Cynthia Erivo: "I Was Working To Prove That I Was Worth Loving" #1 Way To Know it's time to LEAVE!

Speaker 0:00 I can tell when I walk into a room when someone wants me there or not. Terrible tendency to sort of almost shut down immediately. The Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning actor and singer you know from The Color Purple, Harriet, and Wicked.

Speaker 0:12 Oscar-nominated incredible actor, singer, author, and producer.

Speaker 0:17 Cynthia Erivo.

Jay Shetty 0:19 What is the right type of validation to crave?

Speaker 0:21 All of it is healthy and all of it is unhealthy. So it's lovely to hear it, but if you don't feel that way about yourself, none of the comments, none of the making someone finally fall in love with you matters.

Jay Shetty 0:33 You always felt like you didn't fit in.

Speaker 0:34 I had to come to terms with the fact that I don't think I'm ever going to fit in, and why would I want to?

Jay Shetty 0:40 We don't wanna let people down. We want people to be happy. We don't wanna break someone's heart, but the reality is that is how the way things go.

Speaker 0:47 You feel like a villain for doing it, for hurting someone. And this may be a hard thing to say, but sometimes hurting someone actually aids the growth of another person.

Jay Shetty 0:58 Have you ever been heartbroken? The number one health and wellness podcast.

Speaker 1:04 Jay Shetty.

Speaker 1:05 Jay Shetty.

Speaker 1:06 The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:10 You were literally just walking me through your schedule.

Speaker 1:12 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:13 And I wanna start with just how your life has been a whirlwind. First of all, you shot two movies [laughs] .

Speaker 1:19 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:19 Not one.

Speaker 1:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:21 And you were traveling the world. Obviously, we all saw the press tour, which was absolutely insane and amazing and crazy. You were performing at the Oscars. Like, you know, it's just unbelievable. And then I was asking you, like, have you even had the moment to take a break?

Speaker 1:36 Not, not really.

Jay Shetty 1:38 [laughs]

Speaker 1:38 But I've been trying to make sure that I put some time in to just sort of breathe. I went from the Oscars, the day after the Oscars, I went to South Africa and I was shooting a movie. I haven't completed the movie yet, but I'm gonna go back and finish, but I had finished that set of it, and then I went to London. But within that time, whilst I was in South Africa, I was lucky enough to have, like, just a couple of days where I didn't need to be on set. And so I would literally use those days to rest. And I don't mean going to do things and using them for my own t- Like, literally staying in bed and resting.

Jay Shetty 2:14 Mm.

Speaker 2:14 'Cause I hadn't done that for a really long time, and I, I realized that my, my body and my brain and my heart really needed it. So I sort of fed myself like that, just stopped for a second. What I'm trying to do, because I know it is going to ramp up again and get crazy again, even before the next movie comes out, and with this album and all of the things that are happening this year

Speaker 2:39 alone, before the end of the year, I know it's going to get insane. So I think I'm trying to be conscious about how much rest I put in and how I put my, my schedule so I, there are times where I just, this day is going to be for rest. Actually, we don't need to do that, let's, let's move it to this day so that there's a consecutive amount of s- time to sleep.

Jay Shetty 2:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:58 Time to just be, 'cause I think it's important and I think it makes me a healthier person.

Jay Shetty 3:03 What do you do to keep yourself so healthy and fit and alert? Because your work's so demanding.

Speaker 3:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:09 Not just the travel, but we saw your performance.

Speaker 3:12 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:12 We saw the behind the scenes. We saw the audition tape. It's so physically, mentally, and emotionally challenging.

Speaker 3:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:20 Now, what are you doing on top of everything you just said that, to really stay-

Speaker 3:24 I'm really picky about how I feed myself. So it's, I take my vitamins every day, and that sounds very, very pedantic and it sounds v- like, almost like a kid, but I do take vitamins every single day. I make sure I'm eating in the right way. When I fly, and this is not, and please, all airlines, do not blame me if people stop eating the food. Please, I want you to eat if you need to. But I don't eat on planes, I bring my food with me, because I, I really need to know what I'm putting in my body, and usually when I land, I go straight to something. I don't usually get the chance to sort of stop and reset. I have to go from one thing to another almost immediately. I drink tea. I do not drink alcohol, ever, and that's just because that's how my body works. Uh, I'm a vegan. I don't really eat meat because I can't process it, and I've learnt that over the years. And so it has taken time to get to this place to where I know what is right for me. And I have good people around me, uh, who will listen to me when I say, "Actually, I think it's a good t- time to not do this today."

Jay Shetty 4:23 Mm.

Speaker 4:23 It's about really being practical about how you take care of yourself and what you put in your body and, and when you get rest. And I'm not always the best when it comes to rest. I have to

Speaker 4:34 focus when it comes to that. I actually have to concentrate on making sure I put rest in, but I try.

