carpets. And, and it spoke to me in the sense of being a daredevil, but also doing it individually, not relying on my team, not, um, getting ha- getting hassled by a coach. It was just like, oh, I can be part of the scene but do it my own way. And then, uh, I skated Oasis as much as I could, as m- whenever I could get rides there. And, um, then my parents moved to North County, San Diego when I was in high school, um, mostly because they were just chasing kind of real estate deals. And, uh, and so I got lucky that Delmar Skate Ranch was right there. Every other park closed, but Delmar Skate Ranch remained open, so, I mean, there was a bit of luck to all that, and it was based on geography.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Your dad's involvement is interesting because I got into skateboarding because, you know, my dad wasn't around that much at that time. Um, a lot of kids get into skateboarding because it doesn't require parent involvement.
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Was it unusual to have parental involvement at that stage?
- THTony Hawk
Yes, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I mean, I remember Frank, and by the way, I remember Frank and Nancy, your parents, with- with su- with such fondness, not just 'cause they took me in, but I remember thinking, like, there, they were at times the only point of stability in a landscape of, like, 200 people, where as you know there could be, like, potential chaos of any kind.
- THTony Hawk
Oh yeah, always.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And your dad had this way of moving about, like, he wasn't afraid, I recall that he wasn't afraid to say what he thought, like, "Hey, don't do that," like impose some regulation at these contests.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And at the same time, it seemed he also understood that this was a sport unlike other sports. Like, you're not gonna regulate kids like me (laughs) at the time, or, um, you're not gonna try and control people. So what was it like to have your dad involved? And the reason I ask is that you're a parent, we'll talk more about parenting, but also it seems that he went from saying, okay, you know, Little League, other sports, which is more typical, to, okay, this kind of unusual sport, skateboarding, but your mere interest in it was enough to get him excited or motivated enough to take you around-
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... to these places. Um, that's pretty special. I mean, that's pretty unique.
- THTony Hawk
It was, I mean, and- and in that respect, it was great to have his support and- and to rely on him for that. The fact that he was always around and that he was in charge of- of a lot of the events, th- that- that sucked because- because it just marked me, um, as one being (laughs) favorited, um, and spoiled. Um, and- and most of my friends, their parents didn't want them skating. So even though they were stoked that my dad had, was- was doing this kind of thing and giving that kind of support, they still were like, "Your- your dad's here. Like, this is our thing, this is our scene, this is our getaway from our parents." W- I- I didn't really have a choice in the matter. I did, I did at some point tell him my- m- my concerns and my, um, frustrations with it, but he didn't really wanna hear it, (laughs) you know? He was, he was very much steadfast, like, "Well, I'm- I'm been coming this far, like, you can, we can keep our distance at these events, but people are relying on me to organize them." And so I just had to suck it up for a while.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Did it push you harder? Like, you know, if you could prove yourself with the skateboarding-
- THTony Hawk
Um...
- AHAndrew Huberman
... then you didn't have to worry about any claims-
- THTony Hawk
Maybe a bit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... of favoritism? 'Cause ultimately-
- 16:58 – 23:10
Adolescence, Skateboarding
- AHAndrew Huberman
and I suppose back then, I recall you were, you were quite a bit s- skinny or skinnier.
- THTony Hawk
Oh yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, you-
- THTony Hawk
Oh I had, I had all kinds of (laughs) things going against me at the time.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, I mean, I don't think people realize this unless they've met you in person, but nowadays there are few taller skateboarders out there 'cause the sport's grown so much. Um, but you're pretty tall, you're like 6...
- THTony Hawk
6'3", but-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- THTony Hawk
... I was not when I was growing, when I was that age, I was very small. Um, and kind of concerningly small because by the time I got to be 16, I was still, I looked like I was 13.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- THTony Hawk
I used to get pulled over. I literally, like, I had a car that I bought with my earnings. I had a Honda Civic, 1977 CVCC, and I would get pulled over. And then the cops would be like, "How- how old are you?" I go, "I'm 16." Like, "Well, you looked like you were 13 back there." Um, and then I shot up around age 17.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay. So that's interesting and we can get back to this when we talk about your almost remarkable levels of ability to recover from physical injuries because, um, well, I'll just share a little bit of biological theory here, which is that, you know, there are a lot of people that study longevity, and...... perhaps the fastest rate of aging that we ever undergo is puberty, right? If you think about it-
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... a kid before puberty, a kid after puberty-
- THTony Hawk
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... it's like a different human being...
