Huberman LabHow to Increase Your Emotional Intelligence | Dr. Marc Brackett
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,019 words- 0:00 – 2:02
Dr. Marc Brackett
- AHAndrew Huberman
(uptempo music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Marc Brackett. Dr. Marc Brackett is a professor of psychology at Yale University and the director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He is one of the world's foremost experts on emotions, meaning what emotions are and how they regulate our relationship to ourself and others. Today's discussion gets heavily into how we should think about our emotions and the emotional expressions of others and when and how we should regulate those emotions. This is a very important aspect of our life, because as we all know, emotions are present with us from the moment we are born until the moment we die. So much like having a body, we need to learn how to work with our emotions in order to have the best quality of life. We all know that we are supposed to pay attention to our emotions, but at the same time, we are often told that we shouldn't take all of our emotions seriously, nor should we react to all of our emotions with behaviors, and indeed, that is true. What's been lacking, however, and what Dr. Marc Brackett finally delivers to us, is a roadmap to think about our emotions in a very structured way and thereby to engage with our emotions, sometimes shift our emotions, and certainly to understand the emotional expressions of others in ways that best serve our quality of life. So today's discussion centers very heavily on scientific data that plays out in the real world that, that we can all use. We talk about conflict resolution. We talk about how to think about and work with emotions. We talk about bullying, both in children and in adults, how to deal with that sort of thing effectively, and we talk about emotional intelligence, which it turns out can be increased at any stage of life. So by the end of today's discussion, you will be armed with a tremendous amount of new knowledge and many new tools, many new protocols that you can immediately apply in your life in order to improve your relationship to yourself and to others.
- 2:02 – 6:03
Sponsors: BetterHelp, Eight Sleep & Eudēmonia
- AHAndrew Huberman
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise. Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about the issues that are most critical to you. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance. And third, expert therapy should provide insights, insights that are useful in allowing you not just to feel better in your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, to be better, to be better in terms of the relationship to yourself, your professional life, and to others, and of course, to things like your career goals. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy for you to find an expert therapist with whom you have these critical components of therapy. Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into your busy schedule with no commuting to a therapist's office or looking for parking or sitting in a waiting room. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night. One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep makes it incredibly easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for well over three years now, and it has completely transformed my sleep for the better. Eight Sleep recently launched their newest generation pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra. The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and it also has snoring detection that, remarkably, will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring. If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra. Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman. I'm excited to share that I'll be speaking at a health summit called Eudemonia, taking place in West Palm Beach, Florida, this November 1st, 2024, through the 3rd of November, 2024. Eudemonia is an in-person event that offers science-backed tools, live fitness classes, and a range of treatments and protocols to optimize your physical and your mental health. I'll be giving a keynote talk with none other than Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Saturday. As some of you may know, she's a former guest on the Huberman Lab Podcast and has a terrific podcast of her own. That's going to be on November 2nd, and we will discuss all things neuroscience and neuroplasticity. We'll talk about some of the benefits and protocols related to cognition and mood and much more. Also presenting at Eudemonia are other excellent scientists and clinicians who've appeared on the Huberman Lab Podcast, including Dr. Sara Gottfried, Dr. Zachary Knight, and Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris, along with nearly 70 other experts. To see the full lineup of speakers and topics and to register, visit eudemonia.net, spelled E-U-D-E-M-O-N-I-A.net. It's sure to be a terrific gathering, and I hope to see you there. And now for my discussion with Dr. Marc Brackett.Dr.
- 6:03 – 11:18
What is Emotional Intelligence?; Self & Others
- AHAndrew Huberman
Marc Brackett, welcome.
- MBMarc Brackett
Thank you. Great to be here.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm excited to talk to you today about many things related to emotions. We hear the word emotions and we have all sorts of ideas about what they are, what they aren't. We also hear about emotional intelligence quite a lot these days, and I have a feeling that the way it's discussed is often not the way it really is. So to just kick things off, could you clarify for me, for everyone, what is emotional intelligence? What does it pertain to? And then maybe we can use that as a way to drill into the deeper question of what are emotions?
- MBMarc Brackett
Sure. I think, you know, at the simplest level, it's how we reason with and about our emotions and feelings. That's like the simple definition. The way I talk about it is as a set of skills, and we use the acronym RULER to describe those skills. The first is recognizing emotions. So I'm trying to read your facial expression right now, right? Are you interested or are you bored already? I'm trying to understand emotions. Where are they coming from? Like, why am I feeling this way? What's the consequence of that feeling? The third is labeling emotions, so being precise with the words that we use to describe our feelings. The fourth is expressing emotions, knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across context and culture. And then the big one is the final R, which is regulating emotions. What are the strategies we use to help us deal with everyday emotions?
- AHAndrew Huberman
So if I were to take an emotional intelligence test, would it have me looking at pictures of facial expressions? Would it have me reading paragraphs about emotional exchanges and gauging who felt what and why and how, um, that sort of thing?
- MBMarc Brackett
If you were to take a test from like 20 years ago, yes. We try to be a little bit more innovative now in our measurement of the skills. So, for example, I just finished with a bunch of colleagues publishing a test of emotion perception, but it's not static images. It's, uh, video clips, um, that are around three to four seconds that show subtle emotions. Uh, it's about vocal tone, it's about body language, and we're trying to get people to, um, accurately kind of label these emotions in faces, body, and voice.
- AHAndrew Huberman
When I think about most uses of the words emotional intelligence, it seems to correlate, again, in a very non-scientific way, seems to correlate with one's ability to tolerate others' emotions and make sense of the emotions of others. For instance, I've heard it said before, not about me, that so-and-so has high emotional intelligence because in the presence of their child or someone else's kid reacting in a certain way, they were able to see, "Ah, they just feel blank, and therefore they are screaming." As opposed to defaulting to a, um, you know, a broad binning of what they were observing and saying, "Oh my goodness, that kid is a brat," for instance.
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You're describing emotional intelligence as a self-perception as well.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, and so is our task therefore to do the equivalent of what, in my little anecdote, this other person was doing to be able to parse one's own emotions in a fine enough way to understand the experience in kind of a third person way, that one can regulate their behavior, what they say, how they act? Um, how much is recognition of others' emotions and understanding of those as opposed to one's recognition and understanding of their own emotions factoring into this thing that we call emotional intelligence?
