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70 min read · 14,254 words- 0:00 – 1:27
Intro
- BGBill Gates
This is a world where somebody can have over a hundred billion dollars. What is that? These fortunes are almost illegitimate unless in a very smart way, given back.
- SPSpeaker
One of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy.
- JSJay Shetty
Exploring and investing in innovative solutions to some of the world's toughest problems. Bill Gates.
- BGBill Gates
Starting with Microsoft, where I had monomaniacal focus, giving up weekends and vacation. Wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it. The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed, so it was kind of fun saying, "No, no, this is really gonna be mainstream."
- JSJay Shetty
If you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy. What was it actually like?
- BGBill Gates
He said we were the General Motors, and he was Mercedes. Social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be. Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not at all factual. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was. He would say, "Hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard," and I'd say, "No, no, that was fine." I feel lucky that he lived a- as long as he did. It brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.
- JSJay Shetty
Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him? The number one health and wellness podcast.
- SPSpeaker
Jay Shetty.
- JSJay Shetty
Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.
- 1:27 – 4:18
Launching Microsoft
- JSJay Shetty
There's so much conversation today, I feel, about work-life balance. Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time was necessary for the levels of success, or would it have been possible in another way?
- BGBill Gates
No, I think, uh, for Microsoft to be successful, even though we were the first, we-- and we had a broader concept of software than the other companies, we needed to be, uh, what I would call hardcore. And, you know, in that case, the work is what I want to do. It's, it's not like, oh God, you know, I've gotta earn a little bit more money. It's, you know, this is the thing that throughout my childhood, I was so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some early friends, school I went to, I had these exposures to computers that were very rare. And so I had, you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience and great feedback on, okay, how do you do it better from the very best adults? I got to see what was coming, and the idea of being part of making that real... You know, I woke up and said, "Okay, I, I'd love to get to work." My younger self could stay in, you know, days at a time. I, I don't do that now, but then it was just, in no way a, a hardship, you know, because I, I, you know, felt we were part of something that, uh, was- would be very empowering. And, you know, competitively, I wanted us to, to be the ones to make it happen.
- JSJay Shetty
One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is you've said, "We overestimate what we can do in one year, and we underestimate what we can do in ten years." At the beginning, did you over or underestimate yourself?
- BGBill Gates
Well, people, when they would hear us say a computer on every desk and in every home, uh, running Microsoft software, they were like, "You kids are really out of it." I mean, every desk, every home? You know, what would people do with these things? But because the chips were improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years, it allowed us to think of the computing part as essentially being free.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- BGBill Gates
And so the only thing that would hold you back is, you know, okay, can you help people with photographs? Can you help them with documents? Can you help them stay in touch with people far away or find information? And we knew over time, uh, that as these things got better, it would, would be part of the mainstream. And so as people sort of came around to that, they were like, wow, whether it's at work or at home, this is just part of how, how people do things. Uh, and we wanted, you know, to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere, you know, even in the, the countries that are, are
- 4:18 – 6:26
Being Different Isn't a 'Weakness'
- BGBill Gates
low income.
- JSJay Shetty
You mentioned your parents earlier and when I was reading this book, I felt like they are such a big part of this book and the storytelling and the incredible experiences and memories. And one of the things you mention is you say that they felt that they accepted that you were different from your peers, and I was wondering in what way? How did you know that they'd seen that and accepted that?
- BGBill Gates
Well, it definitely confounded them that sometimes I was pushing back in a pretty tough way, you know, as though, you know, we were in some competition. Uh, they would hear from teachers, and they were very good about staying in touch with my, my teachers. You know, some teachers would say, "This kid should be skipped ahead one or two grades." Some teachers would say, "This kid should be held back." You know, so that-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
-kind of is, what? You know, make up your mind. You know, I had one experience where I worked on a, a report about the state of Delaware, and I ended up doing this two-hundred-page report with the great wood cover while the other kids turned in, you know, five or ten-page reports. And it was very embarrassing that I thought, wow, did I, you know, kind of overdo this thing? And yet, you know, that ability to concentrate, you know, would hold me in good stead in terms of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity first to cards, then to math, and then finally to software and how would software change the world. Uh, but, you know, they never were quite sure what to do, and, you know, sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant. Uh, and sending me to a very nice private school where the classes were a bit smaller and- You know, I could get... I always got an unfair share of attention from the teachers. You know, we'd have, like, 15 people in the class, but, you know, almost 20% of the teacher's time in terms of telling me what to read or, you know, marking, uh, my writing up. You know, I, I got an unfair share partly 'cause my curiosity or energy level, you know, did mark me out, uh, in both positive and, and negative
- 6:26 – 9:49
What Therapy Taught Me
- BGBill Gates
ways.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. What, what influence do you think Dr. Cressy actually had on you? Because therapy at that time and in your early age, looking back on it now, what do you feel it gave you? What skills did it give you?
- BGBill Gates
Well, it's a very, it was a very rare thing. In fact, the other people coming to him were these couples that were having arguments.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
And so in a, I hope, privacy appropriate way, he would g- kind of give me a sense of that. He gave me a few IQ tests. He, you know, had me read about Freud and all these things. But slowly but surely, he was saying to me that fighting your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they really do love you. They're on your side. You should apply your energy, uh, towards other things. And, you know, eventually he made me feel kind of foolish, like, yeah, why was I taking these, what I thought were kind of arbitrary rules or where my mom would say, "You should respect me." And I'd say, "Well, you know, I don't know." And a little bit as I figured out, I could understand things like playing cards as well or better than my grandmother or, you know, I could read books that had complicated things. I was a bit showing off to saying, "'Cause my cognition is good, why should you be able to set arbitrary rules?" But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I think about it now. Uh, but Dr. Cressy was so encouraging to me in general and then got across, uh... He probably understood at the first meeting [laughs] you know, that I, uh, had to be convinced to make this change, but he did it in this, a super nice way. A- and so the idea that, no, my parents, yes, they're imperfect, but wow, they're on my side, that, that changed my behavior.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And did-- He also had these beautiful ways of you said he never belittled you, and I believe he used to mention to you, "You're going to win," or, or he wanted you to win. And I feel like that's... What, what did those things do? Because it's almost like you're saying he made you have this, almost this realization that you were wrong, but it seemed like he did it in a very graceful, elegant way. Like, how did, how did he do that?
