Alan Aragon on Huberman Lab: How to Lose Fat and Gain Muscle

1. 0:00 – 2:17

   Alan Aragon

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Alan Aragon. Alan Aragon is one of the most influential and respected figures in the fields of fitness and nutrition. The reason for that is because of his strict reliance on evidence-based information, and because he's co-authored some of the most highly cited and respected studies and reviews on nutrition and fitness. His expertise covers nutrition and training for women and for men, and for anyone who's seeking better health, fat loss, muscle and strength gain, or all of the above. And in today's episode, we cover all of that and much more. Alan clarifies the myths and the facts around things like seed oils, whether or not it's better to do your workouts fasted for sake of fat-burning, low-calorie and artificial sweeteners, sugar, alcohol, collagen, and more. Alan also explains how to determine your actual protein needs. Despite all the discussion nowadays about protein, there's still a lot of confusion about this actually. He covers the real science on meal timing, protein and carbohydrate intake relative to your training, how women's hormone cycles impact their training and nutrition needs, and eating and training for body composition changes for anyone. There is just so much advice and information online, but also in the peer-reviewed literature on nutrition and fitness nowadays, which makes it very challenging for anyone seeking to understand and implement what really matters toward their fitness and body composition goals. If ever there was a voice of practical reason who is grounded in the peer-reviewed data, but who is also willing to acknowledge individual differences and preferences when it comes to fitness and nutrition, it's Alan Aragon. And today, he shares that information with us, and he also makes it clear and actionable as to what really works. Thanks to Alan, by the end of today's episode, you will be armed with the latest and best knowledge on nutrition and fitness that you can apply. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Alan Aragon.

2. 2:17 – 9:16

   Dietary Protein & Protein Synthesis Limits?, Tool: Post-Resistance Training & Protein Intake (30-50g)

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:17

      Alan Aragon, welcome.

   2. AAAlan Aragon2:19

      Andrew, it is awesome to be here. Like, literally awesome. I'm not... It's no exaggeration. This is, uh... I'm super stoked, man. Thank you for having me on the show.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman2:28

      Yeah. Well, I've learned a ton from you through our online correspondence, and we've met once before in person. Let's get down to some important, um, topics be- that are very actionable, because this is what I love so much about your work. It clarifies so much of the confusion that exists out there. Uh, I think this is really one of the signatures of your work, is that it clarifies. Let's start off with something that many people have heard, which is that we can only assimilate 30 grams of protein per meal.

   4. AAAlan Aragon3:01

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman3:02

      And the simple question is, what constitutes a meal? Like, if I eat 30 grams of protein, and an hour later, I eat 30 grams of protein, did I just eat two meals? Can I assimilate 30 grams in each? And can I assimilate more than 30 grams of protein under certain circumstances? So, what's the deal with this protein assimilation thing?

   6. AAAlan Aragon3:22

      Okay. Well, you elucidated one of the issues right in the question. It's like, are we talking about isolated, quickly digesting protein, or are we talking about a slower-digesting protein, or are we talking about any one of those within the context of a mixed macronutrient meal with carbohydrate and fat and fiber? All of those conditions alter the behavior of what happens physiologically, and so the origin of the whole, you know, 25 grams of protein max is all you can use is the confusion of the, um, f- th- two separate concepts. So, there is digestion and utilization at the kind of entire-body level, where protein has various metabolic fates for various systems, um, and just various homeostatic needs of the body. And then, there is the specific phenomenon of the muscle anabolic response, or muscle protein synthesis. So, we have to separate, okay, digestion and absorption in general, or muscle protein synthesis. So, the 25, 30-gram cutoff, it's usually listed at like, some people say 20, uh, that refers specifically to muscle protein synthesis, where there seems to be a plateau at 25-ish, 30-ish grams. And we thought this all the way until, gosh, from, uh, the, the late '90s, early 2000s, all the way up till 2016-ish or so when, 2016, when McNaughton and colleagues compared 20 grams of protein versus 40 grams of protein. But instead of doing what previous researchers did with the training bouts being very low volume, like eight to 12 sets, you know, a, a couple, a couple different leg exercises, you know, leg extensions, leg presses, eight to 12 sets total, and then you assess the muscle protein synthetic response to the protein dose. What McNaughton and colleagues did, they hit the subjects with a 24-ish set regimen, full body. So, it was a little bit more ecologically valid in the sense that they tried to, um, mirror what goes on in the real world with training regimens, with people who are trying to build muscle and really elicit this anabolic response. So, when they ran this experiment, and they compared 20 versus 40 grams of protein, the 40 grams of protein actually had a greater muscle protein synthesis response than the 20 grams. And it took us all the way t- 2016 to, to figure that out, and then an- a series of studies just kind of progressed from there. And-... proceeded to kind of debunk this idea that muscle protein synthesis plateaus at 20, 25 grams. But... Now, i- and, and there's some interesting recent studies on that as well.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman6:21

      Up to 100 grams, as I recall.

   8. AAAlan Aragon6:23

      That's e- exactly the study I was going to bring up. That's by, uh, Jorn Tromlin and colleagues, where they compared a 25 gram dose with a 100 gram dose post-exercise. They used a slow digesting protein. They used milk protein, which is 80% casein, which is a slow digesting, 20% whey, which is fast. So mostly a slow digesting protein. And there was significantly greater muscle protein synthesis with the 100 gram dose compared to the 25 gram dose. But my big issue with that study is they, they really, really needed to include an intermediate dose to see whether there would have been a plateau in MPS with something like, let's say, 40 or 50 grams. And that's because there's a lot of other research seeing that plateau somewhere between 30 and 50 grams. So I wish Jorn et al included an intermediate dose with that.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman7:17

      Maybe a future study. Let me just, uh, pause you for a second and ask a couple questions.

   10. AAAlan Aragon7:21

       Sure.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman7:21

       Um, if you can give an across the board recommendation-

   12. AAAlan Aragon7:25

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman7:25

       ... of how much protein people should consume post resistance training-

   14. AAAlan Aragon7:30

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman7:30

       ... let's just leave cardiovascular training separately for the moment. Post resistance training-

   16. AAAlan Aragon7:35

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman7:35

       ... what would that number be? Would it be 20, 30, 50, or 100? Should it scale with body weight? And how long after training should one consume that protein if the goal is muscle protein synthesis?