- MBMarc Brackett
So the whole set of skills are intra and interpersonal. That's really important. It's about self and others always. For example, right now we are co-regulating each other's emotions, right? Our facial expressions, our vocal tones, we're influencing how we each other... How we feel. Um, when you think about the recognition piece, we'll just start there, right? There's self-awareness, like Marc, how are you feeling right now? And I'm, you know, I'm having mixed emotions, right? This is a great podcast. I want to be articulate, you know, I'm excited, but I'm a little, you know, overwhelmed 'cause I got so much I want to share, but I don't know how much I'm gonna share. So there's like all that awareness of my emotion. Sometimes I have language for it, sometimes I don't, like any of us. And that's why it starts off with kind of just a general awareness, like, am I pleasant? Am I unpleasant? Do I have a lot of energy or do I feel depleted? And we call that, you know, your core affect. And then I could start asking myself questions like, "Well, what are you doing right now, Marc?" Well, I'm sitting across from Andrew being interviewed. Oh, okay. Well how does that... What, what comes up for you with that? And then I try to label that feeling. So that's like the R, the U, and the L of emotional intelligence for the self. And I'm doing the same thing for you. I'm looking at your facial expressions, your body language, I'm listening to you. I'm trying to understand if I say something, do you shift? And I'm trying to put language to it so it's self and other.
- 11:18 – 18:52
Language & Emotion
- AHAndrew Huberman
So given that we're both scientists interested in emotions, uh, you're the expert, uh, I'm, uh, also just the student today, um, I think it's worth pointing out to people that there isn't one location in the brain that governs this complex process that you just described. It's a network-wide phenomenon. But you did mention the body. You, you mentioned feeling, you know, how is one feeling both in brain and body. To what extent does somebody who has high emotional intelligence have more or less body awareness or somatic awareness as opposed to somebody who's "in their head?" Put differently, can somebody who's very much in their head, who has very poor body awareness have high emotional intelligence?
- MBMarc Brackett
Well, I think another big deal about emotional intelligence is that we like to think of it as, or people think of it as this construct.I don't think that's the best way to look at it. I think it's much more interesting to look at it as a set of discrete skills that come together. They're not that highly correlated, and so, you know, it's, I really like to think of them as emotion skills, and that within the R, the U, the L, the E, and the R that I described, there are sub-skills. And so part of what you're talking about is the body awareness. Some people are more cognitive, you know? They're just very language oriented. Some people, you know, a lot of therapists, somatic, you know, talking about somatosensory things. All good. I think in the end, though, you know, this is why I teach this stuff, is that, uh, we have to know how we feel. We gotta know what we wanna do with those feelings, and we have to know how the people we live with and love and work with and teach, how they feel too. And so we need language in the end.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Some years ago, I went to this course. It was, you know, broadly could be described as personal development. It was interesting. It was grounded in science and psychology, and each day would start with going around the circle, as typically is done at these things, and you'd have to say how you feel. But you couldn't use evaluation. You couldn't say good or bad or so-so, and I found it very difficult. I found it difficult for a number of reasons. First of all, I don't think I was ever trained to use specific language for my feelings. In fact, I don't think I was ever trained to understand what feelings were. In fact, I know neuroscientists and psychologists are still trying to figure out (laughs) what feelings and emotions really are. So, um, a couple of questions. When it comes to using language to describe our emotions, how important do you feel it is to have a broad buffet of options? A previous guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett, and I talked about this a bit, and she mentioned that in some cultures, there's very specific language for specific emotions. In fact, there's even a word to describe the f- feeling of sadness one has in a particular culture after getting a really bad haircut.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Which is incredible when one thinks about it.
- MBMarc Brackett
We all know what that feels like. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right. We know what it feels like. Right. But there isn't, uh, to my knowledge, uh-
- MBMarc Brackett
We don't have the word.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... a word for that in the English language. I mean, I'm sure there's a curse word for it in the English language.
- MBMarc Brackett
Exactly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But, uh, not necessarily for that specific feeling, um, or unique to that specific feeling. So, what is the relationship between language labels and emotion? And I ask that as a way to kind of wedge into the RULER approach.
- MBMarc Brackett
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? Because as you pointed out, the, one recognizes, understands labels and then, but the label is central, literally, to the, uh, RULER approach.
- MBMarc Brackett
It is. Yeah, so I like, I'm very similar to Lisa in terms of there are emotion concepts or categories. Well, let's use the anger category. If you only have one word for anger, that means all you know is there's one form of anger. But if you start teaching people, well, there are other words that we could use like peeved, irritated, angry, enraged, livid, and you have rich conversations, which is what I do in schools with kids and teachers themselves. Like what is, when you're feeling peeved, like what, what are the things that make you feel peeved versus the things that make you feel enraged? What does it feel like in your body when you're feeling that way? Granted that everybody feels things differently in their bodies. That really doesn't matter. What matters is that we have a common language and a common understanding of what these emotions are, because otherwise we can't communicate. You know, I- I'm really, like this is a big deal for me in terms of, uh, having a common language within a community to talk about emotion, because you, right now, right, we're in a crisis of anxiety. I'm not 100% bought into that. I think that people use the word anxiety, um, improperly. Um, anxiety is about uncertainty about the future, if we're gonna define it. It's different than stress, you know? There's different forms of stress as you know, but the distress, right, is usually when you have too many demands and not enough resources, which is different than when you're overwhelmed, right, which is my emotion of the year, which is I'm just saturated, like, you know, what's, I can't even figure out what's going on anymore, which is also different from fear. And that's, we call that emotion differentiation or granularity people call it. They're, they're slightly different. The differentiation is like between emotions and the granularity might be within the emotion. But from my work, um, just to go on f- about this for a moment, the best example I have is I do a lot of corporate training, and so I'm in a room filled with lawyers or executives and I'm s- ask them how they're feeling. Nobody's really sure how they're feeling, like you were saying. And then I'll do these little kind of quizzes with them. "Tell me the difference, you got three minutes in a group, anxiety, stress, pressure, fear, overwhelmed." And they come back and the, the number one response is, "They're all the same." And I'm like, "Really? Take another few minutes. Like try to f- like just try to define them." They can't even define them. They say things like, you know, "One is internal, one is external. One is, you know, one is higher energy and lower energy." I'm like, "I, I get that, but how do you, what, what do these concepts mean to you? What do they mean to you?" Anyhow, um, finally we get to like the definitions and then I say, you know, "Who cares? Like why am I asking you to like understand these differences? Go back to your groups and talk about it." (laughs) And then after like, this is like a 45 minute, like you, I thought this was gonna be like a two-minute activity. It turns into like a 45 minute to an hour exercise because they finally realize, "Oh yeah, so if I'm anxious because I'm worrying about the future, you know, maybe the breathing exercise is not gonna be as helpful."Um, because maybe I need a cognitive strategy to say, you know, "Marc, stop worrying about the stock market. Marc, stop worrying about that the university closed down because of the pandemic. You got no control over the university's decisions." And so, helping people make connections between the feeling and the reason for the feeling, from my perspective, has been very helpful to help them learn how to regulate the emotion.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So connecting the feeling and the reason for the feeling-
- MBMarc Brackett
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... as opposed to just labeling the feeling.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah. You need to know why. It's the why, the why that you really have to deal with.
- 18:52 – 24:35
Emojis; Anger vs. Disappointment; Behavior & Emotion
- AHAndrew Huberman
How do you feel about emojis? From everything you're saying, they seem like m- more than, um, benign to me.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah. Same.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I mean, I, I could, um, imagine that the emojification of culture, as I refer to it, I don't think that's a real word.
