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Dr. Rhonda Patrick on Huberman Lab: Why gut LPS harms health

Through gut permeability: LPS from processed meals enters blood and binds LDL; foam cells form and fasting triggers a metabolic switch that limits the cascade.

Dr. Rhonda PatrickguestAndrew Hubermanhost
Mar 23, 20263h 31mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:40

    Rhonda Patrick

    1. RP

      There's lots of data now showing that people that are doing these like short bursts at, at least a minute long, but up to three minutes, they're moving faster with intent, and it's having outsize effects on, on health outcomes. So for example, individuals that do on the high end, so they're doing, you know, three minutes of this short burst of an unstructured type of exercise snack, and they do it three times a day, so it's a total of nine minutes a day, okay, that's associated with a 40% reduction in all-cause mortality, 40% reduction in cancer-related mortality, a 50% reduction in cardiovascular-related mortality.

    2. AH

      Wow.

    3. RP

      Nine minutes a day.

    4. AH

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. [guitar music] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Rhonda Patrick, a biomedical scientist and leading public health educator. For over a decade, Rhonda has been one of the most trusted voices in building science-based health protocols. Today, we discuss what the latest and best research says we should all be doing to improve our health and vitality and avoid disease. Rhonda shares with us her exact exercise, nutrition, supplementation, and sauna protocols, and we get really detailed about the mechanisms and logic behind each one. We also discuss the things that science say you can do to significantly reduce your cancer and cardiovascular risk, including how to reduce visceral fat and arterial plaque. Today's discussion truly leaves no stone unturned. We discuss how eating can increase inflammation, believe it or not, ways to support your gut health, creatine, vitamin D, why broad vitamin and mineral and fiber support is crucial, as well as the different forms of magnesium and each of their unique effects. We also discuss omega-3s and why prescription sources of omega-3s may be the cleanest and most cost-efficient way to obtain sufficient omega-3 intake. We also discuss the importance of prioritizing regular resistance training and HIIT workouts over protein. You still need protein, but emphasizing the exercise component is crucial. And we discuss fiber, micronutrients, and why short-term fasting can be beneficial. Dr. Rhonda Patrick is a true wealth of knowledge, and today she generously provides us a master class on how you can design and adjust the exact health protocols to meet your specific needs. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.

  2. 2:40 – 6:49

    Competition, Jumping Rope, Rope Flow

    1. AH

      Welcome back, Dr. Rhonda Patrick.

    2. RP

      Excited to be here.

    3. AH

      It's been a while. I'm so excited. There's so much to go into. And I'll start off the same way I started last time because it's even more true. Thank you for being first person into this public science health education business. I don't know if everyone's aware of it, but you were the first person in, which is why I didn't say first man in, because the first person in was and is a woman, and you've done a marvelous job of educating people on science, how to parse papers and data, health practices, and, um, you know, the rest of us are just trying to follow in your wake. So thank you very much. I just want to thank you for being first.

    4. RP

      Oh, man. Thank you so much for that. And also thank you for doing what you do. I mean, you really do a great service for science communication, um, you know, education, helping people love science and get healthier.

    5. AH

      Thank you. Well, uh, you're the pioneer. It's not always easy being a pioneer, but we all benefit, so. Let's jump in at exercise because, um, lately you've actually been posting your workouts, which is awesome, and, uh, you're clearly very fit. I learned before talking to you today that, uh, you were a competitive athlete. You were a long jumper or triple jumper?

    6. RP

      I was a long jumper.

    7. AH

      Uh-huh.

    8. RP

      But I would say my real competitive athleteness comes from my jump roping. [laughs]

    9. AH

      Okay. All right.

    10. RP

      I was on a professional jump roping team.

    11. AH

      Professional?

    12. RP

      Yes.

    13. AH

      Okay.

    14. RP

      Yeah. It was, it was... We would compete. So I s- my friend and I started the team when we were in second grade, and it was called the San Diego Sandskippers. It was part of the International Rope Skipping Organization, which was actually started by her uncle. But there's jump rope teams all around the world, and, you know, now I think there's a new name, but, like, it got taken over by the Universal Jump Rope Team or something like that. I don't know exactly what it is. But, um, so I was on a team, and every year we would compete in, in Boulder, Colorado. There was competitions for all kinds of, you know, jumping rope, and, um, I would perform and start jump rope teams around the school-- around different schools in San Diego. So I, I used to get out of school, um, you know, get out of school free card and, uh, my partner and I would go and, and start to, um, do workshops at other schools and help them start jump rope teams and the idea was cardiovascular health, healthy heart, and, uh, yeah. So, so that's really, I, I would say my, my, my roots with, uh, being a competitive athlete.

    15. AH

      Awesome. I love skipping rope. Is it okay to say skipping rope or is jumping rope the-

    16. RP

      Yeah. Yeah.

    17. AH

      Okay.

    18. RP

      Skipping rope, jumping rope.

    19. AH

      And actually, it's a great opportunity for me to ask you what your thoughts are about, um, exercise that isn't just linear, right? I know, like, real jump ropers can do crossovers and, um, and these days I'm seeing a lot more about rope flow. I think it's David Weck and others online are, you know, stuff that's getting people out of the standard, you know, curls, bench presses, lunges, you know, and getting movements that are more, just for lack of a better term, across the body. Do you think there's something to that in terms of real physical benefits? I mean, I imagine there is.

    20. RP

      Sure. I mean, I wouldn't be the expert to be able to give you a good answer on that, but I do think that jumping rope in general has unique benefits.

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RP

      In addition to, obviously it's a great cardiovascular exercise. You're getting the weight bearing aspects as well-

    23. AH

      Mm-hmm

    24. RP

      ...for building bone density, and I think that earlier for me, you know, I was doing it as a, a young girl, so important, right? 'Cause you're kind of banking that, that bone density early on-

    25. AH

      Yeah

    26. RP

      ...which is important 'cause at some point, you know, menopause will hit and, and, uh, estrogen goes down and, and so you start to lose more bone. But, um, yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of benefits to jumping rope beyond what I'm describing as cardiovascular benefits and bone benefits that-Someone else could answer. [laughs]

    27. AH

      Well, I'm certainly gonna get back to jumping rope now that we, you know, resurrected it in this conversation. And I have to say, um, uh, bone density measurements aside, you have awesome posture. I notice people's posture.

    28. RP

      Oh, really?

    29. AH

      Yeah. I didn't, didn't mean to put you on the spot here, but yeah, when I walked in, I was like, if you ever interacted with Rhonda in person, which I, I have, you have amazing posture. And these days, good posture is rare. So who knows, maybe the things, uh, uh, are related. I imagine they probably are, uh, bone health and, and posture and so forth. In terms of the

  3. 6:49 – 12:30

    Rhonda's Exercise Routine, Cardiovascular & Resistance Training

    1. AH

      sorts of exercise that people are more familiar with, what's your routine look like and what sorts of things in your routine are non-negotiables, and where's the place for experimentation and kinda what you're exploring now?

    2. RP

      So for me, exercise is part of my personal hygiene, as you and I were discussing.

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. RP

      It, it really is a non-negotiable.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RP

      I absolutely have to do exercise just like I have to brush my teeth. And, um, you know, I kinda got that from Dr. Ben Levine, who's a, you know, probably one of the world leading cardiovascular exercise physiologists. He's at UT Southwest in Dallas. Just wanna shout out his name because I've really learned a lot from him. But the non-negotiables for me really are getting cardiovascular exercise and getting my, my resistance training, so building muscle, maintaining muscle strength as well. So my routine for me, I, I work out probably about five to six hours a week.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RP

      And those workouts, I largely am doing a combination of high intensity interval training that's not necessarily like the Norwegian 4x4, where I'm going as hard as I can for one min- or four minutes, and then recovering for three minutes and doing that four times. It's really, you know, the Norwegian 4x4 is a hard workout. Um, it's really good for improving your cardiorespiratory fitness, which I think is one of the best markers for longevity, and we can talk about that.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RP

      Um, I do a lot of... You know, it's a, it's a mixture of doing, you know, rowing machine, getting on the assault bike, and then doing, mixing in, mixing it in with lifting weights, doing some deadlifts, you know, doing squats. Um, so it's really for me a non-negotiable to, to do my, my vigorous intensity exercise, is what I would call it. So you're really kind of getting your heart rate up to, you know, 80% max heart rate at, at points. Not always, but especially during the intervals. I would say that's a non-negotiable for me.

    11. AH

      How many days a week are you doing that?

    12. RP

      I do my, my longer HIIT workouts... So I have four days a week where I'm doing at least an hour. So two of those, two of those sessions are more of a CrossFit type of training-

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm

    14. RP

      ... where I'll do the first 30 minutes will be strength training.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RP

      So I'll just be lifting heavier with, like, you know, fewer reps. And-

    17. AH

      What's the rest between sets? Sorry to get granular, but people-

    18. RP

      Um

    19. AH

      ... will wonder.

    20. RP

      What's funny is I typically rest about two minutes-

    21. AH

      Okay

    22. RP

      ... between my sets.

    23. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. RP

      I, I, I recover pretty quick.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RP

      Um, and my c- I do it with a coach, and my coach usually tells me that I'm spot on and I'm, like, ready to go, and it's been about two minutes.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RP

      So I, I usually, that's my recovery time.

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RP

      And so the first 30 minutes is strength training, and that'll be, like, deadlifts. It'll be, you know, squats. I'll be cleaning. I'll be doing front squats. Sometimes I do the barbell or back squats, right? Like, it's a mixture-

  4. 12:30 – 14:40

    Cognitive & Physical Benefits of Exercise, Serotonin & Impulse Control

    1. RP

      You know, it... There's, there's a variety of brain benefits that have been shown with even just 10 minutes of this vigorous type of intensity of workout you do, you know, where you're-I mean, you probably have seen this, this data where it's like just 10 minutes of this vigorous type of exercise, you're immediately increasing neuronal connections. Um, th- there's been studies showing that you have an improvement in executive function by like 14%, which is pretty big. I think it was like a fif- 50-millisecond improvement processing speed or something, which doesn't sound a lot, but actually it translates to a big improvement in executive function. So my brain works better, I feel better, you know, better mood. Um, there's even studies that have compared impulse control after various types of intensity of workouts. So like there's one study that compared a more low intensity versus moderate intensity versus high intensity. So you're talking about like walking versus maybe, you know, jogging slowly where you can still have a conversation versus like you're doing a HIIT workout, right?

