Intermittent Fasting to Improve Health, Cognition & Longevity | Dr. Satchin Panda

1. 0:00 – 3:02

   Dr. Satchin Panda

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      (instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today my guest is Dr. Satchin Panda. Dr. Satchin Panda is a professor and director of the Regulatory Biology Laboratory at the Salk Institute of Biological Studies. His laboratory has made numerous important contributions that impact mental health, physical health, and human performance. For instance, his laboratory discovered the neurons in the eye and neurons within the brain that regulate our so-called circadian rhythms. Circadian rhythms are 24-hour rhythms in everything from gene expression to the overall functioning of tissues, our levels of mood and alertness, our ability to sleep, appetite, and much, much more. In addition, over the last decade, Dr. Panda's laboratory has made critical discoveries in terms of how our patterns of eating over time impact our biology and our health. In particular, his laboratory pioneered discoveries related to so-called intermittent fasting, also sometimes referred to as time-restricted feeding. Today, Dr. Panda and I discuss how our circadian behaviors, everything from when we wake up, to when we view light, to when we avoid viewing light, to when we eat and what we eat, and when we socialize and how we socialize impacts our biology and our psychology and how all of that has a strong impact on our health. During today's discussion, you will learn how restricting your feeding to specific periods within each 24-hour cycle, or perhaps even exploring longer patterns of fasting and eating cycles can impact everything from the health of your liver, to your gut, to your brain, and how all of that impacts things like mood and your ability to perform cognitive work. Indeed, today's discussion goes deep into all aspects of intermittent fasting, A.K.A. time-restricted feeding. We talk about the basic science, as well as the recent clinical trials that have explored time-restricted feeding in a diverse range of people, including men, women, children, people with diabetes, people who are otherwise healthy, and much, much more. I'm quite aware that intermittent fasting is a topic of much debate these days. We go deep into that debate, and by the end of today's discussion, you can be certain that you will have learned all the latest and all the details, all made very clear to you thanks to the incredible expertise, discovery, and clear communication of Dr. Panda. As some of you may already know, Dr. Panda has authored several important books on the topic of intermittent fasting and how it can benefit various aspects of health. Those books include The Circadian Code, and a more recent book, The Circadian Diabetes Code, both of which we provided links to in the show note captions. In addition, if any of you are interested in learning more about Dr. Panda's work, including seeing his publications and reading those publications, or supporting his laboratory, you can do that by going to his laboratory website, which we have also linked in the show note captions.

2. 3:02 – 7:24

   Sponsors: HVMN, Eight Sleep, Thesis, Momentous

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:02

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is HVMN Ketone IQ. HVMN Ketone IQ is a supplement that increases blood ketones. I want to be clear that I am not following a ketogenic diet. Most people fall into this category. They are not following a ketogenic diet. They are omnivores, and they do eat carbohydrates. So their standard fuel source for the brain and body is not ketones. However, I found that by taking Ketone IQ, which we know increases blood ketones, I can achieve much better focus for longer periods of time, for any kind of cognitive work, and much greater energy levels for exercise, especially if I'm going into that exercise fasted and find myself a little bit hungry when I start that exercise. And this is no surprise. We know that ketones are the brain's and body's preferred fuel source, even if you're not following a ketogenic diet. So, in other words, I and many other people are now starting to leverage endogenous ketones as a fuel source for the brain and body, and yet we are not following a ketogenic diet. And, of course, if you are fol- following a ketogenic diet, Ketone IQ will further allow you to increase your blood ketones as a source of brain and body fuel. If you'd like to try Ketone IQ, you can go to hvmn.com/huberman to save 20% off your order. Again, that's hvmn.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. As I've talked about before on the Huberman Lab Podcast, there is a critical relationship between sleep and body temperature. That is, in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature needs to drop by about one to three degrees, and in order to wake up in the morning and feel alert, your body temperature needs to increase by about one to three degrees. The problem with most people's sleeping environment is that even if you make the room cool, the actual environment that you sleep on, that is your mattress and underneath your covers, is hard to regulate in terms of temperature. With Eight Sleep, regulating the temperature of that sleeping environment becomes incredibly easy. In fact, you can change the temperature of that environment across the night, making it a little bit cool at the beginning of the night, even cooler still a few hours into your sleep, which really helps getting into very deep sleep, and then warming it as you approach morning so that you wake up feeling most alert. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for over a year now, and it has completely transformed my sleep. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $150 off their Pod 3 cover. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Thesis. Thesis makes custom nootropics. Now, I am not a fan of the word "nootropics" because it translates to "smart drugs," and as a neuroscientist, what I can tell you is that you have circuits in your brain that allow you to focus. You have circuits in your brain that allow you to be creative. You have circuits in your brain that allow you to task switch, and on and on. In other words, there is no specific brain circuit or even circuits for being, quote-unquote, "smart." Thesis understands this and has developed nootropics that are customized to different types of mental operations. What do I mean by that? Well, they have formulas that can put your brain into a state of increased clarity, or focus, or creativity, or that can give you more overall energy for things like physical exercise. I often take the Thesis Clarity formula prior to long bouts of cognitive work, and I'll use their Energy formula prior to doing any kind of really intense physical exercise. If you'd like to try your own personalized nootropic starter ki- go online to takethesis.com/huberman. You'll take a brief three-minute quiz, and Thesis will send you four different formulas to try in your first month. Again, that's takethesis.com/huberman, and if you use the code "Huberman" at checkout, you'll get 10% off your order.The Huberman Lab podcast is now partnered with Momentous Supplements. To find the supplements we discuss on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, livemomentous.com/huberman. And I should just mention that the library of those supplements is constantly expanding. Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman. And now for my discussion

3. 7:24 – 14:38

   Time-Restricted Eating (TRE), Calorie Restriction (CR) & Health

   1. AHAndrew Huberman7:24

      with Dr. Satchin Panda. Satchin, Dr. Panda, so good to see you again.

   2. SPSatchin Panda7:28

      Yeah, great to see you.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman7:29

      We are colleagues still, but we used to be right across the street from one another-

   4. SPSatchin Panda7:33

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman7:34

      ... in San Diego.

