Alan Aragon on Huberman Lab: How to Lose Fat and Gain Muscle

Andrew Huberman 0:00 Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Alan Aragon. Alan Aragon is one of the most influential and respected figures in the fields of fitness and nutrition. The reason for that is because of his strict reliance on evidence-based information, and because he's co-authored some of the most highly cited and respected studies and reviews on nutrition and fitness. His expertise covers nutrition and training for women and for men, and for anyone who's seeking better health, fat loss, muscle and strength gain, or all of the above. And in today's episode, we cover all of that and much more. Alan clarifies the myths and the facts around things like seed oils, whether or not it's better to do your workouts fasted for sake of fat-burning, low-calorie and artificial sweeteners, sugar, alcohol, collagen, and more. Alan also explains how to determine your actual protein needs. Despite all the discussion nowadays about protein, there's still a lot of confusion about this actually. He covers the real science on meal timing, protein and carbohydrate intake relative to your training, how women's hormone cycles impact their training and nutrition needs, and eating and training for body composition changes for anyone. There is just so much advice and information online, but also in the peer-reviewed literature on nutrition and fitness nowadays, which makes it very challenging for anyone seeking to understand and implement what really matters toward their fitness and body composition goals. If ever there was a voice of practical reason who is grounded in the peer-reviewed data, but who is also willing to acknowledge individual differences and preferences when it comes to fitness and nutrition, it's Alan Aragon. And today, he shares that information with us, and he also makes it clear and actionable as to what really works. Thanks to Alan, by the end of today's episode, you will be armed with the latest and best knowledge on nutrition and fitness that you can apply. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Alan Aragon.

Andrew Huberman 2:17 Alan Aragon, welcome.

Alan Aragon 2:19 Andrew, it is awesome to be here. Like, literally awesome. I'm not... It's no exaggeration. This is, uh... I'm super stoked, man. Thank you for having me on the show.

Andrew Huberman 2:28 Yeah. Well, I've learned a ton from you through our online correspondence, and we've met once before in person. Let's get down to some important, um, topics be- that are very actionable, because this is what I love so much about your work. It clarifies so much of the confusion that exists out there. Uh, I think this is really one of the signatures of your work, is that it clarifies. Let's start off with something that many people have heard, which is that we can only assimilate 30 grams of protein per meal.

Alan Aragon 3:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 3:02 And the simple question is, what constitutes a meal? Like, if I eat 30 grams of protein, and an hour later, I eat 30 grams of protein, did I just eat two meals? Can I assimilate 30 grams in each? And can I assimilate more than 30 grams of protein under certain circumstances? So, what's the deal with this protein assimilation thing?

Alan Aragon 3:22 Okay. Well, you elucidated one of the issues right in the question. It's like, are we talking about isolated, quickly digesting protein, or are we talking about a slower-digesting protein, or are we talking about any one of those within the context of a mixed macronutrient meal with carbohydrate and fat and fiber? All of those conditions alter the behavior of what happens physiologically, and so the origin of the whole, you know, 25 grams of protein max is all you can use is the confusion of the, um, f- th- two separate concepts. So, there is digestion and utilization at the kind of entire-body level, where protein has various metabolic fates for various systems, um, and just various homeostatic needs of the body. And then, there is the specific phenomenon of the muscle anabolic response, or muscle protein synthesis. So, we have to separate, okay, digestion and absorption in general, or muscle protein synthesis. So, the 25, 30-gram cutoff, it's usually listed at like, some people say 20, uh, that refers specifically to muscle protein synthesis, where there seems to be a plateau at 25-ish, 30-ish grams. And we thought this all the way until, gosh, from, uh, the, the late '90s, early 2000s, all the way up till 2016-ish or so when, 2016, when McNaughton and colleagues compared 20 grams of protein versus 40 grams of protein. But instead of doing what previous researchers did with the training bouts being very low volume, like eight to 12 sets, you know, a, a couple, a couple different leg exercises, you know, leg extensions, leg presses, eight to 12 sets total, and then you assess the muscle protein synthetic response to the protein dose. What McNaughton and colleagues did, they hit the subjects with a 24-ish set regimen, full body. So, it was a little bit more ecologically valid in the sense that they tried to, um, mirror what goes on in the real world with training regimens, with people who are trying to build muscle and really elicit this anabolic response. So, when they ran this experiment, and they compared 20 versus 40 grams of protein, the 40 grams of protein actually had a greater muscle protein synthesis response than the 20 grams. And it took us all the way t- 2016 to, to figure that out, and then an- a series of studies just kind of progressed from there. And-... proceeded to kind of debunk this idea that muscle protein synthesis plateaus at 20, 25 grams. But... Now, i- and, and there's some interesting recent studies on that as well.

Andrew Huberman 6:21 Up to 100 grams, as I recall.

Alan Aragon 6:23 That's e- exactly the study I was going to bring up. That's by, uh, Jorn Tromlin and colleagues, where they compared a 25 gram dose with a 100 gram dose post-exercise. They used a slow digesting protein. They used milk protein, which is 80% casein, which is a slow digesting, 20% whey, which is fast. So mostly a slow digesting protein. And there was significantly greater muscle protein synthesis with the 100 gram dose compared to the 25 gram dose. But my big issue with that study is they, they really, really needed to include an intermediate dose to see whether there would have been a plateau in MPS with something like, let's say, 40 or 50 grams. And that's because there's a lot of other research seeing that plateau somewhere between 30 and 50 grams. So I wish Jorn et al included an intermediate dose with that.

Andrew Huberman 7:17 Maybe a future study. Let me just, uh, pause you for a second and ask a couple questions.

Alan Aragon 7:21 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 7:21 Um, if you can give an across the board recommendation-

Alan Aragon 7:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 7:25 ... of how much protein people should consume post resistance training-

Alan Aragon 7:30 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 7:30 ... let's just leave cardiovascular training separately for the moment. Post resistance training-

Alan Aragon 7:35 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 7:35 ... what would that number be? Would it be 20, 30, 50, or 100? Should it scale with body weight? And how long after training should one consume that protein if the goal is muscle protein synthesis?

Alan Aragon 7:49 To maximize muscle protein synthesis, regardless of whether it's post exercise... And, and MPS will be larger with the protein dosing post-exercise than at, at resting or fasting. To maximize MPS, we really haven't seen doses, uh, beyond, uh, 50-ish grams, thir- 30, 30 or so to 50. Um, my colleague Brad Showen- Schoenfeld and I, we scoured the literature and we wrote this paper on what is the maximal anabolic dose of protein per meal for the goal of muscle building. And we boiled it down to somewhere between .4 to roughly .6 grams per kilogram of body weight. And so, in freedom units, uh, we're talking .2 to .25 grams per pound. And that is what appears to max out muscle protein synthesis.

Andrew Huberman 8:47 .2 to .5 grams per pound.

Alan Aragon 8:49 .2 to .25.

Andrew Huberman 8:51 .25?

Alan Aragon 8:52 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 8:52 Okay.

Alan Aragon 8:52 Yeah, so like about a quarter of your, of your body weight in pounds, if you're looking at grams of protein, to maximize per meal-

Andrew Huberman 8:59 Muscle protein. That's, yes, per meal. Okay, c- I... Sorry, because I think many people-

Alan Aragon 9:04 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 9:04 ... including myself are going to say, "Okay, but this is only in the meal post-workout?" I mean, I, I wake up in the morning and I-

Alan Aragon 9:11 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 9:12 ... try to work out before I eat 'cause I like to do that.

Alan Aragon 9:14 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 9:14 Sometimes I'll have a little bit of protein. But

Andrew Huberman 9:16 let's assume two conditions just for simplicity.

Alan Aragon 9:20 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 9:20 Somebody did resistance training in the previous two hours.

Alan Aragon 9:24 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 9:25 Or... And, and they're trying to evaluate how much protein to eat at that meal in order to maximize muscle protein synthesis-

Alan Aragon 9:32 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 9:32 Or they're eating a meal separate fr- on a day they're not resistance training.

Alan Aragon 9:37 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 9:37 Right?

Alan Aragon 9:37 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 9:38 And so, and then, uh, the... As just kind of a, a generic example of a meal that doesn't follow resistance training-

Alan Aragon 9:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 9:44 ... I- in a window of two hours or so, how much protein should be consumed at these two different meals?

Alan Aragon 9:50 The answer to that is so weird, Andrew, honestly. Um-

Andrew Huberman 9:53 Really? Why does it have to be so weird?

Alan Aragon 9:55 It, it's freaking weird and it's complicated.

Andrew Huberman 9:57 Oh.

Alan Aragon 9:58 Uh, that's because... Okay, so if we go all the way back to 2003, 2004, and then we walk forward 20 years. Um, so John Ivy and Robert Portman put out this book called Nutrient Timing, and they focused on this narrow post-exercise window of opportunity they called it, so the, the anabolic window. And the concept was you needed to consume protein and quickly digesting carbs, so fast digesting protein, lightning fast, highly glycemic, highly insulinemic carb source together within, within 30 to 60 minutes post-exercise in order to maximize the anabolic response, maximize recovery, and then maximize your muscle gain. So that was their hypothesis. This was all based on subjects who were training after an overnight fast. And so what happens when you consume a meal pre-exercise, or at any point let's say, and a, a regular old mixed meal, medium size, the anabolic/anti-catabolic effect of that meal is going to last anywhere from three to six hours depending on the size of the meal. So when you're somebody whose goal it is, above all the other goals, is to gain muscle at the quickest rate possible, you're almost never gonna train fasted. You're gonna have a pre-exercise meal at some point, at least a couple hours pre-exercise. And so when you're training, you actually still have these substrates in circulation through the exercise about... And oftentimes, like if somebody has a meal, like an hour pre-exercise, they're still absorbing that pre-exercise meal post-exercise. So we looked at this whole post-exercise period as something that just doesn't necessarily have any external validity. I- it doesn't have relevance to real world-... training conditions, where people are not training fasted. And so, what we did was, we did a couple of things. First, we wrote a narrative review criticizing the post-exercise anabolic window, and this was in 2013. We kind of pissed off all the researchers who did the seminal work in that area.

