How to Exercise for Strength Gains & Hormone Optimization | Dr. Duncan French

1. 0:00 – 2:27

   Dr. Duncan French

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Duncan French as my guest on the Huberman Lab Podcast. Dr. French is the vice president of performance at the UFC Performance Institute, and he has over 20 years of experience working with elite professional and Olympic athletes. Prior to joining the UFC, French was the director of performance science at the University of Notre Dame, and he has many, many quality peer-reviewed studies to his name, exploring, for instance, how the particular order of exercise, whether or not one performs endurance exercise prior to resistance training or vice versa, how that impacts performance of various movements and endurance training protocols, as well as the impact on hormones such as testosterone, estrogen, and some of the stress hormones such as cortisol. He's also done fascinating work exploring how neurotransmitters, things like dopamine and epinephrine, also called adrenaline, can impact hormones and how hormones can impact neurotransmitter release. What's particularly unique about Dr. French's work is that he's figured out specific training protocols that can maximize, for instance, testosterone output or reduce stress hormone output in order to maximize the effects of training in the short-term and in the long-term. So today, you're going to learn a lot of protocols. Whether or not you're into resistance training or endurance training, you will learn, for instance, how to regulate the duration of your training and the type of training that you do in order to get the maximum benefit from that training over time. So whether or not you are somebody who just exercises recreationally for your health, whether or not you're an amateur or professional athlete, or whether or not you're just trying to maximize your health through the use of endurance and/or resistance training, today's discussion will have a wealth of takeaways for you. There are only a handful of people working at the intersection of elite performance, mechanistic science, and that can do so in a way that leads to direct, immediately applicable protocols that anybody can benefit from. Dr. French also provides some incredibly important insights about the direction that sport and exercise are taking in the world today, and their applications towards performance and health.

2. 2:27 – 5:44

   Roka, Helix Sleep, Headspace

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:27

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is ROKA. ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality. I've spent my career working on the visual system, and I can tell you that everything about the way that ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were designed was with performance in mind. First of all, they're extremely lightweight, so you actually forget that you're wearing them most of the time. Second of all, even if you get sweaty, if you're running or biking or it's a hot day, you're running around, just happen to be perspiring quite a lot, they don't slip off your face, which is terrific. They also have a great aesthetic, and they have a lot of different styles to choose from. The clarity of the lenses is superb. I don't think there's a match for the clarity of ROKA glasses out there, and if there is, I'm not aware of it. They are absolutely crystal clear, and that's true in any environment. Whether or not you're working in a dim environment or a bright environment, the clarity is unmatched. If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses or sunglasses, you can go to roka.com, that's R-O-K-A .com, and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are uniquely tailored to your sleep needs. All of us have unique sleep needs and we should be sleeping on a mattress that's ideal for us. If you go to the Helix site, they have a quick two-minute quiz, asks you a number of questions about whether or not you sleep on your side, your back, your stomach, do you tend to run hot or cold, et cetera. Maybe you don't have the answers to those questions, which is fine. They'll match you to the mattress that's ideal for your sleep needs. I took that quiz, and about 10 months ago, I started sleeping on the Dusk Helix mattress. That's D-U-S-K. That's the mattress that's ideal for me, and I'm sleeping better than I ever have before. So if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take their two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress, and you'll get up to $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows. That's helixsleep.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Headspace. Headspace is a meditation app that's backed by 25 published studies. By now, I think most people have heard about or experienced the benefits of meditation, improved focus, better sleep, reduced stress, more creativity and insight. There's just so many studies out there that support those claims. The challenge, however, is sticking to a meditation practice, and over the years, I confess there have been times when I've meditated regularly and then I stop meditating, even though it always provides benefits for me the first time I do it and every time I do it. With the Headspace app, it makes it very easy to meditate consistently because they have different types of meditations to select from, and they come in different durations. So sometimes I only have three or four minutes to meditate, they have those sorts of meditations. They also have longer meditations of 20 minutes or more. If you want to try Headspace, you can go to headspace.com/specialoffer, and if you do that, you'll get a free one-month trial with Headspace's full library of meditations that you can use in any situation. This is the best deal offered by Headspace right now. So again, if you're interested, go to headspace.com/specialoffer. And now my conversation with

3. 5:44 – 11:45

   Duncan’s Background in Exercise Science

   1. AHAndrew Huberman5:44

      Dr. Duncan French. Duncan French, great to see you again.

   2. DFDr. Duncan French5:48

      Likewise, likewise. Thank you. I don't often have many, uh, Stanford professors in the Performance Institute, so I'm, I'm, I'm really excited.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman5:54

      Oh, well, this place is amazing, and, um, you have a huge, uh, role in making it what it is. The reason I'm so excited to talk with you is that...Yeah, you're one of these rare beasts that you have been involved in human performance and athletic performance at the collegiate level. Uh, you are obviously very involved in MMA now and the UFC Performance Institute, and you also, uh, had the fortunate experience, I like to think, of doing a PhD in, um, what exactly was the PhD in? Or what was...

   4. DFDr. Duncan French6:26

      It was exercise physiology.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman6:28

      Exercise physiology.

   6. DFDr. Duncan French6:28

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman6:28

      So, you're familiar also with designing studies, control groups, all the sorts of things that, in my opinion anyway, are kind of lacking from the internet, uh, social media version of, uh, exercise science, which is that people throw out all sorts of ideas about how people should be training, what they should be doing and eating and not eating and doing. And certainly, science doesn't have all the answers, but I just think it's so rare to find somebody that's at the convergence...

   8. DFDr. Duncan French6:54

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman6:54

      ...of all those different fields. And, uh, so I have a lot of questions for you today that I'm, I'm sure the audience are going to be really interested in as well.

   10. DFDr. Duncan French7:02

       Listen, I mean, I, I appreciate that. It's very humbling and, um, yeah, I've worked hard to get to where I am. Um, but I've always tried to be authentic and I think authenticity comes alongside, you know, a- academic rigor and, and objectivity and insight and, and, and knowledge base, right? At the end of the day, it's about, um, having confidence, having expertise, and being able to deliver that expertise to, to, in my world, to athletes. Um, and I think, uh, that's what I've always tried to do. I've tried to have many strings to my bow, um, so that I can talk with many different hats on, you know? Uh, one day I'm talking to a coach, the next day I'm talking to an athlete, the next day I'm talking to a CEO, the next day I'm talking to a, you know, a- an academic professor, and then, you know... So, I think, you know, being able to wear those different hats is certainly a skillset that I've tried to, um, to build throughout my career. And, you know, like I said, I've been blessed to work with, uh, I think it was 36 different professional Olympic sports last time I've co- I, I counted.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman7:56

       Amazing.

   12. DFDr. Duncan French7:56

       So, um, yeah, it's been, it's been a wild ride. It's been great.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman7:59

       All right. Which of those sports was the most unusual?

   14. DFDr. Duncan French8:02

       Um, I've worked with crown green bowling.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman8:05

       (laughs)

   16. DFDr. Duncan French8:05

       Uh, which, I don't know, as an American guy, I don't know, you know, how well you know that.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman8:08

       (laughs) I've never heard of it.

   18. DFDr. Duncan French8:09

       But basically, imagine a, um, you know, a, a 20-foot by 20-foot sq- square of turf, um, with a, a small raise in the middle, i.e. the crown. So, it's, it, it slopes to the edges.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman8:21

       Okay.

   20. DFDr. Duncan French8:21

       Um, and then, you know, you use, you, you, you throw out a white jack, a smaller ball, and then you, you sm- roll out larger balls to, to try and get closest to the jack. It's, uh, it's a very, uh, European thing, let's say (laughs) .

   21. AHAndrew Huberman8:33

       Interesting.

   22. DFDr. Duncan French8:33

       But yeah, sports performance at crown green bowling. There you go (laughs) .

   23. AHAndrew Huberman8:36

       All right. Um, wow. And then to, uh, mixed martial arts fighters-

   24. DFDr. Duncan French8:40

       Absolutely. There you go.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman8:41

       ...and, and, and everything in between. So, um, along those lines, uh, could you give us a little bit about your background? You know, where'd you start out? Where are you from originally?

   26. DFDr. Duncan French8:49

       Yeah. I'm from the northeast of England. Um, so I'm from a, a town called Harrogate, which is in, in Yorkshire, which is a northern kind of area of, of the UK.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman8:56

       Nice sunny weather all year long.

   28. DFDr. Duncan French8:58

       (laughs) Yeah, if you can imagine. Yeah, with the, the two weeks of summer that we get, you know? (laughs) Um, but yeah, I mean, I did my, uh, my undergraduate studies there in sport science. I, you know, I did teacher training to be a physical education teacher after that. Like most people, I then, you know, worked as a high school physical education teacher, you know, great experience working with kids, you know, developing, um, you know, athletic qualities, but something in the back of my mind always, you know, I wanted more. I wanted to be, uh, you know, to be at a higher end of elite sport, you know? I'd- I was a failed athlete like m- many people. I, I represented my country in, in different sports and things, but I never made it professionally. Um, so, you know, that, that little seed was sown in as much as I then started to reach out to, um, you know, to different areas to do a PhD, whether it was in the UK or also, you know, chance my arm, took a punt, see if I could get over to the States. You know, all my buddies were going on, you know, gap years after they finish university or whatever, and, and going to Bali and hanging out or whatever, traveling through Thailand. And I figured, well, you know, I a- I've always loved the States and can I go and kill two birds with one stone and do something academic, continue my studies, um, but also do it in a different environment and get some life, life experience? And, um, many, many rejections as, as I'm sure you're kind of aware from different professors, whether it was Roger (...) or William Kramer or whatever.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman10:17

       So, you just wrote to these folks?

