Huberman LabRaising a Dog & Mastering Calm Assertive Energy | Cesar Millan
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,005 words- 0:00 – 3:54
Cesar Millan
- CMCesar Millan
I'm not saying not to give affection. I'm just saying give affection to patience and calmness and open mind, right? 'Cause when you, when your dog misbehave, you want him to go back there. Go back to your good state of mind, right? You don't want the dog to do fight, flight, avoidance. Those are the bad state of mind. The good state of mind is patience, calm, surrender, or happy-go-lucky. Those are good state of mind.
- AHAndrew Huberman
[Instrumental music] Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Cesar Millan, better known as The Dog Whisperer, and the preeminent dog trainer in the world. Today's episode is truly for everyone, not just dog owners. You're going to learn a lot about human psychology and behavior, and it will help you better interact with other humans in every type of relationship. For instance, you will learn a simple tool that allows you to move through the world with a clear, calm state of mind that will allow you to interact with others more effectively, to listen and act with more clarity and intention. And not incidentally, that clear, calm state of mind is also what dogs respond to best and what makes them feel safe and healthy. Today we talk about the critical importance about understanding dog biology and psychology, and the fact that they are pack animals, and that we have to remove our human sense about these animals as our pets, and of course they are our pets and they're extremely cute. They are family members. But understand the hardwired aspects of their brain and biology that allow us to be the best leaders for them. I have to warn you, a lot of what you hear today may sound counterintuitive at first. Until you understand the biology of dogs and the fact that they respond to people's energy and actions, not words. I know they can listen to commands, they can learn words and commands, but they're responding to the energy and the actions associated with those commands. Only then can you be the most effective dog owner, and by effective I mean making your dog as healthy and feeling safe as possible. I should point out that one of the reasons I'm so excited Cesar came on this podcast is that I had an amazingly positive experience with his methods years ago when I got my first puppy, Costello, who was a bulldog mastiff. I read his book, Be the Pack Leader, and the principles within that book were critical for developing an incredible relationship with Costello, who lived 11 years. You could bring him into any environment. I would bring him to class. I would bring him into different people's homes. I could take him essentially anywhere. He loved kids, he loved people, and he was extremely well-behaved. Exceedingly lazy, too, but exceedingly well-behaved, and I credit that to the methods that I learned from Cesar's book. So if you have a dog or you're considering getting a dog, or you want to better understand how to regulate your energy and behavior in all types of interactions, with dogs, with cats, and with other humans, today's episode will teach you those extremely valuable tools. And I'm extremely pleased to announce the newest member of the Huberman Lab Podcast team, Strummer. He's also a bulldog mastiff mutt. He's similar to Costello in breed, but I should say not a pure English bulldog. So not a lot of snoring and the other stuff that go along with English bulldogs. I love the English bulldog breed, but when they're mutted with other breeds like this one, they breathe a lot easier, and he's just the sweetest thing. So you'll be seeing, and perhaps hearing, more from Strummer. I am applying all of Cesar's methods to training Strummer. You can see he's a very calm, relaxed dog. He gets two walks a day, and a bunch of other things you'll learn about during today's episode that will benefit you if you have or you're thinking about getting a dog. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Cesar Millan. Cesar Millan.
- 3:54 – 6:31
Animal Instincts & Human Energy
- CMCesar Millan
Yes, sir.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Welcome. I'm a huge fan.
- CMCesar Millan
Thank you.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Your book-
- CMCesar Millan
Same here.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Thank you.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Thank you. I'm honored to hear that. I, but I will say, your book, Be the Pack Leader.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I read the hard copy-
- CMCesar Millan
[laughs] Thank you
- AHAndrew Huberman
... to raise my first puppy. We never had a dog in my home growing up.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
To raise Costello.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Bulldog mix, stubborn dog. We went 11 years together, he and I, and that book and your other teachings were tremendously impactful for my relationship with him.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But also in my work life, in my entire life. We're gonna talk about some of the themes from that book and beyond today.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But I just wanna extend my gratitude.
- CMCesar Millan
Thank you.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's, it's a true honor and pleasure to have you here.
- CMCesar Millan
That's very kind.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. In, uh, modern parlance they say you're the man.
- CMCesar Millan
Ah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, you're the man.
- CMCesar Millan
The pack leader. [laughs]
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's right. Many, many people want dogs, have dogs.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Have these concepts of dogs-
- 6:31 – 16:48
Spirit, Sending Energy, Tool: Silence, Calm & Confident
- CMCesar Millan
mind.
- AHAndrew Huberman
For many people, especially in the United States, they're not familiar with feeling energy and exchanging energy with a, a dog.
- CMCesar Millan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'll give an example of when Costello, my previous bulldog-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... some probably bulldog mastiff, who knows what he was.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, whatever breed.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But some... Whatever he was, he was Costello. But I learned something very important from you. Before he's Costello, he's an animal.
- CMCesar Millan
That's right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Spirit.