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... psychologically, often physically as well. Some people have a longer arc of puberty than others, and that does seem to correlate with a longer life. And so it's kind of interesting, you know, some kids hit puberty and they go through all the markers of puberty in, like, one summer.
- THTony Hawk
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Other kids, it's very, very long. And it sounds like, we don't have to talk about when you hit puberty and the other markers, but it sounds like your growth spurt occurred late.
- THTony Hawk
Oh, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's a terrific marker of a long life, by the way.
- THTony Hawk
Hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because what it reflects is the onset of a big burst of growth hormone out of the pituitary and the brain. And if you continue to grow for a long period of time, that indicates, you know, it gives you a little bit of the, the slope of the line. Does that make sense?
- THTony Hawk
Oh, yeah, for sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, um, this, this may, um, have important and fortunate consequences. So at 17 you shot up, am I correct in remembering, uh, maybe you said it, maybe somebody else did, that you were, um, forgive me, but so skinny when you were a kid that you actually wore elbow pads as kneepads?
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, that's a true s- that's a true story?
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, for sure. And, and I took inspiration from others that, that I identified with, namely Steve Caballero, because he was already an established pro when I started to come up in the ranks or even get noticed at all. And he was wearing elbow pads on his knees in this full page picture of him in Winchester doing a backside air. And I was like, "That, I want to do that. And he's small, and I feel like that's my goal."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, and Stevie-
- THTony Hawk
And I didn't say, like, "If he can do it, I can do it."
- 23:10 – 34:22
Turning Professional, The Bones Brigade
- AHAndrew Huberman
14 and be a professional at anything must be, um, a, a trip, so to speak. Um, but what I'm wondering about, because I came up when, um, y- your early cohort with Powell Peralta, so for those that don't know, so-called Bones Brigade.
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? I guess it was what total, what like six, seven guys? There were some that were a little more peripheral than others.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, there about six, seven of the core guys, um, in the various videos. I mean, you guys were famous, right? You had posters, um, on kids' walls who skateboarded. There was a second or maybe it was a third surge of popularity in skateboarding, um, because it would sort of surge in general popularity and then disappear and come back, as it has over decades.
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It keeps coming and going, um, to some extent. Did you have a conscious awareness of just how, you know, how much attention was being placed on, you know, photos of you, videos of you? And I'm just wondering about the younger version of you, whether or not, you know, you realized what was happening and the reason I ask is because you've always seemed to me somebody who through interviews, through videos, through our interactions, and for those who have known you much longer than I have...... um, just very grounded. Like, not caught up in it. Um, you know, we've never seen headlines about you kind of just, you know, blowing all your money, or, you know, wrecking cars and, you know-
- THTony Hawk
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... destroying your life. I mean, I'm sure you've made mistakes like any of us, but, but you seem to have avoided a lot of the pitfalls of, quote unquote, "famous people and celebrities."
- THTony Hawk
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And yet, you were a famous person from a very young age.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, I, I... Well, I think it was that I didn't ever, I never, that was never a goal, and then when I had a sense of it, I was very uncomfortable. I mean, I was happy. I was happy to be successful, I was happy that people recognized me. That, that was amazing. J- just because I was good at skateboarding. I never imagined something like that. Um, and, but I was always very... I mean, some people thought that I was sort of almost, like, pompous or arrogant because I wasn't interacting-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Really?
- THTony Hawk
... because I was just, I was walled off. It's like, I'm, I don't know what to do. I don't-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Gosh, those are, those are the l- last words I would ever use to describe you.
- THTony Hawk
I think it was just more that, that, that people would see me, like, I'd go to a ramp. I didn't know anybody and I would just start skating and I'd do all my stuff and they were like, "Oh, he doesn't even talk to anyone." And it w- and I was like, "I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to act." And then Stacy-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Also, you were 14 years old.
