How to Find & Be a Great Romantic Partner | Lori Gottlieb

1. 0:00 – 2:01

   Dr. Lori Gottlieb

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Lori Gottlieb. Lori Gottlieb is a psychotherapist and best-selling author, and is considered one of the world's leading experts on relationships, how to find relationships, how to be in relationships effectively, how to leave relationships if necessary, how to grieve them after they're gone, and how to renew them, all from the perspective of looking inward at ourselves, and the stories about ourselves and others that we tell ourselves that can lead us to what we want and what's best for us, or that lead us away from those things. During today's episode, we discuss how the feelings we experience when we're with certain people are the absolute best guide of how poorly or how well those people are suited for us as partners, and the ways in which we miss key signals, both good and bad, in relationships by not paying attention to how we feel. Lori explains how to better our communication skills, how to determine if somebody's critique of us is valid or not, that certainly is important for everybody, and how texting and technology has changed relationships, and how to navigate all of that by leaning into our own sense of agency, the things that we can control. And last but not least, Lori explains how we can all access more vitality and enjoyment of life, and how so many people don't allow themselves to do that because the familiarity of their present circumstances overrides their willingness to move forward. This was a really eye-opening episode, and one that I'm certain will help you better understand yourself and what your needs really are and how you can be happier in or out of a relationship. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Lori Gottlieb.

2. 2:01 – 6:15

   Patient & First Question; Talked Out of Feelings

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:01

      Lori Gottlieb, welcome.

   2. LGLori Gottlieb2:03

      Thank you. Great to be here.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman2:05

      What's the first thing you ask a patient when you're meeting them for the first time?

   4. LGLori Gottlieb2:10

      Usually, it's something like, "Tell me what's going on. Tell me why you're here. Tell me what made you decide to come in."

   5. AHAndrew Huberman2:18

      And are you listening both to the content of their words and their tone, their physicality?

   6. LGLori Gottlieb2:24

      Everything.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman2:24

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LGLori Gottlieb2:25

      Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so interesting 'cause sometimes people will say, "I'm here because of," and they'll talk about something very difficult, but they're smiling through it.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman2:32

      Hm.

   10. LGLori Gottlieb2:33

       Um, you know, I think it's very nerve-wracking to come in and see a therapist, and you don't know this person, and you're about to share some very personal information that maybe you haven't told anyone in this way. And so, you wanna make somebody comfortable. You wanna make sure that, you know, you feel like they are not being rushed to share something that they're not ready to share. So, it's just the process. I think it's a very human interaction. Um, you know, therapy, to me, is not, like, expert, and this other person, and then it feels very asymmetrical. Of course, we're using our training, and that's why they're coming to us, but I feel like it's very much a human-to-human interchange.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman3:17

       Do you think, because I've heard, but I don't know if it's true, do you think that some people, um, tend to create a lot of internal and perhaps external narrative about what happened, who they are, um, how people are in the world, how they're not in the world, you know, a lot of, a lot of words to their experience, either spoken or internally, versus people who, um, maybe experience life a little bit differently? Uh, once, somebody said in a comment on Instagram, and I still think about this, um, they said, "I don't think in words. I think in feels." And my first reaction was like, yeah, I'm from Northern California, and people talk that way sometimes. So, I thought, "That's interesting." Maybe there are a lot of people who, um, for whom language isn't the primary mode of understanding what's going on around them.

   12. LGLori Gottlieb4:12

       I think that as humans, we try to make sense of our feelings through stories, that we tell ourself a story about why we're feeling a certain way. And sometimes, we aren't that skilled because nobody taught us this, to access our feelings. And that happens because kids are often talked out of their feelings. So, when you're young, for example, and say you say to your parent, um, "I'm really worried about this," and your parent will say, "Oh, don't worry about that. That's nothing to worry about," or, "I'm really mad about this. You're so sensitive," right? Or, because parents are really uncomfortable when their kids are feeling sad because they feel like it's my responsibility to make sure they're not sad, which is not your responsibility as a parent. You're there to sit with your child and be present for them. So, if your child says, "I'm really sad that so-and-so sat with so-and-so at lunch today," and you know, the parent will say, "Well, here's what you can do," or, "That's terrible," or, right? Instead of like, "Oh, tell me more." And I think that, as a parent, or even as a partner, when your, when your partner comes to you or your friend comes to you or a family member comes to you and tells you something, often what we do is we try to talk them out of the feeling that they're having or help them get rid of the feeling 'cause we think it's a negative feeling, when feelings are all positive because they're like a compass. They tell us what direction to go in, if we can access them. So, when you say to someone, "Tell me more," then the kid might say, "Well, yeah, it was really hard," and then they'll talk about maybe, like, why the person might have sat at a different table or what might have happened. And we really do have a lot of answers inside if we listen to the feelings, but we're talked out of the feelings, and then we grow up thinking, "If I'm feeling sad or angry or anxious, then, you know, I need to get rid of the feeling," as opposed to, "I need to use that feeling."And so instead, what we do is we come up with all these stories like the problem is out there, as opposed to, "Oh, I have some really good information in here."

3. 6:15 – 10:04

   Self-Regulation vs Co-Regulation, Tool: Pause & Perspective

   1. LGLori Gottlieb6:15

   2. AHAndrew Huberman6:15

      I had a now ex-girlfriend, we're still on great terms, who, uh, we had an agreement that served us super well, and, uh, that I try and apply going forward, which is, um, nobody tries to shift anyone else.

   3. LGLori Gottlieb6:28

      Hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman6:30

      In my mind, I was the one that came up with that, but I think in reality, she was the one that came up with it. (laughs)

   5. LGLori Gottlieb6:35

      (laughs)

   6. AHAndrew Huberman6:35

      Because now I'm like, there's no way I would've come up with that. But I think it came about through a couple different interactions where I would get off work and, and sometimes like the initial 20 minutes of interacting was much more difficult than it needed to be. And then I remember we just came up with this plan where we just decide no one's going to shift the other person unless they're like, "Shift me, please." You know? Like, "Help me relax," or, "Help me, uh, get excited about this," which we would never do, right?

   7. LGLori Gottlieb7:01

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman7:01

      So like when, so a policy of not trying to shift anybody, um, or somebody trying to shift our emotions, I think felt really liberating.

   9. LGLori Gottlieb7:10

      Right. I think what you're talking about is self-regulation versus co-regulation. So self-regulation is when you're having some kind of internal experience, you have choices. Like, I'm really angry about this. Okay, how do I self-regulate? Not to ignore the anger 'cause the anger is telling me that maybe a boundary was broken or maybe somebody's treating me in a way that I don't wanna be treated, or maybe I'm upset with myself for the way that I acted. So it's good information, but then what do you do with it? Can you self-regulate? Can you find ways to look at the anger without screaming, yelling, um, self-sabotaging, whatever people do that's not a productive use of their anger or your anxiety or your sadness. Um, co-regulation is important though, um, and that's something that you see, again, you can see it with parent-child, where if the parent can stay calm when the child is not calm, that helps the child to learn to self-regulate. And with a partner, like say you had a really hard day at work and you come home and you're just not in a good mood, it's not your partner's responsibility to help you through that. You need to self-regulate. But it sure helps if your partner is regulated and they can help co-regulate you just because they happen to be regulated. You, you want two adults in the room, or at least one adult in the room. If you have two children in the room, like grown children, adults, um, then everybody gets dysregulated. So it's really important that at least one person is being the adult in the room and one person is regulated. If both people, like you're in an argument, both people are dysregulated, nothing good is gonna come from that.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman8:46

       In which case, it's the best option to just pause it until somebody returns to adulthood.