   6. SPSatchin Panda7:34

      I remember those days, yeah. (laughs)

   7. AHAndrew Huberman7:35

      Yeah, so I'm delighted that you're here. Um, I think we're going to talk about a number of things, mainly intermittent fasting, time-restricted feeding, and health, but also the many other things that you're doing. Just before we started recording, uh, we were, uh, discussing your recent paper in Nature, uh, that involved recordings from post-mortem human retina. So maybe if there's time at the end, we can get back to, uh, your lab has shown that it can, uh, essentially maintain or resurrect neurons from, uh, dead people in order to potentially and eventually provide transplants to rescue vision-

   8. SPSatchin Panda8:10

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman8:10

      ... in the blind. So that's extremely exciting, but of course, not the main focus of today's discussion-

   10. SPSatchin Panda8:15

       (laughs)

   11. AHAndrew Huberman8:15

       ... so I'll have to, uh, split it up. Um, the first question I have is, how am I supposed to define fasting and time-restricted feeding? In meaning when I go to sleep every night, I'm not eating.

   12. SPSatchin Panda8:28

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman8:28

       So in some sense, everybody is doing time-restricted feeding to some degree or another.

   14. SPSatchin Panda8:33

       Yeah.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman8:34

       At what point can we start thinking about a pattern of eating as time-restricted feeding, so-called intermittent fasting? Does it have to do with how regular one is about the start and stop times? Um, how do you think about defining intermittent fasting, time-restricted feeding? And maybe just to simplify the conversation, is one term more correct than the other in terms of describing this incredible pattern of f- feeding?

   16. SPSatchin Panda9:00

       Well, you know that intermittent fasting covers many types of fasting. Um, actually, it started long time ago, uh, and it's embedded into the history of caloric restriction. Um, almost 100 years ago, people showed that if you reduce calorie intake in a rat, then that rat can live for a long time. And in those experiments, the calories were reduced every single day, and that led to the idea that if we cut down our calories by 20%, say, then we can potentially live longer by doing two things. One is preventing age-related disease, or even if we fall as- uh, fall sick, maybe we can accelerate cure and keep the repair mechanism going so that we can live longer. But it was very difficult to, um, count calories every day and reduce, maintain that. Um, I must say that it's not that caloric restriction is impossible or we are not doing it. In fact, lot of us, we do, um, count calories in our subconscious mind. Means every time you took out a- you take out- we take out a soda bottle or something, I'm looking at it, "Okay, 160 kilocalorie, 30 kilocalorie, zero kilocalorie." We are doing that. So the point is, it's- it's- we are doing subconsciously some kind of calorie, uh, counting, but reducing calorie by 20, 30% every single day is not possible for many people. So then the idea came in mouse and rat experiment whether they can eat every other day. Um, and in fact, this every other day feeding, uh, also led to very similar, almost equivalent health improvement as, um, continuous calorie restriction.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman10:54

       Mm.

   18. SPSatchin Panda10:55

       Um, so then the idea was, well, every other day is little bit hard for humans, but just imagine I would just get to eat, uh, only one day and then another day. Then the idea came, well, for humans, can they eat less for one or two days in a week? Um, so that led to this 5:2 diet where people can eat for five days, and then two days they have to reduce calories. So that's also intermittently people are fasting. Um, then as you know, Valter Longo also came up with this idea that periodic fasting, maybe four or five days in every month or two months, three months you can fast or reduce calorie, and he also found many benefits of calorie restriction was there.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman11:40

       Were those studies on humans?

   20. SPSatchin Panda11:42

       Many of the studies started it in mice, but, uh, alternate-day fasting, 5:2, and Valter's periodic fast- fasting, all of them have now been done in humans. Not for longevity, of course, because cannot do those for a long time. Um, but for weight maintenance, for reducing some signs of aging or reversing, those things have been done. So all of them, uh, have been done in humans, mostly healthy humans, uh, and in some cases, people with, uh, pre-diabetes or some aspects of metabolic disease. So that led to the idea that- that all these forms of fasting in which the total caloric intake on any given day is reduced for one or more days in a week, a month, that became- that umbrella term became intermittent fasting. So if you look up the scientific literature, most intermittent fasting involves intentionally reducing calories for at least one or two days in a week or, um, few days in a month. So when we, uh, published time-restricted feeding, um, the initial mouse experiments, and even now most of the mouse experiments, we want to test what is the impact of time restriction versus calorie restriction.So in these experiments, we don't reduce calorie on any day of mouse life. So the mice eat the same number of calories as the ad libitum-fed mice, uh, but still they see health benefit. So that's why we call it time-restricted feeding. But since it involves living without food for several hours, for some people which is, um, it can be very difficult, uh, the initial experiments was done, uh, they were done for eight hours of feeding and 16 hours of fasting, that kind of became popular and, uh, so tha- that's why people use the same term as intermittent fasting. And now if you, uh, say intermittent fasting in popular literature or popular media, then people usually refer to time-restricted eating.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman13:54

       Got it.

   22. SPSatchin Panda13:54

       So now coming back to how do you define time-restricted feeding? Um, so the way, uh, we have been trying to define experimentally and also in, uh, literature is, um, trying to confine all your energy intake from solid and liquid food combined within a consistent window of eight to 12 hours, because that's something that doable. Of course, people have done time-restricted feeding with four hours, six hours, and some people even try to eat everything within two hours, one meal a day, um, but the point is those are n- not feasible to maintain for very long time for a lot of people.

4. 14:38 – 21:34

   Mealtimes & Circadian Clock

   1. SPSatchin Panda14:38

   2. AHAndrew Huberman14:39

      One question about the 6-hour versus 8-hour versus 12-hour feeding window-

   3. SPSatchin Panda14:43

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman14:45

      ... is it important that the feeding window begin and end at the same time-

   5. SPSatchin Panda14:51

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman14:51

      ... more or less?

   7. SPSatchin Panda14:52

      Yeah, more or less.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman14:52

      Um, and if so, how much flexibility is there? So for instance, I'm somebody that I am not terribly hungry in the morning, I like to drink water-

   9. SPSatchin Panda15:01

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman15:02

       ... usually some caffeine and electrolytes-

   11. SPSatchin Panda15:04

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman15:04

       ... in the period before my first meal.

   13. SPSatchin Panda15:06

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman15:06

       And my first meal always lands sometime between 11:00 and, 11:00 AM and 12:00 noon.

   15. SPSatchin Panda15:12

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman15:12

       There are exceptions.