   30. DFDr. Duncan French10:18

       I just called, called, called, and, and, and sent out information and said, "Yeah, so, have, have you got any opportunities?" Um, pushback from them all, but you know, dogged and kept, kept re- asking. And, um, yeah, Dr. William Kramer who was at Ball State University in Indiana at the time, um, you know, a m- a muscle neuroendocrinologist and, and researcher in muscle physiology using resistance training, um, you know, he basically said, "Listen, I can guarantee you funding for the first year of your studies, but not the next three."
4. 11:45 – 16:22

   How Certain Exercises Increase Testosterone

   1. AHAndrew Huberman11:45

      weight training and hormones. You hear this all the time that doing these big heavy compound movements or resistance training increases androgens, things like testosterone, DHT, DHEA, and so forth.Does anyone know how that actually happens? Like, what about move- what about en- what is it about engaging motor neurons under heavy loads sends a signal to the endocrine system, "Hey, release testosterone." I've never actually, uh, been able to find that in a textbook.

   2. DFDr. Duncan French12:13

      Yeah, well, I mean, uh, ...

   3. AHAndrew Huberman12:14

      And how can I do more of that? (laughs)

   4. DFDr. Duncan French12:16

      (laughs) Yeah, as- as much as I know, you know, and again, I'm digging out into the annals of Duncan French's kind of brain now, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I think it's a stress response, right? It's mechanical stress and it's metabolic stress. And these are, you know, the downstream regulation of, of testosterone release at the gonads, um, comes from many different areas. Um, you know, the, the, my work primarily looked at, um, you know, catecholamines and, and sympathetic arousal and how-

   5. AHAndrew Huberman12:41

      So, things like epinephrine, adrenaline?

   6. DFDr. Duncan French12:42

      Correct. Yeah, epinephrine, adrenaline, um, you know, and noradrenaline, um, how, how they were signaling, that signaling cascade using, you know, the HPA axis, releasing, um, cortisol and then, you know, looking at how that also influenced the adrenal medulla to release, um, you know, androgens and then signaling that at the gonads.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman13:03

      That raises an interesting question. So, in, uh, presumably weight training in women, people, uh, who don't have testes w- also it increases testosterone.

   8. DFDr. Duncan French13:12

      Yes. Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman13:12

      And is that purely through the adrenals when women lift weights, their adrenal glands release testosterone?

   10. DFDr. Duncan French13:16

       Absolutely. I mean, that is the only area of, of testosterone release for females. And yes, it's the same downstream cascade. Obviously, the extent to which it happens is, is significantly less in females, but that's how you... There's good, good data out there that shows, you know, females can increase their anabolic environment, their internal anabolic milieu, um, using resistance training as a stressor, and then they get the consequent muscle tissue growth, um, you know, whether it's tendon, ligament adaptations, you know, the, the beneficial consequences of resistance training, which is driven by anabolic stimuli.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman13:48

       Yeah. I have two questions about that. The first one is something that you mentioned, which is that the, the androgens, the testosterone comes from the adrenals under resistance loads in women. Is the same true in men? I mean, we hear that the testes produce testosterone when we weight train, uh, for, for men that have testes, but, um, do, do we know whether or not it's the adrenals or the testes in men that are increasing testosterone?

   12. DFDr. Duncan French14:13

       Yeah, I think that-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman14:13

       More of both? A little bit from each?

   14. DFDr. Duncan French14:15

       There's a- there's a- the, the field is divided presently. Um, and as much as understanding the acute adren- the acute, um, adrenergic response in terms of, you know, anabolic, um, response to exercise in an acute phase and the exposure to, um, you know, a stimulus that is stress-driven, which might be partly from the adrenal glands, partly from the gonads, versus a longitudinal exposure, um, to anabolic environments, which is primarily driven by obviously the gonads and the release, the endocrine environment from, from testosterone release at the gonads. So, th- this, the field is split in terms of how exercise is promoting hypertrophy, you know, muscle tissue growth, um, and whether that is very much a, a, an adrenal, um, stimuli or if that's significant enough in these acute responses versus the longitudinal exposure, just elevated basal levels of, of anabolic tes- testosterone a- at a habitual level.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman15:10

       So, it sounds like in most ca- like with most things, it's probably both. It's probably-

   16. DFDr. Duncan French15:13

       It, it absolutely.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman15:13

       ... the adrenals and the gonads.

   18. DFDr. Duncan French15:15

       Yeah.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman15:15

       And then you mentioned that, uh, testosterone can have, um, enhancing effects, uh, growth effects on tendon and ligament also. That, you don't often hear about that. People always think, you know, testosterone, muscle. But testosterone has a lot of effects on other tissues that are important for performance, it sounds like. Um, could you-

   20. DFDr. Duncan French15:32

       Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman15:33

       Yeah. What's the story there?

   22. DFDr. Duncan French15:34

       Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, the, the testosterone hormone is... I mean, listen, there's androgen receptors on, um, neural tissue, on neural axons.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman15:42

       Pretty much everywhere.

   24. DFDr. Duncan French15:43

       Exactly.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman15:44

       Yeah.

   26. DFDr. Duncan French15:44

       So, you know, it, the binding capacity of testosterone and influence in different tissues within the body, I touched on, you know, muscle tissue, but, you know, the, the ligaments, the tendons, um, even bone to, to some extent, you know, testosterone has, has potential to influence that, um, in, in terms of removing osteopenic kind of characteristics, et cetera. So, um, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, a magic, a magic hormone, let's say, um, with many, uh, many end, end impacts in terms of adaptation.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman16:12

       I definitely want to get back to your trajectory, but as long as we're on, uh, the interactions between androgens, testosterone and its derivatives and different tissues,

5. 16:22 – 20:19

   What Kind of Training Increases Testosterone & Growth Hormone?

   1. AHAndrew Huberman16:22

      you know, from the work that you did as a PhD student and, um, and throughout your career, could you say that there's a- there are some general principles of training that favor testosterone production in terms of that, the, that somebody who's not an elite athlete could use? Somebody who's already adapted to weight training somewhat, like they know the difference between a dumbbell and a barbell and they know how, they know the various movements, they're not going to damage themselves. But once they're doing that, I mean, I've heard shorter sessions are better than longer sessions, but in rep loads with... Now, there's a lot of parameter space, but if you were going to throw out some of the, um, the parameters that you think are most important to pay attention to for the typical person who's trying to use weight training to build or maintain muscle.

   2. DFDr. Duncan French17:05

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman17:06

      Lose body fat, so body recomposition, and/or stay strong and healthy for sport-

   4. DFDr. Duncan French17:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman17:11

      ... of a different kind.

   6. DFDr. Duncan French17:12

      Yeah. So, the work that we obviously, you know, I was e- exposed to back in my PhD, um, it, it was a double-edged sword. In as much as testosterone is really stimulated by an intensity factor, uh, and also a volume factor. Now, growth hormone is a little bit different. That's largely driven by an intensity factor alone.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman17:28

      Oh, really?

   8. DFDr. Duncan French17:29

      Correct.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman17:29

      I always thought that growth hormone was driven by volume, which just goes to show you-

   10. DFDr. Duncan French17:32

       Maybe I've got that wrong.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman17:32

       No, no, no, no, I think you're probably right, which just goes to show you that most of what's out there on the internet-

   12. DFDr. Duncan French17:37

       Right.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman17:37

       ... is completely-

   14. DFDr. Duncan French17:38

       Right.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman17:39

       Not only, not only is it wrong, it's usually backward. So, no, trust, I, I-

   16. DFDr. Duncan French17:43

       (laughs) It's just my instinct.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman17:43

       No, trust your instinct-

   18. DFDr. Duncan French17:44

       (laughs)

   19. AHAndrew Huberman17:44

       ... because, because I think people just make this stuff up.

   20. DFDr. Duncan French17:47

       Right.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman17:47

       Right? Uh, because it's very hard to measure growth hormone and testosterone and, uh, and I'm, can't imagine most of the, the stuff that I see out there, they're taking drips and, and, you know-... measuring free versus bound and all this kind of stuff, but that's what you do in, in laboratories.

   22. DFDr. Duncan French18:01

       Right, yeah.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman18:01

       Yeah.

   24. DFDr. Duncan French18:01

       You, you look at total composition and you look at how much of that is free circulating-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman18:05

       Yeah.

   26. DFDr. Duncan French18:05

       ... in the system, how much is bound, and therefore, biologically active bound to receptor creating-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman18:10

       Right.

   28. DFDr. Duncan French18:10

       ... adaptation. Um, but yeah, coming back to testosterone, in terms of the training strategies, it's largely driven by boosting in intensity and a volume factor. So, if you look at many of the exercise interventions that we use to try and investigate and interrogate testosterone, um, it was, it was usually, you know, a, a, a 6 by 10 protocol. So, you're touching at-

   29. AHAndrew Huberman18:32

       6 by 10, meaning?