- BGBill Gates
Absolutely. They... You know, I thought, "Oh, I need to be so clever to win, and I'm gonna apply all this energy to win." And so the idea when he says, "No, you're going to win," it's like, oh, I see. It's not because I'm clever. It's because [laughs] it's as... You know, they, they care for me, and they're trying, you know, to help me. And, you know, their main concern is, am I ready, you know, to go out in the world, and if I have capabilities, will I develop those and use those? And, you know, my mom always had a way of kind of pushing me to do more. I said to her once, you know, "You told me to go to the hardest school." And she said, "No, I never actually said that." And I said to her, "Well, wait a minute. When other parents would come over, you'd say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't go to college," or something like that.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
So, okay, it was indirect, but you know, it was kind of there. So, you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know, and sometimes I felt overwhelmed, uh, by that. But my eventual reaction to just, okay, try to outdo any, uh, levels she set and ended up working out
- 9:49 – 18:27
Pressure to Live Up to Parents Expectations
- BGBill Gates
well.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. What was something that you didn't value about your mom at that time that now looking back, you say, "No, I do value that"?
- BGBill Gates
Well, things like table manners. Um-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... I'm like, well, you know, okay, I have to take the ketchup and put it in a bowl and then do this, and I'm not supposed to put my elbows on the table. And, you know, she was just, you know, trying to make sure I was, uh, civilized a little bit, you know. Uh, what I would wear. And they definitely got me engaged with adults. You know, my social skills were slow to develop, uh, with people other than a few boys like myself. But with adults, because they were having them over, and I, you know, got so I could ask those adults to talk about what they were doing, that was really valuable to me 'cause I ended up, through that and, uh, through one of my early friends, having more of an outlook of, okay, where am I headed at quite a young age, um, which, uh, was, was super helpful.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's, it's so funny, as I was reading the book, I was reminded of, so when I graduated from college, I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left to become a monk.
- BGBill Gates
Wow.
- JSJay Shetty
And my parents were... They were very kind and accepting of my decision, but my mother still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture of me graduating-
- BGBill Gates
Ha
- JSJay Shetty
... wearing the hat and, you know, holding my certificate. And I remember I was having the same feeling that you were, where my mom would always maybe say to me, "Oh, when I go to my friends' houses, they're telling me about all the jobs that their kids are doing and the apartment they just moved into, and you're just there being a monk." Like, you know, she'd say that to me.
- BGBill Gates
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
And it was always that kind of feeling, like that, that sense of pressure to live up to something she wanted me to do, even though there was love and there was acceptance. And I was wondering for you, like you, you said it yourself, she was such a powerhouse. She had such high expectations. When did you feel that you've reached that, or do you feel you've reached that?
- BGBill Gates
Well, unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early sixties. She, uh, she got breast cancer. And, uh, so I had gotten married six months, uh, before she passes away. So she never got to see That I tried to follow her example as a, a parent. Uh, she never got to see the foundation, uh, get going. My dad actually ran the foundation and got it off to a fantastic start, so he was involved. But her sort of dictate about, "Okay, if you are successful, you have to give back," it's a, a shame, uh, that she didn't get to, uh, kind of participate and, uh, see that I'm following [laughs] what she said, uh, despite all the times I, I pushed back on her.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Do you still feel that today? That it's almost like she- her voice is in your head and she's present in that way?
- BGBill Gates
Oh, absolutely. The, you know, the sense I have of, "Okay, I've gotta do this and do that well," that's, you know, really came from her. My dad more set the example of being calm and thoughtful. You know, also great, great values, but much... You know, it wasn't through the, the interaction. He would, you know, leave pretty early, and if my mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew you [laughs] better give in, uh, 'cause that was kind of the, the ultimate thing. But yeah, so each in their own way, h- he through example, her through high expectations, deserve a, a lot of credit and, you know, part of this book is to really honor them and, uh, two of the young friends I had who set me on a, a, a great path. Well, it's pretty insane this is a world where somebody can have over $100 billion. [laughs] I mean, that... I- I- you know, what is that? You know, you don't wanna just give that to children and create some dynasty. That's not even a favor to them. Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than, uh, you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. I have a, a good friendship both with, uh, Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Uh, maybe that drives everybody else [laughs] together. I don't know.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] I was wondering, what was your biggest realization about your father from writing this book?
- BGBill Gates
It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was. His, his values, even the exchange with my mom, you know, before they get married, um, his-- one of his dreams was to be a federal judge, and he eventually, that was offered to him. And because his law firm, uh, would have had great difficulty, so he said, "No, I... That would hurt my colleagues, so I'm not gonna do that." And I had written him a note saying, "Gosh, I hope it's not 'cause you had to pay all that [laughs] tuition that you're not getting to do this." And I'd forgotten he'd written me back such a nice note. So, you know, in digging through, I'm amazed we ended up keeping those things. It was so touching to me. Now I, you know, I'll, I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to, to the example he set.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. What was it like finding that reply, forgetting that he had replied? I mean-
- BGBill Gates
No, well, certainly it, it brings tears to my eyes because, you know, h- he, he was incredible. And towards the end of his life, we did get a little more direct, you know, where he would say, "Hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard." And I'd say, "No, no. [laughs] That was fine to, uh, to be doing that," you know. And so instead of things being sort of through my mom, when she was gone, he had to build up that communication. In a way, it was far more intimate. You know, I, I feel lucky that he lived a- as long as he did.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. How did, how does that-- As that relationship evolved, like, it felt like when I was reading Source Code, I felt like your father was there to always save you in these moments. Like, he'd pick up the phone, he'd be involved in, you know, talking to you and your friends. Like, he was there in these very pivotal moments that felt like almost professional support from him. Of course, based on his intelligence and background as well. But it sounds like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space. Like, what does that, what does that look like for a father and a son across all those years?
- BGBill Gates
You know, and when I was going off to college, you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks, but, you know, you couldn't, like, text and send photos [laughs] and so... But I always knew, you know, that they were supportive. And so I actually got into a little bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the computer center and done some of the early Microsoft Basic work. And the college, as they filled position to supervise that computer center, were like, "Wow, did you break the rules?" And, you know, my dad was always so kind of wise, you know, whenever it was like, "Oh my God, I may [laughs] have screwed up here. I, I better get on top of this," you know, that's a time where I call him in, and his advice is very helpful. You know, then later, we have a customer who's not paying us, and our very first customer, another case where my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So it wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot, but that when I was in trouble, he was the one person, you know, who was so sophisticated and, you know, on my side that his advice really did, uh, help me at, at a lot of, uh, key, uh, turning points. And, you know, then later when we have a relationship where we actually talk intimately, I, I was able to, to thank him for that.
- JSJay Shetty
Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him and-
- BGBill Gates
Well, he got Alzheimer's, and he, because he was such a nice person, he was still, like, super nice, you know, always worried did his caregivers get enough meals or... You know, eventually, the fact he grew up in the Depression- Showed 'cause he'd be worried about, you know, are we buying too expensive-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... a meal, you know, even though he had as much money as he, he, he could ever need. You know, so, you know, we got back to his basic character, which was just very, uh, friendly and, and thoughtful. Uh, so yes, I, I feel like in his case, we did have those conversations that, that I, I never got to have with my mom.