Jay Shetty 4:40 Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you. Are you good at slowing down?

Speaker 4:42 No, I'm terrible.

Jay Shetty 4:44 Mm.

Speaker 4:44 I'm really bad at slowing down. And, and, but I'm good when I am slow.

Jay Shetty 4:48 [laughs]

Speaker 4:48 You know what I mean? You know, sometimes people get really antsy about not going somewhere when they are still. I'm good at being still when I need to be still.

Jay Shetty 4:57 Yeah.

Speaker 4:57 You know?

Jay Shetty 4:58 Yeah.

Speaker 4:58 So once I get the chance to be still, I'm, I'm not going anywhere.

Jay Shetty 5:01 Yeah.

Speaker 5:02 Uh, but that's also taken time. You know, I haven't always been good at being in one place and okay with not going anywhere, but now I'm really good at it because I know how valuable it is for me.

Jay Shetty 5:13 Yeah. What got you there? Because you're so right. I think a lot of us-

Speaker 5:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 5:16 ... everyone will say, "It takes me three days to even-

Speaker 5:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 5:19 ... switch off."

Speaker 5:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 5:20 And by the time you switch off, you're like, your vacation's over.

Speaker 5:23 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 5:23 And now you're going back to work.

Speaker 5:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 5:24 Like, what was it that helped you get to that space of how you just so beautifully said, "You know what? I actually now, after some work, actually feel like I can be still, and I-

Speaker 5:33 Yeah

Jay Shetty 5:34 ... I can be present." Like, what, what was that that got you there?

Speaker 5:36 I felt like I was m- missing things. I think even in this last sort of year or two, I had to figure out how to be really, really present in what was going on and what's happening, and also whilst I was shooting, I was writing this album, so it meant that I, lots of thought was happening, lots of looking back on things and m- remembering. And you can't really do that if you aren't still sometimes. When you're sat in a, in a studio and you have to write, you can't go anywhere. And so learning that practice and doing that has really sort of shone a light on the ways in which IWasn't good at being still

Speaker 6:12 at times, and how I was missing certain things, not really being present in the moment and enjoying what was going on. Strange enough, doing all of those red carpets and things made me, forced me to sort of be present and be with whoever I was talking to at, at that moment. So I think what I wanted to do is lean into what that felt like, uh, for elongated periods of time. And for me right now, an elongated period of time could be anything from, like, one day to three days.

Jay Shetty 6:39 [laughs]

Speaker 6:39 Like, that's an elongated period of time for me. But, but it m- it means that when I do get those opportunities, I can actually be there.

Jay Shetty 6:46 Yeah.

Speaker 6:47 Like, and be okay with doing nothing.

Jay Shetty 6:50 Yeah.

Speaker 6:50 Because sometimes doing nothing is doing enough.

Jay Shetty 6:54 What you're saying is so true, that I feel like if you are where your feet are-

Speaker 6:57 Yeah

Jay Shetty 6:58 ... then you'll always be where your feet are.

Speaker 7:00 Right.

Jay Shetty 7:00 And so if you're on the red carpet, and that's where you are-

Speaker 7:03 Be there

Jay Shetty 7:04 ... then when you're off, that's where you are. And I think a lot of us, and, and I've struggled with this in the past, and, and got so much better with it, but when we're at work, we're thinking about the vacation.

Speaker 7:13 Right.

Jay Shetty 7:14 And therefore, when we're on the vacation, we're thinking about work.

Speaker 7:16 We're thinking about work.

Jay Shetty 7:16 Because that inattention bleeds.

Speaker 7:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 7:18 And you can't say, "I wanna be attentive on vacation-"

Speaker 7:22 Right

Jay Shetty 7:22 ... "and I wanna be inattentive at work," because-

Speaker 7:24 No

Jay Shetty 7:24 ... they both feed into each other. And I love hearing about the athlete in you, though. Like, even when you were talking about food and water.

Speaker 7:32 Yes.

Jay Shetty 7:32 And, and you are an athlete, and so-

Speaker 7:34 Yeah

Jay Shetty 7:34 ... are all of us, that demand a lot from our body.

Speaker 7:36 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 7:37 And I had this really interesting thing that happened to me this week, where I did not go to South Africa or London.

Speaker 7:42 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 7:42 But I did my mini version of what you do. But this week, I went to, I was in Palm Springs, Vegas, Boston, and New York, four days, four work events. I was only in a city for, if 12 hours.

Speaker 7:55 A few hours, yeah.

Jay Shetty 7:56 Yeah. And that's normal for me too, and so I was moving, and I got back at, like, 1:00 AM, or I got into bed at 1:00 AM on Monday morning.