   30. DFDr. Duncan French18:33

       Yeah. S- six sets of 10 repetitions, which is, you know, is quite a large... You know, 60 repetitions is quite a large volume for a, a single exercise, and that was usually pitched at about 80% intense- of a one repetition max intensity.
6. 20:19 – 25:25

   Intensity: Mechanical Load; Volume: Metabolic Load; Inter-set Rest Periods

   1. AHAndrew Huberman20:19

      six rep- sets of ten repetitions to ten sets of ten repetitions, you s- it's not as beneficial and might even be counterproductive, but to me, the difference between six and ten sets is only four sets. It doesn't even sound that much. So, that sort of hints at the possibility that the thresholds for going from a workout that increases testosterone to a workout that diminishes testosterone is actually a pretty narrow margin.

   2. DFDr. Duncan French20:43

      Yeah, and I think it comes back to that intensity factor then. You know, what, what we saw with... That 10 by 10 protocol really sees pretty significant drop-offs in the load, um, and again, we're trying to stimulate with intensity, with mechanical strain through intensity, as well as metabolic strain through volume, and I think that's, that's the paradigm that you've got to look at, is that the mechanical load has to come from, you know, the vol- the actual weight on the bar, and the volume, um, is, is the metabolic stimulus. How much are we driving lactate? How much are we driving, you know, glycogenolysis in, in, in terms of that type of energy system for, um, you know, executing a, a 10 by 10 protocol? And what we often saw was just a significant reduction in the intensity capabilities of a, of an athlete to sustain that, so we shortened the volume, um, to try and maintain the intensity.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman21:32

      Interesting. And w- you could imagine just taking very long rest, keeping the session, being a big lazy bear in the, the training.

   4. DFDr. Duncan French21:39

      Right.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman21:39

      I sometimes do this. I tell myself I'm going to work out for 45 minutes, and then two hours later, I'm done, but not because I was huffing and puffing the whole time, but because I was training really slowly.

   6. DFDr. Duncan French21:49

      Right.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman21:49

      Is there any evidence that training slowly can offset some of the negative effects of doing a lot of volume?

   8. DFDr. Duncan French21:54

      Well, uh, it's the old adage of, you know... T- two responses to your question. I mean, the first one, I would say, you know, there's a difference between ten sets of six and six sets of ten, um, and I think that comes back to the volume conversation. You know, six sets of ten is driving up metabolic stimulus, um. If, if you're doing ten sets of six, you can probably take it to a higher intensity, but you're not going to get the same metabolic load. You're not going to get the same internal metabolic environment that drives the lactate release that, that will then signal, you know, further anabolic testosterone release because of the lactate in your body. Um, th- that, that's a key consideration. The rest is often the consideration that's overlooked, um, out there in general population and in many sporting environments. You know, the, the rest is, is as important a programming variable as the load and the intense- the intensity of the load, the, the volume, etcetera. Um, and yes, if you remove... If, if you extend the volue... If you extend the, the duration of your rest periods, what you're ultimately doing is influencing that metabolic stimulus again. You're allowing the flushing of the body, the removal of waste products, you know, lactate to be, you know, removed via... From, from the body, and then the, the metabolic environment is reduced, so-

   9. AHAndrew Huberman23:06

      So you want... So if I, if I understand correctly, you want to create a metabolic stress?

   10. DFDr. Duncan French23:11

       Absolutely.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman23:12

       So, so the way that I've been training, slow and lazy, is not necessarily the best way to go. I could g- I could, in theory, do a 45 or 60-minute session where I pack in more, more work per unit time. I'm not going to be able to, quote unquote, "perform" as well. I won't be able to lift as much.

   12. DFDr. Duncan French23:29

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman23:29

       I'm going to have to un- you know, unweight the bar between sets or maybe even during sets if I have someone who could do that.

   14. DFDr. Duncan French23:34

       Anyway-

   15. AHAndrew Huberman23:34

       But it sounds like that's the way to go, so it's got to be... So this, the old adage of high intensity, short duration is probably the way to go.

   16. DFDr. Duncan French23:42

       Correct, and, and, and, you know, in, in, in layman's terms, if the same objective, the same training goal is just muscle tissue growth, and we're not talking about maximal strength or any of those type of parameters. We're just talking about growing muscle. If there's an athlete A and they do six, six sets of ten with two minutes rest, and there's athlete B that does six sets of ten with three minutes let- rest, athlete A will likely see the highest muscle gains-

   17. AHAndrew Huberman24:04

       Hmm.

   18. DFDr. Duncan French24:05

       ... muscle hypertrophy gains because of the metabolic stimulus that they're driving with the shorter rest periods.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman24:10

       Interesting. And for all the years that I've spent-...exploring exercise science and trying to get this information from the internet (laughs) and various places, that this is the first time it's ever been, um, told to me clearly. So, basically, I need to put my ego aside, and I need to not focus so much on getting as many reps with a given weight and keep the rest restricted two min- about two minutes.

   20. DFDr. Duncan French24:34

       Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman24:34

       Get the work in, and then I'll derive the benefits.

   22. DFDr. Duncan French24:37

       I mean, you absolutely nailed it, to be honest. And again, if you think about human nature and how we approach... We're inherently lazy, right? As, as, as, as humans, we want to, you know, we want to take that rest. We want to take the, the time out to recover and feel refreshed. But we're trying to create a training stimulus. We're trying to create a very specific stimulus internal to the body, and that is often driven by the metabolic environment at that moment in time. Now, if we allow the metabolic environment to change by extending the rest periods, we're not going to see as, as beneficial gains at the end of it, so-

   23. AHAndrew Huberman25:08

       Very interesting.

   24. DFDr. Duncan French25:09

       It, it is, uh, it is very much a motivational and ego thing, um, rather than saying, okay, "I'm going to push my loads as high as I can and really challenge maximal strength, do fewer repetitions, take longer periods of time," it's a completely different approach to training. It's a different

7. 25:25 – 29:35

   Training Frequency & Combining Workout Goals

   1. DFDr. Duncan French25:25

      end goal.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman25:25

      Interesting. And you mentioned lactate. So, it seems still a bit controversial as to what actually triggers hypertrophy. You hear about lactate buildup or people that... The common language is the muscle gets torn and then repairs, but I don't know, does the muscle actually tear?

   3. DFDr. Duncan French25:40

      I mean, microtrauma.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman25:40

      Okay, microtrauma.

   5. DFDr. Duncan French25:41

      Yeah, yeah. Disruption of, um, you know, the mi- within the muscle tissue, for sure.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman25:45

      Interesting. And, and we're talking now about non-drug assisted, um, people-

   7. DFDr. Duncan French25:48

      Correct.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman25:49

      ...whose, whose, let's just say, let's define our terms here, that whose testosterone levels are within the, the range of somewhere between 300 and 1500 or whatever, 1200. Um, because it does seem that athletes who take high levels of exogenous androgens can do more work and just get protein synthesis from just doing work.

   9. DFDr. Duncan French26:10

      Yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman26:10

       You know? I've seen these guys in the gym, right? The t- the telltale signs are not that hard to spot, where they're just doing a, a ton of volume, not necessarily moving that much weight, they're just bringing blood into the, into the tissue, and then they're loading up on, they're eating a ton of protein, presumably because they're basically in puberty part 15.

   11. DFDr. Duncan French26:28

       Right.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman26:28

       Right? They're on their 15th round of puberty.

   13. DFDr. Duncan French26:31

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman26:31

       Where, during puberty, you are a protein synthesis machine. I mean, that's, to me, that, that's, uh, you know, pretty clear about puberty. Interesting. So, and then, um, you, in terms of, uh, because I know the audience likes to, uh, try protocols, so that, that, you described a protocol very nicely. Um, h- what about day-to-day recovery? I mean, can... The workout that you described is intense but short. How many days a week can the typical person do that and sustain progress?

   15. DFDr. Duncan French26:59

       Yeah, I mean, I think that comes back to your training age and your training history. Obviously, there's a resilience and a robustness with, with an incremental training age. So, you know, that's not a protocol that I would advise anyone to go out and start, you know, tomorrow, um-

   16. AHAndrew Huberman27:12

       They'll be mopping them off the gym floor.

