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The Science of Psychedelics for Mental Health | Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris

In this episode, my guest is Robin Carhart-Harris, PhD, distinguished professor of neurology and psychiatry at the University of California, San Francisco. He is one of the leading researchers studying how psychedelics such as psilocybin, LSD and DMT can change the human brain and, in doing so, be used to successfully treat various mental health challenges such as major depression, anorexia, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and addiction. He explains how psilocybin induces sustained changes in adaptive brain wiring and cognition. We discuss the key components of safe and effective psychedelic journeys, the role of hallucinations, the use of eye masks to encourage people to “go internal” and music, as well as what effective therapist support consists of before, during and after the session (also known as integration). We explore microdosing versus macrodosing and how researchers control for placebo effects in psychedelic research. We also examine the current legal landscape surrounding psychedelic therapies. Psychedelic therapies are fast emerging as powerful and soon-to-be mainstream treatments for mental health disorders, but they are not without risk. As such, this episode ought to be of use to anyone interested in brain plasticity, mental health, psychology or neuroscience. Thank you to our sponsors AG1 (Athletic Greens): https://athleticgreens.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Levels: https://levels.link/huberman HVMN: https://hvmn.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Momentous: https://www.livemomentous.com/huberman The Brain Body Contract https://hubermanlab.com/tour Huberman Lab Social & Website Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://hubermanlab.com/neural-network Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris Academic Profile: https://profiles.ucsf.edu/robin.carhart-harris Publications: https://profiles.ucsf.edu/robin.carhart-harris#toc-id3 Support USCF Psychedelic Research Fund: https://makeagift.ucsf.edu/site/SPageServer?pagename=A1_API_GeneralGivingForm&Other=Psychedelic%20Research%20Fund%20zzz%207031398-SFFDN UCSF Clinical Trials Enrollment: https://clinicaltrials.ucsf.edu/psychedelic-experiences Twitter: https://twitter.com/RCarhartHarris TEDx Talk: https://youtu.be/MZIaTaNR3gk Articles Self-blinding citizen science to explore psychedelic microdosing: https://bit.ly/3IxMrUJ Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression: https://bit.ly/3Os2I11 Pivotal mental states: https://bit.ly/3ITFVYH Increased global integration in the brain after psilocybin therapy for depression: https://go.nature.com/3q4Sb1z Structure-based discovery of nonhallucinogenic psychedelic analogs: https://bit.ly/41Svyux Self-Medication for Chronic Pain Using Classic Psychedelics: A Qualitative Investigation to Inform Future Research: https://bit.ly/3Wr1q8C MDMA-assisted therapy for severe PTSD: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled phase 3 study: https://go.nature.com/3WqI2Zd Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris 00:02:12 Sponsors: Eight Sleep, Levels, HVMN 00:05:41 The Brain-Body Contract 00:06:31 Origin of the Word: “Psychedelics”; Pharmacology 00:12:05 Psychedelics & Revealing the Unconscious Mind, Psychotherapy 00:17:32 Microdosing 00:26:08 Psilocybin vs. Magic Mushroom Doses 00:28:28 “Psychedelic-Therapy”, Music 00:35:12 Sponsor: AG1 (Athletic Greens) 00:36:26 Psychedelic Journey: “Trust, Let Go, Be Open” 00:43:01 Negative Emotions, Fear & Psychedelics 00:46:21 Global Functional Connectivity, Serotonin 2A Receptor; Subjective Experiences 00:52:33 Pharmacology: Therapeutics without Psychedelic Effects; SSRIs 00:58:45 Psilocybin & Depression; Long-Term Effects: Connectivity & Neuroplasticity 01:09:14 Sponsor: LMNT 01:10:26 Psilocybin Therapy & Anorexia 01:12:56 Integration Phase & Psychedelic-Therapy; Meditation 01:19:50 First-Time Psychedelic Use, “Entropic Brain Effect”, Neuroplasticity, Cognition 01:30:16 Fibromyalgia & Psychedelic Treatment; MDMA Therapy & “Inner Healer” 01:38:55 Placebo Response & Psychedelic Therapy 01:41:39 LSD & Psychedelic-Therapy, Micro-Dose 01:48:19 Combination Psilocybin-MDMA Therapy 01:56:06 DMT “Rocketship” & Serotonin 2A Receptors; Ibogaine 02:01:04 “Ego Dissolution”, Cocaine vs. Psychedelics; Relapses 02:12:26 Psychedelics & Legal Landscape; Decriminalization 02:17:54 MDMA, Trauma & Clinical Trials; Future Regulatory (FDA) Approval? 02:23:25 Psilocybin & Current Clinical Trials 02:28:41 Mental Health & Psychedelic Treatment, Safeguards, Paradigm Shift 02:34:39 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Momentous, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac - https://www.blabacphoto.com Disclaimer: https://hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Andrew HubermanhostRobin Carhart-Harrisguest
May 22, 20232h 37mWatch on YouTube ↗

CHAPTERS

  1. 0:00 – 9:00

    Intro: Who Is Robin Carhart-Harris and Why Psychedelics Matter

    Andrew Huberman introduces the episode’s focus on psychedelics as tools to treat psychiatric illness and change brain circuitry. He outlines Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris’ role as a leading researcher in psychedelic neuroscience and clinical trials, particularly in psilocybin for major depression, and previews topics such as LSD, DMT, creativity, and evolving legislation.

