Tools for Overcoming Substance & Behavioral Addictions | Ryan Soave

1. 0:00 – 1:32

   Ryan Soave

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      (Upbeat music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science, and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Ryan Swave. Ryan Swave is a renowned expert in addiction treatment and trauma recovery. Ryan has spent decades on the front lines helping people overcome addictions to substances like alcohol and various drugs, as well as behavioral addictions including gambling, video games, and pornography. His approach combines evidenced-based protocols tailored to each person's unique family history and needs. During today's episode we explore all aspects of addiction, including the relationship between addiction and trauma. Ryan shares insights from his extensive clinical work and provides clear zero-cost protocols for effective recovery that leverage neuroplasticity, which is your brain's ability to change with intention and experience. We discuss and compare residential treatment programs, 12-step programs, self-guided addiction recovery, and more. If you or someone you know suffers from addiction, the information and tools offered in this episode ought to be of tremendous benefit to initiate and maintain sobriety from that behavior or substance. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Ryan Swave.

2. 1:32 – 6:10

   Addiction, Addictive Behaviors, Relief

   1. AHAndrew Huberman1:32

      Ryan Swave, welcome.

   2. RSRyan Soave1:34

      I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman1:36

      You're the guy that people call, reach out to, cry to when everything comes crashing down. That's kind of your thing.

   4. RSRyan Soave1:50

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman1:51

      And you have this incredible, uh, gift really to, uh, orient people in time and space when that sort of thing is happening, and you do this for men, women, teens, kids, adults, families. You've pretty much seen it all, although I'm sure there's more to come. I would love for you to just explain to people listening what addiction is, and how you see it show up in people's lives. I know that you tend to get things like a trauma surgeon would see the human body, hemorrhaging and in need of great support, but how do you think about addiction?

   6. RSRyan Soave2:36

      First thing, I'd like to make a little bit of a distinction, you know, we're gonna talk about addiction, um, when we look at the DSM, the diagnostic manual that we use for diagnosing psychological disorders, not really addiction as a diagnosis. That's not super important necessarily because we can talk about it in the, the term of addiction but, you know, we can look at people and have s- and, and look at biological, uh, psychological and social factors and make a diagnosis to see that they've got a substance use disorder, an alcohol use disorder, uh, whether it's moderate or severe or they're dependent on it, and not to give people an out but not all people that show up with an alcohol use disorder for a point and time are necessarily an addict. They may not be forever. It might have been a life circumstance that kind of, that brought them there. Um, that said, someone that at a point and time in their life could have an alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder, you know, they're probably prone to that and they probably shouldn't, uh, continued on that path or, or gambled with it. Um, so talking about addiction in general, I like to broaden that definition to really, you know, the question I'll ask people is does it have you or do you have it? Is it driving you and your behaviors, are you really leaning on it in a way that that's your, uh, your medicine? Because I, I don't really see addiction as the problem. You know, addiction is the solution, whatever they're addicted to is the solution to some underlying stressor. You know, I, I think as, as humans we, when we're dis- when we're uncomfortable, when we're experiencing pain, our kind of immediate reaction is to get out of that, and when that stress becomes really big we're going to look for the things that are gonna impact us a, a lot quicker, you know, taking a drink, using a drug. Now once people start doing that, depending on what it is, you know, if it's, uh, heroin or fentanyl, uh, they could become physically addicted to it very quickly, or alcohol over time, um, but I think the, the definition can be expanded to a lot of other things, maybe even things that seem mundane, you know? And we can have addictive behaviors at different points in our life and maybe work have the same behavior that sometimes is addictive and sometimes isn't. You know, this is very mundane but sometimes I'm binge watching Netflix because I'm on a plane and don't have anything to do or I'm sick and I can't get out of bed, and other times I might have a really stressful day or have something going on that I don't want to deal with and I end up watching TV too late and then I don't sleep and now is that a, a addiction that I need to get treatment for or be pulled away from my family for? Probably not, but it's I, I, I think in talking about addiction we want to understand, you know, what is it that people are using whether it's a substance or a behavior and why are they using it? You know, th- while I say it's addiction is not the problem, it's the solution, it's a solution that becomes very problematic for people, um, and, you know, you will know this better than, than I will or be able to explain it better than I would but, you know, they get a benefit in their brain and body for feeling this sense of relief that they'll feel when they use the substance, you know? One of the, uh, doctors who initially supported the people who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, his name was Dr. Silkworth and he wrote this opinion and he said, "Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol."I believe that effect is relief. So people are looking for some sort of relief and the question has to be, I think when we're talking about addiction, what is it that they're looking for relief from?

3. 6:10 – 13:33

   Rehab, Detox, Physical & Emotional Stability

   1. AHAndrew Huberman6:10

      So when somebody comes to you or someone, or in some cases is brought to you-

   2. RSRyan Soave6:16

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman6:16

      ... who's in the throes of addiction, what's your first line of attack, so to speak? Are you focused on what the underlying stressor is or you're trying to stabilize them? I mean, these are people who, um, sometimes, and, you know, sadly I've seen this in my friends, um, fortunately who are now sober, but, um, you know, people wrap the truck around a tree at seven o'clock in the morning having drank a bottle of wine and taken a Xanax or jail or worse, right?

   4. RSRyan Soave6:45

      Right.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman6:45

      And so when, when somebody comes in, what, what, what are the first questions that you're asking and, and what's the goal?

   6. RSRyan Soave6:53

      Let's talk about the most acute first. So I serve as the chief clinical officer for Guardian Recovery. We do treatment, uh, in different states. You know, we serve thousands of people a year and we have medical detoxes that we start with. So if somebody needs to be detoxed from alcohol or drugs, you know, they're gonna come in. We're not gonna start asking questions about what the underlying stressor is. You know, we're gonna first do medical assessments, nursing assessments. Sometimes we have to send them to the ER if they're, you know, if they're, uh, in dire need or they're so acute that they can't even be in the, the facility that we have. Um, we're gonna just get them physically stabilized, you know, and as we're getting them physically stabilized, you know, the thing with addiction is a lot of people just say stop, but for people that just stop and assuming they're not in danger, like in alcohol if you just stop you could, you know, you can have seizures and die. You know, uh, uh, other drugs if you just stop it can be extremely uncomfortable. But even if they went to a detox and were able to stop, their life doesn't generally get better right away. (laughs) In fact, a lot of times it gets worse. Now maybe it's better in the fact that they're not about to die, you know, they don't have these physical symptoms, but emotionally, you know, they've been using this substance or this, uh, or a- alcohol as a, as a medicator and all of a sudden the medicine's gone, you know? And they've gotta deal with life. And so they can actually feel a lot worse right when they come in. So first what we're gonna do is really understand what's going on with them biologically so that we can make sure they're safe and then as we can support them over the days that they start, you know, becoming a little more comfortable their, their, uh, their physical conditions start to stabilize, then we can start to really understand what's going on with them and their environment. You know, what is their pattern of use? You know, when do they use? What are the, what are the effects that it's having in their life? You know, um, 'cause we wanna understand how it's playing out everywhere, like I said, biologically, psychologically, and, and, and socially and, and really get a clear picture of who this person is, you know? And sometimes people come in more motivated than others, you know? Sometimes they get brought to us, like you said, and I, I've seen it work either way that someone who's comes in and says, "I need help. You know, I'm, I'm willing to do anything," that they end up not following through with their treatment and other people that come in fighting and screaming end up, you know, doing very well over time. I actually like it when people come in in that kind of struggle. I think, you know, the more people kind of struggle with something up front, it's kind of like the, you, you pull an arrow back, you know? The, the further you can pull the bow back and hold it, the more tension in it, the farther it's gonna fly. And I, I really like when we have people who say, "I'm not gonna do this," or, "I'm gonna leave." You know, they're actually telling us something about themselves and where they are.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman9:44

      Hm.

