Harnessing Passion, Drive & Persistence for Lifelong Success | Tony Hawk

Andrew Huberman 0:00 Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk is one of the most celebrated and accomplished professional skateboarders of all time. For more than 40 years, he has been at the forefront of the sport. And I don't mean just doing a sport for more than 40 years. I truly mean he has been at the forefront of skateboarding, developing new maneuvers, AKA tricks, that include incredible feats like the 900, a 900-degree spin in the air, as well as numerous other maneuvers that have really pushed the entire sport forward. He's also completely popularized the sport through his video game and through his ambassadorship for skateboarding. In fact, few, if any, names are as synonymous with skateboarding in the general public as Tony Hawk. And he is, oh, so deserved of that title because for more than 40 years he has shown up as the consummate professional. He is kind, he is respectful, and he is completely committed to his craft, and that shows up in every aspect of his life. He still, to this day, skateboards daily and as you'll soon learn, he recently suffered a major injury, a complete break of his femur. That is the bone in his upper leg, and this is what many people would consider a career-ending injury. Not only did Tony come back from that injury, but he went back to the very trick on which he broke his femur and recently completed that trick. That is a 540 or so-called McTwist. I mention this because at every level of his life, Tony has demonstrated himself to be somebody with incredible drive, incredible vision, and incredible persistence. And today we talk about that drive, vision, and persistence, and we talk about what it takes to set a goal and to continually evolve one's goal and to continually progress as a basically young pre-teen, as a teenager, as a young adult, as an adult and, well, let's face it, as a 55-year-old man. He is now hitting a little bit past middle age, although we do hope that he lives forever. Tony Hawk, AKA The Birdman, really does seem to be superhuman. But as you'll learn today, he is, oh, so human in the way that he shares his own experience and shares with you the ways in which we can each and all look at what we do and think about what we want to achieve and put our minds and our bodies to those goals and achieve them. I confess that today's discussion with Tony Hawk was a particularly thrilling one for me to have. I grew up in the sport of skateboarding. So I had met Tony previously, although he doesn't remember it. That was many years ago. In fact, I met his parents. You'll learn more about that story, uh, during today's episode. But I was aware, of course, of Tony's accomplishments. I was also aware of his philanthropy. So he has a skate park foundation. I also listened to his podcast with another professional skateboarder, Jason Ellis, called Hawk Versus Wolf. We provided a link to that podcast in the show note captions as well. But never before have I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to the Tony Hawk and learn from him. So I was absolutely delighted to have this conversation and it far exceeded my already lofty expectations.

Andrew Huberman 3:16 Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means plenty of electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, but no sugar. The electrolytes and hydration are absolutely key for mental health, physical health, and performance. Even a slight degree of dehydration can impair our ability to think, our energy levels, and our physical performance. LMNT makes it very easy to achieve proper hydration, and it does so by including the three electrolytes in the exact ratios they need to be present. I drink LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up. I usually mix it with about 16 to 32 ounces of water. If I'm exercising, I'll drink one while I'm exercising, and I tend to drink one after exercising as well. Now, many people are scared off by the idea of ingesting sodium because obviously we don't want to consume sodium in excess. However, for people that have normal blood pressure, and especially for people that are consuming very clean diets, that is, consuming not so many processed foods or highly processed foods, oftentimes we are not getting enough sodium, magnesium, and potassium, and we can suffer as a consequence. And with LMNT, simply by mixing with water, it tastes delicious, it's very easy to get that proper hydration. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to DrinkLMNT, that's L-M-N-T.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase. Again, that's Drink LMNT, L-M-N-T.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA. ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality. I've spent a lifetime working on the biology of the visual system and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges in order for you to be able to see clearly. ROKA understands this and has developed their eyeglasses and sunglasses so that you always see with perfect clarity. In addition, they are extremely lightweight and they won't slip off your face if you get sweaty. Indeed, ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were initially designed for performance in sports, but now they include aesthetics and styles that are really designed to be worn anytime. I, for instance, wear readers at night. I'll sometimes wear sunglasses during the day when I drive and of course, I do not wear sunglasses when I do my morning sunlight viewing, which I highly recommend everyone do their morning sunlight viewing. If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses or sunglasses, you can go to ROKA, that's R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order. Again, that's ROKA, R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout. And now for my discussion with Tony Hawk.

Andrew Huberman 5:55 Tony Hawk, welcome.

Tony Hawk 5:57 Thanks.

Andrew Huberman 5:58 I'm particularly thrilled to have this conversation because...I've tracked your career for a very long time. Grew up in the skateboard thing.

Tony Hawk 6:07 I, I know. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 6:08 Had your poster on my wall.

Tony Hawk 6:09 Oh, thank you.

Andrew Huberman 6:10 Your name is synonymous with skateboarding, as you know. I think a question that probably get asked from time to time, but let's just clarify the data from the outset. Tony Hawk is your real name, right?

Tony Hawk 6:22 Yes. Anthony Frank Hawk. But I never went by Anthony. My, I mean, my parents called me Tony since I could remember, so.

Andrew Huberman 6:29 It's a fitting name, uh, given the sport and what you do. And we will get into this a little bit later when we talk about family and parenting and parents, um, but I'll allude to the story now that, uh, when I was 14 years old, your parents took me in.

Tony Hawk 6:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 6:45 I slept in your bed-

Tony Hawk 6:46 I know. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 6:46 ... uh, in your home.

Tony Hawk 6:47 So wild.

Andrew Huberman 6:48 Not with you in it, but surrounded by your, a near infinite number of trophies. And I, and I-

Tony Hawk 6:53 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 6:54 And I, and, um-

Tony Hawk 6:55 It must've been right after I moved out.

Andrew Huberman 6:58 So this would be, I was 14 years old, maybe I'll just tell the story now very briefly. I was 14 years old, I was at a contest at Linda Vista Boys Club.

Tony Hawk 7:06 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 7:06 Everyone left, me and another kid named Billy Waldman, uh, were still there. Your dad said, "Where, where are you going?" Um, it was clear that I didn't know where I was going. My life was, I was a wayward youth at that time. And so they took me in for, uh, a night, maybe even two nights. Your mom, uh, Nancy, and your dad, Frank, were so gracious. Brought me in, into your home, took me to dinner.

Tony Hawk 7:31 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 7:31 Um, I don't recall-

Tony Hawk 7:32 That does, I mean, that tracks. That w- that was definitely my dad and my mom together would be doing that, yes.

Andrew Huberman 7:37 Yes. Incredible people. Um, and we'll get back to that story later, 'cause you and I actually met, uh, the next day in Fallbrook, uh, at your ramp. But-

Tony Hawk 7:44 Oh, Fallbrook. So it had've been '88, '89.

Andrew Huberman 7:47 That's right. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say '89.

Tony Hawk 7:49 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 7:49 And it must've been one of the e- either NSA or Castle contests-

Tony Hawk 7:54 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 7:55 ... um, that your dad was very active in. But we'll get back to that. But, uh, I have so many questions that relate to skateboarding, to you, and really, as a neuroscientist, to the whole concept of a life of continual progression. Because whether or not people listening to this and watching this are skateboarders or not, and I imagine that most of them are not, it's absolutely clear that you've been in this game a very long time and that you've somehow managed to continue to progress over and over, to come back from very severe injuries, and somehow keep getting better and better. So the first question I have is about the younger version of you.

Tony Hawk 8:35 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 8:36 Um, did you have any sort of self-concept? Like, you know, "I wanna be a pro athlete." Or, "I wanna be a skateboarder." Or, "I wanna have a video game named after me."

Tony Hawk 8:49 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 8:50 Right?

Tony Hawk 8:50 Right. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 8:50 Right, exactly. Um, you know, but if you can think back to maybe even pre-skateboarding, do you remember what your self-concept was? You know, this notion of, like, "I'm, I have a self and I'm either similar or different to other kids in some way."

Tony Hawk 9:05 I think that when I was young, I was put in a lot of advanced classes. And not that that felt like a badge of honor, it felt more like I was just classified as a nerd. But then I thought, "Okay, well, that's my strength, so I'll lean into that." And, and I thought that maybe I would be a teacher, 'cause I thought, "Well, I, I get all these concepts and I think I could relate them to kids or to, to my peers." Um, 'cause I helped a lot of my classmates through some of, some classes. Uh, so that's all I really had. I didn't know. And then when I would play sports, I would, I would be okay.

Andrew Huberman 9:40 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 9:41 You know, I wasn't, I wasn't terrible, but I wasn't the VIP or the MVP. And so I was just kinda playing basketball, playing, uh, baseball. Um, and then when I found skateboarding, I mean, it was, it was pretty obvious that that was what I wanted to do. It was, o- once, once I got on a skateboard and realized that I could maneuver it and do things that were unique, th- and not that they were moving the needle or anyone cared, but they were unique in the sense of, like, "I didn't, I've never seen anyone do this, and this feels awesome. And so I just wanna do this." And so I didn't think that this is my career. I was 10. So I just thought, "This is, this is my f-, this is, this is my hobby. This is, this is my thing, um, and I don't wanna play these other sports anymore."

Andrew Huberman 10:29 Did you stop playing all the other sports?

