Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds | Dr. Becky Kennedy

1. 0:00 – 2:44

   Dr. Becky Kennedy

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist specializing in parent-child relationships. She received her degrees and did her training at Duke University and Columbia University in New York. She is the author of the best-selling book Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. She is also the founder and creator of an online learning platform also called Good Inside, at which parents and parents-to-be can learn the best possible parenting skills that are grounded in the fields of clinical psychology, that have been proven to work in the real world, and that can allow people to navigate common sticking points in parent-child relationships. During today's discussion, you will learn a tremendous amount of actionable knowledge about what it is to be a good parent. This is a conversation that pertains not just to parents and parents-to-be, but also uncles, aunts, grandparents, and also those of you not planning to or who do not want children. I say that because while everything we discuss today is grounded in the discussion around parent-child relationships, it indeed pertains to all of us and relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, friendships, workplace relationships, and our relationship to self. Dr. Kennedy defines for us and makes clear and actionable what the exact job of good parenting is and how that relates to other relationships that we might have. She explains how to set healthy boundaries, and in fact defines exactly what healthy boundaries are. There's a lot of misconception about that. We also talk a lot about empathy and the need to make children and ourselves feel safe in all kinds of relating. We discuss how to navigate disagreements and arguments, apologies and punishments, reward, and on and on, all framed within a real-world, real-time context. What I mean by that, and what I think really sets apart Dr. Becky Kennedy's work from so much else that you'll see out there on parent-child and other types of relationships, is that she makes what to do and say and what not to do and say in a variety of real-world contexts very clear such that you can access that knowledge and do those specific things and avoid those specific things even when things get tense. In fact, especially when things get difficult or tense. By the end of today's episode, you will have learned a dozen or more very potent clinically backed tools to navigate parent-child relating, including your relationship to your own parents, alive or dead, and your relationship to self.

2. 2:44 – 7:35

   Sponsors: Mateína, Joovv & AeroPress

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:44

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Mateina. Mateina makes loose-leaf and ready-to-drink yerba mate. I often discuss yerba mate's benefits, such as regulating blood sugar, its high antioxidant content, the ways that it can improve digestion, and possible neuroprotective effects. I also drink yerba mate because I love the taste. While there are a lot of different choices of yerba mate drinks out there, I love Mateina because, again, they have the no-sugar variety, as well as the fact that both their loose-leaf and their canned varieties are of the absolute best quality, so much so that I decided to become a partial owner in the company. Although I must say, even if they hadn't allowed me to do that, I would be drinking Mateina. It is the cleanest-tasting and best yerba mate you can find. I love the taste of brewed loose-leaf Mateina yerba mate, and I particularly love the taste of Mateina's new canned cold brew zero-sugar yerba mate, which I personally helped them develop. If you'd like to try Mateina, go to drinkmateina.com/huberman. Right now, Mateina is offering a free one-pound bag of loose-leaf yerba mate tea and free shipping with the purchase of two cases of their cold brew yerba mate. Again, that's drinkmateina.com/huberman to get the free bag of yerba mate loose-leaf tea and free shipping. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible role that light can have on our biology, and of course, I'm always telling people that they should get sunlight in their eyes as soon as possible after waking on as many days of their life as possible for sake of setting circadian rhythm, daytime mood, focus, and alertness, and improved sleep. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light has been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery; improved skin health and wound healing, even improvements in acne, or that is removal of acne; reducing pain and inflammation; improving mitochondrial function; and even improving vision itself. What sets Joovv apart and why it's my preferred red light therapy device is that it has clinically proven wavelengths, meaning it uses specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination that trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the handheld Joovv every day. The handheld Joovv is about the size of a thick piece of toast, and I also own a Joovv panel that allows for full body exposure, and I use that one approximately five times per week for about 10 to 15 minutes per session. If you would like to try Joovv, you can go to joovv.com/huberman to receive $50 off your first purchase. Again, that's Joovv, spelled J- O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get $50 off your first purchase.Today's episode is also brought to us by AeroPress. AeroPress is similar to a French press for making coffee, but is in fact a much better way to make coffee. I first learned about AeroPress well over 10 years ago, and I've been using one ever since. AeroPress was developed by Alan Adler, who was an engineer at Stanford, and I knew of Alan because he had also built the so-called Aerobie Frisbee, so he was sort of famous in our community for developing these different feats of engineering that turned into commercial products. Now, I love coffee. I'm somebody that drinks coffee nearly every day, usually about 90 to 120 minutes after I wake up in the morning, although not always. Sometimes if I'm going to exercise, I'll drink coffee first thing in the morning. But I love, love, love coffee, and what I've personally found is that by using the AeroPress, I can make the best possible tasting cup of coffee. I don't know what exactly it is in the AeroPress that allows the same beans to be prepared into a cup of coffee that tastes that much better as compared to any other form of brewing that coffee, even the traditional French press. The AeroPress is extremely easy to use and it's extremely compact. In fact, I take it with me whenever I travel and I use it on the road in hotels, even on planes. I'll just ask for some hot water and I'll brew my coffee or tea right there on the plane. With over 55,000 five-star reviews, AeroPress is the best reviewed coffee press in the world. If you would like to try AeroPress, you can go to aeropress.com/huberman, that's A-E-R-O-P-R-E-S-S .com/huberman to get 20% off any AeroPress coffee maker. AeroPress ships in the USA, Canada, and over 60 other countries in the world. Again, that's aeropress.com/huberman to get 20% off. And now for my discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

3. 7:35 – 14:34

   Healthy Relationships: Sturdiness, Boundaries & Empathy

   1. AHAndrew Huberman7:35

      Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:38

      Thank you. So excited to be here.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman7:40

      I have a lot of questions for you, and as I mentioned in my introduction, much of what we are going to discuss today relates to parent-child relating, but pertains to relationships generally. So people with children, without children, who don't want children, hopefully there aren't people that hate children, but for all people, uh, out there with children or not, planning them or not, relationships are really just fundamental to who we are, and I actually place relationships, including relationship to self, in what we now think of as the six pillars of mental health, physical health and performance. Um, sleep, nutrition, exercise, relationships clearly vital to all aspects of life. So, I'd like to start off by just asking for all of us, a- are there some simple or perhaps not so simple questions that, uh, we can reflect on that give us a sense of, you know, how good a parent we are or would be based on, I don't know, our- our previous parent-child relationships, our relationship to self? You know, like what kind of things come to bear when we think about really healthy relationships? Um, I can, you know, start rattling off a list of what I imagine they could be, but what are your thoughts? Like what are the, what's the parameter space as- as we say, wh- wh- how should we think about relationships besides just, "Oh, you know, I either like this person or don't," or, "I feel good around them or I don't," or separating how I feel about them versus how they make me feel? You know, uh, maybe we can drill a little deeper below the- the kind of, uh, more superficial stuff that we often see out there.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:20

      The first thing that comes to mind when you say that is this word sturdiness. And to me when someone says like, "What is good inside as an approach?" And that's always the first word that comes to mind. And I know that's like an odd word. It's not a word we like to use a lot, although I do think most people when you say that person's like a really sturdy person, I think we all have some connotation or feeling at least of what that means. And I use it a lot being a sturdy parent, being a sturdy leader, I talk a lot about the similarities to parenting and kind of being a pilot of a plane and- and that word sturdy always comes up. And so I remember a little while ago someone pushed me though like, "What's your definition of what that means?" And at that point I thought, "Wow, I should probably have a definition given I- I use it a lot." But what I think it really means is an ability to be connected to yourself and to someone else at the same time.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman10:03