   17. DFDr. Duncan French27:14

       Right. But at the same time, it's also relative, right? So, 80%, you know, of your, of your maximum at a young training age is still 80% versus, you know, been training 10 years, it's still 80%. But yes, the mechanical load is going to be significantly... It's just more tonnage, right? Um, but yeah, I think a, a protocol like that, we would look at two, two times, you know, a week, something that's, that's pretty intensive like that, because again, it comes back to the point you make, is that you really need to be, for want of a better term, suffering a little bit through that type of protocol, both in terms of, of the challenge of the load, but also being able to tolerate the m- the metabolic stress that you're exposed to. It's, it's a, it's a, you know, a bit of a sicko feeling, right, because of the lactate that you're driving up. So, I, you know, I wouldn't promote an athlete doing that type of modality, you know, multiple, multiple times, unless you're from the realms of bodybuilding, and then you really, that, that's the sole purpose of, of what you're trying to achieve. Most athletes, um, in most sports have, uh, diverse requirements in terms of outcomes that they're trying to achieve. They're not just targeting muscle growth. Uh, muscle growth is a, uh, a conduit to increased strength, increased power, um, increased speed, obviously, so yes, trying to get bigger cross-sectional area of a muscle means that we can produce more force into the ground or, or wherever it may be if we're a locomotive athlete. But usually, sportsmen and -women are not just purely seeking muscle growth. Um, they, they, they look for different facets of muscle endurance, of maximal muscle power, um, muscle strength, you know? So, then you've got to be very creative in how you build the workout. If it's a bodybuilder, absolutely. They're chasing muscle growth, and they're going to do so with these types of protocols, which sees high intensities and high volumes of workload, um, on a pretty regular basis. If it's just somebody, um, you know, a, a, a weekend warrior that wants to keep in shape and look, and look good, I would say, you know, two times a week for a really challenging workout like that, and then flex the other types of workouts within the week to have more of a, a volume emphasis, where you reduce the intensity, and you might just look at, you know, larger rep ranges from 12 to 15 to 20. Another workout where you're looking at, you know, reducing the volume but increasing the intensity and really trying to drive, you know, different stimulus to, to, to give you more endpoints of, of, of success.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman29:30

       Mm-hmm. Great. No, that's, that's really informative. Um, along the lines of

8. 29:35 – 36:55

   How Stress Can Increase or Decrease Testosterone

   1. AHAndrew Huberman29:35

      androgens and, um, intensity, when I think intensity, I think epinephrine, adrenaline. And, uh, since you have a background in-

   2. DFDr. Duncan French29:43

      Right.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman29:44

      ... catecholamines and testosterone, last time I was, uh, here at the UFC Performance Institute, we had a brief conversation, and I, I want to make sure I got the details right, that in the short term, a big increase in stress hormone can lead to an increase in testosterone, like a, like a parachute jump.

   4. DFDr. Duncan French30:00

      Correct.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman30:00

      Um, but, so stress can promote the release of testosterone.

   6. DFDr. Duncan French30:06

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman30:06

      That was news to me.

   8. DFDr. Duncan French30:08

      Right.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman30:08

      Um, we always hear about stress suppressing testosterone, stress suppressing the immune system, all these terrible things, but in the short term, uh......you're saying it can actually increase the release of testosterone. Uh, so I have that right?

   10. DFDr. Duncan French30:21

       Correct. Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman30:21

       Okay.

   12. DFDr. Duncan French30:21

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman30:22

       And so then the second question is, does my cognitive interpretation of the stressor make a difference? In other words, if I voluntarily jump out of a plane with a parachute, does it have a different effect on my testosterone than if you shoved me out of the plane against my will? Or presumably with a parachute-

   14. DFDr. Duncan French30:41

       Right.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman30:41

       ...too?

   16. DFDr. Duncan French30:42

       I mean, so, so this was what all my PhD work was, was looking at, was the, um, you know, the, the, uh, pre... Um, the exposure to a stressor and the pre-arousal of how your body essentially prepares for that stressor and then how it manages it throughout the exposure to the stress. And it was actually motivated from parachute jumpers. There, there was an older study, um, looking at parachute jumpers into, into, into combat. And, um, you know, they, they were studying, you know, the cortisol e- stress response and the epinephrine response of these parachute jumpers. So, we, we... It got us thinking about, "Hold on, you know, there's certain workouts that you do that are just... They're daunting." You know, it's like, okay, it's squat, squat Saturday or whatever it may be. "Oh my gosh, this is going to be a... This is going to destroy me." And I think-

   17. AHAndrew Huberman31:27

       Right. Or I have to talk to this person I don't want to talk to, or, you know-

   18. DFDr. Duncan French31:30

       (laughs) Exactly.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman31:30

       L- look, right? I mean-

   20. DFDr. Duncan French31:31

       Exactly.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman31:31

       ...something, or a PhD dissertation-

   22. DFDr. Duncan French31:33

       Exactly.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman31:34

       ...ex- exam or something.

   24. DFDr. Duncan French31:35

       ...like speaking, giving public speaking or whatever it may be. Now, you know, we, we, we used an exercise. We used a resistance training protocol that w- that these athletes knew w- was going to be very, very challenging. It's going to be... They just got to have some anxiety to doing it. They knew there were going to be some physical distress from doing it, um, and therefore, you know, their m- their mindset of how they were going to approach that was already set. So, what we saw prior, i- i- 15 minutes prior to the, the start of an ex- exposure t- to the workout, the, the epinephrine, the noradrenaline, the adrenaline was already starting to prepare the body sympathetically, um, to go into what it knew was going to be a very, very challenging workout. So, that brings you back to, you know, exercise preparation, competition for certain preparation, uh, preparation for certain competition. Excuse me. Um, you know, pre-workout routines, the use of music, um, you know, a- all these different things that we know can now w- you know, anecdotally in the gym we put into place. But, you know, the data that I presented t- showed that it was the first of its kind to show that this link between, um, you know, epinephrine and, and norepinephrine release and arousal and then consequent performance. So, force output throughout the, uh, throughout the workout was intimately linked.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman32:48

       So, what's the... What was the takeaway there? Should... Is it, um, beneficial for people to get a little stressed about the upcoming impending event, whether or not it's a lift in the gym, or whether or not it's talking to somebody that you might be intimidated to talk to, or a, a, an exam? Wh- Is it... Is the stress good for performance or is it harmful?

   26. DFDr. Duncan French33:07

       Yeah, and I think that's a great question, and I think I can only talk to, you know, physical exertion, which is what we were, we were, we were exploring. A- and I don't want to tread on the toes of the psychologists with flow state and these types of things, because clearly-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman33:21

       I think you're in the, the position of scientific strength (laughs) on this one.

   28. DFDr. Duncan French33:24

       (laughs) Right.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman33:24

       I think you have the leverage.

   30. DFDr. Duncan French33:25

       All right.
9. 36:55 – 46:55

   Using Cold Exposure for Mindset, Anti-Inflammation, Muscle-Growth

   1. AHAndrew Huberman36:55

      um, in particular, things like ice baths, cold showers, or, uh, any other type of, uh, cold temperature exposure. You know, in theory, that's stress also. It's epinephrine. And so, um, how should one think about the use of cold for recovery? So, if it's stress, how is... How is stress... If cold causes stresses, then how is cold used for recovery? That's what I don't understand, and maybe you just wanted to share your thoughts on that.

   2. DFDr. Duncan French37:26

      Yeah, no, and I think, you know, I think it's a great question, and I think the, the jury is still out there, certainly, um, knowing some of the conversations that we, we've been having. But I think, you know, when we talk about stress, it's your classic fight, flight, or freeze approach, um, and, you know, throwing your body into, you know, a, a cold tub, an ice bath, or whatever it may be, um, certainly is going to have a physiological stress response. Now, people are using that for different end, end goals. And again, I think that's where the narrative has to be explained. Um, if you are using the stress specifically to manage the mindset, um, to use it as a specific stress stimulus, that's the same as me doing 6 by 10, 80%. You know, you're just trying to find something to disrupt the system, to do something that's very, um, for want of a better term, painful, discomfort, whatever. Um, you're just finding a stressor and then being able to manage the mindset. But if you're using cold, um, specifically from a physiological perspective, to promote, um, you know, redistribution of vascularity, uh, of blood flow, you know, to, to different vascular areas of, of muscle that, that you feel have gone through a workout, that are damaged or whatever it may be, I think there's... We've got to understand what that stress mechanism is. And, you know, the, the data, the literature is certainly still out there with respect to cryotherapy and cold baths and some of these, um, you know, high... These, these cold exposures in terms of what they do at the, at the level of the muscle tissue. If that's, if that's the target, if you're trying to promote a flushing mechanism or you're trying to promote redistribution of, of the blood flow, what you've got to understand is that cold is going to clamp down every part of the vascular system, um, and we've really got to understand how the muscle would be redistributed, um, to areas of interest. So, you know, I think the stress response is, is, is, is a real thing with respect to, you know, cold exposure, um, but I think the narrative around what are you using the cold for has to precede the conversation, because yes, it's... You know, it's like putting your hand over a hot coal. You know, that, that's a stress the same way as jumping in a cold bath is, um-

   3. AHAndrew Huberman39:40

      I think most people don't realize that. That you're going to get the epinephrine release from holding your hand over too close to flame.

   4. DFDr. Duncan French39:45

      Absolutely.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman39:45

      And you're going to get it from getting in the ice bath.

   6. DFDr. Duncan French39:46

      And your body doesn't know the difference, right? Your body does not know the difference. It is a, you know, a, a, a primordial kind of physiological response that it's created over millions and millions of years, and I think that that's, uh, that physiology is, is not changing and it's, it's fixed in a particular way right now, um, that, that it doesn't understand the difference between whether it's 6 by 10 doing a challenging workout over here, whether it's putting my hands on the hot coal, whether there's a lion stood in front of me, or whatever. That epinephrine response from the, the level of the brain down to the, the whole signaling cascade is, is the same.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman40:21

      Mm-hmm. And cold, I've heard, can actually prevent some of the beneficial ef- effects of training.

   8. DFDr. Duncan French40:28

      Right.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman40:28

      That it can actually get in, get in the way of muscle growth, etc.

   10. DFDr. Duncan French40:33

       Yeah, there's, there's, there's some pretty robust data out there now showing that it, it definitely has an influence on performance variables like strength and power in particular, um, but absolutely in terms of muscle hypertrophy. And there's a big kind of theme in, in the world of athletic performance right now in terms of periodization of cold exposure as, as a recovery modality.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman40:54

       Interesting.