   17. SPSatchin Panda15:13

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman15:14

       Occasionally I'll have a breakfast, a proper breakfast as it's called. Uh, I guess-

   19. SPSatchin Panda15:18

       (laughs)

   20. AHAndrew Huberman15:18

       ... it would be improper if you're intermittent fasting for me. Um, but typically 11:00 AM or noon is when I first eat and my last bite of food is typically around, I don't know, 8:00-

   21. SPSatchin Panda15:28

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman15:28

       ... 8:30, 9:00 PM.

   23. SPSatchin Panda15:29

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman15:29

       That's what works for me.

   25. SPSatchin Panda15:31

       Yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman15:32

       Is that consistency affording me any benefit sep- and let's just leave aside total caloric number, macronutrients-

   27. SPSatchin Panda15:38

       Yeah.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman15:38

       ... plant-based meat, et cetera. But is there any benefit to shortening that feeding window that we are aware of or extending that feeding window o- or being even more rigid about the start and end of that feeding window?

   29. SPSatchin Panda15:54

       Yeah, so the start of the feeding window, um, that's interesting because it, uh, the concept of time-restricted feeding when I describe animal studies, it's feeding, for humans it's eating. Uh, so the concept actually came from (laughs) the science of circadian rhythm. So that means, um, um, our body has an internal timetable, um, that's present in every cell, in every organ, um, that pre-programs, um, many molecular aspects of the cells that leads to physiology and all that stuff. So that essentially, uh, there is a predetermined timetable for every cell, every organ to do certain things at certain time and the circadian clocks, as you and I know, are more sensitive to light. Light is the most dominant, um, time giver. Uh, so for example, when daylight saving time changes or when we travel from one time zone to another time zone, we feel kind of crappy because our daily activities are out of sync from our internal clock. So that was known for a very long time but then around the year 2000, 2002, um, there was a famous experiment by Uli Sibler from, um, Switzerland. What, uh, he did, he just fed the mice at the wrong time, mice are knocked on all their night feeders and when he fed the, uh, mice during daytime, the liver clock, instead of following its own routine, liver clock actually started following food. So that means by changing our feeding time, we can change, we can tune our liver clock. And subsequently the same experiment has been repeated many times and even we repeated that in 2009 and we figured out, yes, actually outside this brain center called suprachiasmatic nucleus or SCN, which is considered the master circadian clock, almost rest of the brain even follows when we eat. And that came out from Pierre Chambon's lab in Europe, uh, where they systematically looked at even, um, places that are very close to the SCN, um, for those who are, who know dorso-medial hypothalamus or para-ventricular nucleus, all of this within couple of, uh, four or five millimeters of the SCN but they were following food cue.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman18:35

       Amazing.
5. 21:34 – 25:28

   Circadian Rhythm, Meal Anticipation, Digestion

   1. SPSatchin Panda21:34

   2. AHAndrew Huberman21:34

      Is there evidence that those anticipatory systems in, um, as they relate to digestion help us better assimilate our food? I would imagine so. I mean, if you have the gastric juices that are going to help digest the proteins, fats, and carbohydrates and, uh, already deployed at the time when you eat, I could imagine that food will be better utilized than if you don't. Um, so in other words, w- what is the advantage of having these anticipatory signals, um, in terms of potential health benefits?

   3. SPSatchin Panda22:02

      The anticipatory s- signal is really important from even, even from waking up. Um, the reason why many people feel not ready completely when they wake up to an alarm clock, because the alarm clock wakes you up, but your body is not prepared. So that sleepiness after waking up to an alarm clock is due to our body is not prepared for that. And then the best example is when th- uh, when, um, uh, the daylight saving time changes, particularly when we have to wake up one hour early. Uh, what happens, people who have underlying heart condition, um, when they're waking up, when the body is not ready or heart is not ready and all of a sudden the heart has to start pumping a little bit harder, then there is chance of heart attack. And in fact, uh, people have looked at hospital records and they find that on those days, uh, there is a sharp rise in heart attacks, so-

   4. AHAndrew Huberman23:03

      And car accidents, right?

   5. SPSatchin Panda23:04

      And car accidents too, because your brain is not coordinated, so you cannot, uh, make those fine decisions. So that's a great example of anticipatory activity. But coming back to digestion, one thing is, um, and this is something that many people might have experienced, there are many rhythms in our digestive system, and one of the rhythms is our lo- our intestine has this peristaltic function, so it kind of contracts and expands and that moves food mo- food doesn't move due to gravity (laughs) so it goes back and forth. And that peristaltic action actually slows down at night, uh, few hours after our last meal. And, um, so that's why when people eat late at night, for example, uh, then that food doesn't get digested because there is not enough digestive juice, first thing. And second, even if it gets digested in the stomach, it doesn't move properly, so then the next morning people get up and think, um, of course, uh, people consume some alcohol very often and then they think that this is hangover, but those who don't, uh, consume alcohol, then they have the food hangover because it doesn't digest. So that's one extreme example where food at the wrong time can, um... So healthy food at the wrong time can be crap or junk.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman24:29

      Yeah, I've, um, experienced that where if I've worked late or I couldn't eat dinner or something and then I get home, I always debate whether or not to try and sleep.

   7. SPSatchin Panda24:37

      Yeah.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman24:37

      But if I'm too hungry, oftentimes it's challenging, and so for me, sometimes consuming something that at least seems easily digestible like yogurt or something in a liquid form, um, is better for me than if I eat a meal.

   9. SPSatchin Panda24:51

      Yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman24:51

       I've made the mistake of going to the refrigerator, being super hungry, and eating a bunch of food at 10:00 or 11:00 PM and then falling asleep. And indeed the sleep, if I'm tired enough, can be quite deep.

   11. SPSatchin Panda25:02

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman25:02

       But the next morning I feel just completely physically and, and cognitively weighed down.

   13. SPSatchin Panda25:07

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman25:07

       So I think what you just described makes a lot of sense.

   15. SPSatchin Panda25:10

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman25:10

       So is it... So if someone were to select a, a feeding window-

   17. SPSatchin Panda25:13

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman25:13

       ... regardless of whether or not it...... falls-

   19. SPSatchin Panda25:16

       Yeah.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman25:16

       ... into classic intermittent fasting, time-restricted feeding.