- CMCesar Millan
Ah, spirit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Animal, sp- specie.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Breed, name. See? So the last thing they are is the breed and the name.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
So when I rehabilitate a dog, what I'm doing is bringing back the happy spirit, bringing back the healthy instinct, and bringing back the rules, boundaries, limitations mind, 'cause that's what makes them well-behaved, when they understand rules, boundaries, and limitations, no matter what breed they are.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
So it really doesn't matter if you have a pit bull, a rottweiler, a German shepherd, or I'm Mexican, and you're white, and ev- uh, African American. It really doesn't matter the race of the human. What matter is, is that person has a happy spirit, a healthy instinct, and a well-educated mind, right? So you wanna be a good human, right? And you wanna be part of the pack of the good humans.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
And those humans are good, [laughs] right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Those are, those are the humans, they help other humans or, or, or they create, uh, uh, well-behaved dogs because they're following in that path.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
You know? There are some people who are born to... The... I mean, I, I'm, I was... I'm part of the pack where it's Better Humans, Better Planet. But I know a lot of people [laughs] who are, who are not-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right
- CMCesar Millan
... part of that path. So it's that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, certainly, uh, raising and, and living with Costello taught me a lot about how to sense people's energy.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I had an amazing experience with him that I just want to-
- 16:48 – 19:30
Sponsors: LMNT & Joovv
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health. Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near-infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health. These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision. Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast. To learn more, visit Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman. Again, that's J-O-O-V-V .com/huberman. I'm, uh,
- 19:30 – 26:44
Walking Dog; Pack Order, Tool: Picking a Puppy
- AHAndrew Huberman
in a dilemma whether to go down the, uh, the concepts of what is happening in third world countries, not just today, but always in terms of how people sense energy and use energy-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... versus what we do here. But I think I'm also keen on the fact that many people listening don't know how to walk their dog.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'll ask a very simple question first. Should the dog always be next to you or behind you? Uh, is there ever an instance where the dog should walk out in front of you? And as I say this, we both realize many people walk with their dog in front of them.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, uh, could you tell us about the concept of where the dog is relative to, to us?
- CMCesar Millan
Well, think about it, look at it this way, so people, uh, can, can, uh, uh, adopt the, the concept quicker. 'Cause the, if you learn how to walk a dog, um, it would eliminate 90% of the problems.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
The other 10% would be rules, boundaries, limitations, right? That's it. Um, so when a dog is a pup, he follows his parents, right? And then he plays, then he explore, but the first activity he learns is to follow. Follow, play, explore. So play and explore becomes like a reward activities. That's the Chuck E. Cheese time, right? [laughs] Right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
And, and so the follow is the one they learn, you know, the rules, boundaries, limitations. They learn to, to stay focused and not get distracted.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right.
- CMCesar Millan
So naturally dogs, n- they need to learn to follow. When they go in front of you, they are in the mind of a play or explore. But at the same time, if, if you do this every day, the dog learn that you, he has to lead you to places.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And is that stressful for the dog?
- CMCesar Millan
If a dog is middle of the pack and back of the pack, yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
If a dog is front of the pack, no.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
You see it?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
And so it very important. In order for people to have a front of the pack dog, they need a lot of knowledge. And so most dogs are perfect, uh, middles or back. The back should be the easiest one, but when people don't do the right thing with the back, he becomes fearful. Uh, the middle of the pack should be the one for the families, because they're naturally happy-go-lucky. But i- if you do too much excitement, they become hyper.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
You see it? And-
- AHAndrew Huberman
And this is across breeds.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- CMCesar Millan
This doesn't matter-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Doesn't matter if it's a bulldog or a, you know, a dachshund.
- CMCesar Millan
No. And every litter is front of the pack, middle of the pack, back of the pack. But it's more back of the packs being born, like followers, than it's only one per litter, a, a leader of the pack. So that's, that's what they call in the, in the breeder world a pick of the litter. See it? So in a, in a litter of German shepherds, only one can be a police officers. The other one is pet quality or they call them the run of the litter. Back of the pack, sensitive. Middle of the pack, happy-go-lucky, is the HR of the fam- of the pack, is the middle of the pack, right?
- 26:44 – 35:11
Human & Dog Hierarchy; Greeting Dog, Tool: No Look, No Touch, No Speak
- AHAndrew Huberman
something.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
For people that want to learn to sense their own energy, use their energy field-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... should they also be asking if they are front, middle, or back of pack?
- CMCesar Millan
The human? Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. In the human world. This is something that's a little bit of a sensitive topic, right?
- CMCesar Millan
I know.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because every guy wants to say, "Yeah, I'm an alpha, not a be-..." Everyone thinks that way.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I like to think in different circumstances, people can move up or down the, the-
- CMCesar Millan
The human can
- AHAndrew Huberman
... hierarchy. I mean, I work with a lot of scientists.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I can tell you in s- many environments that they don't come across as alphas. But you put them in a laboratory or a lecture environment, and, I mean, they own their space because that's their expertise. So it can move around. But can you explain what it is to observe oneself, really think honestly about oneself-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and where one really lies in this... Let's, let's call it what it is.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's a, it's a, it's a hierarchy, but that makes it sound like one is better. It just is what it is. You're either-
- CMCesar Millan
It is
- AHAndrew Huberman
... front, middle, or back of pack human.
- CMCesar Millan
That's the, their special magic, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- CMCesar Millan
Being, being back of the pack means they master calm surrender. So we have to learn to, to master calm surrender. That's our more sensitive state of mind, right? This-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
So when I'm assessing and evaluating a dog, I go into my calm surrender state, so I go in the back of the pack.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Right? When it's time for me to give direction and protection, I go to the front of the pack. When I achieve whatever I need to achieve, I go into the middle of the pack.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
You see it? So the human-
- 35:11 – 44:17
Calm Dog, Structured Walk, Tool: Weighted Backpack
- AHAndrew Huberman
family dog-
- CMCesar Millan
Yes
- AHAndrew Huberman
... or even if somebody lives alone, it's no look, no touch, no speak in the first couple of minutes of contact.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, until the dog becomes peaceful and calm and open mind. So surrender means the mind is open.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Right? So once the mind opens up, you can teach whatever you want, such as waiting.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm.
- CMCesar Millan
Such as being calm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What if somebody has an anxious dog right now, they haven't been doing this, and the dog is pawing at them and s- and running around. Should the person just stay completely in that calm space, moving about and ignoring them touching them? Or should they be physically giving like, you know, "Get off me" type thing?