   12. DFDr. Duncan French40:54

       When do you use cold? You know, should you be using cold for recovery in periods of high training load when you're actually pursuing, you know, maybe general prepara- preparatory work where you're actually trying to pursue muscle growth? Well, that's usually where you get the most sore. It's usually where, you know, you, you feel the most fatigued, but it's probably not the most beneficial approach to use an ice bath in that, in that scenario because you're dampening, you're dulling, the, you know, the mTOR pathway and, and the, the hyper- hypertrophic, um, signaling pathway. Whereas in a competition phase where actually quality of exercise and quality of execution of skill and technical work has to be maintained, you want to throw the kitchen sink of recovery, uh, capabilities and recovery interventions in that scenario because you now... You know, the, the muscle building activity should be in the bank. That should have been done in the, in the general prepara- preparatory work and, um, now you're focusing on technical execution, so you're absolutely right.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman41:52

       No, it's interesting. So, if I, if I understand correctly, uh, if, if I want to maximize muscle growth or power, uh, or, you know, improvements and adaptations, then the inflammation response, the delayed onset muscle soreness, all the stuff that's uncomfortable and that we hear is so terrible is actually the stimulus for adaptation. And so, using cold in that situation might short circuit my progress. But if I'm... You know, I don't know that I'll ever do this, but if I were to do an Ironman or something or run a marathon, under those conditions, I'm basically coming to the, to the race, so to speak, with all the power and strength I'm going to have, and so there, reducing inflammation is good because it's going to allow me to perform more work, essentially.

   14. DFDr. Duncan French42:35

       Absolutely. Yeah, y- you have to be strategic about when you use some of these interventions, and, you know, the, the time when you're preparing for a competition is not the appropriate time. Uh, excuse me, is the appropriate time when you want to drive recovery and make sure that your body is optimized. Um, you know, when you're far away from a, uh, uh, competition, you know, date or, you know, out of season or whatever it may be and you're really trying to just......tear up the body a little bit to allow it to... its natural, um, you know, healing and adaptation processes to take place. Well, you don't want to negate that. You, you know, you want the body to optimize its internal recovery and that's how muscle growth is going to happen, so...

   15. AHAndrew Huberman43:14

       So interesting.

   16. DFDr. Duncan French43:15

       Th- there's a time kind of consideration that you need to make with these interventions, for sure.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman43:19

       At the UFC Performance Center, are the, are the fighters periodizing their cold exposure, or are they just doing c- uh, cold at, at, at will?

   18. DFDr. Duncan French43:28

       Well, it's not just the UFC. And again, I, I, I talk about my personal experiences with different sports. I think just education around where science is at and our, our understanding of, of concepts like the use of cold exposure for recovery, ice bath, you know, everyone wants to jump in an ice bath. But I think as we've, as we've stepped back and scientists have started to say, have, have started to figure out and look at some of the data, you know, we're, we're now more intuitive about, well, actually that might not be the best or the most optimal approach. And I think that's, that's any given sport. So yes, certainly here at the, at the UFC, we're trying to educate our athletes around, you know, appropriate timing, and it's the same with nutrition, it's the same with an ice bath intervention, it's the same with lifting weights, it's the same with going for a run or working out on the bike. You know, the, there's, there's tactics to when, when you do things and when you don't do things, and I think, you know, stress and, and cold exposure, um, we have to have a consideration around that as well. But it's not just, you know, MMA fighters. That's any, any athlete. And I think it's the, the best, the best professionals, the most successful professionals do that really well. They under- they listen, number one, they, they educate themselves, and then they build structure. And I think, you know, at the most elite level, we, we always talk about it here at the UFC, but at the most elite level, you're not necessarily training harder than anybody else. Everybody in the UFC trains hard, like everyone is training super hard, but the best athletes, the, the true elite levels are the ones that can do it again and again and again on a daily basis and sustain a technical output for skill development, therefore their skills can improve, or physical development, their physical attributes can improve. So, that ability to reproduce on a day-to-day basis falls into a recovery conversation. Now, when is the right time to use something like an ice bath and when isn't is part of the high performance con- conversation, for sure.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman45:21

       So really, they're scientists. They're building structure, they're figuring out variables.

   20. DFDr. Duncan French45:25

       Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman45:25

       But it sounds like the ability to do more quality work over time is one of the key variables.

   22. DFDr. Duncan French45:31

       I mean, it's fundamental. I mean, garbage in, garbage out. Quality in, quality out. But in our sport, you know, I talk about mixed martial arts, it's truly a decathlon of combat. So, there's so many different attributes, whether it's the grappling, whether it's the wrestling, whether it's the transition work, whether it's the standup striking. So, the different facets of a training program in this sport are significantly large compared to something like, um, you know, a wide receiver in football. That's no disrespect for wide receivers, but they run routes. They, they're going to run a route, a, a, a passing tree, and that's all they need to do. These guys have to be on the ground, they got to be great on the ground, they got to be great standing up, they got to be great with their feet, you know, their back against the fence. So, there's so many different kind of facets to our sport. So, managing the distribution of all the training components is one of the biggest challenges of mixed martial arts and, and the best guys get that right. They, they allow their body to, to optimize the training, and remember, why, why are we doing training? We're doing training for ta- technical and tactical improvement. Now, if you, if your body is fatigued or you just can't expose yourself to more tactical development or technical development, then you're essentially doing yourself a disservice. You're going to be behind the curve with, with respect to those guys that can reproduce that day in, day out.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman46:50

       On the topic of, uh, skill development, regardless of sport, uh,

10. 46:55 – 50:05

    Skill Development

    1. AHAndrew Huberman46:55

       we hear all the time, and it certainly is, uh, intuitive to me that the person who can focus the best will progress the fastest, but it's kind of interesting, sometimes I talk to athletes, and, um, they seem, uh, a little bit laid back about their training sometimes, and yet they obviously know how to flip the switch and they can really, you know, dial in the intensity. Do you think that there are optimal protocols for skill learning in terms of physical skill learning? Like could it ever be parameterized like the six sets of 10 reps? Um, you know, and this gets to the heart of neuroplasticity, which is still, you know, it's not a black box, but it's kind of, uh, a black box with portions of it illuminated, I like to, I like to say. But, you know, what are your thoughts on skill development? Is there... For somebody that wants to get better at sport, uh, do you recommend a particularly, um, long or short training session? Does intensity matter or is it just reps?

    2. DFDr. Duncan French47:53

       Yeah, I think... No. It's, it's not a volume-driven exercise. It's a quality-driven exercise, and listen, my expertise is not in motor learning and motor skill acquisition. Um, I, I tend to default to Gab- Dr. Gabriele Wulf here at UNLV f- for that. She's one of the leading proponents in this area, but, you know, if, if you look at, um, you know, true skill development, it is about rehearsal of accurate movement, accurate movement mechanics, um, and the soon- as soon as that becomes impacted by fatigue or inaccurate movement, you're now losing the, the motor learning. You're losing the accuracy of the skill, you know, people can call it muscle memory or whatever they want, right? But essentially, you're grooving neural axons to, to create movement patterns and they're situational throughout sport, right, you know, whether it's a Cruyff turn in soccer or a jump shot in basketball or a forehand down the line. You, you can carve out that particular posture and position and skill and you can isolate it and you can drill it again and again and again. Now, as soon as fatigue is, is influencing that repetition, it's time, it's time to stop, and the best coaches understand that. They understand that it's quality over quantity when it comes to skill acquisition. So, to answer your question in a roundabout way, I would say yes, it- it's, it's shorter sessions that are very high quality, and I think the best athletes, in my experience, are the ones that consciously and cognitively...... are aware of it at every moment of the training session. They should, they should leave the training session, not necessarily just physically fatigued, but mentally fatigued, because they're completely engaged in the learning process.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman49:35

       Mm-hmm.

    4. DFDr. Duncan French49:36

       The, the, the problem then becomes, okay, if we just do lots of, you know, 30-minute sessions, we've got to do a lot of 30-minute sessions to get the volume exposure of the repetition and the rehearsal of this skill again and again and again. So, it's a bit of a paradox. It's a bit of, of a double-edged sword. But you know, a, a three-hour session versus a 90-minute session, you know, we'll, we'll take the 90-minute session any day when it comes to skill acquisition, because that's going to be driven by quality over quantity.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman50:04

       Yeah.

11. 50:05 – 53:55

    Why Hard Exercise Creates Brain Fog: Role of Nutrition

    1. AHAndrew Huberman50:05

       Training and skill learning is incredibly mentally fatiguing. I've often wondered why when one works out hard, whether or not it's with, uh, you know, a run or with the weights, why it's hard to think later in the day.

    2. DFDr. Duncan French50:18

       Right.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman50:18

       Yeah. It really, there really does seem to be something to it. Uh, and I've wondered, is it depletion of adrenaline, dopamine? I sometimes think it's might be dopamine. And here, I'm totally speculating. I don't have any data to support this. But if you hit a really hard workout or run early in the day, oftentimes the brain just doesn't want to do hard mental work.

    4. DFDr. Duncan French50:39

       Right.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman50:39

       Which gives me great admiration for these athletes that are drilling their mind and body all, all day, every day, um, with breaks. But, uh, so what are your thoughts? What, what, uh, what leads to the mental fatigue after physical performance?