Andrew Huberman 12:26 I'm sensing a theme here.

Alan Aragon 12:27 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 12:28 No, I was just teasing.

Alan Aragon 12:29 And then we actually, and we did a meta-analysis of the existing literature looking at the anabolic window thing. And, um, for the listeners, um, a meta-analysis is a study of the studies. You collect all of the studies on a given question, and then you kind of see, you look at, you know, effect sizes, and you sort of see wh- where the evidence leans, whether there's an ef- you know, a significant or meaningful effect or not. And so, we did this meta-analysis, and we, we collected studies that compared a, a protein timing condition, where protein was timed within an hour, either pre or post-exercise, and then the control group of the study would have to have protein a minimum of two hours of nutrient neglect on both sides of the training bout. So, we collected all the studies that compared these conditions, and, um, we had a, a, a brilliant stats guy, James Krieger. He ran the regression analysis, and essentially, we found that as long as total daily protein was about 1.66, 1.7 grams per kilogram of body weight, so about .7 grams per pound, as long as total daily protein was at that or more, then the timing relative to the training bout didn't make a difference.

Andrew Huberman 13:49 This is important for people to hear because what this translates to in my ears is a very simple takeaway, which is that you don't need to obsess about the post-training anabolic window, especially if you're eating prior to training.

Alan Aragon 14:07 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 14:07 Because you have nutrients circulating. Now, if you eat your last bite of food at 8:00 PM and you wake up at 7:00 AM and you're training at 10:00 AM then perhaps-

Alan Aragon 14:16 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 14:17 ... by the time you finish your leg workout or whatever resistance training workout, you would want to prioritize getting some protein and other nutrients into your system. What you're saying basically, um, it makes it, i- it's so logical now that I hear it, uh, which is that you have nutrients circulating in your body and stored in your glycogen, and so you're pulling from a reservoir. If fasted doesn't necessarily mean starving.

Alan Aragon 14:40 General rule of thumb, if you're burping your pre-exercise meal towards the end of your workout, then you don't need to run towards the su- (laughs) -

Andrew Huberman 14:48 Oh, this is why I don't, uh, like to ingest anything prior to training-

Alan Aragon 14:51 Okay, okay.

Andrew Huberman 14:52 ... besides caffeine, electrolytes, and water.

Alan Aragon 14:54 The reason why there, you know, there's a weird and, and complex answer with this is like, a s- a single resistance training bout causes this sort of, you know, th- this interesting cascade of things where muscle protein synthesis will peak 24 hours after the resistance training bout. And it'll take as long as 48 to 72 hours to kind of come down to baseline levels, uh, to where you had not done the resistance training bout. So, so the anabolic window is actually not hours, but days. So-

Andrew Huberman 15:31 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 15:31 ... it, it, it's more a, a matter of making sure you are consuming... Well, the, the first in the order of importance is total daily protein, so there's a, this hierarchy of importance. If you get total daily protein right, then the timing of the constituent doses of the total are just a distant secondary concern.

Andrew Huberman 15:53 Even if it's only distributed across two meals? Like, let's say, um, I train in the morning.

Alan Aragon 15:58 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:00 Uh, maybe I have a, uh, some caffeine and a scoop of a, you know, protein shake before, like, with some whey protein, maybe a few almonds to, you know, slow digestion down or whatever, um, train, and then I don't get to eat until 3:00 PM-

Alan Aragon 16:14 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:14 ... and I only train for an hour, let's say.

Alan Aragon 16:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:16 And then at 3:00 PM I have a little bit of a chicken breast and a salad, maybe a slice of bread 'cause I'm o- I'm on the fly, and then that night I get home and I'm hungry and I eat two rib eye steaks. I'm exaggerating here. I wouldn't do that. I'd like to, but I don't.

Alan Aragon 16:29 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 16:31 Those two rib eye steaks-

Alan Aragon 16:31 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:32 ... probably give you 75 or even 100 grams of protein-

Alan Aragon 16:36 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:36 ... and a bunch of other things too.

Alan Aragon 16:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:37 Can you use all of that for muscle protein synthesis?

Alan Aragon 16:41 The short answer is yes. Um, the nuanced answer is, let me tell you about a couple studies. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 16:47 Okay. Well, as you do that, but, but-

Alan Aragon 16:50 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 16:50 ... l- l- let me ask you a little differently.

Alan Aragon 16:52 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 16:52 Not, not to, not to shut down the, the, the emphasis on studies 'cause that's why you're here, but is there anything wrong with consuming high or very high protein meal every once in a while, especially if you're not eating much or consuming much protein throughout the day? And the reason I ask this is for practical reasons. Many people find it difficult to distribute their protein evenly through the day.

Alan Aragon 17:20 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:21 Many people also find it difficult to get enough protein in the middle of the day meals or the morning meals. It can be done, and I know people will say, "Well, you have some eggs and some protein." There are ways to do it, sure.

Alan Aragon 17:32 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:33 But at least in this country, most people tend to emphasize dinner as their largest meal, for better or worse. And you can usually order high quality, high protein foods in a restaurant, like a steak, chicken breast, fish, et cetera. So, a lot of people stack their protein heavily towards the end of the day.

Alan Aragon 17:51 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 17:52 Assuming caloric load is appropriate, et cetera, is there anything fundamentally wrong or bad about doing that from the perspective of body composition and health?

Alan Aragon 18:03 I would say no. Um, and then there's levels to it, right? Um, like what population are we looking at? Are we looking at guys who are trying to win a national competition in bodybuilding, for example-

Andrew Huberman 18:15 No.

Alan Aragon 18:15 ... or professionally or-

Andrew Huberman 18:15 No, we're talking about men and women, um...... teens up to 75 years old-

Alan Aragon 18:22 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:22 ... who are trying to be fit by doing a combination of resistance training-

Alan Aragon 18:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:25 ... and hopefully some cardiovascular training as well-

Alan Aragon 18:28 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:28 ... trying to get their steps in. We're talking about the general population, not somebody who's trying to win a physique competition-

Alan Aragon 18:34 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:34 ... or run a marathon or ultra.

Alan Aragon 18:37 Okay. So, generally, no. And I- I want to qualify that a little bit. So, my colleagues and I did a study testing out this anabolic window thing. This was 2014 where we tested immediate pre-exercise 25 grams of whey protein versus immediate post-exercise 25 grams of whey protein. Uh, we ran the experiment for 10 weeks. Yeah, 10 weeks. Yep. Eight or 10, probably 10. Um, and there was no significant advantage of either, um, condition. So a- a- and, and our thinking was, look, everybody's harping about this post-exercise anabolic window, so it really i- if there is this opportunity to consume nutrients at prime time f- to feed the hungry muscles, then you would want to focus on availability of nutrients in circulation, and not when you actually consume the nutrients, because there's this time course for them to... for the nutrients to peak in circulation. It's usually somewhere between one and two hours after you ingest the stuff. So, how about we consume protein immediately pre, and then it'll be peaking in the blood, like, an hour-ish later, and then you'll be right in the anabolic window. So, we didn't see any advantage to the immediate pre-protein versus the immediate post-protein. That was in 2014. So, fast-forward to 2024-ish, '23, '24, uh, one of my colleagues, Yassin Lak, he took our, our pre/post model, and he kind of like... He ran his own, uh, randomized control trial version of it, but he wanted to kind of exploit the possibility of further protein neglect on both sides of the training bout. So, he compared an immediate pre, um, and post, immediate pre and post 25 grams of protein, sandwiching the resistance training bout, with a group that neglected all, all nutrients, uh, for three hours on both sides of the resistance training bout. Total daily protein was optimized at around, um, close to a gram per pound, two, two-ish grams per kilogram of body weight. No significant difference, no meaningful difference in muscle size and strength gains at the end of the, I believe it was a 10 or 12-week study.

Andrew Huberman 21:02 That's very reassuring to me.

Alan Aragon 21:03 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 21:03 I mean, because I have a busy schedule, as do m- many people, and sometimes I'm a little hungry before I train-

Alan Aragon 21:09 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 21:10 ... and I'll want a scoop of protein powder, and I'll think, "Oh, is it better..." We'll talk about whether or not it's better to train fasted, uh, for all sorts-

Alan Aragon 21:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 21:16 ... of reasons. Sometimes people don't like to train fasted. Sometimes people don't like to eat immediately after they train.

Alan Aragon 21:23 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 21:23 Sometimes you have to shower up and head to dinner after you train, or shower up and head to a meeting-

Alan Aragon 21:29 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 21:30 ... and you don't have the opportunity to ingest the- this- in the an- quote-unquote "anabolic window."

Alan Aragon 21:35 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 21:36 So, what I'm hearing through all these answers, correct me if I'm wrong-

Alan Aragon 21:39 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 21:39 ... is that there's tremendous flexibility as to when you consume the protein that we all need, but that it... the overall protein requirement seems to center somewhere around 0.7 to one gram per pound of body weight-

Alan Aragon 21:53 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 21:53 ... somewhere in there, total per day.

Alan Aragon 21:55 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 21:55 If the amount in a given meal is a bit higher than 20 or 30 grams, you're fine.

Alan Aragon 22:01 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 22:02 If it's a bit lower, you're probably fine. But the thing that also I believe needs highlighting that most people don't talk about is distinguishing between what's in circulation versus when one ingests something.

Alan Aragon 22:15 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 22:16 Like, we love to think that we drink 30 grams of protein or eat the chicken breast or the piece of steak or have the eggs, and suddenly those amino acids are available-

Alan Aragon 22:23 It appears, right.