- CMCesar Millan
Well, this, this also have to do with how, how much exercise, physical exercise-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm
- CMCesar Millan
... the dog has received.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Right? How long is his walk?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm.
- CMCesar Millan
'Cause most people walk 20, 30 minutes. That's not enough, and the dog end up in the house for 20, 23 and a half hours.
- AHAndrew Huberman
In my opinion, it's borders on abuse. It's really i- incredibly-
- CMCesar Millan
But-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... hard on an animal that has that much energy
- CMCesar Millan
... but this is the same people say, "I love my dog."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm.
- CMCesar Millan
And, and, and my first question is how long do you walk him?
- AHAndrew Huberman
What is your recommendation? I realize it varies by breed and by age, but-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, and by level of energy, 'cause some-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm
- CMCesar Millan
... some are couch potatoes, low level energy.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Some middle and some high, right? And so it depends on the energy of the dog. So not because a dog is a back of the pack doesn't mean does, they don't have high level energy, okay? 'Cause the, the sled dogs, there is a lot of guys that go in the back. There's only one in the front if you notice, right? And even in the back of the pack dogs, because it, it, they create a, a pack from middle back, right? And that's why they stay in that mode. And, and so even the back of the pack, they have to have the same level of stamina as the one in the front. So not because it's the back of the pack is couch potato, you know? So then, then you have to understand, uh, the levels of energy they're, they're born with. Low, medium, high. Yeah, so a lot of times people say, "Oh, bulldogs are couch potatoes." [laughs] No. They c- you can have a bulldog that is absolutely athletic, absolutely athletic, and has the stamina to go, and, you know, obviously you have to help him with the breathing part, and 'cause they, they just go into, you know, no limits. So you have to help him, you know, cool down.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I can tell you Strummer has a lot of energy, uh, you know, uh, compared to Costello. Um, so two minimum 30-minute walks per day, as, as much as a couple hours twice a day.
- CMCesar Millan
With a backpack on, right? Obviously the dog's a little older, because, you know, the backpack adds that extra half hour, 'cause now the dog is carrying something.
- 44:17 – 46:57
Sponsor: AG1 & Eight Sleep
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take it every day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition. I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1. It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product. Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health and energy generally, brain health, and much more. I personally take them both every day. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct. And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees, and in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5. This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it. It has so many incredible features. For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages. It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5. Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350. I've followed your recommendation with Costello and also with Strummer,
- 46:57 – 50:23
Exercise, Discipline & Affection
- AHAndrew Huberman
uh, exercise, discipline, and then affection.
- CMCesar Millan
And affection. Body, mind, heart.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And, and for many people, you know, they're gonna hear that, I mean, may- it's reflexive for you now-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... of course. Um, this is your domain. Uh, but they're gonna be like, "This... But they don't wanna walk first thing in the morning. I wanna cuddle with my dog first thing in the morning."
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I mean, my household now, I had to be really clear, like, there's, if we don't follow this, we're damaging the opportunities for Strummer. We're, we're actually hurting his psychological wellbeing.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And the only hard part, uh, with him is he doesn't necessarily like to wake up early, but sometimes have to walk him early, so it takes a little bit of, uh, extra encouragement.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The day always starts with a walk.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Then discipline training, and then food.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then some affection.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But it's not hours of, like, cuddling on the couch or anything.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like a, you know... I mean, I, I love him. I would love to pick him up and, and-
- CMCesar Millan
Right
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you know, treat him like a little baby-
- CMCesar Millan
Right
- AHAndrew Huberman
... much more often than I do.
- CMCesar Millan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, but I just see the incredible results that come from this exercise, discipline, and then affection.
- CMCesar Millan
Well, just living a natural life is love, right? [laughs]
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
'Cause we, we, we want them to live as natural as possible, and, uh, and, and so that's love in, in my eyes. Like, exercise, discipline. Discipline is not punishment, 'cause that's an, a word that in the animal, uh, the dog people, when they hear the word discipline on the dog, they put it as punishment.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, they're thinking of a teacher hitting them.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, like-
- 50:23 – 55:30
Relationship to Death, Spirituality
- AHAndrew Huberman
I find it so fascinating that your relationship to dogs, uh, has opened up this understanding of human behavior, but not just how we behave, but how we relate to the wor- the entire world, like the-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... energetics. This keeps coming up in our discussion. I feel I have other practical questions, but I wanna touch on something that you mentioned before we started recording, which is that in a Third World country-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... people are aware of death-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... very early on.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And so the connection to the spiritual-
- CMCesar Millan
Hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... comes first, and all the rest follows. The complete inversion of somebody like me who was born in Northern California, it's like Silicon Valley.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Didn't call it that then. And-
- CMCesar Millan
Right
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you learn everything through the, the logical structures-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and, you know, science and-
- CMCesar Millan
S- science. Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and my dad's a scientist, and it... But e- and even if one loves poetry and music and things like that, which I do, the order is through the, the sort of like bricks on the ground first, and, but there's no concept of death, actually, until-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... your grandparent dies or an-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... animal dies or something. Tell me about this relationship to death and how it structures the, the psyche and the energy of people in Third World countries, because it, it's a direct outgrowth of everything we're talking about.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you think it's going to be extremely useful to people in, regardless of where they live in the world?