   21. SPSatchin Panda25:18

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman25:18

       Sounds like s- eating your first bite of food and eating your last bite of food at more or less the same time each day-

   23. SPSatchin Panda25:25

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman25:25

       ... has benefits.

6. 25:28 – 32:49

   Breaking a Fast, Burning Fat

   1. AHAndrew Huberman25:28

      I have this question, you mentioned feeding versus eating.

   2. SPSatchin Panda25:31

      (laughs)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman25:31

      And I think it's actually not just a, uh, grammatical, uh, s- semantic issue. Um, and here's why. We tend to think about when you take your first bite of food and then when you take your last bite of food. But, of course, foods digest at different rates.

   4. SPSatchin Panda25:47

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman25:47

      More fat in there is gonna digest, make carbohydrates digest slower, et cetera. I mean, there's all these adjustments to the glycemic index-

   6. SPSatchin Panda25:54

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman25:54

      ... and so forth with foods in combination. I, is it better to think about not eating, but h- your fed state and blood sugar? So for instance, I often get asked on social media, "Does blank break a fast?"

   8. SPSatchin Panda26:09

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman26:10

      So, uh, and so I like to think about it scientifically, like, okay, is, does plain water break a fast? No. Does air break a fast? No.

   10. SPSatchin Panda26:18

       (laughs)

   11. AHAndrew Huberman26:18

       Um, does one grain of sugar, of sucrose break a fast? Well, probably not, but does one teaspoon of sugar break a fast? Well, you could say yes, but transiently.

   12. SPSatchin Panda26:28

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman26:28

       Like so, I mean when we're talking about breaking a fast, are we talking about a rise in blood glucose or are there molecular signals downstream of, of a rise in blood glucose that, um, cannot be reversed? In other words, if I'm going to eat my first meal every day at noon, and I'm going to eat my last, uh, bite of food at 8:00 PM and at 9:00 AM for whatever reason, I have coffee with one teaspoon of sugar in it, I suppose in the strictest sense, I've broken my fast.

   14. SPSatchin Panda26:57

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman26:58

       But maybe by n- if I went for a hard run that morning, maybe by 9:30 AM I'm back in a quote unquote "fasted state." So what is the fasted state really? Because when I'm eating-

   16. SPSatchin Panda27:07

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman27:07

       ... at 8:00 PM just to give another example, I'm start fasting at 8:01.

   18. SPSatchin Panda27:12

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman27:12

       Perhaps.

   20. SPSatchin Panda27:13

       Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman27:14

       But I have my blood glucose is elevated, so I'm not really fasted.

   22. SPSatchin Panda27:17

       No, no, no.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman27:17

       I'm fed.

   24. SPSatchin Panda27:18

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman27:18

       It's just that I'm not eating, the verb, right? Okay. So, um-

   26. SPSatchin Panda27:22

       (laughs)

   27. AHAndrew Huberman27:22

       ... so, uh, again, I, I don't want to get overly detailed just for sake of getting detail, but I think a lot of the confusion out there about what breaks a fast-

   28. SPSatchin Panda27:29

       Yeah.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman27:30

       ... is related specifically to this issue.

   30. SPSatchin Panda27:32

       Yeah.
7. 32:49 – 34:04

   Sponsor: AG1 (Athletic Greens)

   1. SPSatchin Panda32:49

   2. AHAndrew Huberman32:49

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health. Our gut is very important. It's populated by, uh, gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health. And those probiotics in Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health. In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met and it tastes great. If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, et cetera, and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

8. 34:04 – 47:20

   CR, Time Restricted Eating, Circadian Rhythm & Longevity

   1. SPSatchin Panda34:05

      So there is a famous experiment that was published last year by Joe Takahashi's lab, and it came out in Science, and that relates to caloric restriction. And we kind of started with this idea, um, we started discussing that the rat experiments were done with caloric restriction, and researchers gave reduced calorie consumption by 20% or 30% and gave that food. The rats, and then subsequently mice, and they all lived longer. What is interesting is, um, in all those experiments, um, the researchers came and gave this bolus of food at one time, whereas the ad libitum-fed mice or rats, they had access to food all the time, so they were eating all the time, and then these rats, uh, were given 20% less. And what happens is, these mice or rats, they're not going to take that less food, which is lesser now, and just eat a little bit of, uh, lunch, and then snack after three hours, or snack after three hours. They gobble up all that food. Within two to three hours, maximum four hours, food is gone.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman35:15

      So they're sort of on the OMAD diet, the one meal a day.

   3. SPSatchin Panda35:18

      Yeah. They're almost like in, uh, one meal a day, three to four hours, food is gone. Or you can say they're on four hours eating or feeding and 20 hours fasting. Um, so then the question became, well, the benefit of caloric restriction as we know, is it due to reduced calorie or time-restricted feeding or timing? There is a timing component to it, that they're eating all of that within three to four hours, and then there is a long fasting. And this is a difficult question to answer because now you have to ask these poor grad students or technicians to come and split that food into 8 or 10 or 15 different, uh, small portions and then give them to mice in every two hours. Um, so Joe Takahashi, who actually published the first paper in 2017 showing that most caloric restriction study, and, I mean, he used the protocol that was used by caloric restriction field, uh, it actually creates a condition of time restriction. So he showed that, and then he went back and worked with engineers to come up with a smart cage where, um, he could actually tell, he could program how much food is given to mice at what time of the day or night, completely programmed. So then he took this, uh, for example, suppose, say, the ad libitum-fed mice eats, say, 5 grams of chow in a day.... and if you want to reduce calories by, uh, 20%, then the CR mouse would get four grams of food. And he divided this into nine or 10 meals and then gave them in every 90 minutes. So, in this case they are eating small meals throughout their night, so there is no fasting. So you can say that, well, this mouse actually is not getting into fasting because in every few hours is, uh, getting some food. And then he measured how long the mouse is going to live. Um, and he used, um, he count, I mean, this is a very standard protocol. People count how many mice are dying on which day and then examine them to see whether they died because they, there was an accident or they actually, there was a natural cause. And then they calculate at the end what is the, um, half, uh, life. So 50% survival, because that's, on an average that's a good indicator because if there is an outlier that will live for a long time, then that can skew. So what was interesting was, the ad libitum fed mice, of course, they live certain number of days and then these calorie restricted mice that never got into super fasting, but kind of eating, s- snacking throughout day and night, that also lived 10% extra, 10% longer. So that means caloric restriction extended lifespan by 10%.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman38:18

      I've wondered about this because recently, you know, there's been, there were a bunch of news headlines about intermittent fasting, and I, and frankly I was frustrated, uh-

   5. SPSatchin Panda38:28

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman38:28

      ... if you looked at one major news outlet they would say, "Time-restricted feeding affords no additional benefit beyond caloric restriction for weight loss."