      Whoa.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:03

      And I think that is really the definition of sturdy leadership, and that is the key thing that's present in a healthy relationship, that at once I kind of know my values, what I want, what I need, I feel like I can be true to that, and at the same time I can kind of connect to someone else who probably has different wants and needs and maybe even slightly different values at the same time. And the thing that- that leads me to next is wh- what I think about is like family jobs and a parent job. So i- in almost any other place, (laughs) y- you could assume if I'm getting a new job at this company, like there's just no way I could do my job well if I don't know what my job is. Right? If you go to your desk and your boss is like, "Have a good day, do a good job," and there's no job description, you'd be like, "I (laughs) think that's impossible." But over and over with parents, if I say to them, "Well, what is your job with your kid?" Or when your kid is having a tantrum or they hit or they're rude or they lie to your face or anything, like what is your job in that moment? Most people, very well-intentioned, educated people who would never ever take a job if they didn't have a job description, they look at me, they're like, "I have- I have no idea." So how can we do it well? How can we then perform it to a place to get to the outcomes we want if you don't have the foundation of what your job is? And to me, I- I- I've thought a lot about it. I think parents actually have two jobs and it relates to sturdiness, so you'll- you'll connect it, where one of our jobs is boundaries. And to me boundaries are things we tell people we will do and they require the other person to do nothing. And that's like really important, 'cause a lot of times we think we're setting a boundary when actually we're making a request, and boundaries keep us connected to ourselves.They represent our values and our wants and our needs. And in a parent-child relationship, they also keep our kids safe. If I just know in a simple way, like, my kids watched enough TV today and they really have to get to bed, and I know that. Like, I don't want them to stay up late. I kind of know what my family needs. I have to set a boundary. But the other part of my job is, like, empathy and validation, which is a way of connecting to someone else, where you see someone else's feelings and experiences real. You don't agree with it probably, you don't necessarily condone the behavior that's the representation of the feelings, but the feelings themself, you need to connect to. And I feel like those are our two jobs as parents, and that's really the way to be a sturdy leader and to be in a sturdy, healthy relationship with your kids.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman12:41

      Wow. So much there, uh, and I love it. Uh, and h- here's one of the reasons I love it. This notion of sturdiness, something that I don't think we hear enough about, um, you know, we hear about resilience, grit, um, a- also important terms. Um, but sturdiness as, as you've described it in the job of parenting, um, really seems to i- include a lot of, um, verbs, not just nouns and adjectives. And I, and I'm a huge fan of verbs, because biology and to some extent psychology, um, yes, also psychology, is all about verbs. Um, and so the labels often are, um, mysterious, but sturdiness, it, you know, just sends a, a clear message of, of something that, um, doesn't budge easily. Um, but then as you describe the job of being a parent, having boundaries, and I'd like to drill into that a little bit more what, how you view boundaries-

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:35

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman13:36

      ... um, but also empathy, uh, it's not a walled off, um, picture. It's one that, that is semi-permeable. Um, also, uh, and I confess I'm a bit, uh, obsessed with, um, old school psychoanalytic theory, not as the, the, the be all, end all of psychology, but, but it also suggests, um, like, this other Other relationship. Like, I'm a person, I have a self, you're a person, you have a self. This is the opposite of codependency where obviously dependency and two people being, quote unquote, "codependent" can be healthy in the context of relying on one another. But, uh, as I understand it, when one person has a self and another person doesn't have a self or this notion of merging, not just in romantic relationships, but child-parent relationships, you know, "I'm best friends with my mom or dad." Is that a good thing? (laughs) I don't know.

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:25

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman14:25

       But this notion of other Other relationships-

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:28

       Yes.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman14:28

       ... it's like, I'm a self, you're a self, and we each see each other as an Other. Um,

4. 14:34 – 18:24

   Tool: Establishing Boundaries

   1. AHAndrew Huberman14:34

      anyway, I, I think there's so much to explore here. So valuable. Um, you mentioned that boundaries are something that we do and that the... requires that the other do nothing.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:44

      Yes.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman14:45

      Um, could we go a little bit further into that? Because, um, it's a beautiful concept and, um, this notion of boundaries, but like, uh, gaslighting narcissism and all the other things that we hear about nowadays, I think is... are often badly misunderstood. So tell us more about boundaries and, uh, how that looks in the-

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:02

      Yes.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman15:03

      ... in the action sense of it.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:04

      And this is also connected to what you're saying, that other Other relationship, I'm a person, you're a person, and so many times that's actually is what gets merged. And so my kid gets upset that I say they can't watch another show and, and a parent really in that moment it, it's like their... whose feelings are whose? Like, they were upset, was I was upset? A second ago I thought I should set the boundary and now all of a sudden I'm changing my mind. There is this complete role kind of confusion and merger, which is one of the main reasons that kids get actually really scared and escalate their behavior 'cause they don't have a sturdy leader when they really need one, right? So boundaries are what we tell someone we will do and they require the other person to do nothing. I like this definition for a lot of reasons. I'm just very practical. So it allows me after I set a boundary to, like, assess, was that a boundary or not? Right? Because, let's take, um, let's take the TV example. It's whatever time at night, my kid has just watched a show and they know they're supposed to watch one show and then, you know, turn off the TV. I hear from parents a lot, "My kid doesn't listen," or, "My kid doesn't respect my boundaries." And I'll say, "Okay, like, that sounds hard. Let's get into that." So then they'll say, "So I told my kid to shut off the TV and they just kept watching. They just kept on. I told my kid to stop jumping on the couch and they kept jumping. They don't respect my boundaries. They don't listen." To me, this is, like, a beautiful example of, like, this is a problem, I agree, but this is not a boundary problem. You made a request of your child, and frankly, if you have your... I'm making this up, seven-year-old watching TV, I'm not so good at putting away TV and a phone at night. Like, it's just hard for me to do. So your seven-year-old probably is just, you know, addicted to what's ever happening and we're kind of asking our kid to do our job for us, because we don't want our kid to be mad at us or whatever it is. A boundary in that situation would be saying, "Ooh, you didn't put off the TV. Look, by the time I get over there, if you haven't turned off the TV, and I don't want to do this, but I will, I will take the remote out of your hand and shut it off." A boundary is saying, "Ooh, after my request doesn't work, can you get off the couch? You can jump on the floor. Look, if by the time I get over there you haven't gotten off the couch, I will pick you up." That is... like, I would say I'm not gonna put the success of my intervention in my, like, seven-year-old's hand. I care too much about my own needs and my own role as a, as a leader in my home to do that, right? Same thing with, let's say, in-laws, so my mother-in-law doesn't respect my boundary. She always sh- shows up without calling. Now, I don't want to get to this point, and there's a lot of things in a relationship we can do before we get to this point. But if that's really a boundary and I have a very kind of intrusive mother-in-law, a boundary would be saying, "Look, th- this is gonna be awkward, and I know you mean well, but the next time you come unannounced, I will come to your car and say, 'Ugh, this time doesn't work for us. You cannot come in.' And I will go back into my house and close the door." Like, now there's gonna be lots of feelings around that, but you are now setting a true boundary.And when we say our kids don't listen, those are often situations, not all of them, but there's a big percentage where I'm actually not setting a boundary early enough and in a sturdy enough way, which is what my kid needs because at that point, they simply don't have the skills to inhibit an urge and they need me to be the boundary for them.

5. 18:24 – 22:19

   Rules, Boundaries & Connection

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:25

   2. AHAndrew Huberman18:25

      We hear sometimes that, uh, kids are craving rules, they're craving boundaries. Um, I don't know, I was kind of a wild adolescent and teenager, um, maybe a little more than wild. I, I don't recall ever craving rules. I, but I do recall paying attention to their lack of presence. So what of that? Um, you know, is this notion that kids really want and crave rules and boundaries, is that, is that sort of a, a, I don't know, projection that we put onto them? Um, and, and I'm not exploring this just, just for fun.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:00

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman19:01

      I'm exploring it because I think that one thing that's very helpful in setting boundaries, especially with kids, is the idea that, gosh, even if it's a bit painful to see them in discomfort, there's that empathy piece that you talked about before.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:14

      Yes.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman19:14

      That empathic attunement can, um, get in the way of boundaries, right? These are, and they're not mutually exclusive, but these are somewhat competing forces, uh, set, uh, at times. So if we, if we know or if we can acknowledge or at least explore this idea that rules are deep down what they really want, not just what they need-

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:33

      Yes.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman19:34

      ... um, maybe it would help.