- MBMarc Brackett
It's all right. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
All right, uh, it is now. Um, set up a Wikipedia page tomorrow. Emojification, um, is a serious problem because it's what we call in science, uh, too much lumping.
- MBMarc Brackett
Exactly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
In science, we have lumpers and splitters.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? And, um, both can have fabulous careers, but if you lump too much or split too much, you create more confusion and you often create problems. And I just see emojis as lumping this incredible, um, set of different continuums within us that we call emotions-
- MBMarc Brackett
Exactly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... into literally a, a small icon, and I can imagine this would lead to all sorts of problems, not just in communication, but in understanding our own emotions. Put differently, do you think that the use of emojis has degraded our level of emotional intelligence and processing?
- MBMarc Brackett
I mean, I haven't done the research, but from my perspective, it's not helpful because the goal is to get granular, you know? Um, think about the difference, and I'm not gonna quiz you right now, but anger and disappointment. Do you know that 95% of the people that I ask to define those two things cannot do it?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, I mean, right, right off the cuff, I'll just say, you know, I'm familiar with both of those feelings. I know they're different. I can sense their difference. I mean, but the disappointment piece, um, yeah, it could be directed outward or inward. I'm, I'd have to work systematically through until I found a violation of one or the other. So, uh, where an example applied to one and not the other, and it would take me a few minutes longer-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... longer than I want this audience to have to wait.
- MBMarc Brackett
There you go.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- MBMarc Brackett
So we should just t-
- AHAndrew Huberman
So I got an F. (laughs)
- MBMarc Brackett
(laughs) But you have a growth mindset, so you're okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There you go. Yeah.
- MBMarc Brackett
But the, you know, so disappointment, unmet expectations. Everything was legit, it just didn't work out. Anger, perceived injustice. And that's a really important distinction because if you're a parent or someone at work and someone is like yelling and screaming, firstly, we grossly, you know, make mistakes in terms of labeling emotion from behavior. We gotta just throw that out. There's no correlation really between behavior and emotion. I can stomp my feet, you know, as a boy because I'm feeling sad just because it's more culturally acceptable for me to stomp than to cry. And so, "Why are you so angry?" "Well, maybe I'm feeling shame," which is my experience, you know? I was yelling and screaming as a kid 'cause I was being bullied so much. And then my mother would be like, you know, "Who do you think you are talking to me that way?" And then my father would say, "Go to your room." And I'd be like, "Is anybody reading my, you know, emotions properly or asking me how I'm feeling?" Because you would know that I'm acting out because of fear and shame. Never happened because a variety of reasons of, you know, triggering my parents, and they didn't have such high emotional intelligence. They loved me, just didn't have high emotional intelligence. And so going back to the anger/disappointment one, unmet expectations versus perceived injustice. And so when you think about it in terms of the strategy, like for example, um, my other career, just so you know, was as a martial arts teacher. So I have a fifth degree black belt in a Korean martial art called Hapkido. So if this podcast doesn't go so well... (laughs) Um, anyhow, the, um, you know, I was an awkward kid, had a, you know, very insecure, low self-esteem. I got into the martial arts. I thought, "I'm gonna get my yellow belt and I'm gonna feel tough and proud." Failed my freaking yellow belt test. I mean, at 13 years old. You couldn't imagine, like there's nothing worse for a 13-year-old kid who's feeling shame and being bullied to fail their yellow belt test. So what do I do? I go home, "I hate karate. I'm never going back to karate." Everybody's in uproar. I'm getting yelled at, "I'm paying for your karate. You're going back to..." you know, whatever. And the truth was like, let's think about that for a minute. So, I go to take the test, and I've gotta do my blocks and my kicks, you know, my punches. I know there's five kicks, there's five punches. And let's say I do them the best I can, but the sensei just says, "You know, Marc, just not good enough. You know, you're not ready yet." That's legitimate disappointment. I expected to pass. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I didn't pass. I'm feeling disappointed. So the strategy for that is what? Like, "Tutor, help. Show me what I have to do better." On the other hand, let's say, which was true for me, that some of the kids who were the bullies in my middle school also took karate. And let's imagine they're watching me take my test and they're giving me some dirty looks because they're gonna, you know, threaten me and which did happen, you know, you know, getting changed going, you know, like, "Wait till you see what it's gonna be like for you tomorrow on the way to school." Now how am I feeling? Terrorized, fearful. And I fail my test because of that. So you can see how I could show up with a particular behavior. Um, people are attributing emotion to me. They're labeling my emotions for me because they don't have the skill...
- MBMarc Brackett
... to deactivate as a parent or a teacher or partner, to be present, to help me understand my experience and then label my experience, understand where it's coming from, and then strategize accordingly.
- 24:35 – 26:05
Sponsor: AG1
- MBMarc Brackett
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 26:05 – 31:24
Parent/Teacher Support; Online Etiquette
- AHAndrew Huberman
You said that disappointment is when one does everything essentially correctly, meaning gave the, as much effort as they could, et cetera, and, and it didn't work out-
- MBMarc Brackett
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... versus anger, which is perceived injustice.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Would you say that your response to not getting your yellow belt then, because as a fifth degree-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... black belt now, clearly you, you got that yellow belt eventually, I want to hear that part of the story too-
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, that you were experiencing anger? I- in this case, could we even call it inappro- inappropriate anger? Simply inappropriate because what you really needed to understand was this notion of disappointment, but no one had taught it to you?
- MBMarc Brackett
I think what you're getting at though is this, like, not knowing how you're feeling 'cause I was never taught language, right? And having an experience that is, you know, could be many feelings at once, which is, could be disappointment, could be anger, could be embarrassment, um, but you got to unpack the situation, you know. What was the real event that happened? What really happened in that moment? And so if it were legitimate, like, legitimate test, and I just, you know, I blocked the punch and I just didn't have the strength to block it, you know, like to really stand firm, it's disappointment. It's like, it's, "Son, you know, like, you thought, you know, your blocks were strong. Unfortunately, you need some work. Let's practice every day after school together. We're going to get these blocks down so you can get that yellow belt test." There's no other reason. If it's because the bullies are staring at me and I'm not capable of dealing with the, those piercing eyes that are at me and I'm feeling so anxious and overwhelmed and I just can't block because I'm just freaked out, that's a whole nother story. Do you see how, like, a parent or a teacher would, um, have to really differentiate their support? But you have to really get at the experience, which means we have to have relationships that are trustworthy, loving, caring with all people, because otherwise we don't build that connection to really understand how people feel. We just take the kind of behavior and we're like, "Why are you behaving that way?" You know, "Go to your room," or, you know, "Just practice." It's like, no, like, I've been bullied at school and now the bully is threatening me. Like, that's serious stuff that needs to be taken care of.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know, online, um, emojis and, you know, downward facing thumbs versus upward facing thumbs and this kind of thing, and, you know, uh, vomit, uh, emojis and things like that, a mind blown, that I'm starting to realize that these may be doing far more harm than we realize, um, in this-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, I think it's fun, you know, and maybe it's just, if you want to just use it for fun, not a problem. If we're gonna use it to really communicate, not so great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm thinking of instances where people are just using these, um, with the intention of expressing their, like, dislike of something-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but that the people on the receiving end, um, experience a lot of, um, kind of, uh, self- self-criticism as a consequence.