   7. SPSatchin Panda38:38

      Yeah. Yeah.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman38:38

      Then an- another popular press venue, let's call it that, same study described as, "Time-restricted feeding doesn't work."

   9. SPSatchin Panda38:50

      Yeah. (laughs)

   10. AHAndrew Huberman38:50

       Right. And then another one, maybe some place, um, even more extreme.

   11. SPSatchin Panda38:54

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman38:54

       You know, "Time-restricted feeding, um n- uh, only beneficial because of caloric restriction."

   13. SPSatchin Panda39:00

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman39:00

       Or something like that. So what you've s- essentially got are three different interpretations of the same data, all of which are... well, two of which are true, one of which is false in my opinion.

   15. SPSatchin Panda39:10

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman39:10

       But what I think people take away from that is, oh, time-restricted feeding isn't valuable, which is not the case, it, I think for many people it's a convenient way to eat because at least for people like me, it's simpler to designate between portions of my day when I'm eating and portions of day, my day when I'm not eating-

   17. SPSatchin Panda39:26

       Yeah. Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman39:26

       ... as opposed to eat portion control.

   19. SPSatchin Panda39:28

       Yeah.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman39:28

       For other people, portion control can work. But all of that is related to either maintenance or loss of weight.

   21. SPSatchin Panda39:35

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman39:36

       None of it deals with the lo- potential health benefits independent of weight loss.

   23. SPSatchin Panda39:41

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman39:41

       Right?

   25. SPSatchin Panda39:42

       So, uh-

   26. AHAndrew Huberman39:42

       Um, and so I, I think that, um, if we can segment those out, um, obviously in humans it's hard to know if a given treatment or experiment is extending life because you don't really know how long people would live anyway.

   27. SPSatchin Panda39:55

       Yeah.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman39:55

       Right? Whereas with mice you have some sense of when-

   29. SPSatchin Panda39:57

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman39:57

       ... the mortality was likely to occur. So w- what can we say about time-restricted feeding and longevity in terms of biomarkers or in terms of any other indication that people who start and stop their feeding window at a consistent time, somewhere between eight and 12 hours per 24 hour cycle, are tilting the scales towards living longer as opposed to living shorter?
9. 47:20 – 52:40

   Gender, Hormones & CR; Relative Energy Deficient in Sports (REDS)

   1. SPSatchin Panda47:20

      many of these. Uh, particularly we don't know how this sort of, uh, eating window will affect both sexes because, you know, we always think... Many of these mouse experiments even that I told you about, those are done only in male mice.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman47:33

      But that should be changing, right? Because the NIH, I know this 'cause I'm on study section...

   3. SPSatchin Panda47:37

      (laughs)

   4. AHAndrew Huberman47:38

      ... which is just a bunch of people who re- who r- review grants, is that every grant now has to include sex as a biological variable.

   5. SPSatchin Panda47:45

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman47:45

      It's hard to get away with a, um... Or rather I should say it the way it should be stated, which is, people are required and should want to look at these phenomenon in male and female mice-

   7. SPSatchin Panda47:57

      Yes.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman47:58

      ... especially if there are differences.

   9. SPSatchin Panda48:00

      So in this case, um, there are many... I mean, there was also another paper, um, in time-restricted feeding that also came out, a big paper showing that the, um, thermogenesis was accounting for loss in fat mass in time-restricted fed mice that was also done only in male mice. Um, so this is, um... We are paying attention to it, so we are now doing all of our studies in male and female, and we do see big differences between male and female. Coming back to humans, what typically happens is when you're trying to do four hours or six hours of time-restricted eating, people will inadvertently reduce their caloric intake.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman48:39

       Yeah, just because of gut volume.

   11. SPSatchin Panda48:40

       Gut volume, you can... That's...

   12. AHAndrew Huberman48:40

       I tried one meal per day and, and I felt like I was eating so much at that one sitting-

   13. SPSatchin Panda48:46

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman48:46

       ... that it led to a lot of gastric distress-

   15. SPSatchin Panda48:48

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman48:48

       ... and I get tired after the meal. And part of the reason I like to do time-restricted feeding is I have more energy.

   17. SPSatchin Panda48:54

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman48:54

       And certainly in the fasted state, I feel more energized-

   19. SPSatchin Panda48:58

       Yeah.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman48:58

       ... especially if I'm ingesting a little caffeine or something like that.

   21. SPSatchin Panda49:00

       Yeah. Um, so people will reduce, um, energy intake and then-Some people who are more active, they can actually... Unconsciously, they may be spending more energy in their physical activity and basal metabolic rate, all of this combined, than how much they're eating. And that can have a very adverse effect in long term, because we know that this energy deficit... And in fact there is a, um, scientific term for that. It's called RED-S, relative energy deficit in sports.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman49:34

       Relative energy deficit in sports. Okay.

   23. SPSatchin Panda49:36

       Yeah. It's because nearly 40% of athletes, um, not the NFL guys, but (laughs) you know, a lot of people who do track and field, um, and nearly 40% of athletes actually experience this REDS, RED-S, without knowing.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman49:52

       Can male and female athletes both-

   25. SPSatchin Panda49:54

       Both male and female.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman49:54

       ... experience REDS? So it's REDS, R-E-D-S.

   27. SPSatchin Panda49:57

       R-E-D-S.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman49:57

       Relative-

   29. SPSatchin Panda49:58

       Energy.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman49:59

       Relative energy deficit in sports.
10. 52:40 – 59:04

    Physical Activity, Nutrition & Feeding Window

    1. SPSatchin Panda52:40

       them. There are studies that are published showing four hours and six hours time-restricted eating has benefits on weight loss, but those are on healthy individuals and they were in the studies. So the, um, you know, the study team took a... uh, were already monitoring. They made sure that there was no sudden weight loss or weight loss below, um, some safety level. Uh, so those are very different from regular people who are, who may be even normal weight or even with, uh, within the healthy range. If they do, then they can potentially... So that's why what we think is eight to 10 hours may be the ideal spot to begin with, and, um, once you are physically active and you are also spending a lot of energy in physical activity or sports, you can even go up to 12 hours, because in mice we have done that experiment, um, up to 12 hours. They do get a lot of benefits, not all, but-

    2. AHAndrew Huberman53:39

       So this is 12 hours of feeding?