- 18:27 – 20:00
'I Hear You'
- JSJay Shetty
Hmm. There's the one phone call, you described the three words he used of, "I hear you," when he was talking, uh, to the school, and that left such a strong imprint. Could you tell us why that was such a big moment for you at that time?
- BGBill Gates
Well, I was in this, uh, contract discussion with this group who I thought, you know, owed me some computer time. So that's the first time that my dad is pitching in to help, and you know, I thought, "What's he gonna do? Is he gonna, you know, threaten them or-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... be tough on them?" And no, not at all. The fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument, and then, you know, he just simply said, "I hear you," which was this very, this way of saying, you know, "I don't agree with that. You know, let's try and reach a compromise here. You have your point of view." So just the way he said, "I hear you," you know, kept things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position so we could get on to the, "Hey, you know, if you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both of you here?" Which is, is what, uh, eventually came out of it. And so the idea of being subtle and helping to find that common ground, I was young enough to, that just kind of blew my mind.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- BGBill Gates
Yeah, wow, you can kind of, uh, hold your ground, but without being provocative.
- 20:00 – 24:40
Parental Lessons
- JSJay Shetty
What would you say is the one way your mother influenced your parenting style, and then your father influenced your parenting style?
- BGBill Gates
Well, this idea that, uh, is actually kind of a school called Love and Logic, where you make expectations to the child very, very clear, and you make consequences very, very clear. And in an unemotional way, you say, "No, you're gonna have to go to your room because we agreed if you did this, that's what happens." My dad practiced that approach. My mom probably wanted to, but then if she was frustrated, you know, she'd be, "Oh, I'm so disappointed," and kind of bring emotion into it. So the intensity of how much my mom cared, I, you know, I think that was, was great. And I think kind of that calm, predictable, "Hey, the world, uh, works in a clear way, and you know, I'm on top of the world, and here's what I need from you," you know, that very much came from my dad. So I tried to be a little more around. You know, my, my wife Melinda did, deserves all the credit, you know, that our kids have come out so well 'cause she w- really was around. But I, I tried to be... That's the one thing I did a bit differently than my dad was, was, uh, more, more intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication, not through their mother.
- JSJay Shetty
How did you reconcile that towards the end about your father's style, and how did you make space for that and accept that?
- BGBill Gates
In that generation, you know, my dad's career was a very big thing. In fact, having all, all sorts of adults around for events, you know, was connected to his career and, you know, he did very well. He was a, a top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea that, that my, my dad was very busy. You know, you had kids early. You know, the man's career is important. Later, my mom also not only is doing volunteer activities, but as people wanted women on boards because she had the right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities, and she, uh, got a little busy herself.
- JSJay Shetty
Hmm.
- BGBill Gates
Um, you know, I don't think the amount of time is, is the only o- the only key factor there.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I'd have to agree. I was, I... When I was reading it too, I was thinking that. And, and this was what I found so interesting, Bill, when I was reading Source Code, that even though you have lived such a otherworldly life in so many ways, there were so many relatable moments from a, a parenting standpoint. And when I was reading it, I was thinking about my father too, who wasn't around a lot when I was younger. He was working. Both my parents had to work. And to the point you just made right now, like, my father wasn't there when I was playing rugby, or he wasn't there when I was swimming for my, you know, local club, or he, he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering. And for me, that really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be, and it allowed me to have more freedom almost to not feel like there was this heavy expectation. And I've always seen that as a positive thing because it allowed me to have a broader definition of what it meant to be a man, what it meant to be a son, what, what it meant to go off and discover something that I was passionate about. And so even seeing you kind of having your mother be the one who was almost, you know, pushing the expectation and what the family should be, but then having a bit of freedom, it was interesting to see how that impacted you to be able to push back, to be able to, you know, even at one point, like you said in that letter, like, parent him almost in his decision-
- BGBill Gates
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... uh, and, and, and play that role. So it was, it was refreshing for me to read a book about you where I was, where I was actually seeing parts of myself, uh, in certain relationships in a very relatable way. Did you, did you ever anticipate that when you were writing it?
- BGBill Gates
I was surprised. You know, so when I'm describing going on those hikes, I was thinking, "Boy, would I have let my son-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... go off, uh- And we really are holding back children a bit more, you know, out of a sense of okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But, you know, in that generation, I was allowed to take trips and hikes and, and I think it benefited me. And so writing the book, I was like, wow. And y- you've talked with people like Jonathan Haidt about this.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I love Jonathan.
- BGBill Gates
Are we a bit overprotecting, you know, kids so that they don't get to make, you know, mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that is, is best for them?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Do
- 24:40 – 29:57
Are Schools Failing Children?
- JSJay Shetty
you think school's failing children?
- BGBill Gates
If you have 30 people in a class, it's, it's pretty tough. You're gonna have some kids who are behind and some who are ahead. You know, even the best teacher has got a, a big challenge with that. Education, I wouldn't say is much better or worse today than a few decades ago. We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in, you know, will that helpful? And certainly if you wanna find information, it's been great. We're still working on that now with the AI, maybe a personal tutor will be encouraging and work on your level. Uh, it's early days, but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms. People like Sal Khan with Khanmigo that our foundation is, is helping to support. But education, uh, it-- the, the computer has not made it so, oh, wow, kids learn a lot more today, uh, than they did, did a long time ago. And I, I, I still believe we can change that, but it means if you're in one of those large classes, you can feel lost and, you know, we're, we're missing, you know, great human potential. You tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself. The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids, and I was like, "If I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude." You know, he's got a real problem, and I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out. Uh, so that scared me.
- JSJay Shetty
What is your favorite mental health habit? This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We talk a lot about red flags in relationships, the things to avoid. But what about green flags? Those qualities that show someone is kind, supportive, and emotionally safe. Like when they listen with empathy, respect your boundaries, or celebrate your growth. Therapy helps you not only spot these green flags, but also cultivate them in yourself and your relationships. It's a space to learn, grow, and build connections rooted in trust and love. Whether you're dating, married, creating deeper friendships, or focusing on your own journey, therapy can guide you toward relationships that pour positivity back into your life. That's where BetterHelp comes in. It's fully online, making therapy convenient and affordable, with over five million people already using it worldwide. You'll have access to a diverse network of more than thirty thousand credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. And if your first match isn't the right fit, you can switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jaystopthree to get ten percent off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P, .com/jaystopthree. What are we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and the ability to download more and learn more. Where have we gone wrong?