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mostly kids, but adults too.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I know some adults that really can't handle somebody commenting on their Instagram post, like, big L or-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... something like that, or-
- MBMarc Brackett
It's devastating for people.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... or nope, or this kind of thing. It's also interesting because I see it even in the academic community, especially on Twitter, X-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... where I know that, um, sure, people reject each other's papers, critique each other's papers, but they do that with a degree of, um, intellectual nuance that, um, transmits a sense of care, right? If scientists really care, then they're gonna do a careful review, um, as much as we would-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... all love the, this is a perfect paper, that's it, um, no critique.
- MBMarc Brackett
Exactly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
When somebody critiques something that we do with, um, with an attention to detail, provided it's fair, we, we feel cared for.
- MBMarc Brackett
Totally.
- 31:24 – 35:46
Anonymity, Online Comments
- AHAndrew Huberman
- MBMarc Brackett
I, and amenity, you know, causes challenges. It's funny 'cause I gave a speech at Twitter, now known as X, about five years ago and, um, and had analyzed quite a lot of data. You know, it was actually, uh, the year that Mariah Carey sang and it got messed up. And I just, it was like the week before, I was going in January, it was like New Year's Eve, and I just was curious and, 'cause it really was a mess up. And I said, "What, how are people gonna respond?" And it was 99.99% ripping this amazing diva to shreds.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So she, I, I don't recall this incident. So she's o- o- obviously phenomenally talented, but-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... she made an e- an error?
- MBMarc Brackett
There was something with the mic.
- AHAndrew Huberman
God forbid she made an error.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, there was something with the mic.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or someone else. Oh, goodness.
- MBMarc Brackett
You know? And she just basically, like the mic wasn't working the way she wanted it to work and she's like, "I'm outta here." (laughs) Just kid- like, "I'm not singing." And you should've seen how people just, I mean, millions and millions and millions of, of comments, you know, like, and I'm not gonna repeat what people said 'cause it was really disgusting and I got really curious, like, like what about things like, "Gosh, you've like won 15 Grammy Awards, like this must really sting for you." Maybe one post like that. And so it does make you wonder about, A, the type of person who is interested in commenting, like we may have a bias there. I do, I do think we have a bias there. You know, people who, you know, they feel protected by, you know, something. If it's, you know, a, a more famous person in politics, obviously people are very clear (laughs) how they feel.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Politicians sort of open themselves up to it.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, they do.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Public-facing people in general, I- I've heard, um, open themselves up to it.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But, um, politicians in particular. I think we give, we sort of give the general public a pass to say almost anything about them, but it's, it's not pretty.
- MBMarc Brackett
It's not pretty and it's not emotionally intelligent, to go back to the concept, right? It's like what's your goal here? Like I always ask people that, like, like, "What are you getting out of being nasty?"
- AHAndrew Huberman
I perceive it as evacuative. I, I look at that and I think, "Gosh, what they must feel inside to be able to say those things. C- can't be good." But maybe it feels good to them, I don't know. I don't know.
- MBMarc Brackett
It might.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm, I'm not, I don't th- I don't think I've ever made a negative comment. If I have, um, someone can call me out on it. Hopefully it w- it was in sarcasm with a friend-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... as the target, um, and they were okay with it or happy with it. But I don't know what internal emotional or psychological state it would take to go say something cruel to somebody online.
- MBMarc Brackett
You know, in my earlier research, um, with Facebook, we, we analyzed millions and millions of posts. And, you know, people can be intentionally mean and hurtful, just people wanna rip people to shreds and they wanna instill fear. Um, and, you know, it's very hard to disentangle that too, just to be honest. So like, what we found in our research was that I could say if you're like, you're, Andrew's wearing a black shirt, you'll see that. I could say like, "Nice shirt." And it might mean, "Nice shirt," or it might mean, "I'm making fun of your shirt." And it's just hard, like that's, that's the problem, you know, with, with social media in terms of posts. We don't really know, 'cause the person who's receiving it has a story, right? That was one challenge we found a- around like getting posts taken down, was that it was hard to have that objective criterion of what was, you know, painful to a person, which is why what we tried to do was help the person who was receiving the content communicate in a way with the person who posted the content to get them to take it down. And what we found was that it actually worked really well. If you taught a teenager, for example, to say, "Hey, you know, hey Andrew, like that comment you made really was hurtful. Would you please take it down?" We were more likely to get people to take it down. And what we found in experimental research was that if we just let people go, uh, you know, on their own devices, um, it tended to be more retaliatory, like, "Who the F do you think you are?" You know, you, you want to fight back, you know? And that did not motivate the person to take it down. So, even meeting gross behavior with compassion can be helpful.
- 35:46 – 41:33
Happiness vs. Contentment; Knowing Oneself
- MBMarc Brackett
- AHAndrew Huberman
Can we provide a counter-example for the anger versus disappointment that's on the positive valence-
- MBMarc Brackett
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... side? Um, what's a positive set of feelings that people often conflate?
- MBMarc Brackett
Like happiness and contentment.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, that's a tough one for m- I'm, I'm getting Fs all around, you know? (laughs)
- MBMarc Brackett
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Good thing I became a biologist.
- MBMarc Brackett
Ecstatic and elated.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Okay.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah. This is, you know, this is why I do what I do.
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is tough. Yeah. So, um, parse those for us.
- MBMarc Brackett
And so, I'm good at this.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Yes, you are.
- MBMarc Brackett
You know, when you think about happiness, you know, it's usually about, you know, when you're achieving something, right? You're gonna, I'm g- I'm gonna be happy when. Um, you know, this will bring me happiness. Contentment is the opposite. Contentment is everything is just great as it is. I feel complete. I have enough. And part of my argument against the happiness research is that we don't spend enough time helping people strive for contentment and we push people to strive for happiness, which there's research to show, you know, backfires, you know? If you're waking up every day saying, "What am I gonna do today to be happy? What am I gonna do to be happy?"... chances are, you know, it's not going to work out a lot, and that kind of backfires to create more despair. More-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Uh, sorry to interrupt, but I, as soon as you describe contentment that way ... and thank you for parsing those two. Very useful, um, to me. Um, as soon as you describe contentment that way, I imagine waking up and rather than thinking about what needs to be done and the things I want to achieve, which I want to achieve, they bring me joy.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'll throw in a third word there just to confuse (laughs) myself. Um, this notion of contentment the way that you described, I could see might lead me to pay attention to how good it feels to have gotten some sleep, to, um, you know, I sleep well most nights but what, what a, a privilege that is, um, and to, you know, maybe feel the comfort of the, the comforter and, and the mattress for a moment before barging into the day-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, to chase happiness, as it were.