Andrew Huberman 22:23 ... and it makes so much more rational sense now that you describe it, that eating first makes those amino acids available for the muscles a couple hours later.

Alan Aragon 22:33 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 22:34 And we just don't learn about it that way.

Alan Aragon 22:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 22:37 So, I'm very grateful that you're bringing it up that way.

Alan Aragon 22:40 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 22:40 I realize we could probably drill into protein requirements, um, ad nauseum, but-

Alan Aragon 22:45 Think, think about it this way.

Andrew Huberman 22:46 Yeah.

Alan Aragon 22:46 The, the way I like to put it is, total daily protein is the cake.

Andrew Huberman 22:51 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 22:51 The specific timing of protein relative to the training bout, that is the icing on the cake, and it's a very thin layer of icing on the cake.

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Andrew Huberman 26:46 Let's talk about fasted training.

Alan Aragon 26:48 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 26:49 And whether or not it indeed burns more body fat.

Alan Aragon 26:53 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 26:54 And here, let's expand the conversation to include cardiovascular training, and of course, that's a vast space. Could be long, slow distance, could be-

Alan Aragon 27:00 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:00 ... high-intensity interval training.

Alan Aragon 27:02 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 27:02 Anything that gets your heart rate elevated-

Alan Aragon 27:03 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:03 ... deliberately for 12, uh, for 12 minutes or more-

Alan Aragon 27:06 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 27:06 ... is kind of how I put it. Um, so let's be broad with what we're calling training.

Alan Aragon 27:12 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:12 Could be resistance training, circuit training, whole body, body part split, whatever. Let's, let's take all that and let's define the fast as not having eaten either for four hours during the middle of the day or for eight hours or, to 12 hours, including sleep the night before, right?

Alan Aragon 27:33 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:33 Because people then say, "Wait, but I'm fasted 'cause I don't eat lunch and then I tr-"

Alan Aragon 27:36 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 27:36 Okay, it gets really murky and then w- and then we could spend 26 hours here and we don't want to do that. So assuming that one trains fasted-

Alan Aragon 27:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:45 ... does one burn more body f- stored body fat in particular or just more dietary fat if there's dietary fat circulating and available? Let's just say lipids.

Alan Aragon 27:59 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 27:59 I think th- we, when we hear the word "fat," people think body fat.

Alan Aragon 28:03 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 28:03 But there's also dietary fat. So could you please discriminate between those two?

Alan Aragon 28:07 Yeah. Okay, so picture this. (laughs) Picture two people eating the exact same amount of... E-e-exact same diet, identical diet. By the end of the day, same macronutrition, same food selection, everything is identical. One person or one of the groups... Let's say we're running a study, okay? One of the groups trains in a genuinely post-absorptive fasted state, eight to 10 hours-ish, n- eating nothing. They will burn more fat during the training bout.

Andrew Huberman 28:47 Body fat?

Alan Aragon 28:48 Yes. (laughs) They will burn more body fat. They will burn more intramuscular fat. They will just... Their net fat oxidation will be higher than the group that has a, a breakfast. And the group that has the breakfast will essentially be, you know, burning their breakfast during the training. So yes, during the training, there is greater fat burning in the fasted group.But once again, we're looking at two groups who are consuming the exact same diet. So, the group who consumed their breakfast is going to consume (laughs) less stuff, less food, one less meal in the later part of the day. So, their fat oxidation is going to be higher in the later part of the day. And so, it all comes out even by the end of the day. So, that is the, kind of the big issue and the big-

Andrew Huberman 29:44 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 29:44 ... principle with, with, uh, fasted training having ... Yes, uh, uh, m- it does burn more fat during training, but you're looking at a snapshot of time within the course of the day. You're not looking at the course of the day. But you know what? This was a, a huge idea that persisted throughout the, mm, late '80s and early '90s. Um, late ... And, you know, even into the 2000s when, uh, Bill Phillips came out with Body For Life and stuff. He was big on the fasted cardio and stuff. And so, um, these, this kind of lore is really cool, uh, if you know scientists who are able to rope you in and help y- help you, you know, investigate this stuff. So, uh, once again, you know, I gotta give Brad Schoenfeld a lot of credit. Uh, he wanted to test this hypothesis out. And so, um, we took college-aged subjects, uh, women, and we compared fasted cardio with fed cardio. And the predominant lore at the time was, uh, the fat burning zone, right? So n- uh, we're, we're talking low, moderate intensity cardio, which they carried out for, um, m- little less than an hour. And we compared immediate, an immediate pre- pre-cardio meal, which was a standardized, it was like a meal replacement type of thing, with, um, a br- uh, the same meal consumed post-cardio. And then we measured body composition over ... It, it w- people criticized the study for being four weeks, but look- (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 31:23 It's hard to run human studies.

Alan Aragon 31:25 It is.

Andrew Huberman 31:25 I've done it. It's, I've, I've, I've done a clinical trial in humans. I've ... It's very hard to run-

Alan Aragon 31:30 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:30 ... long-term studies, especially in humans, especially when it involves nutrition and-

Alan Aragon 31:35 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 31:35 ... training.

Alan Aragon 31:36 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 31:36 It's, it's brutal. So, uh, hat tip to you for tackling it at all.

Alan Aragon 31:40 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 31:40 You're not gonna catch any heat from me on the four weeks thing.

Alan Aragon 31:42 (laughs) Good, good. Okay.

Andrew Huberman 31:42 But I appreciate that you mentioned the duration of the study because, uh, in thoroughness, which you're characterized for, in thoroughness, um, people should know it.

Alan Aragon 31:50 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 31:51 Okay.

Alan Aragon 31:51 Yep. So, this is, uh, one of the only existing studies that looked at this question and, and controlled, you know, hypocaloric conditions. Uh, I actually put together all the studies by hand for each of the (laughs) subjects, kind of customizing it to their needs and making sure things were hypocaloric, making sure protein was optimized. Uh, interestingly, there was no resistance training in- involved with this study. They were just doing their cardio. Uh, they all, uh, subjects in both groups maintained their lean body mass, but both groups lost a significant amount of body fat. No difference in body fat reduction between groups by the end of the study, whether they did their cardio fed or whether they did it fasted. And that's because we equated the total nutrition between the groups. And-

Andrew Huberman 32:38 And you said, again, the subjects were college-age women.

Alan Aragon 32:40 College-age women, yes.

Andrew Huberman 32:41 And what was the cardio? What was the workout? And the reason I'm asking is that it's impressive that they all lost body fat.

Alan Aragon 32:47 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 32:48 As long as they ate the, uh, appropriate amount of calories, didn't matter when they distributed those calories relative to the exercise, and they maintained lean body mass. Um, and if they weren't doing resistance training, um, I'm impressed that the cardiovascular training was sufficient to allow them to maintain lean body mass. What was the cardiovascular workout?

Alan Aragon 33:08 It was low-moderate intensity, um, what, um, might be called zone two type of, type of cardio, where you can still hold a conversation, but, um, you know, it's not necessarily a waltz. And so, the whole idea was to be in the fat-burning z- we wanted to exploit the whole fat-burning zone concept, uh, to keep the intensity low-moderate so we can give the fasted cardio condition a chance to show whatever magic it might have. And so, we didn't see that magic by the end of the trial. Um, and yeah, uh, uh, but here's the, the, the practical takeaway from that is, number one, we didn't see a bunch of lean mass loss in the fasted cardio group, 'cause there, there's this lore saying that, "Hey, you better not train fasted, uh, no matter what. You better, you better not do cardio fasted, 'cause you're gonna lose muscle." Well, they didn't lose any, any lean body mass. And, um, when you form practical takeaways from the findings, we can say that if you prefer to train fasted, uh, and that you just feel better doing your cardio in a fasted state, great. Do it fasted. If you can't stand doing fasted cardio and you'd rather have a, a breakfast beforehand, then go ahead and do that. Just know that that's not going to necessarily hinder your fat loss efforts as long as you're net hypocaloric by the end of the day or the end of the week. And, I mean, that, those recommendations can change with the type of cardio you do, especially higher intensity stuff, or certainly competitive types of sports that involve, uh, you know, endurance performance elements and stuff. But that's the, the takeaway from our study, that fasted versus fed cardio, doesn't matter. Do it based on personal preference.

Andrew Huberman 35:00 I love it. After so many years of trends coming through, train fasted, don't train fasted, it, it seems like j- as with protein, what I'm learning from you is that there's a lot more, uh, flexibility in time than we might have once thought, but that-... the absolute calories of course matter. Prioritizing protein matters. And I'd like to... And that you still have to train, you gotta do something.

Alan Aragon 35:27 And, and, and can I add this, 'cause I know you'll appreciate this. I'm not gonna cherry-pick our study and say that this is the end-all result, that, that is gospel. So there's actually a, uh, a later meta-analysis a few years later by, I think it's Hagstrom and Hackett, who looked at fasted versus fed training, and they overall found no significant differences or significant advantages in terms of body comp improvement, fat loss, in the fasted versus the fed conditions. As long as total nutrition is equated between groups.

Andrew Huberman 36:02 Love it. This is music to my ears, and I'm sure it's going to be music to everybody's ears, because it just says there's flexibility, there's flexibility, there's flexibility.

Alan Aragon 36:10 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 36:10 And life is complicated, so more flexibility is good.

Alan Aragon 36:12 But it's disappointing though, too, for like, if you're looking for magic, if you're looking for that special little thing you can do, then, ugh.