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:35

      Yes. And I think, by the way, am I taking, you know, the remote away or taking my kid off the couch, just to be clear, if I do that to my kid, like, they are not gonna say, "Oh, mom, you are the best mom in the world, thank you." They are gonna cry and scream. And that's where boundaries and empathy, those two parts of our job, actually do always go together. I think they're actually partners. They're not actually at odds, because as soon as my kid is upset, what I would say to them is, "Oh, you wanted to jump on the couch. It's not as much fun on the floor. Oh, you really wanted to watch another show. You didn't even want it this big. You wanted to watch it this big." It sounds crazy 'cause you're like, "Wait, why am I empathizing with that feeling? They just kind of disobeyed." No, they're two different things. I'm doing my job in setting a boundary. They're actually doing their job in feeling their feelings. That's actually their job. The only way you can ever learn to regulate a feeling is through feeling the feeling. So they're doing their job, now I'm gonna validate. And this is how kids learn emotion regulation. Boundaries, they feel, I validate, I hold the boundary, over and over and over. So do kids crave rules? And I, I think one of the issues is that most parenting approaches have one or the other, and I think they're both very incomplete strategies. If you just lead with rules, right? I don't know who said it, definitely wasn't me, like, what is it, "Rules without relationship lead to rebellion"? Yeah, that's what happens, right? So that's not good. But I see this day and age we've swung the other direction. It is also not a complete parenting strategy when your kid's jumping on the couch to do nothing if you think that's dangerous and just saying, "Oh, you really wanna jump, jump, jump and such big feelings." Like that's not what kids need. I think kids crave boundaries and they crave feeling seen and understood. Because as kids are growing up, like, I think the questions they're always asking parents, even though of course they never say this, is just, "Am I real and am I safe?" Every interaction that's what they're asking us. The reason we have to validate their feelings when they're upset, even though they're so upset just that their string cheese broke, whatever it is, is feelings don't have markers like blood or, like, they don't know. And so when we say, "Oh, you wanted your string cheese to be together," what we're really saying is, "The things you experience inside of you are real." But kids are also desperate to know, like, how far do things go? No one likes to feel boundaryless as a kid. That's terrifying, right? And so when we set a boundary, we actually say to a kid, like, "I will always protect you." Like, "I won't let things get so far out of control." So I do think, I don't know if it's rules, but kids crave connection, and I think boundaries and kind of validation and empathy, they are the two forms of connection that kids, yeah, are really desperate for.

6. 22:19 – 29:48

   Rewards & Punishments; Skill Building

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:20

   2. AHAndrew Huberman22:20

      What about rewarding kids? And here rather than, um, start off by asking, you know, what are the best ways to reward kids in healthy ways, and I will ask that in a moment, um, how can we, uh, evaluate the notion of, of rewards or incentives, um, through this lens of sturdiness, boundaries, and empathy?

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:44

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman22:44

      Um, because, you know, I could imagine, you know, a, a reward that's outsized in comparison to what a kid did, you know, "Okay, great, you know, you, you took your plate to the kitchen sink after dinner, um, you know, you get $10,000," obviously out of scale, extreme example, but just by way of example. Um, you're gonna screw up their reward mechanisms for, for, for life if you ask me and that everything I know about reward and neuroplasticity says that, that, that would occur. But, but this idea that, you know, you incentivize kids. "If, i- if you turn off the TV now, then you definitely can watch tomorrow night. Whereas if you don't, you can't." Right? So you're sort of merging reward and potential punishment.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:26

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman23:27

      Um, you know, it... How do we bound rewards, um, and, uh, how do we take into account that when we start adding rewards to scenarios that, that we're, we're mixing and matching life experience for them, you know? Okay, so now doing what I'm told, do I al- always expect a reward? Um, if the reward doesn't come next time, we know based on reward prediction error, we tend to be worse off emotionally than had we never received-

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:53

      Yeah.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman23:53

      ... a reward in the first place. Again, pretty, pretty vast parameter space, but what are your thoughts on best ways to reward kids for standard good behavior-

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:02

      Yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman24:02

       ... versus achievement?... versus elimination of bad behavior.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:07

       Yep.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman24:08

       Maybe. So three-

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:08

       So I think-

   14. AHAndrew Huberman24:09

       ... three categories.

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:09

       ... I think you're asking a much bigger question, or I'm going to... I think you are, which is, like, what do... why, why do parents think we need to reward kids (laughs) ? I think that's... Why do we think we need to punish kids? And this is actually where everything I worked on started from, because the way I was trained to work with parents, I went to, you know, the best gold standard, evidence-based program, and it was all about timeouts and punishments and rewards and stickers and ignoring and praise and, and honestly, when... during the training, for the years after I kind of practiced this way, my... I feel like that... and you know this better than I am so I shouldn't even say this, but, like, that left part of my brain, like, logic and linearity, I was just like, "This is amazing. Oh, my goodness, we're going to get more of the good behavior and we're going to not get the bad behavior." And, and I'd start teaching this to parents in my private practice, and there was this little thing with me, I don't even know... I was like, "I don't know about this. I don't know." And it'd get louder and louder to the point that in a session I literally said to, to, uh, a parent in front of me, I was just like telling them how to do a timeout and I said, "I'm sorry. I, I don't believe anything I've been telling you." That's literally what I said. 'Cause I just... it was so loud and they were... it was obviously super awkward, but it led me to, uh, I feel like from this first principles way be like, there are a million assumptions that we have about raising kids, and I think about relationships, and if I just stripped them back, what would I be left with and what would be a new building from there? And rewards and, like, punishments to me are these assumptions that we have somehow converted from, like, the fiction shelf of the library (laughs) in my mind to, like, the non-fiction shelf as, like, truths. And I, I kind of rail against all of them. So I think, I think the question, if that's okay to go in that direction, to me is, like, why do we think we need to reward kids and is there actually a better system both short term and long term? I'm incredibly long-term greedy in my parenting approach 'cause at the end of the day, 18 and up is where things really matter. Not really matter. I mean, they all matter, but I'd rather... you know, I want to help my kids become sturdy, resilient adults. But I'm short-term greedy too 'cause I'm a realist. Like, I just can't deal with like all these difficult moments. You get both for sure without rewards and punishments. So I don't know. What might someone tell me they give a reward for? Do you want to use the, like, clearing the table or... example? Let's start that there. It kind of goes back to, like, believing kids are inherently good inside. I really think it goes back to that. If you really believe kids are inherently good inside, which, by the way, when I strip back every assumption, the only thing I was left with was that. Literally the only thing. And then I started to think, "Okay. So if they're good inside, why do they do so many annoying things, like, all the time?" But that gave me a gap, and I feel like that is very exciting to have a gap. Like, why do people who are good inside do such bad things, right? Adults or kids. And to me, right, kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage those feelings. Like, period. And we've often thought therefore when feelings... feelings without skills come out in behaviors. I think that's what bad behaviors are. Feelings or urges or something without a skill to manage them or without access to the skill maybe in that moment. Either way. And then we end up punishing behavior, but the behavior was just a sign of the lack of skill. So I can't imagine anyone thinking I could teach my kid to swim by punishing them for not swimming. Like, I think someone would say that was crazy. Um, and, but that's kind of how we raise kids. And then we think rewarding them is going to be effective, but it actually leads over and over to what you said. I've seen these parents over and over in my private practice. "My 14-year-old literally won't pick up their clothes from the floor unless I give them $5. Like, how did I get here?" And I'm like, "Yeah. That's, that's a problem," but I saw how they got there. So let's take clearing, you know, th- their plate. Like, I know this is going to sound cheesy, but kids do have something in them where they want to feel like a purposeful, meaningful part of society. They do. Impact drives adults and it drives kids. It's not the same type of rewarding as playing Fortnite. It's a totally (laughs) different system, but I think the question is, like, why do we think we have to bribe kids or, you know, kind of trick them into doing things that are kind of, like, basic parts of human life? And so if we take that and my kid chronically isn't clearing their plate, I could say to them, "Look. Every time you clear a plate, I'm going to give you a sticker. After five stickers, you're going to get..." I don't know. Whatever it is. To me, like, a much more just effective way is I'd say to my kid, "Hey, I know you know, like, clearing a plate is just one way of being part of this family and taking care of stuff. I know you know that. We're on the same team." I say that phrase, "We're on the same team," right? "We are. Um, something's getting in your way of remembering." I'm going to assume... I like the... (laughs) like, the most generous interpretation. That, to me, allows you to separate someone's bad behavior from their good identity. Then I'm going to say, "What would help you remember?" We literally did this with my son who always had his towel on the floor. And I was just like, "I bet he just doesn't remember. He literally doesn't see it." We talked about it and he's like... We talked about him putting a Post-It, literally, something simple, like a Post-It on my door that just says, "Pick up my towel." He wrote it in his own handwriting, right, trying to facilitate him, like, solving his own problems, and now he has a much higher rate of picking up his towel. Like, I guess I could have said, "Every time you pick up your towel, you'll, I don't know, get a dollar," or whatever it is, but again, it makes me think, "I'm not building the generalizable skill (laughs) that way. I'm just kind of offering something at the end," which sets me on this kind of awful cycle that I think kind of misses the point.