   8. RSRyan Soave9:44

      And we can be there with them in that struggle. You know, sometimes people come in and they're just like checking the boxes and they're gonna be a good student and everything's fine 'cause they're not drinking anymore and then we're never able to really get to kind of the causes and conditions of it. You know, when they're in a treatment setting, we'll have them for anywhere from, you know, seven days to 90 days. You know, we like to keep them, you know, and understand, you know, what's going on with them so we can meet them at their different stages and, and the environment we kind of try to create a microcosm of their social universe so that, you know, they can experience some stressors while they're... We're not creating the stressors, but we're having them communicate with their families. We're having them face some of the things they don't wanna face. And we have a saying that says, you know, treatment can't really begin until the crisis occurs and what that means is more of the internal or existential crisis. If someone's coming in going, "Oh, I'm great. Everything's great," you know, why were they... Maybe things are feeling great right now, but why were they drinking or using in a way that was harming themselves, others, you know, ripping their lives apart? You know, sometimes people will say addiction is a, a choice. Uh, I don't buy that all the time, right? Uh, I, but people will say that, and I, I, I would, what I would say to that is even if it is a choice, even if people could wake up and say, "I'm going to do this or I'm not," like why would they continue to choose a life that they're hurting themselves and others? So while they're in, in treatment with us, you know, we wanna, um, start to really understand who they are, start to understand, you know, what is happening in their environment. And then as they s- you know, stabilize more physically and then they stabilize emotionally, is we can start to raise their capacity to experience difficult emotions. I mean, I, I say this all the time to my clients, you know, what I really do with them is help them learn how to feel bad. You know, we don't put that on the website because no one's gonna come to us to say, "How can I feel really bad?" But I think that's, that's at the core of it, you know? How can we build a distress tolerance so that they can face discomfort, they can face pain, and not choose the thing that gives immediate short term relief that's gonna end up hurting them and th- those around them to, to allow them to really lean in...... to whatever that discomfort is. And, and when people are able to be available for the depths of discomfort, then they're really, become more available for the heights of joy and, and satisfaction in, in, i- i- in life. Um, so we start to build that capacity so that then we can start looking at the beliefs that maybe, the, the limiting-type beliefs that have been driving them that are often set from earlier on in the life, in their life and the way that they were shaped. You know, and that's often what we talk about as, as trauma. Not always a, a big event that, that happened on a single day, although that does occur, but the shapings that people had in their life that we're the ada- you know, we're adaptive. People are very adaptive and, you know, kids and as they're in their formative years will develop strategies to live life that adapt them in a way that they can survive the environments that they're in. And, you know, if that adaptation, which was appropriate in their family, their school, their environment, whatever it was, maybe all of those, was something that, um, was more toward like a survival response, like a fight or flight-type response, and now that's never resolved in some way and l- i- in a way. And then later in life, they're still applying these adaptive strategies in situations that it's not appropriate for.

4. 13:33 – 16:08

   Sponsors: BetterHelp & Levels

   1. RSRyan Soave13:34

   2. AHAndrew Huberman13:34

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice, it was a condition of being allowed to stay in school. But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance. And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and to all sorts of goals. BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy. Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time-efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels. Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor. One of the most important factors in both short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose. This is something I've discussed in depth on this podcast with experts such as Dr. Chris Palmer, Dr. Robert Lustig, and Dr. Casey Means. One thing that's abundantly clear is that to maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose relatively steady without any big spikes or crashes. I first started using Levels about three years ago as a way to try and understand how different foods impact my blood glucose levels. Levels has proven to be incredibly informative for helping me determine what food choices I should make and when best to eat relative to things like exercise, sleep, and work. Indeed, using Levels has helped me shape my entire schedule. I now have more energy than ever and I sleep better than ever, and I attribute that largely to understanding how different foods and behaviors impact my blood glucose. So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, go to levels.link/huberman. Right now, Levels is offering an additional two free months of membership when signing up. Again, that's levels.link, spelled of course L-I-N-K, /huberman to get the additional two free months of membership.

5. 16:08 – 23:38

   Recognizing Addition; Video Games, Parents & Responsibility

   1. AHAndrew Huberman16:08

      The thing you said earlier that's ringing in my brain is, does it have you or do you have it? And I think for people listening and watching, um, I think this is a really important distinction.

   2. RSRyan Soave16:22

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman16:23

      And maybe you could just elaborate on how one starts to answer that question. Because these days we hear, you know, people are addicted to social media, people are addicted to sugar, people are addicted to, you know, all sorts of things and online shopping, you know, and, and on and on. Let's just set aside alcoholism for the moment because that's a, a n- a unique case where, uh, as you mentioned, immediate withdrawal can cause death and, um, uh, it has its own kind of unique features. But bu- but for everything else, like if, if somebody out there is listening and they're like, "Well, you know, I have a hard time clicking off of, uh, social media, um, even though I know I need to sleep, I need to study," or have a hard time disengaging from video games, I think is a common one in, in a lot of young people. How do they know if they're addicted? Is there a litmus test? I mean, could we test ourselves as, um, as individuals? Like, can I go an afternoon without it? Can I go a week without it? Is that the test?

   4. RSRyan Soave17:19

      I, I think that's a great test. I mean, probably more than an afternoon or a, a, a week, but, you know, can I quit for a month? And, you know, if you're, if when you're s- when you've stopped, if all you're thinking about is either doing it or when you're doing it all you're thinking about is, "How can I n- how can I stop doing this?" that's a pretty good indication that it has you, you know? And, you know, you also have to look at like what are the things that it's impacting in your, in your life? And that's one of the things we can help people kind of orient to. They might think that if it's somebody that comes to us that their family is saying this is a huge problem, they may not see it yet or they may be avoiding it. We call that denial. But a lot of times it's they, there's something deep down where they know that, "You know, I'm really disengaged from life. I'm lonely. I'm, um, uh, I don't have the quality of relationships. I'm not able to be motivated to do the things that I want to do."

   5. AHAndrew Huberman18:07

      What if it still feels good to them, however? Like family isn't saying, "Look, you know, kid isn't getting their schoolwork done," but-Um, it's kind of outr-outrageous, you know, like, four hours a day playing video games, three hours a day, that might not even seem like that much to a lot of people, but parents, um, can see the opportunity cost of that. This is time the kid isn't running around and getting exercise, this is time that, um, is eating into sleep, this is time that could be spent studying. So, maybe c- uh, grades haven't cratered yet.

   6. RSRyan Soave18:36

      Right.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman18:36

      Um, and we live in the, quote unquote, "American dream" model-

   8. RSRyan Soave18:40

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman18:40

      ... uh, where kids say, "Well, so-and-so makes millions of dollars every year playing video games-

   10. RSRyan Soave18:46

       Right.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman18:46

       ... so I'm actually on the path." Uh, I think you see that fairly often these days, right?