Speaker 8:03 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 8:04 And I got up at 8:00 to work. Well, I got up a bit earlier, and then at 8:00 I was working out.

Speaker 8:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:08 And it was this really amazing feeling I had. I got in the gym.

Speaker 8:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:11 And I felt amazing after-

Speaker 8:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 8:12 ... doing it, and I was like, "Oh, wow." Like, all of this stuff works. Like, the vitamins-

Speaker 8:16 Yes

Jay Shetty 8:16 ... they work.

Speaker 8:17 It really does.

Jay Shetty 8:18 Like, it all works. Like, people do it for a reason.

Speaker 8:20 It's pattern as well.

Jay Shetty 8:21 It's pattern, yeah.

Speaker 8:22 So once you get your body into a, a... It's almost like

Speaker 8:25 ritual. Your body needs a particular kind of ritual to keep it going. Doesn't matter where you are in the world or what you do in the w- Like, as long as there, there are th- certain things that don't change, your body will thank you for it.

Jay Shetty 8:37 Mm.

Speaker 8:37 You know? It doesn't matter where I am in the world, I will always have my vitamins. Like, I have, like, packets-

Jay Shetty 8:41 Me too

Speaker 8:42 ... [laughs] I take around with me, right? And I always have my tea. So I bring tea with me wherever I go. It's the same tea, so I'm never sort of thinking, "Oh, I have to have this," or... No, that's the tea that I have. I like Ruffles chips, so I'll always take Ruffles chips with me wherever I go. That's my sort of, like, guilty pleasure. I'm gonna have that.

Jay Shetty 8:58 Yeah.

Speaker 8:59 But it means that, or there's a particular protein bar. So I'm not searching for something else that doesn't aid me, actually helps me. I will always know where the gym is, so I can actually go and do my long walk or my long run. That way, there are things that are already set in place that don't take up much room.

Jay Shetty 9:16 Mm.

Speaker 9:17 But they do serve a really great purpose. It means that I can show up and be ready wherever I am, and when I get back home, I can always slot back in. And, like, honestly, the jet lag should be crazy, but it is not.

Jay Shetty 9:31 Yeah.

Speaker 9:31 I woke up this morning at, like, 7:00. My, I have, like, a little one-person, um, infrared sauna, but I also take a, I bought an infrared sauna blanket, which I take with me wherever I go.

Jay Shetty 9:41 [laughs]

Speaker 9:42 'Cause it means that I can also heal from the inside out, and-

Jay Shetty 9:45 Mm

Speaker 9:45 ... the, the wonderful thing about that is that you can get, if I can't run, then I'll get in the sauna, or I'll do both. But those things don't change.

Jay Shetty 9:53 Mm.

Speaker 9:53 And so if you can keep healthy habits that keep you moving and working, and the s- your system is still alive and alert, then those things should stay.

Jay Shetty 10:04 Yeah.

Speaker 10:04 I think sometimes we underestimate what, what it is to form good habits.

Jay Shetty 10:09 Mm.

Speaker 10:09 Those things really help, and they've really helped me a lot.

Jay Shetty 10:13 Yeah, and they take a long time to form.

Speaker 10:15 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:16 But once you have them, then you, like, realize the value of them.

Speaker 10:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:19 And then you're like, "I don't even wanna miss them-"

Speaker 10:21 That's right

Jay Shetty 10:21 ... "even if I don't love doing them," or even if they're hard.

Speaker 10:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:25 You're like, "I know I'll feel better after it."

Speaker 10:27 That's right. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:27 Yeah, I love that. I heard somewhere you said that you've always been an overachiever.

Speaker 10:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:31 And I was trying to understand, like, what's the difference between achieving and overachieving?

Speaker 10:36 So I can, okay, make a song. Good. Do an album. Good. The standard album is usually maybe 10 to 13 songs. My album has 20 songs on it.

Jay Shetty 10:46 Yeah.

Speaker 10:47 Right? You can spend six months doing something. I'll probably spend a year doing it. Someone says, "Write a book," and you get someone to help you write the book. I'll go, "Actually, I would really like to write this myself." And this is not necessarily the healthiest.

Jay Shetty 11:01 [laughs]

Speaker 11:01 I preface it with that. For me, I think I, I'm always constantly pushing to do, what's the one thing further from, uh, the, the norm? Like, you've done something really amazing, but how can I be more than amazing? How can I push more? How can I do more? How much can I exert myself m- more to get more out of the thing that I'm doing? That, for me, is overachieving.

Jay Shetty 11:24 Mm.

Speaker 11:24 And that isn't always a healthy way to think, but for me, I think it's become a habit. And so I've had to find healthy ways of doing that.