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RP

      You're on. When you're on, you're not really talking 'cause you're going as hard as you can during that interval. And it was the high intensity, you know, vigorous intensity exercise that really increased plasma serotonin, which has been shown to associate with brain serotonin. The studies have been done. And serotonin is very important for, as you know, for impulse control. I mean, a lot of people think about serotonin with respect to mood-

    4. AH

      Mm-hmm

    5. RP

      ... because we have these selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, SSRIs, that are used to treat, you know, depression, major depressive disorder. But serotonin, as you know, does so much more, more than that. And impulse control is one of the, the, the big things that serotonin plays a role in. And so the studies show that plasma serotonin increased in the higher intensity group and that correlated with improved impulse control. So of course, for us now in the modern day society that we live in, we're constantly being bombarded with, you know, social media and all these things and like you have to be able to kind of like filter that out and not like just go with the impulse. Like check my social media, check my, you know, and how many likes did I get or whatever. You need to just be able to focus and so that for me, you know, serotonin is important.

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RP

      And so I like to get that vigorous intensity exercise as well.

    8. AH

      I'd

  5. 14:40 – 17:03

    Sponsors: Our Place & Lingo

    1. AH

      like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place. Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products. As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. So it's very important to avoid them. This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place. Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free. I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro. It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating. Instead, it uses pure titanium. That means it has no harmful forever chemicals, and it does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time. It's also beautiful to look at. I cook my eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning. The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan. Right now, Our Place is having their biggest sale of the season. You can save up to 40% site-wide now through April 12th. Just head to fromourplace.com/huberman. Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to save up to 40%. Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo. One of the most important factors in your short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose over time. Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy. You want your glucose relatively stable across the day without big peaks or valleys. This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor and app from Lingo by Abbott. Lingo provides minute-by-minute glucose data directly within the app, showing you how your glucose responds to food, exercise, and stress. This information can help you make smarter choices to support your health both now and in the long term. The CDC estimates that more than one in three American adults has prediabetes and that many of these people don't know they are living with prediabetes. Visibility about how your diet and activity affect your glucose can be the first step toward informed conversations with your doctor and making smarter daily choices. If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK 10% off a four-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.

  6. 17:03 – 18:45

    Phones While Training?

    1. AH

      I love that you mentioned other, other functions of serotonin because as you point out, it is so heavily associated with this mood aspect and certainly has a role there. But, um, the impulse control piece is, I think, is a non-trivial aspect to, uh, the effects of exercise and just generally. I'm curious, do you, um, bring your phone or feel compelled to check your phone during workouts or are you able to just say, "I'm compartmentalizing now. This is the workout." You might put on music or ch- maybe text here or there if you need to, but are you able to compartmentalize or, um, do you struggle with the, the phone during workouts?

    2. RP

      Oh, I don't bring my phone to my workout at all. Like I don't... Now I do have a watch that I wear-

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm

    4. RP

      ... that, you know, if there's like an emergency I'll get a text message.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RP

      Oftentimes I put it on silent, like I, on no notifications because I don't want to be bothered. But I don't, I don't really check my phone. Um, I, I, I don't really like checking things like social media. For me it's just a distraction and frankly, I think it's ter- terrible for people's [chuckles] brains even though like my business kind of depends on it somewhat. I think ter- I think social media is not really good for people, to be honest.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RP

      Uh, so I don't really check my phone or bring my phone to my workouts. My workouts are... I like to chat with my friends when I'm working out with them-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm

    10. RP

      ... and that's fun. Yeah.

    11. AH

      That's in real life.

    12. RP

      Yes. That's in r-

    13. AH

      IRL as the-

    14. RP

      That's in, that's in, yeah [laughs]

    15. AH

      ... as the kids say.

    16. RP

      That's in real life.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RP

      And, um, yeah, phones, phones for me are not something that I bring to my workout.

    19. AH

      Great. Yeah. I've, um, been experimenting with not allowing the phone in my gym and just the workouts go so much better and I find that the mental and physical resetting aspect of working out just seems to be enhanced. But, um, sounds like you were already there and I'm just arriving. So

  7. 18:45 – 27:00

    Rhonda's Strength Training, Low-Reps, Modifications, Mental Resilience

    1. AH

      I have a couple other specific questions about your workouts because, uh, for my own interest, and I know many people will wonder, for the dedicated weight workoutsAre these whole body workouts? And you said low reps. Uh, maybe you could just tell us what low reps is for you, and then the, uh, seems like the, the ever-present question is to failure, close to failure? I mean, um, just to, you know, round out that, that portion of the, of the workout picture.

    2. RP

      The workouts that I'm doing with my strength training workouts with my coach, you know, it, it really depends. Most of those workouts are... They're, they're multi-joint workouts, so I am most of the time doing, you know, some either front squat, back squat, or I'm cleaning it as well, right? Which obviously the lake- the weight goes down if I'm doing-- if I'm cleaning it, 'cause it's hard to clean.

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. RP

      It's also the har- Like, it's the thing that I hate doing the most. [laughs]

    5. AH

      Cleans.

    6. RP

      Oh, yeah. Cleans with front squat because it's really hard, and... For me. I mean, for others who've been doing it for years, I'm sure it's like, you know, they love it, but for me it's very hard. I've only been doing cleans since, you know, February twenty twenty-four. So I'm pretty new to it, and so it's mentally like I have to overcome that challenge. Which by the way, once I started doing all this sort of weight training, I've always been an endurance junkie. Like, I like-- I used to like to go long runs and, you know, races and stuff like that, so for me that's like my safe spot, right? That's what comes easy to me. Uh, weight training and resistance training, strength training, definitely not something that I've done my whole life. I'm so glad that I started doing it, but very, very challenging for me. And so I would say the biggest effect was on my brain and the ability to handle stress better.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RP

      Where it was, like, unbelievable 'cause it was so hard, and I, I just didn't wanna do these cleans, you know, and, and, and these front squats. Um, and then the rest of my day was not as hard, and that to me was like the biggest surprise for this type of training. But anyway, so, um, I do a variety of, um... If I'm doing, if I'm going heavier, then it, you know, depends. Sometimes I'll start off, it's like, okay, we start off, we do five reps, and then we go down to four, and then we go down to three, and then we go down to one. Right.

    9. AH

      Oh, you're doing singles?

    10. RP

      We do. Mm-hmm.

    11. AH

      Okay.

    12. RP

      I kn- Yeah. Yeah.

    13. AH

      Awesome.

    14. RP

      And that's the hardest.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RP

      It's the hardest. But then there's, there's, like, my coach be like, "It's just one. It's just one." You know, sometimes we'll do like six, five, and then we do four twice-

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm

    18. RP

      ... and then we do three twice, right?

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RP

      And so it all depends, you know, also on the day. There's some days where I'm just like, "You know, can we do lower reps and, like, lighter weight?" Right? Where I'm just like, it's, "This is the day for me. I, I'm, I'm stressed. I'm not, I'm not here." Like...

    21. AH

      Right.

    22. RP

      So you kind of have to modify your workout, right? According to how you feel that day. Um, but I would say that those, the majority of my strength training workouts are, are deadlifting. You know, I love deadli- deadlifting. I think I'm pretty good at, at pulling that weight up, lifting that weight up.

    23. AH

      It's a straight bar, hex bar-

    24. RP

      I do straight bar

    25. AH

      ... mixed grip. There's so many variables, but yeah.

    26. RP

      Straight bar.

    27. AH

      Yeah.

    28. RP

      Straight bar.

    29. AH

      All right.

    30. RP

      And, um, th- it's the same deal with that. Like, most of the time with strength training we'll do, you know, we start off at, like, five or six and then work our way down, and then I'll, I usually do a drop set after, you know, any of those sessions where I'll do 10 and then it's, like, a lot lighter, right?

  8. 27:00 – 33:32

    Daily Protein Intake, Intermittent Fasting, Processed Carbohydrates

    1. AH

      is probably a good opportunity to talk about protein because I have a very specific question about protein. We all hear one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight or lean body weight. That's sort of what we're... kind of what's thrown at us. By doing the heavier weight training, do you notice that your protein appetite has increased? Like appetite specifically for protein foods.

    2. RP

      I don't know that I have. You know, I interestingly have been doing a little bit more intermittent fasting in... which, you know, people think about intermittent fasting, they think about it as just one thing, one intervention. I think it's two. There's a behavioral aspect-

    3. AH

      Mm

    4. RP

      ... to it where it's a tool to sort of lower the amount of calories you're taking in. The other one would be this metabolic switch. But so I've actually, since, I don't know, September maybe, last September of 2025, been, been doing more intermittent fasting, and what I mean by that is just really just eating less. And, um, the reason for that is because I noticed that everything that I was doing, which was, you know... I mean, I eat healthy, I exercise a lot, and yet I was sort of gaining more fat in the, the belly section, right, the visceral fat. And the only thing that really helped me stop that, put the, put the brakes on, was c- getting more in a caloric deficit. Um, so maybe my drive to do that kind of is skewing whether or not my appetite for protein would go up. But I personally am on the scale of 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram body weight, which for me-

    5. AH

      Per kilogram, okay

    6. RP

      ... per kilogram, which is probably a little bit less than the pound.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm. You know, it's, it's a kind of a throwaway, uh-

    8. RP

      A gram per-

    9. AH

      ... statement. A gram-

    10. RP

      ... per pound

    11. AH

      ... of quality protein, um, as defined as something with, you know, lots of the essential amino acids and, uh, uh, so forth, uh, per pound or per lean pound of body mass. Um-

    12. RP

      Yeah. So-

    13. AH

      Which is something I think I and many other people shoot for, but I'm curious how religious you are about the, you know, getting a certain protein amount or per meal.

    14. RP

      Basically it wasn't working for me in terms of, like, I was really trying to get... aim for, like, the higher end of the-

    15. AH

      Mm

    16. RP

      ... for me, you know, 1.6 grams per kilogram body weight or even a little bit above that. And what I found, what was happening is that I was actually gaining, gaining more weight because I think-

    17. AH

      Mm

    18. RP

      ... I was consuming more calories at the same time.

    19. AH

      Mm.

    20. RP

      If s- if, if you're getting it from whole foods, right, like, that's just kind of naturally gonna happen. Uh, and so I had to slide down. Um, but I'm still, I'm still, like I said, I'm still getting within that range of, like, probably on average maybe 1.3, 1.4 grams per kilogram body weight, and it's really, it's really worked well for me. But, like, people are different, and you have different goals-

    21. AH

      Mm

    22. RP

      ... right? You know, like, I'm gaining muscle mass, and I feel like all my training is, like, the most important thing, and I think that we need... Generally speaking, I think people should become more obsessed with training and less obsessed with protein. Like, the protein will complement the training.

    23. AH

      Mm.

    24. RP

      And as you mentioned, if you're training, perhaps your appetite for protein will increase, and so you'll start to eat, you know, more protein and less refined carbohydrates. I already wasn't eating a lot of refined, ultra-processed foods in the first place.

    25. AH

      Mm.