   12. RSRyan Soave18:51

       Yeah. I'll relate it back to drugs for a second. You and I are the same age, and you probably remember the, you know, this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs, when they cracked the, you know, showed the egg, this is your brain and-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman19:00

       Yeah. Disrespectful to eggs, which I-

   14. RSRyan Soave19:02

       Right, very disrespectful to eggs. (laughs)

   15. AHAndrew Huberman19:02

       ... I'm a big fan of. Uh, but-

   16. RSRyan Soave19:04

       And, and then this is your brain on... Well, it did call the egg a brain, so that was pretty good.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman19:07

       Oh, that's true, you're right.

   18. RSRyan Soave19:08

       Right? So, it was brain.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman19:08

       Your logic is impeccable. (laughs)

   20. RSRyan Soave19:10

       Thank you. And this is your brain on drugs, and it showed the fried egg. I think that was a- a- a- a terrible example for kids because most of the time when people do drugs the first time, it doesn't feel like that. It feels good. It feels great. You know, it's over time when you keep doing that, that it- it, you know, especially, uh, you know, a kid that doesn't have all of the responsibility and the things in life that they might have or want to have later on, you know, uh, i- i- t- they're not gonna s- they're not gonna see that that's a problem necessarily 'cause it does feel good.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman19:40

       Right. And some of their heroes, uh, are, um, very public about the fact that they, like, smoke a ton of high THC weed.

   22. RSRyan Soave19:48

       Right.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman19:48

       I mean, that... When I was growing up, that was associated with, um, lack of agency and kind of being a, quote unquote, "burnout"-

   24. RSRyan Soave19:57

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman19:57

       ... was the idea. Nowadays, there are just as many examples of people that smoke a lot of weed, are vocal about that, and by all external measures, are doing very well. Perhaps better than most.

   26. RSRyan Soave20:10

       It also wasn't as highly concentrated when we were kids. I mean-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman20:13

       True.

   28. RSRyan Soave20:13

       ... this is- is- is pretty intense these days and can have some really long-lasting effects on people. And, and there are some people that it's not gonna affect in the same way other, uh, you know, it does others. Some people are gonna be able to smoke that amount of THC or vape it or however they're doing it, right? I mean, the delivery methods are very... It's- it's crazy these days because, you know, used t- people used to have to roll a joint, go behind the store, you know, it was like an event to go do that. Now, you can-

   29. AHAndrew Huberman20:38

       And you had to break the law.

   30. RSRyan Soave20:39

       You had to break the law. Now, it- it's every- it's in a candy. I mean, it's- it's candy, right? It's gummy- gummy bears. (laughs)
6. 23:38 – 29:38

   Experiencing Real Life vs Addictive Behavior; Dopamine Dynamics

   1. RSRyan Soave23:38

   2. AHAndrew Huberman23:38

      No, neither do I. I think that the, um, contrast with the video games that you played when you were younger and then you mentioned going outside, I think, um, I realize this is not a strict definition of addiction by any means, but if something in the electronic sphere makes, quote unquote, "real life" underwhelming-

   3. RSRyan Soave24:00

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman24:00

      ... um, I don't know if that means it's addictive, but it certainly means it has a gravitational pull. Right? And- and we can set this as a kind of a- a pillar for context when we talk about pornography for instance.

   5. RSRyan Soave24:12

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman24:12

      Right? So when, um, I mean, th- there's a saying, right? "A- a picture is worth 1,000 words." Um, and I would say as a vision scientist that a- a movie, um, or even a reel or a clip on TikTok is worth a billion.

   7. RSRyan Soave24:26

      Yeah.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman24:27

      ... pictures. You know, never before have we been exposed to so many movies with so much richness in sound and, um, and eyes. You know, the more times we see eyes and, and you've got all this elaborate context. So, whether or not you're talking about pornography, whether or not you're talking about video games, you know, the sort of sensory richness of it, richness feels like the wrong word, right? But the, the, the kind of like the, the amount of sensory information coming in through, uh, any one of those very brief experiences i- in a moment, it doesn't necessarily overwhelm the brain. Clearly the brain can handle it, but then you walk out into a landscape like a park with a couple basketball hoops-

   9. RSRyan Soave25:06

      Right.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman25:06

       ... and a, um, and some paint drawn on the concrete and a ball, and, and it looks boring.

   11. RSRyan Soave25:11

       Right.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman25:11

       It's the difference between eating a, you know, as a kid, you know, a hot fudge sundae, a banana split, and then being offered a plate of broccoli. Like, you have to know a lot about nutrition and care a lot about the long-term effects of nutrition on the body to, um, to not think that the hot fudge sundae is the better option. I mean, it just makes sense from a, like a neural perspective. So I, I wonder whether or not this definition of addiction or habit forming behaviors or dependence, um, could be expanded to include, um, you know, the, the ratio of kind of gravitational pull versus, you know, how it makes other things seem.

   13. RSRyan Soave25:50

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman25:50

       Right? Um, and obviously w- you know, I don't believe that we should remove technology. I think technology is wonderful, but I could imagine that for a young brain and for an old- older brain, right? I mean, can I just ask you, do you, do you find any adults or do you encounter many adults who are addicted or have a, have a habit of excessive online shopping? I mean, it's-

   15. RSRyan Soave26:11

       Oh, yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman26:12

       ... so easy to buy stuff online.

   17. RSRyan Soave26:14

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman26:14

       I mean, just the, the barriers to entry are so low.

   19. RSRyan Soave26:16

       Yeah, absolutely.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman26:17

       So d- does that make sense? Like this contrast between-

   21. RSRyan Soave26:19

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman26:19

       ... richness and dullness that exacerbates the dullness the more that you engage-

   23. RSRyan Soave26:24

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman26:24

       ... in some behavior.

   25. RSRyan Soave26:26

       Yeah. And, and I wanna be clear, you know, I, while I said it's not necessarily a problem for everyone, I, I believe it can absolutely, the video games as an example, can absolutely be addictive. I mean there's been studies that have shown, and I, I, uh, that, you know, it's impacting the brain in the same way as a lot of drugs are. You know, I've worked with, with kids who were, video games were taken away and they were like, and their wifi was shut down and they were somehow stealing some console and like, in the bushes near another home, somehow pirating their wifi to play the video games during the day. I mean, it sounds-

   26. AHAndrew Huberman27:04

       Like an a- like an addict.

   27. RSRyan Soave27:05

       ... like a crack addict-

   28. AHAndrew Huberman27:06

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. RSRyan Soave27:06

       ... you know, or, you know, in the streets.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman27:09

       Was a kid?
7. 29:38 – 40:03

   Drugs & Feelings; Reordering Your Life; Roles, Kids vs Parents

   1. RSRyan Soave29:38

      it to you anymore.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman29:38

      Well, that's an extremely important point, that people are chasing a feeling. I had a friend who, um, thankfully is a recovered addict. I obviously won't disclose who this is, a former methamphetamine addict. Very successful, um, in life, but had a serious meth issue.

   3. RSRyan Soave29:54

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman29:54

      Um, got sober and contacted me not long ago, um, requesting some support because they were thinking about abusing Adderall. And we had a conversation. Fortunately, they didn't do this. Um, he's doing great. Goes to meetings, has a sponsor who's taking care of that. But the description of why they were pursuing this, uh, idea of abusing Adderall was this recollection of a feeling. You know, he kept talking about like, "There's... I just remember that feeling. It was..." You know, and everything felt, and he was talking about something that I can't relate to 'cause I've never done meth. I have no intention of doing meth. But his, it's almost like it was a, like a-... like a love affair that had been spectacular, that he was missing this person, but it was a thing.