Tony Hawk 10:31 Yes. I, I quit (laughs) I quit little league in the middle of the season when my dad had been appointed president of that chapter of little league, because he was the coach. He was always very involved in all of his kids. W- I have three siblings. So he was always very supportive of whatever they were doing. And then when I was playing baseball, he became the coach, 'cause he had time and he was doing that. He was, he was, you know, almost retired. Um, and then he was such a prominent figure in the little league, they said, "Oh, you're president now." And so then someone else was coach and then I was skating and I was over it.

Andrew Huberman 11:08 Did you immediately start skateboarding in the parks, on transition as we say?

Tony Hawk 11:13 Um...

Andrew Huberman 11:13 Or, or were you pushing around in the driveway like most kids?

Tony Hawk 11:15 I was, it was, I was transportation. And skating was kind of a fad, so I started in '78 roughly, maybe '77 even. And it was kind of a fad, so kids just had skateboards and they would, they would all cruise around. You know, like, it was the '70s, so everyone had a bike, right? And you knew wherever all the kids were 'cause the bikes were in the front lawn. And then at some point, that kinda turned into skating. So everyone had skateboard. They were all, like, shitty, you know, uh, JCPenney or-

Andrew Huberman 11:48 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 11:49 ... Big Box store skateboards. No one had really good one, not in my area. Um, but then at some point, we were just looking at these magazines of people skating and everyone's skating in pools, 'cause that was the Dogtown and Z-Boys era. And it was like, "These guys are flying. I wanna, like, where do we do that?" And then-... skate park opened up in San Diego, um-

Andrew Huberman 12:09 That was Delmar Skatepark?

Tony Hawk 12:10 Uh, Oasis.

Andrew Huberman 12:10 Skate Ranch? Okay, Oasis.

Tony Hawk 12:12 Oasis Skatepark was the first one in our area. Actually, I take that back. Spring Valley was the first skate park. I tried to go there, and I was nine and you had to be 10. And I remember, like, sitting in the parking lot looking over the fence, and my dad didn't realize what the age, 'cause my dad would've easily lied for me, but he didn't realize there was an age limit, and he said, "How old is he?" "Nine." "Oh, sorry, he can't come." And then they closed not long after, so wham, I never got to skate at Spring Valley. Um...

Andrew Huberman 12:41 'Cause I, I think of you as synonymous with Delmar Skate Ranch.

Tony Hawk 12:45 Sure, well that was, that became later because Oasis Skate Park was open, that, so this was, when I first went was, like, '78. Uh, a friend of mine was going, and he said, "I'm gonna go to the, the skate park." So I had to go get, y- you know, it was such a hassle, like, I had to go get the authorization form, I had to get it notarized by the bank for my parents to, like, to go there. And then I went and it was, that was my epiphany. When I first saw people flying around in person, I was like, "This is what I'm doing for as long as I could possibly do it." 'Cause it looked, it looked like magic. It really did. It looked like they were flying on magic carpets. And, and it spoke to me in the sense of being a daredevil, but also doing it individually, not relying on my team, not, um, getting ha- getting hassled by a coach. It was just like, oh, I can be part of the scene but do it my own way. And then, uh, I skated Oasis as much as I could, as m- whenever I could get rides there. And, um, then my parents moved to North County, San Diego when I was in high school, um, mostly because they were just chasing kind of real estate deals. And, uh, and so I got lucky that Delmar Skate Ranch was right there. Every other park closed, but Delmar Skate Ranch remained open, so, I mean, there was a bit of luck to all that, and it was based on geography.

Andrew Huberman 14:13 Your dad's involvement is interesting because I got into skateboarding because, you know, my dad wasn't around that much at that time. Um, a lot of kids get into skateboarding because it doesn't require parent involvement.

Tony Hawk 14:26 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 14:26 Was it unusual to have parental involvement at that stage?

Tony Hawk 14:29 Yes, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 14:29 Um, I mean, I remember Frank, and by the way, I remember Frank and Nancy, your parents, with- with su- with such fondness, not just 'cause they took me in, but I remember thinking, like, there, they were at times the only point of stability in a landscape of, like, 200 people, where as you know there could be, like, potential chaos of any kind.

Tony Hawk 14:45 Oh yeah, always.

Andrew Huberman 14:46 And your dad had this way of moving about, like, he wasn't afraid, I recall that he wasn't afraid to say what he thought, like, "Hey, don't do that," like impose some regulation at these contests.

Tony Hawk 14:55 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 14:55 And at the same time, it seemed he also understood that this was a sport unlike other sports. Like, you're not gonna regulate kids like me (laughs) at the time, or, um, you're not gonna try and control people. So what was it like to have your dad involved? And the reason I ask is that you're a parent, we'll talk more about parenting, but also it seems that he went from saying, okay, you know, Little League, other sports, which is more typical, to, okay, this kind of unusual sport, skateboarding, but your mere interest in it was enough to get him excited or motivated enough to take you around-

Tony Hawk 15:28 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 15:28 ... to these places. Um, that's pretty special. I mean, that's pretty unique.

Tony Hawk 15:31 It was, I mean, and- and in that respect, it was great to have his support and- and to rely on him for that. The fact that he was always around and that he was in charge of- of a lot of the events, th- that- that sucked because- because it just marked me, um, as one being (laughs) favorited, um, and spoiled. Um, and- and most of my friends, their parents didn't want them skating. So even though they were stoked that my dad had, was- was doing this kind of thing and giving that kind of support, they still were like, "Your- your dad's here. Like, this is our thing, this is our scene, this is our getaway from our parents." W- I- I didn't really have a choice in the matter. I did, I did at some point tell him my- m- my concerns and my, um, frustrations with it, but he didn't really wanna hear it, (laughs) you know? He was, he was very much steadfast, like, "Well, I'm- I'm been coming this far, like, you can, we can keep our distance at these events, but people are relying on me to organize them." And so I just had to suck it up for a while.

Andrew Huberman 16:38 Did it push you harder? Like, you know, if you could prove yourself with the skateboarding-

Tony Hawk 16:41 Um...

Andrew Huberman 16:41 ... then you didn't have to worry about any claims-

Tony Hawk 16:43 Maybe a bit.

Andrew Huberman 16:43 ... of favoritism? 'Cause ultimately-

Tony Hawk 16:44 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 16:44 ... you can't fake, you can't fake skateboarding, right?

Tony Hawk 16:47 Right.

Andrew Huberman 16:48 I mean, there's no deep fake version of skateboarding.

Tony Hawk 16:50 No.

Andrew Huberman 16:51 You know? You either can do it or you can't do it, and it's shown in real time. So, um,

Andrew Huberman 16:58 and I suppose back then, I recall you were, you were quite a bit s- skinny or skinnier.

Tony Hawk 17:03 Oh yeah.

Andrew Huberman 17:04 Uh, you-

Tony Hawk 17:04 Oh I had, I had all kinds of (laughs) things going against me at the time.

Andrew Huberman 17:08 Yeah, I mean, I don't think people realize this unless they've met you in person, but nowadays there are few taller skateboarders out there 'cause the sport's grown so much. Um, but you're pretty tall, you're like 6...

Tony Hawk 17:18 6'3", but-

Andrew Huberman 17:19 Okay.

Tony Hawk 17:19 ... I was not when I was growing, when I was that age, I was very small. Um, and kind of concerningly small because by the time I got to be 16, I was still, I looked like I was 13.

Andrew Huberman 17:36 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 17:36 I used to get pulled over. I literally, like, I had a car that I bought with my earnings. I had a Honda Civic, 1977 CVCC, and I would get pulled over. And then the cops would be like, "How- how old are you?" I go, "I'm 16." Like, "Well, you looked like you were 13 back there." Um, and then I shot up around age 17.

Andrew Huberman 17:57 Okay. So that's interesting and we can get back to this when we talk about your almost remarkable levels of ability to recover from physical injuries because, um, well, I'll just share a little bit of biological theory here, which is that, you know, there are a lot of people that study longevity, and...... perhaps the fastest rate of aging that we ever undergo is puberty, right? If you think about it-

Tony Hawk 18:19 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:19 ... a kid before puberty, a kid after puberty-

Tony Hawk 18:20 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 18:20 ... it's like a different human being...

Tony Hawk 18:22 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:22 ... psychologically, often physically as well. Some people have a longer arc of puberty than others, and that does seem to correlate with a longer life. And so it's kind of interesting, you know, some kids hit puberty and they go through all the markers of puberty in, like, one summer.

Tony Hawk 18:35 Right.

Andrew Huberman 18:35 Other kids, it's very, very long. And it sounds like, we don't have to talk about when you hit puberty and the other markers, but it sounds like your growth spurt occurred late.

Tony Hawk 18:44 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:44 That's a terrific marker of a long life, by the way.

Tony Hawk 18:48 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:48 Because what it reflects is the onset of a big burst of growth hormone out of the pituitary and the brain. And if you continue to grow for a long period of time, that indicates, you know, it gives you a little bit of the, the slope of the line. Does that make sense?

Tony Hawk 19:01 Oh, yeah, for sure.

Andrew Huberman 19:02 So, um, this, this may, um, have important and fortunate consequences. So at 17 you shot up, am I correct in remembering, uh, maybe you said it, maybe somebody else did, that you were, um, forgive me, but so skinny when you were a kid that you actually wore elbow pads as kneepads?

Tony Hawk 19:17 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 19:18 Yeah, that's a true s- that's a true story?