7. 29:48 – 31:16

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. AHAndrew Huberman29:48

      I'd like to take a brief moment and thank one of our sponsors, and that's AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012. The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it every day, is that it ensures that I meet all of my quotas for vitamins and minerals, and it ensures that I get enough prebiotic and probiotic to support gut health. Now, gut health is something that, over the last 10 years, we realized is not just important for the health of our gut, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin. In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain functioning. Now, of course, I strive to consume healthy whole foods for the majority of my nutritional intake every single day. But there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients that are hard to get from whole foods, or at least in sufficient quantities. So AG1 allows me to get the vitamins and minerals that I need, probiotics, prebiotics, the adaptogens, and critical micronutrients. So anytime somebody asks me if they were to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, I'd tell them AG1, because AG1 supports so many different systems within the body that are involved in mental health, physical health and performance. To try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman and you'll get a year's supply of vitamin D3K2 and five free travel packs of AG1. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

8. 31:16 – 34:06

   Kids & Inherent Good

   1. AHAndrew Huberman31:16

      I love the idea that kids want purpose. Um, and I... Am I correct in wondering if that goes back to this am I real component of the am I real, am I safe?

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:27

      Yes.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman31:27

      Like, one way that we know we are real is our ability to impart change on the world around us. I don't want to get too abstract here, but, you know, as a neuroscientist I've often sat back and reflected, like, all the emotions we feel, like, no one sees that or knows that.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:42

      Exactly.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman31:42

      Unless we say something, we write something, we sing something, we shout something, you know, all the forms of expression. Just like none of our, um, our dreams, our creative, uh, insights or, or wishes, um, exist except inside us unless we transmute them into something in the real world. So, there does seem to be something about having this nervous system from a time we're really on, like, it- it's seeing our effect on the world that, that really makes us real, and on others. And, um, I love the idea that... Well, and I must say, I absolutely believe in my heart, and I just feel it as a feeling, that kids are inherently good inside. Like, I just... I can't imagine any other version of that, but does that mean that there are people out there who believe that kids are inherently bad or, or at least not good?

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:26

      I don't-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman32:26

      I mean, I mean, th- the... Like, how could that be? Uh, but then again, may- maybe I'm just naive. Uh...

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:31

      I don't know if anyone consciously believes that, but when I go back to that system I was first trained in, rewards and punishments, like, it feels like a system of behavioral control. And to me, like, I've always thought about control and trust as opposites. So, I only control what I don't trust. So, nobody said to me in that program, "By the way, Becky, everything you're learning here, we believe kids are bad inside, and so we do this thing." But, well, if I don't trust my kid and if I don't trust they inherently have the things in them to do good... By the way, that's not gonna happen naturally. That's why we have a big job as a parent to coach our kids (laughs) to bring that out, to set boundaries when they can't do it, and so many other things. But I don't believe anyone would say, "Yeah, it's 'cause they're bad inside." But there is a nature where you're constantly interacting with your kid from that other system, looking at them like, "I don't trust you. I don't trust you. And when you do bad things, I cannot hold on to the fact that you have a good identity. That's why I'm giving you a punishment. That's why I'm sending you away to your room." And so, if I'm reflecting back to you constantly that you are just your latest behavior, that I don't trust you, that I kind of have to bribe you to do very basic human things. Well, our kids form their identity from our reflection of them, and so then we're... This is what really compelled all this. (laughs) I'm like, we're raising generation after generation of kid kind of saying to them, like, "You're kind of a bad, untrustworthy kid." And then we wonder why we have such high rates of, like, massive mental health problems. Well, like, I- I... There's some linearity there.

9. 34:06 – 41:54

   Family Jobs, Validation & Confidence, Giving Hope

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:06

   2. AHAndrew Huberman34:06

      I'm curious about this notion of impingement. Uh, I've heard about this, um, you know, this idea that, you know, when we're young we're forging life deciding, you know, "Do I like the way this tastes or not tastes, you know?" By the way, I still hate anchovies. I don't need to be asked again to know the answer. But when you're young, you know, we're encouraged to do things like eat your broccoli, taste the anchovy, and some parents, it seems, are very comfortable with the idea of allowing their children to have their feelings and their wishes, their, their... As I always say, the nervous system seems to be divided into yum, yucks, and meh, mehs. I guess the plural would be mehs. Um, yum, yucks, and mehs. I... I mean, it's more complicated than that, but like with people where you're like, "Yeah, I really like them," or, "No, something's off there," or like, "Meh." You know? Um, so it's not that much more nuanced than that. The brain's got to make decisions afterward-

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:57

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman34:57

      ... after all. Excuse me. So, you know, kids have their yums, yucks, and mehs, and then we've got our, uh, our ideas about what they need to do in order to progress through life, often inherited from our parents and hopefully modified by the wonderful work that you're doing and writing about and in your, your program, um, that we're talking about here. But, you know, how much space should we allow for kids to be unimpinged? Like, like, "You don't want to eat p-... You don't want to eat what we're eating for dinner? Like, okay, I'm not gonna cook you an entire-"

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:31

      Yep.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman35:31

      "... new dinner, but then I guess, like, you might go to bed hungry." Sounds harsh, right? Um, but the other version is, "Okay, what would you like for dinner?" "Well, I prefer..." Let's say they pick a healthy option. They prefer pasta, not chicken. Okay, we won't do the ice cream, chicken-

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:49

      Sure.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman35:49

      ... you know, uh, thing. Um-... do we do it, right? Like how much impingement. I don't want to watch a movie with the family. I want to play in my room. You know, at some level, you know, I've heard it both ways, that impingement is needed for safety and life progression, but there's times when it- it's, uh, it's more subtle than that. It's not about safety and life progression. It's not about going to school or not going to school, homework or no homework. It's about, like, do you want to come with us to the park or do you want to play at home in your room?

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:17

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman36:17

       How often should we impinge? Um, how do we know? Um, this is, this is kind of the- the tricky, the tricky areas of parenting that I think, um, because it doesn't fall into the extremes.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:30

       Yeah. I love this question. That's a word I don't often hear actually. What ... Impingement, like can you ac- like what, like-

   12. AHAndrew Huberman36:37

       Like impinging on-

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:38

       ... definition wise, like-

   14. AHAndrew Huberman36:39

       Yeah, like impinging on the child's in, um, in-

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:41

       What they want?

   16. AHAndrew Huberman36:41

       ... inherent natural desires or aversion to things.

   17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:45

       Got it.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman36:46

       Right?

   19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:46

       Okay.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman36:46

       Like, like you say, "Hey, we're going over to so-and-so's house," and they say, "You know, I- I don't like their kids."

   21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:51

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman36:51

       And you go, "Listen, you gotta learn to play with other kids." They go-

   23. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:53

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman36:53

       ... "No, I don't like their kids."

   25. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:54

       Yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman36:54

       And you say, "Did something happen?" And so we're not talking about a dangerous situation.