Andrew Huberman 36:18 Well, maybe the magic is in the training consistently, um, the nutrition, including protein, and the knowledge that there's flexibility. I have this s- saying in my mind lately that the things that make 90% of the difference, so like sleep, exercise, nutrition, light, stress management, relationships, et cetera, in our health, are the things we have to do 90% of the days of our lives. And that's why there, there can continue to be so much discussion around them. This is why it isn't just like, "Here are the basics. Okay, you're done." It's because the things that we have to do every day, we often have to be reminded to do every day. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 36:53 Um, but along those lines, um, why is it, in your opinion, that protein is so critical? That y- you know, that protein be treated as, as like the, the cornerstone of good nutrition, especially if one is cons- a- attempting to consume calories to maintain or perhaps even lose a little bit of body fat. Maybe simultaneously m- maintaining or gaining muscle. But l- let's set aside muscle gain for the moment, and let's just say, like maintain muscle, but many people want to lose a few percentages of body fat.

Alan Aragon 37:29 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 37:30 Why is it that protein is so critical i- to that process? Why is it that indeed calories in versus calories out reigns true, law of thermodynamics, but that protein is so crucial?

Alan Aragon 37:44 It's mainly just a, a couple of things to keep in mind, and potentially a third little thing. So the, the big thing about protein and body comp is, number one, protein directly supports lean body mass. It directly supports all the lean tissues in the body. Uh, skeletal muscle, um, especially. And, um, skeletal muscle is our, basically our, our, our metabolic engine that we can control. Um, it manages our body's fuel use. And so, it's, it's super critical to support skeletal muscle. Protein does that directly. And protein is more satiating than carbohydrate and fat. And so, it's the most satiating macro-nutrient. Um, the third little, little detail, well, it's, it's got the highest, uh, cost of metabolism or cost of processing within the body. So, it's the most energetically or calorically expensive macro-nutrient to process within the body. So, it has a higher so-called thermic effect.

Andrew Huberman 38:45 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 38:46 And so, those are basically the, the three main reasons why protein is so critical to things like body comp improvement, um, high-quality weight loss, fat loss. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:57 Those, those are great reasons.

Alan Aragon 38:58 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 38:58 A- and what about the hierarchy of protein quality? I think of protein quality in terms of quality of protein, meaning the type and ratios of amino acids, the availability of those amino acids, relative to the amount of calories one has to ingest to get them. Because I, I, frankly, I've grown tired and slightly irritated at the-

Alan Aragon 39:20 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 39:20 ... "Oh, you know, these plant-based foods have a ton of quality protein in them." And I go, "Really? You have to consume 2,000 calories of that plant or grain in order to get the equivalent amino acid profile, uh, from, you know, a four-ounce piece of steak, for instance."

Alan Aragon 39:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 39:38 And, uh, this is not an argument that animal proteins are better ethically. I'm just saying at, at a quality, as a function of calories ingested, I feel like animal proteins are superior. But tell me, tell me what the data say.

Alan Aragon 39:54 Sure, sure. Man, this is a lightning rod of a, of a topic here, this, uh, um, kind of-

Andrew Huberman 40:00 We have a strong audience.

Alan Aragon 40:01 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 40:01 They can handle it.

Alan Aragon 40:02 They can handle it? All right, you guys.

Andrew Huberman 40:03 They can handle it.

Alan Aragon 40:03 Guys, buckle up and brace yourselves, please.

Andrew Huberman 40:06 Yeah.

Alan Aragon 40:06 So, gram for gram, as a group, animal proteins are higher quality, they're more anabolic. They have a higher proportion of essential amino acids. They have a higher amount and proportion of the anabolic-driving, the most anabolic-driving amino acids, the branched-chain amino acids, leucine specifically. And, uh, in, in the majority of the literature, when you compare animal versus plant proteins head-to-head, you see greater muscle protein synthesis. Um, now, with muscle protein synthesis being sort of the short-term indicator of what might indicate a growth trajectory over time, we have to see if we can corroborate that with these longitudinal trials where you drag the experiment out for weeks and months, to see if there's any superiority with the animal versus the plant protein for kind of where the rubber meets the road, which is increasing muscle mass and/or strength. So, there have been a lot of studies comparing animal versus plant proteins. And interestingly, uh ... Okay, so the animal proteins do have the edge in that department, and that's been reported in a couple meta-analyses now. Um-Uh, one of them compared whey and soy, and didn't find a, a staggering difference between the two anabolically, so we can call soy actually a, a, a high-quality protein. But when you look at the individual studies, they're, i- it, whey still has an edge in terms of... 'Cause meta-analyses just, like, take the data and cram it all together into a single conclusion.

Andrew Huberman 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 41:41 And so, um, it's also important to look at the individual studies too. So, here's where the story gets interesting. There, there are two studies now that compared a... And this is what, what's been missing from the literature. Usually, we take two groups of omnivores, and we supplement them with, let's say, whey protein, and then we supplement the other group with, uh, some sort of a plant protein.

Andrew Huberman 42:07 A pea protein or something like that.

Alan Aragon 42:08 Yeah, a pea protein and interesting thing about it (laughs) . Pea protein, it actually outperformed whey in one study, so in this 2015 study, where, um, pea protein supplementation outperformed whey for increasing muscle thickness. It was really sad (laughs) . I was really sad to see that, 'cause I was weighing it up, and I was like, "Oh, God. Yeah. W- what, what are we doing here?"

Andrew Huberman 42:29 Well, it is what it is.

Alan Aragon 42:29 That study has not been replicated, but... Okay, so the interesting part. We finally have studies where we're looking at completely vegan regimen, uh, uh, a group who's totally vegan, no, no animal products at all in, in the diet, versus an omnivore group. And, uh, put them on a resistance training regimen, 12 weeks. This was, uh, done by Lorraine and colleagues, and this was, like, a few years back. And so, they optimized protein, or at least made it at the bottom of optimal, at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight per day, in both groups, okay? And so, but the unique thing about this study, it was the first time ever we're compar- comparing vegans with omnivores. So, there were no significant differences between groups in muscle size and strength gains by the end of 12 weeks, where they were put on a progressive resistance training program.

Andrew Huberman 43:22 It was isocaloric? So, both groups-

Alan Aragon 43:24 Isocaloric, mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 43:26 Uh-huh. Meaning, uh, uh, for those that don't know what that means is, total number of calories ingested per day, same in the vegan versus omnivore group.

Alan Aragon 43:32 Yes, that's right. Isocaloric, isomacronutritional, you know, isoproteic. E- e- everything, everything is equated between the groups, nu- macronutrition-wise. No significant differences in the size and strength gains. And, um, they're suspecting... Oh, and by the way, the vegan group, their protein intake was boosted up to 1.6 grams per kilo, or 0.7 grams per pound. It was boosted up by, uh, soy protein supplementation. So, apparently, I mean, we're beginning to see that at a dose, a total daily protein at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight, the totally vegan group was able to hang in there, uh, against the omnivore group for muscle size and strength gains, at least within the conditions of the study, and at least for those 12 weeks, and at least for the, the subjects that, that were used, who weren't necessarily, you know, these high-level athletes, or, or, you know.

Andrew Huberman 44:31 So, you can, if you construct it properly, you can follow a vegan diet, as long as you get 0.7 grams-

Alan Aragon 44:37 Grams per pound.

Andrew Huberman 44:39 ... per pound of body weight.

Alan Aragon 44:39 And, and the weird thing, man, is the vegan diet overall had significantly less essential amino acid content.

Andrew Huberman 44:47 Hmm.

Alan Aragon 44:48 And significantly less branched-chain amino acid content. But apparently, the resistance training stimulus is robust enough to make protein effects, ah, almost secondary.

Andrew Huberman 45:01 Interesting.

Alan Aragon 45:02 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 45:02 Um, getting right back to exercise probably being the major lever in, in everything. Oh, well, sleep, I would argue is the major lever, uh, over time.

Alan Aragon 45:10 I, I would agree, man.

Andrew Huberman 45:11 Yeah, yeah. But I will say this, because then people think if they get one bad night's sleep to not train. I don't know if you're familiar with these recent studies showing that-

Alan Aragon 45:19 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 45:19 ... you can offset the inflammation that arrives from getting five or fewer hours of sleep the previous night-

Alan Aragon 45:25 With, with training?

Andrew Huberman 45:26 ... with exercise.

Alan Aragon 45:26 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 45:27 You just don't want to get into a habit of it.

Alan Aragon 45:29 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 45:29 So, um, but if you're on the-

Alan Aragon 45:31 Easier said than done.

Andrew Huberman 45:32 I know. If you're on the fence about whether or not to train because you're sleep-deprived, train. But don't do that more than one to two days per week, ideally. And e- even better would be to get great sleep and train. But, um-

Alan Aragon 45:43 I, I, I know you're, you're gearing up to, to hit, hit the next thing. I, I wanna mention that this study I just talked about was not a one-off. A couple years later, Montine and colleagues did the same thing, but they used mycoprotein for the vegan group.

Andrew Huberman 46:01 Mycoprotein.

Alan Aragon 46:02 It's a fungus-based protein.

Andrew Huberman 46:04 (laughs)

Alan Aragon 46:04 So, you've seen that, that, um-

Andrew Huberman 46:06 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 46:07 ... that, that, I think it's on, is it on Netflix, uh, or HBO, uh, The Last of Us? Where that fungus makes people anabolic (laughs) ?

Andrew Huberman 46:14 I haven't seen that.

Alan Aragon 46:15 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 46:15 That's what this is? It's based on this?

Alan Aragon 46:17 I'm doing a joke about a fictional show, some, some of the audience will, will chuckle or just think I just busted the most terrible dad joke ever. But, um, it's a fungus-based protein. Uh, commercially, it's called Quorn, so Q-U-O-R-N.

Andrew Huberman 46:32 Okay.

Alan Aragon 46:33 It's one of these weird, uh, types of products that is unfortunately expensive.

Andrew Huberman 46:40 Hmm.