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah. I think that's the first step, you know, to learn not to be afraid of death, right? That's the first step, uh, 'cause that's, uh, in, in America, they don't want nothing to die. But it's, it- it's just what it is, right? Birth, life, and death. So it's just... And that's when in the Mexican culture, we have the El Dia los Muertos, the Day of the Death. So we learn to, uh, to be okay with it. We learn to accept it because, you know, in Mexico, uh, a, or a Third World country, death is everywhere. You can see it everywhere, you know? I'm from the north of Mexico, Sinaloa, and you see people with the chopped heads and then hang up and, you know, you go to school and people are, are dead. So what do you, what do you end up doing in tha- in this moment? You, well, you end up believing that God will protect you. That's your spirituality, right? And just like what, I don't want a, a person to break into my house. You get a dog, [laughs] right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
And so that, the mo- mother nature to protect you. So for us, when, when we grew up that way, seeing death everywhere, we learned to surrender to this higher power, right? And we are what you believe, you know? So i- it's, it's, it's really good, you know, in, in, uh, in our experience to, to be able to surrender to death, but at the same time, we also surrender that somebody's going to give us direction, protection, love. The same thing. He's the pack leader, right? And we just surrender to that, right? And as well, we surrender to Earth giving us food and taking care of Earth 'cause it's a, it's a, it's a combination of spirituality and instincts in a Third World country.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So it's almost like people in Third World countries place sort of... They see the reality of death-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- 55:30 – 1:01:36
Human Energy, Rescue Dogs; Sensing Stress
- AHAndrew Huberman
I used to joke 'cause I'd bring Costello to my lab with me, a lab of about 15 people. I'd walk in with him, and, and he'd go around, and he, he liked walking into the lab. He'd see all the students and people working. He used to bring his toy around to each of them sitting at their desks to try and get them to play.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know, he's, he was part of the lab.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And, and people really, uh, I like to think they loved him.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They told me anyway that.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But I used to look at him sometimes, and I'd think he, he doesn't care that I'm the professor. He doesn't care. That's the best part about this relationship.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He doesn't care. He doesn't care even if we go home at night. Sometimes I would sleep-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... in the lab back then. He doesn't care. He just wants us to be together. He wants his walks.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He likes to be on things.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I just realized he just kinda wants to be around-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... the joy of family, a laboratory. He just wants to be part of this, and it really helped me to just remove the, the, the concept that he even knew what roles were-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... or jobs were.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It was just this place we went.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I think dogs are a wonderful way to look at the world differently-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and realize both how different we are as a species but also all these things that we've created, like these are just human creations.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And they're important. Jobs are important, obviously.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- 1:01:36 – 1:07:27
Animal Intelligence, Cats; Being a Pack Leader
- AHAndrew Huberman
Humans are so obsessed with dog "intelligence" that looks like our intelligence. Like, if I see another video of, like, how many words a dog can learn or, you know, dogs doing tricks or walking on their hind legs, I... None of that impresses me. I also like cephalopods, octopuses.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I have a couple of them, actually, uh, and I'm fascinated by them, and people think they're extremely intelligent, and they may be. But I'm interested in their intelligence. You can find a video of a guy who taught an octopus to play a piano, but if you look at the training process, it was just shaping, right?
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, repetition.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Reward this and reward that. That video, I'll go on record saying, totally unimpressive to me. It tells you far more about the trainer's willingness to painstakingly shape an animal than it does about octopuses at all. Like, it- I mean, I'm not saying a, a, an ant or a plant could've learned to play the piano, but what he did could be done with a horse if it just had big keys. So it's n- there's nothing interesting about this, but humans, we seem obsessed with transferring our, let's say, keep it to first world-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yes
- AHAndrew Huberman
... because that seems, um, a- aligned here, our first world understanding of what intelligence and knowledge is and skill is, and putting that onto other species.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And it, it's crazy. It's crazy. It doesn't reveal anything except our own, uh, shortsightedness and, and stubbornness about being unwilling to think about these other, uh, ways of communication and moving through the world.
- CMCesar Millan
Well, it is that, that self-oriented first versus pack-oriented. You know, what is what the pack needs versus what is what you want, right? So that, that is more like where, where when the human just wants a, a baby, for example, and they get a dog. Humanizing a dog, is it, is it good for the dog? No. Right? It's not good. It's good for the human. You know? It's good for the human fantasy and, and, uh, fulfillment, uh, emotional fulfillment or whatever thing they have in their mind, but is it, is it good for the dog to be a human? Why would he wants to be a human? Why they're not try- trying to do the same thing with a cat? Because the what they say is, "He's a cat," so you can't humanize a cat.
- AHAndrew Huberman
[laughs]
- CMCesar Millan
You see what I'm saying? So the cat sends the human to hell, right? Yeah. 'Cause the cat only comes whenever he wants to come, so you can't influence anybody who doesn't wanna be with you. Yeah, right? The dog, you have to teach him to live without you, right? He has to learn to keep you distant 'cause he's a pack-oriented. So you, you can influence a dog much quicker than you influence a cat. Right? You can't influence anybody who doesn't want to follow you.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How do you feel about cats?
- CMCesar Millan
I love cats. I love all animals. You know, I, I was gonna invite you to the ranch 'cause we have all the species, and we can assess and evaluate your dog better, right? With the chickens and the ducks and the different species, so, so we can see the prey drive. You know? And you can, you, you, you, you, you've, you are going to, uh, be able to see, do you have a dog with prey drive, and how do we block it, right? Or you have a dog with play drive and you just leave it open.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, I'd love to bring Strummer out there.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, yeah.
- CMCesar Millan
It's a good place because your dog gets to interact not just with dogs, but with other species that trigger that prey drive. Very, very important, 'cause what makes your dog social is that he learns to accept others. See, I, I don't want a dog that, that, that has a, a protective drive or I, I, I'm not interested in that, right? I just want a dog that accepts everybody. Yeah. And that's a dog that is going to give you zero lawsuits, [laughs] zero liability, right? 'Cause he accepts everybody.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, yeah, I know people in California in particular whose dogs, um, charged other people, lawsuits.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like it- even if they didn't bite, it's, uh, that's a whole thing.
