How to Find, Build & Maintain Healthy Romantic Relationships | Esther Perel

1. 0:00 – 2:03

   Esther Perel

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      (Music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Esther Perel. Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and one of the world's foremost experts on romantic relationships. She's also the author of best-selling books such as Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. Today's discussion focuses on what it means to be in a truly functional romantic relationship. We discuss this from the standpoint of identity, that is how people both try to hold onto and evolve their identities within a relationship and how a truly functional romantic relationship indeed evolves over time from a standpoint of curiosity and adventure, but also one in which people need to hold on to certain components of themselves. We explore what conflict in relationships looks like and the dynamics that underlie those conflicts, so focusing less on specific scenarios, but rather the dynamics that exist in conflicts in romantic relationship across all different situations and different combinations of people. And of course, we also talk about what healthy conflict resolution looks like, what a truly effective apology looks and sounds like, and we explore the erotic aspects of relationships, comparing and contrasting, for instance, love and desire, how sometimes those things run in parallel in the same direction, how sometimes those run in opposite directions, and how people can explore their own notions, their own models of love and desire in order to have more effective romantic relationships. By the end of today's episode, you will learn from the world's foremost expert on romantic relationships how to find, build, and revive romantic relationships that feel most satisfying to all partners involved. I'm also pleased to announce that Esther Perel has just released a new course on intimacy. You can find a link to that course in the show note captions, as well as links to her books, her podcast, and other resources about romantic relationships.

2. 2:03 – 6:33

   Sponsors: David Protein, LMNT & Helix Sleep

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:03

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and 0 grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein, and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next-closest protein bar. These bars from David also taste incredible. My favorite bar is the cake-flavored one, but then again, I also like the chocolate-flavored one and I like the berry-flavored one. Basically, I like all the flavors. They're all incredibly delicious. Now, for me personally, I try to get most of my calories from whole foods. However, when I'm in a rush or I'm away from home or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high-quality protein source. And with David, I'm able to get 28 grams of high-quality protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and it allows me to do so without taking on an excess of calories. Again, I focus on getting most of my food from whole food sources throughout the day, but I typically eat a David bar in the late afternoon when I get hungry between lunch and dinner, sometimes also mid-morning if I get hungry then, and sometimes I'll use it as a meal replacement, although not a complete meal replacement. It can get me to the next meal. So if I need to eat in a couple of hours but I'm really hungry, I'll eat a David bar. As I mentioned before, they are incredibly delicious. In fact, they're surprisingly delicious. Even the consistency is great. It's more like a cookie consistency, kind of a chewy cookie consistency, which is unlike other bars, which I tend to kind of saturate on. I was never a big fan of bars until I discovered David bars. If you give them a try, you'll know what I mean. So if you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Again, the link is davidprotein.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and bodily function. In fact, even a slight degree of dehydration is known to diminish cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes in order to stay hydrated. The electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons, or nerve cells. Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes. So to make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of both, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning. I drink that basically over the first half-hour or so that I'm awake, and I'll tend to also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and I'm losing water and electrolytes. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman. Again, that's drink LMNT, spelled L-M-N-T, .com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix. Again, drinkelement.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, the mattress we sleep on makes an enormous difference in terms of the quality of sleep that we get each night. We need a mattress that is matched to our unique sleep needs, one that is neither too soft nor too hard for you, one that breathes well and that won't be too warm or too cold for you. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach, do you tend to run hot or cold during the night, things of that sort. Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K. I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for, gosh, now more than four years, and the sleep that I've been getting is absolutely phenomenal. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that brief two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized to your unique sleep needs. Right now, Helix is giving up to 25% off mattresses and two free pillows. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get 25% off and two free pillows.And now for my discussion with Esther Perel.

3. 6:33 – 11:18

   Romantic Relationships, Change & Self

   1. AHAndrew Huberman6:33

      Esther Perel, welcome.

   2. EPEsther Perel6:34

      Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman6:37

      There are so many questions and curiosities and puzzles and, uh, challenges around the topic of romantic relationships. But what I really want to know is, to what extent is the decision to even think about being in a re- relationship of the romantic type a extension of our identity or is it really a willingness to potentially embrace a new identity? And I ask this somewhat abstract question for a very specific reason and the reason is the following: I think everyone who's been in a romantic relationship, or even who just wants one, is familiar with the kind of yearning or interest or curiosity, and then also with the fact that just like the development of our physical body, it has an arc across the lifespan, that a relationship has a sort of developmental arc. There's the first meeting, the first week, the first month, et cetera, and so much of what I've seen in your work and in the discussion about relationships in the public sphere seems to be trying to understand how we change in terms of what we want and what we ask for, what we feel willing to ask for, et cetera, across this arc of the relationship. But what I want to know is, is the decision to enter a romantic relationship a willingness, conscious or unconscious, to actually change who we are? In other words, are we entering a relationship to just be ourselves and find someone with whom-

   4. EPEsther Perel8:11

      I got it. (laughs)

   5. AHAndrew Huberman8:11

      ... we go lock and key, or are we really saying, "Hey," even whether or not we realize or not, if we're pursuing a relationship, are we really basically saying, "I'm willing to become a different person by virtue of being in a relationship"?

   6. EPEsther Perel8:25

      I think it is both. Completely both. We meet an other in order to find ourselves, and we meet an other and want to be surprised by the self we haven't known. I think that all of us come into this world with a fundamental sets of dual needs. We need security and we need freedom and adventure. And we need togetherness and we need separateness. So in the relationship, you come in order to create that identification, but also that differentiation. It's- it's a- it's a dialectic all the time. But what's interesting is, even if I choose you because you represent sometimes the parts of me that are more challenging or that I disavow or that I prefer to outsource so I don't have to be too vulnerable about them, what draws me to you in the beginning because it is different, that I think may expand me and make me change, is also the very thing that becomes the source of conflict later. Because we want to change, but up to a point. (laughs) Not too much, and not on your terms. So we want change, but we sometimes are afraid of change, and so we let the other person represent the part of us that would want to change, but then we disconnect from it. So you can- you become the representative of that. I am drawn to the fact that you are stable, grounded, structured, solid, reliable, on time, you name it. I know that this is something that I would like to be more of, and just a very simple example, but then I start to think of you as rigid, (laughs) because I get a little more than what I bargained for. And now I start to argue with your rigidity, and my desire to actually become more structured and solid and so- and punctual and reliable has somehow disappeared.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman10:30

      So if I understand correctly, we seek out others in order to try and initiate the process of change that we want.

   8. EPEsther Perel10:39

      Right.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman10:40

      But then when we hit the friction point, meaning the point-

   10. EPEsther Perel10:43

       That's right.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman10:44

       ... where it challenges where we are-

   12. EPEsther Perel10:45

       That's right.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman10:46

       ... then there's a- a form of, um, resent or frustration. The reason I-

   14. EPEsther Perel10:51

       Defensiveness.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman10:52

       Defensiveness.

   16. EPEsther Perel10:53

       Yes. You know what it is? Every system straddles stability and change, and then grapples for homeostasis. Every relationship goes through that, every- every- e- every system in nature goes through that. But the same thing is true inside an individual. We want change, and we need stability. And then these things sometimes are compensating each other and they are complementary, and at times, they butt heads.

4. 11:18 – 16:53

   Cornerstone vs. Capstone Relationships, Age Differences

   1. AHAndrew Huberman11:18

      So a very practical question-

   2. EPEsther Perel11:21

      Yeah. (laughs)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman11:23

      ... then. What are the, um, necessary but not sufficient elements that somebody should have in themselves before they go seeking a romantic relationship? Meaning, um, what is necessary in order to be able to embark on the process with any chance of success, um, barring, you know, extreme pathology, right? Um, assuming that both people entering the relationship have the best of intentions to make the relationship work, in quotes.