   11. LGLori Gottlieb8:52

       Yes. And that happens so often. It's such an easy fix for couples because sometimes they, they think we have to deal with this right now, and it feels urgent to deal with it right now because I feel hurt right now, or, I can't believe you said that, or, we need to, you know, resolve this right now. That can be the worst possible thing. So it's not like, let's forget about it. It's I'm gonna go take a walk, or I'm gonna go to the gym, or I'm gonna go, you know, read for a few minutes, or I'm gonna go relax, whatever that is, and then let's talk in an hour about it, or let's talk tonight, right? And you can stay connected during that time. So what are you gonna do in the intervening time if you're just making up stories about the other person? They're insensitive, they don't care about me, they don't prioritize me, then that's not helpful. But in that intervening time, if you can say, if I were telling this story from the other person's perspective, what would their version of this story be? And is there a nugget of overlap? And there, is there a nugget of something that feels really genuine to me that I can understand and even have compassion for? And that's gonna help you come back when you have the conversation. But you have to be regulated.

4. 10:04 – 12:36

   Sponsors: Helix Sleep & BetterHelp

   1. LGLori Gottlieb10:04

   2. AHAndrew Huberman10:04

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz which will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night? Things of that sort. Now, maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress. I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. So much so that when I travel and I'm not on my Dusk mattress, I really miss it, and when I get home, I just find that I sleep so much better because of that mattress. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you. Right now, Helix is giving up to 20% off on all mattress orders. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school. But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance. And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and to all sorts of goals. BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy. Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.One thing that I've observed, I don't have any formal data on this, is that some of the happiest

5. 12:36 – 17:13

   Relationships, Childhood & Unfinished Business

   1. AHAndrew Huberman12:36

      couples I know-

   2. LGLori Gottlieb12:37

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman12:37

      ... are couples where I would refer to one person in the relationship as more emotive and expressive, and the other person as a little bit on the spectrum. And my observation is that part of the reason those couples seem so harmonious is that the little things don't seem to bother the person on the spectrum 'cause they don't register them.

   4. LGLori Gottlieb13:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman13:01

      They don't get entangled in the other person's, um, downs or- or ups, which I guess, um, could be problematic in theory, but just seems like they get along really well because, and I won't, you know, kind of stereotype the labels, but these- these couples that I know, it does happen to be the male who is, um, a little bit on the spectrum, and the woman who's a little more emotive, and it just seems like there's so much harmony there. And when I talk to him, I'm generally, uh, closer to the- the man in the relationship, uh, although not always. Um, they say like, "Yeah," like, you know, "It doesn't bother me there's, I just like will listen or if there's something to, a request, I'll respond to the request." There- there isn't this entanglement of-

   6. LGLori Gottlieb13:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman13:51

      ... she's upset, so I like have to respond, or I'm like, or this is really painful to listen to. It's more, um, sort of like, uh, kind of matter-of-fact.

   8. LGLori Gottlieb13:59

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman14:00

      And, um, I just think it's an interesting dynamic. It's obviously not one that people can pre-program themselves for, uh, but I do think it's an interesting dynamic, as opposed to what you're describing where, um, emotions can kind of ratchet together like gears, and that can be wonderful when people are in, you know, ecstatic states or happy or there's like the banter-

   10. LGLori Gottlieb14:21

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman14:22

       ... of certain couples that are-

   12. LGLori Gottlieb14:23

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman14:23

       ... seem pretty emotive is something I'm also familiar with observing, but those couples also seem like more volatile, like when- when somebody's upset, the other person gets upset that they're up, and- and it just starts to, um, deteriorate pretty quickly.

   14. LGLori Gottlieb14:36

       Yeah. You don't want two highly reactive people to be together. Um, you also, I think, need to think about there's a saying, "We marry our unfinished business," right? So let's say that there's somebody who had a parent who was very kind of avoidant or withdrawn. That person, if they haven't processed that, will be drawn to the partner who is more avoidant, but not because it feels good, but because it's familiar. And so sometimes in the kind of couple that you're describing, and I don't know the experience of your friends, but I've seen a lot of couples where it looks like that would be a good match 'cause one person is, you know, sort of more in the emotional sphere and one person is less so. Um, but sometimes what that is is one person gets very lonely because they're not really getting that kind of emotional interaction that they want, so it can be a solution for some people because they don't know how to be with a different kind of person, but I also feel like, um, you wanna make sure that you have figured out your unfinished business, that you're not just, you don't just have radar for the kind of person who hurt you. So, what often happens is people haven't processed whatever it was that they wanted more of or less of when they were growing up, and then they go out into the world, and they're looking for a partner, and they literally have radar for a person who is exactly like the person who hurt them, but doesn't look like that. So it's like, "I'm going to choose someone who is the opposite of the parent who hurt me," and then you find this person, and after you get to know them a little bit, you're like, "Wow, that person drinks a lot too. I didn't realize that." Or, "That person is really withholding too. I didn't see that at first." Or, "That person yells a lot. I didn't notice that at first." And you're like, "How did I get into this exact situation that hurt me (laughs) as a child?" And that's because your unconscious is saying, "You look familiar. Come closer." Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to win, we're trying to master a situation where we felt helpless as a child. We couldn't control the situation with our parents when we were growing up, and now we think, again, this is completely outside of our awareness, "I'm going to win this time. I'm going to master this. I'm going to get love from that kind of person," and it doesn't work out. So, I think that you really wanna make sure that you are choosing someone for healthy reasons and not because there's some unfinished business that you're trying to work out with this person who is not going to meet your needs.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman17:08

       To go a little bit further into this idea, which, by the way, I fully subscribe to,

6. 17:13 – 26:35

   Unconscious Mind, Hurtful Parent & Familiarity, Role of Therapy

   1. AHAndrew Huberman17:13

      um, based on your explanation of this and, um, my belief that our unconscious mind is driving a lot of our choices-

   2. LGLori Gottlieb17:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman17:21

      ... my understanding is that what you just described doesn't adhere to mom/dad, male/female, um, compartmentalization. Uh, and what I mean by that is that I think a lot of people will hear what you just said and assume, "Okay, if my dad har- hurt me in the following ways, then..." Uh, and let's say it's a woman-

   4. LGLori Gottlieb17:45

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman17:45

      ... and she said, "You know, my dad hurt me in the following ways. I mean, he was a drinker, withdrawn, or he was violent," or whatever, then, uh, that woman will seek out men that mimic that. Here, I'm assuming heterosexual relationship. But if her mother was the one that h- was the drinker, violent, and/or withdrawn, and she's heterosexual, my understanding is based on the dynamics that you described, if, she will find those traits in a man-

   6. LGLori Gottlieb18:13

      Yes.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman18:13

      ... because she's heterosexual, she's seeking men for romantic partners, and I think that's very important. I think that sometimes we put the- the mom/dad, um, labels on top of the- the, uh, attraction to, again, staying in the heterosexual framework here, um, the opposite sex framework, and then people say, "Well, why is it that this woman always seeks out these, like, what end up being really terrible guys? Like, she had such a great dad-"

   8. LGLori Gottlieb18:40

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman18:40

      "... but she had a dreadful mom."

   10. LGLori Gottlieb18:41

       That is absolutely correct-

   11. AHAndrew Huberman18:43

       Okay.