Tony Hawk 19:19 Yeah, for sure. And, and I took inspiration from others that, that I identified with, namely Steve Caballero, because he was already an established pro when I started to come up in the ranks or even get noticed at all. And he was wearing elbow pads on his knees in this full page picture of him in Winchester doing a backside air. And I was like, "That, I want to do that. And he's small, and I feel like that's my goal."

Andrew Huberman 19:46 Yeah, and Stevie-

Tony Hawk 19:47 And I didn't say, like, "If he can do it, I can do it."

Andrew Huberman 19:48 Right.

Tony Hawk 19:48 It was just more like, "Oh, this, I identify with that and, and that gives me hope." Um, but-

Andrew Huberman 19:54 And as I recall, Stevie also has a pretty severe scoliosis, right? Like, at one point he w-

Tony Hawk 19:58 Uh, yeah, it's not scoliosis, but he has, he, it's ...

Andrew Huberman 19:59 At one point he was turned, turned pretty, pretty tight...

Tony Hawk 20:02 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 20:03 ... to the, to the right or left, I don't recall which. I mean, still an incredible skateboarder. Love Stevie.

Tony Hawk 20:06 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 20:06 He's a NorCal guy, so I grew up around him.

Tony Hawk 20:08 Yeah, I, I know whatever he had is from birth, but, um, but it was more that, that his size. And I didn't even know he was f- w- oh, m- many, not many, but you know, he's like four years older than me. Um, so I just was like, "Oh, there's small guys doing that. I c- I can do it, maybe." But when I got tall, when I went through puberty, suddenly I had all these tricks and then suddenly I had the, the strength and the, the height that gave me confidence. And so all of a sudden it was like, "Oh, I can go way higher now and I'm comfortable with these tricks, these intricate board maneuvers and stuff." So that was a huge advantage to me. Um, the, the smaller stuff felt different after that, which was harder.

Andrew Huberman 20:54 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 20:55 Um, but being able to blast eight feet in the air as opposed to four feet in the air was a huge advantage.

Andrew Huberman 21:01 Yeah, isn't that wild when the nervous system knows how to do something and then your body changes and you can do the same thing, but with so much more force?

Tony Hawk 21:09 I mean, even, even just, even the bowls look smaller. When I would stand on top of them, I was like, "Wait, this isn't that big." (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 21:16 It's wild. Well, the reason I ask about this, I think, you know, people listening generally seem to assume that, you know, if you become a Stanford professor or you become a professional skateboarder or you become a professional soccer player, that, that you were just fated to become that, right? And it's clear that it's the confluence of so many different factors. Um, but one of the consistent factors for sure is a sense that you just really love doing it, right? I mean, I can't imagine getting, you know, proficient or excellent at anything without loving doing it, right? And so still at this time when you were, let's say, um, 14, 15, um, did you have any concept of, you know, I'm gonna be a pro model, I'm gonna ... none of that?

Tony Hawk 21:57 Well, there was, there was none of that to be had. So we didn't have these great aspirations, because no one had really done that before. There were, you could have some success. Yes, you could have maybe a signature model, but even the top sales of skateboarding then wasn't a career. The prize money was $150 for first place, 100 for second, 50 for third.

Andrew Huberman 22:23 Couple tanks of gas, some food.

Tony Hawk 22:25 Yeah, so let's put it this way. I turned pro when I was 14. By the time I was 15 and a half and I had a, a learner's permit and I could drive, uh, a scooter (laughs) , you know, I had $600 in my bank account, and I used that to buy a Honda Express, uh, moped. For a year and a half, that was my earnings, was $600.

Andrew Huberman 22:49 So clearly money wasn't the, uh, the dopamine hit. It was the, it was the actual skateboarding.

Tony Hawk 22:54 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 22:54 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 22:54 And that's what I mean, though. Th- there wasn't, there was no goal of that, because it just didn't exist. So I, I didn't care. Like, are you kidding me? I, I had my own vehicle at age 15. Like, I was living large. (laughs) I was... I could get to the skate park on my own. That was amazing.

Andrew Huberman 23:09 To be

Andrew Huberman 23:10 14 and be a professional at anything must be, um, a, a trip, so to speak. Um, but what I'm wondering about, because I came up when, um, y- your early cohort with Powell Peralta, so for those that don't know, so-called Bones Brigade.

Tony Hawk 23:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 23:26 Right? I guess it was what total, what like six, seven guys? There were some that were a little more peripheral than others.

Tony Hawk 23:31 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 23:31 Um, there about six, seven of the core guys, um, in the various videos. I mean, you guys were famous, right? You had posters, um, on kids' walls who skateboarded. There was a second or maybe it was a third surge of popularity in skateboarding, um, because it would sort of surge in general popularity and then disappear and come back, as it has over decades.

Tony Hawk 23:53 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 23:53 It keeps coming and going, um, to some extent. Did you have a conscious awareness of just how, you know, how much attention was being placed on, you know, photos of you, videos of you? And I'm just wondering about the younger version of you, whether or not, you know, you realized what was happening and the reason I ask is because you've always seemed to me somebody who through interviews, through videos, through our interactions, and for those who have known you much longer than I have...... um, just very grounded. Like, not caught up in it. Um, you know, we've never seen headlines about you kind of just, you know, blowing all your money, or, you know, wrecking cars and, you know-

Tony Hawk 24:30 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 24:30 ... destroying your life. I mean, I'm sure you've made mistakes like any of us, but, but you seem to have avoided a lot of the pitfalls of, quote unquote, "famous people and celebrities."

Tony Hawk 24:38 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 24:38 And yet, you were a famous person from a very young age.

Tony Hawk 24:43 Yeah, I, I... Well, I think it was that I didn't ever, I never, that was never a goal, and then when I had a sense of it, I was very uncomfortable. I mean, I was happy. I was happy to be successful, I was happy that people recognized me. That, that was amazing. J- just because I was good at skateboarding. I never imagined something like that. Um, and, but I was always very... I mean, some people thought that I was sort of almost, like, pompous or arrogant because I wasn't interacting-

Andrew Huberman 25:13 Really?

Tony Hawk 25:13 ... because I was just, I was walled off. It's like, I'm, I don't know what to do. I don't-

Andrew Huberman 25:16 Gosh, those are, those are the l- last words I would ever use to describe you.

Tony Hawk 25:20 I think it was just more that, that, that people would see me, like, I'd go to a ramp. I didn't know anybody and I would just start skating and I'd do all my stuff and they were like, "Oh, he doesn't even talk to anyone." And it w- and I was like, "I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to act." And then Stacy-

Andrew Huberman 25:32 Also, you were 14 years old.

Tony Hawk 25:33 Right.

Andrew Huberman 25:33 (laughs)

Tony Hawk 25:33 So Stacy broke me out of that 'cause I remember one time there was a kid that was just staring at me, like, holding my skateboard. He had my signature model and he's like, "Go say hi to that guy." "What? Are you sure?" Like, "He wants, he wants to interact with you. You know? Just go high five him or anything." And, and I learned to sort of break out of my comfort zone by doing that enough. Um, but my first go around, I mean, that was, that was sort of my first, uh, wave of fame, I'd say, the Bones Brigade years. And we were so young that we thought this is forever. And so we were definitely careless with our, our money, with our actions, and, um, and at some point, my dad saw that he didn't think it was gonna be long term 'cause no one had had a long term career, right? So he, he, uh, encouraged me to, to invest, to get property, like, to, to buy a house. That was the, that was my saving grace 'cause I definitely was spending. (laughs) You know?

Andrew Huberman 26:36 On cars and things of that sort?

Tony Hawk 26:37 Uh, yeah, car... Like, kind of a little bit beyond my means. I wasn't really considering d- All of my money was, was 1099 income, so it wasn't, we weren't paying taxes on anything, and then at the end of the year, it would be like, "Oh, you owe this much." Like, "Wait, what are you talking about?" So, um, uh, for instance, "Hey, do you wanna go to Hawaii?" "Yeah." "Okay, invite everyone. We're all going to Hawaii. I got..." Well, "Let's rent a place." "Okay." You know, and it was on me 'cause I had the means.

Andrew Huberman 27:06 You mentioned Stacy. We should probably clarify for people, um, Tony's referring to the great Stacy Peralta.

Tony Hawk 27:12 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 27:13 Uh-

Tony Hawk 27:13 He was, he was the one who put me on the Bones Brigade when I was still considered sort of a circus act. Like a, m- you know, my, my skating was not really established. The stuff that I was doing was largely made fun of because people thought that what I was doing was just more like a freak show.

Andrew Huberman 27:32 C- can you explain more? So my, m- and let me just tell you that my recollect- first recollection of you that I still have that image in my mind would, um, is the finger flip air.

Tony Hawk 27:41 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:42 Right? You know, so, for folks that aren't familiar with skateboarding, you know, people ride around on transition or in the street, hand rails, stairs. You know, people probably familiar with all those things. But, um, skateboarders will ride up toward the top of the pool or the ramp and they'll do something on the so-called lip or the coping, that's to ride at the, the edge of it, or they'll go above it, like, i- in the air. But I recall seeing you do the finger flip air.

Tony Hawk 28:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 28:01 I'd never seen anyone f- flip a board in the air.