- BGBill Gates
Well, the key is, is motivation. If you have a kid who's super motivated, then yes, going to the Khan website and doing, you know, hours of math problems, that's great. But in a way, that takes the kid who's in that top twenty percent and makes him even more intimidating to the other ones. And, you know, people can come in and if a kid in eighth grade says, "Is math a subject you have any confidence in?" If they answer no to that, they're five times more likely to drop out. And so we do lose kids, and it's more out of motivation. And so most of the stuff we've done on the computer is about, okay, if you are motivated, we'll help you out, and not so much about how you make it feel relevant to them and give them a sense of success.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- BGBill Gates
And maybe this time around with these AI personal tutors, we'll, we'll get that right. But kids check out. Um, "No, I'm, I'm not one of those kids who's good at math," even though for a lot of professions and, you know, for college courses, we require Algebra Two, uh, tests to be passed in order to go on and, you know, even be a nurse or a, a policeman. So we have, we have work to do.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- BGBill Gates
Uh, but more on, on the motivational side.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I really, I really appreciate you saying that, actually, because I do think that we think about changing education as so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive, it is the motivation. And I was thinking about how we put limits on ourselves. When I finished sixth grade, I remember before I went to high school, my favorite subject was math in sixth grade, and my least favorite subject was art. And then when I finished high school, my most favorite subject was art, and my least favorite subject was math.
- BGBill Gates
Huh.
- JSJay Shetty
And it was just fascinating to me how that completely flipped over s- a seven-year period. And as, as I've grown up in my own life, I found that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up until sixth grade was the limits or the things that were expected of me as opposed to what I was motivated and driven towards. And
- 29:57 – 32:35
Undiagnosed ADHD and ASD
- JSJay Shetty
I was thinking about something you said in the book. You, you said that if you were growing up today, you would've been diagnosed with, uh, being on the autism spectrum. And I was wondering, how would that have affected you? How do you think that would've affected you?
- BGBill Gates
Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people Being given a label is a pejorative to them and, you know, almost feels shameful. Although we know, you know, being on the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowers of concentration that if you find the right place, it can be helpful. Other people, it, they're glad when they get that because then it, they say, "Oh, that's why, you know, my social skills were slowed to develop and, you know, here's some strategies that people like me have used. I'm not alone in this, you know, I, I fit in into this," and it's actually a, a reasonably common thing. There isn't, like some medicine, ADHD, you know, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with, uh, they do have the Focalin, Adderall, a variety of things they give kids for that, and I, I still wonder about that. I haven't chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use those medicines. I think eventually you learn to, you know, adapt. I still kind of rock a little bit that when I'm thinking hard and without even knowing it, and it does bother people sometimes, and that's definitely kind of a, what they call self-stimulation, uh, behavior that, you know, makes it pretty likely I, I fit into that, uh, diagnosis.
- JSJay Shetty
Do you think it would have changed your trajectory or success? Have you thought about that or?
- BGBill Gates
I, I worry that I might have thought of it as pejorative. It, it's really how you communicate it.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- BGBill Gates
I mean, if you say, "Hey, here's a kid who n- doesn't socialize at all," and you're, you know, sort of destined to, you know, never be good at those things. Um, you know, obviously, to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go out and, you know, sell the, the dream-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
-of computing, I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, you know, develop a lot of social behaviors. And it might have discouraged me unless it, it was done in a, a very tasteful way. You know, I think of that Dr. Cressy experience, where he didn't make me feel terrible while enlightening me that I was wasting my time as well as my
- 32:35 – 36:44
How Do You Deal with Grief?
- BGBill Gates
parents' time.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Did you, did you continue therapy after that or ever go-
- BGBill Gates
Yes, I-
- JSJay Shetty
-to therapy again?
- BGBill Gates
Uh, most periods of my life, I found it useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about, you know, what's confusing or, or what's troubling. I think, you know, I'm, I'm very lucky to have that. I think particularly if you have a life where some extreme things happen, that, you know, luck is a huge part of that to, you know, keep your, you know, keep you on the ground. A, a good therapist can play an invaluable role there. So yeah, I've, I've benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Well, I was thinking about in the book, obviously, you beautifully introduced us to Kent, and obviously, the loss of Kent seems to be a place in your memory that's naturally so difficult and, and fuzzy. And you talk about in the book how you're not quite sure what your parents would have said and, and how it all felt, and I was just wondering if there were any-- did you, did you have support at that time through therapy and other ways to deal with that grief?
- BGBill Gates
No, and I've been looking recently at, uh, people like Anderson Cooper talking about, okay, how do you deal with grief? And, you know, a lot of what they come up with is that if you can keep talking about the person and, you know, what you got from them, you're kind of honoring them. You know, Kent's parents, obviously, were the most affected by this because, you know, they would never have this in-incredible son and, you know, who would've no doubt gone off and done incredible things. And I remember spending time with them for, like a year afterwards and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy, uh, I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book, I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I run into him right as I'm, uh, starting work on the book and, you know, we can talk about what a great influence he had on me and, you know, so I did, I did think that was helpful. But boy, it took me a long time because death, it was just such a shocking thing. I have this idyllic childhood, other than Kent's death, nothing at all traumatic, and we're talking all the time. You know, a little bit, I reach out to Paul to kind of feel, Paul Allen, who goes on to found Microsoft with me, to step in and, you know, be that, that super close friend. Um, but back then, the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly, "Hey, buck up," you know, "Get on with things," which after a few months, I, I did.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And also at that time, you're talking about how he actually invited you on the trip he went to, and like, you're talking just before he goes off, and then all of a sudden you're like, "Wait a minute, we used to talk every day" or, you know, and, and that, it can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment, it feels like. How did you revisit that when-- did you kind of turn towards working through the grief as you wrote the book? Did it feel like you were revisiting it because it was left-
- BGBill Gates
Oh, def- definitely. You know, at the, that high school when I, I built a hall in his name and, you know, gone out there and talked a, a little bit about, um, the, the role that Kent played in my evolution, you know. So some efforts to honor him. You know, sadly, you know, Paul Allen also, the other- Key friend in this book died, I think about six years ago from cancer. And, you know, he, he also was very key at getting me on the right path, and there wouldn't be, you know, without those, those two friends, you know, there really wouldn't, probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. You talk about how Paul was setting you little challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this or do that, and then you'd go ahead, and I was thinking how amazing to have a friend that can motivate and inspire you in that way. And
- 36:44 – 40:20
Keep Looking Forward
- JSJay Shetty
then I was thinking about what you just said when I was reading the book, that it felt like you told so many stories of so many people in your life that are no longer here now. And so grief wasn't just about Ken or Paul, it was... There's so, you know, just so many individuals that you've had life with that you're having to process that with. What has been helpful for you, genuinely, deeply inside, that has led to some sort of helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about all these wonderful people that you've lost?