   12. LGLori Gottlieb18:43

       ... and I think it's so interesting because I think that people think that having...... one parent that gave you what you needed is protective. And in some ways, it is. But the thing that hurts is the thing that gets the most attention inside of our bodies. So, we don't necessarily think it, but we felt it, we internalized it. It lives inside of us. And so, yes, having a good parent, one of the two, if you have two parents, one of the two is important. But it's interesting that it's not like we seek out the person that, like, the good parent always. Sometimes, again, because we're trying to work something out, we seek out someone like the parent who really hurt us.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman19:24

       So, it's such a flaw in our wiring.

   14. LGLori Gottlieb19:26

       Well, I mean, I think that's where therapy is really helpful.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman19:30

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LGLori Gottlieb19:30

       I think that's where, you know, people are like, "Well, what is therapy really for?" And I think it's really about, what are the things that are outside of your awareness, but that are sort of driving the car? So, it's like we think we're the driver of our own car, but often, like, someone else is driving the car and we don't realize it, and we think, "Why does this keep happening?" Or- or, you know, "What is happening in my life that I'm not getting what I want?" In, you know, whatever dimension it is, whether it's professionally or personally. And so often, it's because there's some force that you are acting out, that you don't even realize. And I think the role of therapy is to kind of hold up a mirror to people and help them to see something about themselves that they haven't been willing or able to see.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman20:12

       You said that, um, people will pick, um, the person who's exactly wrong for them, who feels exactly right-

   18. LGLori Gottlieb20:20

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman20:20

       ... at least at first. Um, that it has this kind of, um, come here, uh, uh, this summoning, uh, aspect to it. Like, we feel drawn to it, it feels drawn to us. I mean, that's how relationships start, after all-

   20. LGLori Gottlieb20:33

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman20:33

       ... one would hope. Um, but in this case, um, you said that people come to find that that person is exact- uh, harbors some of the exact same traits, I'm calling them that, behaviors, traits-

   22. LGLori Gottlieb20:46

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman20:46

       ... or, you know, whatever it is, that hurt them-

   24. LGLori Gottlieb20:49

       Mm-hmm.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman20:50

       ... in- in the context of their, uh, child-parent relationship. Why do you think, um, initially, it presents as the opposite?

   26. LGLori Gottlieb20:59

       I think it's about the- the familiarity, that there's something so visceral about, this feels like childhood, and even if childhood was not optimal or even miserable, it still feels familiar. And humans, in general, are very afraid of uncertainty. They're very afraid of the unfamiliar. I remember when- when I was in therapy, my therapist said to me, "You know, you remind me of this cartoon, and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out. But on the right and the left, it's open. No bars." Right? So, why do we stay in this prison? Why don't we walk? Why don't we even see that it's open, and why don't we walk around the bars? And it's because, with freedom comes responsibility and uncertainty. We don't know what's out... We know what it's like to be in prison. That's- that's been our experience. So, that feels comfortable, even though we say we desperately want to get out. And then, if we choose the uncertain path, we're responsible for our lives now. We can't blame it on mom or dad or this situation or that situation. I'm not saying those situations weren't impactful. Of course they were. But we have choices as an adult. We have freedom as an adult that we didn't have as a child, and sometimes it's really hard for us to say, "I'm going to have to be responsible for my life." That's terrifying. Because we feel like we don't have the tools to do that. We feel like, again, the uncertainty, we'd rather have the certainty of like, "I'll... I know what it's like in prison, at least I'm... I know what that's like, and I know..." You know, the devil you know. And that's not, again, that's outside of our awareness.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman22:32

       I think what you're describing is a, um, is a pervasive feature of being human. Uh, if I may, uh, there's this, uh, kid, he's now a young adult, but, um, who I've watched grow up from a very young age, who, uh, got into college, he was doing really well, then he fell in love. He made the decision to leave school. The relationship ended, and I was talking to him recently, and he's kind of in this kind of dizzying spin of, like, thinking about how great things were, how he blew it, and he's young. I'm like, "Listen, you're good." Like, he- he didn't drop out. He just withdrew. He can go back and-

   28. LGLori Gottlieb23:08

       Mm-hmm.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman23:08

       ... you know, he'll find another relationship. But, um, you know, I, and I empathize with him, but, um, I passed something along to him that was actually discussed on a, uh, by a former guest on this podcast, Josh Waitzkin, who is a former Child Chess Prodigy. He's gone on to do a number of things, and he said exactly what you're saying, which is in a different context. He said, um, "We get so attached to our current identity and our past identity in trying to resolve those, that we're more willing to stay in that state of discomfort than we are to step into a path of potential success."

   30. LGLori Gottlieb23:45

       Right.
7. 26:35 – 36:27

   Excitement & Chaos, Cherophobia; Storytelling, First Date & Sparks?

   1. AHAndrew Huberman26:36

      as I've gotten older, I'm a- I'll be 50 later this year, um, been looking forward to that, I feel great, but, um-

   2. LGLori Gottlieb26:43

      (laughs)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman26:44

      ... some of the things that I assumed for so many years, like slow is low. Like when things are-

   4. LGLori Gottlieb26:51

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman26:51

      ... really slow, like it w- it... For many years, it felt kind of depressive. Now, I love slow, mellow. Like, peace is the thing that I'm just I savor so much. But for so many years, I think what you're describing, that sort of activation state-

   6. LGLori Gottlieb27:07

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman27:07

      ... of excitement.

   8. LGLori Gottlieb27:08

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman27:08

      That was a pretty wild youth, and then, you know, I mean, I like adventure, and I've taken on at times dangerous adventures that I shouldn't have. Lived, told myself I wouldn't do them again, picked a different adventure. But even in, like, my scientific career or podcasting, the things that feel at times like a bit of a tightrope walk-

   10. LGLori Gottlieb27:26

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman27:26

       ... just given the number of variables that I can't control just by virtue of what they are, and the challenge of, like, long cycles of trying to publish pe- like, the, the, they're kind of scary at some level. It's your profession after all. But I did the same thing in a lot of my re- relationships. L- lovely people in some cases, some cases not, but in most cases, uh, fortunately for me, um, lovely people. But, but there was this sense that, like, um, if something felt like a little bit of an upstate, kind of like a bit more of autonomic arousal or a lot more autonomic arousal, that it had this, um, kind of magnetic quality to it. Whereas I think, um, and I'm not joking or lying here, I think owning a bulldog taught me how to really savor relaxing. Uh, I'm not saying this just to highlight Costello again. I mean, I observed his relationship to the world and the, the bulldog's contract with its owner is, is an amazing one that I think I learned a lot from. The contract is, "I will die for you. I will literally give up my life to protect you, Andrew, but if that's not on the line, I'm not gonna do anything."

   12. LGLori Gottlieb28:34

       Yeah. (laughs)

   13. AHAndrew Huberman28:35

       "We're just gonna sit here and enjoy the sunshine."

   14. LGLori Gottlieb28:37

       Right.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman28:37

       "We're just gonna breathe, and we're going to eat food."

   16. LGLori Gottlieb28:40

       Right.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman28:40

       "Friends are coming over, and I'll get excited." And, you know, and, and I'm not, uh, I'm not trying to make too much of this. I, I really noticed. I was like, "Wow, he needs so little to be blissful."

   18. LGLori Gottlieb28:50

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman28:51

       And yet I know that if, like, push came to shove, like, he's on my side. We've got each other's backs.