    3. SPSatchin Panda53:41

       12 hours of feeding.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman53:42

       Yeah.

    5. SPSatchin Panda53:42

       12 hours of fasting.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman53:42

       Yeah.

    7. SPSatchin Panda53:43

       Um, in humans, um, again, nobody has done systematically 12 hours, but there was one study in Europe, um, from Tin-Hai Collette lab, and Tin-Hai and I, we collaborate. So they used our MyCircadianClock app. This is a research app we developed just to... This is mostly used in time-restricted eating studies. And, um, he had nearly... I think he started with 200 Swiss, uh, participants, but then at the end, he selected and took very small number of group, people who are very, um, meticulous about recording all their food, and divided them into usual feeding, whatever they wanted to eat whenever they wanted to eat, and they were given the, uh, advice of Swiss nutrition advice that's given to improve health and reduce blood glucose, almost like diabetes prevention program in the US. And then the other group was given advice to eat within 12 hours. Um, this was very early on in time-restricted eating, and we thought that the mice were getting some benefit. Let's try whether 12 hours has any benefit. Um, the bottom line is, at the end of, uh, three months and six months, what, um, he reported is both groups lost same amount of body weight. Um, and then there was not too much significant difference between groups, but both groups actually improved their health.... so the bottom line is, the Swiss nutritional advice that he was giving, um, which is the standard of care there, it achieved the same amount of weight loss as just giving people this advice that eat within 12 hours. So one way to look at it, look at it as only like this. And, um, then he went to more extent and actually looked at every single meal these people consumed, so there are close to, I think, close to 60 or 70,000 meal records and pictures. He went through and then classified them to say whether these are, um, good quality food, so they call it the NOVA classification one, two, three, four. One is the food that you can almost eat raw, fruits, vegetables, um, yogurt, d- dairy products that you can almost... Without any preparation. And then second, NOVA two, is kind of home pr- home-cooked food that most people will prepare in few minutes, and then three. And then fourth one is the food that you can never prepare at home, so for example, biscuit or cookies that we usually purchase and a few other things. And usually, the NOVA four are unhealthy ultra-processed foods, so which we should not be eating, so the advice is to reduce NOVA four. And what he found was, uh, people who got all this advice, um, to re- improve their nutrition quality, they actually improved their nutrition quality. They reduced their NOVA four food and people who were in time-restricted eating, they ate within 12 hours, they did not change their nutrition quality. But what is interesting is they both got the same modest weight loss, so that begs the question that in the... Maybe Jin Hai will do this experiment (laughs) again, to combine nutrition advice with time restriction and maybe reduce the time to 10 hours and that might help. Um, so 12 hours is something that I say anyone from five-year-old to 100-year-old can do, and, um, if you are trying to maintain weight, that might be a good way, and combine that with exercise, it'll be great.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman57:20

       And y- and people can more easily avoid RED-S.

    9. SPSatchin Panda57:23

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman57:23

        In that way, women... And for non-athletes or recreational exercisers, it sounds like women, if they distribute their calories across 12 hours, they're less likely to lose their menstrual cycle.

    11. SPSatchin Panda57:33

        Yeah, so, uh, again, this is something that we have to look carefully. They have to be... Because we do have the My Circadian Clock app that many people download and self-monitor and they share the data for researchers and once-

    12. AHAndrew Huberman57:44

        We will provide a link to that, by the way.

    13. SPSatchin Panda57:46

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman57:46

        It's a great, it's a great tool.

    15. SPSatchin Panda57:47

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman57:47

        But-

    17. SPSatchin Panda57:48

        But once in a while, we do get this input from some women saying, "Oh, I started doing your time-restricted eating and I am seeing all these problems." And then I ask them, "Okay, so what else are you doing?" They typically (laughs) improved their nutrition quality, so they're eating only salad and few... And they're trying to increase their fiber intake and it's really hard to eat so much of uncooked food because cooking helps to absorb more nutrient. And then at the same time, they're running five miles every day. And, of course, all of this combinedly can lead to RED-S-like symptom, so that's why 12, I think, is a good point if you're combining, um, physical exercise and better nutrition quality because in mice also we have seen that if mice are eating healthy food, and they're eating within 10 to 12 hours, then they also live longer than mice that are eating healthy food but distributing their calorie over a long period of time. And this is, um, Rafat Dicaba's, um, finding from NIH. He has systematically done this study with two different types of diet and in mice, and he finds the same thing, that even mice that are eating within 12 hours, they do live longer than mice that eat randomly, even healthy

11. 59:04 – 1:03:00

    Nutrition Timing, Quality & Quantity; Low- Carbohydrate Diet

    1. SPSatchin Panda59:04

       food.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman59:05

       I, I recall a recent study, I think it was either published in Cell Reports or Cell Reports Medicine, forgive me for not remembering which, but both of course Cell Press journals, excellent journals, which explored time-restricted feeding in the context of low carbohydrate or non-low carbohydrate diet. So it was low carbohydrate versus low carbohydrate and time-restricted.

    3. SPSatchin Panda59:25

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman59:25

       So these all caloric matched-

    5. SPSatchin Panda59:27

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman59:27

       ... right, between groups and then non-low carbohydrate diet, so a sort of more standard, uh-

    7. SPSatchin Panda59:33

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman59:33

       ... I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% of calories from complex carbohydrates.

    9. SPSatchin Panda59:36

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman59:36

        And, and as I recall, the, um, the greatest weight loss... Remember, same calories across groups, folks... Um, was achieved with low carbohydrate plus caloric restriction.

    11. SPSatchin Panda59:47

        Yeah.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman59:48

        Um, and I wondered why all the popular-

    13. SPSatchin Panda59:51

        (laughs)

    14. AHAndrew Huberman59:51

        ... news, venues didn't cover that study.