   18. AAAlan Aragon7:49

       To maximize muscle protein synthesis, regardless of whether it's post exercise... And, and MPS will be larger with the protein dosing post-exercise than at, at resting or fasting. To maximize MPS, we really haven't seen doses, uh, beyond, uh, 50-ish grams, thir- 30, 30 or so to 50. Um, my colleague Brad Showen- Schoenfeld and I, we scoured the literature and we wrote this paper on what is the maximal anabolic dose of protein per meal for the goal of muscle building. And we boiled it down to somewhere between .4 to roughly .6 grams per kilogram of body weight. And so, in freedom units, uh, we're talking .2 to .25 grams per pound. And that is what appears to max out muscle protein synthesis.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman8:47

       .2 to .5 grams per pound.

   20. AAAlan Aragon8:49

       .2 to .25.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman8:51

       .25?

   22. AAAlan Aragon8:52

       Yes.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman8:52

       Okay.

   24. AAAlan Aragon8:52

       Yeah, so like about a quarter of your, of your body weight in pounds, if you're looking at grams of protein, to maximize per meal-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman8:59

       Muscle protein. That's, yes, per meal. Okay, c- I... Sorry, because I think many people-

   26. AAAlan Aragon9:04

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman9:04

       ... including myself are going to say, "Okay, but this is only in the meal post-workout?" I mean, I, I wake up in the morning and I-

   28. AAAlan Aragon9:11

       Mm-hmm.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman9:12

       ... try to work out before I eat 'cause I like to do that.

   30. AAAlan Aragon9:14

       Yeah.
3. 9:16 – 15:53

   Training Fasted, Post-Exercise Anabolic Window, Tool: Total Daily Protein

   1. AHAndrew Huberman9:16

      let's assume two conditions just for simplicity.

   2. AAAlan Aragon9:20

      Sure.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman9:20

      Somebody did resistance training in the previous two hours.

   4. AAAlan Aragon9:24

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman9:25

      Or... And, and they're trying to evaluate how much protein to eat at that meal in order to maximize muscle protein synthesis-

   6. AAAlan Aragon9:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman9:32

      Or they're eating a meal separate fr- on a day they're not resistance training.

   8. AAAlan Aragon9:37

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman9:37

      Right?

   10. AAAlan Aragon9:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman9:38

       And so, and then, uh, the... As just kind of a, a generic example of a meal that doesn't follow resistance training-

   12. AAAlan Aragon9:44

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman9:44

       ... I- in a window of two hours or so, how much protein should be consumed at these two different meals?

   14. AAAlan Aragon9:50

       The answer to that is so weird, Andrew, honestly. Um-

   15. AHAndrew Huberman9:53

       Really? Why does it have to be so weird?

   16. AAAlan Aragon9:55

       It, it's freaking weird and it's complicated.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman9:57

       Oh.

   18. AAAlan Aragon9:58

       Uh, that's because... Okay, so if we go all the way back to 2003, 2004, and then we walk forward 20 years. Um, so John Ivy and Robert Portman put out this book called Nutrient Timing, and they focused on this narrow post-exercise window of opportunity they called it, so the, the anabolic window. And the concept was you needed to consume protein and quickly digesting carbs, so fast digesting protein, lightning fast, highly glycemic, highly insulinemic carb source together within, within 30 to 60 minutes post-exercise in order to maximize the anabolic response, maximize recovery, and then maximize your muscle gain. So that was their hypothesis. This was all based on subjects who were training after an overnight fast. And so what happens when you consume a meal pre-exercise, or at any point let's say, and a, a regular old mixed meal, medium size, the anabolic/anti-catabolic effect of that meal is going to last anywhere from three to six hours depending on the size of the meal. So when you're somebody whose goal it is, above all the other goals, is to gain muscle at the quickest rate possible, you're almost never gonna train fasted. You're gonna have a pre-exercise meal at some point, at least a couple hours pre-exercise. And so when you're training, you actually still have these substrates in circulation through the exercise about... And oftentimes, like if somebody has a meal, like an hour pre-exercise, they're still absorbing that pre-exercise meal post-exercise. So we looked at this whole post-exercise period as something that just doesn't necessarily have any external validity. I- it doesn't have relevance to real world-... training conditions, where people are not training fasted. And so, what we did was, we did a couple of things. First, we wrote a narrative review criticizing the post-exercise anabolic window, and this was in 2013. We kind of pissed off all the researchers who did the seminal work in that area.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman12:26

       I'm sensing a theme here.

   20. AAAlan Aragon12:27

       (laughs)

   21. AHAndrew Huberman12:28

       No, I was just teasing.

   22. AAAlan Aragon12:29

       And then we actually, and we did a meta-analysis of the existing literature looking at the anabolic window thing. And, um, for the listeners, um, a meta-analysis is a study of the studies. You collect all of the studies on a given question, and then you kind of see, you look at, you know, effect sizes, and you sort of see wh- where the evidence leans, whether there's an ef- you know, a significant or meaningful effect or not. And so, we did this meta-analysis, and we, we collected studies that compared a, a protein timing condition, where protein was timed within an hour, either pre or post-exercise, and then the control group of the study would have to have protein a minimum of two hours of nutrient neglect on both sides of the training bout. So, we collected all the studies that compared these conditions, and, um, we had a, a, a brilliant stats guy, James Krieger. He ran the regression analysis, and essentially, we found that as long as total daily protein was about 1.66, 1.7 grams per kilogram of body weight, so about .7 grams per pound, as long as total daily protein was at that or more, then the timing relative to the training bout didn't make a difference.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman13:49

       This is important for people to hear because what this translates to in my ears is a very simple takeaway, which is that you don't need to obsess about the post-training anabolic window, especially if you're eating prior to training.