Tony Hawk 28:03 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 28:03 I'd seen people do varial. So-

Tony Hawk 28:05 Right.

Andrew Huberman 28:06 ... move it. Uh, this is gonna be complicated for people just listening, but just, just flip it upside down and then catch it in and finger flip air.

Tony Hawk 28:12 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 28:12 That was, I remember, that was jaw drop, right? It was like... So if that was considered circus era, or circus, uh, like-

Tony Hawk 28:20 I would say-

Andrew Huberman 28:21 ... then I don't know, I don't know what w- it was being compared to because, at the time, we, we probably watched that, it was in slow motion as I recall, and I, we probably watched it 3,000 times.

Tony Hawk 28:33 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 28:33 You know (laughs) ? That summer, there was a big group of us that all started skateboarding that summer.

Tony Hawk 28:36 Um- I would say kind of just before that in that window is when people were, were more, um, giving me flak for what I was doing because I was mostly doing board variation stuff, but I still didn't have the heighth.

Andrew Huberman 28:52 The heighth in terms of the air? Yeah.

Tony Hawk 28:53 The heighth in terms of, in terms of-

Andrew Huberman 28:54 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 28:54 ... getting in the air.

Andrew Huberman 28:55 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 28:55 So I was doing all the stuff kind of right at coping level. And so people weren't taking it into consideration or giving it much merit because it was just like, "Oh, he's doing a little board twist or board turn." And then when I started to get some height around the time you saw, and started doing those tricks, like, visibly way up high, that's when the, the, the shift happened in terms of more acceptance. But I was still labeled as a, as, like, a trick skater, robot skater. And then you had Christian Hosoi, who was all style. I- Airs higher than anyone.

Andrew Huberman 29:31 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 29:31 Anytime he did a trick, it was gonna be so flashy and so amazing. Right?

Andrew Huberman 29:36 And rock star personality. Yeah.

Tony Hawk 29:37 And rock star personality. And so in that era, you, I mean, it was very divided. It was like no one liked us both. (laughs) You know what I mean? It was just so strange to be of that age and o- of doing something that had never really been established, and then suddenly I'm pitted against another skater and we're just trying to make our way through teen years and, and skateboarding. And, and, um, it got... It was, it was hard. I mean, it was like I got, I got bullied.

Andrew Huberman 30:11 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 30:12 You know? Yes, I was successful. Yes, I was doing, but, but I would get, I would get... Uh, Thrasher Magazine would talk shit about my performance when I would win.

Andrew Huberman 30:21 Yeah, I remember that because I was from Northern California and Thrasher Magazine was a skateboard magazine from Northern California. I actually wrote for them for a while when I was a post-doc to make some extra money-

Tony Hawk 30:29 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 30:29 ... uh, under a different name, folks, but you can try and find those articles. They're out there. Um, and then in Southern California it was Skateboarder Mag, TransWorld, mostly TransWorld Skateboarding. Um...

Tony Hawk 30:39 Yeah. It was pr- it was TransWorld, TransWorld Skateboarding and Thrasher Magazine were the, were the two...

Andrew Huberman 30:44 Yeah, sort of the rivals.

Tony Hawk 30:44 Right.

Andrew Huberman 30:45 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 30:45 Um...

Andrew Huberman 30:46 So yeah, I recall, um, some of those things that were said. Um, it just is amazing to me, um, but it brings about a really important lesson which is, you know, that kid that gets made fun of, if they're determined and they love what they're doing, that's gonna be the kid that blows everyone away later. And I know this for sure because I'll never forget there... Do you remember the Back to the City contests that were held in San Francisco?

Tony Hawk 31:07 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:08 So I went to those. They were in the drain fountains in front of City Hall.

Tony Hawk 31:11 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 31:11 I remember getting there one day and there was this guy with kinda like Afro-like hair pushing around and he was doing what are called daffys. He had two skateboards and he was kinda like weaving around and I remember thinking, you know, San Francisco's got is- its issues now but back then it was rough also.

Tony Hawk 31:24 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 31:24 For different reasons. I remember thinking like, "This guy's gonna get beat up." I hung out with the Embarcadero crew. I was like, "This guy's gonna get beat down."

Tony Hawk 31:31 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 31:31 That guy was Mark Gonzales.

Tony Hawk 31:33 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 31:33 So one of the greatest, perhaps the greatest street skateboarder.

Tony Hawk 31:37 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 31:37 If, you can't really define these things greatest and whatnot in skateboarding. Um, but you know, I remember thinking, "This guy's just... He's a kook." And then I realized who it was.

Tony Hawk 31:47 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 31:47 And then I realized he was just like any other kid there at some level.

Tony Hawk 31:50 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 31:50 And then a lot of the kids that got teased early on, they stuck with it. Five years later, I'm seeing them in the magazines. And I think about this with podcasting too. There have been some podcasters that have reached out early on and had questions, and I look at their stuff and, you know, one's initial impression can be like, "Wait, what are they, like what are they doing here?" And then you just see them two years later, three years later.

Tony Hawk 32:08 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 32:08 And they're doing amazingly well and you're like, "This guy or gal is here for good." They're gonna, they're probably gonna be top of the game in a few years. So you never count anybody out. When you would go to sleep at night in that era, were you like laying on the pillow going like, "Oh my God, people hate me. There's stuff in the magazines. I gotta push harder. This is hard." Did you talk to your dad about it? I mean, again, it's a lot to bear even as an adult. I can only imagine what it's like to bear as a 15-year-old kid.

Tony Hawk 32:35 I didn't really have a support group (laughs) , you know, or any resource to, to voice those concerns. Um, I just knew I wanted to keep getting better. That was it. And so i- if anything, if I was worried about those voices, if I was worried about the whatever take people had on me, I knew I was just gonna go back to the skate park and learn more tricks. Um, and at some point I had so much of that as a foundation that it was sort of undeniable that like, "Well, he, he can do all this stuff and he doesn't, doesn't just do it at his home park." Um, and I think that's probably when the tide turned for me is when, when I started to do well at other events. Um, namely Upland Pipeline, which was for the most part the most frightening pool that we could ride.

Andrew Huberman 33:29 The thing was big, but I also recall like the, the hips as they're called, like the transitions, the way they match up were super tight.

Tony Hawk 33:35 It was, it was s- lot of vert, giant coping, super rough. Like if you fell in Upland, you're getting chewed up. It's pulling your knee pads down.

Andrew Huberman 33:43 I didn't know that 'cause from the photos I wouldn't know that.

Tony Hawk 33:45 Oh, it was, it was treacherous. It really was. Like it was... And, and I wanted to do well at the event and I would drive up there every weekend. My, my friend, uh, Greg Smith was a freestyler but he lived near Upland and so I would go drive Friday after school straight to Upland, skate at night, skate Saturday all day, skate Sunday, uh, early, and then drive home, um, 'cause I live in San Diego. And I just made it my mission to, to figure that thing out because that was the proving ground for me. Um, I might... And so if I could skate that, I could go skate anything.

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Andrew Huberman 35:27 So it's clear you had enormous drive. Le- let's talk a little bit about, um, the process of trying tricks, the anxiety associated with it. Did you, did you and do you have a sort of systematic process? Was it, you know, um, "I'm gonna learn the basics first." Like did you say that? Did you say, "I'm... Okay, I'm gonna learn how to do stuff, you know, at coping level, then I'm gonna do a little air, then I'm gonna go bigger, I'm gonna do this." Or, um, did you just sort of, um, try what you wanted to try and s- you obviously weren't haphazard about it. Like how... It seems you're pretty systematic about exploring what's possible and then pushing forward little by little. But, um, yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit about how you have conceptualized, "Okay, tomorrow I wanna try this." Um...

Tony Hawk 36:10 I- i- it comes in different forms, but for the most part I think about how I could combine existing tricks and would this trick work going into this trick?... and could your body position shift, or would it all work in unison? And when I approach a new trick, I- I'm say- I'm saying more in the last 20 years, my thought process is, I have all the pieces to this. I've done every bit of it. I've done the, I've done the first part of the trick in another form. I've done the second part, or the grinding of it, or whatever, usually in some other basic way, and then the landing is, well, the landing is from whatever that is. And if you can throw all those things together and make the timing work, it's gonna work. And I- I never, I never went at something with some hapha- hazard approach or throwing caution to the wind, like hope this, see what happens.

Andrew Huberman 37:11 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 37:11 It's always very much like, I know I have all these things, and so I just have to put them together and... I mean, now, things are so technical that my same approach that I'm doing hundreds of times, one of them just works, and it's not because I didn't, it's not because I committed to that one. It's because of some tiny fractional adjustment that happened that I didn't even know happened and it just worked. And, I mean, that kind of is the curse of what tricks are now, 'cause, uh, there are plenty of moves that I've done over the last ten years even that I- I only did once, 'cause it was too fucking hard to get to, and I didn't learn from that one make, and that, that is, that's hard to accept, 'cause in the past I was learning tricks to have them in my arsenal, that I could just throw them down at a competition or a demo. I've got that in my pocket. These days, like that trick, for instance, I did a, I did a 360 shuvit, 5-0 to fakie, all right?

Andrew Huberman 38:10 All right, let's, let's break that down for the view-

Tony Hawk 38:11 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 38:11 ... 360 shuvit. So who's gonna take this on? I'll let you take this on.