   5. RSRyan Soave30:43

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman30:43

      It s- it sounded like love, like, "I miss that feeling."

   7. RSRyan Soave30:46

      I think that's a, a very important point because I see people as having spiritual relationships with alcohol and drugs, you know? I mean, th- they use them as something that makes them feel connected, they feel whole. I mean, what are we, what is alcohol called? Spirits. You know, that, it, it, it's something that can, uh, allow them even if for a period of time to feel the way that maybe they wanna feel or not feel the way that they don't wanna feel, you know?

   8. AHAndrew Huberman31:20

      Can we dissect that a little bit? Um, to feel the way they want to feel versus not feel the way they don't want to feel. I remember reading Augustine Burroughs' book, Dry. He's a recovered alcoholic. And there's this paragraph in there where he talks about his first drink of alcohol and I- I'm gonna get the exact wording wrong, but it went something like, you know, on that first drink he felt... He's in the first person, he's saying, "I felt it mesh with my blood and my physiology, and my physiology felt correct for the first time." And I thought, "Oh my goodness." Like I, I certainly don't have that relationship to alcohol, but I have friends who are serious alcoholics, fortunately now sober, who describe alcohol that way. From the first drink it was like, "This is..." They, they say, "This is me." It's like they're finding themselves.

   9. RSRyan Soave32:07

      Yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman32:08

       And that's very different than avoiding the way they felt previously.

   11. RSRyan Soave32:11

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman32:12

       Most of them didn't pick up a drink the first time because they were trying to find that person or because they were trying to avoid something else. It was because there was booze at a party or booze at home.

   13. RSRyan Soave32:24

       Even the people that like, like him that are talking about alcohol like that, and I've heard this story thousands of times, you know, from people that never read that book, you know, that that's how they felt. They, they couldn't have been using it most of the time to get away or, or to move away from how they're feeling 'cause they didn't even recognize that's how they're feeling. That was just the world they were in. You know, we're... Especially a lot of times this is, uh, kids and adolescents who that's the first time they're drinking and, and they, they don't realize that they could feel the way that they're feeling.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman32:58

       Mm.

   15. RSRyan Soave32:58

       You know, these are... The way that we grow up are just the waters we swim in. We don't often know that there's a difference between who we are and how we can be, and to be able to... A lot of people, the first time, even the first time they'll do it, and it's not always like that for everybody, right? Some people just are using it socially and then later on when there are stressors realize that, you know, "I can use this to medicate as well." But the ones that are having the relationship that you just described is, you know, th- they didn't even know. They had no idea that life or their emotional state or their physiological state could be different than it was.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman33:38

       So how do you persuade somebody that it's a good idea to take that away from themselves? Because I imagine some of the first thoughts that go through their mind, um, include, "I can't imagine life without that feeling."

   17. RSRyan Soave33:55

       You know, S- St. Augustine said, and I'm not gonna get it exactly right, but he said something like, you know, "A, a well living depends on reordering your loves." And he was talking about people living with a, a, a disordered, disordered life, w- and, and the question it begged is, what are you loving the most? And his argument, I think, was whatever you're loving the most becomes your God, your higher power. You know, if, if I'm loving money the most, if that's the most important thing to me, then money is my higher power. The thing is, money will fail me, right? Like you just talked about, like I could... The guy could get a billion dollars and wanna kill himself, right? Or if I put my relationship at the, you know, the... If I, if I said, you know, "The most important thing to my, me is that my wife is happy." You know? And, "That's my most important thing." That sounds great, but she's not gonna be happy all the time. And when she is, I'm gonna feel great, and when she's not, I'm gonna feel like I'm doing something wrong. You know? Are we making sex the most important thing? Are we making... You know, and, and his argument was love God first and then do as you, do as you will, like find the highest power because these powers don't... That we're putting up there, like money, sex, food, all things that aren't problematic, we need them. They only become problematic when they're problematic, right? When they're, when we're making them that thing that's going to solve our problems.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman35:23

       What about kids? Um, I know a number of people who are excellent parents, who are super devoted to their kids, and they say like, "My kids are my life. My kids are, my kids are everything." Um, that might just be language, right? They could also have a relationship to a higher power, but, um, do you see people, um, suffering by virtue of over-emphasizing their kids or their, uh, you mentioned spouse, but as a priority in their life?

   19. RSRyan Soave35:53

       Yeah. And, and it, it's great that you made a distinction about just being language because, you know, people can say those things. Like I, I... My kids are very important to me. Probably I would say, you know, one of the most important things in my life is to be a father, right? But if the energy in the house again and again is that my kids are my life, what, what are... Like what a burden that is for that child. That means that in o... Like that child might, in those instances, show up in a way that, uh, they need to be happy, they need to perform, they need to... They can't show sadness, they... In order for their... It becomes their job to make their parents okay.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman36:35

       And can you imagine that kid later grown up-... looking for a partner and the expectation on that partner or the expectation on themselves just based on that role internalization of, you know, like, that they're the center of the universe or that maintaining this beam of love from the other person-

   21. RSRyan Soave36:56

       Right.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman36:57

       ... is essential, or else it feels life-threatening.

   23. RSRyan Soave37:00

       Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a covert form of abuse to use our children to meet our needs. You know, we're there to meet their needs, depending on their age, right? I mean, it, we're gonna ... You know, you have an infant, you're their highest power. You have to do what they, they, they, uh, they can't survive without you. You know, they can't feed themselves and you carry them all the time, right? And then, you know, eventually they start crawling and walking and you carry them more than, then you don't and then eventually they're walking all the time and you're carrying them just a little bit and, you know, then you're not carrying them anymore. If you're still carrying them all the time when they're 16 or 17, that's a, that, that's a, that's a problem. But when we're using them to meet our needs again and again, now it becomes their job to care for us. A- and most parents that do this, I see this all the time, are not setting out and saying, "I'm gonna, uh, use my child to make me happy." They really have the best intentions and it, it probably comes out of however they were shaped growing up and how their family was shaped growing up. But, you know, I, I, I see this, you know, with my kids, you know? Sometimes I come home, I got two that are six and three, and I come home from work and they're like, "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy," and they're running to me and they jump on me and, and, and it feels amazing. And other times I walk in and, like, they've got a show on or something and I'm like, "Hey, kids," and they're like, they don't even say anything. Now, that doesn't feel great, but what I know is that doesn't mean they don't love me, right? If every day I came home and they were like in the middle of something and I s- I forced them to get up and give me a hug, eh, you do this once it's not gonna be a, you know, a problem necessarily, but if I did that every day and now I need them to give me a hug in order for me to feel safe and comfortable coming in the home or just feel happy, they're gonna start having the job of we gotta hug daddy in order for him to have a nice evening. That's a big job for a little kid to have and I see that play out a lot in the people that come to us in that they've unconsciously been assigned these roles in childhood, like, you know, they're the hero of the family, you know, we can use those, the, the terms, or the, or the scapegoat or they're the, you know. But really what was the job that they were given, you know? It's my job to take care of mom and dad, you know? Maybe they were in the middle of the relationship or, or, or, you know, mom and dad are fighting all the time, but kids are often assigned these roles early on and then they don't know how to shed them later on and so then they just use that role later in life. I mean, my field is full of people who are assigned roles, you know, the, the therapists and nurses and things like that. You know, we, we wanna care for people. But it's hard to parse some of that stuff apart, you know? W- because we don't wanna blame parents for how their kids end up, but when we're doing work with our clients we wanna understand the patterns that were developed, not to blame them, but to, to start understanding what were the systemic challenges in the family system so that we can, you know, develop and deploy systemic solutions for them.