   24. AAAlan Aragon14:07

       Yes.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman14:07

       Because you have nutrients circulating. Now, if you eat your last bite of food at 8:00 PM and you wake up at 7:00 AM and you're training at 10:00 AM then perhaps-

   26. AAAlan Aragon14:16

       Sure.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman14:17

       ... by the time you finish your leg workout or whatever resistance training workout, you would want to prioritize getting some protein and other nutrients into your system. What you're saying basically, um, it makes it, i- it's so logical now that I hear it, uh, which is that you have nutrients circulating in your body and stored in your glycogen, and so you're pulling from a reservoir. If fasted doesn't necessarily mean starving.

   28. AAAlan Aragon14:40

       General rule of thumb, if you're burping your pre-exercise meal towards the end of your workout, then you don't need to run towards the su- (laughs) -

   29. AHAndrew Huberman14:48

       Oh, this is why I don't, uh, like to ingest anything prior to training-

   30. AAAlan Aragon14:51

       Okay, okay.
4. 15:53 – 23:00

   Daily Protein Intake, Timing & Exercise, Muscle Strength/Size

   1. AAAlan Aragon15:53

   2. AHAndrew Huberman15:53

      Even if it's only distributed across two meals? Like, let's say, um, I train in the morning.

   3. AAAlan Aragon15:58

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman16:00

      Uh, maybe I have a, uh, some caffeine and a scoop of a, you know, protein shake before, like, with some whey protein, maybe a few almonds to, you know, slow digestion down or whatever, um, train, and then I don't get to eat until 3:00 PM-

   5. AAAlan Aragon16:14

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman16:14

      ... and I only train for an hour, let's say.

   7. AAAlan Aragon16:16

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman16:16

      And then at 3:00 PM I have a little bit of a chicken breast and a salad, maybe a slice of bread 'cause I'm o- I'm on the fly, and then that night I get home and I'm hungry and I eat two rib eye steaks. I'm exaggerating here. I wouldn't do that. I'd like to, but I don't.

   9. AAAlan Aragon16:29

      (laughs)

   10. AHAndrew Huberman16:31

       Those two rib eye steaks-

   11. AAAlan Aragon16:31

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman16:32

       ... probably give you 75 or even 100 grams of protein-

   13. AAAlan Aragon16:36

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman16:36

       ... and a bunch of other things too.

   15. AAAlan Aragon16:37

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman16:37

       Can you use all of that for muscle protein synthesis?

   17. AAAlan Aragon16:41

       The short answer is yes. Um, the nuanced answer is, let me tell you about a couple studies. (laughs)

   18. AHAndrew Huberman16:47

       Okay. Well, as you do that, but, but-

   19. AAAlan Aragon16:50

       (laughs)

   20. AHAndrew Huberman16:50

       ... l- l- let me ask you a little differently.

   21. AAAlan Aragon16:52

       Sure.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman16:52

       Not, not to, not to shut down the, the, the emphasis on studies 'cause that's why you're here, but is there anything wrong with consuming high or very high protein meal every once in a while, especially if you're not eating much or consuming much protein throughout the day? And the reason I ask this is for practical reasons. Many people find it difficult to distribute their protein evenly through the day.

   23. AAAlan Aragon17:20

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman17:21

       Many people also find it difficult to get enough protein in the middle of the day meals or the morning meals. It can be done, and I know people will say, "Well, you have some eggs and some protein." There are ways to do it, sure.

   25. AAAlan Aragon17:32

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman17:33

       But at least in this country, most people tend to emphasize dinner as their largest meal, for better or worse. And you can usually order high quality, high protein foods in a restaurant, like a steak, chicken breast, fish, et cetera. So, a lot of people stack their protein heavily towards the end of the day.

   27. AAAlan Aragon17:51

       Sure.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman17:52

       Assuming caloric load is appropriate, et cetera, is there anything fundamentally wrong or bad about doing that from the perspective of body composition and health?

   29. AAAlan Aragon18:03

       I would say no. Um, and then there's levels to it, right? Um, like what population are we looking at? Are we looking at guys who are trying to win a national competition in bodybuilding, for example-

   30. AHAndrew Huberman18:15

       No.
5. 23:00 – 26:46

   Sponsors: Carbon & Wealthfront

   1. AAAlan Aragon23:00

   2. AHAndrew Huberman23:00

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Carbon. Carbon is a diet coaching app built by nutrition expert, Dr. Layne Norton.I've used Carbon for more than three years now, and I have to say, having been interested in fitness and in my nutrition for more than three decades, it's among the most powerful tools for nutrition coaching and effective weight management that I've ever encountered. Especially if your goal is like mine, which is to maintain or build muscle while also losing fat. Now, I'm turning 50 years old this September, and even though I consider myself in pretty good shape, and I've been training for a long time and trying to eat right, one of my goals is to hit 50 in the absolute best shape of my life. To do that, I'm dialing in my nutrition using Carbon, with the goals of increasing my muscle mass, increasing my strength, while also decreasing my body fat. I've been raving about the Carbon app to friends and to family and to members of my Huberman Lab team over the last few years, and everyone who's joined me in using it has found it to be tremendously useful. In fact, some of those people are going to join me in my approaching 50 fitness goals and body composition goals. My birthday is September 26th, and so I'd like to invite you to join, if you would like to improve your body composition and fitness, to also use the Carbon app. Now, there are a lot of apps out there that are focused on fitness and nutrition. But what makes Carbon different is that it doesn't just hand you a one-size-fits-all plan. It actually learns your metabolism over time, and it adapts your program based on your results. It also allows you total flexibility in how you eat. If you're plant-based or you're keto, high carb, low carb, anything in between, or even if you switch back and forth between different diets, Carbon works around your preferences. The other thing I love about Carbon is that it easily adapts to whether you're the type of person who likes to put in the specific brand and the exact number of ounces or grams of food that you ate, or if you tend to be a little bit looser about that, like you ate half a handful of almonds or something like that. It can learn and adapt to that and still give you accurate recommendations. So if you're looking to take a smarter, more personalized approach to your nutrition, I can't recommend the Carbon app enough. To try Carbon, you can go to joincarbon.com/huberman. While Carbon does not typically offer trials or promotions, they've agreed to give a free seven-day trial to all Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's joincarbon.com/huberman to get a seven-day free trial. Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront. I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it. At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money. Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well. With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it. With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays. The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn. And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks. Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts. It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest. There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. Earn 4% APY on your cash today. If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account. That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now. This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront. Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode description.