    15. SPSatchin Panda59:53

        (laughs)

    16. AHAndrew Huberman59:54

        Um, but that's why I'm bringing it up now. I thought this is really interesting. And, um, and I'm somebody who's, uh, cycled low carbohydrate diet, um-

    17. SPSatchin Panda1:00:00

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:01

        ... before. I find it hard to sleep after about three or four days of being on a low starch-

    19. SPSatchin Panda1:00:06

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:07

        ... diet, just personally. I, so I like to eat some starches.

    21. SPSatchin Panda1:00:09

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:10

        Especially if exercising intensely or working intensely. That's just-

    23. SPSatchin Panda1:00:13

        Yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:13

        ... a little editorial there that, um... But look, I know many people who do just feel better on a low carbohydrate diet, but-

    25. SPSatchin Panda1:00:20

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:20

        ... well, what do you think of those data? Because it speaks to the idea that, okay, it's not just the total number of calories. It's not just the quality of those calories. It's the timing of those calories and maybe carbohydrate restriction in conjunction with time-restricted feeding might be the best path for people who are looking to lose weight.

    27. SPSatchin Panda1:00:40

        No, I, I totally agree that when it comes to nutrition, quality, quantity, and timing, all these three matter. Nearly 40% of people who maintain healthy body weight, because 60% are overweight or obese, 40% are maintaining healthy body weight. And out of those 40%, I would say nearly majority of them are very aware about how much they're eating and what quality of food they're eating.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:04

        Ah, so you're really an optimist. You're looking at the 40% of the glass that's, uh-

    29. SPSatchin Panda1:01:08

        (laughs)

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:08

        ... or should we say not full to...
12. 1:03:00 – 1:15:07

    Caffeine, Nighttime Socialization, Fire, Breakfast

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:00

    2. SPSatchin Panda1:03:00

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:00

       Uh, maybe we could talk about that because you, of course, um, are well-known for time-restricted feeding and the science around that, but also other things as well, um, not the least of which is circadian biology generally.

    4. SPSatchin Panda1:03:10

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:10

       So I always think of the main timekeepers for our system being feeding, light, activity-

    6. SPSatchin Panda1:03:17

       Yep.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:18

       ... and social connection.

    8. SPSatchin Panda1:03:19

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:19

       Did I miss- and maybe temp- and temperature.

    10. SPSatchin Panda1:03:21

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:22

        Yeah. So how do these combine with one another, uh, using f- timing that we begin and stop feeding as kind of an anchor point? Can we explore that a little bit?

    12. SPSatchin Panda1:03:29

        Yeah, so, you know, we got into this, um, beginning and end, and then we- you asked whether calorie, how much calorie will break the fast, um, one thing that I want, um, the listeners and viewers to bring back to this timing of when we- when we are breaking the fast, because we equate health with weight, body weight, and, um, that's when, uh, we are talking about nutrition quality and quantity because both of them have impact. So now let's think about mental health 'cause a lot of people who struggle with mental health, they have anxiety or, um, depression, and also, um, so gut health because, uh, there are a lot of people who also have acid reflux or heartburn, and we know that acid reflux or heartburn can be exacerbated by caffeine intake in empty stomach. Um, those who have acid reflux or heartburn, they're prone to that, and, um, having black coffee in the morning before any food, um, can upset their stomach. So that's why in those cases, it's very clearly that caffeine for them becomes the trigger and that something, the food is supposed to come and then the stomach is not seeing the food so it's overreacting, producing excess acid, and that comes up to the esophagus and that's what they experience. Um, so if people have that kind of condition, then maybe they should consider when they drink their first coffee is breaking their overall fast or kind of putting their- putting their health at risk for acid reflux. The other thing is people who have anxiety, panic attack, um, we know that caffeine can, (laughs) jazz you up, so-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:21

        Especially on an empty stomach.

    14. SPSatchin Panda1:05:22

        ... especially on an empty stomach. So for them, again, caffeine can be a trigger, so that's why, um, I want to kind of differentiate that there is this mental health and other aspects of health, and these are two clear examples where anxiety, panic attack related to brain health or acid reflux related to our gut health. Um, in those cases, w- when we consume that caffeine in the morning can affect, so-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:53

        Do you avoid caffeine in the morning?

    16. SPSatchin Panda1:05:55

        No, actually, um, here is the interesting, uh, history about caffeine, and this is something I did not know, and, um, I was once invited to this, uh, history of nighttime activity, and maybe we can take a little bit of detour and talk about, uh, nighttime activity because that fascinates me as a circadian biologist 'cause over the last 200,000 years, means we assume that humans, homo sapiens evolved 200,000 years ago, so we have been, as a species, we have been living on this planet for 200,000 years, and only in the last, you can say couple of thousand or 5,000 years when we came to control fire or maybe you can even go back 100,000 years, there is some debate. Um, so then the question is, well, when we control fire and we lighted up the fire and we could light up whenever we wanted, we can add fuel and we can stop the fire when we don't want it. That's the key ability in humans that differentiates them from all the other species. No other species, we can always say, yes, there are signs of this intelligent, um, decision making, for example, we know many crows can make decision, many, many animals, they kind of figure out, strategize how to get food, but controlled use of fire is something very...... specific to human. And when we started, um, controlling fire, fire did not essentially extend the day, because fire created a evening that was very different from what people did during the day, and what people used to do during the day. They worked a lot, means gathering food (laughs) was almost everything that we did. And so in the evening, after the, after the, uh, after we brought, uh, food, mostly tubers or maybe lentils to cook or once in a while s- um, animals so that we can, we could barbecue, um, all of these things happened around fire. And fire was so expensive that, uh, it w- it was mostly communal fire. So if you go back to, for example, Maasai and, uh, all these ancestr- uh, sorry, um, uh, populations that have no access to electricity and are still living kind of that, uh, historical life, uh, fire is a communal event. And they sat around, they cooked food, and then what happened? They did not talk about work. They talked about, um, culture. They talked, they sang, they danced, they, uh, strategized. Um, that's how politics started, philosophy started, science started. All of these things that are very unique to human civilization started around fireside chat. So, um, in that way, if we think about it, we are still doing fireside chat. The only thing is we have the microwave and the t- television, uh, or social media. (laughs)

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:01

        And now we chat with our thumbs.

    18. SPSatchin Panda1:09:03

        (laughs) Right. So it's still, so we are hooked to that evening activity, because that's when we are completely free from the pressure of the work, and we want to express ourself. That's our independent time. So that's why most people find it very difficult to do time-restricted eating and stop eating at 6:00, because it's ingrained in our, in our even DNA, that we want to eat and socialize in the evening.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:30

        Right.