   4. EPEsther Perel11:52

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman11:52

      Is it both a sense of one's own identity as well as what specifically they would like to change? Or is it, um, some other, you know, constellation of factors?

   6. EPEsther Perel12:05

      Different ways to answer this. Um, you know, I think sometimes people say, "I- I- I- I want to be with you because you help me become the best version of myself."

   7. AHAndrew Huberman12:16

      Yeah, you hear that a lot.

   8. EPEsther Perel12:17

      And so what is that version, you know? Who is it that I want to see that I think you will help me become? When you talk about these romantic relationships, first of all, I think is- there's a different answer if we're talking about cornerstone relationships or capstone relationships. Do you know the- the- the concept?

   9. AHAndrew Huberman12:35

      Uh, if you don't mind defining those-

   10. EPEsther Perel12:37

       Right.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman12:37

       ... for the audience and for me.

   12. EPEsther Perel12:37

       So the cornerstone relationship is- is where, when we used to meet in our early 20s, and together, we build...... the foundation of our relationship. We grew together, we, uh, uh, f- saved our first monies together, we got our first places together, etc. It was very much foundational. Capstone is the foundation has already been established because we, uh, tend to mate at this point 10, 12 years later. So, during those 12 years, I've already actually worked, so to speak, on my identity. I have defined myself, my values, my aspirations, my constructs, how I want to see my life. And when I meet you, you're a confirmation for all of this. You're a confirmation of what I've already built and I am putting you and me as the capstone, which we put on top of what we've already created, you and me. You've done the same thing. So, I am looking for someone who recognizes my identity, not for someone who helps me develop my identity, uh, from much earlier age. So, there's a developmental arc that changes the mandate. I said it's both, but the priority of, if it's, uh, the building of identity or the expansion of that identity, what you call change, dif- differs if you meet somebody when you're young and if you meet somebody when you're in your- in your 30s.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman14:02

       What happens when people are mismatched in terms of age?

   14. EPEsther Perel14:05

       I mean, there is, uh, big age differences a lot of the time. And in gay relationships you have often a major, um, age difference that means something else, but it creates differentiation. In straight relationships, you often have men who are a lot more- a lot older than the women, uh, uh, very much rooted in evolutionary biolo- biology, I think, and- and fertility. But, um, and now, we have more and more, uh, a new phenomenon of older women with younger men, but that's actually been very rare in most cultures.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman14:40

       S- so that's shifting now towards, um, more- more often people are observing older women with younger men?

   16. EPEsther Perel14:46

       You know, when you have four movies at this moment that are talking about this, then you f- begin to see the- the crescent of a- of a new phen- cultural phenomenon. I don't th- I think the fact that it appears in the arts and in the culture usually announces something, but I wouldn't make it yet a phenomenon.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman15:02

       Mm-hmm.

   18. EPEsther Perel15:02

       But you asked me a question before about, "What are the things people need?" I mean, you know, when you embark any relationship, it's- it- it's, uh, again, it's- it's, uh, I tend to think as both end on a lot of things. I come to you with a certain self-awareness. How much self-awareness? The more there is, the better. And that self-awareness, I think, as it's best translates in a sense of, I- you know, I think a good vow to say at the time of your wedding is, "I'll fuck up on a regular basis, and on occasion I'll acknowledge it."

   19. AHAndrew Huberman15:39

       (laughs)

   20. EPEsther Perel15:40

       It means that a self-awareness comes with a self-knowledge about your limitations, your res- and your ability to take responsibility for it without blame and shame, and- and basically accountability. I think accountability is an enormous component of relationship. It's- it's- and it's okay. We all do things, you know? We all have our wounds and our frustrations and our expectations and our unexpressed needs and our unfulfilled longings, etc., but it's a good thing to know it and to admit it and to not pretend that it's not me, but it's you. You know, I often say that couples therapy, I am a practicing couples therapist for almost 40 years, and couples often come to therapy thinking that you're a drop-off center, you know?

   21. AHAndrew Huberman16:28

       (laughs)

   22. EPEsther Perel16:28

       They come to deliver their problem, and their problem is their partner, and you're gonna fix it, and they're gonna help you 'cause they're an expert on what's wrong with the partner. And it's an amazing thing how people have tremendous insight on all the shortcomings of the other person and do not see themselves as part of a system. A relationship is a breathing, living system of interdependent parts.

5. 16:53 – 20:13

   Young vs. Older Couples, Dynamic Relationships

   1. EPEsther Perel16:53

   2. AHAndrew Huberman16:53

      Do you think that's perhaps one reason why people who are in these cornerstone relationships, of whom I've known many, you know, um, even family members of mine, you know, met in university, met their significant other, and then had their first jobs, moved in together, all the things you described, that there's this, um-

   3. EPEsther Perel17:09

      They grow up together.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman17:11

      Y- yeah, and I think it probably happens at a stage of life when there's still a lot more neuroplasticity, frankly. I mean, everything I know about neuroplasticity is that it exists across the lifespan, but that it tapers off significantly in one's late 20s.

   5. EPEsther Perel17:22

      Right.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman17:23

      And, you know, fortunately, it's still available, but the notion of being set in our ways is a neuroplasticity phenomenon, right?

   7. EPEsther Perel17:30

      Yes, yes, it's the cr- (laughs) it's the closing of the prefrontal cortex. (laughs)

   8. AHAndrew Huberman17:32

      Pretty much. Uh, pretty much.

   9. EPEsther Perel17:34

      The fontanelle is still- (laughs)

   10. AHAndrew Huberman17:35

       E- exactly. Takes a lot more to open that plasticity, uh, later than it does earlier, certainly. And yet, it's, um, inversely related to the self-awareness, right? I mean, the younger we are, the less self-aware we are about our patterns because we just have less data over time. So, I- I could see how it'd be f- more difficult, uh, for somebody in their 20s to say, "Hey, listen, I- I think I have a- a good many virtues, but I have this severe issue with something," or, "This particularly frustrates me," or, "Here's my laundry list of issues," right? Whereas somebody in their 40s or 50s, um, or older, if pressed, could probably make that list if they were really being honest with themselves. So, it seems like the-

   11. EPEsther Perel18:14

       I think it's a good point.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman18:15

       You know, so it seems that, um, there- maybe there's a sweet spot, but, um, that these earlier relationships, I've- I've always, um, been impressed by them and kind of romanticized them in my mind, um, because that wasn't the trajectory that I took, but-

   13. EPEsther Perel18:28

       But they have a challenge. You see, when you grow up together, you often put a lot of energy into the building of the unit.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman18:37

       Mm-hmm.

   15. EPEsther Perel18:38

       And that unit then is supposed to become your base, your scaffolding from which two individuals can begin to grow and to define themselves. When you meet later, you are already two individuals that have defined themselves, who now have to find a way to create the energy to come together. So it's a different mo- movement, it's a different choreography. I think that the challenge for young couples today who meet early in cup- in college and- and have known often only themselves and a few people in their teenage years, et cetera, or none, is what happens when- when- when they begin to change individually? Can the relationship expand enough to broaden the envelope, to let these two people, you know, emerge individually? Or i- i- is the jacket too tight, is the vest too tight? And often that it- it becomes a bit of a crisis. It's a... Because they grew- they grew together by- by bu- you know, on the basis of this togetherness. Um, and sometimes they can, and sometimes it just feels like this is... The, that in order to become adults, it may need to happen with a different partner. And that's why I always say, I think this moment, we have two or three relationships or marriages in our adult life, in the West. And some of us will do it with the same person, but the relationship has to change. Um, i- it's like the person changes the relationship, but the relationship makes room for the person to change. This is dynamic.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman20:12

       If,

6. 20:13 – 26:00

   Identity & Relationship Evolution

   1. AHAndrew Huberman20:13

      that just feels like such a true statement to me because, uh, in my, um, professional life as a developmental neurobiologist, there's a saying. People always think of development and then adulthood, but all of life is one big developmental arc.