- THTony Hawk
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- THTony Hawk
So Stacy broke me out of that 'cause I remember one time there was a kid that was just staring at me, like, holding my skateboard. He had my signature model and he's like, "Go say hi to that guy." "What? Are you sure?" Like, "He wants, he wants to interact with you. You know? Just go high five him or anything." And, and I learned to sort of break out of my comfort zone by doing that enough. Um, but my first go around, I mean, that was, that was sort of my first, uh, wave of fame, I'd say, the Bones Brigade years. And we were so young that we thought this is forever. And so we were definitely careless with our, our money, with our actions, and, um, and at some point, my dad saw that he didn't think it was gonna be long term 'cause no one had had a long term career, right? So he, he, uh, encouraged me to, to invest, to get property, like, to, to buy a house. That was the, that was my saving grace 'cause I definitely was spending. (laughs) You know?
- AHAndrew Huberman
On cars and things of that sort?
- THTony Hawk
Uh, yeah, car... Like, kind of a little bit beyond my means. I wasn't really considering d- All of my money was, was 1099 income, so it wasn't, we weren't paying taxes on anything, and then at the end of the year, it would be like, "Oh, you owe this much." Like, "Wait, what are you talking about?" So, um, uh, for instance, "Hey, do you wanna go to Hawaii?" "Yeah." "Okay, invite everyone. We're all going to Hawaii. I got..." Well, "Let's rent a place." "Okay." You know, and it was on me 'cause I had the means.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You mentioned Stacy. We should probably clarify for people, um, Tony's referring to the great Stacy Peralta.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh-
- THTony Hawk
He was, he was the one who put me on the Bones Brigade when I was still considered sort of a circus act. Like a, m- you know, my, my skating was not really established. The stuff that I was doing was largely made fun of because people thought that what I was doing was just more like a freak show.
- AHAndrew Huberman
C- can you explain more? So my, m- and let me just tell you that my recollect- first recollection of you that I still have that image in my mind would, um, is the finger flip air.
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? You know, so, for folks that aren't familiar with skateboarding, you know, people ride around on transition or in the street, hand rails, stairs. You know, people probably familiar with all those things. But, um, skateboarders will ride up toward the top of the pool or the ramp and they'll do something on the so-called lip or the coping, that's to ride at the, the edge of it, or they'll go above it, like, i- in the air. But I recall seeing you do the finger flip air.
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- 34:22 – 35:27
Sponsor: AG1
- THTony Hawk
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 35:27 – 40:33
Trick Development & Evolution
- AHAndrew Huberman
So it's clear you had enormous drive. Le- let's talk a little bit about, um, the process of trying tricks, the anxiety associated with it. Did you, did you and do you have a sort of systematic process? Was it, you know, um, "I'm gonna learn the basics first." Like did you say that? Did you say, "I'm... Okay, I'm gonna learn how to do stuff, you know, at coping level, then I'm gonna do a little air, then I'm gonna go bigger, I'm gonna do this." Or, um, did you just sort of, um, try what you wanted to try and s- you obviously weren't haphazard about it. Like how... It seems you're pretty systematic about exploring what's possible and then pushing forward little by little. But, um, yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit about how you have conceptualized, "Okay, tomorrow I wanna try this." Um...
- THTony Hawk
I- i- it comes in different forms, but for the most part I think about how I could combine existing tricks and would this trick work going into this trick?... and could your body position shift, or would it all work in unison? And when I approach a new trick, I- I'm say- I'm saying more in the last 20 years, my thought process is, I have all the pieces to this. I've done every bit of it. I've done the, I've done the first part of the trick in another form. I've done the second part, or the grinding of it, or whatever, usually in some other basic way, and then the landing is, well, the landing is from whatever that is. And if you can throw all those things together and make the timing work, it's gonna work. And I- I never, I never went at something with some hapha- hazard approach or throwing caution to the wind, like hope this, see what happens.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- THTony Hawk
It's always very much like, I know I have all these things, and so I just have to put them together and... I mean, now, things are so technical that my same approach that I'm doing hundreds of times, one of them just works, and it's not because I didn't, it's not because I committed to that one. It's because of some tiny fractional adjustment that happened that I didn't even know happened and it just worked. And, I mean, that kind of is the curse of what tricks are now, 'cause, uh, there are plenty of moves that I've done over the last ten years even that I- I only did once, 'cause it was too fucking hard to get to, and I didn't learn from that one make, and that, that is, that's hard to accept, 'cause in the past I was learning tricks to have them in my arsenal, that I could just throw them down at a competition or a demo. I've got that in my pocket. These days, like that trick, for instance, I did a, I did a 360 shuvit, 5-0 to fakie, all right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
All right, let's, let's break that down for the view-
- THTony Hawk
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... 360 shuvit. So who's gonna take this on? I'll let you take this on.