8. 40:03 – 43:13

   Sponsors: AG1 & LMNT

   1. RSRyan Soave40:03

   2. AHAndrew Huberman40:03

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was. I started taking it and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health. Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin. In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function. Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake, but there are a number of things in AG1 including specific micronutrients that are hard or impossible to get from whole foods. So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, and in turn brain and immune system health, and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body. So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement what that supplement should be, I always say AG1 because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health and performance. If you'd like to try AG1 you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman. For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get the free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription. Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium and potassium all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes sodium, magnesium and potassium are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning and I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes. They have a bunch of different great tasting flavors of LMNT, they have watermelon, citrus, et cetera. Frankly, I love them all. If you'd like to try LMNT you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.There's

9. 43:13 – 46:10

   Tool: 30 Days Abstinence & Addiction; Impact

   1. AHAndrew Huberman43:14

      this thing that happens around any conversation about addiction, where at some point, any logical listener starts to say, "Okay. Well..." And it sounds like everyone's addicted to something, and it's so hard to stay right in the... you know, between the lane lines of, of healthy and healthy because... Yeah, I like... I'm not speaking for myself 'cause I'm not a drinker, but, like, I like a drink at the end of the day. It helps me relax, makes me a better parent, makes me a better spouse, and I like it. Is it my spiritual higher power? No, but I like it.

   2. RSRyan Soave43:47

      Right.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman43:47

      Would I take 30 days off? Prefer not to, but I'm not addicted. You know, but then you think, "Okay. Well, a kid that likes playing video games, it lets him connect with his friends. Um, he's doing it a bit excessively, but is he addicted?"

   4. RSRyan Soave43:59

      Right.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman43:59

      You know? Okay. Um, obviously, if somebody... If it's harming people's profession, it's harming their relationships in very overt ways, then we place it into the category of addiction. But there's this thing that happens in these conversations around addiction, where people start to go, "Okay. It sounds like I can't really enjoy anything that much because then it takes over everything." Like, I'll, I'll come clean. I've worked anywhere from 10 to 16 hours a day, five to six days a week, on average, sort of, um, f- since I was 19. Am I work addict, workaholic? Maybe, but I love my work and it's done wonderful things for my life, and I have a life that I wouldn't trade for anything. Did I miss out on a lot of things? Probably. Um, but I also love the life I've lived and that I continue to live, and a lot of that comes from the relationships and experiences I've had through work.

   6. RSRyan Soave44:52

      Right.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman44:53

      So, you know, at some point, this is where diagnostic criteria come, become handy, but I do like the fact that, um, we have a litmus test now. Could you take 30 days away from it and not, um, completely lose your mind? Or could you just take 30 days away from it?

   8. RSRyan Soave45:07

      Right.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman45:07

      If I didn't work for 30 days, that would be very difficult for me, but I could do it. Um, so how should we frame this, this thing of addiction and... so that people can ask themselves, like, "Do I have it or does it have me?"

   10. RSRyan Soave45:21

       Yeah. I mean, I think, how are you using it and what is it impacting if, if anything? I mean, but to be, be able to be honest with yourself about it. Uh, you know, it's very hard to be... It's, it's easy to say be honest with yourself about it, but it's very hard to be honest with ourselves. You know, that's where being in relationship with others, sharing what you're experiencing. If you're taking 30 days off, really communicating to somebody else, whether it's a therapist or a trusted friend, you know, "How am I thinking about this?" You know, "Am I waking up every day wishing I could be doing this other than something? Am I sitting in a business meeting completely dissociated from what's going on because I'm really focused on... that I'm not gambling or that I'm not drinking?" You know, it... You've got to be able to look at what it's impacting in the way that we're thinking and the way that we're feeling.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman46:09

       Can I ask you

10. 46:10 – 55:30

    Creating a Life Post-Addiction, Jellinek Curve

    1. AHAndrew Huberman46:10

       a question about the... how it's impacting things? 'Cause one thing I've observed, um, in myself and in others is that sometimes behaviors that if you... if we were to just look out through a kind of tunnel vision, you'd say, "Wow. Like, this person just, like, works a lot," or, "This person exercises a lot." Um, but it provides energy that feeds a bigger ecosystem.

    2. RSRyan Soave46:31

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman46:32

       You know, it gives me a sense of purpose, very... I have great relationships through my work and relationships that are not through my work, but, you know, it, it sits, uh, not as my higher power, but kind of at the center of my life, and a bunch of other things wake out from it. And to remove that thing would be to disrupt the whole web. I think that sometimes what scares people, um, especially... Again, I don't... I can't relate to alcohol specifically, but what... My friends who have made the decision to try and quit or quit drinking alcohol, for them, it's like the... their ability to socialize, the lack of anxiety while they're intoxicated, the, um, knowing there's something to do, um, for them is... you know, as opposed to, like, what they would fill that space with. So sometimes, it... I feel like these addictive behaviors fit into a larger ecosystem so that it masks the dys- the... any dysfunction. But it's... But it has this, again, gravitational pull so that, you know, it gets to bigger questions of, like, "How, how are we supposed to live our life?" And I like this quote from Saint Augustine, you know, that a, "A life well lived is a constant reordering of our loves."

    4. RSRyan Soave47:36

       Reordering of our loves, yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman47:37

       Yeah.

    6. RSRyan Soave47:37

       Something like that.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman47:38

       So it gets to these questions of, like, "What, what is a good life?"

    8. RSRyan Soave47:41

       This is a, a great, uh, discussion point, you know, that, you know, people will come in and say, "I just wanna be happy. I just wanna be at peace." First thing we have to ask them is, "What does that mean?" We have to define it. A lot of times, maybe they're saying that happiness is kind of the absence of all these bad stuff, you know, or that peace is, you know, everything outside of me is going okay, everything is fine, you know. We've gotta really explore with them what... how would they know when they got there, you know, what... A balanced life is gonna be different for everybody. And, uh, especially, like with behavioral addictions, you know, we're... it's not about necessarily removing those forever. In fact, a lot of those, we can't remove.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman48:22

       Food addiction.

    10. RSRyan Soave48:23

        You can't remove food. I mean, the things around sex addiction, you know, you're not gonna re- I suppose someone could not have sex, but really, a lot of that is about connection and relationship and love and intimacy, you know. Even gambling, you know, people don't have to gamble, but you're dealing with, with money, you know, and you've gotta touch it and spend it and be around it.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman48:42

        Yeah. Buying a house is an investment.

    12. RSRyan Soave48:45

        Yeah, or a gamble sometimes-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman48:46

        Yeah.