   2. EPEsther Perel20:25

      That's absolutely correct.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman20:26

      And the great psychologist, Erikson, spoke about the different sort of challenges that people face from birth all the way until death, which, you know, nowadays, hopefully will extend into people's 80s, 90s, or even beyond.

   4. EPEsther Perel20:39

      Well, his last stage is the generative stage.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman20:41

      Mm-hmm.

   6. EPEsther Perel20:41

      It's actually an amazing ... I mean, he's th- the most articulate theoretician of stages of life.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman20:47

      I agree. If people haven't seen those stages, we'll put a link to them in the show note captions.

   8. EPEsther Perel20:51

      Yeah. Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman20:51

      But the idea is that-

   10. EPEsther Perel20:52

       So glad you mentioned him.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman20:52

       ... you're basically grappling with some basic struggle that you either reconcile or you don't at every stage. So you could imagine that these, let's say these three marriages, let's imagine a couple that meets in their 20s and does three marriages, which implies, uh, a couple divorces in between.

   12. EPEsther Perel21:07

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman21:07

       Maybe not legal divorces. Um, across their lifespan. They really are, according to the Erikson Theory of Development or any neurobiological examination of brain development, different people in their 20s versus 40s versus 60s, 70s, 80s. So this notion of three different marriages to me seems, um, both logical and very grounded in what we know about the biology of the- the brain and the self. So, um, and yet-

   14. EPEsther Perel21:33

       A good metaphor is rooted in science. (laughs)

   15. AHAndrew Huberman21:37

       And- and yet it's also kind of a radical idea when one hears it for the first time. If framed in the context of with the same person, it sounds kind of lovely and romantic. Okay, they meet, it's lovely. They have their first marriage. Then there's some challenge they overcome, they do a second marriage. Then some challenge, and a third marriage. And maybe there's even grandchildren, you imagine maybe even great-grandchildren. There's all this kind of, uh, romantic notions built up around it. But then there's also the reality that for many people, more than half, there's a fracture of the first marriage and that they either remain single or marry again. And so what do you think dictates whether or not a person can go through these series of evolutions and actually find and create love again and again and again, either with the same person or with someone new, or in some cases, I guess three different partners? I mean, w- what is the sort of, um, requirement? Is it a- a willingness to accept this model and understand that who they are at 50 is going to be very different than who they were in their 20s?

   16. EPEsther Perel22:41

       You know, a good question is a question that has many answers. There's different ways to answer this. Um, I think that more than thinking about it as they were able- able to overcome crises, it's really the ability to redefine oneself and to redefine a relationship. It's much more creative than problem-solving. You can overcome a crisis and put it aside and stay the same. This is much more of a, of a generative experience. It's a creative experience, is that you actually become a different unit. The power dynamic is different. The interdependence is different. The- the erotic charge is different. The- the- the- the connection to the outside world is different. It's- it's really, it's- it's- it's enlivening. The, you know, I think everybody understands the difference between a relationship that is not dead and a relationship that is alive. I- I am not there to help people survive. I, my work is- the w- is about more than that. It's about helping people to feel alive. And the redefinition of having the same relationship with the same person, it has to be alive, not just not dead. And if sometimes that alive means recreating a new, you know, going to a new person, a new country, a new city, a new social circle, a new profession, a new a lot of things that we today have access to- to change, things that people did once. You know, when I ask an audience if your grandparents grew up in the same neighborhood or in the same town and worked in the same company, I mean, most people raise their hands. And then I go down the generations, and then now it's like, "How many j- how many of you have had three jobs in the last five years?" So this notion that we can...... create new things for ourselves is actually one of the greatest things that has happened in the realm of relationships. We can have kids much later, we can join somebody who has already had those children, we can marry in our 60s for the first time, we can live in a, in a trip- threesome. We can, th- there's a plasticity, if you wanna use a word that you, it, that, to- to the world of relationship today that is extremely rich and expansive, but demands a set of skills to negotiate, to understand the uncertainty that comes from having to make so many decisions at a time when, in the past, none of us made decisions about most of these things. They were handed down to us. So, that level of freedom is utterly rich, but comes with a tremendous amount of anxiety and demands maturity. And sometimes couples have become so entrenched and so locked in their story, and confusing their story with the truth, and feeling that they're living next to someone who has a completely different version of the story that they cannot talk to. Like, there is no greater polarization sometimes than a couple that once agreed on a lot of things, that you just think there's- there's no way change can enter this system.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman25:59

       Okay,

7. 26:00 – 30:29

   Curiosity, Reactivity

   1. AHAndrew Huberman26:00

      so when I hear your answer, um, what comes to mind is that, again, as a neurobiologist, I think the brain, the human brain has this amazing capacity to focus on past, present, or future. And sometimes two of those three things. Uh, it's kinda hard to think about all three at once. But it sounds to me as if one of the more functional attributes that somebody can have if they want to navigate relationship in a healthy way is to be able to, at least temporarily, discard with one's story about one's past and even their past identity. And the word that was coming up over and over again in my mind as you answered was this word you used earlier, which was curiosity. And I'm wondering if what you're referring to is a curiosity on the part of hopefully both people in the relationship as to what the relationship could become and who oneself could become. And my definition of curiosity is an interest in finding out, but without an emotional attachment to what the outcome is. This is what we train scientists to do.

   2. EPEsther Perel27:07

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman27:07

      You wanna get the answers, but you can't get emotionally attached to the answer being A or B. That's anti-curiosity. Real, genuine curiosity is about the process, the verb action of wanting to figure out something, but not being attached to a particular outcome. And as you were describing the functional trajectory of relationship, I was thinking, "Okay, so if one could approach relationship with a willingness to discard kind of stories about one's past and maybe even a sense of one's identity of past, be willing to let go of that a little bit, and just be curious about, like, 'Where could this go if I let the relationship guide my evolution of identity a bit?'" And that takes some, as you said, some- some boldness, because if... It's kinda scary, right? If you, not knowing who y- one is going to become if they let the other person, you know, maybe lead for a while, or, um, or if they were to lead for a while. Are these the sorts of dynamics that you're referring to?

   4. EPEsther Perel28:08

      I think you almost articulated one of the most important pieces of my work. Um, I mean, curiosity is one of the top words for me, um, because it stands in opposition to reactivity. Reactivity reinforces the cycle. It just creates narrow repetition, rapid inc-, you know, cycles of escalation. It then usually involves defense, and attack, and blame, et cetera. Curiosity is an active engagement with the unknown. And I like when you say, "Without the attachment to the outcome or the emotional, uh, investment." I think that's absolutely accurate, and, um, much of what I do is try to have people switch from reactive to curious. But that curiosity means that they're willing to enter empathically and respectfully into the realm of another person whose narrative is completely different. I'm very invested and familiar with the neurosciences and the- the- the whole work on the brain in relationships, but I am very interested in narrative. Because I believe that the story shapes the experience. And when people hold onto the story and they don't think it's a story, they think it's fact, "This is what happened last night. I'll tell you what you did. I'll tell you what happened." You know, "That's not the case." You know, and they don't see this as a subjective rendering. It's totally valid, but it's valid as your experience, and much of couples' conversations is pseudo-factual talk. But it is actually subjective. Once you get that, you can become curious. Once you are curious, you open up. But it is very challenging when people are hurt, wounded, defensive, um, they're holding tight, to invite that curiosity. It's- it's, what's happening in their bodies is about shutdown, and defense, and self-protection, and you want... I'm doing this physically to you because you, i- i- this is where the brain and the neurobiology in that moment is going against what actually is in their best interest psychologically and existentially.

8. 30:29 – 31:59

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. AHAndrew Huberman30:29

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great. Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited. In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1. The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from Whole Foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins, and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone. And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong. But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better. I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1, and I certainly felt the difference. I also notice, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid-morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.