   20. LGLori Gottlieb28:56

       Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman28:57

       As opposed to, let's talk about a more human contract of, like, this picture or story of a, of a couple that they have about themselves. Ride or die is something people say a lot nowadays. It's a beautiful concept, right? Loyalty, like you're in it together no matter what, but there's a calm version of that-

   22. LGLori Gottlieb29:14

       Yes.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman29:14

       ... like ride or die, and then there's, like, ride or die, like, like, "We'll take on anything. We'll, we'll bring in chaos. We'll be the chaos, and we just don't quit."

   24. LGLori Gottlieb29:23

       Mm-hmm.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman29:23

       Very different activation states.

   26. LGLori Gottlieb29:25

       Oh, absolutely.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman29:26

       A- and it took me 49 years to learn this. I see it in professional relationships, too. People want the exciting thing, the big build, and then they're like, it's the chaos of like, "Oh, this founder left, and this person..." It's like, well, of course, it started in drama. It's gonna end in drama. Does this... some of this resonate?

   28. LGLori Gottlieb29:43

       Yeah, absolutely. I mean, two things. One is that there's this concept of cherophobia, which is, um, kind of fear of joy. And so, so many people, um, because they grew up in a way where whenever... Let's say the parent was reliable, um, in moments, right? Like at certain times, and then they were unreliable, or they were really calm, but then they would blow up, and you never knew what was gonna happen. It was like you were walking on eggshells the whole time, right? So, you're very afraid of anything that goes well. You think the other shoe is going to drop, like at any moment. So you're, you're... You don't want to pick something that... and again, again, outside of your awareness. Like, you don't pick the calm partner 'cause it feels too good. Like, something's gonna go wrong, so I'll pick the volatile partner because I'm, I'm prepared. I'm prepared for that level of volatility, right? And so people sabotage all the time, whether it's about a job or a partner or, you know, whatever they want. They think, "I am not going to go there because it's not safe to feel joy."...because something will go wrong and I will be crushed, and it will be harder to have the experience of joy and to have it crushed than to never feel the joy. So, there was a woman that I wrote about in my book who, she just, she wouldn't let herself feel any joy or get excited about a partner or excited about... She wanted to be an artist and, and doing her art and things were going really well, and then she'd, she'd self-sabotage. R- you know, it's like I would... You can't fire me, I quit, right?

   29. AHAndrew Huberman31:13

       Yeah.

   30. LGLori Gottlieb31:13

       It's like, I'm going to create the bad thing to happen to myself because if it happens from the universe, it's gonna feel even worse. So, I think we need to kind of really be aware, there are lots of people out there who are terrified of good things happening, even though they say they desperately want good things to happen, and so they make bad things happen or they make sure good things don't happen to them because it feels so uncomfortable to sit in that space of, the other shoe's gonna drop at any moment and I can't deal with that. But the other thing I wanna say about this, this slow burn type of thing is, there was a study that was done that I wrote about in one of my books where they did a longitudinal study and they looked at people over 20 years, and they followed up with them every five years from the first date to where they are later. And they had them, instead of, like, historically saying, you know, when you ask people in relationships and you say, "What was it like when you first met?" And they'll tell you some story, but it's retrospective. It's not like you weren't there at the time. You're sort of telling it through the lens of where you are now. What was great about this study was people wrote down at the time, here's what, here's how I feel. So, people who were, let's say, got married and were happy would say, almost unilaterally, like, "There was so much chemistry. We had such a good time on the first date. It was amazing." Whereas at the time, they might have said, like, "Yeah, it was okay. Maybe I'll see this person again. Fine." Like, no butterflies or, you know, whatever. But that's not the story they're telling themselves about it. Now, people who either are unhappily together or no longer together would say, "Yeah, there was nothing there. There was no chemistry. I didn't really like the person." But at the time they might have said, like, "Wow, I'm really interested in this person. It was like, we had so much chemistry." So, we change our stories based on our present experience, and we think we're telling an accurate version of what actually happened. And the reason I bring this up is because since people who are sort of happy couples tell these stories to other people, we think in our culture that if you go on a first date and you don't have that immediate spark, that it's not worth it. Like, don't go on a second date. And what happens is sometimes a lot of the time when you have that immediate spark, it doesn't mean what you think it means. It's not that a spark is bad. It means that you really need to see what it means. And it's not that not having a spark is bad. If you go on a date and you feel like I... It was a, like, nice conversation, I had a good enough time, go spend another hour with this person. Just go on another date with them and see what happens. But we don't do that because we have this illusion that you can just go back on an app or there's so many people out there. And so we try to optimize as opposed to saying, "What would it be like? I had a, I had... I felt good when I was with this person. I didn't feel that rush, but I felt pretty good. So I think I'll go see what that's like again." And that should be our bar. Not like, "Do I feel this rush? Do I feel like this is amazing?" But, "Did I have a good enough time? Sure. Let me go see what that's like."
8. 36:27 – 47:27

   Tool: Awareness of Death & Living Fully; Vitality; Fear vs Acceptance

   1. AHAndrew Huberman36:27

      dimension of, um, why people are so much more willing to stay in a state that doesn't feel good versus risk, um, the unknown.And the opportunity to win (laughs) in relationship, in-

   2. LGLori Gottlieb36:45

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman36:45

      ... in life, in career, et cetera, 'cause I do, I do believe that. Uh, I happen to be reading... It's a hard book, a genuinely difficult book, but I'm really enjoying it. Um, I'm reading Ernst Becker's The Denial of Death.

   4. LGLori Gottlieb36:58

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman36:58

      Uh, highly recommend it to everyone. Won a Pulitzer, after all. You don't need my endorsement. And, you know, I mean, the, the central thesis of the book, right, is that we're a weird species because we understand that we're going to die at some point. We're all gonna die. And that the, that humans go through these very complicated gymnastics related to ego and symbols, and we create notions of meaning and story to try and distract us, basically-

   6. LGLori Gottlieb37:23

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman37:23

      ... from this really scary reality. It's terrifying, right? It's terrifying. Nobody really understands or knows what happens next. We can't be sure. And I have this idea in mind, as you're telling me, that indeed people are willing to stay in a set of circumstances that don't work for them, even ruminating on the mistakes that got them there for a very long time, willingly, when all they need to do is make some new choices that they're fully capable of making. And I wonder whether or not it's because they're alive now, they know they're s- quote, unquote "safe" now. Like, they're not dead. I d- I mean, the number of people I know who stayed in circumstances that didn't work for them for so long-

   8. LGLori Gottlieb38:04

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman38:04

      ... professionally, relationally, it's like, how do they do that? And, uh, I understand sometimes there's kids, sometimes there's financial issues, but there's... It, it's always the case that, um, they've eventually gotten out, thank goodness. And they always say, "I wish I'd, I had done it so much earlier."

   10. LGLori Gottlieb38:20

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman38:21

       And I wonder whether or not as a, as a biological and psychological being, we, we do this because we're thinking, "Well, I'm alive now. I'm breathing now. I'm," quote, unquote, "'safe' now. But I don't know what's gonna happen if I make this other choice." Like, it defies logic, but at, at the, at the same time, if one just assumes that our, like, our biggest fear, deep down in our unconscious, is fear of death, we'll pretty much stay anywhere where we're continuing to be alive and not f- like, in the moment of fearing death.

   12. LGLori Gottlieb38:50

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman38:51

       Sorry to get a little philosophical here, but-

   14. LGLori Gottlieb38:53

       No, I love this.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman38:53

       ... but I, I think this unconscious thing where we make... a lot has been made of it. The word means, okay, well, we don't... it's happening, but we don't know it's happening. But, like, what are we really afraid of?