    6. DFDr. Duncan French50:53

       Well, again, I don't want to talk out... You know, I'm talking to the, to the man here, you know, this, this ............................

    7. AHAndrew Huberman50:56

       Well, we're, we're just two scientists speculating on...

    8. DFDr. Duncan French50:59

       Yeah, yeah. I, I...

    9. AHAndrew Huberman50:59

       On this point, up until now, we've been, uh, you've been giving us concrete...

    10. DFDr. Duncan French51:02

        (laughs)

    11. AHAndrew Huberman51:02

        ...um, uh, peer-reviewed study-based feedback on the, my questions. But, but if we were to speculate, I mean, I think this is a common occurrence. People think, "If I get that really good workout in in the morning, I feel better all day."

    12. DFDr. Duncan French51:12

        Right.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman51:12

        That's true, unless that workout is, is really intense or really long.

    14. DFDr. Duncan French51:17

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman51:17

        And then, you just... The mind just somehow won't latch onto mental work quite...

    16. DFDr. Duncan French51:24

        I...

    17. AHAndrew Huberman51:24

        Quite as well.

    18. DFDr. Duncan French51:25

        I, I mean, put just philosophically, and I think there's, there, there's a, there's a, coming back to this kind of stress consideration, you know, like a, a public speaking or taking an exam, I mean, if you're, if, if, if you have an amazing coach who is setting up training in a particular way, it's challenging. It, there's a strain related to it. And I'm not talking physical strain. I'm talking figuring things out, you know, figuring out the skill. And I think that can be stressful. Like, the learning process can be stressful. So, um, you know, we've touched on stress. I also think if they, if they, you know, if they, if they hit the right technique, you know, that reward center in the brain, that dopamine shot is, is gonna fly up there. And there's only so many times that we can get that before it, that becomes dampened. And I think there's an energetic piece to it. You know, there's the fueling of, of the brain. There's the, there's the, the, the carbohydrate fuel and exercise that actually the strategy around how you fuel for learning and fuel for physical training is, is actually pretty similar.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman52:23

        Mm-hmm. Glucose.

    20. DFDr. Duncan French52:24

        Yeah, it's, it's glucose. It's sugar at the end of the day, right? Um, so, you know, are you, are you, are you fueling accordingly around your training sessions? Be that very physical 'cause everyone thinks, "Okay, you know, I'm going to jump on a treadmill and I'm going to bang out, you know, 15 sprints at, at max effort and I'm going to, you know, be dropping off and lying on the floor at the end of it. I need to refuel." Well, what about the refueling of the brain in a very demanding, uh, exercise or drilling session where you're looking at technique that you're trying to figure out, that's very challenging for your mind to figure out the complexity of it? That still needs to be fueled or refueled afterwards, and I think that's obviously might be an area where athletes do themselves a disservice by not appropriately fueling from what might be considered to be a lower intensity session, but the, the, the cognitive challenge has been significantly high.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman53:15

        So, they're doing skill work or drill work and it's taxing the brain.

    22. DFDr. Duncan French53:19

        Correct, yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman53:19

        But they're thinking, "Oh, you know, I wasn't, you know, pushing hard lifts or, or doing sprints and so I can just go off into the rest of my day." But then their, their, their mind is drifting.

    24. DFDr. Duncan French53:29

        Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman53:29

        Yeah, yeah.

    26. DFDr. Duncan French53:29

        I mean, I, I speculate ............................

    27. AHAndrew Huberman53:31

        Yeah, no, that, that seems very reasonable. I mean, I know that, um, here and presumably with the other athletes you've worked with, uh, nutrition is a huge, um, aspect of that. And I think the general public can learn a lot from athletic nutrition because in, at the end of the day, the general public is trying to attend to their kids, attend to their work, whether or not they're lawyers or whatever. Um, they need to focus. Uh, nutrition is a barbed wire topic.

12. 53:55 – 56:15

    Low-Carbohydrate Versus All-Macronutrient Diets on Performance

    1. AHAndrew Huberman53:55

    2. DFDr. Duncan French53:55

       Oh, yeah (laughs) .

    3. AHAndrew Huberman53:56

       But, uh, if, since we're free to, uh, do what we would do if we were just sitting in each other's offices, which is to just, uh, speculate a bit, it, for the typical person, right, do you think these, um, low carbohydrate diets, um, typical person who exercises, runs, swims, yoga, lifts weights, maybe not all those things, but some collection of those, is pushes themselves to do those things and to do them well, but isn't necessarily a highly competitive athlete. Do you think that, um, nutrition that doesn't include a lot of glucose, doesn't include a lot of carbohydrates, um, is a problem or is it okay? Uh, what do you, what do you recommend for athletes? What do you recommend for typical people?

    4. DFDr. Duncan French54:37

       Yeah. Again, disclaimer, I'm not a dietician. Um, but I...

    5. AHAndrew Huberman54:41

       That's okay. The dieticians don't know what to recommend to athletes either.

    6. DFDr. Duncan French54:44

       (laughs)

    7. AHAndrew Huberman54:44

       And I say that from having spent a lot of time with the literature now. It's a complete...

    8. DFDr. Duncan French54:49

       Right.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman54:49

       ... mess.

    10. DFDr. Duncan French54:49

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman54:50

        It's like, I thought we didn't understand anything about the brain. The nutrition science stuff is all over the place.

    12. DFDr. Duncan French54:54

        Right.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman54:55

        So, I think we have, again, a m-

    14. DFDr. Duncan French54:57

        We've got some freedom.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman54:57

        A large degrees of freedom here, yeah.

    16. DFDr. Duncan French54:59

        Right, right, right. I mean, I think, you know, th- I, I, I think for, it's, it comes down to metabolic efficiency. Um, so we would never, we would never advocate a high... No, no, I never say never, okay? But, you know, we rarely advocate a high performance athlete in a, in a high intensity intermittent sport like MMA, um......being totally ketogenic, or, or they'll be-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman55:20

        You do not recommend that?

    18. DFDr. Duncan French55:21

        W- no. Because at the end of the day, some of those high intensity efforts, um, l- usually require, you know, carbohydrate fueling, um, f- for the high, and the energy, um, the energy to produce at those high intensities. So, we try to, uh, navigate around that. Now, listen, there are fighters in the UFC and elsewhere, Matt Brown is a great example, um, who, who's, you know, promotes the ketogenic approach and it works for him, but we, we, we look at the science and the nature, the characteristics of our sport, and we don't necessarily promote that.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman55:51

        Can I interrupt you real quick? What about ketones for people that are ingesting carbohydrates? This is an interesting area because people always hear ketones and they think, "Oh, I have to be ketogenic to benefit from taking ketones."

    20. DFDr. Duncan French56:02

        Right.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman56:02

        But there are a number of athletes and, um, recreational athletes now as well, taking liquid or powder-based ketones-

    22. DFDr. Duncan French56:10

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman56:11

        ...on, even though they do eat rice and oatmeal and bread and other things,

13. 56:15 – 59:13

    Ketones & Brain Energy, Offsetting Brain Injury; Spiking Glucose During Ketosis

    1. AHAndrew Huberman56:15

       uh, so w- are there any, um, known benefits of ketones even if one is not in a state of ketosis?

    2. DFDr. Duncan French56:22

       So, the, the, the, uh, the only, the use of ketones that I'm primarily aware of is, is, um, in our sport, is after the event, you know, in terms of the brain health with athletes that take, potentially taking trauma to the brain, etcetera, and looking to maintain the, the fueling and the energy supply to the brain. But yes, it's probably a little bit out of my remit, so I, I don't want to talk on that because I'm not, I'm not fully familiar with that.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman56:46

       Well, I've heard that ketones, um, after head injury can provide a buffering component.

    4. DFDr. Duncan French56:51

       Correct.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman56:51

       It's not going to reverse brain damage, but it might be able to offset some of the micro-damage.

    6. DFDr. Duncan French56:56

       Right, so that's what, that's how we use it, just to sustain, um, you know, the energy supply to the brain that might be compromised through brain trauma, um, so that's why we use k- ketones. Um, to come back to your original question, if it's a, a, you know, general population, then yes, I think there's a place to argue that actually being on a ketogenic diet at times, and maybe this, it's a cycling exercise, maybe not, you know, I don't mean cycling a bike, I mean cycling, um, ketosis, um, is beneficial because I think it's going to lead to better metabolic management and, and, and metabolic efficiency. Uh, those lower intensities where we should be fueling our, our metabolism with lipids and fats, um, clearly the, the Western diet and, and, you know, the modern day diets is heavily driven by processed foods and carbohydrates that, you know, people become predisposed to utilization of that fuel source, um, above lipid use, fat use, um, at intensities that are very low, so, you know, some of our data with the fighters shows that as well, um.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman57:56

       Yeah.

    8. DFDr. Duncan French57:56

       But I think the challenge for us is that we're working with a clientele that require high intensity bouts of effort, um, so, you know, fueling appropriately, um, is, is very important for that. Now, we use, we use tactics here where we essentially have athletes on what you would say kind of a, is a, a largely a ketogenic diet, but then we will fuel carbohydrates around training sessions, so we'll do very timed exposure to carbohydrates, so it's not-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman58:23

       Post training?