- THTony Hawk
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I can try it from my knowledge and perspective, but why don't-
- THTony Hawk
All right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... well, you, well, you try.
- THTony Hawk
360 shuvit is pushing the board with your feet and letting it spin a full 360 rotation under your feet and then landing back on it. It's, it's a trick that people do on, usually on flat ground. I've learned, I've learned to do it up on the vert walls. Like I can do 360 shuvits kind of in the air. But I'm doing that, I'm doing a 360 shuvit and then I'm landing on my truck, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like the axle between the wheels, yep.
- THTony Hawk
On one, on one axle in a what we call 5-0 position, which is basically a wheelie on the truck. So everything is so precise. I gotta do a 360 shuvit at exactly a certain spot on the wall. I've gotta catch it so that my truck lands when my foot hits it. I can't push it into the truck 'cause that, that screws up my balance. So it has to land on the truck. I have to land with my weight perfectly set back enough that I can come in backwards, because I'm doing this trick and, and I'm, I'm gonna come in fakie, right? 360 shuvit 5-0 to coming in forward is, is a whole different beast. That, that I could probably do that just in a few tries. But the idea that I have to land on this thing, balance on it like a teeter-totter, and then reverse my energy and come in fakie.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Backward, yeah.
- THTony Hawk
It's so hard. It's so hard to, to get into the right position. So, like, any time I try it, there's like a one in ten chance I'm even gonna get into the position I need, and that's the one I have to commit to. So every time I do it, it's so intense and it takes so much, so much commitment and, and so much m- mind... (exhales) I don't even know how to explain it, like the, th- th- that you have shut everything else out except this one moment and this one fractional piece that you have to make work, and it... I- I've done it once, and I, like, I would love to do it again, but I know what it's gonna... It's gonna take the same amount of effort. I didn't learn from that one that I made some trick that makes it happen every time. It's all so technical and there's so many things that can go wrong that I'll just accept that, okay, I did it once.
- 40:33 – 47:09
Visualization, Dreaming
- AHAndrew Huberman
In thinking about the 360 shuvit, 5-0 fakie-
- THTony Hawk
(laughs) Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, was that something that you thought of the night before, you decide that day? Do you ever use visualization? Have you ever had, um, learning come to you in a dream or find that you tried, tried, tried something, went to sleep that night, next day made it? Anything like that?
- THTony Hawk
I- i- Yes. Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll write down something.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- THTony Hawk
'Cause it's like, "Oh, there's this trick. Oh, I think I could do that. Yeah, okay, let me write it down."
- AHAndrew Huberman
So you dream about skateboarding from time to time?
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, well, yeah. That has shifted a bit after I got hurt, but yeah. I used to dream that I can't skate, like, I'm trying and th- it feels like the ramp's made of carpet. I can't get the speed. I can't get the timing, and then as I went through this traumatic injury, my dreams shifted to, "Wow, I can skate. I can do all my tricks again."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, interesting.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
A little, uh, piece of science around the can't, uh, can't skate piece or when people feel like they're bolted down in a dream or they can't run away.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There's this one phase of sleep called rapid eye movement sleep where the brain is very active, the dreams associated with it tend to be very vivid, and at the same time we are completely paralyzed, and the idea is that no one really knows why but that it's the case that we're paralyzed to prevent us from acting out our dreams. It's also an interesting neurochemical phenomenon 'cause during these rapid eye movement dreams they tend to be very intense, but the body can't release adrenaline. So it's almost like its own form of trauma therapy.
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like you're experiencing this intense thing in your mind-
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but your body can't react.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And so oftentimes people, uh, have argued that that's why you feel like you want to move and you can't because-
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you actually can't.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Some people have woken up while still a bit paralyzed in REM. Have you ever had that happen where you wake up and f-
- THTony Hawk
No, but I, I, but, uh, actually a couple of my kids have, have struggled with that a couple of times.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm. Yeah, REM interference it's called.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's not dangerous and usually people can jolt themselves out-
- THTony Hawk
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but it's kind of terrifying. So that's interesting. So we'll get to a discussion about the, the recent injury and-... thankfully, recovery from the injury.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- 47:09 – 51:15
“Feeling” While Skateboarding
- AHAndrew Huberman
What feels the best? Like, I, I know that making a new trick feels incredible, especially if you've been at it a long time. Dialing it in so that you can do it again and again is its own form of reward.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but what i- is the maybe list of two or three things that just feels so good?