    14. RSRyan Soave48:46

        ... as we've, we've seen, you know. And we've gotta look at how we're using these things, you know. And, and going back to drugs, you know. You look at, like, we've got pain, pain medication, you know. Aside from being abused, right? We've got opioid pain medication, um, and then we've got heroin. And both of them either came from or derivatives of the poppy, which is a beautiful flower, right? So we've taken this flower and we've been able to make this- these drugs, and one of them-You know, of, of course, prescription pain abuse and fentanyl that we see is, is, you know, is... It can be deadly. But I think an argument could be made that it's probably saved more lives than it's killed when used appropriately. We're able to have surgeries that we probably never would have been able to have before because of the medications that people can use. And then, we've got people who are either abusing that or taking heroin and dying, you know, having a, a, you know... When we started calling it the opioid epidemic, I think 50,000 people died. It, like, surpassed the number of the people in the US that died by car accidents. Last year was something like 100,000, right? Where- 100,000 people died? A- at least. You know, it's more than doubled. Um, you know, now it's in a lot of different things. There's a lot of kids that are taking something that they think is, uh, a, a, a less harmful pill, like a Valium or a Xanax, and it's got fentanyl in it, and they, they die. You know, it's, it's doubled since we started calling it an epidemic. And of course, that 100,000 doesn't include all of the other drugs and alcohol. And, um... But, you know, it goes back to, how did we use it, you know? We manipulated this flower in a way that we can save lives and kill or die. That- that's a more extreme example, but how are we using the things in our life, you know? Are we using exercise as a way to completely, you know, uh, to dissociate from things? If I, if I take away that exercise, am I gonna fall apart? Am I not gonna be okay? You know, and that doesn't mean don't ever exercise again. But understand, like, if I were to stop for a week, do I fall into a deep depression? Not everybody's gonna do that. But if somebody's oriented in the way that it is a problem, that may happen for them. And then it begs the question, like, what am I using this for? What I think is so important about, uh, treatment for addiction and then recovery from addiction is that, you know, at first it's about eliminating something. It's about moving away from something. But that's not sustainable. Just to cut something out isn't... It- it- 'cause it's being used for something, to give them that sense of relief or that sense of peace or that sense of connection or- or- or spiritual or otherwise. They've gotta eventually start building towards something. You know, what- what's the life I'm gonna create? If you look at the 12 steps, the last part of the, the 12 steps is to practice these principles in all our affairs, which means go out and build a life. You know, don't, don't find yourself really small. The- we, we, we were talking beforehand. There was a, a, a, a... I think he was a biophysicist. I, I, I can't remember. E.M. Jellinek, he was at, at Stanford for a bit at the end of his career, and he had done a lot of research on alcoholism and, uh, uh, wrote a book in the '50s or '60s called The Disease Concept of Alcoholism. And out of that book, there was a curve, and you can look this up, it's called the Jellinek Curve. I don't think he actually created the curve. It was credited towards him. In fact, I think he even, uh, kind of dissociated himself from it. But it came out of his works. And it, it starts off with, at the top... And it's for alcoholism, like, where people start drinking, and it's in the, um, crucial phase as they start drinking more. And at first, when people are drinking more, you know, their tolerance increases, you know, but they start to experience some problems. They're hungover. They're late for work. They're having arguments with... But it's, it's nothing that drastic. And as they keep drinking and descending down this curve, actually they enter the, I think it's called the critical phase, and that's where actually tolerance decreases, right? It's, it's... They're dependent on it. They need it just to get by. They need it to get to work, you know? They, uh, they're... They can't keep the job. They can't keep their relationships. Their, uh, physical body is starting to fall apart. They're getting sick because of it. There's a lot of other factors in it. And then they, they come down to the bottom of this and, and it's this cycle of drinking and stopping and drinking and stopping, you know? Drinking until I can't anymore, physically sick, and then going back to it as soon as, as they can. When those people are able to get treatment and find recovery, now the curve starts to go back up, uh, uh, the recovery side of the curve. And in the beginning, you know, they're not feeling that great. They- they've lost the thing that helps them get through life. But if they can stay in a contained environment, and that contained environment could be a treatment center or a contained environment like in a 12-step program, you know, where they're engaged in something. I- I don't mean contained by, uh, uh, the walls that you're in, but in some sort of... In a community, and they can stay away from it. Eventually, they start, uh, seeing that... They see in others that they can build a life, that they can go after the things that they wanted to go after, and, uh, they start finding pleasure from life rather than from the, the, the substance, you know? They start to be able to handle the stressors of life. Their tolerance for stress... Instead of their tolerance for alcohol building, their tolerance for, for stress starts to build. And then eventually, they're kind of moving towards what we would call in Maslow's hierarchy of needs the self-actualization, you know? They're able to build a life that they never thought they could have before. You'll hear people say, "A life beyond my wildest dreams." You know, and a lot... For the- a lot of those people, that's just that, "I'm able to meet anything with some sort of sense of peace, and when I'm not..." And I, I think recovery is... It's not about finding a... Let's just use the word peace. It's not about finding a, a, a, a, a, a sense of peace that you stay in, you know? Balance is not, "I'm on both feet standing still." Balance is like, like this, right? And as we're taking risks in life, as we should, to really build awesome lives, sometimes we're gonna feel way off-kilter. But with the recovery process, to be able to recognize when I'm out of balance sooner or out of peace sooner and return to it quicker. Recover, again and again, you know? And have the tools to know, you know, what are the emotional conditions that I might be facing on every day, and what, what, uh...What am I made of up in... Who am I that might bring