   16. LGLori Gottlieb39:01

       Right.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman39:01

       And I, I do think ultimately we're all just really afraid of death.

   18. LGLori Gottlieb39:04

       I don't think we're afraid of death. I think we're afraid of not having lived. So, what I mean by that is I think we deny death. We're all sort of death deniers. Like, we know it's out there somewhere, but we don't know when or how it's going to happen. And so we just pretend because there's no real, no pun intended, but deadline-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman39:21

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LGLori Gottlieb39:22

       ... right? And so we just think sort of... We know intellectually we don't have forever, but we kind of think we do. And so when you think about sort of the stages of psychosocial development, you know, you start with, um, you know, these, these conflicts that you have to work through at every stage of life, and sort of the, the one where your... sort of the last stage is integrity versus despair. So integrity is if you have lived a life where you don't have a lot of regret, you feel like you lived the kind of life that you wanted, you accomplished the things that you wanted to accomplish, for the most part, whether that's relationally, professionally, some combination there, um, you, you have this sense of integrity at the end of your life. If you didn't, you have this sense of despair. People who work through that and have integrity are not afraid of death. The people who are in despair are very afraid of death because they have so many regrets and they can't go back. You don't get a redo. And so I like to, in psychotherapy, really k- remind people that they need to keep death awareness sitting on one shoulder. Not to be morbid, but to actually make you live more fully. If you are aware of death, if you really look death right in the eye, you have more intentionality when you wake up every day. You say, "I don't have forever." So it's not like, "Some time in the future, I might die." It's like, "You could die today, tomorrow." You... you know, anything could happen. Um, and, and I think... You know, when I... So I write about this in my book, where I, I was seeing this woman who was in her early 30s, and she was diagnosed with cancer, and everyone thought she was gonna be fine, and then there was this sort of rare recurrence, and, um, when she was newly married, and her whole life was, like, turned upside down. And she really made me, as the therapist, look death in the eye in that way. You know how, like, you wanna say something like... You know, she was talking about the things that people would say to her, because we all have this death denial, and they would say, "Did you get a second opinion?" As if, no, she's not gonna get a second opinion about whether she's gonna die, right? Um, you know, they'll say things like, "Well, these experimental treatments might work." You know, anything to deny the reality that she was going to die, and very soon. And nobody wanted to sit with her in that, and it was my job to do that. Even her husband had, had trouble sort of sitting with her in that in the beginning, right? Um, and, and there was this one moment, this beautiful moment between them that she came in and told me about where he was like, you know, um, doing something and trying to relax, and, and he was a great... like, incredibly supportive of her. And she came in and said, "Hey, there's this thing, and, and I, I read about this, and I wanna talk to you about this." And, and he said, like, "Can't we just have one night off from cancer?" And she said, "I don't get any nights off from cancer. There's no nights off." Right? And I understand both perspectives on that, but it brought up this beautiful conversation between them that really helped them to think about, how much do we let death in, and how much do we let sort of life or what- whatever's left in, and how do we let death inform the aliveness that we still have?So I think it's really important that, you know, when... Why do people stay in relationships too long? Why do they stay in jobs too long? Why do they make choices that are not serving them and that they will later regret? It's because they are f- in full-blown death denial.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman42:58

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LGLori Gottlieb42:58

       And I think when people really acknowledge their mortality, um, it's one of the most healthy, invigorating things that they can bring into their lives. When people say, "What is the opposite of depression?" it's not happiness, it's vitality.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman43:14

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LGLori Gottlieb43:14

       And where do we get vitality? From knowing that we have a limited time here, and we get to choose how we spend it.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman43:22

       I agree 100%. Um, this is something I think about, uh, constantly, although I've never looked at it through the lens that you just presented it, and I, I love, uh, what I just learned from you, which is, um, that vitality is the, is the, the state, the state of, of being.

   26. LGLori Gottlieb43:42

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman43:42

       Uh, vitality is so key. I, um, I think about death, um, probably more than I should, um, because for a kid who wasn't from the inner city or in the military, I've just had a lot of friends die.

   28. LGLori Gottlieb43:54

       Mm.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman43:55

       A lot of suicides, a lot of drug stuff, unfortunately, and all three of my scientific advisors, suicide, cancer, cancer. I was very close with all of them, and, uh, only got... I got to say goodbye to the second one. That was a rough conversation. Anyone that's ever had a conversation with somebody where it's a goodbye conversation.

   30. LGLori Gottlieb44:11

       Mm-hmm.
9. 47:27 – 50:35

   Sponsors: AG1 & David Protein

   1. AHAndrew Huberman47:27

      a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was. I started taking it and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals, and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health. Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin. In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function. Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake, but there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients that are hard or impossible to get from Whole Foods. So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health and in turn brain and immune system health and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body. So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be, I always say AG1, because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health and performance. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman. For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before in this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production, and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get the free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.Today's episode is also brought to us by David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein, and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar. David protein bars also taste amazing. Even the texture is amazing. My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor. Basically, I like all the flavors a lot. They're all incredibly delicious. In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day. I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them. With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories. I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling. They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories. If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman. There's so much to go into here. Um, this thing about vitality

10. 50:35 – 54:50

    Activate vs Energize; Tool: Technology, Numbness & Overwhelm

    1. AHAndrew Huberman50:35

       is, is so key. A friend recently said to me something, he, I was talking about how, "Gosh, there's, like, these certain interactions in life that are, like, ugh, I feel like they, like, pull me in and I don't like them, and then it just, like, really takes away from what I know I should be doing, and..." But, um, and he said, "You know, you have to do things that energize you."

    2. LGLori Gottlieb50:59

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman51:00

       And immediately I thought, "Yes, and be very careful about the things that activate us."

    4. LGLori Gottlieb51:06

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman51:06

       Like, there's this difference between activation and being, being activated versus being energized.

    6. LGLori Gottlieb51:10

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman51:10

       I mean, it's a little bit semantic, right? But I feel like something that energizes me is, like, I love cephalopods. I used to have cuttlefish in my lab. I, I love octopuses, and, and by the way, it's octopuses, is the plural, folks.

    8. LGLori Gottlieb51:21

       (laughs)

    9. AHAndrew Huberman51:22

       Not octopi. We can go into a whole thing here, but I won't. Um, and, you know, looking at a, a, a, one of those guys or gals solving a puzzle, like, just energizes me in a way. I feel it in my body. It's energy that I can use for other things. It's, you know, it's, like, an inspiration for me.

    10. LGLori Gottlieb51:38

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman51:38

        Um, and there are many other things that do that. Uh, and then there are things that activate us, like where we, i- it's a, it's like a stress response. It's arousal, but-

    12. LGLori Gottlieb51:48

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman51:48

        ... it's negative valence.

    14. LGLori Gottlieb51:49

        Right. It's draining.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman51:51

        It's, like, pulling, and it's, and it's taking from these things that energize us. And I feel like it's, it's being able to notice those subtleties is hard in real time. And, um, but I feel like vitality i- is about the things that energize us.

    16. LGLori Gottlieb52:05

        Right, and so when you talk about that draining kind of activation, sometimes what we do when that happens is we go numb, right?

    17. AHAndrew Huberman52:12

        Mm-hmm.

    18. LGLori Gottlieb52:13

        So we don't want to feel anything. So, you know, there's this great expression that the, like, scrolling through the internet, when people mindlessly do that-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman52:19

        Mm-hmm.