- BGBill Gates
Well, most of my life has been about looking forward-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- BGBill Gates
... and okay, let's get this innovation and let's do it first, and, you know, whether it's software or, uh, saving children's lives, which is the, the big foundation thing. And it is a little bit unnatural for me to look back because you have to say, "Okay, how do I describe my relationship with my mom in a open, honest way and, and yet honor her?" You know, how do I talk about Ken? Well, I don't know if he'd lived what would've happened, but, uh, you know, probably, you know, something that he, he would've very much been a part of it. And so it's, it's awkward to look back because you, you have to deal with these things and talk about, you know, you know, should have I spent more time with his parents afterwards, you know, 'cause eventually I, I stopped doing that. Uh, but, you know, this year I turned 70. I mentally don't feel like, I think of a 70-year-old, but, you know, it means, you know, I'm in the, the final third, uh, no doubt of, you know, what I've, I've been very lucky to, to live. And so, you know, I, I really did force myself say, "No, there's some lessons out of this." You know, telling people how lucky I was and maybe a few lessons for them as, as parents or how they, uh, navigate, uh, success. And so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I have to say, when I'm reviewing it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm, you know, reliving these things, so it always takes me about three times longer to take some pages and, and edit than I, I predict, or if it was, you know, something like about climate or pandemics, you know, I'm, I'm pretty fast. There's no deep emotion [chuckles] that I have to relive as I'm, uh, editing, uh, s- something scientific.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. What w- what was your favorite part to relive, and what was the hardest part to relive?
- BGBill Gates
Well, everything about the fascination we had, and it's like, "What? We see this thing. These computers are gonna be amazing and... but no one else is saying that-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... so we must be wrong." Um-
- JSJay Shetty
That's crazy, man
- BGBill Gates
... and, and, you know, that contradiction. So, you know, Paul, actually, I helped him get a job out in Boston so he could be out there and, and bugging me that, "Okay, should we go build a company?" And then finally, when this kit computer, which is so limited, but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out, then, you know, Paul's argument, we should go and do something, he, he wins because we don't want to be left behind. We wanna, wanna be there from the very beginning. And then we meet a few people, although it was still a very small movement. We meet other people like Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, who also, you know, have been infected with this idea of, okay, we're onto to something that, uh, is going
- 40:20 – 45:30
Working Alongside Steve Jobs
- BGBill Gates
to be huge.
- JSJay Shetty
That part, I mean, the, the research that you did to find in this book, I was-- every time I was reading it, I was just like, "How do you have so much detail?" I was really blown away by the level of detail, both in the storytelling, every moment. But then even there's that note that you have that says, "Steve Jobs called, was rude."
- BGBill Gates
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
And, [laughs] and I was just like, you know, even just having that back then, I was, I was laughing as I read it. And I, and I was wondering, like, I feel like as from the outside, and naturally, and, and you talk about this later on in the book, how we see people as this, like, slither of who they are, and people have a p- public profile, and that becomes their brand. And if you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind of like archrival, nemesis kind of portrayal. What was it actually like? Because it, in the book, it comes across much more, um, inviting than that, as opposed to this kind of harsh rivalry.
- BGBill Gates
Well, I had a fantastic relationship with Steve. You know, early on, I got to do the, the basic, which they called AppleSoft, that went with every, uh, Apple II computer. Uh, so I worked with both Jobs and Wozniak, uh, to get that done. Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write application software, a spreadsheet word processor for it. And so we actually had as many people as they did, and we worked very closely on that project. And he and I loved the fact that, you know, that ended up being a, a key Apple product. Um, then he leaves Apple. I talked to him about NeXT, but I never thought that computer would do that well-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... so he was disappointed. Uh, but then when he goes back and he's- Unbel- it's unbelievable what a great job he did because Apple went from being on the way to dying to being the world's most valuable company, and Steve had really matured, and it's-- was something. And I, you know, we, we helped write software for that. Then later when Steve, uh, is sick, we had about five different conversations where we got to talk about kids and, you know, had computers done well and, you know, where he was pretty thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve, you know, his skill set and mine, other than, okay, you know, madman, leader, you know, drawing people in. But he, his taste in design and user interface and even his intuition about people, he was just genius in a way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and write code, whereas, you know, my thing is, "Hey, I'm an engineer, you know, here's the code. Let's make it faster and, and smaller." So actually, that allowed us to get along because, you know, what he was super good at, I was not good at. I envied those just incredible talents that he had. In some ways, he's more singular. You know, if you say to me, "Are there other people like you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing?" Yeah, I can name a number of people, including many who worked with me. But I don't know somebody who's-- who I say, "Oh yeah, you know, he, he's just like Steve Jobs."
- JSJay Shetty
Wow. Well, that's very humble of you as well. I mean, that's, it's beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations like that you had with him that were potentially-- It always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more so in those moments.
- BGBill Gates
Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we were being thoughtful about the friendship. Uh, Walt Mossberg had us, had us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing, and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. Uh, you know, he was a, you know, oh, he said we were the General Motors, and he was like the Mercedes. Uh, uh, but-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
You know, all in, uh... It was all, uh, very fair. Well, we, you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education and where both he and I had given speeches saying, "Of course, th- this will b- make education, you know, five times better." And we're like, "Wow, uh, we got that one wrong. Maybe, you know, maybe next round-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
-uh, we'll deliver on that promise." And you know how unusual it was and even a little bit lonely that, you know, when you're so successful and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making, uh, mistakes here? Um, you know, both of us had had kids by then. He was actually, uh... You know, of course, he not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- BGBill Gates
And because that was a realm I, I'm not in, I, you know, could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did. Now partly picking people, but that's, you know, kind of amazing, uh, you know, now ha- part of, of Disney. And you know, and both a sense of thankfulness, although, you know, he was very sick and just hoping some new drug would come along and tragically
- 45:30 – 49:50
Healthy Competition in Business
- BGBill Gates
it, it didn't.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Was there a memor- memorable piece of advice or conversation where you said something to him or he said something to you that has stayed with you?
- BGBill Gates
Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both so competitive in pushing ahead? I, I think both of us... You know, in his case, he's an orphan, so he has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal. Um, I don't have anything like that, you know. Even though Kent died, that's not why, you know... Well before that I was somehow always, you know, pushing as hard as I could be. Um, and you know, I think both of us, you know, being thankful for what we'd been able to work on. I mean, you know, we got more of a front row seat and helped build this thing. Steve never got around to doing philanthropy. Now his, uh, widow Laurene is doing great philanthropy. So you know, that's, uh, I'm sure he'd, he'd be proud of that. But he didn't get to that stage, and I was just getting into that stage, so I shared with him a little bit about, wow, a lot of children die, and we don't do much to stop that. And that kind of intrigued him, but then he never got to pursue it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. You re- you reminded me of something I read in, uh, Bob Iger's book where he was talking about how there was a time when Spielberg, George Lucas, they'd all sit together and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback. And they all felt very confident doing that because they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse. And so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Steven's gonna steal my idea, or, you know, George Lucas is gonna steal my idea because they felt so confident. And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors to talk, to have a relationship, does that still happen today? Do, do competitors talk? Do they pick up the phone to each other? Or was that very rare? Because it feels like if-- it, it feels definitely now so less.