   27. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:57

       Yep.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman36:57

       But like, "No, I don't like them. I- I just really want to just stay home."

   29. BKDr. Becky Kennedy37:01

       Yeah. This is a great-

   30. AHAndrew Huberman37:02

       And yeah. The- the... So are we gonna impinge on their... I mean, 'cause we're teaching them, either way we're teaching them something.
10. 41:54 – 44:48

    Rewards, Pride

    1. AHAndrew Huberman41:54

       Amazing. Are, are you adopting children, by the way?

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:56

       I I-

    3. AHAndrew Huberman41:56

       'Cause I'm, I'm ... I actually fi- I finished college.

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:59

       (laughs)

    5. AHAndrew Huberman42:00

       And I actually, actually sh- I, I ride with-

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:01

       You, I consider, Andrew.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman42:03

       Okay, all right. Thanks. (laughs)

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:03

       You. Adult children.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman42:04

       (laughs) Uh, what I'm hearing is don't dictate their behavior with, uh ... And I'm gonna underline in bold dictate. Don't dictate their behavior, "You're going to do this because I said so."

    10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:16

        Yes.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman42:16

        That's dictatorship. But at the same time, don't quash the emotion behind the resistance. Kind of acknowledge it. Make them feel real. Um, "I believe you."

    12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:28

        Yes.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman42:28

        I l- I love this phrase. Amazing. And I love your definition of confidence. If people didn't hear that, we're definitely going to repeat it again, and we're gonna, we're gonna etch it into your neural circuitry, 'cause I love that. It's, it's, it's a self-trust.

    14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:41

        Yes.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman42:43

        And this notion of giving hope. You're giving them a- an incentive that's based on a reward that's actually good for them that they can translate to other situations as well. Uh, wow. Um, so much there.

    16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:57

        Can I double-click on reward?

    17. AHAndrew Huberman42:59

        Please.

    18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:59

        Because you know what it made me think? I didn't think until you said that. Like, I think in a situation where you'd be tempted to say, like, "And if you go and you're polite, I'll give you 20 extra minutes of Roblox," right? That's like ... And, uh, like, uh, first of all, let me just say something. Like, whatever I say to you, like, for listeners, like, it's not like I do this stuff all the time (laughs) with my actual kids. I'm the first one sometimes to be like, "Here's your thing I have to dangle," you know?

    19. AHAndrew Huberman43:20

        We'll provide a little section in the comments section on YouTube where your kids can ... No, I'm just kidding.

    20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy43:24

        Yeah, exactly.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman43:25

        Your kids are forbidden ... No. Oh, wait. That's, wait, that's dictating.

    22. BKDr. Becky Kennedy43:28

        (laughs)

    23. AHAndrew Huberman43:28

        We understand why you ... I believe that you would want to comment. Um, but-

    24. BKDr. Becky Kennedy43:32

        (laughs)

    25. AHAndrew Huberman43:32

        But we're gonna trust, uh, we're gonna let you know why it's, uh, it's good for you if you don't. Anyway.

    26. BKDr. Becky Kennedy43:36

        Exactly.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman43:36

        I'll practice this on someone else's kids someday.

    28. BKDr. Becky Kennedy43:37

        But the reward, like ... The re- (sighs) when your kid ends up seeing themself capable of doing something they didn't previously think they could do, th- I, you know better than me. Like, I feel like that is, like, one of the best rewards, even if it's getting through a social situation or ... I think about this a lot with, you know, my little kid is, I don't know, like struggling with a puzzle or something, and I could just do it for them, or if I help them kind of regulate, "Oh, this is a hard puzzle, and you can take a break. I, I just know you're going to figure it out today. I just know it," and then because of that, they get there. That feels in your body like that is the best kind of reward, and it's the type of reward that works for kids in adulthood. When they're in a job, we want them to be motivated by the feeling they're going to have of pride, not be saying, "Hey, I finished my thing early. Do I get a bonus," to their boss. Like, that's, that's not gonna play out as well.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman44:35

        I love it. I, um, I'm just pausing and shaking my head only 'cause I love it so much, um, and I just want to make sure that I don't quickly move to the next question without drilling down even deeper into-

    30. BKDr. Becky Kennedy44:45

        Yeah.
11. 44:48 – 52:15

    Tool: “I Believe You”, Confidence & Safety; Other Relationships

    1. AHAndrew Huberman44:48

       "I believe you," as the feedback, uh, or response that can instill real confidence over time. Um, not to get too nuanced here, but how is it different, because I, I sense it is different, than "I hear you"?

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy45:04

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman45:05

       "I hear you, but-" (laughs)

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy45:07

       Yes.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman45:07

       "... you're gonna do this anyway."

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy45:08

       Yes.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman45:09

       Or, "I hear you, but listen. In this family," da-da-da-da-da.

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy45:13

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman45:13

       Um, "I believe you." The, the word believe is powerful, and I believe there's real power in, in specific words as is, you know, like for instance, sturdiness. Again, such a, such a powerful and underused word. "I believe you."

    10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy45:24

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman45:25

        Um, what do you ... You're a psychologist. What, what, what do you think we're hearing when somebody says, "I believe you" that's different than "I hear you"?

    12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy45:34

        I haven't listed these out, but I think we all have these, like, core needs as humans, and I think being believed is one of them, because it's, it's someone else kind of saying, uh, like, "You're real." That's what ... "I, I might not feel what you're feeling, but that thing that feels strong to you that nobody can see or measure is real." And when I think about the most confident people, like, I think about this girl who I went to Duke with, and she was just brilliant. Like, so smart. And we were in this seminar, and it was one of these small classes where this professor was, like, talking about stuff, and, like, I, for once, I was like, "I have no idea what this person's talking about," but, like, I was like ... No one else was stopping, and this girl raised her hand, and she said, "I'm sorry if everyone else, this is annoying. Like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like, is there any ... 'Cause I usually do, and, like, is there any way you could say that in a different way?" That is, like, to me, the utmost version of confidence, that she believed her own experience of confusion was real confusion. She didn't think it was a sign she was stupid. She, she believed it. She believed herself. That is so confident, and I think when someone says, "I hear you," they're, they're, they ... It's like a version of listening. There's many worse phrases. No damage is done. When we follow anything but "but," we tend to invalidate, so that's not good anyway. "I believe you, but" is also not gonna ... But there's a million examples of this, to me, that build confidence, and I actually think there's so many situations with kids where they say situations, and we worry, "Oh, they have low confidence," and then we intervene to, quote, "make them feel better," which actually is the thing that lowers their confidence 'cause it's like we say to them, "I don't believe you. You're not really feeling the way (laughs) you feel." Where "I believe you" is the exact opposite. So, like, I, I like to give examples, just 'cause it makes it concrete. Like, my kid will come home and say, um, I don't know, um, "I was picked last for, you know, for dodgeball today. I was picked last," and something, and, and they're, they're clearly very, very sad, right? And we want to say to them, like, "It's no big deal," or, "Everyone's picked last sometimes," or, "But remember yesterday you told me you were picked first for basketball?" And we think, like, "I need to build up my kid's confidence." Those are confidence...... I don't want to say destroying, that's too ... reducing interventions. 'Cause a kid is kind of coming to a parent basically saying, "I'm up, very, very upset that I was picked last," and we're saying to a kid, "No, you weren't." And they're like, "But I am." And what they learn is, and this is really terrifying to me, (laughs) is other people are better feelers of my feelings than I am. And that has, like, a million really scary interpersonal, I think, relationship, you know, kind of consequences later down, l- later down in life. But when a kid says, you know, "I was picked last and nobody even wants me and they all think I'm the worst athlete," whatever kids say, to sit and say some version of like, "I'm so glad we're talking about this, and I could tell that was a really hard gym class. And sweetie," like, "I, I believe you." You will watch your kid, it is crazy to me what parents tell me happen when they say those words to their kids. They're like, "It also just, like, literally diffused everything," and they were, like, ready to move on. Like, they are just trying to tell you probably, like, "I was feeling something. It was a lot. It was confusing," right? Our feelings are always hardest when we're alone in them, so, "I was alone in it, and I bring it to you." When someone says, "I believe you," not only are they giving you that core need, they're also just like, they're, like, sitting down with you in it. And that's, that makes everything better. And then meanwhile, what a kid feels like when we say I believe you to a hard experience or hard feeling is, they're like, "The feelings that overwhelm me don't overwhelm my parents. They can tolerate it. They're not scared of me-"

    13. AHAndrew Huberman49:29

        Mm.