Alan Aragon 46:41 And, um, so the plant-based or the animal-fe- free group, their protein intake was boosted with this mycoprotein, and then they were compared against omnivores with mixed, mixed protein sources. And by the end of the study, I believe it was a 12-week study, no differences, no significant differences in increases in muscle size and strength, and they, you know, progressive resistance training regimen. And once again, not necessarily highly trained people, but we basically saw the same thing. Um, as long as total daily protein is where it needs to be, then...... apparently, the, the (laughs) animal-free group can hang with the omnivores, at least for the conditions of that study. So, I, I always look at these things skeptically, um, but the mycoprotein also outperformed milk protein for muscle protein synthesis in this acute study that preceded this longitudinal study. And so, there's some weird stuff that we can look at aside from animal protein that could be just as anabolic. Um, so yeah. That, that's the story with animal versus plant and/or fungus-based (laughs) -

Andrew Huberman 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 47:56 ... protein. And so, so yeah. I just, I just had to throw in the, the montein study.

Andrew Huberman 48:02 No, it's very interesting.

Alan Aragon 48:03 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 48:03 You know, I think when people hear soy, you know, there's has been this, you know, kind of assault on soy for years-

Alan Aragon 48:09 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 48:09 ... and, um, and I've, I've avoided it not for-

Alan Aragon 48:12 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 48:12 ... any specific reason, but because I prefer other, uh, sources of calories. Um, I like meat and berries and eggs and this kinda thing. Um, but it's interesting that some of these engineered proteins and soy protein and pea protein-

Alan Aragon 48:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 48:26 ... when you really put them to the test under the right conditions, you know, they seem to, gram for gram, they seem to, uh, to perform just as well as the a- animal proteins. You did mention, however, that satiation, uh, satiety rather, is a key factor. So, I'd be curious in this study, I don't know if they measured this, whether or n- the people in the vegan group felt that they were, um, happy with what they were eating as compared to the animal, uh, protein group. You know, at the end of the day, are they still craving more food? Do they feel, um, like they desperately want a rib eye steak? In order to follow a fairly strict diet of any kind, but in particular plant-based, one has to have a good reason.

Alan Aragon 49:09 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 49:09 Uh, you know, I, I think that otherwise, you, you just kinda fall into the, the availability issue, you know? It's a lot easier to fl- to eat an omnivore diet.

Alan Aragon 49:17 Yeah. Yeah, um, that wasn't measured-

Andrew Huberman 49:20 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 49:21 ... in either of the studies. And I, I always look at these things skeptically when you use essentially untrained subjects-

Andrew Huberman 49:29 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 49:29 ... because untrained subjects are always gonna kind of incur this newbie gains effect for the training regimen, where the, the gains that you get from the resistance training alone are gonna just mask any potential advantage of either protein type. And so, um, you know, people would, will... Stu Phillips will argue with me on that all day long. We did a two-day-long, uh, Twitter argument about that, and (laughs) -

Andrew Huberman 49:59 You spent two days on an argument on, on X?

Alan Aragon 50:02 Yeah, like, Stu is, uh, is a fricking legend, man. He is a, he is a legend in the protein research area, but he will argue with two to three days on, on Twitter. And so, you know, we always end up at the same spot where, um, look, we need more research to see whether, um... And, and this wasn't about, this wasn't about vegan, uh, versus, uh, animal proteins, plant versus animal pro- this was about just total daily protein intake, period. Um, we, we just need more research on, uh, highly trained, highly resistance-trained subjects to see whether, uh, in fact, a completely plant-based protein regimen that's optimized calorically and p- total daily protein amount-wise can really run with, um, the animal-based stuff, like the, the high-quality animal-based proteins. And so, uh, it, it, it almost depends on where you wanna place your bets and, and where you, w- where you want to, uh, take your risks. So, if you're, if, if gold is on the line, if first place at a professional or national level is on the line, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if, if I would. But, uh, everybody's ideology is what it is, and some people are just kind of governed by what they wanna stick to.

Andrew Huberman 51:19 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 51:19 So, it really depends on the population and, and what the goal is.

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Andrew Huberman 54:14 I'd like to talk a little bit about body recomposition. Um, simple question to start off, is it possible to, quote-unquote, "gain muscle while at the same time losing fat?"

Alan Aragon 54:28 Yes (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 54:29 Great, that will be reassuring to people.

Alan Aragon 54:31 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 54:31 Um, does it require a caloric deficit?

Alan Aragon 54:36 This is the weird part, no. No. A- a- and, um, just super interesting, man, um, my- my friend and colleague, Chris Barakat, he collected all the studies that witnessed this recomposition phenomenon with it. Recomposition, we call it recomp, you know, a simultaneous gain in lean mass and loss in fat mass. So, he collected all the studies. He collected 10 studies, and this was a fi- th- this review was put out five years ago, so you can imagine there's probably a few more studies that have shown recomp now. So, we can say ab- at least a dozen studies have shown this phenomenon, which we didn't necessarily think was possible, uh, like 10 years ago. You know, we thought, "Okay, you need a caloric surplus to gain muscle, and oh, you need a caloric deficit to lose fat." But what happened in these studies is the recomposition phenomenon is, I think seven out of the 10 studies wa- was a lean mass gain dominant recomposition. So, in other words, more lean mass was gained than fat was lost, so there were net gains in body mass by the end of these- these trials, which would at least very strongly imply that fat was lost in a caloric surplus.

Andrew Huberman 55:51 If you were going to suggest to somebody, uh, the best way to approach this-

Alan Aragon 55:56 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 55:56 Um, let's say somebody, loosely speaking, uh, this is not a competitive athlete. This could be a man or a woman, assuming that the same advice would pertain to both, um, is willing to re- do resistance training three to four times per week, let's say three times per week.

Alan Aragon 56:12 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 56:12 Do some cardio three times per week, um, for about an hour each session for- for those. Um, and they are willing to eat maintenance calories or slightly over, a- and their goal is to gain some muscle and lose some fat. Where would you set the calories relative to, uh, their needs? Would it be an extra two to 500 calories? I realize that's hard to say 'cause you-

Alan Aragon 56:39 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 56:39 ... we should talk in percentages.

Alan Aragon 56:40 For sure.

Andrew Huberman 56:40 But let's just- let's just keep it broad for sake of a broad audience.

Alan Aragon 56:43 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 56:44 Um, how much more than maintenance should somebody ingest? And- and let's assume that when they go in the gym, they know what they're doing, they warm up for five, 10 minutes, and then they train hard. They take the sets close to failure.

Alan Aragon 56:55 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 56:55 They're doing, you know, three to six sets per body part. They're- th- they're training mea- with meaningful effort.

Alan Aragon 57:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 57:01 And when they do their cardio, they're somewhere between zone two and maybe they throw in a- a, you know, a max heart rate workout w- once a week. They do some s- some sprints in the middle of their zone two and go back to, you know. This, I think, is pretty typical of what a lot of people are willing to do or are currently doing.

Alan Aragon 57:15 I would say sort of the simple and direct answer is to try to keep the caloric surplus pretty judicious. So, 10%-ish above maintenance conditions, which co- which could be for somewhere between, uh, 200, possibly 300 calories-

Andrew Huberman 57:33 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 57:34 ... above what- what you see as maintenance. And the common thread amongst these recomposition studies was that protein was very high. Protein was somewhere between a gram to a gram and a half per pound of body weight.

Andrew Huberman 57:50 Interesting. So, now we've upped the protein intake.

Alan Aragon 57:52 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 57:52 Could we even say that the caloric, uh, this, uh, 10% above maintenance should come from quality protein?

Alan Aragon 57:58 E- exactly. Yes. Yes. And, um, there's a series of studies done by Joey Antoniot and colleagues where they fed the subjects four to 800 calories above and beyond their habitual intakes just in protein, and either recomposition happened or no significant change in body composition happened. The pro-

Andrew Huberman 58:22 Were they training?

Alan Aragon 58:23 They were training. They were resistance training. And so, what protein apparently does when you consume very high amounts of it up to, you know, a gram, a gram and a half per pound of body weight, is it just sort of spontaneously does some magical things. I- it'll drive down your intake of the other macros. It will potentially increase your exercise, uh, energy expenditure and/or your non-exercise energy expenditure. Um, it will do odd things. Like I- I talked to Joey Antoniot when he- he got some feedback from the subjects on his very high protein study where he subjected them to two grams per pound, uh...... for an eight-week period. And he had subjects come in to him saying, "Hey, I'm, I'm, like, sweating while I'm sleeping."

Andrew Huberman 59:10 When you say two grams of protein per pound of body weight-

Alan Aragon 59:12 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 59:13 ... are we talking about increasing total caloric intake or just, um, using more of one's daily caloric, uh, needs, uh, de-devoting more of that to quality protein?

Alan Aragon 59:24 See, that's the super interesting and kind of mysterious part. They're literally saying, "Okay, maintain your usual dietary habits and then just add 50 to 100 grams of protein on top."

Andrew Huberman 59:36 So you're eating an extra chicken breast and a couple scoops of whey protein or maybe some eggs as well, and-

Alan Aragon 59:41 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 59:41 ... so you're just lo- adding more quality protein-

Alan Aragon 59:44 Yes, you're adding more quality protein-

Andrew Huberman 59:44 ... on top of what you're already eating.

Alan Aragon 59:45 ... on top of what you're already eating.

Andrew Huberman 59:46 And we already learned that we can distribute that pretty much wherever we want.

Alan Aragon 59:49 (laughs) Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 59:49 Get, get, do, just do what's most comfortable for you relative to your training and other needs.

Alan Aragon 59:53 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 59:53 And you're saying then, but they're sweating in their sleep.

Alan Aragon 59:56 They're sweating in their sleep. A- a- actually, 80-

Andrew Huberman 59:58 The thermic effect.