- THTony Hawk
Well, th- that, for sure, learning new tricks, not even that, that it's something that I created, but just doing something that I've never done before. When I first learned varials, backside varials, no one had done backside varials before. They'd only done them front side. Um, and a varial is where you, you reach down, grab your board, jump in the air, and then turn it 180 under your feet. It's- it's like a shuvit, but you're guiding it with your hand. I learned that halfway up the pool, the f- the main pool in Oa- at Oasis, with no one around. And the feeling I got when I rode away was something that I had never experienced, and (laughs) it is, it is literally the buzz that I've been chasing ever since, because it was like, "I created something."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Varials below coping was the, was the button.
- THTony Hawk
That was it. It really was. And, and if you saw a video of it, you'd be like, "That thing?" Like, what can I say? It was, it was the first time that I thought, uh, I thought of it. Um, I, I went through all the motions of it. I did the work, and I figured it out. And, you know, no one, no one cared, but at some point, I was able to do it.... six feet in the air and do a full 360 varial. And so that was the building block. But, but that feeling was like no other. Um, I'd say that, and then just even to, to strip everything else away, like the most basic tricks, like a backside ollie is, is an, a no-handed aerial. That used to be w- what it was called, backside no-handed aerial. It feels so good because even to this day, people at, people say, "How does the board stay on your feet?" And I can't even tell you how the board stays on my feet. I just know, I know how to maneuver it, and I know how to keep the pressure on it and the friction going. And backside ollies is like, uh, I think it's like a marvel of physics. And, and a clean backside ollie, to me, is, feels as good as anything.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to behold. I confess, I've never done a legitimate backside ollie on vert.
- THTony Hawk
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
On a mini ramp, sure, but not on vert. So I can't relate to the feeling, but I love, love, love the fact that you brought us back to that early varial below coping feeling, and that that marks the essence of what feels so good when you do something else, right?
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's sort of like a, it's a, uh, as a neuroscientist-
- THTony Hawk
It is, it is the same feeling.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I see it as a chemical stamp.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like a chemical fingerprint of progress.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? Um, and I'm also delighted to hear that it still feels that good to do these things. 'Cause I don't think anyone can have the kind of lifelong progression that you've had, and it's still going, uh, without a, not just love of the thing, but love of the feeling that it brings when no one's around. 'Cause you said skating your ramp by yourself, so how often are you on your ramp with, you know, no one's filming for Instagram, no, nothing for a video, nothing for a video game, none of that. Maybe there's, you know, maybe other guys are around, gals around. We'll talk about gals too, 'cause one of the big shifts in skateboarding since I started is that there's some amazing female skateboarders now.
- THTony Hawk
Oh, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, there's a young lady, in fact, that's been skateboarding at your ramp. Forgive me, I can't remember her name. Is it-
- THTony Hawk
Reese.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... Reese?
- THTony Hawk
Reese Nelson. She's the future.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Goodness, goodness gracious.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah. I know.
- AHAndrew Huberman
She is so-
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... good.
- THTony Hawk
So good.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So good. Uh, so we'll get back to that. But I think that, you know, people starting any kind of sport or academic career or business or anything, I think people assume that you go from zero to 100 somehow, and that there are these people that are just selected by genetics or by luck or by some combination of things to just, like, get it and be better than everybody else. But it's clear that you spent a lot of time alone driving some place to skate the next day, or alone at the ramp.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- 51:15 – 58:46
Drive & Discipline; Injuries
- AHAndrew Huberman
So do you ever reflect on that kind of drive, um, and you know, what, what, what that's all about? Or is it just so intrinsic to who you are?
- THTony Hawk
It's more innate. I don't, I don't think about it. I just know I have to do it. Uh, it's like, I mean, I, uh, we can get into it with my injury, but, um, uh, but, but to go back to what you're saying, is you're saying that, that people think that, "Oh, you were chosen for this," or genetics or whatever. If you saw me skate-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Your last name's Hawk after all.
- THTony Hawk
Like, if you saw me skate-
- AHAndrew Huberman
No, I'm just kidding.