    14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy49:29

        "... kind of being a loser in gym class one day. And if my parent likes me when I have that feeling, like, I can start to like myself when I have that feeling."

    15. AHAndrew Huberman49:40

        It's so great, because it sounds like it accomplishes both things. It makes kids feel real and safe.

    16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy49:48

        Yes.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman49:50

        Real and safe. And, you know, I can't help but ask, say, because, you know, how we started off today was that this isn't just about parent-child relationships, but in friendships, in romantic relationships-

    18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy50:05

        Yes.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman50:05

        ... in coworker relationships, that the words, "I believe you," I have to presume, based on everything I'm hearing now and feeling inside about it, that it's equally effective.

    20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy50:17

        Huge. You know, years ago, I was on, like, a podcast early on, and to me, there are these three lines that kind of all go together when kids or anyone's upset. And it's kind of like you start, and to me, it's, like, a beautiful invitation to have that conversation, just to say to someone, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this," right? And then kind of, "I believe you. Tell me more." And my husband, that, when he heard it was like, "You know, you could, like, say those words to me sometimes. Like, I would like that," because ... And I think about the workplace too. Like, you have someone come in, they're upset about, "I don't know, I got staffed on this," or, "I'm not getting a promotion, and I, I thought I was." Like, just diffuse it with just, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this." "Yeah, I've been working nonstop for ..." And just, if you say to them, like, "I, I believe you." 'Cause we usually don't say to someone, "I don't believe you." But what we'll say is we, we defend ourselves in that moment. And the way the other person receives it is as if we're saying, "I don't believe the intensity of the experience you're having." And when you do lead with, "I believe you," same thing in a partnership, you know, like, "Every time I ask you to do something, you get really hot and bothered." Like, it doesn't even mean you agree. You're kind of just believing, "I," like, "I b- like, I believe you." Like, tell me more. Right? "I believe you that that really upset you." And, like, I'm obviously ... I have a whole nother story in my head, but, like, I hear what you're saying, and, and I know there's something there, and I believe it enough to, like, be open to hearing more about it. I don't know. That's, like, what's best. That's what, that's what we all want in our, in our (laughs) partnerships.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman51:44

        Right. I mean, I'm wide-eyed. I mean, what a beautiful acknowledgement that, as you pointed out, is not agreeing to accept someone else's reality to the extent that you're going to dismantle the, the, you know, the order of the world as, whatever it is.

    22. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:00

        Right.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman52:00

        But it's such an opening as opposed to a closing.

    24. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:03

        Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman52:03

        And as you said, it's non-defended, but it's also boundaried.

    26. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:06

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman52:07

        I mean, there's just so many things about it that feel good, um, seem good, and, and clearly are

12. 52:15 – 57:07

    Trauma, Aloneness & Repair

    1. AHAndrew Huberman52:15

       good. You know, I don't want to go down the, the, um, tragic rabbit hole of trauma, but, um-

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:21

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman52:21

       ... previous guests on this podcast, um, you know, has defined, we should probably define trauma just because it gets thrown around a lot. Trauma, an event or set of circumstances, um, that fundamentally change the way that the brain and nervous system work so that there's a maladaptive response going forward.

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:38

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman52:38

       It's not every bad thing that happens.

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:39

       Sure.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman52:40

       But there are microtraumas, sometimes called small T-

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:42

       Sure.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman52:43

       ... or macrotraumas, big T. Again, could be multi-event or single event. But years ago, a different psychologist, psychiatrist, who's an adolescent, um, psychiatrist at Stanford, said something, uh, in a seminar that just really struck me, which was that at, at its core, trauma is really about confusion over who's responsible. Um, and, and here we're not just talking about the, the more salient examples of, like, sexual assault, uh, th- those too, uh, s-, um, of course. But, you know, like, if s- if we get screamed at, um, or we observe something, like third-person trauma, like, w- the, the logical stance is, "Well, okay, that was them, not me." But when this happens, especially when we're young, the nervous system, the brain some- somehow interprets this as, like, "I was there. I had a role in it just by being there. So, like, what was my role?" And somehow, the emotional response becomes one of responsibility-

    10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:38

        Yes.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman53:38

        ... even if we know, like, they're clearly the one that initiated this. And so, um, uh, the reason I'm bringing this up in this context is that it's almost like that lack of belief in self somehow gets rooted in, and then the, it all feels confusing, and then we don't feel safe.

    12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:54

        That's right.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman53:54

        Because it's a confusion about responsibility. Again, going back to this, um, these words.

    14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:58

        Can we go down that rabbit hole for a second?

    15. AHAndrew Huberman54:00

        Please, please.

    16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy54:01

        Okay, because-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman54:01

        That's why I raised it. I, I-

    18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy54:02

        ... I think that, to me-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman54:03

        I want your thoughts, not mine.

    20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy54:03

        ... I always think trauma is actually not events.... it's the way an event gets processed. And I, I love Gabor Mate's definition of trauma. "It's not what happens to you, it's what happens inside of you." Right? So to me, there's an inherent relationality there, where events that get proces- not any event. Events with high emotionality, let's say, that get processed in aloneness become traumatic. And I think that's where it gets linked to responsibility, so this is actually what my TED Talk was about, and why repair is so important. Um, who said this? Ronald Fairbairn, years ago. That for kids, it is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. I think that explains almost everything about child development right there, going back to goodness also. Your parent just screamed at you, and by the way, your parent ... I scream at my kids. Everyone's going to scream at their kids. It's going to happen. Okay? That's just the event. The event's not going to have the impact. What is happening for a kid? Well, we know kids are oriented by attachment. They literally need us to survive. Like, they could not survive on their own. And so what do you do when the person you're dependent on for safety becomes the source of danger and threat? That's very confusing for a child in that moment. So they're super hyper-aroused. They're in this state of, you know, terror, and then usually after in my house, too, I just yell at my kid. They're kind of alone in their room. I'm alone in the kitchen or wherever, meanwhile spinning, 'cause I'm like, "I'm such a bad parent." Like, I'm pro- you know, but meanwhile because I'm so lost in my own guilt, I might not be going to my kid. And so what happens for my kid if I don't repair after I scream at them or one of these events, right? Well, a kid cannot say to themselves, "My parent just had a bad day." Then the badness is in my parent. My leader ... I'm s- I'm young now, right? Like, I don't understand nuance. My leader can't be bad, so I must take on the badness. At least then I have control. So kids, after they're kind of yelled at, in the absence of repair, they w- they really only have two options for how to regulate and feel safe again. They can self-blame, "It's all my fault," which is why I feel like most adults, when they have a hard time, they tell themselves, like, "It's my fault. I'm not good enough." It's like, the legacy of that story from childhood, or they use self-doubt. "Maybe that didn't happen. Maybe I overreacted. Maybe I can't trust myself." Again, it leads to adults who basically say, like, "Did I overreact?" or "Let me call five friends. Let me see if they think what my boyfriend did was a big deal," 'cause they can't trust themselves. And so trama- trauma, what I want every parent to know is they'll say, "I left my kid alone and I didn't pick them up at the soccer field. Is that going to traumatize them?" And I'll say, "Well, that's just the event." Like, did you say to them, "Hey, that probably felt scary? What was that like?" "Ugh, you're right." Like, "You were alone." Now all of a sudden, next to the event that was scary is my story, and my connection, it got processed in a safe connection. It didn't get processed in aloneness. And that's, that's a massive, massive difference.