Alan Aragon 59:58 ... 80 to 100 grams of protein, just add it, and it's a f- look, it's a, it's a free-living study, so we're not surveilling people in a metabolic ward. Uh, so the increase in protein could have translated to greater energy expenditure through a, a, you know, a number of pathways, non-exercise pathways or exercise pathways. It could have put more power to the ground during their training. Um, th- there could have been some (laughs) you know, sort of some magic thermic stuff going on. Who knows? But, um, and, and also, we can't discount the fact that, look, when you're telling people to add, let's say, 80 or 100 grams of protein to, to their habitual intake, the weird thing about (sighs) subjects self-reporting is they tend to over-report the healthy stuff that, that you assign them and under-report the unhealthy stuff.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:50 The good pupil phenomenon.

Alan Aragon 1:00:51 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:52 Yeah.

Alan Aragon 1:00:52 Exactly, exactly.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:53 Yeah, yeah.

Alan Aragon 1:00:53 And so, um, there could be some misreporting going on there. But over a series of, like, five-ish studies now, just stack the protein on top, nobody gains fat, and some people lose fat.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:04 Awesome.

Alan Aragon 1:01:04 It's, yeah, it's, it is pretty freaking awesome. Now, here's the, the, the thing that needs to be said. Okay, so there was a metabolic ward study done in 2013-ish by Bray and colleagues where they subjected the, uh, participants to escalating amounts of protein. Um, and th- it was a, a protein overfeeding study. There, there were three levels of protein intakes. There was 5% protein diet, um, a 15% protein diet, and a 30-ish percent protein diet. The calories, the total calories escalated too. There was no exercise involved with this metabolic ward study, and the subjects gained both lean mass and fat mass with the escalating protein amounts. So there's different stuff going on. When you lock people up in a metabolic ward and they can't train and then you're escalating their protein intakes an- and calories, they will gain fat and lean mass. But in free-living conditions with resistance training, if you just over-protein the subjects, they actually (sighs) have a tendency to lose fat.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:13 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 1:02:14 Uh, and it, it's, it's a really interesting phenomenon because it's been seen repeatedly.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:18 With men and women?

Alan Aragon 1:02:19 With men and women, yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:21 The message I'm getting is-

Alan Aragon 1:02:23 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:02:23 ... if you're going to add calories, add quality protein.

Alan Aragon 1:02:26 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:26 Make sure your resistance training ... Here, I'm building on the previous things we talked about. The distribution of the protein probably doesn't matter as much, uh, as just getting the total protein, uh, correct.

Alan Aragon 1:02:37 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:37 And I find it very reassuring that I can train fasted or not fasted, mostly because m- very few of us have total control of our schedule, so sometimes we need to train first thing in the morning, then we gotta catch a flight or head to work, and sometimes people only have time in the evening, this kind of thing.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:55 Um, I, I want to make sure that we talk about some of the other macronutrients.

Alan Aragon 1:02:59 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:00 Um, because carbohydrates do exist.

Alan Aragon 1:03:04 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:03:05 Um, we won't talk about fiber just now. I think ... Can we actually put fiber, um, onto the shelf quickly by saying w- fiber's good, right?

Alan Aragon 1:03:14 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:14 Okay. Fiber's good.

Alan Aragon 1:03:15 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:03:15 Get fiber.

Alan Aragon 1:03:16 The short answer, the short answer is it, is it's good.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:19 Get fiber.

Alan Aragon 1:03:20 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:03:20 Um, and get it through fruits and vegetables, and if you, if you're not doing that, get it through some supplement, but ideally through fruits and vegetables, right?

Alan Aragon 1:03:30 Fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains. Grains are a double-edged sword.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:35 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 1:03:35 You know?

Andrew Huberman 1:03:36 Right, 'ca- because they're high calorie.

Alan Aragon 1:03:37 You got the, you know, you got the refined grains, the flour foods-

Andrew Huberman 1:03:40 Yeah.

Alan Aragon 1:03:40 ... and then you have the whole grains, but even some of the whole grains, you, there's such thing as whole grain, uh, Goldfish crackers, so, you know, a bit of a treacherous little area there for people who are trying to economize on the, the junk and the calories-

Andrew Huberman 1:03:52 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 1:03:52 ... that they consume. You could still have a whole grain diet that has just a bunch of crap.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:56 Right. So fruits, vegetables, get, but get your fiber. Five-

Alan Aragon 1:04:00 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:00 Fiber's key.

Alan Aragon 1:04:01 Get fiber.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:01 But when we talk about carbohydrates, let's divide them crudely-

Alan Aragon 1:04:04 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:04 ... into starchy carbohydrates, so stuff that-

Alan Aragon 1:04:08 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:09 ... basically will melt in your mouth.

Alan Aragon 1:04:10 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:04:11 That's the way I think about it, right?

Alan Aragon 1:04:12 Okay, okay.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:12 A c- piece of cooked potato, a piece of cooked yam. You know, if you, yes, if you put a piece of cooked pasta in your mouth long enough, or even uncooked pasta, it'll eventually dissolve.

Alan Aragon 1:04:20 Or you-

Andrew Huberman 1:04:20 As opposed to-

Alan Aragon 1:04:21 Or you just inhale it (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 1:04:21 Right, or, well, don't do that. Um, or a, you know, a piece of broccoli, which, uh, you know, most of it is not going to melt in your mouth. You w- you'll be waiting, uh, several weeks for-

Alan Aragon 1:04:31 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:31 ... you know, because there's a lot of fiber there. So, um, this is the, uh, crude way of distinguishing between fibers and non-fibers, uh, you know, so starchy and non-starchy carbohydrates.

Alan Aragon 1:04:40 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:41 Starches, in some sense, are a great fuel.

Alan Aragon 1:04:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:44 They put glycogen in our liver and muscles. They can fuel things like resistance training.

Alan Aragon 1:04:48 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:48 Um, they can help us think. All the ketogenic f- folks will be like, "I think best fasted," or, "I think best-"

Alan Aragon 1:04:53 That's true.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:53 "... keto," but-

Alan Aragon 1:04:54 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:54 ... um, brain likes glucose. What is your take on carbohydrates with respect to maintaining or losing body fat?

Alan Aragon 1:05:03 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:03 Meaning, do, do carbohydrates make it harder to do that-

Alan Aragon 1:05:07 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:08 ... if one is, uh, doing everything else equally? Uh, meaning, you're getting exercise, you're-You know, you're not exceeding your caloric- daily caloric intake. Uh, is it- are starches inherently bad?

Alan Aragon 1:05:21 That's a great question. Um... I'm in- I defer to the evidence, you know, you've got- and of course evidence is its own thing. You've got- got research here, and then you have observations and anecdote here. Right?

Andrew Huberman 1:05:33 Well- well let's talk primarily about research and- I mean, anecdote is great.

Alan Aragon 1:05:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:38 Um, but it generally tends to circle around to what people find has worked best for them.

Alan Aragon 1:05:43 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:43 And I'm happy to talk about that, I'm sure you're happy to talk about that.

Alan Aragon 1:05:45 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:45 But I think, um, what I like to emphasize in this podcast and what you do so beautifully is to talk about, like, what does the best possible set of controlled studies say?

Alan Aragon 1:05:56 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:56 When lu- kind of lumped together. Unless there's one study that kind of rises above the rest because it was done so well.

Alan Aragon 1:06:02 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:02 I mean, I think... it's so hard to do quality studies in humans, so we have to have that caveat.

Alan Aragon 1:06:09 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:09 The more you control, the less natural the conditions are (laughs) . Right?

Alan Aragon 1:06:13 Yes. Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:13 The more natural the conditions are, the less it can be controlled. This is why there will never- there will always be jobs for people in nutrition and fitness, because-

Alan Aragon 1:06:20 For sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:20 ... ultimately, you bring people into a metabolic ward, it's very unnatural. You let them free range and just tell you what they ate-

Alan Aragon 1:06:28 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:29 ... they lie or they forget or they-

Alan Aragon 1:06:31 (laughs) Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:31 Uh, and they cheat.

Alan Aragon 1:06:33 Absolutely.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:33 They like sneak a- they sneak a, uh, some Starburst-

Alan Aragon 1:06:36 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:36 ... and they don't tell you about it. So that's just life, you know?

Alan Aragon 1:06:39 Even clients who are paying you a lot of money, you- you- you- you can't- you can't necessarily trust 100% of what they're reporting to you, you know, much less like a group of subjects in- in- in a study. So, um, yeah, the- the carbohydrate thing, starch, whe- whether it's starches, whether it's sugars, I mean, we... E- either one. So the body of research on carbohydrate and fat loss... You can distill it down like this, as long as between the two groups you have equated total calories and you've equated protein intake between the groups, then body fat reduction by the end of every well-controlled trial in existence basically shows no significant difference in fat loss between the groups. So (laughs) protein is kind of the great equalizer that pro- protein and- and total calories. Now here's the- the little wrinkle to that answer. If you take somebody who's on a standard Western diet and you put them on a ketogenic diet or if you control the experiment with like kind of a high carb, uh, low fat type of regular run of the mill control diet versus a ketogenic diet and you don't equate protein, then the ketogenic diet will beat the crap out of the control diet every time with fat loss and weight loss because it has more protein.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:00 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 1:08:01 And in some cases, uh, you know, if you go as extreme as like carnivore type diet and stuff like that, then you're looking at a narrowing of your options. So the reduction in variety and possibilities also leads to less total caloric intake. So with ketogenic diets they're routinely is wha- when it is an ad libitum ketogenic diet that you put the subjects on.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:26 Can you maybe explain ad libitum, um, to people, uh-

Alan Aragon 1:08:29 Sure, sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:30 ... whose Latin is lacking or haven't worked in a lab yet?

Alan Aragon 1:08:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:33 Yeah.