6. 26:46 – 36:53

   Does Fasted Training Increase Body Fat Loss?, Cardio, Individual Flexibility

   1. AHAndrew Huberman26:46

      Let's talk about fasted training.

   2. AAAlan Aragon26:48

      Okay.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman26:49

      And whether or not it indeed burns more body fat.

   4. AAAlan Aragon26:53

      Mm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman26:54

      And here, let's expand the conversation to include cardiovascular training, and of course, that's a vast space. Could be long, slow distance, could be-

   6. AAAlan Aragon27:00

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman27:00

      ... high-intensity interval training.

   8. AAAlan Aragon27:02

      Sure.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman27:02

      Anything that gets your heart rate elevated-

   10. AAAlan Aragon27:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman27:03

       ... deliberately for 12, uh, for 12 minutes or more-

   12. AAAlan Aragon27:06

       Okay.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman27:06

       ... is kind of how I put it. Um, so let's be broad with what we're calling training.

   14. AAAlan Aragon27:12

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman27:12

       Could be resistance training, circuit training, whole body, body part split, whatever. Let's, let's take all that and let's define the fast as not having eaten either for four hours during the middle of the day or for eight hours or, to 12 hours, including sleep the night before, right?

   16. AAAlan Aragon27:33

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman27:33

       Because people then say, "Wait, but I'm fasted 'cause I don't eat lunch and then I tr-"

   18. AAAlan Aragon27:36

       Yeah.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman27:36

       Okay, it gets really murky and then w- and then we could spend 26 hours here and we don't want to do that. So assuming that one trains fasted-

   20. AAAlan Aragon27:44

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman27:45

       ... does one burn more body f- stored body fat in particular or just more dietary fat if there's dietary fat circulating and available? Let's just say lipids.

   22. AAAlan Aragon27:59

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman27:59

       I think th- we, when we hear the word "fat," people think body fat.

   24. AAAlan Aragon28:03

       Mm-hmm.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman28:03

       But there's also dietary fat. So could you please discriminate between those two?

   26. AAAlan Aragon28:07

       Yeah. Okay, so picture this. (laughs) Picture two people eating the exact same amount of... E-e-exact same diet, identical diet. By the end of the day, same macronutrition, same food selection, everything is identical. One person or one of the groups... Let's say we're running a study, okay? One of the groups trains in a genuinely post-absorptive fasted state, eight to 10 hours-ish, n- eating nothing. They will burn more fat during the training bout.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman28:47

       Body fat?

   28. AAAlan Aragon28:48

       Yes. (laughs) They will burn more body fat. They will burn more intramuscular fat. They will just... Their net fat oxidation will be higher than the group that has a, a breakfast. And the group that has the breakfast will essentially be, you know, burning their breakfast during the training. So yes, during the training, there is greater fat burning in the fasted group.But once again, we're looking at two groups who are consuming the exact same diet. So, the group who consumed their breakfast is going to consume (laughs) less stuff, less food, one less meal in the later part of the day. So, their fat oxidation is going to be higher in the later part of the day. And so, it all comes out even by the end of the day. So, that is the, kind of the big issue and the big-

   29. AHAndrew Huberman29:44

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AAAlan Aragon29:44

       ... principle with, with, uh, fasted training having ... Yes, uh, uh, m- it does burn more fat during training, but you're looking at a snapshot of time within the course of the day. You're not looking at the course of the day. But you know what? This was a, a huge idea that persisted throughout the, mm, late '80s and early '90s. Um, late ... And, you know, even into the 2000s when, uh, Bill Phillips came out with Body For Life and stuff. He was big on the fasted cardio and stuff. And so, um, these, this kind of lore is really cool, uh, if you know scientists who are able to rope you in and help y- help you, you know, investigate this stuff. So, uh, once again, you know, I gotta give Brad Schoenfeld a lot of credit. Uh, he wanted to test this hypothesis out. And so, um, we took college-aged subjects, uh, women, and we compared fasted cardio with fed cardio. And the predominant lore at the time was, uh, the fat burning zone, right? So n- uh, we're, we're talking low, moderate intensity cardio, which they carried out for, um, m- little less than an hour. And we compared immediate, an immediate pre- pre-cardio meal, which was a standardized, it was like a meal replacement type of thing, with, um, a br- uh, the same meal consumed post-cardio. And then we measured body composition over ... It, it w- people criticized the study for being four weeks, but look- (laughs)
7. 36:53 – 38:58

   Dietary Protein & Body Composition

   1. AHAndrew Huberman36:53

      Um, but along those lines, um, why is it, in your opinion, that protein is so critical? That y- you know, that protein be treated as, as like the, the cornerstone of good nutrition, especially if one is cons- a- attempting to consume calories to maintain or perhaps even lose a little bit of body fat. Maybe simultaneously m- maintaining or gaining muscle. But l- let's set aside muscle gain for the moment, and let's just say, like maintain muscle, but many people want to lose a few percentages of body fat.

   2. AAAlan Aragon37:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman37:30

      Why is it that protein is so critical i- to that process? Why is it that indeed calories in versus calories out reigns true, law of thermodynamics, but that protein is so crucial?

   4. AAAlan Aragon37:44

      It's mainly just a, a couple of things to keep in mind, and potentially a third little thing. So the, the big thing about protein and body comp is, number one, protein directly supports lean body mass. It directly supports all the lean tissues in the body. Uh, skeletal muscle, um, especially. And, um, skeletal muscle is our, basically our, our, our metabolic engine that we can control. Um, it manages our body's fuel use. And so, it's, it's super critical to support skeletal muscle. Protein does that directly. And protein is more satiating than carbohydrate and fat. And so, it's the most satiating macro-nutrient. Um, the third little, little detail, well, it's, it's got the highest, uh, cost of metabolism or cost of processing within the body. So, it's the most energetically or calorically expensive macro-nutrient to process within the body. So, it has a higher so-called thermic effect.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman38:45

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AAAlan Aragon38:46

      And so, those are basically the, the three main reasons why protein is so critical to things like body comp improvement, um, high-quality weight loss, fat loss. Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman38:57

      Those, those are great reasons.