9. 31:59 – 38:21

   Polarization, Conflict; Coherence & Narratives

   1. AHAndrew Huberman31:59

      I am a firm believer that when we are in a stress response that we become locked in a time domain, and not to spin off into-

   2. EPEsther Perel32:08

      Yes. Yes, yes.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman32:08

      ... a tangent about this, but-

   4. EPEsther Perel32:09

      No, no, it's not a tangent.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman32:10

      But, you know, put differently, when we are relaxed, we, um, can think about time and our life and other things happening around us and others in a far more dynamic way. The stress response is about solving for the feeling now. It has no sense about, um, or it doesn't allow us a, a window into the cognition or emotions that are related to what could be, even though we desperately want out of there and there's all sorts of evolutionary reasons why this would be the case.

   6. EPEsther Perel32:38

      Of course.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman32:39

      But, um, I feel like a statement that you made, um, which is that a curiosity and a willing to discard with one's own narratives, and in particular what you said about the f- that people perceive their own experience as fact when in actuality-

   8. EPEsther Perel32:55

      Often, yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman32:55

      ... it's, it's just-

   10. EPEsther Perel32:56

       Or sometimes it is. (laughs)

   11. AHAndrew Huberman32:56

       ... two different stories and neither person is correct. Um, or one person, you know, but people have these stories which are almost confabulation at some point but they feel so true to all of us when we experience them. I also feel like that's a lot of what's happening in culture at large. People... Diametrically opposed camps really believe that the same thing is a reflection of two completely different series of facts and, and it seems almost unsolvable at the level of culture. There's just too many people. But at the level of two individuals, I feel like it ought to be, um-

   12. EPEsther Perel33:29

       (laughs)

   13. AHAndrew Huberman33:29

       ... tractable.

   14. EPEsther Perel33:30

       You know, I have gone to a lot of meetings in the last year on issues of polarization at, on a s- on societal levels, and, and I often think, like, "What is a psychologist or a couple therapist doing in those meetings? Why am I invited here?" And then I think, "You know what? You actually have a lot of experience with polarizations." Sitting f- for a long time with couples who once actually f- f- thought, "In the presence of the other, I discover myself" (laughs) -

   15. AHAndrew Huberman34:02

       Mm-hmm.

   16. EPEsther Perel34:02

       ... now, you know, can be so at odds. They're sitting in the same room, they're listening to the same session, they have a complete different m- interpretation of what I said and what it meant, and they leave and you wonder, did it happen in the same room? The same thing is about what they describe about the night before. It's like it... And if you didn't see them together and you saw them each alone, you would be completely mistaken because it's like Swiss cheese. Everything that one has left out is where the other one starts. (laughs) So we learn a lot from doing couples work around the process of polarization, of the, around the process of intractable conflict, around the, the sense that you are my enemy and, and there is nothing in what you say that I can recognize or be empathic towards or, or understanding. I think s- uh, on a societal level, the people who have studied intractable conflict, um, n- basically have a method, uh, of how you bring two opposing parties, factions, uh, tribes, you know, who have been in conflict and at war for a long time and how do you bring them together. There is... There's actually a method, a process. It's not s- written in stone, but, you know, you certainly don't start by talking about the things that drive you completely apart and unable to talk to each other. You start by finding some elements of your shared humanity. In a couple, 'cause that, that is the, the, the, the space we, we talk about now, in a couple it's an incredible thing how you, people can literally think that the other person wants their demise. You live day in, day out with someone who you have c- who you, who you really think wants to hurt you, is your enemy, and sometimes, um, there is evil, you know? There's, there's people who, uh, don't have good intentions, but in many situations, it's, it's a, it's also a projection. It's also experiences that you've had in the past. And this is where what's interesting is that the narrative, the conscious narrative, lives here in the br- what you call the brain that can only locate itself in three temporal... In the brain and the physiology are in a different time. Implicit memory is completely influencing explicit narrative.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman36:39

       Yeah, people are incredibly prone to confabulation based on these unconscious things going on and it, it's kind of a scary thought.

   18. EPEsther Perel36:46

       If I feel it, this is what's happening.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman36:49

       That's right. Right.

   20. EPEsther Perel36:50

       And because we are creatures of meaning, we need to reconcile those things, and we need coherence in our narratives. And that coherence is what is so difficult for, when- when you work with people who are hold... What is it that they're holding on to? I mean, you know, one of the classic examples is some, uh, you know, someone says, "I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to." And the other one says, "That's not the case." You know? Like, if someone tells you, "I didn't mean to hurt you," you would think that someone would say, "Ah, that's reassuring. I like to hear that. I hope that's true. Um, makes me feel a lot better." Rather than proving to you that that's not true. "You wanted to step on my toes. You, you intentionally put those heels on, or those shoes, or th-, you know, those fists, or, to- to- to- to step on me." And that coherence of maintaining the idea that if I feel that you hurt me, you must have been wanting to hurt me, rather than, you know, I can be hurt and that doesn't mean you intentionally were trying to do anything. It's as if I need to justify my being hurt by the, by the intention of what you did. And to just make sure, sometimes that's the case.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman38:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. EPEsther Perel38:06

       It's not that there are not people who intentionally want to hurt some people. But at other times, what I'm highlighting is that the coherence to make sense of why I'm feeling this way demands that I also define what you are trying to do to me.

10. 38:21 – 45:00

    Apologies, Forgiveness, Shame, Self-Esteem

    1. EPEsther Perel38:21

    2. AHAndrew Huberman38:21

       I mean, and in reality, um, most people are terrible at understanding how they themselves feel, let alone someone else's intentions. I mean, if somebody apologizes and says, "Listen, I'm- I'm truly sorry. Uh, I screwed up." And the other person says, "Um, I don't believe you." I think what they're really saying, you can tell me if I'm wrong, is, "I don't feel better as a consequence of your apology."

    3. EPEsther Perel38:47

       That's because your apology, "I screwed up," is incomplete.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman38:51

       Hmm.

    5. EPEsther Perel38:53

       Most of the time, people say that. "I made a mistake, I'm sorry, nah-nah-nah." But it doesn't acknowledge what the other person felt in response to what we did.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman39:03

       So let's say that the apology also includes a, "I, you know, I really messed up. It makes total sense that you would be upset. You know, we had an agreement that we would meet at 7:00, and I didn't get home until 9:00, and I didn't notify you until 8:00. I would be upset too. That's totally justified. That sucks. That's gotta really suck." At that point, if the other person still feels like, (grunts) it's still frustrating, um, presumably it's because either this is a pattern?

    7. EPEsther Perel39:41

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman39:42

       Um, so this doesn't, this one apology doesn't encapsulate...

    9. EPEsther Perel39:45

       That's right.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman39:45

        ... all the other...

    11. EPEsther Perel39:46

        That's right.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman39:47

        ... the-

    13. EPEsther Perel39:47

        That's right.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman39:47

        ... the- the sort of litany of other things that relate to this, of feeling unseen or unappreciated or, you know-

    15. EPEsther Perel39:52

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman39:52

        There's often a lot more behind this-

    17. EPEsther Perel39:53

        Yep.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman39:54

        ... the event.

    19. EPEsther Perel39:54

        You've apologized many times.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman39:55

        Right. Um, or yeah, it could be a pattern of apologies that don't ch- e- equate to change, or it could be a pattern of an apology that, um, doesn't encapsulate all the other things that weren't voiced. Because sometimes people won't voice their grievances, uh, because they, for whatever reason, but there's a lot of resent that's built up, right? So in that moment when somebody, um, tells another that they are, um, not convinced, emotionally convinced, uh, what are, what are the tools that you give each in order to be able to navigate that sticking point?