- BGBill Gates
Uh, I have a, a good friendship both with, uh, Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Uh, maybe that drives everybody else [laughs] together. I don't know.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
Uh, and, you know, over time, I think Elon, uh, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow out-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
-a little bit and, uh, you know, probably be a incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes, there is some good conversation. You know, Larry Ellison is now in a phase where he's doing some excellent, uh, philanthropy and, and we're all a bit more reflective. I mean, hopefully by the time you get to seventy, you've been, you've been hyper successful, you can, you know, relax and let your guard down a little bit and, you know, laugh about, uh, the things you got wrong.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. What, what was some of the advice that you've given to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even more recently?
- BGBill Gates
Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft, uh, the one- Big challenge we had is we were so successful by the late '90s that we got into antitrust difficulties, and in retrospect, we could have handled that better. And so I've been very, uh, open with Mark. You know, I used to brag that I didn't have an office in DC, and I didn't... You know, what a great country that I didn't have to talk to politicians. Well, that was a mistake. Uh [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
Uh, you know, now, you know, you've got all of them going to the inauguration and, you know, so they're not, they're not making that mistake. Uh, maybe they... Have they corrected too much in the other direction? Well, you know, hist-history will, will judge. So yeah, I'm, you know, it's weird to be kind of an elder statesman. Uh, you know, Satya, who runs Microsoft, has done such a, a brilliant job, and, and one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Ballmer did a great job, and now Satya's with this AI generation. So I've- that's another great blessing, is that not only the value of the stock, but also the fact I can just focus on, okay, what about polio and malaria, you know, knowing that they're, they're taking the, the company to new heights. You know, what, what a great blessing, uh, that's been for me.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, it seems like... I love what you were just saying now that, you know, maybe there'll be a time when Elon turns to
- 49:50 – 56:10
Dedicating Time to Philanthropy
- JSJay Shetty
philanthropy, and you talked about others, and it, and it seems that that turning point for you is so key. And I feel like you were one of the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one of the first to do it in a really big way, to be able to move away from this big company that you founded, world-changing, um, generation-changing, and then turning to that. And that service element to me, I was intrigued as to wh-why do you believe that that's almost where every one of these people need to go? Like, why is it that you believe that turning to a life of service and giving back is core for Elon or whoever else it may be?
- BGBill Gates
Well, it's pretty insane this is a world where somebody can have over $100 billion. I mean, that... Uh, you know, what is that? And it's not... You know, you don't wanna just give that to children and create some dynasty. That's not even a favor to them. Y-you want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes, and if you're a great innovator, and you know how to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there are some... Government is risk-averse, and particularly poor countries don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or solving malnutrition. It- there is something that philanthropy can have these outsized results in terms of lives saved, almost like, you know, a great startup, uh, does on the site of innovation. So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity to the poorest, both inside the US and outside the US, you know, I feel that, you know, we've got the golden rule. We're s- we're supposed to care about people. There are times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside the country is lower today, uh, than it's been, but I know that'll come back around because of the, the moral logic there, I think, uh, I, I believe is, is, is very, very strong. And I, you know, I found it so fulfilling, and I created a, a group called Giving Pledge of, of people who've, uh, committed to give the majority of their wealth away, and we learn from each other. Hopefully, we inspire each other, and hopefully, we change the societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune, most of it should combine with your, your talents and make the world a, a bit more of a, of a fair, fair place.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I think, I, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really fortunate when I, when I went out and lived, uh, as part of my time as a monk in India, we helped, uh, put together a... Well, the monks were doing already-
- BGBill Gates
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... but I, I got to be a part of it. Uh, helped build a, um, daily food distribution service in India-
- BGBill Gates
Wow
- JSJay Shetty
... that feeds a million kids a day.
- BGBill Gates
Wow.
- JSJay Shetty
And it was all in exactly what you're saying, like, to help the malnutrition children, and now they're even trying to figure out how much protein to have in it, then, like, trying to figure out the actual composition as well. And I remember seeing that so early in my life, like, I would've gone out there first time in my teens and then later on when I became a monk in my early 20s. But the reason I raise it is because I think it goes back to what the point you made earlier about motivation. And one thing I've really been trying to figure out with the right partner recently is how when I grew up, I remember my dad used to read the rich list, and he'd have the rich list, like the Sunday Times or whatever it was. And so as a kid, I would see my dad, and on the back of it would be the rich list. And I was thinking, how incredible would it be if kids grew up with a service list, and how would that change motivation? Because I feel we reward... We repeat what we reward, and I feel like we've never really seen that case study yet up until maybe, you know, your case study and, and the people that are following with the Giving Pledge, that service becomes a natural part of life at that scale. I think we see it in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at that level. And so I find that changing that drive and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother had for you, your impact of faith had in you, I think that could be huge. I don't know what you think about people seeing a service list instead of a rich list or whatever the right word is.
- BGBill Gates
Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than, uh, you know, the impact you've had Philanthropically. And part of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there. You know, I've tried to think through, okay, you know, since we know how to save lives for a thousand dollars per life saved, wow, we better, you know, use this money, uh, as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're gonna see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, you know, these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty, I don't think society should feel th-that good about it. And you know, I, I sat down with Bernie Sanders and he said, no, he would outlaw billionaires. I, I think that's a mistake. I think allowing in America in particular, wild innovation, wild risk-taking, uh, is good, but then on the backside of that, there, there should be a strong expectation. And I think role models help a lot. You know, Warren Buffett in very different industry, very different skill set, you know, he's always been a role model and was the one who, who even when I was, uh, still building the fortune said, "Okay, your mom is right."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
You know, "And here's some books you should read." You know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth, the history of what Rockefeller did, you know, because this, this will be im- an important as, as important a measure of your impact as, as making the money.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful one to pass on. What,
- 56:10 – 57:47
Talking With President Donald Trump
- JSJay Shetty
uh, I think it was Trump who mentioned ear- recently that you'd asked to see him to have a discussion. Did that meeting ever happen?
- BGBill Gates
Yeah, I had a, a very long and actually very impressive dinner in terms of he asked good questions. Uh, you know, I talked about over ten million people are alive because of US generosity, uh, with HIV medicines going back to, uh, President Bush in two thousand three, and you know, I encouraged him to keep that as a priority and to accelerate innovation. Uh, you know, there's an idea that you might be able to cure AIDS that we're working on, and he could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and how, uh, his leadership and the US government resources are very important there. And, you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to meet with him. The fact he gave me that long period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions. You know, somebody may come along later and tell him to cut that money, but I make the argument as best I can, uh, that, you know, the moral purpose of the US and, and how we're thought of and, you know, the fact that a cure is, is on its way, that's worthwhile. Uh, you know, so this administration is in charge and, you know, trying to help them. You know, they're willing to cancel old things, some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't, you know. So they're, you know, helping direct them so they'll use their open-mindedness to do different things and try and make that come out well. I, you know, I think that's, that's worth trying.