Alan Aragon 1:08:33 Yeah. Okay. No, thanks for that. Um, so ad libitum means that you are not consciously calculating or restricting, you are just eating as desired.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:44 What you want. Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 1:08:45 As desired. And so when you assign somebody a ketogenic diet where you say, "Hey, avoid this, this and this and that carb food, avoid carbs and that may- you can eat as much as you- you feel like with the proteins and the fats. Go, go do it." What happens when you assign somebody that is they spontaneously eat across the range of studies somewhere between four to all the way n- 900 calories less per day compared to their habitual intakes or compared to the control diet intakes. That's just what happens.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:16 That's interesting, right?

Alan Aragon 1:09:17 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:17 Because they- they could eat more if they want, they're not being restricted.

Alan Aragon 1:09:20 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:21 I think this speaks to how satiating protein is.

Alan Aragon 1:09:24 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:24 And especially how satiating protein and fats are in combination. I mean, I mean if I'm hungry on a long drive and I can only eat one thing, I'm assuming I have water which I would want with me, I would... Like I'm out on the road, I'm on Interstate 5, I've got no food with me, everything's closed, it's Christmas Day but there's a In-N-Out Burger, they're probably closed too, and I can get two hamburger patties, that's my pick. Not the french fries. Um, even though calorie for calorie I think, you know, probably landing about the same place more or less because there's just something so inherently satiating about protein.

Alan Aragon 1:10:02 Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:03 So that makes sense, the- the keto diet, um, makes sense. The issue I, uh, have with the keto diet is that... until pretty recently it was tougher to, uh, remain in the general social context of life.

Alan Aragon 1:10:18 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:18 I mean, you can't have a cracker.

Alan Aragon 1:10:20 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:20 You c- or I don't like crackers but you can't have a piece of sourdough bread.

Alan Aragon 1:10:24 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:10:25 Tha- that's a, uh...

Alan Aragon 1:10:26 That's rough.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:27 That's rough, right?

Alan Aragon 1:10:27 We love- we love sourdough around here.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:28 Yeah, and then people, uh, struggle a lot with holidays. Right, I think- I think keto is tough for people around the holidays. Um,

Andrew Huberman 1:10:36 as long as we're in this category of discussion-

Alan Aragon 1:10:38 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:39 ... um... what are your thoughts about inflammation? And- and here's why I ask...

Alan Aragon 1:10:45 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:45 ... and I ask it this way-

Alan Aragon 1:10:46 All right.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:46 ... is I know many, many people who've struggled with their weight for a very long time.

Alan Aragon 1:10:51 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:52 Uh, a lot of male friends, some female friends who when they adopt a- a diet of the following things, meat, fish, eggs, Parmesan cheese as the only category of dairy-

Alan Aragon 1:11:04 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:04 ... or so hard cheese, fruit and vegetables, olive oil, butter, coffee, tea fine but no sodas or anything except diet sodas, they lose significant amounts of body fat-

Alan Aragon 1:11:18 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:18 ... probably some water too.... so they're not eating any starches, no rice, no oatmeal, no bread, no pizza, nothing. But they ha- have all managed, this is anecdote, but they've all managed to lose anywhere from 25 to 50 or even 60 pounds. They're exercising typically-

Alan Aragon 1:11:35 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:11:36 ... sometimes just cardio. So significant amounts of, of body weight, and they keep it off. And a number of their health challenges seem to resolve themselves perhaps secondarily to the weight loss. But I often wonder whether or not this, quote unquote, what some people call a low inflammation diet-

Alan Aragon 1:11:56 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:11:56 ... because there's so few processed and highly processed foods in this regimen, has additional benefits that start to synergize with the, the fat loss. And, you know, it's remarkable how, how much better they look, how much better they feel, and they can maintain that pretty well 'cause you can say, "You know, I'll pass on the, on the bread and the, and the pie, but, you know, I'm going to have a double serving of turkey and Brussels sprouts." And I, you know, it's kind of remarkable what can be accomplished with what I just described, and yet I don't know a name for that diet.

Alan Aragon 1:12:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:25 And it's not my-

Alan Aragon 1:12:26 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:26 ... it's not what I follow. I eat starches. But, um, what are your thoughts on inflammation and how certain macronutrient profiles perhaps are pro-inflammatory or anti-inflammatory, or something people rarely talk about, which is inflammatory neutral, kind of keep you in a neither high nor low inflammation state-

Alan Aragon 1:12:45 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:12:45 ... but just kind of a normal fluctuations in inflammation? Long question, but I feel like it's one I've wanted to ask for a while, and you're the guy to ask.

Alan Aragon 1:12:52 Okay, so I'm, I'm going to speculate a little bit. Uh, I think that any diet that facilitates substantial fat loss is going to lower the amount of inflammatory cytokines circulating and emanating from the adipose tissue. And so if you can get that body fat down, then you can get chronic low-grade inflammation down. Uh, if that body fat is reduced from everywhere, the subcutaneous space especially, the visceral space, then you're going to do a lot of good things for long-term health. Um, the reason why the diet that you described is so effective at this is because it lacks hyper-palatability, and so the way that you create hyper-palatability... Hyper-palatability is basically the tendency for food to be very flavorful, very delicious, and very easy to passively overconsume. And so the formula for hyper-palatability is basically refined carbs, fat, mixed together, salt it, mm, and/or make it sweet. And there's your formula for food that is easily passively overconsumed. And the diet that you described doesn't have these ultra-processed, highly engineered fat-carb co- refined carb-and-fat combo foods that we are just kind of driven to just inhale down.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:30 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 1:14:31 Um, and so I- I- I think that my view could possibly il- be a little bit too simplistic, but I think the inflammation issue is really tied to, uh, uh, an excess body fat issue.

Andrew Huberman 1:14:42 Mm-hmm. I'm very grateful for that answer, and, and, um, again, I've seen so many friends now lose significant amounts of body fat and stick with this diet. It's also one that if one were to have a slice of cake or a piece of pizza, you're not really deviating that far from the, from the total contour of the nutritional plan. It's not like you're suddenly out of keto or something.

Alan Aragon 1:15:06 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:06 Um, and they don't tend to cascade into binges and things of that sort.

Alan Aragon 1:15:09 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:10 I will say that most of these people also quit drinking alcohol at the same time, which probably-

Alan Aragon 1:15:14 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:14 ... has its own benefits.

Alan Aragon 1:15:15 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:16 We'll return to alcohol a little bit later.

Alan Aragon 1:15:17 And there are some nutrients that are directly anti-inflammatory, like omega-3 fatty acids, huge literature on their anti-inflammatory effects, and so...

Andrew Huberman 1:15:25 Do you supplement with those personally?

Alan Aragon 1:15:28 (laughs) I do.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:29 Fish- you take fish oil.

Alan Aragon 1:15:30 I, I do, and I know that there's some, uh, controversy and some, some infighting with, uh, the idea of supplementing with fish oil now. People are afraid of atrial fibrillation and things like that. But, ah, you know, I've, I've been doing it, and, um, and if you look at the literature, especially, uh, the, the randomized control trials, um, it is mostly good stuff, man. I mean, you, you could find negative literature on almost anything that you do.

Andrew Huberman 1:15:57 Sure.

Alan Aragon 1:15:57 But, uh, on balance, I am still comfortable with supplementing with fish oil at this point in time, regardless of, uh, the mounting evidence that, oh, it might not do anything, or, oh, it might have this or that potentially adverse effect. I kind of think it's a no-brainer if you're not somebody who eats fatty fish regularly through the week.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:17 Mm-hmm. Yeah, the high quality sources of fatty fish tend to be very expensive.

Alan Aragon 1:16:22 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:23 Um, and they're harder and harder to find, and talk about controversy, you get into this debate about whether, like, different sources of salmon, and it gets really messy. Um, I'm sure there are great sources out there, but that's a whole discussion unto itself. I take fish oil, also have for many years. I plan to continue doing it, and, um, you know, so I'm grateful to hear that you do as well-

Alan Aragon 1:16:43 Yeah, we're, we're both on that-

Andrew Huberman 1:16:44 ... because you're the expert.

Alan Aragon 1:16:45 We're both on that train. We're rebels.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:46 Yeah, so the, um, the, yeah, the anti-inflammation effect, if nothing else, um, seems to warrant that.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:52 I'd like to, um, I'd like to talk about sugar.

Alan Aragon 1:16:56 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:16:57 I've had people on this podcast, um, sit where you're sitting and basically paint a picture of sugar that it is not quite as bad as crack cocaine and meth, but not too far from that.

Alan Aragon 1:17:09 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:17:10 Kind of exaggerating. And I've had, um, people who land in the more, um, kind of tempered response to sugar, but let's define sugar.

Alan Aragon 1:17:19 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:17:19 Um...We're not talking... When I say sugar, I'm not talking about fructose in fruit, because in fruit you've got, uh, fructose, but you've got fiber and there's a high water content. And some... Sure, some fruits have higher fructose content than others. Mangoes versus apples, for instance, or something of that sort. But when I'm talking about sugar, I'm talking about if one looks at a package or a label and sees added sugars, how bad are added sugars? Because those are really the ones that tend to-

Alan Aragon 1:17:52 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:17:53 ... you know, fall into this bin of, quote-unquote, "bad sugar" in a lot of people's minds.

Alan Aragon 1:17:58 Okay. So, they, they, they dilute the, uh, the nutritive value of the diet, and they contribute to hyper-palatability. If you're talking about extrinsic sugars added to, to the diet, you know, they, there... only... Really only two sources of intrinsic, um, sugars are in fruit and in, in milk. Um, everything else, you're, you're pretty much adding it, with the exception of, like, maybe agave, but that's kind of a, a, a rare esoteric thing. But added sugars to the diet should be consumed judiciously. Uh, the working, um, recommendation is to try to limit added sugars to the diet to 10% of total calories. So, if you're somebody who likes to put maple syrup on whatever you might do, or somebody who likes to put honey on whatever you might do, then you may want to limit that to... Typical, let's say 2,000-calorie diet, you might want to limit it to, like, a maximum of 40, 50 grams a day.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:04 It still seems high.