Jay Shetty 11:36 Mm.

Speaker 11:37 So, like, if I am gonna do 20 songs, how am I going to make it easy for myself after that to let go of it for a second and take a break? Or if I am going to, I don't know, run three, like, for three hours, am I gonna feed myself to replenish myself the way I need to after running those three hours? It's the balance has to be

Speaker 12:00 addressed when, when you're doing something like that.

Jay Shetty 12:02 No, that makes a lot of sense. Where does that drive come from? Where's that ambition come from? Have you always had it since day one?

Speaker 12:08 I think I have always had it. I think it's first came-From my mom, 'cause I think she has that sort of drive and want to achieve. She, uh, she's ... I'm raised by a single mom, and she really, I'm not entirely sure how she managed to do all the things she was able to do. This is, you know, a woman who emigrated from Nigeria when she was in her 20s, got her degree in nursing, went from nursing to being a health visitor, which is a big massive jump, owns her own home, had her own car. But we're not middle class by any means. W- working class people who didn't have very much, but my mom was always pushing to make sure that she could have and that we could have. So I think I watched and witnessed her do that on her own, and so picked that, sort of those habits, those traits up. And then I think in my teenagehood, after experiencing some traumatic things, that sort of also became a driving force, too, which is not necessarily the best thing, 'cause it can't sustain. But it's sort of like, "I'll show everybody that I can do this."

Jay Shetty 13:14 Mm.

Speaker 13:14 And that sort of drove a lot of it, and then it didn't sustain. Then I was like, "Actually, I really wanna do this for myself, and I love what I'm doing. And if I'm gonna do something, I want to do it to the very best of my abilities." It stopped being about what I saw my mom do, which was wonderful, and stopped being about proving to people,

Speaker 13:34 and is now about like sort of like eking out the maximum amount of joy from something by doing the most I can do with it.

Jay Shetty 13:44 Mm.

Speaker 13:45 You know? By learning all of the details that I can about whatever it is I'm doing. How do I connect the most? And in connecting the most, it makes me be the best I, I can be.

Jay Shetty 13:58 Yeah.

Speaker 13:59 You know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 13:59 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm, I wanna talk about all those transitions, because they're so beautiful, and I literally was having this conversation with a friend the other day-

Speaker 14:07 Yeah

Jay Shetty 14:07 ... about my mom.

Speaker 14:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:08 And so my dad was less present.

Speaker 14:10 Yes.

Jay Shetty 14:10 It's not that he wasn't there, but he was less present when I was growing up.

Speaker 14:12 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:13 And so my mom was the breadwinner of the house.

Speaker 14:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:15 She made us breakfast in the morning.

Speaker 14:18 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 14:18 Dropped us to school, me and my sister, made us a packed lunch, went to work, picked us up from school-

Speaker 14:24 Yeah

Jay Shetty 14:25 ... came home, made us dinner-

Speaker 14:26 Right

Jay Shetty 14:27 ... went out again to work, and came home, and I still have no idea-

Speaker 14:31 I don't know how they do it

Jay Shetty 14:31 ... I have no idea how she did it. And we always had a fresh dinner every day-

Speaker 14:35 Yeah

Jay Shetty 14:35 ... a fresh lunch every day, a fresh breakfast, never had to eat leftovers.

Speaker 14:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:39 She always believed that a home-cooked meal was so important.

Speaker 14:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:42 And I look at my mom now, and I just think like, "How did you do it?" Like, and, and I completely agree with you. My work ethic, I think, comes from watching my mom.

Speaker 14:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:50 So I can relate to that.

Speaker 14:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:51 Where it's like, I saw my mom, after doing all of that, working in the evening.

Speaker 14:55 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:55 Because she had to.

Speaker 14:56 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:57 And I saw her, like, turning up when it was really, really hard.

Speaker 15:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:00 And it's amazing how that rubs off on you-

Speaker 15:02 Yeah

Jay Shetty 15:03 ... and, and how you mirror what you see at home.

Speaker 15:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:06 And again, like you said, it's not that it was the healthiest. She had to do it for survival.

Speaker 15:10 Right. That's right.

Jay Shetty 15:10 It wasn't a choice.

Speaker 15:10 It's not a choice, yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:11 Yeah, and so we are lucky that we have the ability to slow down or-

Speaker 15:15 Yes

Jay Shetty 15:15 ... have more resources or whatever it may be, but it is amazing how much our parents' work ethic-

Speaker 15:21 Like-

Jay Shetty 15:22 ... like rubs off on you

Speaker 15:23 ... rubs off on, yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:23 Yeah, it's pretty special.

Speaker 15:23 It's like it becomes part of the DNA without you even realizing that it's part of your DNA anymore, you know?