11. 55:30 – 1:02:48

    Tool: Emotional Weather Forecast, Gratitude, Plan, Strivings

    1. RSRyan Soave55:30

       to that? So for instance, uh, something I give to a lot of my clients is, we call it, like, the emotional weather, uh, forecast. You know, when... The first part of this is they've got to really know themselves and that's something we see in 12 step a lot where they'll... We hear if- if, you know, people identify their character defects, not everybody I know is familiar with 12 step but that's one of the... But as part of identifying your defects, you're also identifying your virtues, right? Just like a balance sheet. You want to know your liabilities and your assets. And sometimes those things are... Sometimes they- they- they change and i- if something that's a liability in this situation might be an asset in this situation, right? Like if, uh, uncontrolled anger and violence in my home when my kids do something wrong, and I'm not doing this, but i- is- is a liability. You know, if my family's attacked it's an asset, right? So understanding what these defects in virtue or assets and liabilities are so that I really know myself and- and- and that can be through a process of- of- of sharing with others. In- in the 12 step, that's how they do it, we do it in therapy all of the time to kind of know who I am. You know, actually, uh, one of... There's a line in one of the, uh, AA literature that Bill Wilson wrote and he gives a definition of humility and it goes something like this, that humility is an honest recognition of who and what we've become followed by a deep desire to become who we can be. And it- it's not about, like, that I'm all bad, it's just to note it. To- to- to recognize who I am. If I don't know where I'm starting I can't know... Just like finding directions. If I ask, you know, to get directions to the studio and your team started giving me directions from, uh, uh, over the canyon but I was, you know, south of here, uh, they're gonna give me the directions to turn left on this road and right on this and I'm gonna... I'm not gonna know how to get there. I'm not... I'm gonna be disoriented, I'm gonna feel lost. I gotta... It starts with really knowing where I am, who and... Who and what I am and from there then we can start to build a life. So one of the things I give people a lot is once they kind of understand these assets and- and- and liabilities of theirs, you know, to- to look at each day ahead and say, you know, first we start off with gratitude, you know, it kind of gives a mindset. And gratitude isn't just about being thankful for things. I- I really believe gratitude is meeting what is as it is. You know, that, uh, I- I always... When I give people this and when I practice it myself I try at least to be... One of the things I'm grateful for to be something that I'm challenged by and not just to say, "I'm gonna learn a lesson from this," but I- I might not know what that is, but to really express gratitude for some challenge I'm- I'm- I'm having. So that's kind of a mindset and then the next thing is just laying out your plans for the day. And- and not like a detailed calendar but like, you know, I'm gonna wake... You know, take the kids to school, go to work, travel, you know, have a business dinner tonight, right? And then, so I kind of know what's happening that day and then from there, uh, look at what are my... What's my emotional state currently? What am I experiencing now? Especially if it's like fears, resentments, anger, guilt, shame. It could be something else, it could just be like I'm feeling... I feel really solid today. But when I can take the... What's gonna happen today and what I'm already experiencing, I can look at what I'm doing today and think, you know, there are some character liabilities or defects that might come up. Like if I have to travel today and I've got to take three flights instead of one I can know that... If I know myself I might say, "I could... I have the... I have the ability to become impatient, controlling," and- and look at my day to say, almost predict, what are the emotional disturbances that can... That can happen that day? And then coupled with the state that I'm in. If I'm already upset about something else I've got a higher likelihood of going into these reactive patterns that I don't necessarily want to go into. And so, you know, much like going on a trip where I would look and see what the weather's gonna be. You know, if- if it's gonna be... Looks like it's gonna be rainy t- the whole time I'm there I'm gonna pack a raincoat. Now that doesn't mean I'm not gonna get wet but once I start getting wet I can go get my rain ca- raincoat and- and put it on. Same thing in this. You know, the last part of it is to look for what I'm gonna watch for because of my plans and my emotional state now. I know that I have to watch for being like maybe short or controlling. I want to watch for these character defects or liabilities. And then what do I want to strive for? I'm gonna strive for being patient, tolerant, kind. Now just because I write this down, just like the rain jacket, doesn't mean I'm not gonna experience these things but when I can look at like a day as an example, I can break it down and... In- in a chunk where, you know, I'm not gonna be shocked by I'm being impatient and as soon as I get impatient I can remember, oh, this is what I'm looking... This is what I want to watch out for today. What do I need to... And I wanted to strive for being tolerant and patient so then I can, you know, use one of the tools that I might have that I've laid out, you know. It might just be if I'm in the airport, walk away, take a breath, you know, and- and recognize, e- e- and remind myself this is what I'm striving for today. And in this exercise we're putting out in front of us what we might be- be experiencing based on what we know about ourselves and what we've learned about ourselves. And when we can do that w- you know, we can start living each day a little bit better, or at least I find this with my clients that they- they can chunk it down and say, you know, uh, they're not surprised by these emotional reactions and- and- and, you know, like I said earlier, we- we want to help people... I- I try to help people learn how to feel bad. You know, to- to recognize that okay, I'm feeling disturbed, I'm in a reaction, let me lean into it rather than run away from it.And we run away from it in different ways. I might be snapping at the lady at the counter or, uh, you know, might be someone that- that now I just totally withdraw and don't say anything.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:41

       Yeah, numbing out is very common nowadays.

    3. RSRyan Soave1:01:43

       Yes, i- yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:44

       I just want to repeat these different categories, um, a small list of gratitudes, um, including perhaps some things that, um, we're grateful that challenge us-

    5. RSRyan Soave1:01:55

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:55

       ... or things that we've received or whatever it happens to be, a quick list of gratitudes, plan for the day, what the internal emotional weather is, like, how am I feeling?

    7. RSRyan Soave1:02:04

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:04

       Irritated, rested, whatever, it could be three or four things, what to watch for, and what to strive for. I do think it's an extremely useful, obviously zero-cost, minimal, minimal time investment protocol, for lack of a better word, that, um, everyone, not just people who struggle with addiction, but everyone can benefit from, because... And I think we- we tend to be so conscious of, like, what to look for, what to strive for, coming out of a morning journaling or a great night's sleep, but then, you know, it's amazing how by 3:00 PM somebody cuts us off in traffic or, you know, or we're being bombarded with too many things and all of a sudden we're- we're not necessarily unpeeled, but we're not our- our best self.

12. 1:02:48 – 1:08:39

    Connection with Others, Mental Willpower Throughout Day, Defining Best Self

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:48

       Do you think there's value in sharing your list with somebody else?

    2. RSRyan Soave1:02:50

       Connection with others is so important, especially when I share something like this that's vulnerable with them 'cause it's not just about holding me accountable, but now- now I'm- I'm expressing it in a way that others see it, and we can have communication with them about, you know, having them share back with you too. I have, like, 10 guys that I share this with every day, you know, and not that the way that I do things is the way that everybody should, but I ask other people that I give this to to share it because, you know, you're- you're i- now expressing it, and expressing something kind of brings it more into existence than if I'm just doing it myself internally. And we've gotta put these things in front of us 'cause we will forget very quickly, you know? Or you, like you said, coming out of a morning journaling or meditation session feels great. I think most people decide to make a change and then, you know, on one day and then they don't think about it again in the way that they thought about it for months, like, happens every year on New Year's. They're not putting it out in front of them every day to be a reminder of what I'm going after, what's important to me.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:58

       And the brain is very different at different times of day and at night. You know, one thing that I subscribe to that, separate from this conversation but perhaps relevant, is I don't believe any thoughts that occur between 2:00 AM and 5:00 AM. I just don't. Whatever- whatever comes up if I happen to wake up in the middle of the night and have that... I- I just don't... I've chosen to not believe those thoughts. I might write something down, I might have an insight that I'm interested in, um, or something that terrifies me or whatever, but I just don't believe those thoughts because I've had the experience thousands of times of then going back to sleep, waking up in the morning being like, "That's ridiculous." (laughs) It doesn't- it doesn't, uh, that doesn't hold any water anymore. I think we're so vulnerable in the middle of the night, our forebrains shut down, we can't strategize, all our safety mechanisms are- are- are, you know, at their- at their lowest, and those thoughts just, they don't hold meaning. Now, I'm not to say... That's not to say that some night owls might not have some brilliant insights in the middle of the night, so this just relates to me and my schedule, but I do think that, um, we can make a decision to behave one way and do things at 8:00 AM and by 4:00 PM... As a neuroscientist, I can honestly say that your brain is not the same brain at 4:00 PM that it was at 8:00 AM. It's still you, but it's functioning so differently. What's important, how it orders priorities, how it interprets data, it's a, it's like a, it's not like a computer. It's a, it's a dynamic machine, and at different times of day you're working with a different, your different set of hardware, literally certain circuits are more active than others. So I don't believe that, um, we are capable of self-regulating nearly as well as we could, certainly not perfectly, if we don't have a reminder of our best self, our aspirational self, that we carry forward. Whether or not it comes through other people or enforcement or ideally it comes from- from inside us, but the expectation that we are going to spontaneously and impulsively be our best self is one of the biggest failures, I think, of- of education and psychology and medicine. And evidenced by the fact that I have many colleagues who are scientists and physicians who have terrible addictions. Some are sober, some are not. These are brilliant people who have all the knowledge in the world about the inner workings of the mechanisms that make people addicted-

    4. RSRyan Soave1:06:16

       Right.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:16

       ... um, et cetera. Anyway, I- I- I just, I- I'm editorializing there a bit, but I feel very passionate about these zero-cost, uh, tools, but I have to say these tools can make a huge difference. And, um, what do you call this list? What is it, the plan for the day? What- what is this list?

