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The Science of Psychedelics for Mental Health | Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris

In this episode, my guest is Robin Carhart-Harris, PhD, distinguished professor of neurology and psychiatry at the University of California, San Francisco. He is one of the leading researchers studying how psychedelics such as psilocybin, LSD and DMT can change the human brain and, in doing so, be used to successfully treat various mental health challenges such as major depression, anorexia, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and addiction. He explains how psilocybin induces sustained changes in adaptive brain wiring and cognition. We discuss the key components of safe and effective psychedelic journeys, the role of hallucinations, the use of eye masks to encourage people to “go internal” and music, as well as what effective therapist support consists of before, during and after the session (also known as integration). We explore microdosing versus macrodosing and how researchers control for placebo effects in psychedelic research. We also examine the current legal landscape surrounding psychedelic therapies. Psychedelic therapies are fast emerging as powerful and soon-to-be mainstream treatments for mental health disorders, but they are not without risk. As such, this episode ought to be of use to anyone interested in brain plasticity, mental health, psychology or neuroscience. Thank you to our sponsors AG1 (Athletic Greens): https://athleticgreens.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Levels: https://levels.link/huberman HVMN: https://hvmn.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Momentous: https://www.livemomentous.com/huberman The Brain Body Contract https://hubermanlab.com/tour Huberman Lab Social & Website Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://hubermanlab.com/neural-network Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris Academic Profile: https://profiles.ucsf.edu/robin.carhart-harris Publications: https://profiles.ucsf.edu/robin.carhart-harris#toc-id3 Support USCF Psychedelic Research Fund: https://makeagift.ucsf.edu/site/SPageServer?pagename=A1_API_GeneralGivingForm&Other=Psychedelic%20Research%20Fund%20zzz%207031398-SFFDN UCSF Clinical Trials Enrollment: https://clinicaltrials.ucsf.edu/psychedelic-experiences Twitter: https://twitter.com/RCarhartHarris TEDx Talk: https://youtu.be/MZIaTaNR3gk Articles Self-blinding citizen science to explore psychedelic microdosing: https://bit.ly/3IxMrUJ Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression: https://bit.ly/3Os2I11 Pivotal mental states: https://bit.ly/3ITFVYH Increased global integration in the brain after psilocybin therapy for depression: https://go.nature.com/3q4Sb1z Structure-based discovery of nonhallucinogenic psychedelic analogs: https://bit.ly/41Svyux Self-Medication for Chronic Pain Using Classic Psychedelics: A Qualitative Investigation to Inform Future Research: https://bit.ly/3Wr1q8C MDMA-assisted therapy for severe PTSD: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled phase 3 study: https://go.nature.com/3WqI2Zd Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris 00:02:12 Sponsors: Eight Sleep, Levels, HVMN 00:05:41 The Brain-Body Contract 00:06:31 Origin of the Word: “Psychedelics”; Pharmacology 00:12:05 Psychedelics & Revealing the Unconscious Mind, Psychotherapy 00:17:32 Microdosing 00:26:08 Psilocybin vs. Magic Mushroom Doses 00:28:28 “Psychedelic-Therapy”, Music 00:35:12 Sponsor: AG1 (Athletic Greens) 00:36:26 Psychedelic Journey: “Trust, Let Go, Be Open” 00:43:01 Negative Emotions, Fear & Psychedelics 00:46:21 Global Functional Connectivity, Serotonin 2A Receptor; Subjective Experiences 00:52:33 Pharmacology: Therapeutics without Psychedelic Effects; SSRIs 00:58:45 Psilocybin & Depression; Long-Term Effects: Connectivity & Neuroplasticity 01:09:14 Sponsor: LMNT 01:10:26 Psilocybin Therapy & Anorexia 01:12:56 Integration Phase & Psychedelic-Therapy; Meditation 01:19:50 First-Time Psychedelic Use, “Entropic Brain Effect”, Neuroplasticity, Cognition 01:30:16 Fibromyalgia & Psychedelic Treatment; MDMA Therapy & “Inner Healer” 01:38:55 Placebo Response & Psychedelic Therapy 01:41:39 LSD & Psychedelic-Therapy, Micro-Dose 01:48:19 Combination Psilocybin-MDMA Therapy 01:56:06 DMT “Rocketship” & Serotonin 2A Receptors; Ibogaine 02:01:04 “Ego Dissolution”, Cocaine vs. Psychedelics; Relapses 02:12:26 Psychedelics & Legal Landscape; Decriminalization 02:17:54 MDMA, Trauma & Clinical Trials; Future Regulatory (FDA) Approval? 02:23:25 Psilocybin & Current Clinical Trials 02:28:41 Mental Health & Psychedelic Treatment, Safeguards, Paradigm Shift 02:34:39 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Momentous, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac - https://www.blabacphoto.com Disclaimer: https://hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Andrew HubermanhostRobin Carhart-Harrisguest
May 21, 20232h 37mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Psychedelics Rewire Depressed Brains: Inside Carhart-Harris’ Groundbreaking Trials