Jay Shetty 15:27 Yeah. What were some of those, if you're comfortable sharing, what were some of those teenage traumas that you went through?

Speaker 15:32 Oh, oh, no, I've spoken about it.

Jay Shetty 15:33 Yeah.

Speaker 15:33 Of- honestly, uh, when, when I was 16, m- my dad and I went through a royal separation. He no longer wanted to be a part of my life, and that was like a big turning point for me, because I had to figure out what that meant. And it, for a long time, that sort of fueled the way I would work. Because you end up working to prove to someone that you're worthy of being loved or worthy of being y- looked after or wanted, and that's, that was like a big moment for me in, in general. And I think that it's sort of like a formative years. I think I was 16 when it happened, so it really was a turning point and, and a seminal moment in my growth that it happened in. And it took time to get over the hill, over the hump of that, and forgive and let go and be able to do things, not for that purpose, but for me. Had to sort of really do some thinking and working to shift that habit, but I'm very glad I did, 'cause it was, it didn't, it doesn't sustain you. It can only last for so long, and it, and it means that the work you're doing, not on purpose, but it comes from the wrong place.

Jay Shetty 16:45 Mm.

Speaker 16:45 And for a while, it worked. But then it didn't, and when, when it doesn't, you have to figure out how to make it work from something else, and it feels a lot better to not be

Speaker 16:59 working from that place anymore. Maybe we're meant to be with someone for a season, and then we move on and find the person that we're meant to be with for life. I saw very clearly that we weren't growing together anymore and that we weren't right for one another anymore and that us being together would actually be to the detriment of the both of us. I've had to learn to be okay with the idea that if someone leaves, they are meant to. And if they're meant to come back, they will.

Jay Shetty 17:32 I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given, and Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get three times points on travel and dining and even access to one-of-a-kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by The Club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve, trust me. Discover more at chase.com/sapphirereserve.Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. There's a really beautiful system in, in Eastern philosophy that talks about how you can do anything from three different modes.

Speaker 18:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:29 So you have the mode of ignorance.

Speaker 18:30 Yes.

Jay Shetty 18:30 Which means

Jay Shetty 18:31 you're doing things out of fear and insecurity.

Speaker 18:33 Right.

Jay Shetty 18:33 So you're doing something because you're scared. You're doing something because ... It's not survival. It's l- it's even, like, more negatively motivated than that.

Speaker 18:42 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:43 Then the second is the mode of passion, which is what you're saying, which is, like, "I'm gonna prove someone wrong."

Speaker 18:47 Right.

Jay Shetty 18:47 "I'm gonna do it for a result."

Speaker 18:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:49 "I'm gonna do it because I wanna show people."

Speaker 18:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:51 "I wanna do it with that energy." And then finally, you come to love or, or duty or joy or bliss.

Speaker 18:57 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 18:57 And it's a ladder.

Speaker 18:59 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:59 And what I love about what you're saying is you've taken-

Speaker 19:01 The ladder, yeah

Jay Shetty 19:03 ... steps up the ladder.

Speaker 19:03 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 19:03 Because I think sometimes we make ourselves feel bad, like, "Oh, if I'm doing something to prove someone wrong, I shouldn't do it."

Speaker 19:08 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 19:09 Because that's a bad motive, and it's ... But it's like sometimes that's the only thing that-

Speaker 19:13 That's the only thing that can. If that's the only motive you know, what else are you supposed to do?

Jay Shetty 19:17 Yeah, you have to use it.

Speaker 19:17 If you ... You have to use it. And if you use it to make good work, then you use it to make good work. And I think what we wanna make sure of when we're doing that is that at some point we're okay to allow that to be what it was and to m- move on from it, you know?

Jay Shetty 19:35 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 19:35 'Cause if ... And, and everyone has their own time. I had it my time, and someone else will be still working in, from that mode, and if it's still working for them, it's still working for them. But at some point they will come to a realization that, "Ooh, I don't know if this works for me anymore, and it doesn't feel as good anymore." So when you ... And it's about noticing when it doesn't feel the way you want it to feel anymore. And so what am I now searching for? Am I searching for joy? Am I searching for bliss? Am I searching for contentment? And if that's the case, then it has to come from somewhere else.

Jay Shetty 20:05 Mm.

Speaker 20:05 And so you seek to work in a different way.

Jay Shetty 20:08 Yeah. How do you hold your hand with such grace? Like, when you talk about these things, it feels like you've, like, held your hand through it.

Speaker 20:14 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:14 Which is, like, a really beautiful visual to have. Because

Jay Shetty 20:17 I think what we're good at doing, a- as humans-

Speaker 20:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 20:19 ... is as soon as something doesn't serve us, we're like, "Oh, I've been getting it wrong for three years. Now I'm gonna get it right." And it's like, well, no.