- CMCesar Millan
And it can be a Lhasa Apso. It can be a dog that was not meant for protection. But because it doesn't have rules, boundaries, limitations, it doesn't walk, and, you know, every day the dog is bored, confused, or frustrated, and then he releases that 'cause he's a predator. Dog by nature is a predator. They're gonna move forward to release energy. You see it? So but you want them to move forward i- with the right state of mind, right? Or when you tell the dog to move forward, right? That's, that's just discipline. Uh, but people don't, don't have that kind of understanding, and the dog end up doing whatever they want, so the dog end up, you know, putting people in a lawsuit, which another, another, uh, place where the dog doesn't know you getting sue about it, you know? So he's not gonna, "Oh my God, we're gonna, we're gonna lose money," you know? The dog is not gonna understand that concept.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, we pr- as humans, we, we project so much onto other species, other people. And i- in the backdrop of everything we're talking about, I'm, uh, I'm hoping that people are seeing the ways in which they can show up in s- circumstances with more calmness.
- CMCesar Millan
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Especially if it's not reflexive. You know, uh, before every episode I, I pray. I do. I, I ask for certain things. I try to open up certain things so that, um, it... I realize not all of this is under our control. That's my belief. And to try and invite certain things in. So it's not reflexive. I do it as a, you call it a di- a discipline. I'm happy to do it, but, um, I think people assume that you're either calm or you're an anxious person. People assume that their dog is either calm or anxious. This is a terrible misconception. I think we, we can become calmer regardless of where we are in our natural levels of anxiety.
- CMCesar Millan
But animals do not, will never choose ex- anxiety or be, or live an anxious life, right? We're the only species that follow unstable leaders, right? So to be the pack leader in a, uh, in the animal world, you have to be the most patient, the most calm, the most confident, the most loving, the more joyful. Everything has to be at 100%. Then you can be a pack leader. Right? And your job is to resolve problems, [laughs] right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
That's practically it. So the, the least that you can do is to bring problems: anxiety, fear, insecurities. All of that stuff is, is something that you bring back home. You don't want that.
- 1:07:27 – 1:12:41
Calm Greeting, Humanizing Animals, Safety & Security, Anxious Dogs
- AHAndrew Huberman
So before people hit the door coming home, they should do a, a check-in with themselves.
- CMCesar Millan
Just do a little prayer, too. God, just let me be silence, calm, confident, love, and joy to my dog. That's it. I might- I wanna practice no touch, [laughs] no talk, no eye contact, and just help my dog to calm down, and then I'm gonna give him affection. I'm not saying not to give affection. I'm just saying give affection to patience and calmness and open mind, right? 'Cause when you, when your dog misbehave, you want him to go back there. Go back to your good state of mind, right? You don't want the dog to do fight, flight, avoidance. Those are the bad state of mind. The good state of mind is patience, calm, surrender, or happy-go-lucky. Those are good state of mind.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I think, uh, here I'm projecting a lot and assuming a lot, but I think a lot of people, deep down, I think they probably like that their dog is so, quote-unquote, "happy to see them" at the end of the day.
- CMCesar Millan
Excited, excited.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Because I think many people feel devoid of real love and connection, and the idea that their fur baby... I really don't like this term. They're not babies. Yes, they have fur.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But, like, I think out of respect for animals, we have to remember that they're animals first. I, when I heard, first heard you say, like, they're, you know, they're spirit, animal-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah. Yep
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you know, uh-
- CMCesar Millan
Species. Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... species, and then breed, and then-
- CMCesar Millan
The name
- AHAndrew Huberman
... the name. It was so helpful for me because, um, I don't wanna get into it here 'cause it's not directly relevant, but in science, I've worked, uh, with humans, I've worked with animals, and I, uh, you know, I stopped working with animals 'cause it was really hard on my soul.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I understand biomedical research.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I understand, which is a whole other discussion.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But even just the way that people would start to talk about animals, like we work on them, not with them. And this is a complicated issue we could get into sometime, but I started to realize, like, we start using words to either dehumanize or humanize animals, and both are terrible.
- CMCesar Millan
[laughs] Both.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So when I heard you g- give this description of, you know, spirit, animal-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... et cetera, I was like, he's saying don't humanize-
- CMCesar Millan
Right
- AHAndrew Huberman
... these animals because it makes them feel unsafe.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And-
- CMCesar Millan
Or, or confused.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or confused.
- CMCesar Millan
[laughs]
- 1:12:41 – 1:21:31
Safety & Horses, Respecting Dogs; Human Selfishness, Pack Leader
- AHAndrew Huberman
When I was growing up, m- most people didn't have dogs in our neighborhood, suburban neighborhood. Um, there were a few dogs. Now everyone's got a dog. It's like having a phone. Everyone's got a dog. This doesn't seem like a good thing.