- THTony Hawk
... when I first started skating, there was no way you'd think that I was natural or that I had any future in it. I was all gangly. I was all over the place. I was eating shit left and right. Like, it just, it, it wasn't, I wasn't good. I wasn't. I wasn't a natural. Um, I've seen people that are naturals.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- THTony Hawk
And I've seen that, how they don't have that drive. They don't have the discipline. And it's not wasted, but it, they just don't, they don't utilize, they don't take advantage of, of what they have, uh, uh, naturally. And, and for whatever reason. I don't, I don't fault anyone for it. Um, but I've seen both sides of it, and I've also seen other skaters who are just driven and who are not really good, kinda sloppy, and become the best. Andrew Reynolds.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, yeah.
- THTony Hawk
When we put him on our team, he was just like me, super gangly. His board's bouncing around, but he's trying every single trick. And every time he sent me a video, it's some new technique that he's figured out. And he didn't really ha- by the untrained eye, he didn't have the skill set for. And then he became the boss. You know what I mean? So uh, I think it's just you, you have to, you have to give that as much weight as natural talent, if not more. I'd say more.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. I would, I would certainly say more for science, and you know, the people who are in the lab late at night and early in the morning and drilling away, not, uh, not always the smartest. Certainly not the, um, dumbest, but smart enough to show up when other people are leaving and continue.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I think there has to be a little bit of friction internally.
- THTony Hawk
Oh, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I mean, you know?
- THTony Hawk
Uh, yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Maybe, may- maybe externally also, but-
- THTony Hawk
Well-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... just some friction. Some-
- THTony Hawk
I, I-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I'm gonna show you.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah. Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know?
- THTony Hawk
Okay, I, uh, my best example of that, and I haven't talked about this yet, um, 'cause I did it privately, but I, I broke my leg doing a McTwist, something that I've done thousands of times in my-
- AHAndrew Huberman
540.
- THTony Hawk
540, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- THTony Hawk
So it's a, it's a one and a half spin in the backside direction. But that particular grab that you do makes it a McTwist because it makes you kind of flip upside down. So it's kind of a one and a half somersault. I, it's not my trick. It's Mike McGill's trick. I learned it not long after he created it in 1984. Been doing it ever since. I mean, I'm talking about 40 years of McTwists, right? I've gotten hurt once or twice, but not bad. Anyway, I fucked around and found out, did one with no speed last year, thinking I could do it like I was still 20, and got tangled up and, and broke my femur. I had a super long recovery. I had a false start. I had a nonunion fracture, which means my bone never connected back to itself and it kept be- pushing itself further away. Um...And that's all, uh, in the past. I, I got a second surgery in November, and all along in the back of my head is, "I gotta get back to 540s. I have to." And I can't explain why I have to. I hate that it means that much to me, but it, it's in here. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not a sense of pride. It's not like I have to prove this to anyone. I just have to do it. And last week, I did it. It was so scary. And I prepped for it. I, I mean, e- even down to, like, my diet and I, I stopped drinking altogether and I was like, every time I go to the ramp, I'm just trying 540s, like, to get the spin, to get the, to get the landing zone, with no intention of making it. Just that I had to get there, and then I had to have this heart to heart with my wife that, you know, she doesn't want to see me get hurt. She doesn't want to see me risking myself at this age anymore. She doesn't wanna live through another traumatic injury with me. And I had to tell her, like, "I have to do this." She was gracious and accepting and that's all I could ask for. It wasn't like she was like, "Yeah, you gotta go do it." It was like, "Okay. That's who you are." And so she was there. She was my only spectator (laughs) .
- AHAndrew Huberman
So good.
- THTony Hawk
(laughs) .
- 58:46 – 1:05:46
Injury Recovery Practices
- AHAndrew Huberman
you damaged, broke, broke the femur again. So did you allow more rest the second time? What was driving you to-
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, well-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... to get back in it so quickly?
- THTony Hawk
... so the first, the first go around, I just didn't listen to any of the professional advice because I thought, "Well, I've done... I've come this far and I've always been able to push through broken pelvis, broken elbow, um, knee surgeries." And I've always been... The timeline's always very shortened for me because I just get back out there and I, and I get the healing started. But I also am comfortable with what people think is extremely risky. But in this instance, I wanted to get back out there right away. And not long after the Academy Awards, uh, I was actually walking with a cane at that time, and I ditched the cane just to walk out on stage to present the awards. That was my big... my big coming out moment, but it was kind of forced. And as soon as I walked off the stage, I grabbed my cane and I was hobbling in the backstage. Um, but I was... I was skating kind of a mini ramp and, and I was already struggling because I couldn't put my weight on my front foot because my bone still had not connected to itself. So there's a gap in the bone, but there's a... there's a nail, what they call a nail or, you know, a big piece of metal that's holding them in place. But I didn't realize how careful I needed to be with that because it was so precarious, and I decided, "I'm gonna drop in on the mini ramp. Like, I think I'm ready." And, and it wasn't the drop in on the mini ramp, it was me getting to the top of the mini ramp and stepping off my board.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's always that kind of stuff.