- 57:47 – 1:01:00
AI Will Change Everything By 2028
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. What, what do you see as the moral purpose of the United States in the way you mentioned it just now?
- BGBill Gates
Well, we've been the shining light of not only being a democracy ourselves and, you know, having political opponents respect each other and work well together, but also, you know, saying that even though we're in this very powerful position, we won't abuse that position. And okay, we allowed ourselves, you know, to let other people s-spend too little on some things. You know, there's, there's a balance there. But if you become too much of a bully and you're not keeping democracy, which, you know, requires reducing the polarization, uh, and bridging, uh, some of these divides, uh, that's a little bit scary. You know, democracy's a, a fragile concept and particularly at a time when AI is coming along and the government will have to play a strong role in saying, okay, these jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore, here's how we help, uh, those people. You know, how do we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a, uh, thing that bad people use and it messes up these job markets? That, I expect the twenty-twenty presidential debate AI policies will be the most important thing and I was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't, uh, discussed hardly at all.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, that's such a good point. I di- I didn't actually think of that, but you're right. It didn't, it didn't come up at all. Yeah, that's fascinating. What, how-- I mean, how do you prepare for something like that? It would need, need to be surrounded by the right people and having the parties.
- BGBill Gates
Well, you've got to educate everyone. You know, you can't count on the technologists to, to shape these things. You know, s-social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be and, you know, the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things that even if they're not at all factual and AI heightens all of that. And you know, this is an era where getting the politicians to see the technology, including all this good stuff, personal tutors, better medical care, even making the government more efficient, you know, this is the most promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, you know, AIs actually are pretty darn good at, at reading and, uh, processing, uh, those kinds of things. So, you know, we're on the precipice of these AI breakthroughs, the reliability and, uh, capabilities. You know, it's kind of an extension of what I worked on as a ch- a child, you know, personal computers, then internet, then cell phones. Uh, and now AI, but it's because it's, it's super intelligence, um, it's of a different character and will-- it'll put us to the test on how we work together within the US and how, how countries work together.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's, uh, interesting
- 1:01:00 – 1:04:14
Why Facebook & X Are Making A Dangerous Mistake
- JSJay Shetty
because as you're talking about social media there, I think Mark Zuckerberg on Joe Rogan was saying that they are taking away their fact checkers, and I believe Ax is-- X is doing something similar. What was your take on that?
- BGBill Gates
You know, this whole thing of how you balance free speech versus not, you know, discouraging people from using vaccines when that would be beneficial for them, or even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial or some bad things there. I'm a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a clear prescription to how, uh, we achieve both the goals, free speech and yet, uh, uh, reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some of which, you know, had me being some, you know, weird mis- uh, behaving actor, you know, which was a lot of craziness. You know, clearly over a million people died who should have benefited, uh, from the vaccine. And next time, you know, whether it's an out-of-control AI or the next pandemic, the impact of, of not getting facts out could be much more dramatic. I mean, it-- the next... You could have a pathogen that was ten times or 20 times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once Omicron comes along, the fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and, and mostly elder people. So politics meets AI, uh, is, is where a lot of our fates will be determined even in the, the next ten years.
- JSJay Shetty
And how do you see your role in that?
- BGBill Gates
Well, hopefully, there's some things I, I really do, uh, understand about that. And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my foundation work on education and health, you know, using it. You know, the place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers and doctors is in poor countries in Africa. And so the fact that these things, you know, can give farmers advice and give a pregnant woman advice and look at what your kid is eating and say, "No, you need more protein in this diet." And it's essentially free. You know, the way that computing was free that I saw when I was young, now we're getting into this even more radical thing of intelligence will, uh, basically-
- JSJay Shetty
Be free
- BGBill Gates
... be free. You know, that, that's kind of wild stuff. So I hope both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons of a past of, you know, where we've been able to shape things so far, you know, so that I think personal computing has largely been an empowering thing. You know, I was reading this book, Nexus, where Harari says that when the printing press comes along, it actually is books about witches, uh, and how you find witches that are the best-selling. So j-just thinking because we have new capabilities that we'll necessarily use them at first in a b- net beneficial way, that's sadly a, a naive concept.
- 1:04:14 – 1:11:37
How Humanity Can Work Together Instead of Against Each Other
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, that... I mean, you've raised such a good point there. Even this idea, I loved what you said, that you said you wish your generation could have figured out how to have-- not have these extreme polarizing conversations, but actually find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms, whether that be through how we use technology. What is it that... Why do we keep doing that? It almost feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas, but then we always use it for almost the same thing or something that feels, m- you know, insignificant compared to what it could do. Where, where are we going wrong? Why can't we get that right?
- BGBill Gates
Well, it's kind of amazing how well humanity has done. You know, the, you know, the violent death rate over hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know, more recently, we've gotten, uh, vaccines out to children and gotten the annual death rate from ten million a year at the turn of the century down to about five million, vaccines being the biggest, uh, part of that because we got them out to most of the world's children. So humanity for a, a being that grew up in these small hunter-gatherer groups, now, you know, we have, uh, big cities, complex technology. Our ability to get along, you know, in some ways has been good. You know, nuclear weapons that when I was young, you know, my greatest fear was, okay, there was gonna be a nuclear war. And I do worry the current generation, uh-
- JSJay Shetty
Is that too
- BGBill Gates
... doesn't have that exposure to it, sort, you know, the arms treaties and, you know, spending too much money on building those weapons. I do worry that we've lost, uh, track on that one, but at least, you know, we haven't, uh, used those. And, you know, we've done pretty well so far. And, you know, will we this time? I think this is, is probably the hardest innovation because, you know, we do have human limitations. They... Even I, when I see an outrageous article against somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click on it and, and have it tell me, "Yeah, he's even stupider than you thought," or, you know, "He... This is a, a mistake." You know, we're all, uh, subject, uh, to that. And, and we do like to form into groups. But, you know, all of humanity, ideally, is a group where philanthropically and, you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves as being part of that as opposed to a much, you know, our clan or, uh, race or nation.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I think on a global level, it requires what you were saying, and on a personal level, it requires us to almost be Able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know, have, have self-awareness, allow for self-reflection, space for, you know, the things we don't have time for anymore.