    21. EPEsther Perel40:28

        I think apology is an amazing topic in the realm of relationship. It's a huge piece. Apology, forgiveness, ownership, responsibility, accountability, that whole range of things. I think if you give that apology, many times somebody, and- and it's not that you're doing this every Tuesday, the person will probably just say, "Thank you." If you have someone who can't receive an apology, and the apology is sincere, that's the first and foremost thing that accompanies an apology, then you begin to ask, "Why is this person struggling to receive this?" 'Cause it is the thing that you should be getting. And then you start to ask yourself, "Is it because if I accept your apology, it's as if I agree that what you did wasn't so bad? It is repairable. And in order to really make clear that the grievance is big, I cannot receive your apology." That's one of the...

    22. AHAndrew Huberman41:44

        Mm-hmm.

    23. EPEsther Perel41:44

        ... dynamics that often occurs in that moment. And- and so you ask sometimes. You know, you sit and you see. You see somebody who pretends to say, "I'm sorry." You see somebody who just says, "Come on, what's the fi- big deal?" And then you see people who really are in- are sincere, and then you watch what's happening to the other person. Are they relieved? Are they suspicious? Are they feeling like they would, they would dissolve a certain element of their identity if they don't hold down to this?

    24. AHAndrew Huberman42:13

        Mm-hmm.

    25. EPEsther Perel42:14

        Um, is it as if they're saying, you know, "You can get away with it"? You know, "It's not as bad" because accepting the apology is to minimize the issue. And then you switch the burden on the other side. You know, in- in Judaism, you apologize three times, and if after the third time, and you've done a real reckoning apology, if after three time the other person does not accept it, the burden passes over to the other person.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman42:45

        Interesting.

    27. EPEsther Perel42:46

        This is my money desk. And I think it's an incredibly interesting idea. That at some point the person has made the amends, when they have, and when you cannot receive it then now the burden passes on you.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman43:03

        I'm just gonna hover there for a second because I agree that apology is such an interesting and important concept. And you mentioned that accepting somebody's apology at an emotional level, not just saying, "Thank you, I accept your apology." But really internalizing that and a- allowing space for it to shift your experience of the, the thing that hurt.

    29. EPEsther Perel43:25

        And by the way, accepting the apology doesn't yet mean that you forgive.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman43:28

        Hmm.
11. 45:00 – 53:48

    Relationship Conflict

    1. EPEsther Perel45:00

    2. AHAndrew Huberman45:00

       I find that so much of being an "adult," again in quotes-

    3. EPEsther Perel45:05

       Yes. Yes, you would hope. (laughs)

    4. AHAndrew Huberman45:07

       ... is, uh, involves, um, the disambiguating two things. Uh, one is we're taught to really trust our own experience to some extent, to stand our ground when we know A is true and B is false. But then also part of being an adult is admitting when we're wrong. And, um, and there's no rule book, no real-time rule book for that, especially given that people have different versions of the same thing often. But it seems to me that one of the great challenges in, not just in romantic relationship, but in relationships of all kinds, is to really be able to slow down and enter the state of mind and body that allows us to do the kind of processing you're talking about. So at a very practical level, I'm curious, let's say a, a couple comes into your office and they're dealing with, um, a, either a single hurt ...

    5. EPEsther Perel46:07

       Conflict.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman46:07

       ... or a litany of hurts or, or something like that. Do you ma-, uh, believe it's important for them to shift out of their emotional state to be able to process differently? Do you have them at the beginning of a session, do you have them do a couple deep breaths together? Do you have them recall a time when they felt particularly bonded? Is there an effort to shift their somatic state in order to bring their mind to a place of more curiosity?

    7. EPEsther Perel46:30

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman46:30

       Or is going straight to the issue often the best way in?

    9. EPEsther Perel46:34

       First of all, I like that we, that ... (laughs) it's interesting we're going from apology to conflict.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman46:39

        (laughs)

    11. EPEsther Perel46:39

        It makes total sense. I, I spent the last year creating a whole course on conflict and how do you turn conflict into connection?

    12. AHAndrew Huberman46:47

        Beautiful.

    13. EPEsther Perel46:47

        What is good conflict? You know, I think conflict is inherent to relationships. And then what are problematic ways to deal with conflict? Yes, on some level you, there is very little you can hear if you are in a state of hyper arousal, if you are in a position of self-protection. I mean, all these stressful places, all these cortisol levels going up, et cetera, are not gonna help you. But at the same time, you can't, in the moment that someone is, uh, completely agitated, talk with them about trusting. I mean, it's just like the physiology is not corresponding. So it's a, it's a real dance. Um, I don't do the breath often. Sometimes. Um, I, I actually don't do anything all the time. I, I, I'm working like a tailor. I do fittings.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman47:41

        Mm-hmm.

    15. EPEsther Perel47:41

        I'm, I mean, I think the richness of therapy is, is, is in its art on some level.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman47:46

        Mm-hmm.

    17. EPEsther Perel47:46

        Let me be, um ... But sometimes I just say, "I think you need to stand up and move and just listen to what your partner has to say, but don't sit." Sometimes I say, "Don't look at each other." Sometimes I say, "Turn to each other." Some things are better done face to face, and some things are better done side by side. You know, parallel play, fishing. (laughs) There's a lot of thing like, you know, driving, from every parent who's ever had a kid in the back knows this, the, the ... You don't, you have both. You have moments when you need to be able to look into each other, and then you have moments where you just need to do this, something about the side by side. Then it's also the limits of words. When is it important to talk and when, you know, we're talking because we are homo sapiens, but in fact, if we were animals, we would be just making noises. We're not really making sense.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman48:43

        Mm-hmm.

    19. EPEsther Perel48:44

        So stop talking.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman48:45

        Mm-hmm.

    21. EPEsther Perel48:46

        So what I try very hard to do is ...... to not let people show the worst side of themselves. They can do that at home. They don't need to come and shame themselves in my office. And I do know that certain situations will draw the worst out of people, but that doesn't mean that that's who they are. And that's one of the big things as a therapist, is to, to not fall for that and just ... Because if you met these people alone, they would be charming. And if you had met them maybe two years before, they would have been charming too. So something's happening between them that is making them act and react from places of deep hurt and fear and attack and all of that, and aggression. And sometimes I see them alone. "I don't think that you are capable of having this conversation at this moment, because you're not willing to take any responsibility when you're sitting next to your partner. You're in a blame fest, and we're not gonna do that so I'm gonna talk with you alone, and then I'm gonna prepare you to come to your partner with at least one or two things that you can own. 'What am I doing to contribute to this mess?' or, 'What am I doing to make things better?'" I like to start a session by asking, "What did you d-" And if I'm dealing with a kind of chronic conflict, low-intensity warfare or bigger, depends what kind, uh, no, there's different kinds of con- but I like to ask, "What have you done this week to make things better?"

    22. AHAndrew Huberman50:16

        Hmm. What a great question.

    23. EPEsther Perel50:19

        "What have you done to make your partner feel that they matter?" Rather than, "What happened this week?" You know? "I, I kind of have a sense. Please do not tell me the last unraveling," you know? Uh, uh, "I got it. It goes from one, from zero to 60 in no time." And none of this, I, I, I don't need the details of the story. I need to know what you're doing to each other, what feelings you're instigating in each other. I don't need the plot. I, the plot is, you know ... There's only three dances. This, fight, you, you know, aiming at each other, withdrawing from each other, or one person withdrawing and one person pursuing. Those are three types of m- major choreographies of conflict. (makes fighting noises) Or (makes hissing noise) quiet silence, or one goes after the other who is closing the doors and they follow them through the house-

    24. AHAndrew Huberman51:13

        Mm-hmm.