    6. RSRyan Soave1:06:37

       Uh, just like an emotional weather forecast, you know? I mean, call it whatever you want, but I- I- I think it can be part of a daily inventory too where at night you could look at it and see how you did, you know? I mean, I- I- I think you just talked about being your- your best self, like, it's a way to kind of descr- you know, define what our best self is that day. You know, 'cause what our best self is is gonna change depending on the circumstances we're in, you know? I- I- I've run into problems before where, you know, in my own life where, you know, it's like the weekend and I'm really looking forward, I'm like, "The weekend's gonna be..." And I don't, let's say I don't do this actually because it's a S- it's a Saturday and I, it's gonna be, you know, I'm home and it's gonna be an amazing... Well, I live with four other people, you know? Two of, three of which are children. They might have other plans, you know, and, or someone gets sick and we can't go to the- the, do the- the thing that we were gonna do and I- and- and I can find myself, you know, really grumpy and right in those character defects or liabilities. I also think being your best self isn't never engaging in those. It's not never getting angry.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:38

       Right.

    8. RSRyan Soave1:07:39

       Uh, I remember a, a teacher I had was talking about, and I can't remember the... He was talking about some Indian yoga master, you know, that, uh, eh, uh, th- eh, it, they... The student asked him, like, "D- d- do the, do the masters ever get angry?" And he said, "Of course, but when they get angry, it's like writing on water. It's there, and then it's gone. You know, they're not holding onto it." If you try to write on water, those letters are going to disappear right after you write them. You know, that there's, there are emotional disturbances that we're gonna have and it's part of life. We can't ignore them. We should embrace them and lean into them. I mean, I think that, uh, uh, the... A real secret to having a really fulfilling life is being able to embrace all aspects of ourself, the, the light and the shadow. Because we can't just try to run from the shadow and go to the light. It's just, it's, they, they, they're hand-in-hand. In fact, they don't exist without the other.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:33

       Well, 'cause they're both inside of us.

    10. RSRyan Soave1:08:35

        And they're both inside of us.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:35

        Yeah.

    12. RSRyan Soave1:08:36

        And they both have their s- purpose.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:38

        What is the purpose

13. 1:08:39 – 1:10:16

    Emotional Weather Map, Navigating Life

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:39

       of the shadow in your, in your mind? And for folks that don't know, I mean, the shadow, we're using Jungian language here, but... And, and there probably will be some folks listening that say and are thinking to themselves, "Well, I've never suffered from an addiction," et cetera, but what we're really talking about here with this... Can we call it an e- an emotional weather map?

    2. RSRyan Soave1:08:55

       Sure. That's great. Thank you.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:56

       Because I like the idea of, I like the idea of a map and the forecast component.

    4. RSRyan Soave1:08:59

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:00

       'Cause it's not just, how do I feel right now? It's, how do I feel right now, what's coming, and how am I gonna prepare and, w- and, w- there's some goal setting in it, but you're not actually writing out your specific goals. Just, you know-

    6. RSRyan Soave1:09:10

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:10

       ... what a- what am I striving for, is, I suppose, a goal. Um, but what we're really saying is anyone that's ever gotten anxious (laughs) , anyone that's ever gotten stressed, anyone that's ever gotten angry, whether or not you yell or not, right? I mean, th- what you're talking about is, is a, is a roadmap for the, being able to navigate the experience of being human.

    8. RSRyan Soave1:09:30

       Right. Because the stri- what we're striving for is not our, like, specific goals. I'm not striving for s- like, success in this meeting. I'm not striving for making this money today. I'm striving for ways of being.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:42

       Mm-hmm.

    10. RSRyan Soave1:09:43

        You know, how I'm going to be that day in the face of the stressors, whether that meeting goes well or not, whether I make the money or I don't, whether I get the answer that I wanted or I don't, that I'm striving for this way of being. I, there's a, uh, a line that I heard from a country singer once that I think he heard in a, a 12-step meeting that said, you know, "Peace is not, uh, finding calmer seas, it's building a better boat." You know, that, you know, uh, how are we gonna navigate the storm, not how are we gonna avoid the storms?

14. 1:10:16 – 1:12:03

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:16

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

15. 1:12:03 – 1:16:03

    Tolerating Stress, Sailing Analogy, Discomfort

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:03

       You alluded to this earlier when talking about balance is a dynamic process, not a static process. That part of peace is knowing that when distress comes, you'll be able to tolerate it.

    2. RSRyan Soave1:12:18

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:18

       As opposed to there's no distress. And I know people like this that are constantly trying to move through the channels of life, create their own little estuaries around things so that there's never any disruption.

    4. RSRyan Soave1:12:30

       Yeah. We wanna be able to tolerate that distress enough to make choice and respond rather than react to whatever it is, you know. It doesn't mean that we're not gonna navigate out of the storm. I, I think of it, I, I, I, I think of it like this. In a... If we go back into the, I don't know, 17 or 1800s when the only way to get from England to, eh, th- America was to navigate or to sail in a, a wooden sailboat, right? A sail ship, whatever it was called. And let's say we took the most experienced sailor with the best ship, but this time, rather than using his skills of navigation and sailing, he said, "The seas are calm and the weather's good, I must be going the right way. But if the seas are rough and the weather's bad, I must be going the wrong way." And every time the seas were calm, the weather's nice, he just kept going in the direction he was, but every time he came across waves and rain, he'd turn. Is he ever gonna get there? Potentially. Let's say it's calm the whole way. Or he might end up navigating all the way down around the South America and then coming back up. Eh, neither one of those is the answer. The answer is that he, when he meets the storm...He can use his skills of navigation as a sailor to, and, and, and understanding the weather and his experience to say, "Okay. This is something I navigate through. This is something I navigate around." But he doesn't just react based on the external conditions. And we react constantly to our external conditions based on what we're perceiving is going on.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:11

       Mm-hmm.

    6. RSRyan Soave1:14:11

       You know, I'll preface this by saying I think, I believe one of our biggest, if not our biggest challenge as human beings in our psychology is that we confuse discomfort with threat and respond to discomfort as if it's threat. You know, and this goes back, I can use the, the, uh, uh, diagnostic criteria for PTSD, not that everybody that experiences this has PTSD, but when you look at the diagnostic criteria, criteria in the DSM-5, which is the fifth version of the, it's the most recent version of the diagnostic manual. It says that the person was exposed to, um, it's like exposed to death, uh, threaten, actual or threatened death, or, or actual or threatened violence, or actual or threatened sexual violence. In the DSM-IV, it said real or perceived. And what that means is, you know, we can have a similar or exact reaction to something that is actually happening, like you're attacking me, hopefully you're not going to attack me, but like you were, as if you threaten to attack me. You know, if I believe that I'm in danger, then I can have the same, uh, I'm gonna have the same fight or flight response, or the same reaction in my body as if I am actually in danger. It's interesting that our, I think our legal system recognizes this, in that, uh, you can be arrested for assault or battery. Battery is you hit me. Assault is you threatened to hit me or threatened to kill me. We, we actually, in a way, recognize this idea of perception in our legal system. It's actually, it's also I, I believe what the, forgive me for saying it in this way, but the quote unquote success of terrorism is. It's not that this event happens, it's that we leave that event thinking... It's not that those buildings came down, it's that we think, we believe that all of the buildings are going to come down, right? It's, it's, it's, it's terror.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:02

       I think that

16. 1:16:03 – 1:23:55

    Building Distress Tolerance, Proactive Behaviors, Cold Plunge

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:03

       because we were talking about addiction, and now we're talking about perception of threat and distress, I wanna make sure that we tie those things back to one ano- uh, one another. No, I think this is a very important conversation because what we're, r- you know, at the heart of addiction, but also at the heart of a challenged life, challenge in the ways that life shouldn't be challenging, is this lack of distress tolerance.

Episode duration: 3:07:32