- THTony Hawk
And, but, but I just stepped off my board like I would do any other day, but I didn't think I led with my front foot and I felt the bone move in that moment. I, I really f- I felt it... I felt it either twist or get out of place and I was in total denial for months 'cause I just said, "Oh, it just... it just hurts now." Like I, you know, I, "I got this minor setback."And then I finally, eight months into my recovery, seven months into my recovery, I was always in pain. My skating wasn't progressing, I couldn't get speed, and by all measures, I should be back. At least I'd be back to a level that I feel good about, and I went and got x-rays and they said, "Your bone never connected. You have a non-union fracture." And, and, and every time I skated, so my bone's like this, every time I skated, I was pushing it further away, and so my bone was like this on the last x-ray and, and that was the hard truth.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So for those listening, it's l- just laterally displaced. Think about a pipe that's broken in the middle and just one's offset to the other.
- THTony Hawk
And, and as I keep skating, and I, I could force my skate, like I kinda learned this hack where I can put 75% of my weight on my back foot and 25% on my front foot and do what I wanted to do, but it wasn't where I thought I'd be and it just hurt all the time. I mean, it really was like, that was my trigger 'cause I, I have a pretty high tolerance to pain and it was always hurt. Like I, I would dread going to the airport knowing I had to walk to a gate, so I knew something was wrong there. I went to a specialist, um, that deals in non-union fractures and he had a very pragmatic factual approach and it was like, "Oh, I would do this. I'm gonna take that nail out. I'm gonna take the other hardware out and put it together and you cannot move for two months."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Did you obey that order?
- THTony Hawk
I did.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Really?
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So what, what has-
- THTony Hawk
I was chilling. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- THTony Hawk
I was not gonna risk that again.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Did you, um, and do you prioritize things like sleep, um, nutrition, um, just, you know, generally and did you emphasize those things while you were recovering from the injury?
- THTony Hawk
Yeah. I, I, I was very disciplined in my diet, in my schedule, in my sleep. Um, surprisingly, I, I was very busy because, um, I do speaking engagements and suddenly my speaking engagements were getting booked left and right. I mean, to the point where I, I did a tour through Europe last summer of speaking engagements, so that was sorta, that was a silver lining, I guess, to my, my idle time, um, and I leaned into it. You know, I made myself available and, and, uh, it, you know, it's good money and it, it was, it's fun to, to interact and, um, but all through, all through that, of course, the, in the back of my head I was like, "When? When can I skate? When can I skate?" And then when I finally started skating, it was night and day with my leg. I felt like I could lean forward. Suddenly I was learning tricks every s- every session, relearning tricks, um, so I just, I'm just lucky that I got to live (laughs) in this time of modern medicine.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Was that two months the longest you've ever gone without skateboarding vert?
- THTony Hawk
Yeah. Yeah. Without skating at all.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Not even just pushing around?
- THTony Hawk
No.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, good for you for obeying doctor's orders and also-
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, finally.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) ... g- and also good for you for deciding that your rate of recovery is gonna be whatever it is for you because I feel like I'm hearing both things. On the one hand, you listen to the medical professionals. On the other hand, I'm not hearing, "Oh, you know, I looked at the average rate of recovery from this kind of fracture, this and that." It's, it's like, it, it's as if you decided two things at once, that there are experts who have something to offer me here. I'll follow their advice-
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and yet I'm the expert at myself. Here, I'm putting myself in your first person. Uh, Tony's the expert in Tony, and I'm gonna make sure that I come back 100%.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or better.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, not better, but, um, and I've, and I have come to terms with that because I know that I'm not going to be pushing myself the way that I did before I got hurt anymore. There are some tricks now that are way more difficult just because whatever, it's something changed in my body and, for instance, I can't grab shlob. Like, I can't, I, I can't do it consistently. That used to be my go-to grab. Could do that any time over 60 foot gaps, whatever. Like, I could ju- I just grab, I knew where my board was. I knew that was gonna hold onto my feet and half the time I try to grab that way now, I don't reach it or I grab-
- 1:05:46 – 1:06:52
Sponsor: InsideTracker
- THTony Hawk
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 1:06:52 – 1:15:03
Healthy Life Practices & Skateboarding
- AHAndrew Huberman
off. Are there other things that you...... you're thinking, you know, "Can't wait to get back to that." Um, let's set aside slob airs for now. Yeah.