    25. EPEsther Perel51:14

        ... which is following them to a lot of other things. And from that place on, you decide, okay, who is doing what to whom? Who is feeling what at the hands of whom? How, what is influencing this? You know, um, this person is once again feeling that when this one didn't talk to them, they were being given the silent treatment that they used to feel when they grow up, and, um, and th- and th- this feeling of neglect and dismissal is just crushing them 'cause they suddenly feel like they've been rejected completely. And this one is feeling like they're once again being attacked and invaded by this other person who keeps following them and wants to talk when they have nothing (laughs) and, and is remembering when they were living in the place where they grew up where they couldn't wait for, to get out because they were feeling completely flooded and overwhelmed by the shitshow of their house. And these two stories are now dictating what's happening between these two people. These two people are no longer adults in the room. Their younger selves have completely taken over. Their amygdala is completely flooded. And then, and then it matter, it depends. Sometimes, because I'm a little bit narrative-driven, I may make the mistake to actually go to the story when, in fact, these two people really p- Some, uh, times I sit for 10 minutes quiet. I say, "We're gonna just wait for, for our systems to regulate." Uh, 'cause even I get agitated. It's not like it doesn't absor- I don't absorb it. I say, "I think we need some sitting here." Sometimes I put music. I love music, so I, I put music. You know, um, I just say, "I don't think even single word is gonna help here." And sometimes I say, "I think we should stop the session." (laughs) I mean, it depends. If you think there's something that can be gained, if you start to feel like it's just gonna make it worse. And sometimes I, in the middle of the session, may say, "When's the last time you made him a cup of tea? And the fact that you can still make a cup of tea to someone who you would like to strangle is really special." It's amazing how we can inhabit two completely contradictory feelings at the same time. "I can't stand you, get me he- the hell out of here" and, "I can't imagine my life without you."

    26. AHAndrew Huberman53:42

        Mm-hmm.

    27. EPEsther Perel53:43

        Those things co-exist, love and hate, side by side.

12. 53:48 – 55:35

    Sponsor: Function

    1. EPEsther Perel53:48

    2. AHAndrew Huberman53:48

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13. 55:35 – 1:00:10

    Verb States of Conflict; Emotion, Narratives vs. Reality

    1. AHAndrew Huberman55:35

       There's something that I really want to revisit that you said.

    2. EPEsther Perel55:38

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman55:38

       Um, you said it incredibly clearly, but I have never heard this described, um, and I think it's so, so very important for people to hear and internalize, including me, that I'm gonna ask us to visit it again.

    4. EPEsther Perel55:52

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman55:53

       But not because you weren't clear, but just because I think it-

    6. EPEsther Perel55:55

       No, I'm curious what is it (laughs) .

    7. AHAndrew Huberman55:56

       So, as a biologist, when we teach biology, the good biologists who, uh, good teachers, w- we emphasize names only because people need to know them. This is called that, this is called that, but it's all about verbs, it's all about processes and dynamics. And what you just described as the three verb states of conflict-

    8. EPEsther Perel56:18

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman56:19

       ... I think I've never heard articulated that way. So you described, um, if I understand it correctly-

    10. EPEsther Perel56:26

        Pursuer-pursuer.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman56:27

        Right, either pursu- b- one person pursuing another.

    12. EPEsther Perel56:30

        No, pursuer-pursuer is-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman56:31

        Oh, pursuer-pursuer is, is-

    14. EPEsther Perel56:32

        ... both people go at each other.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman56:32

        ... loggerheads, okay.

    16. EPEsther Perel56:33

        And those are escalations.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman56:35

        Okay. Two arrows pointing at one another.

    18. EPEsther Perel56:37

        Two arrows, yes.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman56:38

        And not in a good way.

    20. EPEsther Perel56:39

        No.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman56:39

        (laughs) Right, right, right.

    22. EPEsther Perel56:39

        I mean, not in, in conflict it's usually not at a good way.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman56:42

        Right, right. Mm-hmm.

    24. EPEsther Perel56:43

        You know, and you, there are, a, there's a whole interpretation of an attachment style that underlies why two people of, in this situation of threat go on the attack. You have two people fighting.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman56:55

        Mm-hmm.

    26. EPEsther Perel56:55

        You have f- two people flighting-

    27. AHAndrew Huberman56:57

        Mm-hmm.

    28. EPEsther Perel56:58

        ... fleeing.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman56:58

        Mm-hmm.

    30. EPEsther Perel56:59

        And you have one person who flees and one person who fights.
14. 1:00:10 – 1:08:03

    Time Domains & Hurt; Caretaker & Romantic Relationships

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:10

       like we lose our theory of mind-

    2. EPEsther Perel1:00:12

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:12

       ... our ability to place our, ourselves in the mind of another in a, in a healthy way when we're in these stress states. I'm curious, uh, uh-

    4. EPEsther Perel1:00:20

       It's funny you call it stress states, because stress to me is so physiological that it doesn't include the relational component.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:28

       Sure.

    6. EPEsther Perel1:00:29

       I mean, there needs to be a word for stress that involves the emotional reality, and that emotional reality that now may be somewhat imagined, and this is why it's complicated, was once true.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:42

       Mm-hmm.

    8. EPEsther Perel1:00:43

       What now is an internal truth once was what really happened. And that's why we imagine and this is how we interpret the dynamic. It's, uh, it's very important to add that. So the, the past was real, there was someone in the past who actually did this to me, but when you do this, I think of them, I, I bring those two things together, I, I collapse the past and the present, and that's why I'm convinced this is what you're doing to me too.And so, how do you take somebody out of their physical and mental and emotional past to be grounding themselves into the present so that they can consider that this person that is next to them is not doing to them what once was done to them?

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:32

       Right. And my mind immediately goes to what you just described as a shift from focusing mainly on the past and how it's making us feel in the present, to how we're feeling in the present, acknowledging and understanding something did happen, it- it, that was real, as you said, and yet with this curious eye toward the future-

    10. EPEsther Perel1:01:53

        Right.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:53

        ... of what could unfold.

    12. EPEsther Perel1:01:54

        That's probably the n- hardest nugget of couple's therapy. I mean, I do individual work too, but if we talk relational therapy, this is one of those nuggets, because w- people are not aware that they are in their past. They are convinced that this is in the present. It's a collapse of time zones-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:16

        Mm-hmm.

    14. EPEsther Perel1:02:16

        ... and realities. It's what makes us so rich, it's what makes us so ab- able to be creative and artful, but it's what sometimes m- makes it very challenging for us, especially in romantic relationships. 'Cause you asked, at first, you began with romantic relationships. A lot of what we say here is true for friendships and work relationships, but there is only two relationships that mirror each other. It's the one we had with our first caretakers, mostly our parents, and the ones we have with our romantic partners.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:49

        Mm-hmm.

    16. EPEsther Perel1:02:49

        People can sit in the office and tell you, "I don't have this with anybody else." And it's true.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:54

        Mm-hmm.

    18. EPEsther Perel1:02:55

        Often. You believe 'em. Because nobody gets as close to you, and nobody elicits in you those kinds of early yearnings and- and- and- and- and emotional needs than a romantic partner, and that is very interesting. (laughs)

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:12

        Well, I don't know if it's a bug or a feature, as the, uh-

    20. EPEsther Perel1:03:15

        (laughs)

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:15

        ... engineers say, but it is remarkable to me, um, that the very same neural machinery that forms the underpinning of infant primary caretaker relationship is repurposed for romantic relationship. I mean, I marvel at that.

    22. EPEsther Perel1:03:34

        Interesting.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:34

        Right? I mean, the brain doesn't have like, "Oh, here's your developmental wiring circuits, and then guess what? You get to hit adolescence and you go through puberty and then you get this new circuit for forming a romantic attachment."

    24. EPEsther Perel1:03:44

        It's the same one.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:45

        The brain imaging shows us that it's repurposed. So it's, i- i- it's like if you got a two plus two equals four algorithm in that circuit, let's call that securely attached-

    26. EPEsther Perel1:03:54

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:54

        ... although I realize that language is not sufficient, but for just-

    28. EPEsther Perel1:03:57

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:57

        ... purposes of discussion, okay, well then great. Then you get healthy romantic attachments as adults, or you- you as an adult, and perhaps you can navigate in and out of things that are unhealthy more quickly. However, if you got a two plus two equals five algorithm wired into that circuit, well, then you're forever looking for something that won't, that is essentially dysfunctional. That's the simplest version of this.