- CMCesar Millan
It's a great thing for me 'cause I get... I love to teach people, you know, uh, about energy, philosophy, and actions. I want people to have a trust, respect, love, the most incredible relationship, uh, with a dog. 'Cause, you know, that's... A, a dog really makes you a good human if you do things right, and then once you practice that, you can just give it to other humans. 'Cause it makes it tangible. Does energy really work? Yeah. What about if I have a good philosophy? Did that really work? Yeah, it works. Okay. What about if my actions are good? If that really works, yes. Now you combine the three, and watch what your dog does, right? And then you go and do the same thing with other humans. Right? So you create this beautiful, uh, trust, respect, love with humans, or connection, communication, relationship. You go and create safe, peace, and love environments. Horse people are really good about safety, right? So, so the priority in the horse world is not love. The priority is safety. So, uh, so a horse person is gonna teach a child, don't scream, no touch, no talk, no eye contact, right? So the kid will learn that with a horse you have to be quiet, calm, and wait until the horse, uh, uh, give you the signal. And the same person will go and teach the kid with dogs, ask if you can pet him, right? But because in the horse world safety is number one, how do you keep a horse calm? [breathes deeply] And you wait. And then the horse calm. What is... what... how do they walk a horse? The wa- the horse is right be- next to the human, never in front, right? So people can, people... You can see a little kid walking a horse. You see it? And the horse is behind the kid, not in front of the kid. But first is the meeting, and then the third thing is feeding the horse. If the horse is too excited, don't put the hay yet. Wait until the horse calms down, then the hay goes down. The meeting, the walk, and the feeding.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Incredible. And they're big, so we have this natural respect for them that people don't necessarily have for a dog, but a dog obviously can bite-
- CMCesar Millan
But-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you know
- CMCesar Millan
... but why not have that respect for someone that we say, you know, man and dog is man best friend. Yeah. The dog has the best titles of all the animals in the, on Earth, right? The dog. But when it comes to the actions, we don't honor the dog because we want the dog to be a human. We don't respect the dog because we want the dog to be a human. When you honor and respect somebody, you honor who they are. You respect who they are. You learn about how they are, and that's what you love. See it? You love who they are. You don't love what you think. You love who they are.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And you don't try and project that they're somebody else. I think some people, I'm making assumptions here, but some people will hear some of what we're talking about today, and they'll say, "Oh, well, that's how I should become the pack leader. With people, I should never let anyone walk through a door before me or something like..." But the point you're trying to make is that human to human is different than animal-
- CMCesar Millan
Correct
- AHAndrew Huberman
... to human.
- CMCesar Millan
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You don't just transfer the same thing.
- CMCesar Millan
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Some things transfer, but other things don't.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I've worked with non-human primates before.
- CMCesar Millan
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's interesting, a lot of people go to the zoo. I'm not a big fan of, you know-
- CMCesar Millan
Correct
- AHAndrew Huberman
... putting large carnivores and primates in zoos.
- CMCesar Millan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm not. I want to be clear, I don't, you know, I, I, I have issues with that. But people will smile at the monkey, or they'll go like, you know, "Ee, ee, ee, ee, ee." For a macaque monkey, baring teeth is aggression. So a friend of mine, she's an animal behaviorist, and she said, "Oh, no, if you, if you want to do an affiliative behavior with w- with a monkey, you lip smack," which sounds kinda cute and funny, and people go, "Oh," but you, you could tell somebody that 100 times, and they'll still go, "Ee, ee, ee, ee, ee." Like, it's like we want to project our own understanding of what we think is going on, and even in the presence of knowledge, your dog is going to feel more safe and secure and happy if you come in l- no look, no touch, no speak.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There's something about the human brain where we just wanna project, "No, but I want my experience."
- CMCesar Millan
That's right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And it's an incredibly selfish thing. It was really the realization for me that it's very selfish of me to come home and want a certain kind of interaction with my pet, Costello, but to put the interaction in the terms that work for me. I s- and I said, you know, this is the first time I owned a dog. Everyone in my life for the longest time, they're like, "You're never..." I was talking about it since I was a kid. "You're never gonna get a dog." I waited until I had the finances, till I had a home. I waited. I am very proud of the fact that I waited. I desperately wanted an animal for so long, since I was a little kid. I had fish and things like that, but I wanted a dog. I knew at the time when I got him that it was the right time.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But I had to be very careful, because I wanted it to go so well that I found myself projecting, what if he doesn't attach?
- CMCesar Millan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What if, what if... And there was all this in, like, stuff, and then I read your book and I realized, if I want this to go really well, I have to get out of my understanding of what I need-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- 1:21:31 – 1:23:15
Sponsor: Function
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 1:23:15 – 1:32:17
Human Leaders; Pack Order, Prioritizing Affection
- AHAndrew Huberman
um, by projecting the most confidence that nothing can phase them. That seems to be the, the, the competition-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... on both sides of the political aisle.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like, who is more certain of the statement they're making?
- CMCesar Millan
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is like, and this is like, just seems to be the thing we select for-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... not the traits you're describing.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Got my theories as to why that's so, but I think we can all look around and see, see how that's going. I just got back from-
- CMCesar Millan
And we can learn a lot from our animals, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
I, I think all leaders should, should show us, you know, themselves w- with a pack of o- of dogs so we can assess and evaluate their energy well, you know? [laughs] 'Cause they, they, they say the philosophy we want to hear, right? They always talk great about the intellectual part people want to hear. But then the energy and then the actions, that's what we end up seeing at the end, right? Look at Mexico, right? We always, oh, a, a woman president. Yes, Mexico is gonna be well taken care. Same. No safe, no peace, no trust, no respect. It's the same. It's a continuation of the same philosophy, but they all say great things. You see what I mean? I don't lie to dogs. I, I say, you know, "Listen, I'm going to bring you back your s- your, your silence, your calmness, your surrender. That's my contribution to you because you humans made you fight, flight, avoidance." And boom. I don't say nothing to the dog. I just feel it and I do it. I skip the saying 'cause they don't care about what I say. They care about what I feel and what I do. The human cares about what you say. So you can just brainwash the human all you want, lie to the human, and the human will vote. We're the only species that follow unstable leaders. There is no species that will vote for somebody that has unstable lea- energy to begin with. They can care less what they saying. [laughs]
- AHAndrew Huberman
I watched that, uh, series on Netflix, Chimp Empire. It's fascinating. You know, the, the very hierarchical-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you know, troops, and the, the alpha occasionally will feel like he's losing some control over his, uh, troop.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And he'll go on these displays where he starts breaking trees-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and beating his chest, and they look a lot more like humans.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Humans look a lot more like them.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But I saw, uh, an interview with Jane Goodall. Um, you-
- CMCesar Millan
I've seen-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... probably seen this where-
- CMCesar Millan
Yes
- AHAndrew Huberman
... they said, you know, "What, what is your favorite thing about them?"