- THTony Hawk
Um, yeah, I- I- I want to get my hand plants back the way I used to do 'em.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Inverts.
- THTony Hawk
I have, yeah, yeah, so invert, like the one-handed handstand. Um, I can do them now but I-
- AHAndrew Huberman
I've seen you doing them recently.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah, but I- but I used... They used to be my signature was a tuck in invert and flop all the way back and, and I can't get ahold of my board to pull it all the way back like I used to. Um, if I can get that, I'll feel like that's it. That's- that's- that was the last milestone.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I feel... I'm not here to, uh, diagnose and, and treat these, uh, specific, uh, skateboard trickisms, but, uh, between your... what you said about the slob air and what you're saying about this-
- THTony Hawk
Well, same grab.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... it seems like there's something about-
- THTony Hawk
Same grab.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... about getting your, your, your-
- THTony Hawk
My-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... front hand around-
- THTony Hawk
Yes, around my knee, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and just kind of pulling it back, back in-
- THTony Hawk
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, behind you.
- THTony Hawk
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So maybe this is, like, the way that the femur's lining up with your pelvis and maybe some off-ramp something or other physical therapy could do it.
- THTony Hawk
I- I- I'm actually working with, um, Bez Korr. He is a, he is the doctor of physical therapy and he has helped me immensely through my recovery. And when I'm frustrated with this motion or... That's the same grab, actually, as the McTwist. He worked on me before it and was just contorting my body and my leg into these positions that I don't really even get to when I'm skating, just to prepare me for that. And he did. But that's what it took.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's interesting that we're, um, talking about skateboarding and we're also talking about physical therapists, we're talking about nutrition, we're talking about sleep.
- THTony Hawk
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So growing up as-
- THTony Hawk
You- you kidding? Like, nah, none of that. None of that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Never imagined any of this?
- THTony Hawk
Never. Never.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And- and I'm chuckling because, you know, growing up in skateboarding, um, early on, uh, for me, uh, not quite as early as you but pretty early, 12, um, and got out of it and fricking back in... Yes, I can still do a thing or two, uh, here and there. Um, but that's not the point. The point is that, you know, the nutrition consisted largely of, you know, fast food or whatever was around. Cigarettes and beer were sort of the, the energy drinks and, uh, (laughs) uh, and, um, supplements of, of the times. This is fortunately changed. But there, there was essentially no health-promoting tools or aspects to it at all.
- THTony Hawk
But th-
- AHAndrew Huberman
But that was back then. But then over time, it seems it's evolved. Like, now I see, um... I saw a couple of posts from Stevie Williams, like he's in the gym.
- THTony Hawk
Sure.
- 1:15:03 – 1:23:00
Video Game Development
- THTony Hawk
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, you've been an amazing ambassador for the sport that's driven so much of that wider acceptance and progression and invitation into different domains. One of the, um, things that I definitely wanna talk about is the video game, right? Because I think that the video game changed a lot of things for the general public in terms of their perception of skateboarding. I mean, what it allowed, of course, is, this is obvious, but it allowed kids that weren't going to, you know, um, bang up their shins or walk in with a broken wrist or, you know, all skinned up to, to do incredible tricks, but in silico on a screen, right? And to kind of pretend that they are the, the pro skateboarder. That's essentially what, what video games are about. And yet when you can see something, just like you can imagine it in a dream or while you're falling asleep, and you can see something and, and hear in air quotes, do something in a video game, it also is going to inspire a number of kids to go outside and grab a real skateboard and try that or try something like that. So clearly the video game was a catalyst for what I consider now the, the wide acceptance of skateboarding as a sport in all its various forms. Um, could you just talk for a little bit a- about the genesis of the video game? Were you into video games prior to-
Episode duration: 2:15:18
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