8. 38:58 – 51:24

   Animal vs Plant Proteins (Whey, Soy, Pea, Quorn), Muscle Size & Strength

   1. AHAndrew Huberman38:58

   2. AAAlan Aragon38:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman38:58

      A- and what about the hierarchy of protein quality? I think of protein quality in terms of quality of protein, meaning the type and ratios of amino acids, the availability of those amino acids, relative to the amount of calories one has to ingest to get them. Because I, I, frankly, I've grown tired and slightly irritated at the-

   4. AAAlan Aragon39:20

      (laughs)

   5. AHAndrew Huberman39:20

      ... "Oh, you know, these plant-based foods have a ton of quality protein in them." And I go, "Really? You have to consume 2,000 calories of that plant or grain in order to get the equivalent amino acid profile, uh, from, you know, a four-ounce piece of steak, for instance."

   6. AAAlan Aragon39:38

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman39:38

      And, uh, this is not an argument that animal proteins are better ethically. I'm just saying at, at a quality, as a function of calories ingested, I feel like animal proteins are superior. But tell me, tell me what the data say.

   8. AAAlan Aragon39:54

      Sure, sure. Man, this is a lightning rod of a, of a topic here, this, uh, um, kind of-

   9. AHAndrew Huberman40:00

      We have a strong audience.

   10. AAAlan Aragon40:01

       (laughs)

   11. AHAndrew Huberman40:01

       They can handle it.

   12. AAAlan Aragon40:02

       They can handle it? All right, you guys.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman40:03

       They can handle it.

   14. AAAlan Aragon40:03

       Guys, buckle up and brace yourselves, please.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman40:06

       Yeah.

   16. AAAlan Aragon40:06

       So, gram for gram, as a group, animal proteins are higher quality, they're more anabolic. They have a higher proportion of essential amino acids. They have a higher amount and proportion of the anabolic-driving, the most anabolic-driving amino acids, the branched-chain amino acids, leucine specifically. And, uh, in, in the majority of the literature, when you compare animal versus plant proteins head-to-head, you see greater muscle protein synthesis. Um, now, with muscle protein synthesis being sort of the short-term indicator of what might indicate a growth trajectory over time, we have to see if we can corroborate that with these longitudinal trials where you drag the experiment out for weeks and months, to see if there's any superiority with the animal versus the plant protein for kind of where the rubber meets the road, which is increasing muscle mass and/or strength. So, there have been a lot of studies comparing animal versus plant proteins. And interestingly, uh ... Okay, so the animal proteins do have the edge in that department, and that's been reported in a couple meta-analyses now. Um-Uh, one of them compared whey and soy, and didn't find a, a staggering difference between the two anabolically, so we can call soy actually a, a, a high-quality protein. But when you look at the individual studies, they're, i- it, whey still has an edge in terms of... 'Cause meta-analyses just, like, take the data and cram it all together into a single conclusion.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman41:40

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AAAlan Aragon41:41

       And so, um, it's also important to look at the individual studies too. So, here's where the story gets interesting. There, there are two studies now that compared a... And this is what, what's been missing from the literature. Usually, we take two groups of omnivores, and we supplement them with, let's say, whey protein, and then we supplement the other group with, uh, some sort of a plant protein.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman42:07

       A pea protein or something like that.

   20. AAAlan Aragon42:08

       Yeah, a pea protein and interesting thing about it (laughs) . Pea protein, it actually outperformed whey in one study, so in this 2015 study, where, um, pea protein supplementation outperformed whey for increasing muscle thickness. It was really sad (laughs) . I was really sad to see that, 'cause I was weighing it up, and I was like, "Oh, God. Yeah. W- what, what are we doing here?"

   21. AHAndrew Huberman42:29

       Well, it is what it is.

   22. AAAlan Aragon42:29

       That study has not been replicated, but... Okay, so the interesting part. We finally have studies where we're looking at completely vegan regimen, uh, uh, a group who's totally vegan, no, no animal products at all in, in the diet, versus an omnivore group. And, uh, put them on a resistance training regimen, 12 weeks. This was, uh, done by Lorraine and colleagues, and this was, like, a few years back. And so, they optimized protein, or at least made it at the bottom of optimal, at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight per day, in both groups, okay? And so, but the unique thing about this study, it was the first time ever we're compar- comparing vegans with omnivores. So, there were no significant differences between groups in muscle size and strength gains by the end of 12 weeks, where they were put on a progressive resistance training program.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman43:22

       It was isocaloric? So, both groups-

   24. AAAlan Aragon43:24

       Isocaloric, mm-hmm.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman43:26

       Uh-huh. Meaning, uh, uh, for those that don't know what that means is, total number of calories ingested per day, same in the vegan versus omnivore group.

   26. AAAlan Aragon43:32

       Yes, that's right. Isocaloric, isomacronutritional, you know, isoproteic. E- e- everything, everything is equated between the groups, nu- macronutrition-wise. No significant differences in the size and strength gains. And, um, they're suspecting... Oh, and by the way, the vegan group, their protein intake was boosted up to 1.6 grams per kilo, or 0.7 grams per pound. It was boosted up by, uh, soy protein supplementation. So, apparently, I mean, we're beginning to see that at a dose, a total daily protein at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight, the totally vegan group was able to hang in there, uh, against the omnivore group for muscle size and strength gains, at least within the conditions of the study, and at least for those 12 weeks, and at least for the, the subjects that, that were used, who weren't necessarily, you know, these high-level athletes, or, or, you know.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman44:31

       So, you can, if you construct it properly, you can follow a vegan diet, as long as you get 0.7 grams-

   28. AAAlan Aragon44:37

       Grams per pound.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman44:39

       ... per pound of body weight.