    26. RP

      Probably not the answer [laughs] you were expecting, but it's, it's really, uh, for me, like, I, I just... Focusing on getting more protein was, was not working for my body, um, in terms of... But then again, I'm 47 years old. You know, that perimenopause phase, very different than someone who's 37 maybe.

    27. AH

      I don't know the answer to that. I, I, um, I do know that I hear from more and more people these days that they are having a hard time getting that one gram of protein per pound of body weight. It feels like a lot to them is what they're saying. They feel like they're kind of forcing themselves to do it.

    28. RP

      You shouldn't feel that way.

    29. AH

      Exactly. So I'm actually really pleased with your answer, uh, not because I have an agenda here, but because I-I and many other people seem to feel like unless there's a lot of resistance training or tremendous demands like hiking, you know, while backpacking, where if you burn tons of calories, you're carrying... You're basically rocking like nine hours a day, right?

    30. RP

      Right.

  9. 33:32 – 42:58

    Lipopolysaccharide (LPS); Gut Permeability, Gluten; Cardiovascular Health

    1. AH

      I don't do any animal experiments anymore, and I'm actually grateful to not do them. So I didn't like working on animals, but it was what we did until I decided to work on humans. But we used to inject LPS, um, to stimulate an inflammatory response to kind of prime a regeneration response that you could get through macrophages and things like that. And so LPS is a very potent way to generate local or even systemic inflammation. I think, um, hearing that some starches will stimulate LPS, that's, uh, interesting. And it-

    2. RP

      Well, let me clarify

    3. AH

      ... squares with my experience.

    4. RP

      Let me clarify. [laughs]

    5. AH

      I'm not challenging. No, no, no. I'm, I'm not challenging. It squares with my experiences. I'm one of these, I never get stomach aches, I never get headaches. If I do, something's badly wrong with my stomach or my head. [laughs] But if I eat certain starches, I'll be like, "Ugh," like I feel lousy, and I'm wondering if it's this.

    6. RP

      So we have about a gram of LPS in our gut.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm. Sure.

    8. RP

      Like, that's on average, 'cause, you know, l- lipopolysaccharide is the outer component of a cell membrane of-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm

    10. RP

      ... gram-negative bacteria, right?

    11. AH

      A yeast. Yeah.

    12. RP

      We have a lot of bacteria in our gut.

    13. AH

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    14. RP

      Gram-negative bacteria, right?

    15. AH

      Yeah.

    16. RP

      Trillions of bacteria in our gut.

    17. AH

      Sure.

    18. RP

      So, um, when, when we eat food, typically, like, our gut epithelial cells, they ha- we have a tight junction that's holding them together. When we eat food, they transiently open and then close. Like, it's kind of a normal response, right?

    19. AH

      Yeah.

    20. RP

      Um, the, the... I would say the opposite end of the spectrum of that would be, like, celiac, where-

    21. AH

      Mm

    22. RP

      ... they eat gluten or something. It opens up and stays open, and so you get, like, a ton of LPS leakage into the system, which causes massive inflammation. It just happens with meals in general. You do get somewhat of a-

    23. AH

      Mm

    24. RP

      ... LPS response from a meal.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RP

      Now, the type of meal does matter, so when I, when I say refined carbohydrates, it's not necessarily, like, healthy, you know, car- carbohydrates like vegetables. It's like you're eating something that is refined sugar, typically with saturated fat. So those types of foods really cause, like, LPS response. You know, it's, it's, it's inflammation. It's bad.

    27. AH

      Mm.

    28. RP

      It's hard on the gut. But the postprandial inflammatory response essentially is that LPS getting into the system, activating the immune system, which draws the energy. I mean, it's like, it's very energy consuming-

    29. AH

      What?

    30. RP

      ... to activate your immune system, right? Which is why... That's why when you're sick, you're so sleepy too, right?

  10. 42:58 – 44:21

    Sponsor: AG1

    1. AH

      As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great. It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition. Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods. I certainly do that every day. But I'm often asked, "If you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been oh-so-critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance. I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. Again, that's drinkag1, with the numeral one, .com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

  11. 44:21 – 47:26

    Tight Junctions, Gut, Neuroinflammation

    1. AH

      Thank you for explaining that so clearly because I don't think anyone has ever explained how exactly gut health is signaling cardiovascular health or pushing or pulling down on or raising cardiovascular health. As a neuro guy, I think about the vagus nerve as the primary conduit between gut and brain, and it, uh, I was recalling that LPS injected into the gut is how you actually experimentally induce a fever because the... And if you cut the vagus, no fever. So there's this, there seems to be something about the way that the gut communicates with, with the brain and other organs that is critically dependent on the, uh, some threshold level of, of, of LPS. Um, thank you also for reminding us that LPS is present in the gut because we have yeast in our gut, some amount of, of yeast. You mentioned tight junctions, and the way I think about tight junctions, please correct me because I'm gonna get some or all of this wrong, is that essentially, uh, they form a, like a, a cellular fence in the gut, and that transient opening or partial opening of these is a normal process. But it sounds like after a meal, some bacteria, when you say leaks out into our system, it's literally going into the bloodstream. So now we're have bacteria circulating, and if some of that is small enough to get across the blood-brain barrier, that's another way that bacteria can start to cause inflammation at the, at the brain level.

    2. RP

      It's LPS, which is like the outer component of bacteria that have died.

    3. AH

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    4. RP

      Um, actual live bacteria getting in, I don't know as much about that perhaps as well, but I know that the LPS is getting in. And I do know that the LPS, you know, activating the immune system and stuff and the resident gl-glial, glial cells and stuff in the, in the brain, um, does break down the blood-brain barrier. It's like the early... Like, we know neuroinflammation is really some of the early parts of breaking down of the blood-brain barrier, which is the early stages of neurodegenerative disease. It is how the gut is... gut health is linked to the brain and to neurodegenerative disease as well. So, um, it's the inflammation, I think, that's really, um, it's, it's really powerful in terms of it's, it's a driver of the aging process in general. Like this inflammation, inflammaging, you've heard, you've heard of inflammaging. You know, I think, I think now it's pretty clear to me that is if you're thinking about the molecular events that are leading to these hallmarks of aging, which lead to the phenotypes and, you know, frailty and the diseases, right? Like type 2 diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's disease. Like y- go upstream of that, and the inflammation is at the core of it. And so we hear this word inflammation a lot, and it's like, what does it mean, you know? And it's a lot... It means a lot of things. It's not just the gut. The gut is a, a component of it, but there's other things as well, right? I mean, you can have stress, um, cr- you know, any emotional stress, like that can lead to inflammation, um, s- not getting enough sleep, right? There's a lot of things that can, that can lead to inflammation. And, um, so it is kind of an important point to think about is, is really like trying to have your inflammation low, right? And how do you do that?

    5. AH

      I'm gonna

  12. 47:26 – 54:55

    L-glutamine, Immune System, Cancer Risk

    1. AH

      take three different jumping-off points here, all related to what you said. So, um, don't think I'm a random, uh, subject generator here. We will get back to fasting, I promise. Lately, you've posted a bit about glutamine as a potential tool to perhaps buffer the immune system under times of stress. I've also, um, been interested in, uh, L-glutamine as a way to reinforce tight junctions in the gut.

    2. RP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      I don't know if that literature is robust or not. I have to say, I started taking L-glutamine years ago in times when I was working a lot and not sleeping enough because someone told me it would help me not get sick, and indeed, I didn't get sick as much as the imaginary control experiment that I never got to do [chuckles] . Meaning, I don't know if it helped or not, but I continue to take, uh, L-glutamine, uh, when I'm feeling run down. I take a couple of other things too. But could you tell us about how or if or how L-glutamine is important for gut health, and if and how L-glutamine might be helpful for, uh, reinforcing the immune system?

    4. RP

      There's not a ton of evidence in terms of like what's in the scientific literature supporting these statements, but there is some.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RP

      You know, and it's enough to kind of go, "Well, I'm gonna try to maybe experiment with it." So, you know, I first became interested in, in glutamine because when I was doing my graduate research, I was doing a lot of cancer metabolism studies, and I would do nutrient withdrawal, and I would, you know, remove glucose from cancer cells and see what would happen. And it's like, okay, well, I would get... I would remove glucose from, from-you know, lymphoma cancer cells in the Petri dish, and a lot of them would die, but they wouldn't all die. And I was like, "Why aren't they all dying?" Turns out, well, they had glutamine there, so glutamine was enough to sustain them. Um, and, and so glutamine can be converted into many things. So glutamine can be an amino acid, right? It's amino acid. Glutamine can be converted into the, um, i- the Krebs cycle, so it can be converted into intermediates that are used to make energy by the mitochondria, and glutamine can be converted into glutamate, right? Neurotransmitter, right? So there's a lot of pathways and different fates for glutamine. So I, um, became interested in, in that because it was like, oh, glutamine's important for the survival of these cancer cells. Um, then I was doing a lot of activating immune cell studies as, you know, ob- uh, my, my graduate advisor, uh, is an im-immunologist by training, and so I was also doing that. Turns out glutamine was essential for the activation of immune cells. So that was kind of always in the background of my mind, and then in my postdoc, I did my postdoc with Dr. Bruce Ames, and my colleague, Dr. Mark Shigenaga, was doing a lot of gut work, and this is why I know a lot about the LPS and the gut. Like, it's from him. Like, brilliant guy. He's now a photographer, like not in science at all, but brilliant guy and did a lot of really amazing experiments looking at, you know, gut permeability and things that can help buffer, you know, gut permeability, and one of those things were glutamine. So glutamine can get converted into these intermediates that are used by mitochondria in the gut epithelial cells, and so that's like an easy source of energy as well-

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm

    8. RP

      ... for the gut. Now, these are all animal studies, right? So take it with a grain of salt, right? Like, 'cause at some point, you know... In my, in my opinion, animal studies are, are k- are really important for understanding the mechanism behind why things work, and we need human studies, you know, as well. Looking at the totality of evidence is important. It's the human studies that we're lacking. There's not a ton of them there. The ones that I have found more compelling, um, not necessarily... I mean, with the gut health, it's, it's, you know, it's sparse-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm

    10. RP

      ... with humans. Um, I found more compelling with respect to glutamine in human studies was the immune system, and this is where I started putting, connecting the dots, right? Where I started coming across this literature of these endurance athletes who do get a higher amount of respiratory tract infections, you know? Like, when I mean endurance athletes, I mean these guys that are, like, out running marathons all year. Like, they're just constantly training-

    11. AH

      Yeah

    12. RP

      ... for a marathon, right?

    13. AH

      Yeah.