  2. 9:00 – 21:50

    Defining Psychedelics: Etymology, Phenomenology, and Serotonin 2A

    Carhart-Harris traces the origin of the term ‘psychedelic’ to Humphry Osmond and Aldous Huxley, unpacking its Greek roots and its neutral stance on positive or negative experiences. He argues that both the revealing of the psyche and the serotonin 2A receptor pharmacology are essential for defining classic psychedelics.

  3. 21:50 – 31:30

    Unconscious, Trauma, and Why Psychedelics Reveal Hidden Material

    The discussion contrasts blindsight and non-conscious perception with the psychoanalytic unconscious that psychedelics seem to access. Carhart-Harris explains how classic psychedelics can bring repressed personal and even ‘collective’ material to awareness, often with strong emotional release and insight, which appears therapeutically potent.

  4. 31:30 – 37:00

    Dosing Basics: Microdosing vs Macrodosing and Mushroom Conversions

    They clarify what constitutes a microdose versus a full psychedelic (‘macro’) dose, including the tricky issue of LSD micrograms versus psilocybin milligrams and mushroom grams. Carhart-Harris underscores the uncertainty in mushroom psilocybin content and cautions against using rough lab estimates for self-dosing.

  5. 37:00 – 44:30

    Microdosing Evidence: Clever Self-Blinding and the Power of Placebo

    Carhart-Harris describes a large citizen-science study where LSD microdosers self-blinded by encapsulating their own doses and placebos, tracked by QR codes. The results showed expectancy drove most of the benefits, with those believing they had microdosed improving as much with placebo as with LSD, spotlighting placebo effects and thin current evidence for microdosing.

  6. 44:30 – 55:00

    Psilocybin vs Lexapro: Clinical Trial Design and Outcomes

    They unpack Carhart-Harris’ New England Journal of Medicine study comparing high-dose psilocybin with escitalopram (Lexapro) for depression. The trial used a low (1 mg) psilocybin ‘placebo’ dose in the SSRI group to standardize psychotherapy, and found psilocybin therapy produced at least comparable, often superior improvements in multiple depression scales.

  7. 55:00 – 1:10:00

    Inside a Psilocybin Session: Set, Setting, Music, and Emotional Arc

    Carhart-Harris walks through what a typical psilocybin therapy day looks like: two guides, eye mask, curated music, and an inner-directed journey. He describes the early-phase anxiety and fear, the crucial role of ‘letting go’, and the later-phase emotional breakthroughs, highlighting music and therapeutic rapport as powerful predictors of outcome.

  8. 1:10:00 – 1:31:00

    Mechanisms: Global Connectivity, Entropic Brain, and Depression Relief

    They discuss imaging results showing psychedelics reduce network modularity and increase global functional connectivity, especially during the acute trip. Follow-up scans in depression cohorts show residual decreases in modularity days to weeks later, correlating with symptom relief, suggesting more flexible brain dynamics underpin recovery.

  9. 1:31:00 – 1:45:00

    Integration and the Limits of a Single Trip

    The conversation turns to what happens after the trip: integration. Carhart-Harris likens it to ongoing practice, similar to meditation, emphasizing that psychedelic sessions provide a ‘leg up’ but not a permanent cure for most chronic conditions. He highlights relapse in treatment-resistant depression, the potential role of repeated sessions, and the need for patients to carry forward the work.

  10. 1:45:00 – 1:58:00

    First-Time Psilocybin in Healthy Adults: Wellbeing, Flexibility, and White Matter

    Carhart-Harris details a completed study in psychedelic-naïve, middle-aged healthy volunteers that used placebo followed by 25 mg psilocybin. They observed improvements in wellbeing and cognitive flexibility and, strikingly, diffusion imaging changes in prefrontal white matter tracts suggestive of increased structural integrity, analogous to developmental maturation.

  11. 1:58:00 – 2:11:00

    Emerging Clinical Frontiers: Anorexia, Fibromyalgia, and Pain

    They touch on ongoing psilocybin therapy trials in anorexia nervosa and fibromyalgia syndrome. Early, unpublished data suggest encouraging improvements in weight and obsessive psychopathology for anorexia and profound sessions with fibromyalgia patients, but Carhart-Harris is careful to frame these as preliminary signals rather than established treatments.

  12. 2:11:00 – 2:33:00

    MDMA, Combo Therapies, and Ego Dissolution vs Ego Inflation

    The discussion compares MDMA-assisted therapy with classic psychedelics, explores the underground use of psilocybin–MDMA combinations, and revisits ego dissolution. Carhart-Harris notes that MDMA reliably promotes empathy and makes revisiting trauma more tolerable, whereas classic psychedelics more forcefully dismantle ego structures and boundary perceptions, sometimes leading to transpersonal ‘oneness’ experiences.

  13. 2:33:00 – 2:51:00

    Regulation, FDA Timelines, and the Role of MAPS and Pharma

    They lay out the current regulatory landscape: MDMA for PTSD is furthest along, with two successful phase 3 trials from MAPS and a plausible FDA decision in the near term. Psilocybin therapy for treatment-resistant depression is now in phase 3 via Compass and others, with more distant approval likely. The conversation acknowledges decriminalization experiments (e.g., Oakland), underground practitioners, and the need for robust training and safeguards.

  14. 2:51:00

    Closing Reflections: Paradigm Shift and Cautious Optimism

    Huberman and Carhart-Harris reflect on the contrast between decades of stagnant psychiatric pharmacotherapy and the fast-moving but complex field of psychedelic science. Carhart-Harris argues psychedelic therapy challenges the dominant ‘pill-a-day’ model and offers a fundamentally different, experience-centered paradigm, while stressing the need for rigorous science, ethical practice, and realistic expectations.

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