    20. SPSatchin Panda1:09:32

        So now, uh, let's fast-forward and see what is the role of coffee in this? (laughs) And if you look at coffee consumption, particularly cafe, uh, where people can come and have a little bit of coffee and socialize, it also started as a evening activity. And, um, this is in, um... Now we can go back to Istanbul, because that's one place where coffee, cafes started in mid-16th century. So if you, we are talking about 1540 to 1570, um, and that's when, um... I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the name of historians who, (laughs) who actually invited me in. Uh, okay, his name is Cemal, uh, Ceyfettin. And, uh, um, I must be butchering the name, but I will try to find it.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:21

        It's all right. We will provide the spelling. And the wonderful thing about social media is somebody will tell us on YouTube the proper pronunciation. So this is a great opportunity. If you know the proper pronunciation, please put it in the comments on YouTube.

    22. SPSatchin Panda1:10:32

        Yeah. Um, I actually am even checking right now in my, uh, EndNote library. It's not picking up that.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:37

        That's all right. We, we'll provide a link.

    24. SPSatchin Panda1:10:39

        So I must be... Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:39

        We'll provide a link.

    26. SPSatchin Panda1:10:39

        So what happened was, um, so coffee was introduced, and, um, people came and, uh, drank coffee and talked about politics. (laughs)

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:48

        At night.

    28. SPSatchin Panda1:10:49

        At night, at evening. And it actually started with, uh, with, uh, Sufi branch of Islam, because they are the ones who, uh, consumed coffee in the evening, and this is the branch of Islam where they actually sing and dance and all that happened in the evening. So singing, dancing, um, by the Sufis, and then here in Istanbul, people started congregating and having, um, uh, talk about politics. But then around the same time, um, some, you know, in Turkey, there was a good sizable number of, uh, Muslims who have to do five prayers a day, number of prayers at set time. The first prayer is very early in the morning. And then they figured out that if they wake up and immediately have coffee, then they can stay awake for the first prayer. And in that way, they felt pretty good when they woke up. So that's how it started as a morning drink, to stay awake and kind of get, get on with the day. But what happened was, I don't know whether you have ever tried Turkish coffee. It's very thick.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:58

        Mm-hmm. Yeah, I ha- a few years ago, right before the pandemic, 2019, I traveled to Turkey. It was, uh, first of all, the food is amazing. The coffee is indeed very, very thick.

    30. SPSatchin Panda1:12:08

        Yeah.
13. 1:15:07 – 1:16:20

    Sponsor: InsideTracker

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:07

       I'd like to take a brief break and thank our sponsor, InsideTracker. InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals. I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test. The problem with a lot of blood and DNA tests out there, however, is that you get data back about metabolic factors, lipids and hormones and so forth, but you don't know what to do with those data. InsideTracker solves that problem and makes it very easy for you to understand what sorts of nutritional, behavioral, maybe even supplementation-based interventions you might want to take on in order to adjust the numbers of those metabolic factors, hormones, lipids, and other things that impact your immediate and long-term health, to bring those numbers into the ranges that are appropriate and indeed optimal for you. If you'd like to try InsideTracker, go to insidetracker.com/huberman. They have a special promotion right now through Pi Day, March 14th, where you can get 31% off their Ultimate Plan. This is their biggest promotion of the year. Again, if you go to insidetracker.com/huberman, you can get 31% off their Ultimate Plan.

14. 1:16:20 – 1:26:37

    Circadian Rhythm, “Night Owls” & Genetics

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:20

    2. SPSatchin Panda1:16:20

       No, actually, I'm kind of, um, speaking what many other researchers have found, and this, this particularly, this Fireside Chat, I'm forgetting again the name of the scientist. I think she's from University of Washington, Seattle. Um, she went to Africa and kind of recorded what people are talking. Of course she could not understand what they were talking.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:42

       Twitter and whether or not Tesla's stock is going up, of course.

    4. SPSatchin Panda1:16:45

       (laughs)

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:46

       No, no, no, just, just kidding folks. (laughs)

    6. SPSatchin Panda1:16:49

       And then came back and tried-

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:50

       (laughs)

    8. SPSatchin Panda1:16:50

       ... to translate it and then figured out that-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:51

       Exactly.

    10. SPSatchin Panda1:16:52

        ... what they were talking during daytime-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:53

        (laughs)

    12. SPSatchin Panda1:16:53

        ... and in the evening were very different. So-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:55

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SPSatchin Panda1:16:55

        ... um, so, so, uh, yeah-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:58

        What are they talking about at night? Do you-

    16. SPSatchin Panda1:17:00

        So, exactly. So this is, uh, like they're talking about, um, matchmaking and talking about politics and, uh, strategizing, to gather food or, or, and, uh, even singing and dancing. Uh, so this is, um, if you think, if we think about it, how we manage sunset to our bedtime, what we do between sunset and bedtime affects most of our health.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:30

        I'm gonna think about that for a moment. I totally agree. Um, and by the way, I'm a huge believer and h- and I'm in, living in great hope for the idea that right now I do think that scientists understand a lot more about the different stages of sleep, slow wave sleep, REM sleep, et cetera, than we do active waking states.

    18. SPSatchin Panda1:17:50

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:50

        Like, we talk about being focused or being alert, but that's not... those aren't scientific terms-

    20. SPSatchin Panda1:17:54

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:54

        ... as we know. But I do believe and I've noticed a distinct difference between the first eight hours of the day in terms of cognition. And we know that the catecholamines are at much higher levels plus cortisol, so-

    22. SPSatchin Panda1:18:07

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:07

        ... dopamine, cortisol, epinephrine, all of that is really at much higher levels than in the later evening. And so they, this evening time, it almo- certainly in the context of mental health, we know that morning and evening we are basically different creatures.

    24. SPSatchin Panda1:18:20

        People. Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:20

        Yeah. Completely.

    26. SPSatchin Panda1:18:21

        We're different creature. Yeah. So that's why I, I think in the evening, if you think about it, um... Again, this is, uh, again, another set of research from, um, my good friend Horacio, who-

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:34

        Iglesias.

    28. SPSatchin Panda1:18:35

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:35

        Oh, yeah.

    30. SPSatchin Panda1:18:36

        Yeah. (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:49:06