Tony Hawk 38:14 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 38:14 I can try it from my knowledge and perspective, but why don't-

Tony Hawk 38:17 All right.

Andrew Huberman 38:17 ... well, you, well, you try.

Tony Hawk 38:18 360 shuvit is pushing the board with your feet and letting it spin a full 360 rotation under your feet and then landing back on it. It's, it's a trick that people do on, usually on flat ground. I've learned, I've learned to do it up on the vert walls. Like I can do 360 shuvits kind of in the air. But I'm doing that, I'm doing a 360 shuvit and then I'm landing on my truck, right?

Andrew Huberman 38:45 Like the axle between the wheels, yep.

Tony Hawk 38:46 On one, on one axle in a what we call 5-0 position, which is basically a wheelie on the truck. So everything is so precise. I gotta do a 360 shuvit at exactly a certain spot on the wall. I've gotta catch it so that my truck lands when my foot hits it. I can't push it into the truck 'cause that, that screws up my balance. So it has to land on the truck. I have to land with my weight perfectly set back enough that I can come in backwards, because I'm doing this trick and, and I'm, I'm gonna come in fakie, right? 360 shuvit 5-0 to coming in forward is, is a whole different beast. That, that I could probably do that just in a few tries. But the idea that I have to land on this thing, balance on it like a teeter-totter, and then reverse my energy and come in fakie.

Andrew Huberman 39:35 Backward, yeah.

Tony Hawk 39:36 It's so hard. It's so hard to, to get into the right position. So, like, any time I try it, there's like a one in ten chance I'm even gonna get into the position I need, and that's the one I have to commit to. So every time I do it, it's so intense and it takes so much, so much commitment and, and so much m- mind... (exhales) I don't even know how to explain it, like the, th- th- that you have shut everything else out except this one moment and this one fractional piece that you have to make work, and it... I- I've done it once, and I, like, I would love to do it again, but I know what it's gonna... It's gonna take the same amount of effort. I didn't learn from that one that I made some trick that makes it happen every time. It's all so technical and there's so many things that can go wrong that I'll just accept that, okay, I did it once.

Andrew Huberman 40:33 In thinking about the 360 shuvit, 5-0 fakie-

Tony Hawk 40:35 (laughs) Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 40:36 ... uh, was that something that you thought of the night before, you decide that day? Do you ever use visualization? Have you ever had, um, learning come to you in a dream or find that you tried, tried, tried something, went to sleep that night, next day made it? Anything like that?

Tony Hawk 40:50 I- i- Yes. Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll write down something.

Andrew Huberman 40:54 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 40:54 'Cause it's like, "Oh, there's this trick. Oh, I think I could do that. Yeah, okay, let me write it down."

Andrew Huberman 40:58 So you dream about skateboarding from time to time?

Tony Hawk 41:00 Yeah, well, yeah. That has shifted a bit after I got hurt, but yeah. I used to dream that I can't skate, like, I'm trying and th- it feels like the ramp's made of carpet. I can't get the speed. I can't get the timing, and then as I went through this traumatic injury, my dreams shifted to, "Wow, I can skate. I can do all my tricks again."

Andrew Huberman 41:19 Oh, interesting.

Tony Hawk 41:20 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 41:20 A little, uh, piece of science around the can't, uh, can't skate piece or when people feel like they're bolted down in a dream or they can't run away.

Tony Hawk 41:28 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 41:28 There's this one phase of sleep called rapid eye movement sleep where the brain is very active, the dreams associated with it tend to be very vivid, and at the same time we are completely paralyzed, and the idea is that no one really knows why but that it's the case that we're paralyzed to prevent us from acting out our dreams. It's also an interesting neurochemical phenomenon 'cause during these rapid eye movement dreams they tend to be very intense, but the body can't release adrenaline. So it's almost like its own form of trauma therapy.

Tony Hawk 41:57 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 41:57 It's like you're experiencing this intense thing in your mind-

Tony Hawk 41:59 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 41:59 ... but your body can't react.

Tony Hawk 42:00 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:00 And so oftentimes people, uh, have argued that that's why you feel like you want to move and you can't because-

Tony Hawk 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 42:07 ... you actually can't.

Tony Hawk 42:08 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:08 Some people have woken up while still a bit paralyzed in REM. Have you ever had that happen where you wake up and f-

Tony Hawk 42:12 No, but I, I, but, uh, actually a couple of my kids have, have struggled with that a couple of times.

Andrew Huberman 42:17 Mm-hmm. Yeah, REM interference it's called.

Tony Hawk 42:19 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:19 It's not dangerous and usually people can jolt themselves out-

Tony Hawk 42:21 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 42:21 ... but it's kind of terrifying. So that's interesting. So we'll get to a discussion about the, the recent injury and-... thankfully, recovery from the injury.

Tony Hawk 42:28 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:29 Um, not miraculous because that makes it seem as if it's surprising. Frankly, I'm not surprised that you've recovered, but it is, um, spectacular, uh, the way you have. But you're saying that in your dreams before the injury, you would think about skateboarding, but you felt like there was a kind of can't-do-it component.

Tony Hawk 42:45 Uh, when I was, when I was doing it in my dream-

Andrew Huberman 42:47 Hmm.

Tony Hawk 42:48 ... there was always some roadblock that I just could... Like, "Why can't I get any speed? Why can't I, why can't I snap or do this trick?" Um, it's more in the moments where it's twilight moments, where I'm kind of awake and I'm thinking about tricks, that everything else falls away and I can actually focus on what kind of new moves to come up with.

Andrew Huberman 43:08 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 43:10 Um, uh, an example of that was, uh, recently I went to the X Games in Japan a few weeks ago, uh, and I was thinking... I, I was gonna go more to show my support and... 'cause they had a vert event. There's not a lot of vert events anymore. So I, if there's a vert event, it's kind of like, "If you build it, I will come," 'cause I'm, I wanna s- show my support. That's-

Andrew Huberman 43:34 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 43:34 ... that's kind of where my heart is. And they had a best trick event, and I thought, "Man, maybe I could get in the best trick. Is there anything new, though?" You know, and I'm still recovering from my leg. And then, at some point, I was falling asleep and I thought, "Oh, I could do that trick and come in 180. I know I could do that with, with my current state and not getting that much speed." So to explain what I was doing is, is, uh, a half cab body varial to backside blunt.

Andrew Huberman 44:01 Okay, l- we can walk through this. Half ca-

Tony Hawk 44:03 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 44:03 Uh, cab is come up backwards for a 360, right?

Tony Hawk 44:06 Coming up backwards.

Andrew Huberman 44:06 So half of that would go 180, right?

Tony Hawk 44:08 And then as I, as I approach the top of the ramp-

Andrew Huberman 44:10 Yep.

Tony Hawk 44:10 ... I body varial. That means I jump around, and then I jump around on my board, and then I make sure that it lands with my two trucks out and my tail on the coping, which is very precarious. And I've done that and come in fakie before.

Andrew Huberman 44:24 That's the blunt piece.

Tony Hawk 44:25 That's the blunt.

Andrew Huberman 44:26 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 44:26 So I've done that where I, where y- And then you have to, you have to use your feet to lift up the board and come in fakie, right? I've done that a- I've done that twice, and I thought, "Well, I wonder if there's something I could do like that." And then I realized that if I just keep coming around and I come in backside direction, that keeps my body spinning, and that might actually be easier. It wasn't, but I figured it out.

Andrew Huberman 44:51 I think I saw a clip of this on Instagram.

Tony Hawk 44:52 I did it, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 44:53 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 44:53 I mean, I did it, I did it at X Games, and that was, like, that was my last run. That was, it was... I mean, it didn't move the needle. I got seventh place, but for me, it was a huge moment.

Andrew Huberman 45:02 It felt amazing, I bet.

Tony Hawk 45:04 Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, and it w- I was, I mean, it was, like, weeks of preparation and, and trying to figure this thing out. I made it twice before the event, um, on my own, alone, on my ramp. But, um, that's just an example of, of s- you know, I was, I was literally falling asleep and then, all of a sudden, I was like, "Half cab body varial backside blunt."

Andrew Huberman 45:26 I love it. That liminal state between wakefulness and sleep is such a beautiful state that, if one is open to ideas sh- showing up there-

Tony Hawk 45:35 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 45:35 ... they almost always do.

Tony Hawk 45:36 I, I tried, started trying it the next morning. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 45:39 Do you ever find that when you're taking walks or in the shower or not thinking about skateboarding that-

Tony Hawk 45:45 Yeah. It's usually in the, in the sort of mundane moments that, that I get inspiration, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 45:50 Mm-hmm. Do you have practices for pure relaxation, aside from socialization?

Tony Hawk 45:56 I don't... I, I was never... I think that's something I've been lacking. I, I never was good at warming up, stretching, post warmup, um, or, or, or relaxing, r- you know, meditation, nothing. I just, I, I go skate, and it's on, um, and as I've gotten older, I realize that's not the best technique, but it's worked so far. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 46:24 It has worked. Um, so for you, it's go, hopefully a little bit of warmup if you-

Tony Hawk 46:28 I have more of, of a sort of OCD warmup run that I use to gauge how I'm feeling, but I kind of have to get through that.