- MBMarc Brackett
Exactly. I think, you know, the idea that we have to be happy all the time is also ridiculous. I mean, I'm an neurotic professor, like I'm never happy. (laughs) You know, you know, it's just, it's tough. And so, and also, like, I don't know about you but given that my dispositional affect, another term, uh, you know, is more on the lower energy, kind of contented, a little anxiety, um, when I'm around the people who are like high energy and pleasant all the time, I have a difficult time. You know, it's like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because you somehow feel like you're not living up to some standard?
- MBMarc Brackett
No, I just feel like overwhelmed and smothered by it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, interesting.
- MBMarc Brackett
You know, it's like stop being so happy all the time. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Uh, uh, here's where I get to appropriately make a joke about ... because before we started we were talking about East Coast schools versus West Coast schools.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I was like maybe you come west for, and, um, and that'll change, or, or maybe you're right where you belong there at the also phenomenal-
- MBMarc Brackett
Uh-huh.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... university that is Yale. But anyway, that's kind of inside ball stuff. East Coast university is amazing, Midwest university is amazing, West Coast university is amazing. Different perceived temperaments but-
- 41:33 – 51:28
Introversion & Extroversion; Personality & Emotional Intelligence
- AHAndrew Huberman
the introversion, extroversion bit is going to, um, prick up people's ears. It certainly did mine. Um, I like time alone. I also like time alone in the presence of many people. In fact, I get my best work done always either alone in nature or in Manhattan where there are people around me but I'm completely isolated at the same time.
- MBMarc Brackett
I love that too.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, um, how should we think about introversion and extroversion? These things get thrown around so much in popular culture. Are there some solid scientific studies that support that introversion can best be defined as blank and extroversion as blank? And I'm guessing there's a range there. It's gotta be on a continuum. It can't be two bins.
- MBMarc Brackett
I mean, for some people it's very clear, you know? They are a clear traded introvert, and for some people they're just like endlessly extroverted no matter ... they wake up wanting to be with people, they, at the end of the day they want to go out with people more. And so what research shows, for example, with creative people is they tend to be both. They tend to be high introverts and high extroverts, which is interesting, right? They're introverts when they're doing their art and then they're extroverts when they're out there selling their art, which is hard for some artists, right? Because a lot of artists are kind of introspective and they're creative types but they really struggle with getting out there and being that extroverted like, "Look at my art."And so, you're the- you're the lucky artist if you are traded in both directions. Um, I think the easiest way to think about it is just this, it's a proclivity, right? It's a proclivity to, um, how you wanna use your energy. And, um, the introvert is more a container. You know, wants to contain their energy. Um, they want to, um, you know, be in small groups. They want kind of less frenetic environments. And the extrovert just has a proclivity for, you know, more sensation seeking, you know, larger social groups. And again, it's a preference. I always say I'm an introvert with pretty good social skills. Like I can appear to be extroverted and most people think I'm outgoing. And I always tell like, "I don't even like people that much." (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
You seem very outgoing.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, I'm not. You know, it's just not, it's not my- my natural... Like if I'm at a party, I struggle with, like- like what- what am I gonna do here?
- AHAndrew Huberman
When you say you don't necessarily like people that much-
- MBMarc Brackett
I'm joking.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I realize you're joking, but, um, and I was just going to, uh, make sure to ask 'cause I can't presume, that doesn't mean that you dislike people. It's just that being in the presence of a lot of people doesn't draw you, um, out to want to be closer to or get to know all these people simply because they're there. Whereas an extrovert seems to really like forming and, um, engaging in new- new relationships, old relationships, all relationships, relating.
- MBMarc Brackett
Exactly. If you're like running a campaign to run for, you know, mayor of your town, like you're gonna, you wanna hire an extroverted PR person, right? An extroverted person do marketing 'cause they're like gonna be out there like banging on the doors, not very comfortable talking to people, right? The introvert is gonna be better at doing the accounting, you know, and doing the planning. And we've- we've done this research actually, ev- even fun with my students. I would have them take their, um, take measures of their valid measures of introversion and extroversion. I would score them into groups, like the really extroverted group and the really introverted group, and I'd have them plan a party. Just go plan a party. And the group of extroverts there's bonfires, there's beer, there are loud music on the beach. And the introverts are like, "We have to make sure we have good napkins." (laughs) We wanna, you know, we're gonna have four people. You know, it's gonna be quiet music. That's just, you know, how we're built.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Interesting. When I think of throwing a great party, and I've thrown a few, what I like to think were great parties, it involves inviting a bunch of people over and then being able to stand back from a lot of it and not have to participate in all of it. I just like seeing friends that didn't know each other start to interact.
- MBMarc Brackett
That's cool.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's fun for me. And then, um, if I have to communicate directly with too many people at the party, I- I would definitely feel drained. I- I'm known to retreat to a room and take a nap or disappear Yeah. So maybe you are more introverted.
- MBMarc Brackett
... in the middle of a party. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Uh, Rick Rubin, who's- Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... world, uh, renowned for his, uh, creative insights and, uh, and creativity and for being Rick, um, I think once said on a podcast perhaps, or maybe he said this to me, um, that Tom Petty was the sort of person that basically didn't do anything besides write music and read books and interact with the small number of people in his inner circle. And the idea of leaving the house was just completely overwhelming to him. Now, of course, people were always approaching him, but like really, really extreme introvert. Whereas Rick has described, and I won't name names here, um, other famous people, musicians and otherwise that go out specifically to try and get the attention of fame.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And if they don't, they feel absolutely isolated.
- MBMarc Brackett
Makes sense.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Even though they have people in their private life. It's sort of like, it becomes a kind of extroversion requirement. I would imagine life is much harder for the extrovert in the long run because you, there's-
- MBMarc Brackett
The research shows-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... so much mean there.
- MBMarc Brackett
... the extroverts tend to do, you know, have a little bit more success, um, because they're more willing to get out there and ask for it. You know, they get higher, they get raises more quickly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I see.
- MBMarc Brackett
And, you know, in my work in schools, you know, I always ask teachers to pay attention to the personality of their students because the introvert has a lot of great ideas, they're just not dying to raise their hand and get the attention. So don't just call on the kids who are raising their hands because you're missing out on getting some great information.