- CMCesar Millan
They're fantastic.
- 1:32:17 – 1:44:40
Picking Human Partners, Good Pack Leaders
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... there. Actually, I've, um... Since we're talking about human relationships, I, I have a friend, he has a very happy, very successful marriage, um, in, in the real sense that you walk into their home, and like, the, they have some, uh... They have a, a couple of kids. One of them has some special needs, but that, um, they're managing that well. The home is very balanced.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They seem very, very happy.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And he was giving advice, uh, to some other guys. Uh, and he said, "You know, among the, the, the women that would be, like, partners, good partners for you-"
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... uh, you have to make a decision about how much you want somebody who's gonna give you instructions-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... versus leave you alone, versus wants, you know, some direction."
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It was a very edgy thing to say, you know, at the time.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Now you can have these kinds of conversations. [laughs]
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, finally.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, yeah. And it, and it was very interesting. There were three other guys at the table, none of whom are, are married, uh, including me, and we each had different answers to that c- question. One said, "Yeah, I want somebody that I can, like, really be in, like, kind of-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... wants to be led."
- CMCesar Millan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Not subservient, you know. Obviously respect and kindness-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... all that. But, but the other one, [laughs] he said, um, "I want someone who's, like, really gonna, like, keep me in line."
- CMCesar Millan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I was like... I was very shocked.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I was like, "This is incredible."
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But he was being v- he was being honest.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He wanted someone who was basically gonna, like, keep him out of his childlike nature-
- 1:44:40 – 1:52:34
Dog & Testing Boundaries, Tool: Calm & Confidence
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's beautiful. The, um, as a practical tangent, uh, the, the thing about just shoulders back-
- CMCesar Millan
[laughs]
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and, and walk, I think it's funny to see when people try this, they're like, they, like, the, "I'm gonna be the pack leader."
- CMCesar Millan
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That, that doesn't work. And I'll tell you, it really doesn't work with a bulldog mastiff.
- CMCesar Millan
No. You can't fake it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
If you get frustrated with them, they feel it, and they pull back. It's wild. They just can feel it. Like, if you're frustrated, "Let's go."
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like, no.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'll sometimes give a little bit of a stern... I have one little command that I occasionally use. I keep its potency, but if Costello, or in this case Strummer, is really being stubborn just for stubborn sake-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I'll do tss, and that's it.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's all it takes.
- CMCesar Millan
Snapping noises, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But if I s- do that more than three times on a walk, it loses its potency.
- CMCesar Millan
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's just my way of saying, like, "No."
- CMCesar Millan
That's right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's, it's just a no.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But I don't say no. And if I were-
- CMCesar Millan
You feel it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. And if I were to tss, tss, tss... And I'm realizing as I say this, that little tss is probably more of a reminder to myself-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... as much as is a reminder to him.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah. It happened to both.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. I'm just kinda trying to create this thing like, "No, we're go- I lead this walk. We're, you need this walk."
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- 1:52:34 – 1:58:02
Cultivating Self-Awareness & Self-Discipline, Life Values
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I love that. I mean, I feel like we're, we're drifting further and further away from ourselves as, as a species, and what I'm hearing is that looking at our interactions with this other species, dogs, and looking at our... Practicing our ability to get outside ourselves-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and tap into other aspects of ourselves, like the need for calm confidence when we just wanna be loving, that's really about wanting to be loved.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know, the person coming home is not... It's not that the dog needs their love.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They can hear, oh, you know, actually, the dog needs calm confidence.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But I translate it as, no, th- this person just feels so tired at the end of the day.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What they need is something that just adores them.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know? And I... The whole process of raising Costello was one of r- reading your book, really, this is, this is why you're here, I mean, 'cause I tr- f- see- saw and experienced so much value from your teaching, and then realizing that if I r- really wanna get what I want-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... it means building the relationship means not doing this thing in the moment. I'm thinking about the whole relationship.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Safety first, et cetera.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And so it's this kind of c- counterintuitive thing of needing to go against self in the moment to create the sort of picture where you get so much more and everybody wins.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There is a version of everybody, including the dogs, wins.
- CMCesar Millan
Everybody wins.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But it requires a level of self-discipline, awareness, calmness, breathing, that I think many people, and certainly in that time, I felt like a... Just so much constant pressure to do, do, do.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So there's a certain amount of slowing down and self-awareness that's required for everything that you're describing.
- CMCesar Millan
Yes, sir.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What is your practice for that on a daily basis? I mean, you're a master now.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? You're a virtuoso at this.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- 1:58:02 – 2:02:22
Clearing Mind, Tool: Cold Plunge
- AHAndrew Huberman
What's your process for turning off your mind? This is a very, um, common challenge for people.