    14. RP

      And so they're really, like, th- they're putting a lot of demand, right, energetic expenditures happening at a really high rate. So, um, they're, they're more prone to respiratory infections, and there's a few studies out there showing that if these athletes take a higher dose of glutamine, I think it's, like, 30 grams or something high like that, that they had a lower incidence of respiratory tract infections-

    15. AH

      Interesting

    16. RP

      ... compared to the ones that weren't doing it. And then I went back to my, "Oh, I know that glutamine's really important for T cell activation," and I was like, "I'm gonna take this," because being, being a, being a mom and having a child that's, it, bringing everything home like a vector, you know, you're, like, desperate. So-

    17. AH

      You're the experiment.

    18. RP

      Yeah, exactly. And, and I never used to get sick, ever.

    19. AH

      Yeah.

    20. RP

      Like, I would never get sick, and then all of a sudden I was getting sick, like, three times a year, and I was like, "Do I have cancer? Like, what's going on?" Like, I, I literally was, like, worried.

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RP

      Um, and, and then I started taking glutamine. Now, I take it just... I only take five grams on a daily basis, but if, if my son's sick, if there's any exposure, if it's, like, during the season, if I'm traveling, I go up to 15, I go up to 20.

    23. AH

      All at once? 'Cause it can be a little-

    24. RP

      No

    25. AH

      ... hard on the gut.

    26. RP

      No.

    27. AH

      Right?

    28. RP

      Not all at once.

    29. AH

      Yeah.

    30. RP

      Not all at once. I usually do it, like, in fives.

  13. 54:55 – 1:00:08

    N-acetylcysteine (NAC), Vitamin E; Antioxidant Balance, Reductive Stress

    1. AH

      went on mic, we were talking about NAC, N-acetylcysteine. Um-I take it once a day, uh, consistently, but I'll take it three times a day if I'm traveling a lot and, because I'm around sick people when I travel, especially in winter, um, or if I feel like I'm getting run down. And there, the data are pretty interesting. There's at least one study, uh, showing that it reduced flu transmission, um, where people were deliberately exposed to flu. I think it took the number of people that contracted flu compared to the placebo group somewhere from the high 70% area, um, don't remember the exact number now, we'll put a link to the study, down to maybe high 20s.

    2. RP

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      Which is pretty impressive. And an ER doc came on this podcast, uh, Roger Seheult, who, um, and said he was a big proponent of, of, uh, N-acetylcysteine for people that are around sick people.

    4. RP

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      Do you take NAC?

    6. RP

      Uh, so my only concern with taking it on a daily basis is it is a pretty powerful antioxidant.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RP

      And, you know, I think that we need to understand, like, antioxidants and the opposite, which would be generating oxidation, right?

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RP

      Like, it's not, it's not like oxidation is bad. It's bad when it's constant slow drip oxidation-

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm

    12. RP

      ... that's damaging, you know, other parts of our body, DNA, proteins, lipids. Some oxidation you want, like if you're exercising, right?

    13. AH

      Sure.

    14. RP

      There's a burst of oxidation.

    15. AH

      To get the adaptation.

    16. RP

      To get the adaptations.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RP

      And so my concern would be, for one, maybe timing it around your exercise-

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm

    20. RP

      ... so not taking it close to when you're exercising. And these studies come out of, you know, studies that have been done with high-dose vitamin E plus vitamin C. I haven't seen a lot of vitamin C studies alone that are blunting exercise adaptations. There's maybe one at a high dose. Most of the time it's vitamin C and vitamin E. Vitamin E, alpha-tocopherol, when I say high dose, usually it's 400 IUs. Just to give you a reference point, the RDA is like 24 IUs or something, so we're talking high dose.

    21. AH

      But a supplement can be 200 to 800, so it wouldn't be hard to blunt that exercise effect by accidentally. Yeah, I don't take vitamin E. It, it spiked my prostate s- specific antigen, which I was told is a, is a known effect among urologists.

    22. RP

      The SELECT trial was done.

    23. AH

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    24. RP

      So the SELECT trial was, um, was looking at selenium and vitamin E and if it could slow the progression of prostate cancer, and it turned out that, um, the opposite was found, and it was really kind of due to this high dose of alpha-tocopherol, which also has other effects of, um, lowering another type of vitamin E in the body called gamma-tocopherol, which is anti-inflammatory. And I think that has something to do with inflammation actually can increase the PSA, right?

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RP

      So anyways, um, the point here is that with NAC, my only concern would be y- you know, blunting the, the oxidation that you're getting from beneficial... 'Cause I know you're highly active.

    27. AH

      I'm training hard. I don't want my training to be short-circuited from NAC. I'm perfectly happy to only take NAC if I'm feeling run down or exposed to, um, illnesses around me, or I feel like maybe I'm coming down with something.

    28. RP

      So that's when I, that's when I take it, but it's mostly because of... I wasn't f- familiar with the flu, influenza data. That's interesting. I was just, it's good for lung health too.

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RP

      Like, so although if smokers take it, I think it has the opposite effect where, again, it's like the can- the, the pre-cancerous cells are using it to their benefit. You know, we used to think antioxidants, oh, it's so good, you know, just more, more, more.

  14. 1:00:08 – 1:03:36

    Starch, Tool: Bedtime Fast & Cardiovascular Health

    1. AH

      regularly, I, I personally observe that I get stronger, um, at a steady state of, of starch intake. And, uh, I don't like dropping starches too low 'cause I get weak.

    2. RP

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      And I also can't sleep as well if my starches are too low. I just am too wired.

    4. RP

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RP

      There's a, there was a new study on, on eating starches and improving sleep.

    7. AH

      Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that.

    8. RP

      Did you read about it? [laughs]

    9. AH

      Because for several years I talked about that on the podcast and people said, "Oh, you know, he's gorging himself with pasta and then passing out, and that's the worst time." I wasn't saying that. I'm saying that if you're not... If you're r- running like crazy, I'll hear from marathoners and ultra people and people who are doing a million things. They'll say, "I'm not sleeping well," and they're exercising like crazy. It's like, well, when was the last time you had a bowl of pasta? They're like, "Oh, no, I don't eat pasta." And they're like... And then they'll have some rice or some pasta, they're like, "Oh, I slept like a baby." And they, they were having it at lunch.

    10. RP

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      And I just think that the, the brain doesn't shut down well when you have high levels of cortisol, and the cortisol/starch thing is an interesting one.

    12. RP

      I'm so glad you brought this up because I thinkUm, this is something that I did wanna talk about really, and it has to do with stop eating three hours before bed for that very reason. So there was a new, even a new study, but there's been several studies now really showing that this is important for that cardiovascular reset, right? Your parasympathetic activity is supposed to go higher. You're in your rest and recovery phase, right? When you're eating food, that's the sympathetic activity, right? You're di- it, it... That's activating the sympathetic nervous system.

    13. AH

      As you're eating. Yeah.

    14. RP

      Yeah.

    15. AH

      Yeah.

    16. RP

      And even as you're digesting, so if you think about it, like, you digest in, what it takes, like, five or so hours to fully finish about di-

    17. AH

      Yeah, depending on the meal. Yeah

    18. RP

      ... Depending on the meal, right. So if you're eating, you know, right before you go to bed, you are, you are, you are not in that parasym- sympathetic activity, you know-

    19. AH

      Mm

    20. RP

      ... s- part of the, part of the, you know, the cycle that you wanna be in. So, um, there was a new, even a new study that I shared, like, I don't know, couple days ago even, showing that if you stop eating three hours before bed... So these people were actually, um, it's interesting. Their... They had their blood pressure measured for starting in the mid-afternoon all the way throughout the night. This is the first study that really not just one endpoint looking at-

    21. AH

      Mm

    22. RP

      ... blood pressure, but just mea- measuring it continuously. I don't know if it was every 15 minutes or something like that. But, um, it was found that their, during sleep, if they had stopped eating three hours before bed versus the group that did not stop eating three hours before bed, their blood pressure dipped, like, lower.

    23. AH

      Mm.

    24. RP

      So you get that, you know, that baroreflex dipping, right? So this is, like, part of the parasympathetic activation. As you know, very important for, you know, the blood pressure to go down. Heart rate went down, like, you know, much, much lower, and that reset is so, so important for cardiovascular health. I think what was found was it was something like, um, translated to, like, 20% lower risk of cardiovascular events, like heart attacks. So it's really pretty significant.

    25. AH

      That's impressive.

    26. RP

      Yeah. And it really is an easy thing to do to think about stopping eating, you know, th- three hours before you go to bed. Like, that's, that's something I think that is not that hard to implement.

    27. AH

      Mm.

    28. RP

      And it will improve your sleep as well as your cardiovascular health. Although, I think in that study, I don't know that sleep was really... It was subjective, and I don't think it really was i- improved more.

    29. AH

      Mm.

    30. RP

      But other studies have found that as well.

  15. 1:03:36 – 1:08:09

    Cortisol, Intermittent Fasting Benefits

    1. AH

      Yeah, I think people hear, uh, and I understand why the nomenclature and the buzzwords of, you know, fight or flight for sympathetic and rest and digest for parasympathetic, but-

    2. RP

      Yeah

    3. AH

      ... yeah, the evidence shows eating stimulates the sympathetic nervous system.

    4. RP

      It, yeah. Digests.

    5. AH

      It's not a stress event, but it, it's a... It requires energy.

    6. RP

      It's a-

    7. AH

      Anything that requires energy raises body temperature, and your body's doing work, and you-

    8. RP

      It's an awake event, right?

    9. AH

      An awake event.

    10. RP

      It's an awake event.

    11. AH

      Right, yeah.

    12. RP

      You, you don't eat-

    13. AH

      That's a great way to put it

    14. RP

      ... while you're-

    15. AH

      Yeah

    16. RP

      ... sleeping.

    17. AH

      Yeah, and that's why these phrases, while I don't demonize anyone for creating the, you know, fight or flight, m- well, I mean, there's ways that you want your sympathetic nervous system activated that are not about fight or flight. Like, I actually think if people just got the first hour of their day more active and energized, bright light-

    18. RP

      Yeah

    19. AH

      ... exercise, caffeine if you're me, and Lord knows I'm grateful that caffeine exists, in the first hour of the day or first hours if you can't manage that because of schedule, and then the last hour of the day was strongly parasympathetic, I mean, everything would get better without having to think a ton about exactly how you're doing that, 'cause on a given day, you just do what you can, right?

    20. RP

      And that's what you want, right?

    21. AH

      Yeah.

    22. RP

      I mean, so cortisol is circadian dependent-

    23. AH

      Mm

    24. RP

      ... as you know. I mean, in the m- like, early morning of, early hours of the morning, that's when you want it to peak, right?

    25. AH

      Mm.