    10. DFDr. Duncan French58:24

        Post training. Immediately pre, during, and then immediately post, and then the rest of their diets, you know, breakfast, lunch, and dinner are what would look like ketogenic type approaches, so we're trying to be very tactical in the exposure to maximize the intensity for the training, um, and then return to a metabolically efficient diet, which is heavily reduced in carbohydrate because we've fueled the, the sessions that need it.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman58:50

        I'm smiling because, uh, once again, the, this place, the UFC Performance Center (laughs) is doing things scientifically, which, you know, to me, the idea that, and I, and I'm pleased to hear that because to me, this idea that the ketogenic diet is the best and only diet, or carbohydrates and, uh, low protein diets are the best diet, it's just, it's ludicrous.

    12. DFDr. Duncan French59:10

        Right.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman59:11

        Then you mentioned metabolic efficiency.

14. 59:13 – 1:05:00

    Metabolic Efficiency, Matching Nutrition to Training, “Needs Based Eating”

    1. AHAndrew Huberman59:13

       I think, um, some people might be familiar with that term, some perhaps, um, not, but the way I understand metabolic, uh, efficiency is that you're, you teach the body to use fats by maybe doing long, long bouts of cardio, maybe lowering carbohydrates a bit, so teaching the body to tap into its fat stores for certain periods of training, and then you also teach the body to utilize carbohydrates by supplying carbohydrates immediately after training and before training. You teach the body to use ketones and then you use them at the appropriate time as opposed to just deciding that one of these fuel sources is good and all the others are bad or dispensable. Do I have that correct?

    2. DFDr. Duncan French59:51

       You nailed it.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman59:51

       Oh, yeah.

    4. DFDr. Duncan French59:51

       I mean, for, uh, from, uh, Bob Siebehart is, form- formerly of USA Triathlon, um, is, is the guy that kind of came up with the, the concept of metabolic efficiency, but yes, you're absolutely right. I mean, at low intensities of exercise or just day-to-day living, we shouldn't be tapping into our, um, carbohydrate fuel sources extensively. That, that's, that's for higher intensity work or, you know, the fight or flight needs of, of stress, you know? Um, if, you know, athletes or any individual has a, you know, a high carbohydrate diet, they're going to start to become predisposed to utilizing that fuel source preferentially. Now, a low intensity, that can be problematic, certainly for an athlete, because if they preferentially use carbohydrate at lower intensities, when the, when the exercise demand goes to a higher intensity, they've already exhausted their fuel stores, you know? They can't draw upon fat because the oxidization of that, that fat is just too slow, so they're essentially now become fatigued, um, because they've, they've already utilized their carbohydrate stores.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:56

       Yeah.

    6. DFDr. Duncan French1:00:56

       So, what we try to do, yes, through diet manipulation and a little bit of exercise manipulation, is as you say, teach the body or train the body to preferentially use a specific fuel source. Fat, obviously, at lower intensities, and carbohydrate at high intensities, and we will look at specifically the crossover point between the two tells a lot in terms of how an athlete is, is ultimately, um, you know, how their metabolism is working.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:18

       Well, again, I- I'm smiling because I love this because w-...it's, it's grounded in something real and scientific, which is that we have these different fuel sources, the body can adapt to use any number of them or one of them. I think most people are looking for that one pattern of eating, that one pattern of exercising that's going to be best for them or sustain them, and they often look back to the time when they felt so much better switching from one thing to the next. But the adaptation process itself is also key, right? Teaching the body. And I, um, so if we were to, um, just riff on this just a little bit further, if, if somebody, uh, I'll use myself as an example since I, uh, can only, um, speculate what other people's, uh, current nutrition protocols are, but if somebody is eating in a particular way and they want to try this kind of periodization of nutrition, um, could one say, "Okay, uh, for a few weeks I'm going to do more high intensity interval training and weight training, and I'm going to eat a bit more carbohydrate because I'm depleting more glycogen." Then if I switch to a, uh, phase of my training where I'm doing some longer runs, maybe I'm not, maybe I'm training less, maybe I'm just working at my desk a little bit more, then I might switch to a lower, lower carbohydrate diet. Do I have that right? And then if I'm going to enter a competition of some sort, certainly not UFC-

    8. DFDr. Duncan French1:02:34

       Right. (laughs)

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:34

       ...or MMA of any kind, to be clear, uh, not because it isn't a wonderful sport, but because it's, uh, that wouldn't be good for my other profession. But, um, if I were going to do that, then I would think about stacking carbohydrates, ketones and, and fats. Is that... Do I have that more or less right?

    10. DFDr. Duncan French1:02:51

        I mean, I think, y- yeah, I think you did, said it eloquently. At the end of the day, you're consciously understanding what the, um, the exposure to, to physical ex- exertion is, and you're flexing your diet accordingly. And I think that, that-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:04

        So, it's need-based eating.

    12. DFDr. Duncan French1:03:05

        Exactly. You know, for, for want of better terms, you know, you can call it whatever fancy terminology there is out there, but yes, it's, it's needs-based eating, um, but you are very conscious and cognizant of, "What is my current exercise status?" You know, if I'm, you know, if I'm taking some time off, then, you know, don't gorge on the carbohydrates. We probably need to be cut. It's going to be lower intensity work or even just habitual day-to-day walking around, doing your groceries, you know, that, that doesn't require massive amounts of glycogen storage and, and, and, and carbohydrate fueling. Um, so you can potentially go more ketogenic in nature, you know, oxidizing lipids for that fuel. Um, if you are in a high period of, of high intensity training, then you have to consciously flex your diet to support that. That's not normal. You've, you've made a, a change, you've elevated the demand, so the fueling requirements for the regenerat- not only fueling the exercise, but the regenerative re- requirements of your body after that type of work is going to be really important as well. So yes, take on more carbohydrates. So, I think it's consciously interpreting the nature of your diet against what... where you are at any moment in time.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:11

        I like that. You know, I think, um, the listeners of my podcast generally are experimenters.

    14. DFDr. Duncan French1:04:17

        Right.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:17

        They, they are scientists of themselves-

    16. DFDr. Duncan French1:04:19

        Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:19

        ...which, um, which makes me happy obviously, and, and, and I like to think that they're paying attention to the changes they're making and how they're affecting themselves, and they seem more open to, um, trying things, provided they can do it safely, you know, and, um, and, and seeing what works for them, and I'm certainly going to try some of the change up. I also am really a creature of habit, and I think the, uh, talking to you today, I realize I'm probably doing a number of things truly wrong in my training, but also that I don't tend to vary, uh, my nutrition with my training quite as much as I should. I'm just locked into a protocol. Um, we, uh, we covered a number of things related to your PhD thesis work and then, uh, but I cut you off early on related

15. 1:05:00 – 1:08:00

    Duncan’s Work with Olympic Athletes, NCAA, UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship)

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:00

       to your, uh, trajectory. After you finished your thesis-

    2. DFDr. Duncan French1:05:03

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:04

       ...you... I know you were at Notre Dame for a while. Was that your first spot after, after your PhD thesis?

    4. DFDr. Duncan French1:05:09

       No, no. I, um, I basically finished my PhD and I dropped into the British Olympic system for about 14 years.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:17

       Oh, my. Okay.

    6. DFDr. Duncan French1:05:17

       I was, I was, I was with them. You know, I've done three full Olympic cycles, um, w- with different sports and largely a strength and conditioning coach, um, a- as a practitioner. I was always working in, in universities and academia alongside, you know, in terms of continuing to publish and write, um, and, and do research and teach as well, 'cause I enjoy, I enjoy teaching. (laughs)

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:37

       That explains the huge volume of publications.

    8. DFDr. Duncan French1:05:40

       (laughs) Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:40

       I don't think people realize all of the work that goes into getting a quality peer-reviewed publication. It's not, uh... What, what do they call it now on Instagram? Anecdata, where people who do something once, you know?

    10. DFDr. Duncan French1:05:50

        Right.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:50

        They have-

    12. DFDr. Duncan French1:05:50

        Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:50

        ...this experience and then they put it into the world that-

    14. DFDr. Duncan French1:05:52

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:52

        It's, uh, a- anecdata are... I don't even know that we should call it data. But, uh, so 14 years in the, working with the British Olympic team?

    16. DFDr. Duncan French1:06:01

        Yeah. So, with, uh, you know, whether it was GB boxing primarily with the, with the, the Rio cy- excuse me, the, the Beijing cycle, but also lightweight rowers and gymnastics, um, for the London Olympic Games, that cycle I was with... I was, uh, the lead strength and conditioning and physical performance coach for British basketball, so GB basketball. Um, I had about three years, um, in the English Premier League, um, with, with Newcastle United and, and the soccer team, and then for the Rio Olympic cycle, I was with Great Britain taekwondo, so again, a- another combat sport. Um, after I'd finished there, I kind of moved to the University of Notre Dame, um, where I went into more of a, more of a managerial position working across all the different technical services, medical, nutrition, strength and conditioning, you know, sp- psychology, uh, whatever, sport science, whatever it may be, um, as the, you know, uh, the, um, director of performance sciences at, for Notre Dame Athletics. And then, after about 16 months there, the UFC came, uh, knocking and, and I, they recruited me out of Notre Dame, so, um, it's been, uh...... it's been a great ride and lots of, you know, I've got, you know, lot, lots of athletes have taught me a lot along the way, lots of coaches. You know, every day is a school day. I, I, I still try and keep that, that mentality and, you know, in this world we call it white bent- white belt mentality, you know? It's, uh, you know, I'm a, I'm a PhD, I've got 25 years of experience in, in high performance sport, but, um, I still, I still learn every single day from these people out on the mats and in the ring and it's, it's impressive to see what they do.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:28

        Yeah, it certainly is. I, I'd got introduced to MMA just a few years ago. Uh, I think the first time I came out here was one of the first times I'd heard of MMA 'cause I was kind of in my laboratory and, you know, nose down. Um, and it's a really interesting sport because it incorporates so many different types of movement, as you had said.