Speaker 20:27 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:27 That served you.

Speaker 20:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:29 Like, even if it wasn't sustainable-

Speaker 20:31 Yeah

Jay Shetty 20:31 ... as you rightly said, it served you.

Speaker 20:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:33 And it was important, and it mattered.

Speaker 20:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:35 So I think if s- what I'm saying is if someone's listening right now, and they're like, "Cynthia, you know what? I've spent the last three years-"

Speaker 20:41 Yeah

Jay Shetty 20:41 "... trying to prove my parents wrong."

Speaker 20:42 Right.

Jay Shetty 20:43 "I've spent the last five years trying to prove my ex wrong."

Speaker 20:46 Right.

Jay Shetty 20:46 "I've spent the last seven years trying to prove my teachers wrong-"

Speaker 20:49 Right

Jay Shetty 20:50 "... at school," or whatever it may be.

Speaker 20:52 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:52 "But I know it's not sustainable." Like, I hear you.

Speaker 20:54 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 20:55 In that place. How would you encourage people to hold their hand through that transition into rising, but not-

Speaker 21:02 Yeah. Sometimes I get the question, what would you give your, what-

Jay Shetty 21:05 Advice

Speaker 21:05 ... advice would you give your younger self? Or what would you say to your younger self if you could meet her? Or is there anything you ... And then there's three different questions. But then the, the other question is, would you change anything if you could go back? My answer is always I would never change anything, because I think that every step we take, even the things that we think are wrong turns, are the teachers. They're the, they're the way we get to where we get to. You know what I mean? If I was to change something, I don't know that I would be s- sat here in front of you. I think some of what we might think of missteps were the steps I was supposed to take. So if you're at home and you're watching this and you're thinking, "Oh, my, but I've been doing this, and I know it's not sustainable, but I, but how do I move from that?" Well, you take your time. It will come. And if that's what's, um, feeding you right now, if that's the way, if that's the thing that gets you up out of bed and gets you energized to move forward, then keep using it. And when you realize, oh, actually, maybe today I'll do it from a place of I want to cheer someone up, that is as much of, that's love as well. So it's just taking small decision, changing your mind bit by bit. And don't be so hard on yourself because you've chosen other things to encourage yourself to move forward and to do well. If you haven't hurt anyone by using the, the pain that you've been through, by using the hurt that you've been through, by using the rejection that you've experienced, by using the shame that you've experienced, and you've managed to transmute all of that into energy that makes you create positive work, well, then you've done something really good. Because technically you've given all of those people, all those things energy in the most positive way. Now you get to find a way to give yourself positive energy. So I would say pat yourself on the back for managing to do that, because it takes a lot of time and energy to do that. And be easy. That change in the way you move forward will come, because you want it to come.

Jay Shetty 23:15 Mm.

Speaker 23:15 The fact that you even are thinking about trying to work in a different way means that you're putting the idea that you can work in a different way into the universe and telling yourself, "We can work in a different way." And one day you'll work in a different way.

Jay Shetty 23:31 Mm.

Speaker 23:31 Right now, what you're doing isn't hurting anyone. It costs you more than it costs anyone else, but you're also serving yourself the way you know how to, and then you'll find another way to serve yourself.

Jay Shetty 23:44 Mm.

Speaker 23:44 And other people.

Jay Shetty 23:46 It's, it's actually such a beautiful journey to take.

Speaker 23:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:48 When you, when you kind of, you know, you ... And when you're going through it, it always feels like the worst.

Speaker 23:52 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:52 Because when you're trying to prove someone wrong-

Speaker 23:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 23:55 ... you feel

Jay Shetty 23:56 controlled by them.

Speaker 23:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:57 You feel they still own-

Speaker 23:59 Own, yeah

Jay Shetty 23:59 ... your journey and you. And the moment you let go-

Speaker 24:03 Yeah

Jay Shetty 24:03 ... you recognize, oh, no, I-I'm taking back my control-

Speaker 24:07 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 24:07 ... and that I have ownership.

Speaker 24:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:09 And I think that's what we're all looking for in life. When you think about as humans, I was having a conversation this morning with one of my friends who's an incred- like, you know, one of the greatest therapists on the planet.

Speaker 24:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:20 And we're just having a, just having a friendly conversation, but we were saying, "I don't think humans even know what they want anymore."

Speaker 24:25 Right.

Jay Shetty 24:26 Like, we think we want happiness, but do we really?

Speaker 24:28 Really, yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:28 Like, is that what we're looking for?

Speaker 24:29 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:29 Or do we want validation?