- AHAndrew Huberman
In that case, um, do you cold call on people? Whenever I'm teaching, I- I somewhat reluctant to cold call on people because it, I- I recall it can be terrifying when suddenly you're sitting there taking notes trying to, you know, organize your thoughts around what the material and then suddenly, you know, the whole room's looking at you. (laughs)
- MBMarc Brackett
It's a, I mean, I set expectations, you know, around that and I, 'cause I'm really particular about that because, you know, it drives me crazy when the, you know, the talkative extrovert is always, you know, getting their thing said. Um, I think there's ways, there's good instructional practices that can help with that. One thing I'm thinking about though is this intersection of personality and emotional intelligence. You just kind of brought that up for me, which is, and people confuse those a lot. So for example, I even confused it when I was younger before I studied it because I'm high also in neuroticism, meaning I am more mercurial in terms of I worry about things and I'm fine, then I worry again. I just, that's who I am, and I just always assumed that someone who is high in neuroticism or you know, more as I said, kind of volatile emotionally, that was this low emotional intelligence, because like how could you be emotionally intelligent if you're emotionally volatile? And then I did all this research and found there's pretty much no correlation between personality traits and emotional intelligence. And why is that? Well, think about it. If you are someone who is more even keeled, maybe you don't even have that much of an opportunity to-Regulate your emotions, right? But then if you get, like, triggered, you've, you've never had experience, so you've... It's actually harder for you. Someone like me, I'm practicing (laughs) it all the time, right? I'm always like, I'm in a bad mood and I gotta give a meeting. I'm, like, irritable, I gotta give a presentation. So, I'm, like, constantly, like, figuring out how to deal with my emotions and, um, and that's why they're... It's... They're separate concepts. And in addition to it, just to build on this, knowing your personality traits can be extraordinarily helpful for choosing the best strategies to regulate your emotions. Why is that? I was traveling in Australia recently, and I gave this speech to a group of people. The person who was the person in charge of the speech... Uh, it was about an hour from Melbourne, and, um, I took the train 'cause I preferred to stay in the city. Took the train I was planning to take. I had bought my train ticket back. The convener said, "You know, Marc, I just really would love to be with you and can we just, you know... Can I drive you back to your hotel?" And I'm thinking to myself, like, "That is the worst thing you could ever ask me."
- AHAndrew Huberman
And on the wrong side of the road.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, and I had my train ticket. I really... It was a full day of presentations and stuff. I really wanted to be by myself to decompress, but I felt bad and I said, "Sure." The guy talked to me for, like (laughs) , an hour, like he was just nonstop talk to me. I got back to my hotel, I was like, "I am gonna have a nervous breakdown." (laughs) Like, "I need another day to recover because..." And it just... It annoyed me about myself not practicing, you know, what I teach, which was, "Marc, know thyself. You're drained. Be polite." You know? It was my insecurity of just saying, "You know, I really appreciate you wanting to drive me back, but you know, I really have a lot to do tomorrow. I need to rest my voice. I need to, you know, do some prep." Instead, I just sat there, like, you know, shaking and, like, you know, having... Like, just went crazy. So, do you see what I'm getting at? Like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- MBMarc Brackett
... really knowing yourself in terms of, like, what drives you and what your... You know, your personality traits, just introversion and extroversion alone, and how that relates to, like, your selection of strategies is so important.
- 51:28 – 52:40
Sponsor: LMNT
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to take a brief break to thank one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Now, I and others on the podcast have talked a lot about the critical importance of hydration for proper brain and bodily function. Research shows that even a slight degree of dehydration can really diminish cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes in order for your body and brain to function at their best. The electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium are critical for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or nerve cells. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days if I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drink L-M-N-T dot com slash Huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
- 52:40 – 1:00:37
Texting & Relationships
- AHAndrew Huberman
Text messaging is an interesting example of communication that nowadays, um, depending on how many people have access to your phone number, um, can either feel like a wonderful source of filling the gaps, you know, on trains and while in transit and, uh, while walking to the car perhaps, hopefully not while driving, although people seem to do that, um, and yet for the introvert I can imagine that it might feel inundating. It might feel kind of, um, overwhelming. Um, how do you feel about text messages? Because it's just yet-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... another form of communication. I asked this for a very particular reason. Um, I could imagine that extroverts love to text message. They love to receive and send text messages, that they can't stand a moment of downtime before boarding a plane.
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They're, um, they're excited that there's yet another form of communication at all hours of the day and night, whereas introverts would be less excited to text message. I also ask this in part, um, because I want to protect the, um, variable latency-
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... to respond to text option-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that, uh, I've tried to exercise in my life, but that seems to, um... Well, doesn't really seem to work. I think most people assume... Um, you know, if I walk up to you and I say hello, and you wait 10 minutes to say hello back, I'm... I'll first think you're a little bit rude and then think you're a little strange.
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Whereas if I text you hello and I don't hear back right away, um, I might think you're busy. There's some, you know... There's some wiggle room for interpretation, but I think what I'm really getting at here is, do we tend to project the same, um, latency expectation on texts that we ourselves, uh, embrace? Um, this seems like an important source of, um, potential miscommunication, misunderstanding, and maybe worse.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, I mean, certainly. You could imagine also though that the introvert might be more comfortable texting because it, it's less stimulation. So, it could work. I think it could work in both directions. Um, I think the problem with text messaging is that it's decreasing emotional intelligence, because you really can't communicate the same way through a text message.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Thank you.
- MBMarc Brackett
And-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Can you repeat both those things again?
- MBMarc Brackett
Yes. I'm happy to say it 100 times.
- AHAndrew Huberman
No, because I, I, I mean, I feel this wash of, like...... relief, and now I'm looking for the appropriate word 'cause I'm talking to you so I feel like I have to use the exact appropriate word. I feel, um, I feel emancipated.
- MBMarc Brackett
There you go.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, because I also feel that as texting has become more routine and has crossed a number of different lines of formality and in- and informality, right, not just with family members, but with, um, coworkers, and the people we do and don't know and just met and have known for ages, you know, the, the, um, jargon that we use with one group is different than the jargon we use with another.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but I feel that texting in general has really degraded our ability to communicate verbally and in writing elsewhere.
- MBMarc Brackett
There's good research on even, like, teens right now prefer to text than to be face-to-face.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's so weird.
- MBMarc Brackett
Which is not helpful to building, like, good relationships.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Sorry, I shouldn't have... Forgive me, I didn't...
- MBMarc Brackett
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I'm gonna interrupt you too. I, I, I have no idea what it's like to be a teenager in 2024. So I, I've caught myself. I have no place saying weird, because there were things that I was doing as a teenager that I'm sure adults were like, "That's weird."
- MBMarc Brackett
Of course.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So I take that back. Speaker [inaudible)
- MBMarc Brackett
But if you think about how disconnected and alienated and lonely people feel these days, that's not necessarily gonna help make things better. I have an example. You know, when my father passed away a number of years ago, I c- I got all these text messages, "I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm so s-" from people who I thought were really good friends of mine, like, 20, 30-year friends. I'm like, "You're not gonna pick up the phone and, like, listen to my voice and ask me, like, 'What can I do to support you right now?'" And as... I j- it's so strange, and actually, uh, one of my closest friends, you know, didn't even text me. She texted my assistant and said, "Please go into Mark's office and tell him that I love him." I'm like, "This is really weird. Like, we need to..." Like, I picked up the phone, I'm like, "What is happening right now?" (laughs) "What is happening right now?" And, you know, people have preconceived notions. Maybe she thought I was overwhelmed and devastated and needed space. But at the same time, like, make a phone call, leave me a voice message, and give me, you know, some options. I had one friend, she's like, "Mark, I know you're going through a lot right now. I just want you to know, like, if you wanna talk, anytime you wanna call me, call me. If you wanna text, text. If you want me to come out and stay with you for a couple of days, I'm there."