Andrew Huberman 46:37 Mm-hmm. Like a surgeon. When a surgeon's about to do a surgery, um, they don't warm up. They just check off the various boxes of, you know-

Tony Hawk 46:45 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 46:45 ... this is here, that's there, make sure that they're comfortable in their environment, and then they do, they do the l- the life-saving work. Yeah.

Tony Hawk 46:52 Yeah, my, I, I'd say that my warmup run is, is kind of basic tricks, but they give me a sense of how, how stiff or how I, what I need to adjust for, for the rest of the day. So I guess it's not so OCD, but it, but I definitely feel like I gotta go through that routine.

Andrew Huberman 47:07 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:09 What feels the best? Like, I, I know that making a new trick feels incredible, especially if you've been at it a long time. Dialing it in so that you can do it again and again is its own form of reward.

Tony Hawk 47:21 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 47:21 Um, but what i- is the maybe list of two or three things that just feels so good?

Tony Hawk 47:27 Well, th- that, for sure, learning new tricks, not even that, that it's something that I created, but just doing something that I've never done before. When I first learned varials, backside varials, no one had done backside varials before. They'd only done them front side. Um, and a varial is where you, you reach down, grab your board, jump in the air, and then turn it 180 under your feet. It's- it's like a shuvit, but you're guiding it with your hand. I learned that halfway up the pool, the f- the main pool in Oa- at Oasis, with no one around. And the feeling I got when I rode away was something that I had never experienced, and (laughs) it is, it is literally the buzz that I've been chasing ever since, because it was like, "I created something."

Andrew Huberman 48:10 Varials below coping was the, was the button.

Tony Hawk 48:13 That was it. It really was. And, and if you saw a video of it, you'd be like, "That thing?" Like, what can I say? It was, it was the first time that I thought, uh, I thought of it. Um, I, I went through all the motions of it. I did the work, and I figured it out. And, you know, no one, no one cared, but at some point, I was able to do it.... six feet in the air and do a full 360 varial. And so that was the building block. But, but that feeling was like no other. Um, I'd say that, and then just even to, to strip everything else away, like the most basic tricks, like a backside ollie is, is an, a no-handed aerial. That used to be w- what it was called, backside no-handed aerial. It feels so good because even to this day, people at, people say, "How does the board stay on your feet?" And I can't even tell you how the board stays on my feet. I just know, I know how to maneuver it, and I know how to keep the pressure on it and the friction going. And backside ollies is like, uh, I think it's like a marvel of physics. And, and a clean backside ollie, to me, is, feels as good as anything.

Andrew Huberman 49:24 Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to behold. I confess, I've never done a legitimate backside ollie on vert.

Tony Hawk 49:28 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 49:28 On a mini ramp, sure, but not on vert. So I can't relate to the feeling, but I love, love, love the fact that you brought us back to that early varial below coping feeling, and that that marks the essence of what feels so good when you do something else, right?

Tony Hawk 49:47 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 49:47 It's sort of like a, it's a, uh, as a neuroscientist-

Tony Hawk 49:49 It is, it is the same feeling.

Andrew Huberman 49:50 ... I see it as a chemical stamp.

Tony Hawk 49:51 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 49:51 It's like a chemical fingerprint of progress.

Tony Hawk 49:54 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 49:54 Right? Um, and I'm also delighted to hear that it still feels that good to do these things. 'Cause I don't think anyone can have the kind of lifelong progression that you've had, and it's still going, uh, without a, not just love of the thing, but love of the feeling that it brings when no one's around. 'Cause you said skating your ramp by yourself, so how often are you on your ramp with, you know, no one's filming for Instagram, no, nothing for a video, nothing for a video game, none of that. Maybe there's, you know, maybe other guys are around, gals around. We'll talk about gals too, 'cause one of the big shifts in skateboarding since I started is that there's some amazing female skateboarders now.

Tony Hawk 50:32 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 50:32 Um, there's a young lady, in fact, that's been skateboarding at your ramp. Forgive me, I can't remember her name. Is it-

Tony Hawk 50:37 Reese.

Andrew Huberman 50:38 ... Reese?

Tony Hawk 50:38 Reese Nelson. She's the future.

Andrew Huberman 50:40 Goodness, goodness gracious.

Tony Hawk 50:42 Yeah. I know.

Andrew Huberman 50:42 She is so-

Tony Hawk 50:44 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 50:44 ... good.

Tony Hawk 50:45 So good.

Andrew Huberman 50:45 So good. Uh, so we'll get back to that. But I think that, you know, people starting any kind of sport or academic career or business or anything, I think people assume that you go from zero to 100 somehow, and that there are these people that are just selected by genetics or by luck or by some combination of things to just, like, get it and be better than everybody else. But it's clear that you spent a lot of time alone driving some place to skate the next day, or alone at the ramp.

Tony Hawk 51:14 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 51:14 Or, um...

Andrew Huberman 51:15 So do you ever reflect on that kind of drive, um, and you know, what, what, what that's all about? Or is it just so intrinsic to who you are?

Tony Hawk 51:24 It's more innate. I don't, I don't think about it. I just know I have to do it. Uh, it's like, I mean, I, uh, we can get into it with my injury, but, um, uh, but, but to go back to what you're saying, is you're saying that, that people think that, "Oh, you were chosen for this," or genetics or whatever. If you saw me skate-

Andrew Huberman 51:41 Your last name's Hawk after all.

Tony Hawk 51:42 Like, if you saw me skate-

Andrew Huberman 51:44 No, I'm just kidding.

Tony Hawk 51:44 ... when I first started skating, there was no way you'd think that I was natural or that I had any future in it. I was all gangly. I was all over the place. I was eating shit left and right. Like, it just, it, it wasn't, I wasn't good. I wasn't. I wasn't a natural. Um, I've seen people that are naturals.

Andrew Huberman 52:01 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 52:01 And I've seen that, how they don't have that drive. They don't have the discipline. And it's not wasted, but it, they just don't, they don't utilize, they don't take advantage of, of what they have, uh, uh, naturally. And, and for whatever reason. I don't, I don't fault anyone for it. Um, but I've seen both sides of it, and I've also seen other skaters who are just driven and who are not really good, kinda sloppy, and become the best. Andrew Reynolds.

Andrew Huberman 52:31 Oh, yeah.

Tony Hawk 52:31 When we put him on our team, he was just like me, super gangly. His board's bouncing around, but he's trying every single trick. And every time he sent me a video, it's some new technique that he's figured out. And he didn't really ha- by the untrained eye, he didn't have the skill set for. And then he became the boss. You know what I mean? So uh, I think it's just you, you have to, you have to give that as much weight as natural talent, if not more. I'd say more.

Andrew Huberman 53:03 Yeah. I would, I would certainly say more for science, and you know, the people who are in the lab late at night and early in the morning and drilling away, not, uh, not always the smartest. Certainly not the, um, dumbest, but smart enough to show up when other people are leaving and continue.

Tony Hawk 53:20 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 53:20 And I think there has to be a little bit of friction internally.

Tony Hawk 53:23 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 53:23 I mean, you know?

Tony Hawk 53:24 Uh, yes.

Andrew Huberman 53:24 Maybe, may- maybe externally also, but-

Tony Hawk 53:26 Well-

Andrew Huberman 53:26 ... just some friction. Some-

Tony Hawk 53:27 I, I-

Andrew Huberman 53:28 ... I'm gonna show you.

Tony Hawk 53:29 Yeah. Yes.

Andrew Huberman 53:29 You know?

Tony Hawk 53:30 Okay, I, uh, my best example of that, and I haven't talked about this yet, um, 'cause I did it privately, but I, I broke my leg doing a McTwist, something that I've done thousands of times in my-

Andrew Huberman 53:44 540.

Tony Hawk 53:45 540, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 53:46 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 53:46 So it's a, it's a one and a half spin in the backside direction. But that particular grab that you do makes it a McTwist because it makes you kind of flip upside down. So it's kind of a one and a half somersault. I, it's not my trick. It's Mike McGill's trick. I learned it not long after he created it in 1984. Been doing it ever since. I mean, I'm talking about 40 years of McTwists, right? I've gotten hurt once or twice, but not bad. Anyway, I fucked around and found out, did one with no speed last year, thinking I could do it like I was still 20, and got tangled up and, and broke my femur. I had a super long recovery. I had a false start. I had a nonunion fracture, which means my bone never connected back to itself and it kept be- pushing itself further away. Um...And that's all, uh, in the past. I, I got a second surgery in November, and all along in the back of my head is, "I gotta get back to 540s. I have to." And I can't explain why I have to. I hate that it means that much to me, but it, it's in here. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not a sense of pride. It's not like I have to prove this to anyone. I just have to do it. And last week, I did it. It was so scary. And I prepped for it. I, I mean, e- even down to, like, my diet and I, I stopped drinking altogether and I was like, every time I go to the ramp, I'm just trying 540s, like, to get the spin, to get the, to get the landing zone, with no intention of making it. Just that I had to get there, and then I had to have this heart to heart with my wife that, you know, she doesn't want to see me get hurt. She doesn't want to see me risking myself at this age anymore. She doesn't wanna live through another traumatic injury with me. And I had to tell her, like, "I have to do this." She was gracious and accepting and that's all I could ask for. It wasn't like she was like, "Yeah, you gotta go do it." It was like, "Okay. That's who you are." And so she was there. She was my only spectator (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 55:59 So good.