13. 57:07 – 1:01:04

    Tool: Repair & Apologies, Rejecting Apology

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy57:07

    2. AHAndrew Huberman57:07

       In the scenario you are describing, the parent who yelled goes to the child. Uh, s- having been that child, um, and perhaps also having (laughs) been that parent-

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy57:18

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman57:19

       ... um, how do we deal with the fact that sometimes, you know, w- we don't want to be around the person that yelled at us? It hur- it hurts to receive the care. The, or there's a, there's a, there's a, like a textured landscape as opposed to (laughs) a smooth landscape there. Like ...

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy57:35

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman57:35

       Like, "Okay, now you're ready for everything to be peaceful. I'm still with my feelings." I guess that's where the, "I believe you," comes in, and that's where the sorting it through process begins. Is that right?

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy57:45

       Yeah, well I think it's like, what version of a parent comes back? To me, the m- the first thing we have to do in a repair process is actually repair with ourselves as a parent. Really. (laughs) because if you haven't repaired with yourself, which to me, is kind of separating your identity again from your behavior. Like, okay, Becky, I'll use myself as an example. I'm a good parent who just screamed at her son. Like, I did not mess up forever, and you see when you try to repair with yourself, those two things get collapsed. I'm like, "I messed him up forever. I'm a monster." Wait, like, I'm a good parent who did something I'm not proud of. You can't repair with someone until you've repaired with yourself. They feel it from you. They actually ... It usually is like then you're asking for them. I'll be like, "It's okay, right?" Like, "You forgive me, right?" (laughs) That's not a repair. That's like using your child to try to do something we just have to do on our own or with other adults. But if I've repaired with myself, I'm going to show up in a different way. Might I have a feisty kid? I might. It's like, "I don't care. It's not better." That's okay. I'm not repairing to get something for my child. I'm repairing to give an experience to them. So we can also get creative, you know? Your kid is older. You text them. You slip a door under the note. You say, "Okay, I just have to say this one thing." To me, this line really matters to like snatch that self-blame out of a kid's body is just like, "I'm sorry I yelled. It is, it's never your fault when I yell." And it's not. And people who argue, like, our ability to regulate our emotions predated our child's existence. Like that, you know, like they had an, they had something, they did something, and we felt frustrated. But that's very different than yelling, right? (laughs) And saying that to your kid is so important. Meanwhile, the next day, you might say, "By the way, let's really figure out how to get out the door in a smoother way." You know, you could work on whatever they need to work on, but the reason I think most kids end up rejecting parents' apologies is, it's not really a repair. We're asking our kid for permission to be okay again, or a repair sounds like, "Hey, I'm sorry I yelled, but you know, like, if you just got ready on time, that wouldn't have happened." (laughs) Or we say, "I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm sorry you felt that way." Those are not, like none of those are actually repairs, and if that's what a kid's been used to, they're going to keep a parent more at bay.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman59:59

       So is it safe to say that we can always come back to making the kid feel real and safe? "I believe you" is a great place to start, and the reason I keep coming back to these-

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:00:10

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:10

        ... these simple things is that ... Simple but very, very potent, by the way, um ...... is that in the real world landscape of parenting-

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:00:18

        Yes.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:18

        ... family and life, things are happening really fast and it's very dynamic and it's multifaceted. I mean, we haven't even talked yet about how when there's two parents, like the one that didn't yell, um, when there's multiple siblings, when, I mean there's, you know, human dynamics on a one in the, in an other, other landscape is, is hard enough. And then when you start introducing the real world landscape, um, things happen fast. So having something that people can reach to really quickly-

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:00:45

        Totally.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:45

        ... what I call in the landscape of stress modulation, which is something that I'm more familiar with from my labs work is, you know, real time tools.

    15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:00:52

        Yep.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:52

        Real time tools. Like, we're all at our best after meditation, vacation, massage and a good night's sleep. But what about real time tools when everything's (laughs) -

    17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:00

        Yep.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:01

        ... everything's hectic. Um, so

14. 1:01:04 – 1:03:35

    Tool: Good Apologies

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:04

       w- what does a really good apology look like in the real world?

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:10

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:11

       Um, because a really good apology in the ideal world of, uh, Instagram, um, (laughs) is, "Yeah, I believe you. I'm so sorry," with no buts, no this and that. But a real apology sometimes is as you're boarding a plane or when there's a bunch of other things that are going on and you haven't even dealt with those yet, or when you're on your way to an event or you, you-

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:34

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:35

       Okay, so you get it. Uh, what does a really good internal landscape for apology look like? Like, how can we touch into where we need to be?

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:43

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:44

       And then what are the words that even if we have to try again later and again and again later with that person, in this case kid, but person more generally, um, what's the, like, go-to solid apology?

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:56

       Right. So yeah, I think you are never gonna go wrong saying, "I believe you," to your kid. Like, obviously not if you say it randomly, but if they're really upset, "You yelled at me," (laughs) say, "I believe you." Like, if that's all you can remember, you're crushing it. I think a realistic repair, you have to do something for yourself. And like, to me it can be a very simple mantra. Like, to me, "I'm a good parent who is having a hard time," is the one I use honestly, over and over just, and after I yell at my kid before I'll like go to the bathroom sometimes and I'll say that to myself, "Becky, like, I'm a good parent having a hard time." And I'll kind of say it as many times as I need until I really do feel something like shift a little in my body. It just, 'cause again, I think that phrase separates what I did from who I am, right? And then to me, a realistic apology, it could be super simple. If you remember nothing else could just be like, "I'm sorry I yelled." That's, that's great. If you wanna, if you're like, "I'm feeling it, Becky, give me that next step." Um, you know? (laughs) "I'm sorry I yelled. Just like you, I'm working on managing my emotions and, you know, next time even when I'm frustrated, I'm gonna try to stay calm." Something about the next time, you know, if you wanna throw in that it's not your fault. Kids, it seems an odd thing because parents are like, "Why? Do kids assume it's their fault?" It is their default position. And so it's never a bad thing to throw in, but honestly just simply, "Hey, I'm sorry I yelled," that actually gives them that realness because without saying anything more you're saying, "That thing you think happened did happen." (laughs) So that's powerful.

15. 1:03:35 – 1:04:37

    Sponsor: InsideTracker

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:03:36

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:36

       I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor InsideTracker. InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals. Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test. Now, a major problem with a lot of blood tests out there, however, is that you get information back about metabolic factors, lipids and hormones and so forth, but you don't know what to do with that information. With InsideTracker they make it very easy because they have a personalized platform that allows you to see the levels of all those things, metabolic factors, lipids, hormones, et cetera, but it gives you specific directives that you can follow that relate to nutrition, behavioral modifications, supplements, et cetera, that can help you bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for you. If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans. Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.

16. 1:04:37 – 1:12:32

    Tool: Rudeness & Disrespect, Most Generous Interpretation

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:37

       How do you suggest parents deal with, um, retorts and rudeness? And again, let's, um, extend this to all relationships.

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:04:46

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:46

       So you get in your best mindset, uh, and by the way, I love this "I am" thing. Um, two of the most important words in any language, um, when translated to other languages, "I am blank. I am a good this," or, "I am a," whatever. Role identity is key to the brain. Um, we know this. Um, you go in and you say, "I'm really sorry. I struggle to regulate my emotions."

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:14

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:16

       "I believe that you're really upset."

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:19

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:19

       And the kid says, "I hate you."

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:22

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:23

       Now earlier you said that good boundaries are about not expecting a change in behavior from someone else, they're about our own boundaries. So, um, or maybe the "I hate you" comes from, you know, "Listen, we're, we're not gonna go to so-and-so's house for a play date today."

    10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:38

        Great example.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:38

        You know?

    12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:39

        "I hate you," yeah, mm-hmm.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:40

        "I hate you."

    14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:41

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:41

        Um, so is there ever a case for no response?