  1. Andrew Huberman interviews Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris about the science, mechanisms, and clinical applications of classic psychedelics such as psilocybin, LSD, and DMT, with a focus on depression and other difficult-to-treat conditions. Carhart-Harris explains what “psychedelic” really means, why subjective experience and ego dissolution matter, and how serotonin 2A receptor activation alters brain network dynamics. They review controlled trials showing rapid, often dramatic improvements in major depression, treatment-resistant depression, PTSD, anorexia, and fibromyalgia, and contrast macrodosing with the more weakly supported practice of microdosing. The conversation concludes with emerging data on structural brain changes after a single psilocybin session, the coming FDA decisions on MDMA and psilocybin therapies, and the ethical, regulatory, and practical challenges of integrating these treatments into mainstream psychiatry.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Classic Psychedelics Are Defined Both by Receptor Pharmacology and Subjective Experience

Carhart-Harris emphasizes that “classic psychedelics” are best defined in two ways: pharmacologically, as agonists at the serotonin 2A receptor (e.g., LSD, psilocybin, DMT), and phenomenologically, as drugs that reveal aspects of the psyche (unconscious material, transpersonal content). He argues you cannot ignore the subjective trip and still honestly call something a psychedelic; compounds that stimulate 5-HT2A without psychedelic phenomenology would be better viewed as a different drug class, more akin to SSRIs.

Psilocybin Macrodosing Shows Strong, Replicable Antidepressant Effects

In treatment-resistant and major depression, two guided psilocybin sessions (typically 25 mg, spaced 1–3 weeks apart) produce high remission rates—often around 60–70% in small trials—far exceeding typical SSRI outcomes in similar populations. These gains can last weeks to months, though many chronic, severely depressed patients eventually relapse, highlighting both the power and the limits of the intervention. Critically, the intensity and emotional depth of the acute experience robustly predict therapeutic benefit, supporting the view that “the trip” is a central mechanism, not an incidental side effect.

Microdosing Benefits Are Weak and Largely Explained by Expectation

A creative citizen-science study led by Carhart-Harris’ group asked LSD microdosers to self-blind by encapsulating their own microdoses and placebos and tracking outcomes. Those who thought they had taken LSD improved as much whether they actually had LSD or placebo, indicating that positive expectancy drove most of the reported benefits. Methodologically strong, long-duration, placebo-controlled microdosing trials are logistically hard and still sparse; current evidence for microdosing improving mood or creativity is suggestive at best and far weaker than for macrodosing plus therapy.

Psychedelics Temporarily Increase Brain Entropy and Global Connectivity, Then Leave Lasting Network Changes

Neuroimaging during psilocybin, LSD, and DMT shows decreased modularity and increased “global functional connectivity”: brain regions that normally communicate mostly within their own networks start communicating across networks. EEG measures reveal an “entropic brain” effect—greater informational complexity—that scales with subjective intensity. Importantly, in depression trials, a residual decrease in modularity (interpreted as more flexible, less “stuck” brain dynamics) persists for days to weeks and correlates with symptom improvement, suggesting a window of enhanced functional plasticity during which psychotherapy and life changes may consolidate more deeply.

A Single High-Dose Psilocybin Session Can Induce Structural Brain Changes

In a completed but not yet published study of healthy, psychedelic-naïve middle-aged volunteers, one 25 mg psilocybin session produced measurable changes in white matter tracts between prefrontal cortex, thalamus, and striatum, assessed via diffusion tensor imaging. Axial diffusivity decreased in these large tracts—an effect associated with increased tract integrity and seen in healthy neurodevelopment, and opposite to patterns of aging and neurodegeneration. Although correlations with cognitive and wellbeing improvements were modest, this suggests that a single macrodose can produce not only functional but also anatomical alterations in key control circuits.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Psychedelic literally means ‘mind-revealing’—these drugs make aspects of the psyche visible that are ordinarily not available to us.

Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris

If it wasn’t for this action of the classic psychedelics—this revealing of the unconscious—I don’t think we’d be so interested in them.

Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris

Science is not about what you want to believe. That right there is the beauty of science.

Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris

Psychedelic therapy allows you to sit with rather than sit on [your pain], in a way that chronic pharmacotherapy often does not.

Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris

Current treatments haven’t really progressed since the 1950s. Psychedelic therapy is a genuine paradigm challenge to that model of a pill every day.

Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris

Definition, history, and pharmacology of classic psychedelics (psilocybin, LSD, DMT)Unconscious material, ego dissolution, and the role of subjective experience in therapyClinical trials of psilocybin for depression, anorexia, fibromyalgia, and healthy volunteersMicrodosing versus macrodosing: evidence, placebo, and methodological challengesBrain mechanisms: serotonin 2A receptors, global connectivity, entropy, and neuroplasticityTherapeutic protocols: preparation, music, eye masks, guiding, and integrationRegulation and future access: FDA phase trials, MDMA for PTSD, decriminalization, and pharma

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