   30. AAAlan Aragon44:39

       And, and the weird thing, man, is the vegan diet overall had significantly less essential amino acid content.
9. 51:24 – 54:14

   Sponsors: AG1 & David

   1. AAAlan Aragon51:24

   2. AHAndrew Huberman51:24

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance. I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it. AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost. In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade. This next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating. Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say, "AG1." If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.Today's episode is also brought to us by David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar. David protein bars also taste amazing. Even the texture is amazing. My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor. Basically, I like all the flavors a lot. They're all incredibly delicious. In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day. I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them. With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories. I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling. They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories. If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.

10. 54:14 – 1:02:55

    Body Re-Composition, Gain Muscle While Losing Fat?, Tool: Protein Intake & Exercise

    1. AHAndrew Huberman54:14

       I'd like to talk a little bit about body recomposition. Um, simple question to start off, is it possible to, quote-unquote, "gain muscle while at the same time losing fat?"

    2. AAAlan Aragon54:28

       Yes (laughs) .

    3. AHAndrew Huberman54:29

       Great, that will be reassuring to people.

    4. AAAlan Aragon54:31

       Yes.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman54:31

       Um, does it require a caloric deficit?

    6. AAAlan Aragon54:36

       This is the weird part, no. No. A- a- and, um, just super interesting, man, um, my- my friend and colleague, Chris Barakat, he collected all the studies that witnessed this recomposition phenomenon with it. Recomposition, we call it recomp, you know, a simultaneous gain in lean mass and loss in fat mass. So, he collected all the studies. He collected 10 studies, and this was a fi- th- this review was put out five years ago, so you can imagine there's probably a few more studies that have shown recomp now. So, we can say ab- at least a dozen studies have shown this phenomenon, which we didn't necessarily think was possible, uh, like 10 years ago. You know, we thought, "Okay, you need a caloric surplus to gain muscle, and oh, you need a caloric deficit to lose fat." But what happened in these studies is the recomposition phenomenon is, I think seven out of the 10 studies wa- was a lean mass gain dominant recomposition. So, in other words, more lean mass was gained than fat was lost, so there were net gains in body mass by the end of these- these trials, which would at least very strongly imply that fat was lost in a caloric surplus.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman55:51

       If you were going to suggest to somebody, uh, the best way to approach this-

    8. AAAlan Aragon55:56

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman55:56

       Um, let's say somebody, loosely speaking, uh, this is not a competitive athlete. This could be a man or a woman, assuming that the same advice would pertain to both, um, is willing to re- do resistance training three to four times per week, let's say three times per week.

    10. AAAlan Aragon56:12

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman56:12

        Do some cardio three times per week, um, for about an hour each session for- for those. Um, and they are willing to eat maintenance calories or slightly over, a- and their goal is to gain some muscle and lose some fat. Where would you set the calories relative to, uh, their needs? Would it be an extra two to 500 calories? I realize that's hard to say 'cause you-

    12. AAAlan Aragon56:39

        Sure.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman56:39

        ... we should talk in percentages.

    14. AAAlan Aragon56:40

        For sure.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman56:40

        But let's just- let's just keep it broad for sake of a broad audience.

    16. AAAlan Aragon56:43

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman56:44

        Um, how much more than maintenance should somebody ingest? And- and let's assume that when they go in the gym, they know what they're doing, they warm up for five, 10 minutes, and then they train hard. They take the sets close to failure.

    18. AAAlan Aragon56:55

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman56:55

        They're doing, you know, three to six sets per body part. They're- th- they're training mea- with meaningful effort.

    20. AAAlan Aragon57:01

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman57:01

        And when they do their cardio, they're somewhere between zone two and maybe they throw in a- a, you know, a max heart rate workout w- once a week. They do some s- some sprints in the middle of their zone two and go back to, you know. This, I think, is pretty typical of what a lot of people are willing to do or are currently doing.

    22. AAAlan Aragon57:15

        I would say sort of the simple and direct answer is to try to keep the caloric surplus pretty judicious. So, 10%-ish above maintenance conditions, which co- which could be for somewhere between, uh, 200, possibly 300 calories-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman57:33

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AAAlan Aragon57:34

        ... above what- what you see as maintenance. And the common thread amongst these recomposition studies was that protein was very high. Protein was somewhere between a gram to a gram and a half per pound of body weight.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman57:50

        Interesting. So, now we've upped the protein intake.

    26. AAAlan Aragon57:52

        Yes.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman57:52

        Could we even say that the caloric, uh, this, uh, 10% above maintenance should come from quality protein?

    28. AAAlan Aragon57:58

        E- exactly. Yes. Yes. And, um, there's a series of studies done by Joey Antoniot and colleagues where they fed the subjects four to 800 calories above and beyond their habitual intakes just in protein, and either recomposition happened or no significant change in body composition happened. The pro-

    29. AHAndrew Huberman58:22

        Were they training?

    30. AAAlan Aragon58:23

        They were training. They were resistance training. And so, what protein apparently does when you consume very high amounts of it up to, you know, a gram, a gram and a half per pound of body weight, is it just sort of spontaneously does some magical things. I- it'll drive down your intake of the other macros. It will potentially increase your exercise, uh, energy expenditure and/or your non-exercise energy expenditure. Um, it will do odd things. Like I- I talked to Joey Antoniot when he- he got some feedback from the subjects on his very high protein study where he subjected them to two grams per pound, uh...... for an eight-week period. And he had subjects come in to him saying, "Hey, I'm, I'm, like, sweating while I'm sleeping."
11. 1:02:55 – 1:10:36

    Fiber; Starchy Carbohydrates & Fat Loss, Ketogenic Diet

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:55

       Um, I, I want to make sure that we talk about some of the other macronutrients.

    2. AAAlan Aragon1:02:59

       Sure.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:00

       Um, because carbohydrates do exist.

    4. AAAlan Aragon1:03:04

       (laughs)

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:05

       Um, we won't talk about fiber just now. I think ... Can we actually put fiber, um, onto the shelf quickly by saying w- fiber's good, right?

    6. AAAlan Aragon1:03:14

       Yes.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:14

       Okay. Fiber's good.