    20. LGLori Gottlieb52:19

        ... it's, it's, a colleague of mine said, "It's the most effective non-prescription painkiller out there."

    21. AHAndrew Huberman52:23

        Can you repeat that? Because I want people to understand this.

    22. LGLori Gottlieb52:26

        So, yeah, so it's the most effective non-prescription painkiller out there, right? And so it's interesting when you think about numbness, because people think that numbness is the absence of feelings. But actually, numbness is a sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings. And so you're shutting down. So when people say, "Oh, I'm numb, I'm not feeling anything," actually, you're feeling so much and you're feeling flooded. You're feeling overwhelmed. And so we need to figure out, what are you feeling? So it's, it's actually a state of arousal that you, you're, you can't handle. And so then you're shutting down, but it's not that you're not having feelings. You're having so many feelings that you can't tolerate it. And that is not, you know, that is not the a- you know, people say, "Oh, I'm, I'm feeling numb. I'm feeling nothing." No, we need to figure out what is so overwhelming to your nervous system right now.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman53:21

        My gosh, that's s- so important. I hope people will listen to that 100 times, um, because, you know, we've heard so much about dopamine hits that I think people have lost sight of the fact that when you're online and you're just awash in all this information and videos, you're, you're not getting those hits. You're in the post-dopamine hit trough.

    24. LGLori Gottlieb53:41

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman53:41

        And we've been there for a long period of time, unless we, you know, unless we're, uh, judicious about our use of social media. An hour or s- three minutes or 15 min- whatever it is. But hours upon hours, there's n- y- there's no dopamine hit anymore. The peak is gone, you're in the trough, and that's why it feels kind of like, "How did all that time go by?"

    26. LGLori Gottlieb53:58

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman53:58

        The importance of this, uh, r- really can't be overstated. I, I think that... We hear so much about fight or flight-

    28. LGLori Gottlieb54:05

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman54:05

        ... and the stress response that I think people forget that another component of the stress response, of drama, of, of, you know, being awash in all this information-

    30. LGLori Gottlieb54:17

        Mm-hmm.
11. 54:50 – 1:00:51

    Numb or Calm?, Gender Stereotypes, Tool: Mentalizing

    1. LGLori Gottlieb54:50

       "I feel nothing. I don't know what this other person's so upset about," (laughs) right? And then when you really get into it, it's like this person's feeling all kinds of things. And it's really important that we understand, you know, when we are shut down versus when we are calm. Those are two very different states.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman55:10

       Could you, um, go into that a little bit further?

    3. LGLori Gottlieb55:12

       Yeah. Well, here's an example. So a couple comes in. Let's say it's a heterosexual couple, but it could be any couple. Often, it is the woman in the couple who will say something to her partner, like, "I just feel like I can't reach you. I feel like we're very disconnected. I want you to tell me how you feel." And because of our cultural stigma around men showing emotion-He has told himself, like, "Yeah, this bothers me or that bothers me, or I'm unhappy in this way, but I don't feel anything. I'm fine. Our marriage is good." So, he doesn't even understand why he's there, um, and he thinks he's there for her because she insisted on it. And so, when we finally get to maybe something that he's feeling and he finally does open up, it's so interesting because maybe he's sharing something very vulnerable or maybe he tears up a little bit. So there, you can tell. Like, your body will tell you what you're feeling, even if you aren't aware of it. You see, okay, there's some moisture there in his eyes, or maybe a tear falls, or maybe he actually starts crying. And her reaction and her whole reason for bringing him in was, you know, "I need you to open up to me. I want to feel connected to you. I want to understand your inner life more." Well, he does it and she then looks at me like a deer in headlights, like, "Oh, wow. I don't feel safe when he doesn't open up to me, but I also don't feel safe when he's being vulnerable in this way." And these are sort of gender stereotypes that we think we might not fall prey to, but we do. And so, it's so interesting that often men are the ones who seem sort of numb or calm, right, which are two, again, very different things in the relationship, but that's not really the case. It's that there's no room for him to express anything, so he has to kind of push everything down, probably, again, outside of his awareness, and then the couple feels disconnected and both of them are unhappy.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman57:08

       This idea that more words means more emotional?

    5. LGLori Gottlieb57:12

       (laughs)

    6. AHAndrew Huberman57:13

       I don't buy it.

    7. LGLori Gottlieb57:14

       Yeah. Exactly. Um, you know, it- it's interesting because men will come in, if I'm seeing them alone, and they'll often say something like, "I've never told anyone this before." And they literally mean, "I've never told anyone this before," because when men hang out, they're not... it's not the same sort of level of let's talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, right? Um, women will come in and say something like, "I've never told anyone this before except for my mother, my sister, my best friend."

    8. AHAndrew Huberman57:45

       (laughs)

    9. LGLori Gottlieb57:45

       Right? So they've told-

    10. AHAndrew Huberman57:45

        That's very true.

    11. LGLori Gottlieb57:45

        ... maybe one, two, or three people, but they feel like they haven't told anyone-

    12. AHAndrew Huberman57:49

        No big.

    13. LGLori Gottlieb57:49

        ... because for women, that's kind of not telling anyone.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman57:53

        Well, now you have people concerned. So if somebody... if a woman says, uh, to me, um, "I didn't tell anyone," that means she only told four people?

    15. LGLori Gottlieb58:00

        I don't mean secrets.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman58:01

        No, I'm just kidding.

    17. LGLori Gottlieb58:01

        I don't mean secrets.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman58:02

        (laughs) I was just kidding.

    19. LGLori Gottlieb58:02

        I mean, like, something about themselves-

    20. AHAndrew Huberman58:04

        Yeah. Right.

    21. LGLori Gottlieb58:04

        ... where they feel maybe hesitant to share that or they feel ashamed about that, um, or they're not sure about something. So, you can see that difference, but I also think it- it- it happens very early. So, I'm the mom of a boy. I mean, he's now a teenager, but it's interesting 'cause when... I- I didn't notice this til I was raising a boy. Uh, and I grew up with a brother, but I didn't notice it, that, um, when he... let's say he would, like, fall on the playground, right? And like, at like two or three years old, um, everybody would say to him or the boys around him, like, "Oh, it's fine. Brush it off. You're good. You're good." Right? Even if he was, like, in pain. And if a girl falls and she's in pain, at their age, they're like, "Oh, honey. Come here. How are you? Let's see. How are you feeling about this? Are you hurt? Are you okay?" So, very early on, they get these messages, like girls can talk about it. Boys can't talk about it. I remember when my- my son was... he was a basketball player in- in, um, in high school, and, um, he had... or this was in actually middle school, and in a practice, he got, you know, pushed down and his arm was kind of like not right. (laughs) And, you know, everyone was like, "Get back up. Just get... it's fine." Well, his arm is like kind of hanging off, right? (laughs) And so, you know, I was like, "No. I think he nee- needs to go to the ER," and of course, he was mortified that I said that, but in fact, he had broken his arm. So, that's the difference. If a girl had fallen down and her arm was like that, people would say like, "Oh, why don't you get it checked out?" So, what happens when these people get into adult relationships and this was what they were told about words and talking about things? Um, you really see those differences. But the other thing I want to say about words is women are brought up to think that whenever you have a feeling, you should share it, and my response to that is no. (laughs) So... and people say, "What do you mean? You're a therapist. What do you mean, don't share your feelings?" You don't need to share every thought or feeling that crosses your mind, unfiltered, with your partner. That is not healthy communication. Healthy communication means we have filters and we get to think about, and we call it mentalizing, how will what I'm about to say land on the other person? It's not like you're regurgitating all of your thoughts onto the other person, they're just supposed to deal with them. It's about relationally thinking, "How will this person respond to that?" Not like you have to take care of their feelings, but is it kind? Is it true? Is it useful? Does it meet those three criteria? And if it doesn't, why am I talking? Why am I sharing this?