Alan Aragon 1:19:05 It does. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:19:06 40, 50 grams?

Alan Aragon 1:19:08 If, if that-

Andrew Huberman 1:19:08 Who's eating that much sugar?

Alan Aragon 1:19:09 If that... Me. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:19:11 Oh, really? You have a sweet tooth?

Alan Aragon 1:19:12 No, no, I love honey and I, and I love maple syrup.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:15 Ah. See, I have a savory tooth.

Alan Aragon 1:19:17 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:19:17 Like, if I... I have to try and not eat the entire block of Parmesan cheese.

Alan Aragon 1:19:22 I have both, man. I've, I've- (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:19:24 (laughs)

Alan Aragon 1:19:25 I, I always joke that, that I have a inner fat boy within me, but I actually have been technically obese by BMI standards, like, uh, 10 years-ish back.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:34 You're, uh, how old now?

Alan Aragon 1:19:36 53.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:37 Great. Well, you-

Alan Aragon 1:19:37 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:37 ... seem to be in great shape. No hormone augmentation. We clarified that earlier. I asked.

Alan Aragon 1:19:42 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:19:42 This is what guys ask each other nowadays, "You on... Are you doing any hormone augmentation?" "No." So, um, Alan says no, and I believe him completely. But yeah, you're in great shape at 53.

Alan Aragon 1:19:51 Thank you.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:51 Um, and you have a sweet tooth and a savory tooth. So-

Alan Aragon 1:19:54 I do, man.

Andrew Huberman 1:19:55 So how do you contend with it?

Alan Aragon 1:19:56 I do. Oh. Okay, so that's a great question, 'cause I can dish out something practical here. Protein powder. Protein powder satisfies the heck out of my sweet tooth. And, um, I, I actually don't have the full 50 grams of, uh, added sugar. I might add, like, a tablespoon of, um, maple syrup to my coffee in the-

Andrew Huberman 1:20:16 To your coffee? (laughs)

Alan Aragon 1:20:16 ... in, in the day, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:17 Sorry, I'm just laughing because-

Alan Aragon 1:20:18 Yeah, dude, dude. Okay, so you know those moka, moka pot thingies?

Andrew Huberman 1:20:22 Oh, yeah. Oh, moka pot? Sorry.

Alan Aragon 1:20:23 It's called moka pot. Um, it's like some...

Andrew Huberman 1:20:26 It's a piece of hardware?

Alan Aragon 1:20:28 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:29 Oh, okay.

Alan Aragon 1:20:29 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:29 Okay, I-

Alan Aragon 1:20:30 It's the thing where you... It, it's this odd, like, hourglass

Andrew Huberman 1:20:34 Oh, right. It's like an hourglass-

Alan Aragon 1:20:35 ... that you're stealing.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:35 ... uh, shaped, uh, coffee pot.

Alan Aragon 1:20:36 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:37 Yeah.

Alan Aragon 1:20:37 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:37 Okay.

Alan Aragon 1:20:38 So, I, I have that. And, um, what I'm trying to do, I'm trying to duplicate the, uh, the, the, the Thai coffee. Is it Thai?

Andrew Huberman 1:20:48 Mm-hmm.

Alan Aragon 1:20:48 What, what is it? It's-

Andrew Huberman 1:20:49 Thai iced tea?

Alan Aragon 1:20:49 ... really freaking good coffee that either-

Andrew Huberman 1:20:52 Oh, Vietnamese.

Alan Aragon 1:20:53 ... Vietnamese coffee.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:54 Vietnamese coffee.

Alan Aragon 1:20:54 Vietnamese coffee. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:20:54 Yeah, I love Vietnamese food. I don't drink the Vietnamese coffee. It's too sweet for me.

Alan Aragon 1:20:58 Dude-

Andrew Huberman 1:20:58 But-

Alan Aragon 1:20:59 I'm, I'm trying to do a version of that with the moka pot. And if I put ma- maple syrup in that, a tablespoon, it's freaking awesome. And I have that with, uh, with half and half. It's, it's really good. Um-

Andrew Huberman 1:21:10 So you got a, you got a fat-sugar combination, plus caffeine.

Alan Aragon 1:21:13 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:21:13 You do this in the morning before you train?

Alan Aragon 1:21:15 I've been doing it. I go through these phases. But I, I have that. And so the extent of added sugar in my diet is that tablespoon of, of maple syrup. So, I... You know, I do agree with you. 50 grams could, could be a little bit up there.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:27 Uh, listen, I'm, I'm not here to judge.

Alan Aragon 1:21:29 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:21:30 I... Like I said, if I had a sweet tooth, I-

Alan Aragon 1:21:32 But-

Andrew Huberman 1:21:32 What's interesting, I used to have one. I lost it over the course of about a decade.

Alan Aragon 1:21:37 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:38 I used to love, like-

Alan Aragon 1:21:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:38 ... Sour Patch gummies and gummies, and I love gummy... I love fruity tastes and that kind of thing. I lost it by doing something that probably has no scientific basis.

Alan Aragon 1:21:49 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:49 But, uh, I heard years ago that if I took a teaspoon of L-glutamine-

Alan Aragon 1:21:54 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 1:21:55 ... and put it in high fat... I- in half and half, in cream basically, and took a shot of that twice a day, that it would kill my sugar cravings.

Alan Aragon 1:22:03 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:03 And I did that, and it weaned me off sugar. And then I increased my protein intake. So, it could have been any combination of things.

Alan Aragon 1:22:11 Got it.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:11 Or it could be total placebo.

Alan Aragon 1:22:13 Got it.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:13 I mean, so I, I want to acknowledge that. Um, although-

Alan Aragon 1:22:16 I-

Andrew Huberman 1:22:17 ... I've recommended this to some self-professed sugar addicts.

Alan Aragon 1:22:21 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:21 And they're like, "Yeah, it kills the sugar craving," but then they always add the, "But I still miss my..." you know, whatever. They long for the, the sugary thing. I-

Alan Aragon 1:22:30 See-

Andrew Huberman 1:22:30 ... I don't any longer.

Alan Aragon 1:22:31 ... this is where I headed off the, the, the sweet stuff. I make protein smoothies, and they're just... They're artificially sweetened, so it satisfies, um, that, you know, that dessert craving, if you will.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:47 Well, along the lines of artificial sweeteners-

Alan Aragon 1:22:49 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:22:50 ... um, why, if you want something sweet, wouldn't you just replace the, the honey with, like, stevia? 'Cause it doesn't create the same, um, satiety that, that the maple syrup does for you.

Alan Aragon 1:23:04 Oh, man. Okay, so maple syrup aside, um, the... You get caloric savings, you know, if, if, if your protein powder is artificially sweetened, let's say with, with stevia or sucralose or monk fruit, or what, whatever is being used in the product.Um, you get caloric savings and you just kind of get the- the macro (laughs) savings, if you will, as well. And so protein powders are like, I mean, in my opinion, they're just, uh, such a breakthrough because they satisfy the protein requirements or they significantly augment the protein requirements, and they take care of, like, essentially having something that- that is the experience of a dessert, to me anyway. I- I make some really good fruit smoothies. I use frozen fruit, protein powder. Um, sometimes I do like a mocha type of smoothie. Sometimes I do like a tropical fruit type of smoothie.

Andrew Huberman 1:23:58 It's like a milkshake.

Alan Aragon 1:23:59 Yeah. It- it is like a milkshake, right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:02 So

Andrew Huberman 1:24:03 you mentioned artificial sweeteners.

Alan Aragon 1:24:04 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:04 So let- let's, uh, let's double-click there.

Alan Aragon 1:24:07 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:08 I've seen some literature that points to the possibility that they might be, quote, "bad for the gut microbiome." Those are animal data. There are some human data.

Alan Aragon 1:24:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:17 But I think nowadays saying artificial sweeteners is too broad.

Alan Aragon 1:24:21 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:21 As we say in science, there are lumpers and splitters, and I think we need to split that because there's low-calorie sweeteners like stevia, right, um, that are not artificial. They're-

Alan Aragon 1:24:31 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:31 ... sort of technically plant-derived. And then there's artificial sweeteners like aspartame, sucralose, saccharin.

Alan Aragon 1:24:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:37 And my understanding is that sucralose and saccharin have some bad properties if consumed in excess. What is the deal with artificial sweeteners? So we're talking aspartame-

Alan Aragon 1:24:48 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:48 ... sucralose, saccharin. Let's just focus on those.

Alan Aragon 1:24:51 Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:24:51 And let's leave aside monk fruit, stevia, et cetera, for the time being.

Alan Aragon 1:24:56 Okay. Y- you can pretty much simplify it by saying out of all the sweeteners that we study, whether they're the natural kind or whether they're the artificial kind, it's saccharin that is showing a lot of the adverse potential. So, for example, the negative effects on gut microbiome that have led to impaired glucose tolerance, uh, in humans over a short period of time. Of course, they... You know, the dose is debatable that they're flooding these humans with. But nevertheless, it's saccharin that showed these effects, um, with even body weight gain, comparing saccharin, sucralose, and I believe it could have been one of the others, aspartame, the saccharin group apparently maybe appetite was dysregulated, uh, actually gained weight. And so there is something about saccharin that is not great as far as the range of, uh, low-calorie sweeteners go. But thankfully, saccharin is almost commercially extinct. It's hard to find saccharin unless you go to a Denny's or some sort of greasy spoon place and you get those pink, little pink packets. So, um, now we've got this other range of low-calorie sweeteners to choose from, and it's a little bit of a mystery of which of these low-calorie sweeteners has the best health and, um, body comp proposition to it. But they're all pretty much in, in the same boat. You can find a bunch of good stuff with stevia. Like, the dirt on artificial sweeteners, you can find a bunch of potential dirt on aspartame. You can find a potential, uh,