    8. AAAlan Aragon1:03:15

       (laughs)

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:15

       Get fiber.

    10. AAAlan Aragon1:03:16

        The short answer, the short answer is it, is it's good.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:19

        Get fiber.

    12. AAAlan Aragon1:03:20

        (laughs)

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:20

        Um, and get it through fruits and vegetables, and if you, if you're not doing that, get it through some supplement, but ideally through fruits and vegetables, right?

    14. AAAlan Aragon1:03:30

        Fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains. Grains are a double-edged sword.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:35

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AAAlan Aragon1:03:35

        You know?

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:36

        Right, 'ca- because they're high calorie.

    18. AAAlan Aragon1:03:37

        You got the, you know, you got the refined grains, the flour foods-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:40

        Yeah.

    20. AAAlan Aragon1:03:40

        ... and then you have the whole grains, but even some of the whole grains, you, there's such thing as whole grain, uh, Goldfish crackers, so, you know, a bit of a treacherous little area there for people who are trying to economize on the, the junk and the calories-

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:52

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AAAlan Aragon1:03:52

        ... that they consume. You could still have a whole grain diet that has just a bunch of crap.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:56

        Right. So fruits, vegetables, get, but get your fiber. Five-

    24. AAAlan Aragon1:04:00

        Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:00

        Fiber's key.

    26. AAAlan Aragon1:04:01

        Get fiber.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:01

        But when we talk about carbohydrates, let's divide them crudely-

    28. AAAlan Aragon1:04:04

        Sure.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:04

        ... into starchy carbohydrates, so stuff that-

    30. AAAlan Aragon1:04:08

        Mm-hmm.
12. 1:10:36 – 1:16:52

    Inflammation, Fat & Macronutrients, Hyper-Palatability; Fish Oil Supplementation

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:36

       as long as we're in this category of discussion-

    2. AAAlan Aragon1:10:38

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:39

       ... um... what are your thoughts about inflammation? And- and here's why I ask...

    4. AAAlan Aragon1:10:45

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:45

       ... and I ask it this way-

    6. AAAlan Aragon1:10:46

       All right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:46

       ... is I know many, many people who've struggled with their weight for a very long time.

    8. AAAlan Aragon1:10:51

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:52

       Uh, a lot of male friends, some female friends who when they adopt a- a diet of the following things, meat, fish, eggs, Parmesan cheese as the only category of dairy-

    10. AAAlan Aragon1:11:04

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:04

        ... or so hard cheese, fruit and vegetables, olive oil, butter, coffee, tea fine but no sodas or anything except diet sodas, they lose significant amounts of body fat-

    12. AAAlan Aragon1:11:18

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:18

        ... probably some water too.... so they're not eating any starches, no rice, no oatmeal, no bread, no pizza, nothing. But they ha- have all managed, this is anecdote, but they've all managed to lose anywhere from 25 to 50 or even 60 pounds. They're exercising typically-

    14. AAAlan Aragon1:11:35

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:36

        ... sometimes just cardio. So significant amounts of, of body weight, and they keep it off. And a number of their health challenges seem to resolve themselves perhaps secondarily to the weight loss. But I often wonder whether or not this, quote unquote, what some people call a low inflammation diet-

    16. AAAlan Aragon1:11:56

        (laughs)

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:56

        ... because there's so few processed and highly processed foods in this regimen, has additional benefits that start to synergize with the, the fat loss. And, you know, it's remarkable how, how much better they look, how much better they feel, and they can maintain that pretty well 'cause you can say, "You know, I'll pass on the, on the bread and the, and the pie, but, you know, I'm going to have a double serving of turkey and Brussels sprouts." And I, you know, it's kind of remarkable what can be accomplished with what I just described, and yet I don't know a name for that diet.

    18. AAAlan Aragon1:12:25

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:25

        And it's not my-

    20. AAAlan Aragon1:12:26

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:26

        ... it's not what I follow. I eat starches. But, um, what are your thoughts on inflammation and how certain macronutrient profiles perhaps are pro-inflammatory or anti-inflammatory, or something people rarely talk about, which is inflammatory neutral, kind of keep you in a neither high nor low inflammation state-

    22. AAAlan Aragon1:12:45

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:45

        ... but just kind of a normal fluctuations in inflammation? Long question, but I feel like it's one I've wanted to ask for a while, and you're the guy to ask.

    24. AAAlan Aragon1:12:52

        Okay, so I'm, I'm going to speculate a little bit. Uh, I think that any diet that facilitates substantial fat loss is going to lower the amount of inflammatory cytokines circulating and emanating from the adipose tissue. And so if you can get that body fat down, then you can get chronic low-grade inflammation down. Uh, if that body fat is reduced from everywhere, the subcutaneous space especially, the visceral space, then you're going to do a lot of good things for long-term health. Um, the reason why the diet that you described is so effective at this is because it lacks hyper-palatability, and so the way that you create hyper-palatability... Hyper-palatability is basically the tendency for food to be very flavorful, very delicious, and very easy to passively overconsume. And so the formula for hyper-palatability is basically refined carbs, fat, mixed together, salt it, mm, and/or make it sweet. And there's your formula for food that is easily passively overconsumed. And the diet that you described doesn't have these ultra-processed, highly engineered fat-carb co- refined carb-and-fat combo foods that we are just kind of driven to just inhale down.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:30

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AAAlan Aragon1:14:31

        Um, and so I- I- I think that my view could possibly il- be a little bit too simplistic, but I think the inflammation issue is really tied to, uh, uh, an excess body fat issue.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:42

        Mm-hmm. I'm very grateful for that answer, and, and, um, again, I've seen so many friends now lose significant amounts of body fat and stick with this diet. It's also one that if one were to have a slice of cake or a piece of pizza, you're not really deviating that far from the, from the total contour of the nutritional plan. It's not like you're suddenly out of keto or something.

    28. AAAlan Aragon1:15:06

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:06

        Um, and they don't tend to cascade into binges and things of that sort.

    30. AAAlan Aragon1:15:09

        Mm-hmm.
13. 1:16:52 – 1:24:03

    Added Dietary Sugars, Sugar Cravings, Tool: Protein Intake

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:52

       I'd like to, um, I'd like to talk about sugar.