- 1:00:37 – 1:06:28
Tool: Mood Meter, Energy & Pleasantness Scale
- AHAndrew Huberman
Could we talk about the energy pleasantness axes-
- MBMarc Brackett
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, and create a mental picture for people of, of what this is? I found this to be incredibly useful. Um, if, uh, listeners or viewers have a, a pen or pencil and paper, you could, uh, map this out, but it's very easy to, um, imagine in your mind. So, uh, maybe you could just tell us on the vertical axis.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, so we have, you know, horizontal, we'll call that pleasantness.And this is going back to something else that we talked about earlier, it's called pleasantness, not goodness or badness. It's, in this moment am I feeling highly pleasant or am I feeling unpleasant? Do I feel like approaching my day, my colleagues, do I feel like avoiding my colleagues? Do I feel safe and comfortable? Do I feel uncomfortable? That's the x-axis. And the way I like to think about it is that from the moment we wake up in the morning till the time we go to bed, that is activated. We're just, you know, y- we wake up in the morning and you just, you're all of a sudden have a thought process like, "Yes, I wanna get out of bed. No, I wanna pull the covers over my head." On the y-axis is energy or activation.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay, so vertical axis is energy.
- MBMarc Brackett
The technical term is arousal or activation, but I think energy is a better term. And so it's either you're highly energized or you're deactivated or low in energy. It is mental energy, it's physical energy. It's like kind of like how much fuel you have. And then we cross those two axes to create what we call in our work the Mood Meter. And there are four quadrants. We got high pleasant, high energy, yellow. So think about emotions there, happy, excited, elated, ecstatic, optimistic. We got the green, so that's low energy and pleasant still. That's the calm, content, tranquil, peaceful, relaxed quadrant. And then we have the unpleasant side, and I'm gonna repeat myself, it's not the bad emotions or the negative emotions, we're gonna call them unpleasant 'cause it's not generally pleasant to be sad or down or disappointed or hopeless or feeling despair, which is the blue or that low energy unpleasant. And then we got our red quadrant on the Mood Meter, which we'll call the high energy, highly unpleasant emotions, which are feelings of anger and anxiety. So it's, it's very helpful for people because, you know, when you're... Like you even said this yourself, like, you're not really sure how you're feeling. And we know our inner lives are complex. So to be able to have a tool that has four quadrants where you go like, "I don't know, am I pleasant? I'm, uh, I guess I'm kind of pleasant, but then my energy is low. All right, I'm in the green. All right, now what are my options there? No, I'm feeling quite energized and pleasant. Oh, what are my options there?" Et cetera. We find that in, for both preschoolers and CEOs very helpful, extremely helpful. And then, you know, going back to RULER for a minute, we might talk about the quadrant as being the R for self-awareness, right? Recognizing like where am I in emotion space? And then you might ask yourself like, "All right, well, what, what, uh, what's going on? You know, what's ca- w- why am I thinking that I'm in the yellow or red or blue or green? What just happened? What might be happening? Oh, I'm about to be on a podcast. Oh, I'm about to take a test. Oh, I'm about to go into a difficult meeting with a colleague. Oh, I'm about to go home and my partner is gonna be mad. Hmm. Okay, now I understand why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling." I put a word to it, I'm more precise. I'm not enraged, I'm irritable. I'm not blissful, I'm just content. I'm not depressed, I'm just feeling down. I'm not overwhelmed, I'm just feeling a little uneasy. That's helpful because that helps you go into the E and the R of RULER which is, all right, is this an emotion I need to express or do I keep it to myself? Does this emotion need, need help? Do I need support right now or am I okay with what I'm feeling? I have a great story about this actually. You know, we're born to be fixers I think, you know, especially in my role like as a teacher or if you're a parent, you know, with a kid or a teacher, partners, right? And so I go to visit this school where my program is, it's called RULER also, and we're in about 5,000 schools now across the United States. And I'm visiting this school, kindergarten, and I do this check-in and the little boy says he's in the blue, which means unpleasant, low in energy. And of course my like little five-year-old, he's in the blue, I feel terrible. And then my fixer, like, I wanna fix this kid. I wanna h- I don't want this kid to be in the blue. And so I, I know I can't do that 'cause it's part of the, it's like the rules of RULER, you don't fix people's feelings. You don't fix people's feelings. So I, um, I just said, uh, the boy, um, "I'm just curious, you know, do you need a strategy?" And he goes, "No." And I'm like, "No?" I said, "I'm just curious, you know, why don't you need a strategy?" He goes, "'Cause I know it's impermanent."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Wow. Maybe the next generations coming up are far more emotionally intelligent-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah, he's like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... than ours, if I may.
- MBMarc Brackett
If they are, if they get direct instruction, that's my vision for the world is that everyone gets an emotion education. Um, and the boy says, "No, you know, I know it's gonna go away. I'm fine." I'm like, "Okay." I was bad at this kid, like, "You're my teacher." You know, it was amazing. And to think that that five-year-old had that insight that he had an unpleasant feeling that didn't need to be fixed, that it was okay, that he just knew he was in a little funk and, but he has already experienced that emotions are ephemeral, you know, and he can just let it go and he'll be i- in the green a little later or the red or whatever else. It was really kind of mind-blowing.
- 1:06:28 – 1:19:42
Emotion Suppression; Permission to Feel, Emotions Mentor
- MBMarc Brackett
- AHAndrew Huberman
I was going to ask, how do we resolve the contradiction between the message to feel our feelings versus to just recognize that the feelings are moving through us as this five-year-old-
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... gosh, uh, was and is able to do? Because I feel like it gets to the heart of a lot of what we hear in the psychological and wellness space, which is, you know, feelings are just feelings. They're transient, they rep- represent all sorts of things and we can get to the biological underpinnings or the, the, um, you know, childhood trauma root, root cause underpinnings, the a- all sorts of things. Genetics for that matter.Should we feel our feelings in order to best recognize them? I would imagine yes. Um, is there any value to suppressing our feelings or does that tend to just grow the feeling? Uh, what is known about this from the research literature? Because you see a lot of different opinions about this, but I w- I'd like to know, um, y- have there been any experiments where people are placed into a negative or positive emotion, or are experiencing a negative or positive emotion and then intentionally try to suppress it? Has there been any brain imaging, any, uh-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah. There is.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... measurement of, of galvanic skin response? Like, does the emotion grow or does the emotion shrink?