    16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:46

        I mean, to me the most underutilized parenting strategy is doing nothing. Literally it's one of my most used strategies 'cause, and there's, there's, there's like really good reason for it, especially in this situation. So I always, to me, like I always say, we have to understand before we intervene. So I know every parent's like, "What do you do in that situation?" But it's like trying, like it's like trying to fix someone's tennis swing before you like look at their tennis swing, right? Like what, there could be a lot of problems. So again, why is a kid saying, "I hate you"? And I would ask every parent to just keep this in mind, it's a tool, and you can't use it in real time.Eventually you can, but we have to say it at, like, the end of a night. When my kid said, "I hate you," what is my most generous interpretation of why he would say that to me? And if you're like any human, me included by the way, like, your least generous interpretation is immediate. You're like, "Because he's a sociopath." Like, that's what we say all the time. We're like, "Wow." Or because he's, like, a horrible kid, 'cause he's spoiled, 'cause he's nasty, it comes easily. So that's fine, but what is my most generous interpretation? And when I don't know, I'll push myself to say, "Okay, well..." Like, I was in a situation with my husband. What would lead me to say that? I don't know. What would lead you to say that to someone?

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:00

        That I hate them?

    18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:01

        Yeah. Like, they, like, say something to you like, "Hey, Andrew, we're not going to be able to, you know, do this dinner."

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:06

        It, it would have to be some sort of deep betrayal of trust, and, and when I... and I have to acknowledge that if I said that to somebody that I really care about or love, as I'm saying, "I hate you," what I'm really saying is, "I love you so much and that s- hurts unbelievably, at- at such an unbelievable intensity that what's coming out of my mouth is 'I hate you.'" Because if you, because if you didn't love them...

    20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:28

        That's right.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:29

        ... it would have null effect.

    22. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:30

        I think-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:30

        It would be a meh. It would be, it would be a, it would be a meh, but instead it's a, ugh. It hurts. So y- we... somehow there's a neural circuit in there that goes, you know, I, whatever, insert expletive, hate you.

    24. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:44

        That's right.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:44

        But what you're really saying is, "I love you so much."

    26. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:47

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:48

        And as a consequence, that thing you did or said hurts so much.

    28. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:52

        That's right. And so I think that's, like, exactly what's going on for a kid. (laughs) Or, like, to me, my most generous interpretation, in a simple way, is my kid, when I said we couldn't go to this friend's house that he thought we were going to, his friend who was going to sleep over, he had, like, so built it up in his mind. He'd like... probably like kids do, like, they have this whole image, "Oh, and then we're going to do this and this," and, like, the letdown was so intense and, again, I go back to kids have all the feelings we have and they're born with none of the skills. So it takes a lot of s- it takes, like, a pretty well-develop skilled to be really disappointed by the way and surprised, right? In the moment. And, like, manage it in, like, a mature way. I- I- I'm sure we both know adults who aren't really capable of doing that, right? So the fact that my seven-year-old is doing that. So if I think about it that way, we latch on to our kids' words as if they're the truth. They're not the truth. It's not to say they don't matter, but they're not the truth. The truth is whatever world is under the words, like, "I'm disappointed and I don't know how to manage that." So if I think about the outcome, like what would, w- where do I want to be? What I would love in that situation... 'cause the truth is, when I say to my kid, "Sorry, we can't go to Bobby's house," I wouldn't even want... it's not normal for my kid to be like, "Oh, no problem." Because, like, I would... I'm just picturing my 25-year-old, like, trying to get a job and being like, "Mom, oh, I didn't get it," and then he's like, "No problem." I'm like, "That's kind of weird." Like, really? Like, that's weird. Like, I'd want you to be disappointed. And so what I want my kid to be able to do is to be like... I don't know. What's the best it gets? Like, "Oh, man, I was really looking forward to that." That's, like, ultimate maturity. So how do I get from "I hate you" to "Oh, man, I was really, like, you know, looking forward to that"? The whole... all the things we want to do just, like, don't even make sense. Like, sending my kid to their room saying, like, "You're such a nasty kid. I've never seen any of your friends say that to their parents." And I'm good at acting these things out 'cause, of course, I say these things too. But all I'm doing is basically telling my kid the version of themselves I don't want them to be, so now I'm further away from that outcome. Just not effective. My kid obviously literally needs to learn some of those skills and practice them. We don't think about simulations with kids nearly enough. We know that in sports. People practice all the time. We don't do that with emotion regulation, so what do I do in the moment? I think the best question here is, what do I do outside the moment to help my kid build the skills so they actually have more of a skill the next time that moment comes? Still, I'm a pragmatist. What do I do in the moment? "I hate you." I probably would do nothing first. When someone is rude to you and they say something nasty... I don't know, I just... like, this is one... this is my son, this is me. My son just hurled, "I hate you." It's, like, sitting between us. When we say back to them, like, you know, "I hate you!" or, like, "Go to your room!" we take all the energy from what they said and we just, like, throw it, and then, like, we have this ping pong match. When you do nothing, I always picture if this is like the "I hate you," it just sits between us. My kid has a much higher chance of kind of re-owning what they just said because I'm just kind of sturdy in that moment because I didn't just take it from them and say something to them which just gives them the opportunity to, like, take what I said and have no responsibility for the first thing they said. It's always true in adults. When someone says to you, like, something nasty, if you actually just stay there, they're kind of like, "Oh, shoot. Like, I shouldn't have said that." Because, like, it's, it's right there, so I'd probably say nothing. Now, a couple... N- I don't know if I'd really do that, but I'd want to do that. Let me be clear. Something else you can say in that moment, which takes a lot of presence so it's not going to happen right away, is just something like, "Whoa. Like, clearly you're disappointed. I get that. I believe you and I know there's another way you can say that to me." That's actually right back to family jobs. (laughs) I'm validating and I'm setting kind of a boundary in some ways, like, I know maybe there's a hope there too, like, I know there's another way. If my kid keeps saying, "I hate you, I hate you. You're the worst, you're the worst," I'm going to say, "Listen, I love you. You're a good kid. You're having a hard time. I, I really won't stay in your room while you keep saying this to me and part of that is 'cause it's not good for you either. Like, this isn't a good dynamic. I'm going to step outside. I'm going to come back and we can talk about it when we're both in a place where we can be a little more respectful," or something like that, right? You don't have to be a punching bag, but at least now I'm helping my kid see that he is having a feeling under these words. If I can't differentiate the feeling from the behavior, how can I expect my kid to ever learn to differentiate those two? Which is how my kid can actually get to a more regulated place.

17. 1:12:32 – 1:20:49

    Walking on Eggshells, Pilot Analogy & Emotional Outbursts, Sturdy Leadership

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:12:32

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:32

       I've sometimes wondered whether or not parents are either afraid of...... or not afraid enough of their kids. (laughs)

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:12:41

       Mm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:42

       Um, I, I've known some parents that are afraid of their kids because a- and perhaps as a consequence, who knows what the chicken egg, uh, is there. All we know is the parent was alive first. The kids learn to control their parents through not necessarily emotional outbursts, but the threat-

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:13:01

       Yes.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:01

       ... of emotional outbursts. I've seen this again and again, and it's, it's a pretty wild thing to observe. Um, and of course, as an observer, it's far easier than when you're in it. But this idea like, whoa, like they're like a pot ready to boi- boil over, uh, pop, um, you know, like they're gonna pop. Um, and I've seen this in teachers in the classroom. I've seen this in so many venues where whether or not the child understands that they're somehow controlling the situation or not, that there's just an inherent fear of what could happen.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:13:38

       Yep.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:38

       And then I think kids feel a certain power, but they don't feel safe, right? I mean, how could they, right? They're children.

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:13:45

       Yes.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:45

        Um, so for the parents out there that are afraid of their kids' potential responses and/or how bad their kid, quote unquote, might turn out if they were to really lay down the law, here I'm using kind of old school language.

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:14:00

        (laughs)

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:00

        But I, listen, I grew up, you know-

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:14:01

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:01

        ... I'm 48 years old, so, and you know, I, yeah, I mean, my parents w- you know, didn't physically abuse us, but there might have been a spanking every once in a while or n- I, I don't know what the rule is nowadays or the, or the, the, uh, standard out there, you know? I think, I won't say which, but I might have taken a smack here or there, but not many. Um, and it, there was also a lot of love. Um, but clearly, um... And here, I'm not, um, not (laughs) supporting the use of corporal punishment. I wanna be very clear. Um, but you know-

Episode duration: 2:54:01