Speaker 24:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:31 Or do we want approval, or do we want love? Like, what do we want? And I think as we're talking about it right now and thinking about it, what we really want is to feel agency-

Speaker 24:40 Yes

Jay Shetty 24:40 ... and autonomy-

Speaker 24:41 Over our lives, yeah

Jay Shetty 24:41 ... and control over our lives.

Speaker 24:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:43 And, and not feel like we're living for someone else, and not feel like we're trying to ... Because even if you're trying to prove someone wrong, you're still living for them.

Speaker 24:49 Right. That's right.

Jay Shetty 24:50 And I think we wanna feel like, no, I'm living for me.

Speaker 24:52 Yeah. I love the, the idea that we're sort of trying to figure out what we want. Do we want happiness? Do we want gonna ... But, but actually, the idea that we're s- simply seeking agency over our lives allows us to own all of those things. So yes, we do want happiness, but maybe it's contentment. But also, we wanna have agency over the sadness that we have, so it's not because of someone else, but we, we can allow ourselves to feel something, and then we can decide when we actually wanna damp down that feeling, let it go. We can let that sort of dissipate for ourselves, because we have the agency over it. We have the agency of, over what we choose to feel happy over. Or if we are feeling grief, then it's our grief, not someone else's grief, you know? That, I mean, takes time to realize.

Jay Shetty 25:35 [laughs]

Speaker 25:35 [laughs] But it, but it's that. That, I think, is the ultimate goal for most of us, to be able to decide, "No, actually, this is my life, and I'm choosing to f- feel and live this way for me first. And then I can use the energy that I am saving by having agency over my life for good that will serve other people as well."

Jay Shetty 25:58 Mm.

Speaker 25:58 That's, I think.

Jay Shetty 25:59 Yeah.

Speaker 25:59 Once we can be in, in true ownership of who we are and what we do for ourselves, there's more space for everyone else.

Jay Shetty 26:07 Yeah. Do you think that journey was harder for you? 'Cause you've talked about how, like, you always felt like you didn't fit in.

Speaker 26:11 Oh, yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:12 Like-

Speaker 26:12 I think I had to come to terms with the fact that I don't think I'm ever going to fit

Speaker 26:16 in, and why would I want to? But I think it was, when you're young, it doesn't feel as good, because you really do want to fit. You do want to be a part of something. But I think that as I've grown and as, as I've learnt, my difference and the not feeling like I fit in has actually really helped me become who I want to be. And I think if I was the same as everybody else, you wouldn't know me, you know? And I think my not fitting has forced me to get to know myself deeply and learn about who I am and what makes me tick, and to be honest about the things that sort of, like, trigger me or don't trigger me, or the things that make me tick and the things that make, that bring me joy and the things that, like, energize me. I was talking to someone yesterday, and I, I said to them, "I s- I can sometimes tell when I walk into a room when someone wants me there or not. And my tendency, a terrible tendency, is to sort of almost shut down immediately, because I wanna be in a room where someone wants me to be in the room with them. I wanna be able to share that. And why don't we s- maybe shift that and change that, and maybe you walk in with the energy of openness and see if you can shift the energy in the room."

Jay Shetty 27:30 [laughs]

Speaker 27:31 "Maybe don't expect the energy when you walk in. Maybe, maybe try and change that energy when you get there." And I ha- hadn't thought of that before, and I thought, like, that's something that I maybe 10 years ago wouldn't have been open to hearing. 'Cause your, the automatic is, "Well, if they don't want me here, what's, why don't they want me here? What's wrong? Have I done something wrong?" As opposed to, maybe they've just had a bad day. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 27:52 [laughs]

Speaker 27:52 Maybe they woke up on the s- wrong side of the, the bed, and they just don't have the energy right now, so maybe you feed the energy into the room, and maybe that might shift things. And I think because I've started to learn, and I've been in possession of the knowledge that my difference isn't something that separates but can connect-

Jay Shetty 28:15 Wow

Speaker 28:15 ... maybe it means that using that difference in places allows the space to open up a little bit more, you know?

Jay Shetty 28:21 I love that. That's such a cool idea.

Speaker 28:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 28:24 And, and I couldn't agree with it more. It's so import- I think we do live in a world right now that's always like, "Well, they don't want me there," or, "They don't like me."

Speaker 28:32 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 28:32 And, and we're almost just giving away our agency.

Speaker 28:35 Right. Right, right, right.

Jay Shetty 28:36 Because what you just said, that statement is claiming back our agency and saying-

Speaker 28:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 28:40 ... "Well, yeah, they may not want me there, but I wanna be there."

Speaker 28:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 28:42 "And I'm gonna walk in as if I belong."