- MBMarc Brackett
It tends to grow. Um, there are cultural differences, just to be frank. But in, you know, Western culture, um, suppression tends not to have great outcomes. Uh, finding ways to reappraise tends to be more helpful. This really gets into though, for me, the core of my work, because, you know, for 20 years of my life, I was running a center for emotional intelligence and teaching skills. And I would go around and I would see a lot of resistance, a lot of resistance. Whether it was, you know, the hedge fund manager or the superintendent of schools, or a parent. You know, I've had fathers come up to me say things like, you know, "Marc, you're so vulnerable. Like, you shared your whole story about being bullied. Like, I would never in my wildest dream ever share with my own son that I was bullied as a kid." And I'm like, "Tell me more," of course, you know, I'm a psychologist. And in the end, you know what, you know, the guy was afraid that his son would think he was weak. And so we have a mindset about feelings that we have to talk about. People have feelings about their feelings. Sometimes we call those meta-emotions or meta-feelings. Sometimes it's just that happy is good, anger is bad. It's that simple. My whole, uh, recent research is focused on something I call permission to feel. You know, you know a little bit about my own story. I had a pretty rough childhood that included abuse, it included a lot of bullying, and I had two parents who loved me, but, um, you know, my mother was a very anxious woman who never had strategies. So, you know, she was always saying, "Oh, I'm having a nervous breakdown," and she'd lock herself in her room and she wouldn't come out for a few hours. My father was, as we might call today, you know, uh, the tough guy who was kind of toxically masculine. "Son, you gotta toughen up." He even said to me once, you know, he's gone now and we have a good, we had a good relationship, but I'll never forget, he said, you know, "Son, I used to beat kids up like you."
- AHAndrew Huberman
He said that?
- MBMarc Brackett
He did. And he didn't, I mean, he thought that was a message that I needed to hear to toughen up, right? That was, he was doing that through love. I mean, it was not emotionally intelligent parenting, but that's, that was the way he thought. And, you know, he did love me. He just didn't know how to be a parent in that way. Um, and so think about that. Bullied, shame, fear, abused, all kinds of stuff going on in my head. Mom having nervous breakdowns, father, "Toughen up." What happens? You suppress, you deny, you ignore, you eat, you do all kinds of weird behaviors because you have nowhere to go with your feelings. And I fear that way too many people feel that way right now. And I have good research to show that. Um, you know, you've read my book, you know I had an Uncle Marvin. He was a middle school teacher who, you know, by some wave of a magic wand, was staying with my family one summer when I was 12, and he noticed something in my facial expression, my body language. He knew something was off, and he was the first adult who sat with me and said, "Hey Marc, how are you feeling?" And I don't know if it was his facial expression, his body language, his vocal tone, but that was the opener for me. "I'm not doing so well. I don't really like life very much. I'm scared." And he didn't say, "I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown," or, "Toughen up." He said, "We're gonna get through this. I got you. I'm with you." And it's really interesting to me because, you know, I feel like we're so focused on skill building, which is really important, but I want to take a step back and say, are we giving ourselves, are we giving our colleagues, our partners, our children the permission to feel? And I feel like a lot of people don't have that permission. Now, my research shows with tens of thousands of people across cultures that only about a third of adults felt that they had someone when they were young who created the conditions for them to have permission to feel. That means 70% of the people walking around here right now in our corporations, in our schools, in our homes, 30% felt like they had that. And then you wonder, what do you think the characteristics are of these people? The characteristics of the Uncle Marvins or Aunt Marias, or the colleague at work, by the way. This also works in the adult workforce. You can have an emotion, uh, mentor or a feelings coach at work. There's three characteristics. Do you wanna take a guess?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I'm guessing empathically attuned.
- MBMarc Brackett
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, although that's a, uh, for those that know, empathy is a, is a, involves a bunch of subcategories, so I wanna acknowledge that. Empathically attuned, um, I'm guessing that they have themselves some high, high emotional intelligence.
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, and the third is, um, gosh, I, uh, my hope is that there be a, a, uh, high situational awareness.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? Because your uncle needed to see something w- subtle in your facial expression, or maybe not so subtle-
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but everyone else was missing it.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But, but, um, to be able to detect that there was something that really need, it was like a-... silent cry for help.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah. You're getting at, like, you're really nuanced, which is, that's why you're a scientist too. The three broad characteristics, the first one that shows up cross-culturally, non-judgmental. Like, when we think about the people who gave us permission to feel, they just had no judgment. They let me be who I can be or who I am. The second is empathic and kind of coupled with compassionate, which is kind of the different form of empathy. The third, primarily, is active listening. People want to be around people who don't judge them, who listen actively, and show that they care. It's that simple. And I'll tell you, it's really, um, interesting to me because, you know, I do a lot of public speaking and often my, my new strategy is I do surveys where I'm gonna be presenting so I can present the audience themselves with their data.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- MBMarc Brackett
And so I'm giving this speech to a bunch of adult parents, high school parents, and I'm showing the data from them. They filled out the survey. Non-judgmental, active listening, empathy, compassion. And, and I show just like my national study, a third of you said yes, two thirds of you said no. So this, this, this mom, and she's like, just like impulsively jumps out of her seat. She's like, "I'm having an epiphany." I'm like, "Okay." And she's like, "I know, I'm certain that my daughter has an Uncle Marvin. I, I know it. And I'm also certain that my son doesn't. And you know something, Marc? I am leaving your presentation today and I am finding my son his Uncle Marvin." (laughs) And I'm like, "Lady, it could be you." Uh, and it was like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right. It's sort of interesting just kind of going right by her, but-
- MBMarc Brackett
It's like outsourcing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right.
- MBMarc Brackett
Like there's your karate teacher, there's your feelings mentor. And it's interesting to me, and I push on this in my research now, what is the resistance? Like what are people so afraid of? I mean, they're so afraid of feelings, their own and their children's or their partner's. And so I ask, you know, I push on this and what's really interesting and sad to me is that adults today, the two barriers... I'm gonna, now I'm gonna push you again. What do you think the two things that get in the way of giving other people permission to feel?
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is actually where my next question was going, so I'll just ask the question in the form of an answer.
- MBMarc Brackett
Okay. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is this like Jeopardy?
- 1:19:42 – 1:25:00
Discussing Feelings; Emotional Self-Awareness
- AHAndrew Huberman
about people that can really help us by asking us the right questions, or in thinking about how we can ask people the right questions to really help them and us gain an understanding of what they're experiencing, I'm recalling numerous instances in my life where there seemed to be the requirement for, uh, an excuse, like an activity excuse.
- MBMarc Brackett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, uh, I currently have a very good relationship with my father, but I remember when there was a time where we had to talk about science or watches as an entry point to-
- MBMarc Brackett
Sure.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... any conversation, let alone about emotions.
- MBMarc Brackett
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? And, uh, he's done a lot of work, I've done a lot of work, and I like to think we're much, we are much further down the road.
- MBMarc Brackett
Great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
We enjoy a, a very close relationship, uh, as a consequence of that work, in part. But I think what you're describing really makes me realize that no matter who anybody is or what their age or what their background, that as human beings, we don't just need permission, but we really should think about just having a conversation about how others feel.
Episode duration: 2:34:33
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