    26. RP

      The part of the awakening response.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RP

      Like, you want it to go up. And it's, it's interesting, I, I, I... The, the reason I'm going on this is 'cause it's a little bit of a, um, soapbox for me, but so with, with the, with the cortisol activation, um, people don't realize this. You know, obviously it's a hormone, and it's binding to dif- two different receptors. There's the glucocorticoid receptor, and then there's the mineralocorticoid receptor. And both of those, um, when cortisol binds to it, they go into the nucleus of the cell, and they're changing the expression, so they're activating genes and deactivating genes, like 20% of the human genome. It's a large percentage, right? And this is on multiple different organs, so it's... It- cortisol has a very important role, and you want that peak. You want that spike, right?

    29. AH

      Mm.

    30. RP

      That's what you want, and then you want it to shut off. And there are things that can activate it, obviously, like in the morning, going out, bright light exposure, as you mentioned. Like, that's very important for that cortisol awakening response. But you can also ex- like, like, intensity, intense exercise can switch it on. Um, but what's interesting... And so can intermittent fasting, that it... What's interesting is there's studies from Mark Mattson's lab showing that, you know, the types of s- of, of stressors that are beneficial, these hormetic stressors, like exercise, like, you know, intermittent fasting, um, perhaps even cold exposure, like, these types of exposures change the receptor density of the res-

  16. 1:08:09 – 1:13:35

    Cortisol, Train Fasted?; Hormones, Visceral Fat

    1. AH

      Yeah, I guess same goes for intermittent fasting. And maybe you could share with us what your intermittent fasting protocol is. I know that recently cortisol has been like increasingly demonized as the stress hormone, stress hormone, and people saw pictures of people with Cushing's disease, which is, you know, a drastically elevated cortisol, and the moon face, and the excessive visceral fat and, and this-

    2. RP

      Yeah

    3. AH

      ... this sort of, um, fear-mongering around cortisol was particularly directed toward women, and this entered the health fitness space because I think in an appropriate way, I'll just be very direct here, I don't like... I no longer tap dance around who said... You know what? In a very appropriate way, um, that I appreciate, uh, Dr. Stacy Sims came on the podcast and she said, "Listen, some women shouldn't train fasted because they don't feel well when they train fasted, and their cortisol is too high, and so forth." That captured a lot of people's experience, a lot of women in particular, but some men certainly were like, "Yes. Oh my God, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you." But then the, the, the message got contorted, right?

    4. RP

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      As it does.

    6. RP

      Yes.

    7. AH

      Right?

    8. RP

      Yes.

    9. AH

      And then it became women shouldn't train fasted. And then we had, uh, Lauren Clemso-Semple on this podcast who's a, you know, trained as a PhD. She has a background in nutrition, physiology, strength training coach, et cetera. And she said, "No, listen, you can train fasted or not fasted as a woman or a man. It's kind of your preference." But that we don't need to fear these cortisol spikes. And forgive me for going long here, but I think it is important that people hear this, um, again, which is there's also this idea that deliberate cold exposure increases cortisol. But when you look at the data, it definitely increases adrenaline-

    10. RP

      Yeah

    11. AH

      ... and peripheral dopamine, and probably, I'll go on record here, probably central dopamine, although we don't have as good evidence for that yet. But the evidence points to the fact that deliberate cold exposure lowers cortisol.

    12. RP

      Mm.

    13. AH

      So this then, you know, because... And again, I think Stacy appropriately said a lot of women who want to use cold shouldn't go as cold, but the message got contorted and it became women shouldn't do deliberate cold exposure because of the cortisol increase. And so part of the reason I'm going long here is I'm trying to correct the narrative on her behalf. She said, "Do what works for you," [chuckles] right? And that's what Lauren's saying, and I'm guessing, um, that's what you'll say as well. Um, but I just need to get that out there because the message has gotten totally pretzel twisted up. And cortisol is neither good nor bad. You want it high in the morning, you want it low at night, um, in general. Um, it sounds like you train fasted?

    14. RP

      I listen to how I feel.

    15. AH

      Yeah.

    16. RP

      That's exactly what I do.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RP

      So what, what your podcast guest and-

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm

    20. RP

      ... and the researchers are talking about is exactly, there are times when I wake up in the morning and I'm like, "I need to eat something before I work out."

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RP

      And I do. Um, but I oftentimes do train fasted, for one, because I am practicing intermittent fasting again, but I do it... I'm not like starving myself. And like I said, the reason... There's multiple reasons I do it. One reason is because it really did help me lose the belly fat, which is the visceral fat, which is like the worst kind of fat you can have, and we can talk more about that.

    23. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. RP

      Um, but the second reason is I love the cognitive benefits I have in the morning with it.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RP

      And it's the main reason I do it. And so there are many times when I do train fasted, but I am not out running 15 miles. Most of my, my, like I said, my sessions are about an hour long. And am I taking a little bit of a performance hit with the high intensity? Probably. Probably, yes. But it's not much to matter for me.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RP

      And you do burn a little bit more fat if you train fasted. I mean, that's known.

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RP

      Um, you will, if it is a longer session, you will take an a per- performance enhancement hit. That is also known, right? So I think it really does come down to like what is your goal, how do you feel, and, and then you kind of go with that. And I, I completely agree. Like there are times when, you know, I'm on my cycle and I feel fine and I'm working out just fine, and there are ti- other times when I'm like, "I don't feel good. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it easier." But I still train, I just... You listen to your body and I- that's a pretty easy-

  17. 1:13:35 – 1:21:13

    Visceral Fat, Perimenopause/Menopause, Insulin Resistance in Brain & Body

    1. AH

      Please. Yeah.

    2. RP

      Yeah. It's, it's... So with the visceral fat... And like I said, you know, visceral fat is something if you really directly want to measure it, you do a DEXA scan. But-You know, for the average person that isn't gonna go out and do a DEXA scan waist circumference is a proxy. It's used in a lot of studies. So women that have a waist circumference of 35 inches or above are considered to have a higher amount of visceral fat. Men that have a waist circumference of 40 inches or above are considered to have higher amount of visceral fat. It's also that belly fat. Like, you can, you can... You just know, right? Um, interestingly, like, 70% of women over the age of 50 have high visceral fat, 50% of men over the age of 50 do. You know, again, coming down to women go through menopause, estrogen plays an important role in telling the body, you know, to store the fat subcutaneously rather than viscerally deep around organs. And so as women transition to perimenopause, you know, the, the years before menopause, and menopause, it, th- their estrogen goes down, and that does change the way the body stores fat. And any woman that's going through either of those stages knows it, and it's also why you see often women over the age of 50 with more belly fat, right? I mean, that's something that I think it's, it's hard to deny. But, um, it's, it's one of the reasons why I kind of went back to practicing intermittent fasting because there's a, there's a f- couple of ways that you can really powerfully lose visceral fat, and one of them is doing aerobic exercise, high intensity interval training also really powerfully can do it, but also being in a caloric deficit. And I think when you start to get the combination of both, that's what really worked for me. It's crazy how quickly you can gain it based on your diet as well. So it is different from the subcutaneous fat in many ways. Uh, I've mentioned it's secreting these inflammatory molecules, its, you know, hormones, but it's also constantly breaking down triglycerides into free fatty acids. And the location of it is very dangerous because it's right surrounding the liver, right? It's this deep organ fat, and that's very close to the portal vein, and so you're constantly getting this sort of mainlining free fatty acids to the liver. And visceral fat is very different from subcutaneous fat because it doesn't respond to insulin like subcutaneous fat does. In other words, when you have a meal, you eat a carbohydrate meal, and you... Basically, your body increases insulin to help take it up glucose into your liver, uh, muscle, adipose tissue. Lipolysis shuts down, right? It's like, okay, no longer am I gonna break down these fats. It's time to use this energy, right? Visceral fat doesn't respond to insulin, so it just keeps going, right? And these free fatty acids, because they're going right to the liver, uh, it's, it's essentially atta- antagonizing the insulin receptors. So it causes insulin receptors to become more resistant to insulin, and this is part of why people with high visceral fat... By the way, you can gain visceral fat without gaining a pound, and-

    3. AH

      Hmm

    4. RP

      ... we can talk about those studies. Like, people, people are skinny and can have high amounts of visceral fat. You've, you've heard of, like, lean... Metabolically unhealthy but lean individuals, those people exist, and so you can have a high amount of visceral fat but not really look like you do. So, um, when... You know, obviously the insulin resistance is a problem for many reasons, but it also plays a role in those energy crashes that you experience, right? And that's kind of like some of the first signs of insulin resistance actually have to do with what you're feeling. So we talked about-

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm

    6. RP

      ... lethargy, right? So, you know, the inflammation that's being generated from these, this visceral fat constantly making these, you know, pro-inflammatory compounds are-

    7. AH

      Mm

    8. RP

      ... an e- it's an energy sink, right? So you do constantly feel tired, but also because your cells are becoming insulin resistant, when you have a high glucose meal and you're not responding, the body kind of overcompensates and produces more insulin. So it's like, I, we gotta get this blood glucose out of our system, right? It can cause a lot of damage if it sits around there. And so you make more insulin, and then what happens is you, your blood glucose goes way low 'cause it was, like, this overcompensation, right? And then you feel a crash. You feel, like, this crash, and that signals to the, you know, hypothalamus part of the brain, uh, I need energy, right? So then you, you sort of crave, you get those cravings for those calorically energetic dense foods. What I'm talking about is, like, the experience of, like-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm

    10. RP

      ... you know, insulin resistance.

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. RP

      And what's interesting is that you can cause someone to gain visceral fat and, and their brain can become insulin resistant. So we think a lot about insulin resistance in the muscle, liver. Your brain also can become insulin resistance quite quickly, actually. So, um, insulin's very important in the brain for a lot of reasons, as you know, but, you know, a couple of the things relative to what we're... or relevant to what we're talking about would be, one, is it does act on the hypothalamus and help, you know, tell it to basically, um, stop eating, be satiated. Like, I took a meal in, okay-

    13. AH

      Mm

    14. RP

      ... like, I'm gonna be satiated. But it also plays a role in energy storage and telling the, the body how to store the energy. And so when your brain becomes insulin resistant, it's not doing that, and so you're not being satiated, so you eat more, and you're storing the fat more viscerally. And there was a study that was published actually quite recently. I covered this in a, in a recent newsletter. It was a really interesting study 'cause it was healthy young men, and researchers put them on a, a little bit of a calorically dense, so it was like they were eating 1,200 to 1,500 more calories a day, and it was high saturated fat, high sugar, so it was, uh, processed foods, ultra-processed foods, like, you know, ultimate, right?

    15. AH

      That's a lot of ca- extra calories.

    16. RP

      That's a lot of extra calories. For five days. It is. But what happened was their, they did cause their brain to become insulin resistant, and they didn't gain weight, but they gained visceral fat.

    17. AH

      Mm.