Tony Hawk 56:00 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 56:00 I confess I've s- seen a video of this and my first response was, um, "F yes." Uh, and my second response was, "That was really high." Like, this is no, you know, just above coping 540.

Tony Hawk 56:14 Well, because I'm not-

Andrew Huberman 56:14 This isn't even, you know, this is a head high 540.

Tony Hawk 56:17 I'm not gonna make the same mistake I did last time where I tried it low thinking I could just get away with it anymore. So the going high was more of a safety measure.

Andrew Huberman 56:25 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 56:26 Which is ironic. The, the, the bigger the ramps for me, the safer it is, because I have a better landing zone. I have more time in the air to adjust and even though it looks spectacular and, "He's six feet in the air," it's just like, "No, I need that." I can't skate some eight foot pool. I have no landing zone. I'm too tall. I'm too... I move too slowly now to do that kind of stuff. So that's why you don't see me, like, in the park (laughs) events.

Andrew Huberman 56:51 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 56:51 Stuff like that. You know, you're gonna see me on this 14 foot vert ramp because that's my happy place and that's where I'm safe. Um, but also having my wife there, I just knew I wasn't gonna get hurt in front of her, 'cause I would have been in such trouble.

Andrew Huberman 57:05 (laughs)

Tony Hawk 57:07 The, the emotional support and pressure is, uh-

Andrew Huberman 57:10 Yeah.

Tony Hawk 57:10 ... is a real thing. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:12 And in the best ways. Uh, not to focus on the bad aspects of the injury, uh, because-

Tony Hawk 57:18 There are plenty.

Andrew Huberman 57:19 Yeah, that I recall you and I communicated not long after the, let's say, let's call it what it was, the first break.

Tony Hawk 57:26 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:26 And I remember you said to me over text, you said, "How long before I'm skateboarding again?"

Tony Hawk 57:31 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:31 And I said, um, "Skateboarding as in pushing or skateboarding-"

Tony Hawk 57:34 Yeah (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 57:35 "... as in, um, what you do on vert," you know? And you said, uh, "What I do on vert." And I said, "Well, it seems you are doing a lot of things." You were doing deliberate cold, deliberate heat, pressure, you're doing a number of things. I mean, you're not haphazard about your career and your body and your health and we'll get into that a little bit later, some of the things that you've enjoyed, uh, as beneficial for you. But, um, you said, "I'm calling it at two months," and I said, "Okay, um, I believe it." And then I recall that you, was it the Oscars or some other award event where you came out about a week later? You came out there, uh, you walked out-

Tony Hawk 58:10 Uh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 58:10 ... this broken femur, and you weren't using any support to walk out.

Tony Hawk 58:14 Right.

Andrew Huberman 58:14 So you clearly ditched whatever support you might have been using, uh, which I think is awesome, by the way. Um, and then-

Tony Hawk 58:21 Yeah, it was.

Andrew Huberman 58:21 ... pretty soon I was seeing videos of you dropping in.

Tony Hawk 58:23 Right.

Andrew Huberman 58:23 I'm seeing videos of you doing kick turns below coping. I'm seeing videos of you at coping and, you know, we have a friend in common, a skate- skateboarder and generally photographer, Mike Blaback, and I remember texting Mike, I was like, "Tony's back already. This is, this is super human rates of healing." And I think it is super human rates of healing. Then you mentioned that

Andrew Huberman 58:46 you damaged, broke, broke the femur again. So did you allow more rest the second time? What was driving you to-

Tony Hawk 58:52 Yeah, well-

Andrew Huberman 58:52 ... to get back in it so quickly?

Tony Hawk 58:54 ... so the first, the first go around, I just didn't listen to any of the professional advice because I thought, "Well, I've done... I've come this far and I've always been able to push through broken pelvis, broken elbow, um, knee surgeries." And I've always been... The timeline's always very shortened for me because I just get back out there and I, and I get the healing started. But I also am comfortable with what people think is extremely risky. But in this instance, I wanted to get back out there right away. And not long after the Academy Awards, uh, I was actually walking with a cane at that time, and I ditched the cane just to walk out on stage to present the awards. That was my big... my big coming out moment, but it was kind of forced. And as soon as I walked off the stage, I grabbed my cane and I was hobbling in the backstage. Um, but I was... I was skating kind of a mini ramp and, and I was already struggling because I couldn't put my weight on my front foot because my bone still had not connected to itself. So there's a gap in the bone, but there's a... there's a nail, what they call a nail or, you know, a big piece of metal that's holding them in place. But I didn't realize how careful I needed to be with that because it was so precarious, and I decided, "I'm gonna drop in on the mini ramp. Like, I think I'm ready." And, and it wasn't the drop in on the mini ramp, it was me getting to the top of the mini ramp and stepping off my board.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:18 It's always that kind of stuff.

Tony Hawk 1:00:20 And, but, but I just stepped off my board like I would do any other day, but I didn't think I led with my front foot and I felt the bone move in that moment. I, I really f- I felt it... I felt it either twist or get out of place and I was in total denial for months 'cause I just said, "Oh, it just... it just hurts now." Like I, you know, I, "I got this minor setback."And then I finally, eight months into my recovery, seven months into my recovery, I was always in pain. My skating wasn't progressing, I couldn't get speed, and by all measures, I should be back. At least I'd be back to a level that I feel good about, and I went and got x-rays and they said, "Your bone never connected. You have a non-union fracture." And, and, and every time I skated, so my bone's like this, every time I skated, I was pushing it further away, and so my bone was like this on the last x-ray and, and that was the hard truth.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:22 So for those listening, it's l- just laterally displaced. Think about a pipe that's broken in the middle and just one's offset to the other.

Tony Hawk 1:01:28 And, and as I keep skating, and I, I could force my skate, like I kinda learned this hack where I can put 75% of my weight on my back foot and 25% on my front foot and do what I wanted to do, but it wasn't where I thought I'd be and it just hurt all the time. I mean, it really was like, that was my trigger 'cause I, I have a pretty high tolerance to pain and it was always hurt. Like I, I would dread going to the airport knowing I had to walk to a gate, so I knew something was wrong there. I went to a specialist, um, that deals in non-union fractures and he had a very pragmatic factual approach and it was like, "Oh, I would do this. I'm gonna take that nail out. I'm gonna take the other hardware out and put it together and you cannot move for two months."

Andrew Huberman 1:02:17 Did you obey that order?

Tony Hawk 1:02:18 I did.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:18 Really?

Tony Hawk 1:02:19 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:20 So what, what has-

Tony Hawk 1:02:21 I was chilling. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:02:22 (laughs)

Tony Hawk 1:02:22 I was not gonna risk that again.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:24 Did you, um, and do you prioritize things like sleep, um, nutrition, um, just, you know, generally and did you emphasize those things while you were recovering from the injury?

Tony Hawk 1:02:37 Yeah. I, I, I was very disciplined in my diet, in my schedule, in my sleep. Um, surprisingly, I, I was very busy because, um, I do speaking engagements and suddenly my speaking engagements were getting booked left and right. I mean, to the point where I, I did a tour through Europe last summer of speaking engagements, so that was sorta, that was a silver lining, I guess, to my, my idle time, um, and I leaned into it. You know, I made myself available and, and, uh, it, you know, it's good money and it, it was, it's fun to, to interact and, um, but all through, all through that, of course, the, in the back of my head I was like, "When? When can I skate? When can I skate?" And then when I finally started skating, it was night and day with my leg. I felt like I could lean forward. Suddenly I was learning tricks every s- every session, relearning tricks, um, so I just, I'm just lucky that I got to live (laughs) in this time of modern medicine.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:41 Was that two months the longest you've ever gone without skateboarding vert?

Tony Hawk 1:03:44 Yeah. Yeah. Without skating at all.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:48 Not even just pushing around?

Tony Hawk 1:03:50 No.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:50 Yeah, good for you for obeying doctor's orders and also-

Tony Hawk 1:03:53 Yeah, finally.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:54 (laughs) ... g- and also good for you for deciding that your rate of recovery is gonna be whatever it is for you because I feel like I'm hearing both things. On the one hand, you listen to the medical professionals. On the other hand, I'm not hearing, "Oh, you know, I looked at the average rate of recovery from this kind of fracture, this and that." It's, it's like, it, it's as if you decided two things at once, that there are experts who have something to offer me here. I'll follow their advice-

Tony Hawk 1:04:18 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:18 ... and yet I'm the expert at myself. Here, I'm putting myself in your first person. Uh, Tony's the expert in Tony, and I'm gonna make sure that I come back 100%.

Tony Hawk 1:04:29 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:29 Or better.

Tony Hawk 1:04:30 Yeah, not better, but, um, and I've, and I have come to terms with that because I know that I'm not going to be pushing myself the way that I did before I got hurt anymore. There are some tricks now that are way more difficult just because whatever, it's something changed in my body and, for instance, I can't grab shlob. Like, I can't, I, I can't do it consistently. That used to be my go-to grab. Could do that any time over 60 foot gaps, whatever. Like, I could ju- I just grab, I knew where my board was. I knew that was gonna hold onto my feet and half the time I try to grab that way now, I don't reach it or I grab-

Andrew Huberman 1:05:05 Ah.