    2. AAAlan Aragon1:16:56

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:57

       I've had people on this podcast, um, sit where you're sitting and basically paint a picture of sugar that it is not quite as bad as crack cocaine and meth, but not too far from that.

    4. AAAlan Aragon1:17:09

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:10

       Kind of exaggerating. And I've had, um, people who land in the more, um, kind of tempered response to sugar, but let's define sugar.

    6. AAAlan Aragon1:17:19

       Sure.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:19

       Um...We're not talking... When I say sugar, I'm not talking about fructose in fruit, because in fruit you've got, uh, fructose, but you've got fiber and there's a high water content. And some... Sure, some fruits have higher fructose content than others. Mangoes versus apples, for instance, or something of that sort. But when I'm talking about sugar, I'm talking about if one looks at a package or a label and sees added sugars, how bad are added sugars? Because those are really the ones that tend to-

    8. AAAlan Aragon1:17:52

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:53

       ... you know, fall into this bin of, quote-unquote, "bad sugar" in a lot of people's minds.

    10. AAAlan Aragon1:17:58

        Okay. So, they, they, they dilute the, uh, the nutritive value of the diet, and they contribute to hyper-palatability. If you're talking about extrinsic sugars added to, to the diet, you know, they, there... only... Really only two sources of intrinsic, um, sugars are in fruit and in, in milk. Um, everything else, you're, you're pretty much adding it, with the exception of, like, maybe agave, but that's kind of a, a, a rare esoteric thing. But added sugars to the diet should be consumed judiciously. Uh, the working, um, recommendation is to try to limit added sugars to the diet to 10% of total calories. So, if you're somebody who likes to put maple syrup on whatever you might do, or somebody who likes to put honey on whatever you might do, then you may want to limit that to... Typical, let's say 2,000-calorie diet, you might want to limit it to, like, a maximum of 40, 50 grams a day.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:04

        It still seems high.

    12. AAAlan Aragon1:19:05

        It does. (laughs)

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:06

        40, 50 grams?

    14. AAAlan Aragon1:19:08

        If, if that-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:08

        Who's eating that much sugar?

    16. AAAlan Aragon1:19:09

        If that... Me. (laughs)

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:11

        Oh, really? You have a sweet tooth?

    18. AAAlan Aragon1:19:12

        No, no, I love honey and I, and I love maple syrup.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:15

        Ah. See, I have a savory tooth.

    20. AAAlan Aragon1:19:17

        (laughs)

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:17

        Like, if I... I have to try and not eat the entire block of Parmesan cheese.

    22. AAAlan Aragon1:19:22

        I have both, man. I've, I've- (laughs)

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:24

        (laughs)

    24. AAAlan Aragon1:19:25

        I, I always joke that, that I have a inner fat boy within me, but I actually have been technically obese by BMI standards, like, uh, 10 years-ish back.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:34

        You're, uh, how old now?

    26. AAAlan Aragon1:19:36

        53.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:37

        Great. Well, you-

    28. AAAlan Aragon1:19:37

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:19:37

        ... seem to be in great shape. No hormone augmentation. We clarified that earlier. I asked.

    30. AAAlan Aragon1:19:42

        (laughs)
14. 1:24:03 – 1:30:16

    Artificial Sweeteners (Aspartame, Sucralose, Saccharine, Stevia), Diet Soda, Weight Loss

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:03

       you mentioned artificial sweeteners.

    2. AAAlan Aragon1:24:04

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:04

       So let- let's, uh, let's double-click there.

    4. AAAlan Aragon1:24:07

       Sure.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:08

       I've seen some literature that points to the possibility that they might be, quote, "bad for the gut microbiome." Those are animal data. There are some human data.

    6. AAAlan Aragon1:24:16

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:17

       But I think nowadays saying artificial sweeteners is too broad.

    8. AAAlan Aragon1:24:21

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:21

       As we say in science, there are lumpers and splitters, and I think we need to split that because there's low-calorie sweeteners like stevia, right, um, that are not artificial. They're-

    10. AAAlan Aragon1:24:31

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:31

        ... sort of technically plant-derived. And then there's artificial sweeteners like aspartame, sucralose, saccharin.

    12. AAAlan Aragon1:24:37

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:37

        And my understanding is that sucralose and saccharin have some bad properties if consumed in excess. What is the deal with artificial sweeteners? So we're talking aspartame-

    14. AAAlan Aragon1:24:48

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:48

        ... sucralose, saccharin. Let's just focus on those.

    16. AAAlan Aragon1:24:51

        Sure.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:51

        And let's leave aside monk fruit, stevia, et cetera, for the time being.

    18. AAAlan Aragon1:24:56

        Okay. Y- you can pretty much simplify it by saying out of all the sweeteners that we study, whether they're the natural kind or whether they're the artificial kind, it's saccharin that is showing a lot of the adverse potential. So, for example, the negative effects on gut microbiome that have led to impaired glucose tolerance, uh, in humans over a short period of time. Of course, they... You know, the dose is debatable that they're flooding these humans with. But nevertheless, it's saccharin that showed these effects, um, with even body weight gain, comparing saccharin, sucralose, and I believe it could have been one of the others, aspartame, the saccharin group apparently maybe appetite was dysregulated, uh, actually gained weight. And so there is something about saccharin that is not great as far as the range of, uh, low-calorie sweeteners go. But thankfully, saccharin is almost commercially extinct. It's hard to find saccharin unless you go to a Denny's or some sort of greasy spoon place and you get those pink, little pink packets. So, um, now we've got this other range of low-calorie sweeteners to choose from, and it's a little bit of a mystery of which of these low-calorie sweeteners has the best health and, um, body comp proposition to it. But they're all pretty much in, in the same boat. You can find a bunch of good stuff with stevia. Like, the dirt on artificial sweeteners, you can find a bunch of potential dirt on aspartame. You can find a potential, uh, a bunch of potential dirt on sucralose. Um, stevia, it's a little bit harder to.

Episode duration: 2:34:08