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:46

        You said it, not me. Um,

12. 1:00:51 – 1:03:25

    Feelings, Projective Identification, Tool: Owning Your Feelings

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:51

       but I'll wager a theory.

    2. LGLori Gottlieb1:00:53

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:54

       That I think that some people, when they feel something, um, it... the- the kind of, uh, relief that comes from evacuating-

    4. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:04

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:04

       ... that feeling or trying to evacuate it with words feels reflexively better to them than sitting with it internally.

    6. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:14

       Right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:15

       So I think people, whe- when they feel an emotion, I think sometimes they- they feel like if they just talk about it or evacuate it, then it's like get- get... they get rid of it, but they forget that it has an impact.

    8. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:25

       Yes. Yes.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:26

       (laughs) Right?

    10. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:26

        And- and what you're talking about is- is projective identification. So, it... Projection, right, is when, um, you... like, you're feeling angry about something. Say you had, like... your boss did something to you at work and, you know, they- they- they upset you in some way or they were, you know, unkind and you're angry about... or they're gonna make you work all night and you're really pissed about that, right? So, you're angry, so you come home and you end up, um, you know, yelling at your partner, right? So, you're projecting... you're really mad at your boss, but all of a sudden, you're like, yelling at your partner. You're angry at your par-... That's projection. You're projecting one feeling-...about someone onto a different person that had nothing to do with the situation. Projective identification is a psychological process where you actually insert your feeling into the other person, so you're angry about something that happened at work. It's not that you are now angry at your partner, it's that you make your partner angry. It's like a hot potato. Like, you take your feelings and you toss them to someone else 'cause you can't tolerate the discomfort of that feeling. So, I don't wanna deal with the feeling, so I'm gonna say something to you that's gonna make you angry, right? And now they have to hold all the anger. You feel great. You're fine because you're not holding the anger anymore. And now they're the ones who can't sleep, they're the ones who are upset, they're the ones who have to deal with what you couldn't tolerate. So, it, again, we have to think about, you know, do we need to, like, why are we saying what we're saying? Can we be more intentional about how we communicate? Which doesn't mean you have to walk through a minefield. It just means that you have to be more aware of your feeling state and owning your feeling state and making sure that you aren't using other people in your environment to release your feeling state to something else, that you need to learn how you can shift your own feeling state to one that feels better for you.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:21

        I love that. I, um, I realized recently

13. 1:03:25 – 1:10:16

    React vs Respond; Space, Tool: Face-to-Face Conversation vs Text

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:26

       that thinking is something that we can practice.

    2. LGLori Gottlieb1:03:30

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:30

       I- I, for all of the tools and protocols that, you know, we talked about on this podcast and elsewhere, you know, like physiological size and morning sunlight and working out and zone two cardio in cold and, uh, you know, all the things, I, I realized, um, recently, like, spending five minutes just thinking about something...

    4. LGLori Gottlieb1:03:53

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:53

       ...and really trying to work through it linearly, um, like a, like a challenge, like a life challenge, is so valuable. Um, and I didn't come up with this on my own. I now have a practice of, of, like when something feels irritating or activating, I'll just like stop, put everything away, and I just sit and think, like, "What's going on here?" And, um, inevitably, there's some, like some growth and understanding at the end of that. But, uh, it's hard work, like to think like, "What's going on here? Am I activated because it's, like, true? Am I activated 'cause it's false? Am I..." You know, like having to sort all that, you might think, "Well, who has the time for this?" But actually, I would argue you don't have the time to not do it.

    6. LGLori Gottlieb1:04:32

       I think that's the difference between reacting and responding. So often what we do is we react to something, and that's not processed, not thought through. And again, it doesn't have to take, like you're saying, it doesn't have to take a long time to just even count to five and breathe and see, you know, 'cause reacting, re-acting, means acting again. So you are normally, when you're reacting, and it's like that zero to sixty, you're acting on something that happened in the past and you're layering it on to whatever's happening in the present. So you're having a big reaction to something. We like to say if it's historical, it's a, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Meaning if you're, and by hysterical I mean if you're having a big reaction, there's probably something from your past, some reaction that is visceral to you that you're having, that is getting layered onto this current situation, experience, problem, and you don't realize it. So that's reacting. You're acting again. You're acting on something that happened in the past. If it's hysterical, it's historical. Responding is I'm going to take a breath. I'm having a big reaction. I'm going to sit for a minute, again, regulating your nervous system, and now I can kind of think about this differently. So we need space between, you know, there's that famous Viktor Frankl quote of, you know, "Between stimulus and response there is a space and in that space lies our choice and our freedom." Um, that's a paraphrase of it. But you need that space between the stimulus, whatever the thing is that activated you, and your response. So that's the difference between reacting and responding.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:08

       I totally agree. A- and yet life happens in real time.

    8. LGLori Gottlieb1:06:11

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:11

       I mean, parents with kids, they got to pick them up and they're working and there's stuff coming through on the phone. My question is, do you think nowadays there's too much, um, communication bombardment through text, social media, um, phone, and real life, that we, we've eliminated all the space?

    10. LGLori Gottlieb1:06:33

        I think what we've eliminated is there's so much more space in a face-to-face conversation. So when I have young therapy clients who are, you know, maybe in their early 20s, and I, I had one client who was telling me this story in therapy a while ago, and now I understand what this means but this was several years ago, and she was telling it like this. She had her thumbs in the air and she said, "And then I said, and then he said, and then I said," and I'm thinking, "What is she doing?" And then I, I realized, I said, "Wait, you had this conversation on text?" And she said, "Yes, and it was a really important conversation." And I said, I was trying to explain to her why they were missing certain cues, they were missing what it feels like to be in the space together. They were missing the experience of looking in each other's eyes, of seeing facial expressions and body language, and she said, "Oh no, but we also used emojis." (laughs) And I had to explain to her why an emoji does not replace face-to-face interaction. Face-to-face interaction slows you down, right? You can just text anything and you don't realize there's another person at the other side of this on their phone who is reacting to your reaction. And I think that, you know, this is when we go back to comment sections. We don't realize, like, there's another person out there. We know that. But when there are so many times that we would have a very different kind of conversation with our partner, with family members, with friends, in our workplace, um, in comment sections if we could remember that there's a human there, and the easiest way to do that is to see someone...like this, looking across the table at you. We can't always do that, but I think when they're- you're having important conversations, that we should remember, wait, this probably isn't appropriate to talk about on text even though people think that, well, of course, it's so much more efficient. Actually, it's not 'cause now you're going to have conflict, now you're going to have misunderstandings, and now you're going to spend all this time trying to repair the rupture that just happened because you had the conversation on text.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:37

        I refuse to argue over text.

    12. LGLori Gottlieb1:08:39

        Yes.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:40

        I just won't have an argument over text.