- CMCesar Millan
Think the easiest way for people to experience, because they have to see it, right? You can tell people-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- CMCesar Millan
... "Da, da, da, da," but if they don't see it inside, they, they're never gonna see... understand what you mean. So what, [laughs] what I help people with is I put them in the cold plunge, right? [laughs] And s- once they go through the fight-flight avoidance, they wanna see, and they get to the calm surrender. What are you thinking? I'm thinking nothing. That's exactly what, what, what a clear mind looks like.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Right? So through that cold plunge experience, the human gets to understand breath-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm
- CMCesar Millan
... patience-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm
- CMCesar Millan
... you know, confidence-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm
- CMCesar Millan
... and not to think anything. Because you're doing this with your spirit and your instinct and your heart. This is... Your mind just have to wait for the, the three minutes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
That's it. Without anticipation, so there's just nothing there, right? And then of course, the cold doesn't let you think.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Right? But the only thing you can do is breathe-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right
- CMCesar Millan
... and wait. And so then once they see it, okay, that is the meaning of not having nothing in your mind.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CMCesar Millan
Right? So I make them experience it, versus if I just tell them, they can't picture it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
As somebody who's a real believer, as you probably know, in deliberate cold exposure-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I mean, I think it's, it's, uh, people, it's zero cost. I mean, you s- you use a cold shower.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know, it saves on the water bill.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So this isn't like having to run out and buy something. What it tells me, because the cold plunge immediately reliably releases adrenaline-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... which then wakes up the brain as well-
- CMCesar Millan
That's your instinct
- 2:02:22 – 2:12:13
Honoring Pet Death, Celebration, Expressing Sadness
- CMCesar Millan
get.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's the, the amount of peace that I still get from my relationship with Costello, I mean, he's passed now, but he's still-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah, everywhere
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I believe, in his spirit, uh, is I mean, I would s-
- CMCesar Millan
Spirit never dies
- AHAndrew Huberman
... it's, it's a word, I... It makes me well up, you know, not out of sadness. It's like I can feel the, the love of the relationship.
- CMCesar Millan
Correct.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know, I had to ask, and, a- and on my list, and I'm going to ask, this is the right time, I believe. Um, so as Costello got to 11 years old-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... it's pretty old for a bulldog.
- CMCesar Millan
That's right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He had a some sort of spinal stroke. He couldn't walk. He was falling over. I was, like, distraught. How can I get this fixed? And-
- CMCesar Millan
Right
- AHAndrew Huberman
... at some point I realized, you know, when people say, like, they'll let you know.
- CMCesar Millan
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I had a, a feeling and then a thought, and it went something like this. I made a contract with him to take care of him.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And in the contract of being a really good dog o- owner-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but, like, mostly in the contract of the relationship, I owed him a, a, a peaceful exit. Hated going to the vet, so I got someone to come to the house-
- CMCesar Millan
That's right
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and do this thing. Most people, they hate the concept of death, especially in family members or-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... a dog, and I think it would've been useful to me to understand the day I got him that someday this is gonna end.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I think, like, this thing about honoring death is a real thing-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... w- uh, is so important because that last two weeks was a real struggle between me and myself.
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
My desire to just keep it going, and I realized I was being selfish.
- 2:12:13 – 2:17:25
Understanding Energy, Dog Training & Hard Work
- AHAndrew Huberman
These days on social media, there's so much I'm realizing about the low level, um, stuff. Like, you should never hug a dog. You should hug a dog. You should never pick up your dog off the ground.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's okay to pick up. Your dog should never be in your bed.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Your dog should be in your bed. You see all these contradictions. You see the same thing in the health space.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, you should cold plunge, you shouldn't cold plunge. You should sauna, you should... Like, it, it, and it comes down to a basic fact, which is that it's not about the practice, it's the-
- CMCesar Millan
Right
- AHAndrew Huberman
... it's the principle behind it, the spirit behind it-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... the energy behind it. So I was tempted to ask you, like-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... is it bad to pick up the dog?
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Actually, Strummer loves being held.
- CMCesar Millan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Costello hated it.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Strummer, he's ha- he's basically happiest-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm-hmm
- AHAndrew Huberman
... just being carried around.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, but-
- CMCesar Millan
Very close
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I know you don't wa- I don't carry him around too much, but it's funny, he just drapes.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He's so happy that way.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He, he wishes he could go through the world that way-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- 2:17:25 – 2:23:50
Dog Breeds & Exercise, Fostering Dogs; Spay & Neuter, Humping
- AHAndrew Huberman
I love it. I, I hope that people start to think about their dog and getting a dog as more of a gym, uh, as opposed to, "I'm, we're gonna get a fur baby." I have a friend, uh, have to be very careful here. Uh, this is truly not about my household, but I have a friend. She's married. They, they're going through some struggles. They have two kids, and she told me the other day they never had a dog. She's gonna get two husky puppies. And I said, "Do me a favor. Just get one."
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
"In six months if you..." But they want each other, this and that.
- CMCesar Millan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And the, the kids are young.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There's no way, and I, um, and I know the struggles that they're having, and it's-
- CMCesar Millan
Mm. Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... they're, they're both overworked.
- CMCesar Millan
Okay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
They're under-resourced, so this is-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, and they love each other very much, but this is, like, a really hard situation.
- CMCesar Millan
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I'm thinking to myself, "I wanna be supportive."
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I said, "Do not get a puppy now, and if you do, do not get two puppies."
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is, like, insanity.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, you, you, like, you wanna... Like, it could break your family.
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or she said, "Well, I promised the kids this."
- CMCesar Millan
It'll break your heart because you have to get rid of the dogs.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So this, she said, "My..." It was a story. It's very interesting. She said, "When I was growing up, my parents would make these promises, and they wouldn't do it. And I told, and it broke my heart, and I told my kids they could each get one."
- CMCesar Millan
[laughs]
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I said, I said, "Well, you have no idea the kind of heartbreak they're going to experience-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
- AHAndrew Huberman
... when you have to give them both back-
- CMCesar Millan
Yeah
Episode duration: 2:38:23
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