    18. RP

      And they started gaining fat around their liver, and that's something that happens as well because visceral fat is surrounding liver. You're getting a lot of free fatty acids, and they're going right to the liver, so the liver has to store it, right? So you get this non-alcoholic, you know, fatty, fatty liver. But... And that happened after five days. I mean-

    19. AH

      In-

    20. RP

      ... without gaining-

    21. AH

      In otherwise young, healthy-

    22. RP

      Yeah. But, you know, they were eating a lot of calories, extra calories.

    23. AH

      Yeah, that's like a, a 1,200... That's like a half a pizza

    24. AH

      e-extra above your m-maintenance calories per night

    25. RP

      And that's probably what they were doing. They were eating lots of... They were eating, like, saturated fat and, and refined sugar, so-

    26. AH

      Burritos and french fries

    27. RP

      Yeah. I mean, obviously, if you're gonna do the study, you wanna kind of do it to a h-

    28. AH

      Sure

    29. RP

      ... a degree where you're gonna see some change, right?

    30. AH

      Mm-hmm.

  18. 1:21:13 – 1:22:33

    Sponsor: LMNT

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

  19. 1:22:33 – 1:25:42

    Cortisol & Sleep

    1. AH

      Such an important point that you can either not be gaining much or not gaining any, uh, total body weight, but gaining visceral fat. I think that's, uh, first time I've heard that, and it's a vital message for people to hear because this visceral fat sounds like one of the major health hazards we need to worry about. You mentioned elevated... chronically elevated cortisol, sleep deprivation will increase visceral fat. Once again, I know I'm beating a drum here, um, almost to death, but having high cortisol early in the day and low cortisol in the evening is the definition of not chronically high cortisol. The definition of chronically high cortisol is somewhat elevated or elevated cortisol in the morning, but especially in the hours before sleep. And I, I actually have a theory that is not a stretch that one of the main reasons why it's so detrimental to our mental and physical health in the short and long term is because of the ways it disrupts sleep.

    2. RP

      Mm.

    3. AH

      And so-

    4. RP

      Mm-hmm

    5. AH

      ... and we can't tease those apart.

    6. RP

      No.

    7. AH

      You can't do a study where you spike cortisol late in the day. Even if you can fall asleep just fine after the end of a really stressful day, the sleep is different. And people say, "Well, life has stress," and I totally agree. I mean, Lord knows I've experienced life has stress, but getting that last hour of the day doing things to push down on cortisol, push down on stress, lower heart rate, not eating-

    8. RP

      Mm-hmm

    9. AH

      ... in that, certainly in that last hour before sleep, ideally three, um, I feel like that small change can make a, an outsized positive difference.

    10. RP

      That's interesting, like, the, the, the correlation between the high cortisol affecting your sleep and maybe that's also... Like, they're, they're related, and so the sleep loss really does make you... We know, we know from-

    11. AH

      Mm

    12. RP

      ... you know, you probably know who the researchers are that have done those studies on sleep loss and it affecting appetite, right? I mean, like, people-

    13. AH

      Oh, everything gets dysregulated.

    14. RP

      Right.

    15. AH

      I mean, uh, I don't want to take us off course-

    16. RP

      No [laughs]

    17. AH

      ... but I think you might find it interesting that there's a beautiful study where they look... measured metabolism during sleep. They basically had people breathe into a tube, um, during sleep. They had a mask on. And it turns out that the brain cycles through all the different forms of metabolism during sleep. There's a phase of sleep where you're essentially running on sugar. There's a f- uh, you're... Then you're just like a... It almost looks like somebody's ketogenic at one. Basically, the, the middle of the night when we're s- well, it should be at night, when you're sleeping is a, is kind of a test run of all the systems, but they get recalibrated, and it's so important. I actually think, you know, most of the negative effects of alcohol that people talk about, yes, it's a poison. It's a Class 1 carcinogen, um, as classified by the Wo- World Health Organization on a... I think most of the negative effects of drinking are because of the negative effects of alcohol on sleep. I'm not telling people-

    18. RP

      Yeah

    19. AH

      ... drink in the morning, but-

    20. RP

      Yeah

    21. AH

      ... uh, you know, i- and so I, I think that if you get your sleep right, you're not 90% of the way there, but you're halfway there.

    22. RP

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      I really do believe that. And then getting your sleep right makes you do a bunch of other things.

    24. RP

      Right.

    25. AH

      Yeah.

    26. RP

      You're mo- you're mo- more motivated to exercise, for one. [laughs]

    27. AH

      More motivated to exercise, your food choices, I mean, and on and on.

    28. RP

      Food choices. Yeah.

    29. AH

      The, the problem with talking about sleep as so important is people will get sleep anxiety, so we tap dance around this, like, oh, we don't want people stressed. Learn how to fall asleep. Learn how to fall back asleep. These... No one gets it perfect. Yes, you'll survive. Like, without one poor night's sleep or an all-nighter, you're not gonna die. Like, you know, just get good at it on average-

    30. RP

      Yeah

  20. 1:25:42 – 1:36:47

    Intermittent Fasting, Metabolic Switch, Ketones, Muscle Loss?

    1. AH

      tell us what the structure of the intermittent fasting is for you? Does that mean skipping breakfast, skipping lunch, skipping dinner? Because I know a number of people are sort of getting drawn back to intermittent fasting after a couple years of it getting beat up on-

    2. RP

      Mm-hmm

    3. AH

      ... as, like, not the best way to lose fat or it is a... I think it's a terrific way to do the sorts of things that you're describing, and I'm learningToday more about the th- positive things it can do, um, for insulin sensitivity and so forth. If you're on a bout of intermittent fasting, are you doing it by the clock? Are you doing it by feel? What does it look like?

    4. RP

      For me, it-it-it really does depend on the day, and I really do try to stop eating three hours before I go to bed. It doesn't always happen, you know, with family obligations, social obligations, but it's the habit that's important, right? So intermittent fasting, you know, it's more than just one intervention, as I mentioned. It's a behavioral tool that you can use to limit your calorie intake with actually-- without actually having to count all the calories, which some people like to do, some people don't, right? So it's a tool, but also it's really important for a metabolic switch.

    5. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RP

      As you mentioned, insulin sensitivity. And the metabolic switch is something that Dr. Mark Mattson coined, and I love it because I feel like, you know, thinking about intermittent fasting in that way makes it a little more clear as to the benefits of it.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RP

      It depends on the meal you have and how much exercise you do, right? But on average, let's say eleven, twelve hours to deplete your liver glycogen levels. And once that happens, you do start to burn fat and use fatty acids as fuel and make ketone bodies, so you go into ketogenesis, right? And that's a metabolic switch, metabolic flexibility. You're not... You're going from using carbohydrates as fuel to using fatty acids and making ketone bodies as fuel. And that's something that, you know, throughout human evolution was ingrained, right? Like we-

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm

    10. RP

      ... didn't always have access to Uber Eats and Instacart, and you just at a swipe, you get food, right? I mean, there were many times when, you know, people had to not eat [laughs] because they couldn't forage their foods, maybe the time of year, or they couldn't hunt their food because they didn't get a win or whatever, I don't know.

    11. AH

      Yeah.

    12. RP

      So this metabolic flexibility is something that's really ingrained in, in our, in our, our DNA in a sense, right?

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RP

      I mean, one of the reasons I like to do that is the ketone production. And why is that? You know, ketones are really clean... They're clean, a clean way to burn energy.

    15. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RP

      So they generate less oxidative stress, less oxidative products, but they also are energetically favorable in that it takes less energy to use them to make energy than glucose does. So it takes more energy to use glucose as energy than it does ketones. But they're also a signaling molecule, so it's a way for the body, you know, to signal to other parts of the body like, "Hey, this is a stressful time. There's no food. I'm, you know, burn... I'm, I'm in, in ketosis, um, let's, let's make you stronger," right? 'Cause that's kind of what evolution wants. Like, if you're not able to find or eat food, you have to be stronger to be able to do it, right? And so that's, that's kind of at the, I'd say, core of, of this metabolic switch and why it's important. And I think that I really... Like Mark Mattson being the pioneer in this, and as a neuroscientist really looking at the benefits in the brain as well, you know, these ketones like beta-hydroxybutyrate are activating, you know, growth factors like brain-derived neurotrophic factor in the brain. As you know, it's very important for, you know, learning, memory, you know, re-re- synapse formation and stuff. This hugely important for some, um, neuroplasticity. So it's activating beneficial compounds like that and again, um, it-it-it-it's not gonna happen if you're never going into this metabolic switch. And there's other ways to get there, right? So you can limit your, your food, go into this ketosis, right? Where you're basically depleting your liver glycogen. Or you can exercise a lot, right? So your energy expenditure goes up. So there's, there's different ways to get to this metabolic switch.

    17. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RP

      It doesn't necessarily have to be intermittent fasting.

    19. AH

      Got it.

    20. RP

      And I'm telling you this because you're-you... I wanna tell you why I'm, I'm sort of back-

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm

    22. RP

      ... back on the intermittent fasting. And by the way, it's not for everyone. Like I said, I mean, I think that you can find other ways to get this metabolic switch and, um, for me, intermittent fasting works. And so what I do typically is I will do most of the time my fast, my workouts will be fasted, not all the time. It do- it does depend on how I feel.

    23. AH

      What time do you typically wake up?

    24. RP

      So I wake up like s- between 6:00 and 7:00.

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RP

      And if I didn't have a family, like, you know, getting my son ready and I would probably work out right away, but I don't end up working out until like 8:30. So I'm, you know, and I-

    27. AH

      It's still pretty early. What time do you go to sleep, if you don't mind me asking?

    28. RP

      I'm, I'm asleep, like I'm asleep by 10:00.

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RP

      I'm usually in bed at 9:00. Takes an um, an hour of just like, you know, hanging out.