    18. DFDr. Duncan French1:07:44

        Right.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:44

        You know, it's not just standup boxing, it's not just kicking, it's ev- you know, ground game, everything, and I'm still learning about it. Um, but, uh, as you mentioned, going in with that beginner's mind, the wh- white bend m- uh, white belt mentality, um, what,

16. 1:08:00 – 1:12:40

    Why UFC & MMA (Mixed-Martial Arts) Are So Valuable for Advancing Performance

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:00

       w- what has been the most surprising thing for you in terms of being exposed to M- MMA in particular as opposed to other sports? Like, what's, what's unique about MMA fighters besides that they have this huge variety of, of, uh, sp- tactical skills that they have to learn and perfect?

    2. DFDr. Duncan French1:08:17

       (lips smacking) Uh, yeah, that's a great question. Uh, uh, I would say two things, I'm going to answer two questions. One actually reiterates what you've already said. Like, the degrees of freedom in mixed martial arts are exponential, like no other sport, you know? You, y- we've got 11 different weight classes. We have men's classes, we have women's classes, we have, um, you know, kickboxers, wrestlers, jujitsu fighters, judokas, you know, like karate fighters. You know, the stylistic backgrounds are infinite. Um, we have, uh, we're a weight classification sport. There's a whole issue relating to making weight and then rebounding to, to fight about 24 to 30 hours. Like, just the variability in this sport, the, the, the considerations that you have to make are unprecedented compared to any other sport that I've worked with. Um, and a lot of them go against and they are the antithesis of what you would expect for high performance, you know? In, in terms of we, we don't always have a very clearly defined competition schedule, you know? Once these guys fight, they, they don't necessarily know when their next fight's going to be.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:18

       What's the closest spacing of a, of a fight?

    4. DFDr. Duncan French1:09:20

       I mean, listen, I think the, the, the record is around, um, it's, it's just over a month, I believe.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:27

       (laughs) Oh my goodness.

    6. DFDr. Duncan French1:09:27

       Um, so, you know, that, that's a quick turnaround. But most of these guys are fighting, you know, three or four times a year. Three times a year is, is pretty normal. Um, the, the, the bigger fights, maybe two times a year. But invariably, the guys don't know when that next date is going to be, so we're in this gray area of, "Okay, what, what, what do we do? Like, are we, are we taking some time off? Are we just gonna do some general prep work? Are we gonna try and s- k- keep this sh- you know, the knife sharpened in case I get-"

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:53

       I didn't realize this. In that way, it's a lot like special operations.

    8. DFDr. Duncan French1:09:57

       Absolutely. You don't know when the call is gonna happen.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:58

       They, right, they have to be ready at all times. There isn't this like, "Let's get ready for season."

    10. DFDr. Duncan French1:10:02

        Right. Yeah, like when, when I was with the British Olympic Association, you know, on you as the, the British Open, the Spanish Open, the French Open, the European Championships, the Israeli Open, the American Open, the Canadian Open, the Olympic Games. You know, I could, you, you have that-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:15

        It's a circuit in your brain.

    12. DFDr. Duncan French1:10:16

        Right.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:16

        I can tell, yeah. (laughs)

    14. DFDr. Duncan French1:10:16

        Yeah, you just, you just (laughs) plan like-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:18

        Exactly.

    16. DFDr. Duncan French1:10:18

        ... you, you know where all the targets are going to be. Here, it's a moving target because you might be just hanging out doing some general prep work, and then you might get a short notice fight, they give you a quick call and it's in six weeks or five weeks, and okay, I've got to ramp everything up really quickly. So, that's a real challenge in terms of just managing all these, this, these different components of mixed martial arts, um, alone. The, the other, to come back to your question, the other thing which is truly fascinating about these individuals is their, just their mental resilience. And again, it, we've, we've touched on it in the talk, but you know, the ability to do what they do on a daily basis, to, um, look at all the different skill sets that they have to try and engage in and, and, and bring into their training. To do that and, and, and embrace the grind, embrace the process of just learning, um, the physical side of our sport is unprecedented, um, but the mental side, you know? (laughs) We have a funny saying, we always say, "It's 90% medical, uh, 90% mental apart from the 60% that's physical." So, you, you know, it's just, it's just more and more and more. And these, these guys' ability to, um, to just do that on a daily basis is, is, is, is very impressive. Like, the resilience, their, their internal drive and their resilience is, is, is really impressive to see.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:34

        Yeah. All the fighters I've met here have been really terrific. It's interesting, every time I meet a fighter how often I, um, I shouldn't be surprised more they're often very soft-spoken.

    18. DFDr. Duncan French1:11:42

        Right.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:43

        They're always extremely polite.

    20. DFDr. Duncan French1:11:44

        Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:44

        You know? And fighting is such a, uh, you know, it comes from a very primitive portion of the brain, right? Is, uh, but a large portion of the brain nonetheless. (laughs)

    22. DFDr. Duncan French1:11:52

        But I think that's another skill is that switch.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:54

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DFDr. Duncan French1:11:54

        You know? And, and again, that's the recoverability piece, right? Like, you cannot be type A or you cannot be like supercharged 24 hours a day because you're going to just fry your system, right? And I think that's something else where we're really trying to manage this whole process, be it through nutritional interventions, be it through education around sleep, be it through, um, training prog- program management, um, be it through psychological interventions. You know, you could look at fighters and say like, "These guys are go." Like they're red alert and they, they'll run through a brick wall. But actually, again, their ability to turn it on and off means that they can do what they do. You know, they can bring it down and, and be very normal, very, (laughs) very polite, very, you know, uh, accommodating.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:37

        Maybe even better than most people because, you know, one of the reasons

17. 1:12:40 – 1:14:30

    Voluntarily Switching Between Different States of Arousal

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:40

       I'm obsessed with p- with human performance and high performance and f- people like fighters and ex- you know, elite military or, uh, or even bodybuilders for that matter, is that they, they experiment.

    2. DFDr. Duncan French1:12:50

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:51

       They find the outer limits of what's possible, but one of the things that they have discovered as you're describing is this ability to toggle between high alert states and calm states. Most typical people can't do this. They see something that upsets them on the internet or something on the news or some external event pressures down on them and they're stressed for many, many days and weeks and sometimes it goes pathological, right? And, and this, I don't say this as a criticism, it's just that most, uh, most human beings within our species, most members of our species never learn to-...to either flip the switch or to just voluntarily toggle between states. I think athletes learn how to do that extremely well. And, um, it sounds like MMA fighters do that even better than perhaps many other athletes.

    4. DFDr. Duncan French1:13:35

       I mean, yeah. The, there's the odd one or two that would struggle with, but I think in terms of that chronic exposure, w- we, we see, um, that coming from challenges around, you know, cyclical weight cutting and metabolic disruption and metabolic injury, not necessarily from the psychological drive. Um, you know, they, they do h- they do understand that this is a job for them, um, and the time on the mats, you know, most of them can, can turn it off a little bit and, and downgrade things when they're off the mats. It's, it's, uh, it's impressive to see, because again, like, as, as a layman just looking in, at, at the fight game, you think, you know, it's going to be crazy chaotic, 100 miles an hour every hour of every day, but, um, that's not, that's clearly not the case. They, they, they, uh, they manage their energy and their efforts pretty well.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:20

       Which is a little bit like science, although maybe scientists could take a lesson from-

    6. DFDr. Duncan French1:14:23

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:23

       ... them.

    8. DFDr. Duncan French1:14:23

       It's that evidence-based practice-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:25

       That's right. (laughs)

    10. DFDr. Duncan French1:14:25

        ... or practice-based evidence, right?

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:26

        No, I like that.

    12. DFDr. Duncan French1:14:27

        (laughs)

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:27

        That's good. Um, a couple more questions. I,

18. 1:14:30 – 1:20:12

    Heat, Getting Better at Sweating, Heat Shock Proteins, Sauna

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:30

       I can't help myself. I know we talked about temperature earlier, uh, when we discussed cold, but I, I can't help myself. I have to ask you about heat, because earlier we were having a, a conversation about heat adaptation, about how long does it take for, uh, the human body or athlete or typical person that's maybe exploring sauna or things of that sort to learn to be a better sweater.

    2. DFDr. Duncan French1:14:52

       Right.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:52

       It sounds like something m- n- none of us would want to do. We all want to stay cool, calm, and collected. But one of the reasons to deliberately expose oneself to heat is for things like growth hormone release, etc. We can talk about this. But, um, a couple questions. One, is heat exposure stress in the same way that the ice bath or cold exposure is stress? The second one is, is there any difference there that's important? And the other one is, how does one get better at heat adaptation? Or at least, what are you doing with the fighters to get them better at dealing with heat? How long does that take? So, the first question, just, um, 'cause I threw three questions at you-

Episode duration: 1:30:05