    14. LGLori Gottlieb1:08:41

        And I'll say to people, you know, because, like, I have a client and, and he's always sort of, he says, "Well, I just get pulled into it with my girlfriend." And I'm like, "Really? Does somebody have a gun to your head?" Right? And, and this is where I think change, you know, we talk about what we want to accomplish in therapy, and it's change. It's not just coming in and downloading the problem of the week and leaving and downloading the problem of the week again and leaving. I like to say that insight is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have all the insight in the world, but if you don't make change out in the world, the insight is useless. So someone will say, "Oh, I got into that argument with my," you know, whoever, "my partner over the weekend." And I'll say, "Well, did you do something different?" They'll say, "Well, no, but I understand why." Great. That's good that you understand why, but you need to do something different 'cause we're all doing this dance with someone else, right? And if you change your dance steps... So people say, "I want the other person to change," and I say, "Well, you can't change the other person, but you can influence the other person by making changes yourself." So if you change your dance steps, the other person will either have to change their dance steps too because you're not doing that old dance with them anymore, or they'll leave the dance floor. And people are so afraid the person will leave the dance floor, and it's like, well, if they're not going to dance with you in a way that is the kind of relationship that you want, it's okay that they leave the dance floor. Go find someone who will dance with you in the way you want to dance.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:11

        When it comes to behavioral change-

    16. LGLori Gottlieb1:10:13

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:14

        ...are you a fan of

14. 1:10:16 – 1:15:38

    Behavioral Change, 5 Steps of Change, Tool: Self-Compassion & Accountability

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:16

       small, one-degree turns, or, um, I'll propose a- an alternative, not as a counter, but just to explore next-

    2. LGLori Gottlieb1:10:25

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:25

       ...but do you, do you like, um, do you encourage your clients... Do you call them patients or clients, by the way?

    4. LGLori Gottlieb1:10:31

       Either.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:31

       Okay.

    6. LGLori Gottlieb1:10:31

       I don't think either is a good word. I think it's so interesting because I think that it's just, we're just humans, and I don't mean to sound all woo-woo about this, but I really feel like the relationship that you have in that room, it's so unique, and I have not figured out a way to describe it, and I don't think client or patient quite does it, but for simplicity's sake, we use either.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:52

       Okay, um, thank you. I've always wondered about that. Um, do you recommend that your clients, um, make specific, subtle changes, uh, behavioral changes when they're, uh, after they m- have an insight, or maybe even before they have an insight?

    8. LGLori Gottlieb1:11:07

       Mm-hmm. I think the reason people have so much trouble changing is because the step that they've chosen is too big of a step to take at once, that you need small, manageable steps. And I think people also forget, this is why New Year's resolutions tend not to last very long, because change is a process, and there's a, there's a chapter in my book called How Humans Change, and I think it's so important for people to understand that there are stages of change, and it starts with pre-contemplation, where you don't even realize that you're thinking about making a change. You think, like, "Something's not right, but I don't really need to change." (laughs) Like, "Something's just not right in the world." Um, you know, "It's my partner, it's my," you know, "it's my child, it's my" whoever, right? Um, there's, then there's contemplation, which is, "Oh, maybe I could make a change, but I'm not quite ready to do it," and that's when people, usually they come to therapy somewhere around pre-contempl- they're kind of between pre-contemplation and contemplation. Like, something's not right, they come to therapy. We get them to contemplation, which is like, "Oh, maybe I'm contemplating making some changes," um, and then there's preparation, which is you're taking some steps to prepare for the change. So it's not like, "I'm going to dive into the deep end of the pool." It's like, "Oh, maybe I need to take some swimming lessons," or, "Maybe I need to get a swimsuit," or, "Maybe I need..." you know, whatever it is. Like, "I need to prepare to make this change." And then there's action, where you actually make the change, and people think that's the last step. That's action. No. The last stage is maintenance, and maintenance is, how do you maintain the change? And maintenance does not mean that you are perfectly maintaining the change. It's more like Chutes and Ladders, if you remember that game, where, like, kind of you go up and then you go down if you... You can make mistakes during this time because you're forming a new habit, you're forming a new way of being, and until it becomes familiar, going back to our discussion about how the familiar feels really good to us and the unfamiliar feels really scary, the new thing will take a while to feel familiar. So let's say that you say, like, "I'm going to eat healthy, and that means that I'm not going to, you know, like, eat an entire Häagen-Dazs or something when I'm sad. Then I'm going to do something different." Well, sometimes when you're sad, you might do that again, but then you don't self-flagellate. So it's not like, "Oh, it failed, so forget it. I'm not going to... Like, I, I failed and I'm not able to make this change." No. Or you don't say like, "Oh, I'm so terrible and that was awful and I'm so weak." Self-flagellation is not helpful. Imagine if your kid came to you and they said, like, "I did really poorly on this test." Are you going to say, "You're so stupid"? You know, like, "What's wrong with you?" No, you're going to say, "Let's talk about what happened," and they might say, "I needed help and I was embarrassed to ask," or, "I didn't understand it and..." or, "I didn't study. I messed up. I should have studied and I didn't study." "Okay, well, what are you going to do differently next time? Let's come up with a plan." So you need to have, just like you'd have some compassion for your child and hold them accountable-... both. It's hard to hold yourself accountable when you self-flagellate. In the short term, you can, but it doesn't last 'cause it feels so unpleasant, you're just sort of bathing in shame. What you need is self-compassion and actually, if you have more compassion for yourself, you're more able to hold yourself accountable. So you can say, "Oh, you know what happened? I was feeling really sad. I had this whole pint of Haagen-Dazs. But I, it's okay that I was sad, and there's another way to do this. So next time when I'm sad, I didn't have enough support, so I'm gonna call a friend next time." Oh, self-compassion with accountability. Or, "I'm not going to keep the Haagen-Dazs in the house because I know that when I'm sad, I'm susceptible to that. Maybe one day I'll be able to do it, but right now, I'm not going to keep that. But there's something else I can do, which is, I really feel like I want..." For me, self-compassion is related to, "I'm going to give myself a treat." So maybe my treat is I'm going to, um, you know, uh, I'm going to have, like, a healthy snack that I like, or maybe my treat is I'm going to go to a movie or, you know, whatever it is. But you have to figure out what works for you, and what works for other people might not work for you. So it takes a little bit of experimenting. So maintenance is this kind of experimentation, but having self-compassion with accountability until you find a system that works for you and the new thing becomes a habit, it becomes familiar, and the thing that you used to do becomes unfamiliar and doesn't feel good anymore.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:33

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT

15. 1:15:38 – 1:16:54

    Sponsor: LMNT

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:38

       is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons, or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes. They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT. They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera. Frankly, I love them all. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. Yeah, for so many years, the field of psy- popular psychology, um,

16. 1:16:54 – 1:26:27

    Deadlines & Rules; Idiot vs Wise Compassion, No Drama & Assumptions

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:55

       was obsessed with, you know, how long does it take to make a change? It was like 28 days, and then it was like 90.

    2. LGLori Gottlieb1:16:59

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:59

       I was like, and as somebody who studies neuroplasticity, um, I can tell you that, uh, there's one trial learning, you'll never go back, and there's stuff that takes years.

    4. LGLori Gottlieb1:17:08

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:08

       Um, it just depends on the intensity and the consequences (laughs) , right? And, and even with consequences, I mean, anyone that's seen somebody relapse from drugs so many times over, it's, uh, you, clearly they're working with more complicated dynamics there. I think that, um, this notion of reinforcing change is-

    6. LGLori Gottlieb1:17:25

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:25

       ... is super key. I'm really glad you raised that. I, I want to ask, um, as a, I don't know how to phrase this, as a counterpoint or-

Episode duration: 3:22:58