  21. 1:36:47 – 1:45:06

    Tools: Logic-Based Habits; Daily Metabolic Switch; Exercise, Autophagy

    1. AH

      Yeah, I think the, uh, the known increase in adrenaline from being slightly fasted is awesome for cognitive function. Um, I think it allows people to ingest fewer stimulants in the form of caffeine. You can, you know, you don't need as much caffeine when you're-

    2. RP

      Mm-hmm

    3. AH

      ... doing some fasting. I... What you describe is, um, similar to what I do, although I notice these days I'm waking up hungrier and hungrier, and I attribute that actually to my last bite of food, you know, coming a little bit earlier in the day and further from sleep. And also that thermogenic effect of eating raises core body temperature and, and you know to fall asleep you want your body temperature dropping. So it all starts to... What, you know, what I think is kind of, uh, is very exciting to me is that for a few years there it seemed like there were just so many things, so many protocols, so many studies. But when I think about cortisol high in the morning, low in the evening, bracketing the day, the, what works best for sleep, what, what you're describing, certainly today you really, in addition to many other things, really clarified the relationship between gut and inflammation and, and brain and other tissues. Things start to fall into bins that it's, you know, like all of biology, so beautifully organized that it doesn't mean long lists of things for people to do. I love the idea that while it sounds like you're just saying, "Oh, if I wake up and I'm hungry, I eat, and if I'm not, I-"And I think I can train faster. I like to train faster. That might seem like a, like an obvious thing to some, but I think it's so critical because the mechanism that you're chasing in both cases is the same. You're trying to get great sleep, great, great workouts, but you're not trying to optimize the workout to the point where, you know, you disrupt your sleep or you insist on doing something like eating or fasting, whatever it is. So the find out what works for you thing is, is, uh, is so crucial because it's about feel that fits into a logic. And, uh, I have to say, uh, that's initially what drew me to your work, is there's a logic be- you're not just saying, "Okay, this study said this, so I'm gonna do this." It fits into a broader logic that comes from your training. So I just... That's a, just a point of gratitude, and I hope it'll frame in people's minds that, yes, do what you feel, do what works for you, but try and frame it in a certain logic-

    4. RP

      Right

    5. AH

      ... and that w- 'cause that's actually what gives you flexibility over time. Like, oh, you're traveling, you have to eat a little later. Okay, the next morning maybe train fasted or vice versa.

    6. RP

      Yeah, it's about the habit. Exactly.

    7. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RP

      It's about the habit, and there are days when I just like I can't train fasted or there are days where I wake up and I have to eat.

    9. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RP

      Exactly, where you, you, you know. And there are days when I... Nights when I ha- when I'm eating later because of social obligations, and I don't freak out about it-

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm

    12. RP

      ... because it's about the habit.

    13. AH

      I like the idea of one metabolic switch, uh, per day. You know, you said you could get it from exercise-

    14. RP

      Yeah

    15. AH

      ... and I thought, you know, I can really imagine that in five years a concept of, of health that hopefully everyone understands out there is that find a way to generate the metabolic switch once per day. Maybe you fast and exercise.

    16. RP

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      Maybe you just exercise. Maybe you just fast 'cause you can't exercise because people's schedules are constrained, but the notion of the metabolic switch as being... Here's where it fits in exactly. The logic is you want the metabolic switch.

    18. RP

      You do, and it's not just, you know... Th- there's other components to this metabolic switch that we haven't even discussed, which is like when you're in that fasted state, when you're in the ketosis, like that's also repair mode for your body, right?

    19. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RP

      So there's the fed state, the grow, anabolic, and of course we're all obsessed with anabolic now because they're associated with muscle growth, right?

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RP

      But there's also the repair and recovery state, right? And so you don't always want the growth on, right? You want to repair damage, and repairing damage can be damage to DNA. A lot of these genes are activated, you know, when, when you're in a nutrient depriv- deprived state, right? When you're in that metabolic switch. And autophagy, and that's another one that people, some, it's a buzz, it's a buzzword now, but it is something that is activated. It's... First of all, we have basal amount of autophagy going on at any point, right? Like that's happening. Like it's-

    23. AH

      You don't have to fast-

    24. RP

      You don't have to fast

    25. AH

      ... to get it.

    26. RP

      Exactly.

    27. AH

      Or be in a caloric deficit, which will also-

    28. RP

      Right

    29. AH

      ... exacerbate it.

    30. RP

      Right.

  22. 1:45:06 – 1:52:47

    Exercise After Poor Sleep?; Training Breaks

    1. AH

      Yeah. It's interesting. I, I think when people hear, okay, you're most insulin sensitive in the morning, that would be the time to eat your biggest meal. But then people say, "Wait, but then I'm trying to fast befo- and I'm trying to exercise, and, like, how do I do this?" I think that's where for them the confusion comes in. And it... to me, it's very simple. Uh, just because your insulin sensitivity is highest first thing in the morning doesn't mean you have to eat right away. I mean, it just means avoid eating too close to bedtime, [laughs] right?

    2. RP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      Sometime during the day. And also, if you exercise fasted or after a small snack... It's kind of interesting when Stacy Sims said, "Not everyone should exercise fasted." She said, "Especially a lot of women don't like to do that." She didn't say, "Eat a meal." She said, like, "Have a scoop of whey protein with some..." I think she said with, like, some almond milk in it. And it, and it... you couldn't believe the response on the internet. It was like vindication, right? And I get it. It was like it vindicated people's experience. Like, "Oh, thank you, thank you." And i- it told me something really important about the kind of sociology of what we do, which is when something validates people's experience, they, they love it. But it doesn't mean that the things that work for other people don't work, and I think that that's the, the part that gets lost. And so if a study shows that insulin sensitivity is highest in the morning, but you can only exercise first thing in the morning, what do you do? You know? [laughs] So, um, you do the best you can.

    4. RP

      Right.

    5. AH

      Right? I think is what it comes down to. In fact, I b- meant to ask you earlier, and this is a good time to, um, to talk about this. Uh, you've described that if you are slightly sleep deprived, so not f- four hours per night or an all-nighter, but if you've only slept five, or let's say you're getting a, an hour or two less than your normal ration of sleep, there's some pretty significant inflammation that's, that, that occurs that's not good. But I've heard you cover that exercising can actually offset some of that inflammation. This answers a, a, an important and common question, which is, if I have to pick between sleep and exercise, what do I do? [laughs]

    6. RP

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      Um, and it sounds like if it's one night poor sleep, exercise.

    8. RP

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      But you, but you don't wanna make it a habit. That's... Uh, do I have that right?

    10. RP

      Right. Yeah. I mean, so this, this data, a lot of it actually comes from you can cause even acute insulin resistance after, like, a night of, of sleep deprivation, certainly after-

    11. AH

      Mm-hmm

    12. RP

      ... two to three nights of-

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm

    14. RP

      ... sleep deprivation. And, you know, again, a lot of that's coming down to some of the th- things we've already talked about. And, um, but exercise can help basically negate a lot of that. And I learned that firsthand through experience when I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor, uh, and when I was a new parent. Of course, you're not getting enou- enough sleep, and so that's... I learned it... Before I actually dove into the science about it, I l- I learned about it through my own data, where I was, you know... I wasn't exercising as much, and particularly in the first month, really, like, you're kind of in a cave as a new mom. You don't really... you're not really exercising much at all.

    15. AH

      Yeah. Evolution wants the-

    16. RP

      Yeah

    17. AH

      ... the baby to survive.

    18. RP

      You're, you're recovering too.

    19. AH

      Yeah. Yeah.

    20. RP

      I mean, childbirth is a very-

    21. AH

      Sure

    22. RP

      ... it, it's a very traumatic process on the body. And so, um, I noticed that my, my glucose response was like... it was like pre-diabetic, and I was like, "What is going on?" And, um, and that's when I started looking into the literature, and happened to be around the same time when I was then starting up my... At the time, I was doing spin classes. And then it was very clear to me. It was like, I do these high intensity interval training classes even just twice a week, and it was, like, almost completely negating what I had seen previously of my, my glucose being, my fasting glucose-

    23. AH

      Wow

    24. RP

      ... being really high, and also my postprandial glucose being higher than, than usual. And so, um, I looked into the studies, and there's now... You can, you can find many studies out there. And it really... I mean, obviously exercise is one of the best thing you can do to improve insulin sensitivity and to also bring glucose into your cells, right? And so that's part of what you were talking about with, oh, you're more insulin sensitive during the morning, least during the evening, and I also mentioned that. But guess what? There's levers you can pull that, like, change the equation, and exercise is a big one, right?

    25. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RP

      If you're, if you're exercising, you're becoming more insulin sensitive. You're increasing more glucose transporters on your muscle. That's causing glucose to go in easier, right? There's... So there's lots of ways around some of these rules that we hear about.

    27. AH

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    28. RP

      But with the, with the sleep loss, it really is... it's, it's interesting because people, like, when they don't get sleep, the last thing they wanna do is work out. And obviously, like, you don't wanna do, like, the hardest thing, especially if you're really, like, sleep deprived a lot. But it really does help negate the inflammation and the insulin insensitivity that can happen after even just a single night of sleep, and there's studies out there showing that. And then there's also these longitudinal studies that have been done looking at, you know, people... So obviously poor sleep is a problem, you know, in the United States. I mean, a lot of people are, are sleeping fewer than seven hours a night. And, um, but there's studies out that have looked at people that sleep either shorter, so fewer than seven hours a night, or they're sleeping more than 10, right? So and you don't wanna be on either end of the spectrum. And usually, like, sleeping long, there's, like, other disease states associated with it, right?

    29. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RP

      But, um, so people that are sleeping, you know, not getting enough sleep, they have a higher all-cause mortality than people that are getting at least seven to nine hours of sleep. And the same for, like, more than 10. They have a higher all-cause mortality than people getting between seven and, and nine. ButIf people exercise, if they're meeting the physical activity guidelines right now, which is 75 minutes of vigorous intensity exercise and 150 minutes a week of moderate intensity exercise.

  23. 1:52:47 – 2:03:31

    Tool: "Exercise Snacks"; Sedentary Lifestyle & Cardiorespiratory Fitness

    1. RP

      Yeah. Well, I also wanna just mention because, you know, we, we talked about my... You know, I, I work out a lot, and I am sort of addicted to it, but, like, not everyone has the time-

    2. AH

      Yeah

    3. RP

      ... and motivation to, to go spend an hour block of time working out, and this is where I think the-- people can sigh a sigh of relief because there's now so much emerging data that have been coming out, you know, over the last decade on these short bursts of physical activity that add up. They add up, and people aren't really thinking about them and, you know, counting towards adding up to, to their, uh, physical activity, you know, requirements for the, for the week. And so there's these-- there's a lot of studies now. There's on something called, um, vigorous intermittent lifestyle physical activity, VILPA studies. Have you heard of those?

    4. AH

      Are these the exercise snacks?

    5. RP

      They're unstructured.

    6. AH

      Ex-

    7. RP

      Uh, they're unstructured, and n-not everyone likes the word exercise snacks. I mean, I, I kinda like it, but the unstructured exercise, they're, they're the, they're the, they're the moments in your life where you're taking advantage of everyday situations to get your heart rate up to move, and so that could be I'm playing with my new puppy, and I'm sprinting around with my new puppy.