- BGBill Gates
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
You know, I was, I was, uh, looking into something called the third space theory and how in the past you had your home, you had work, and then you had church or temple or community center, and how those three spaces, that third space was a place you could look back on home and work and say, "I could treat my wife a little bit better," or, "I could have spoken to my colleague a bit better." And that third space allowed that time and energy where it was all about reflecting on how you could improve. But today we've lost three spaces into two into one, where we work from home, live at home, and the screen is our third space. And so that lack of having a physical body or building that gives you permission to step back from your whole life, not play a role there, and, and actually purvey what's going on in your life, we've lost that.
- BGBill Gates
Yeah. That's a shame.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- BGBill Gates
Uh, you know, the decline of religion is a, a very strong trend. You'd hope there'd be a modern religion that takes whatever's put people off and yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this, okay, at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- BGBill Gates
If you expect government to figure out how to solve things, you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church-based groups, "Oh, this person needs help, I have extra time," you know, is way more effective. And so we expect too much from government in a way. So I hope we can re-energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious modernization or maybe just a community thing that is maybe spiritual but not, uh, labeled as, as religion. That local engagement where you see other people, that I think we need more of it.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely. Absolutely. Bill, I've got you for a couple more moments, and, uh, there's a few things I wanted to ask you. One was, you talked about how, in the book, how being the smartest person in the room and that status was something that you maybe hid behind and, and your insecurities were hidden behind. And I was wondering, is that something that you've been able to put down that guard and, and take that away as time has moved on? How, how were you able to do that?
- BGBill Gates
Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
Uh, you know, to learn how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways. You know, at Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople, at the foundation, you know, people who go out in the field and do heroic work. And so my, you know, sort of single view of, okay, math cap- capacity is, you know, this, this great thing, I've, I've mellowed and, you know, been able to bring in different skill sets. But no, I, I, I started off being pretty bad at that.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] What were those insecurities that you were hiding?
- BGBill Gates
Well, you, you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake in programming or math, I'm very tough on myself and, you know, I'm like, "You need to spend more time. You need to work harder." And it's kind of a tough love, don't fool yourself, uh, thing. And so my early management style worked for people like me, but not as well for other people. And so year by year, you know, I did grow with Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs, you know, don't stay as, as CEO and you have to bring in someone else. I wanted to do that. And so by bringing in some other people, I got better at that. I would say moving over to the foundation was another level of how you, you bring in a different mix of talent. And so yeah, I'm trying. I'm still trying.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
I- I- I'll be better a year from now. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Well, I was most excited that you said there's still two more books coming after this one to talk about the different areas of your life, and I, I really enjoyed this one so much. I'm so excited for people to read it, to, to get to know you better, to get to know the people that have changed your life for the better and allow you to do all the incredible, phenomenal work you do today. And I, I honestly am so inspired by the work you do today, and I, I really hope that I can, uh, be involved in some small way. So I thank you deeply.
- BGBill Gates
Well, thank you. It's been fantastic.
- JSJay Shetty
It means
- 1:11:37 – 1:21:19
Bill on Final Five
- JSJay Shetty
the world. Bill, we, we end every episode with a final five.
- BGBill Gates
Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
These questions have to be asked in... answered in one word-
- BGBill Gates
Uh-oh
- JSJay Shetty
... to one sentence maximum.
- BGBill Gates
All right.
- JSJay Shetty
Uh, so Bill Gates, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
- BGBill Gates
You know, finding what you really enjoy doing, uh, and hopefully there's some job that, that has that, uh, as opposed to, you know, what jobs pay well or other people push you to. If you're doing something you really enjoy, that's hard to beat.
- JSJay Shetty
And you found that early.
- BGBill Gates
I, I was super lucky on, on that. You know, computers were there, uh, right when I needed them.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Uh, second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
- BGBill Gates
People will tell you not to take risks, and it's very well intentioned, uh, but there are contexts, you know, when you're young, you know, like people say, "Okay, it must have been scary to drop out." Not really. I mean, I could have gone back. You know, there's no flesh wounds involved, uh, in, in failure. You know, so failure's, you know, probably a better teacher and, and more of an okay thing. And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know, emotional safety- In many cases that we've, we've gone too far
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Did, but did dropping out that, at that time feel like a big risk?
- BGBill Gates
No, it didn't.
- JSJay Shetty
No, not even.
- BGBill Gates
The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids, and I was like, "If I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude." You know, he's got a real problem, and I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out. Uh, so that scared me.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Was that... There- there's a scene in The Social Network where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg's in your, in the auditorium, and then they leave and they say, "The speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting in this room." And then Mark goes, "That is Bill Gates." Is that true?
- BGBill Gates
That is absolutely-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... true. Mark and I have laughed about that a lot, that our experience at Harvard, dropping out of Harvard, you know, telling people that, "Hey, we saw something other people didn't see," uh, very, very similar.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Uh, question number three: What would you say is the most important problem the smartest people on the planet should be solving right now?
- BGBill Gates
There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest, which we're kind of losing that. But I would say shaping AI has, for me, uh, risen to the, the top of that list. I... We need to do all those. We can't just skip, [laughs] you know, the, any of those, but this one is, is gonna be a, a very big deal in, in the, in the next decade.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. And what would be your advice to the biggest business leaders in the world in regard to that?
- BGBill Gates
Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their competitive framework is to go full speed. And so only government's in a position to say, "Wait a minute. Slow down." You know, for the good stuff, you want them to lower the price and get it done sooner. And so we can't... Although yes, they should be part of the dialogue, and they're humans and citizens too, but you can't count on them because the metric for them is to go full speed.
- JSJay Shetty
Question number four: What is your favorite mental health habit?
- BGBill Gates
You know, it's a very big deal for me to get time reading and, and thinking by myself, whether it's on a walk or going driving. When I was CEO of Microsoft, I took two full weeks, think weeks, one every six months, where I would just go off by myself, uh, and think, "Okay, is Microsoft on track? What are the trends?" Towards the end, I'd write a memo, which actually, uh, was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists and turns, like when the internet comes along or, you know, software's not reliable enough. You know, I need that time to think. Even though I love quick thinking, you know, being in a meeting and-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- BGBill Gates
... spotting a mistake, most of my good work has come from the kind of slow thinking, where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up with some non-obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's a little bit my, you know, being on the spectrum, I, I need that, that refreshment. You know, when I, I see my schedule with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll try and make sure the next week has a little bit less of that. But, you know, to maintain creativity, you have to have some calmness and be not behind. If you feel like you're behind, like you turn on your email like, "Ah, uh, oh, I'm late," uh, you know, that, that, your creativity gets, gets squeezed out one, one of the first things.
- JSJay Shetty
And does that think week need to be in nature? Are you away from everything? Is it... Are you simply thinking? Are you taking books? Are you journaling or is it-
- BGBill Gates
I'm taking books to read, but I'm also taking very long walks. Um-
Episode duration: 1:21:19
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