Tony Hawk 1:05:06 ... my foot instead and I, I don't know, I can't make the adjustment to fix it. And so I've just sort of come to terms with, well, that's not the go-to grab anymore and that's okay.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:19 Your kit's-

Tony Hawk 1:05:19 I had a good run. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:05:21 Yeah. Your, your kit's pretty, pretty, uh, vast, so there's a lot of other things to reach to. Aside from the 540 which, by the way, congratulations.

Tony Hawk 1:05:28 Thank you.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:28 Not only is it a 540 but, uh, done at least head high, I've seen it with my own eyes.

Tony Hawk 1:05:34 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:05:34 And, um, and under really great circumstances. Your wife there, just the two of you and after, and the trick that broke the femur in the first place.

Tony Hawk 1:05:43 Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:43 So, um, congratulations on that.

Tony Hawk 1:05:45 Thank you.

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Andrew Huberman 1:06:52 off. Are there other things that you...... you're thinking, you know, "Can't wait to get back to that." Um, let's set aside slob airs for now. Yeah.

Tony Hawk 1:07:00 Um, yeah, I- I- I want to get my hand plants back the way I used to do 'em.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:06 Inverts.

Tony Hawk 1:07:06 I have, yeah, yeah, so invert, like the one-handed handstand. Um, I can do them now but I-

Andrew Huberman 1:07:12 I've seen you doing them recently.

Tony Hawk 1:07:13 Yeah, but I- but I used... They used to be my signature was a tuck in invert and flop all the way back and, and I can't get ahold of my board to pull it all the way back like I used to. Um, if I can get that, I'll feel like that's it. That's- that's- that was the last milestone.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:31 I feel... I'm not here to, uh, diagnose and, and treat these, uh, specific, uh, skateboard trickisms, but, uh, between your... what you said about the slob air and what you're saying about this-

Tony Hawk 1:07:40 Well, same grab.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:40 ... it seems like there's something about-

Tony Hawk 1:07:42 Same grab.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:42 ... about getting your, your, your-

Tony Hawk 1:07:44 My-

Andrew Huberman 1:07:44 ... front hand around-

Tony Hawk 1:07:45 Yes, around my knee, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:46 ... and just kind of pulling it back, back in-

Tony Hawk 1:07:47 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:48 ... uh, behind you.

Tony Hawk 1:07:49 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:49 So maybe this is, like, the way that the femur's lining up with your pelvis and maybe some off-ramp something or other physical therapy could do it.

Tony Hawk 1:07:55 I- I- I'm actually working with, um, Bez Korr. He is a, he is the doctor of physical therapy and he has helped me immensely through my recovery. And when I'm frustrated with this motion or... That's the same grab, actually, as the McTwist. He worked on me before it and was just contorting my body and my leg into these positions that I don't really even get to when I'm skating, just to prepare me for that. And he did. But that's what it took.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:28 It's interesting that we're, um, talking about skateboarding and we're also talking about physical therapists, we're talking about nutrition, we're talking about sleep.

Tony Hawk 1:08:35 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:35 So growing up as-

Tony Hawk 1:08:36 You- you kidding? Like, nah, none of that. None of that.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:38 Never imagined any of this?

Tony Hawk 1:08:39 Never. Never.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:39 And- and I'm chuckling because, you know, growing up in skateboarding, um, early on, uh, for me, uh, not quite as early as you but pretty early, 12, um, and got out of it and fricking back in... Yes, I can still do a thing or two, uh, here and there. Um, but that's not the point. The point is that, you know, the nutrition consisted largely of, you know, fast food or whatever was around. Cigarettes and beer were sort of the, the energy drinks and, uh, (laughs) uh, and, um, supplements of, of the times. This is fortunately changed. But there, there was essentially no health-promoting tools or aspects to it at all.

Tony Hawk 1:09:16 But th-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:16 But that was back then. But then over time, it seems it's evolved. Like, now I see, um... I saw a couple of posts from Stevie Williams, like he's in the gym.

Tony Hawk 1:09:24 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:24 Um, I think I saw Danny Way early on working with Paul Chek and doing some balance work, neck work, 'cause he had broken his neck surfing.

Tony Hawk 1:09:32 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:32 And things of that sort. So there seems to have been a big shift over the last 15, 20 years where skateboarders are taking good care of their bodies, like other athletes, thinking about the resilience of their bodies, and also generally taking better care. Like, a lot of them opt not to drink and do drugs and all those sorts of things. So, I mean, how does it strike you to see the way that skateboarding's evolved towards the option to be much healthier and treat it like a, like a serious sport where you're a serious athlete? A word that, y- you know, even 15 years ago, 20 years ago, if you called a skateboarder an athlete, some people might even be offended by that.

Tony Hawk 1:10:06 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:06 People in skateboarding, right?

Tony Hawk 1:10:07 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Um, well, to answer your question, in the early days, that was part of the, the scene and the culture just 'cause the- the... it was the antithesis to organized team sports and mainstream culture. And so it was just like, "Yeah, this is what we do. Fuck it, who cares?" Like, "We drink and we skate and we..." And everyone... It was, it was Wild West, right? But as... I never fell into that deeply because I saw how it affected people's performances. And the skating itself was paramount to me. That is what I wanted to focus on. That's what I wanted to be good at. And I saw people partying and partying their skills away. So I had at least that forethought. Um, and then as skating got more established, popular, m- more of a career option, then people started taking it more seriously, especially competitors. I mean... And, and... But there's such a wide swath of, of what skateboarding is and it's a big tent. So to say that it's more organized, yes, it's more organized over here. There's still all these skaters over here partying, hopping fences, don't care about contests, don't want sponsors.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:21 Oh, well, like GX 1000, like those kids at Bomb Hills in San Francisco.

Tony Hawk 1:11:25 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:25 Like th- like...

Tony Hawk 1:11:25 But- but that-

Andrew Huberman 1:11:26 That's- that's wild, yeah.

Tony Hawk 1:11:26 That's what I love about it, is, is the diversity of it all.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:29 Mm-hmm.

Tony Hawk 1:11:29 And that that's... We're all part of this scene. So I- I was a competitor. That was, that was my path to success. And so I appreciate that people take it more seriously now and that they do have trainer... They have resources. I mean, they have sponsors that will pay for this kind of stuff. (laughs) There was no such thing. I mean, we... Like, at, at our biggest skate contest, we were all staying at Stacy Peralta's parent's house the night before and he would take us out to get spaghetti because he thought carbohydrates was going to give us energy the next day. That was the extent of training in 1983. Right? But nowadays, it... We're treated like high elite athletes because they are. Like, if you really look at people who, that are at the top of their field, people like Nyjah Huston. You know what I mean? Like, the dude is a machine. He is, he is one of the most precise skaters that we've ever seen, or precise athletes, this side of Nadia Comaneci. You know? Yes, I'm (laughs) I'm- I'm a- I'm aging myself. But what I'm saying is, like, this is, this is... takes hardcore dedication, precision, athleticism, and devotion. And so now they have the resources to back that up and to keep it going longer. I mean, yeah, I... Would I be able to do this now, especially after getting hurt without the help of a doctor of physical training? Probably not.... I'd do it on some level, but I wouldn't get to where I am now. Um, and so, hey, I think it's awesome. I, I, you know, I, I never, I never wanted to covet skateboarding as this thing that no one else could... like a gatekeeper to it, no one else can touch it. I always thought there was something to skateboarding that was magical and that was good for mental health and that was, that was... required such, um, required such passion. And I didn't, I never understood why it didn't get bigger through those, those lean years. It was always like kids... this speaks to kids. Like it's, it's daredevil, and it's active, and it's exciting, and you can do it as a group, but you can do it your own way, and I don't know, all those things. It took a long time for everyone else to figure it out. They definitely figured it out. I mean, nowadays, skaters are the cool kids in school.

Andrew Huberman 1:13:55 Yeah, it's in the Olympics.

Tony Hawk 1:13:56 Like-

Andrew Huberman 1:13:57 There was always discussion, would it be... was an exhibition sport in the Olympics at one point?

Tony Hawk 1:14:00 No.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:00 Uh, no?

Tony Hawk 1:14:01 No.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:01 Oh, I thought it was at first. Maybe it had a run at potentially being an exhibition sport?

Tony Hawk 1:14:05 There were tu- there was talk of that.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:06 Got it, got it.

Tony Hawk 1:14:08 Um, but it, it never did and, and not that... I mean, at some point, especially in the late '90s, early 2000s, skating s- was getting appreciated and, and kind of reached that threshold of, of is it mainstream? Well, it's in, it's on McDonald's commercials, so I guess that's pretty mainstream. And so we already had come of age and it was like, we don't need the Olympics. We're already more popular than a lot of Olympic sports (laughs) , right? So why do we need their validation? And then at some point it became like the, the, the power dynamic shifted and it was like, oh, they need our cool factor. We don't need their validation. And it was like, yeah, okay, you guys want it? Sure. Go ahead. W- hold the events, hold the qualifiers. We'll participate, but we don't need this.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:03 Well, you've been an amazing ambassador for the sport that's driven so much of that wider acceptance and progression and invitation into different domains. One of the, um, things that I definitely wanna talk about is the video game, right? Because I think that the video game changed a lot of things for the general public in terms of their perception of skateboarding. I mean, what it allowed, of course,