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RP

      I'm, you know, chasing my grandkid around. I'm playing tag or my child. I'm sprinting up the stairs to get to my office. I'm running to catch the bus. I'm moving, right? And so, um, researchers, and there have been several studies on this now, researchers use accelerometers rather than just relying on these questionnaires, which are, as you know, you know, n- extremely unreliable. I mean, it's very hard for people to remember how much exercise. You sitting here asking me about my exercise, I mean, there's always so much, you know, that you can be accurate when, when you're trying to recall that. So these accelerometers are, are worn on people's wrists, and they're me- and they're measuring, like, fast movement, the movement, right? And so thousands and thousands, like hundreds of thousands of participants, there's lots of data now showing that people that are doing these, like, short bursts at at least a minute long but up to three minutes, right, where they're getting their-- they're moving. I'm saying they're getting their heart rate up. They're actually not measuring their heart rate in these studies. They're moving faster with intent, right? They're, they're jogging or they're, um, you know, they're not... Of course, there's the cases where they're actually exercising, but-

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm

    11. RP

      ... but the short bursts of it, um, they're doing the things that I just mentioned, and it's having outsize effects on, on health outcomes. So for example, individuals that do on the high end, so they're doing, you know, three minutes of this short burst of an unstructured type of exercise snack, and they do it three times a day, so it's a total of nine minutes a day, okay, this type of activity, and it's considered more vigorous because of your-- the intent to move, right? It's more vigorous even though they're not measuring heart rate. That's associated with a 40% reduction in all-cause mortality, 40% reduction in cancer-related mortality, a 50% reduction in cardiovascular-related mortality.

    12. AH

      Wow.

    13. RP

      Nine minutes a day. And this is even in people that don't identify as exercisers, so they're not the kind of people like you and I that go and intentionally set out time to go to the gym. The people that just-- they're just take-- they're, they're doing those things, right? They're playing with their grandkids or their kids or their puppies or whatever. And so, um, these moments, they add up. And I'm, I'm citing one study, but, you know, it was a dose-dependent effect, even doing three minutes a day. You know, there's a study in women showing th- you know, three and a half minutes a day, I mean, they were having pretty profound benefits on all-cause mortality and cancer-related mortality as well. And multiple studies now have shown this. I mean, this is like one study-

    14. AH

      Mm-hmm

    15. RP

      ... after another after another.

    16. AH

      Yeah.

    17. RP

      I mean, it's, it's undeniable that these short moments of, you know, getting physically active, active do add up. AndStructured exercise snacks can be part of that. Like maybe you don't have a puppy, maybe you don't have a kid yet, maybe you work from home and you're not taking these... You know, maybe your situation's different than what I described, but you can take these moments to do exercise snacks, and that can be a minute long, and it can be... Like, there was, there's studies showing that m- two s- two studies, and I'll talk about one, showing that getting up and doing 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes over a seven-and-a-half-hour workday is better at regulating blood glucose levels than a 30-minute walk, right? So you get up and you do 10 body weight squats. Pretty easy. I mean, it's also very good to break up that sedentary time.

    18. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RP

      So being sedentary means, like, you're not moving. That also is an independent risk factor, even if you do exercise, for things like cancer being a big one. Although I would say if you're doing a lot of exercise, you're doing pretty good.

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RP

      But I just like to mention that as well. I would say being sedentary is a disease, actually. That's, that's something-

    22. AH

      Mm

    23. RP

      ... I mean, people aren't thinking about it, but...

    24. AH

      Even in the absence of what, uh, Layne Norton calls energy toxicity, like, uh, even if somebody is, um, at maintenance or below maintenance calories, if they're sedentary, that's, that's problematic.

    25. RP

      We do have data, for one, measuring cardi- cardiorespiratory fitness, which is a marker of cardiovascular health-

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm

    27. RP

      ... being physically fit, right?

    28. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RP

      Obviously the gold standard of that would be measuring VO2 max, your maximal oxygen uptake during maximal exercise.

    30. AH

      Mm.

  24. 2:03:31 – 2:05:16

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AH

      Function. Last year I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over one hundred advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over a hundred biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over two hundred and fifty thousand people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

  25. 2:05:16 – 2:17:43

    Creatine, Dose, Resistance Training, Cognitive Function

    1. AH

      I wanna ask you about creatine.

    2. RP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    3. AH

      Uh, I'm 50. I started taking-- weight training and running when I was like 16 maybe. Yeah. And I started taking creatine 'cause back then I was skinny, I wanted to put on muscle. I think creatine was sort of first discussed or released back then [laughs] when I was maybe eighteen or something like that. Something like that. Eighteen, nineteen. Um, so I've been taking it a long, long time.

    4. RP

      Sure, yeah.

    5. AH

      Five to ten grams. But the original protocol, which nobody does anymore, but I confess I still do it 'cause I enjoy it, was to take five grams three to five times per day. There was this loading phase, and you would mix it with a little bit of grape juice 'cause the idea was you were supposed to spike your insulin, and then you get more into the muscles.

    6. RP

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      And then you had a, a maintenance dose, which was five grams per day. Um, and the idea back then was that you needed to do a washout every twenty weeks or so where you just stop taking it, you urinate out a bunch of water, and then you re-reload. And I confess, I've continued to do this minus the grape juice, but occasionally I'll do the grape juice thing. I don't think there's any real merit to the loading phase, maintenance phase idea. But back then and still now, I feel like creatine has made me feel great, um, stronger. Um, I did-- I wasn't aware of the cognitive benefits.

    8. RP

      They weren't being studied back then.

    9. AH

      They weren't being studied back then. But what are your thoughts on why creatine suddenly has become this, like, banner supplement? It's like supplement [laughs] of the year. We should start a supplement of the year thing.

    10. RP

      I know.

    11. AH

      Right? For a while, I think vitamin D and melatonin came first. Um, we'll have to figure out what years those were. Then, uh, I feel like creatine got supplement of the year for 2026 un-unless something else comes along. So creatine, supplement of the year, 2026, even though it's been around for a long, long time. What do you think happened?

    12. RP

      Well, so first I wanna talk about your loading phase, and I-- like, that was really for the studies that were being done, right? Because if you're taking five grams a day of creatine, it takes about three to four weeks for your crea- for your muscle creatine stores to become saturated.

    13. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RP

      And researchers aren't gonna [laughs] do a study where they wait that long. So the loading phase really was just-

    15. AH

      Oh, so that's what inspired it.

    16. RP

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      Oh, okay.

    18. RP

      It was-- It's in this isolated bubble of in the experimental protocol. But like-

    19. AH

      Mm

    20. RP

      ... in the real world-

    21. AH

      Got it

    22. RP

      ... you have three weeks. Or if you're like an athlete-

    23. AH

      Mm-hmm

    24. RP

      ... and you hadn't, you know, taken the creatine, you don't have your creatine stores up, and you have to quickly, rapidly-

    25. AH

      Got it

    26. RP

      ... like, just fix your-

    27. AH

      I was just amazed at how quickly it worked. I g- I, I might be a hyper responder, but I legitimately put on... I realize some of it was water, or most of it was water, but somewhere between probably four and eight pounds of-

    28. RP

      Of lean?

    29. AH

      ... of water in the muscle mass. I don't wanna call it lean mass because it's-

    30. RP

      Yeah

  26. 2:17:43 – 2:25:18

    Biology; Creatine; Supplement Safety

    1. RP

      of-

    2. AH

      Uh, I'm gonna interrupt there. I don't think so. I'm not trying to just be complimentary. You know, I paid close attention to the data, and it seems like in certain fields, like math and physics, the, uh, people tend to, uh, peak with their contributions early. There's a reason why the Fields Medal is only given to people, you know, like, I think it's 40 or younger. My dad's a physicist, so he can, uh, check me on this one. But biologists, at least the ones I know that took good care of themselves, they're known to make great discoveries, be cognitively sharp, intellectually strong well into their 70s and 80s. I mean, Torsten Wiesel, who, uh, co-recipient the Nobel Prize for brain plasticity and vision, he's still alive, and he, he was... I think he still runs. He's in his late 90s. And he paints, and he's, and he's sharp. So I just... I, I, I made a point to only interrupt here. People can check the, the data on the previous portions of the podcast, but and just say, I actually think that cognitively s- I'm using biologists as an example, it's possible in aspects of life where you're, um, where you're building a base of data to pull from, which is what biology really is, it's just an example here, that to get cognitively stronger and stronger with age.

    3. RP

      Right. Yeah.

    4. AH

      I... There's a theory, but I see you as that. And I'm, again, I'm not just saying it to be complimentary, although it is a compliment. I... It seems like you're, you're picking up steam. You're s- thinking about things. You're not forgetting things from way back when. You're building on the, the concepts and knowledge from way back when. So I, I find it reassuring that you, um, biologists in particular seem to have this, you know, up and to the right trajectory for cognition.

    5. RP

      It's interesting. My, my late mentor, um, Dr. Bruce Ames-

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm

    7. RP

      ... was every bit of that. I mean, you know, he passed away a little over a year ago. He was 96. But, you know, some of his most... He claims some of his b- best work was done, you know, in his late 80s.

    8. AH

      Right.

    9. RP

      You know, where-

    10. AH

      You don't see that in math or physics.

    11. RP

      Very... Yeah.

    12. AH

      Yeah.

    13. RP

      So it's interesting. And, and you know, I don't know exactly the difference. I mean, I don't know how much learning goes into math and physic- physics as you're, as you're... Like, I, I, I just don't know.

    14. AH

      I don't know. I don't either.

    15. RP

      But, like, with biology and, I mean, we're constantly learning new things and, and reading new papers, and then I think even just the novelty of learning new things, I mean, that's brain-derived neurotrophic factor, right? Like, that's like you're, you're inc- you're increasing synaptic connections and neuroplasticity-

    16. AH

      Mm-hmm

    17. RP

      ... and you're keeping your brain younger in that way too, right?

    18. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RP

      So, uh, I, I think the learning process is-

    20. AH

      Mm-hmm

    21. RP

      ... is super important, whether it's biology or whatever you're passionate about, right? Like, you learn new languages, what... Like, the learning process itself is something that is so important for, for brain aging as well. Um, and yeah, so I, I, I would agree with you that... But brain aging in general, yeah, I'm o- obviously chronologically aging, and there is some degree [laughs] of aging going on in my brain. But, you know, so that's, that's I think where the creatine craze has come from is the interest in... And I, and I've definitely played a role in some of this, you know, by-

    22. AH

      Yeah

    23. RP

      ... by-

    24. AH

      Yeah

    25. RP

      ... you know, talking, talking about my experience and, and, and being super interested in it because it's like it's felt good for me, and I've noticed-

    26. AH

      Mm-hmm

    27. RP

      ... this experience, and this is completely anecdata again, but in addition with the small studies, and they are small. Uh, like, I don't know if you've looked at them, but they're, they're... You can, you can-

    28. AH

      Subject numbers are not huge.

    29. RP

      Yeah. They're small, and you can poke holes in them, and, uh, you would be completely, you know, okay poking holes because it's-

    30. AH

      Mm-hmm

Episode duration: 3:31:07

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