    30. EPEsther Perel1:04:20

        Tell me more about this repurposing.
15. 1:08:03 – 1:20:15

    Couples Therapy; Language & Naming

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:03

    2. EPEsther Perel1:08:03

       You know, it's interesting because some models of couples work, of couples therapy, will say, "You have recreated with each other patterns of your early life-"

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:18

       Mm-hmm.

    4. EPEsther Perel1:08:20

       "... in order to be able to transcend them."

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:22

       Right, the, uh, repetition compulsion.

    6. EPEsther Perel1:08:25

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:25

       You, you get the same thing over and over again. Lord knows I've had that, um, and some wonderful partners.

    8. EPEsther Perel1:08:30

       (laughs)

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:30

       And by the way, as I say that, I'm also taking 50% of the responsibility, so it's a- or 100% of the responsibility for the choice. Um, as they say, you didn't have six, uh, hard relationships, you had, uh, one hard relationship six times.

    10. EPEsther Perel1:08:43

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:43

        Right? And I think, uh, Paul Conti says it that way. But that, yes, that the repetition compulsion is a unconscious attempt to resolve the core conflict that arose during early attachment.

    12. EPEsther Perel1:08:56

        Correct. Correct.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:56

        Do you subscribe to that view?

    14. EPEsther Perel1:08:58

        I think it's a very useful idea. You know, I was thinking at one point, it's like, sometimes when, when, when I listen to you and, you know, there is an exactness in the things that you describe, so often rooted in science and research, et cetera, couples therapy or psychotherapy, relationship thinking, it's, you don't have an exact answer. Um, it's, i- i- ... First of all, you don't have an exact answer because modern relationships are more complex than ever. And I don't think any relationship expert at this point can have answers. You have invitations, you have ways of thinking that are useful. And here is the question, "Is it true for me?" is answered by, to the people, does it resonate for them? If they buy it, then it's true. It's a framework. I can analyze this tableau in multiple ways. If this is the one that resonates for you, this is what we're gonna go with. And that's what makes it true. This is a very interesting thing, there's multiple ... I mean, e- to me, it's interesting because there's a whole movement within the world of psychotherapy and psychology that wants to actually become much more normatized with protocols and the same thing for everyone.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:22

        Mm-hmm.

    16. EPEsther Perel1:10:22

        I think that much of what, at least relationship therapy, which is really the world in, th- that I practice in, is, is existential and it's meaning-making, and there's a lot of ways to do that. So, um, if this interpretation works for you, be my guest. But that's not because it is more true than another. It's the one that was useful for you. And that makes you much more humble.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:49

        I love that answer.

    18. EPEsther Perel1:10:51

        It's a little bit like when you raise kids, you know?

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:53

        Mm-hmm.

    20. EPEsther Perel1:10:53

        You think that ... I used to think that all, all these things I had done with my first one, you know, is because I had such good ideas. Then I had a second one, and none of these things worked with them because it was a different person, you know? So I realized that the first one, it worked because there was a fit between my method and the person. And this is the important thing in therapy, is that it, it's an issue of that fit is what you're looking for.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:18

        We hear a lot these days about the different attachment styles or languages of love. Um, you know, the love languages, you know, people will say, "I r- you know, I emphasize, you know, gifts feel very rewarding or acts of, uh," what is it, uh, "words of affirmation," um, you know, uh, "unstructured time" or et cetera, et cetera. Or people will, I think nowadays, if they look into it a little bit, they'll, um, realize that they are either, you know, more avoidant or more anxious. These things can shift. I mean, I think it's wonderful that, that people are s- thinking about these things in the same way that I think it's wonderful that people understand that there's a molecule called dopamine that can do certain things to our tone and certain things.

    22. EPEsther Perel1:11:58

        Of course.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:58

        But I'm curious as to whether or not you feel that the, the naming of things and the assignment of oneself to a category can sometimes be limiting in terms of one's ability to really embrace this curiosity, and you also used the word invitation, and you were, you are describing couple's therapy and healthy relationship as a bit more of an art form than a reductionist protocol-oriented science, which I love because to me, you know, despite being a scientist, the, some of the great mystery of life and certainly of romantic relationship is, um, when you find yourself in happy places this, that you didn't anticipate finding yourself or in a place of, uh, forgiveness and close friendship, when at one point you can recall being, as you said, like you just, this person is like, embodies the worst things in your mind. So, I think, um, I wonder if the processes that you found useful in your clinical work, is it possible to formalize those in a way that people can start to adopt to them? Um, in other words, do you think that we can learn to navigate relationship in more healthy ways? Not just by saying, "I'm anxiously attached or avoidant or securely attached, I'm looking for someone that has that," or, "My love language is this, and they love to do that, and so therefore we're a perfect lock, lock and key." I think people are starting to think about relationship in a more, um, nuanced and sophisticated way. And yet, also what I'm hearing is-... it's a lot more dynamic than that.

    24. EPEsther Perel1:13:31

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:31

        And that some of those categorizations that we assign ourselves can really perhaps be limiting to what could be.

    26. EPEsther Perel1:13:39

        That's a great question, but I have a moment now as if I'm in the session with you where I have, like, five things that are arriving here in front of my (laughs) brain and I'm thinking, "Which one am I gonna," (laughs) "I'm gonna answer?" Um, I, I, I'm gonna actually start with just the, the actual question, but then I, I, probably is an opportunity to say a little bit about how I approach this thing. I think some naming is very useful. It frames it. It gives it a, um, a found- a, a foundation, something to hold onto. Language matters. If, we would not be having a conversation without having a shared language at this moment. But within that, you and I are using the same words and may have very different meanings attached to it. So that's the richness of the th- of the process is what do you mean when you say, "Invitation, curiosity," you know, "conflict," et cetera. When I, for example, when I do the work on conflict, I, I did provide language. For example, one of the things that happens in conflict is we have confirmation bias. That's a cognitive framework that is often present in situations of emotional conflict, of conflict which involves always something w- an emotional dimension, could be political too. Confirmation bias means that I am looking for evidence that reinforces my beliefs, and I disregard any evidence that contradicts it. Now this happens between two people, this happens between two, two parties. This is a, that's a very important naming. You know? "It's interesting. I've noticed this, this, this, this, but all you mentioned is that." Okay, cognitive, uh, bias. Another cognitive bias that is very common in, is, uh, is fundamental attribution error. You know, we have this idea that, "I, I am complex and you are more simple." (laughs) "If I, if, if I'm in a bad mood it's because there was traffic." You know, there's circumstances, there's context. "If you're in a bad mood it's because you're a cantankerous person. That's just your personality." You know, we'll categorize and totalize the behavior of others and we'll have lots of nuance and poetry (laughs) for our own. That's a concept. That concept is very useful. It's neutral, it doesn't blame anybody, and it says, "We all do this." I like that kind of naming. It's very different from the kind of naming that pathologizes people, the kind of naming that, and locks you into one identity, you know? You may have addiction, and addiction may be a really important, uh, it may have been, have destroyed your life, but to just say, "You're an addict," I've seen... so I worked in an addiction center for, for two years and, you know, people had a lot of, there were a lot of other things happening in these people's lives, and to just focus on this one thing is re- th- it, it, it reduces the person but it also reduces your ability to do something with the person. It narrows your lens. So there's always this question about, how wide is the lens that you s- that you not get overwhelmed? So you wanna make it smaller but not that small that you, that you're looking through a keyhole. A person is more complex than a keyhole, you know? We don't just treat symptoms. We, we work with lives. That's the difference of, uh, for me anyway in the work that, that we do. And that, and then when you begin to think about lives, then you start to think about culture. What is happening in the world of relationships today? It's such an incredible thing that is going on, and, and if you don't put that in the broader context, I'm trained as a systemically-oriented family therapist and that means that you're looking at the interaction of different systems. Uh, and I think that a lot of what happens is a hyper-individualization of these things, and the naming is useful when it expands your understanding. The naming is not useful when it locks you into a symptom, an, a reductionistic thing that, that gives false certainty to prophets.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:51

        I-

    28. EPEsther Perel1:17:51

        Now you got a piece of my mind. (laughs)

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:52

        ... can't agree more that yo- that naming, uh, that expands one's understanding and maybe even lends itself to a hint of curiosity-

    30. EPEsther Perel1:18:00

        Yes.
16. 1:20:15 – 1:26:20

    Sexuality in Relationships

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:15

       I'd like to explore the possibility of something that I've heard, but I don't know if it's true.

    2. EPEsther Perel1:20:20

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:21

       Um, that sex, which of course doesn't just include intercourse, but the things that lead into and out of sexual intercourse, but that sex is a microcosm for the relationship at large, meaning that the dynamics that show up in, uh, intimate interactions are somehow reflective of a larger, um, working out or, or, um, dynamic, uh, in the relationship. To what extent do you think that's true? It's a concept that I've, I've heard. Um, it, it sounds interesting and, um, uh, any discussion about sex tends to, you know, get, um, people's ears perked up-

    4. EPEsther Perel1:21:02

       (laughs)

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:02

       ... because, uh, it's, uh, depending on where you live in the world, it's either something that people talk about, um, casually, openly, or with a lot of, um, you know, uh, electricity around it. But, um, I always like to say, you know, as a biologist, we can all agree on one thing, which is that we're all here because, um, sperm met egg, if not in human, in, in dish, and then eventually in human. So we're still at, at that point in, uh, human evolution.

    6. EPEsther Perel1:21:25

       Right, right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:25

       So, um, what are your views about i- intimacy and sex as a reflection of the relationship? And here, what I'm thinking of again are these, um, when you described conflict, you described these three different, uh, uh, positioning of arrows towards one another, sep- uh, away from one another, one chasing the other. Is there a parallel, uh, for healthy relationship that we can offer up, um, in this-

    8. EPEsther Perel1:21:52

       Sexually?

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:53

       Yeah. Um, before, uh, talking about this question of whether or not, um, sex is a microcosm of the, of the larger relationship, the health of the relationship?

    10. EPEsther Perel1:22:02

        Let me start like this. I mean, I've, I, I, (laughs) I've studied sexuality for quite a few decades now and relationships, but I think maybe because of what you said around the world, love and desire are universal experiences, but the way that they are constructed are highly culturally contextual.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:25

        Mm-hmm.

    12. EPEsther Perel1:22:25

        And so the most archaic, rooted, traditional aspects of a culture or a society are lodged around its beliefs and attitudes and behaviors towards sexuality and relationships, especially the sexuality of women. American elections case in point. But this most radical progressive changes that take place in a society also occur around sexuality and relationships, sexuality of women in particular. So sexuality is a window into a society.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:58

        Mm-hmm.

    14. EPEsther Perel1:22:58

        Sexuality is also a window into a relationship and into a person that invites deep listening. One of the big challenges is that modern sexuality has been... I mean, traditional sexuality was identified with procreation. Modern sexuality is identified with performance and outcome. Sex is something you do. To which I say, let's drop the performance and outcome for a moment and let's think of it as an experience. So now you're gonna, you're gonna start to see my, the choreography I draw. When I think of sexuality as an experience, and I say sex isn't just something that you do, sex is a place you go. So my question to you is, where do you go in sex, inside yourself and with another or others? Do you go to seek deep spiritual union, a deep intimate connection, transcendence? Do you go to a place for vulnerability, a place to surrender, a place to be taken care of, a place to be safely powerful, a place to be naughty, a place to have just plain fun, a place to abdicate your responsibilities of good citizenship because sexual desire is quite politically incorrect? Where do you go in sex? What parts of yourself do you try to connect with? What is it that you're expressing there? Sexuality is a coded language for our deepest emotional needs. Our wounds, our fears, our aspirations, our, our longings. It's that, that is, you know, sex is never just sex, even when it's hit and run, and then it becomes really interesting. So one of the things that, one of the assumptions that existed very much at the heart of my field and that I challenged or questioned was that sexual problems are by definition the consequence of relationship problems. So you fix the relationship and the sex will follow. And I

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:09

        Mm-hmm.

    16. EPEsther Perel1:25:10

        ... s- together with many colleagues have helped a lot of relationships get along better, fight less, laugh more, enjoy each other, and it changed nothing in the bedroom because, in fact, maybe sexuality is not a metaphor of the relationship. Maybe sexuality is a parallel narrative to the relationship.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:31

        Mm-hmm.

    18. EPEsther Perel1:25:32

        And that, in fact, when you change the sexuality in a couple, you change the whole relationship.... but not necessarily in the other direction. So, that opened up a wh- that was one of the foundational ideas from Mating in Captivity, my first book, because I- I have been trained to think like this and- and then I began to think love and desire, they relate, but they also conflict. They're not one and the same, and they don't need the same things. They don't thrive on the same elements. And modern relationships, romantic relationships, have wanted to reconcile those two fundamental sets of human needs into one relationship. That is the grand experiment of modern love.

17. 1:26:20 – 1:31:28

    Tool: Love & Desire, Sexuality

    1. EPEsther Perel1:26:20

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:20

       And am I correct in interpreting what you just said as that love and desire are fundamentally separate, that they can exist in parallel, but that any goal of society, much less a couple, to try and unify those as one thing is not going to succeed?

    3. EPEsther Perel1:26:38

       No. No, no, not at all. It- it actually has been remarkably successful. The romantic ideal is tenacious.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:45

       Mm-hmm.

    5. EPEsther Perel1:26:45

       You know, many other philosophies and ideologies of the ni- end of the 19th century have all gone. This one has sur- sur- survived many others. So-

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:53

       I'm relieved to hear you say that.

    7. EPEsther Perel1:26:54

       ... the romantic... (laughs)

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:55

       Maybe I grew up on too many... I did- uh, n- I don't know how many romantic comedies I saw, but I-

    9. EPEsther Perel1:26:59

       (laughs)

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:59

        ... I grew up in a home where, um, love, sex, and romance were discussed in very almost ethereal terms.

    11. EPEsther Perel1:27:08

        Yeah. No, no, no. I think that it's, uh... but it is an experiment. It's not something that we have tried throughout history, in human history. So, I think that if you ask an- eh, it's an exercise I like to do sometimes, I say, "Divide your page in a s- with a line in the middle up from top to bottom." And on the top left you write, "When I think of love, I think of..." Then go to the other side, "And when I think of sexuality, I think of..." And then you go back and you say, "And when I am loved, I feel... And when I am desired, I feel... When I'm wanted... And when I love, I feel... And when I want or I desire, I feel... And when I think about the love between me and my partner," if there is a couple, "A- and when I think about the sexuality between me and my partner." And then you let people free associate about this. And th- there are words that you find back and forth, and then there are words who just never appear in the other column.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:15

        Do you recommend that, uh, couples exchange these documents?

    13. EPEsther Perel1:28:17

        Yeah, they do it at the same time.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:19

        Yeah.

    15. EPEsther Perel1:28:19

        Then they read it out loud in front of each other. I do it in groups, you know, huge audiences as well. But what I'm asking people to see is when you look at what you responded in both categories, create a line between those two. Is it a thick line, like what happens in love is completely separate from me than what happens in desire? I need a complete different set of things. I express myself differently, I interact differently. Or is it very much that when this exists, it completely ignites that? They are interrelated, interdependent, one feeds on each other, one reinforces the other. There is a degree of variety about that. For some people, love and desire are inseparable.

Episode duration: 2:06:13