Speaker 28:45 Yeah. Yeah. I didn't walk in thinking I don't want them there, so maybe if-

Jay Shetty 28:48 [laughs]

Speaker 28:48 ... if I let them know I want you here-

Jay Shetty 28:50 Yeah

Speaker 28:50 ... they'll go, "I'm wanted." So well, maybe we can share that space, you know?

Jay Shetty 28:54 Yeah.

Speaker 28:55 It, it, there's ways to, to shift the conversation, shift the energy wherever you are. And, and I think us as human beings, sometimes we, we put it on the other person to do that, when actually, if you're confident enough about what you bring, you can actually shift and share yourself.

Jay Shetty 29:13 I've seen that so many times. It just, well, and I see it when I'm on the road.

Speaker 29:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:17 I see it through, I was, uh, speaking at an event on Sunday.

Speaker 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 29:22 And

Jay Shetty 29:23 they had, like, um, what is it like when you're on set and there's food for everyone? Like, it's this-

Speaker 29:27 Oh, like a sharing table, like a round table where there's a sharing, yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:29 Yeah, like just like that kind of thing.

Speaker 29:30 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:30 It was, like, for all the, it was for the helpers, the volunteers-

Speaker 29:33 Oh, yeah

Jay Shetty 29:33 ... the speakers.

Speaker 29:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:33 Like, everyone to just take food.

Speaker 29:34 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:35 And there was this lady there, and I mentioned to her that I was plant-based.

Speaker 29:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:38 And I was like, "Could you just walk me through the options?"

Speaker 29:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:41 She did it with so much enthusiasm.

Speaker 29:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:43 Like, I asked her just a really basic question.

Speaker 29:45 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:45 I was, I was nice, but I wasn't ... I was just like, "Hey, how are you?" I was like, "Hey, how's it going?" Like, "I'm plant-based. Could you help me out?"

Speaker 29:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:51 And I was fine. Like, my energy was okay.

Speaker 29:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:53 Like, maybe my energy was a 5.

Speaker 29:54 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:55 Like, I was neutral. It wasn't positive, and it wasn't negative.

Speaker 29:57 Yeah. Yeah, just easy.

Jay Shetty 29:57 It was just easy.

Speaker 29:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:59 And she just responded-

Speaker 30:00 Yeah, with such joy

Jay Shetty 30:02 ... with, like, she was like a mom.

Speaker 30:03 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:03 Like, I felt like she had that motherly energy of like, "What do you want?" Like, "This is plant-based, and this."

Speaker 30:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:07 And, "Can I get you a drink? Can I..."

Speaker 30:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:09 And I, and I said to her, I was with a colleague, and I just said, I was like, "That is, like, the energy-

Speaker 30:13 Yeah

Jay Shetty 30:14 ... of just life."

Speaker 30:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:15 And it's not, her job was not easy.

Speaker 30:17 No.

Jay Shetty 30:17 She wasn't doing something that was physically easy.

Speaker 30:19 No.

Jay Shetty 30:19 She wasn't doing something where it's probably a thankless task. Like-But she was so passionate about it. And I was, and I said to her, I was like, "I hope you just know, like, you made my day." And it was, it's always people like that that you just kinda bump into.

Speaker 30:30 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:31 And, and I was like, we've gotta become better as humans at noticing it-

Speaker 30:35 Yes

Jay Shetty 30:36 ... and telling them that.

Speaker 30:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:38 Because we would notice it if they weren't like that.

Speaker 30:40 Yes.

Jay Shetty 30:41 So if she had responded to me and been like, "Oh, yeah, it's over there"-

Speaker 30:43 Yeah. Then you would notice it

Jay Shetty 30:44 ... I would've been, I would've been in a strop, right?

Speaker 30:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:45 You'd, yeah, I'd be like... I probably wouldn't, but I know a few years ago-

Speaker 30:49 But you, it's the thing that you would like, it would, you take it with you, you know?

Jay Shetty 30:52 Yeah, you take it with you.

Speaker 30:52 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:52 And you're like, "Oh, God, why are they so like... What's wrong with..." Right?

Speaker 30:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:54 And we all carry that. But when someone does something amazing, you kinda take it for granted and you go, "Oh, yeah, of course, they're just being nice."

Speaker 31:01 The thing is, I think we sometimes take for granted that that kind of energy is, uh, infectious.

Jay Shetty 31:05 It is.

Speaker 31:06 Truly.

Jay Shetty 31:06 Yeah.

Speaker 31:07 You know? It, it's the simple sort of act of smiling at someone in the street, right? That smile will pass on. It'll go from one person to another person to another person, 'cause you don't know who you're smiling at. And if that pers- If you're smiling at someone who's had a bit of a rough day, and they go, "Oh, someone's noticed me and they smiled at me," well, you'll remember that person smiled at me, and then you might smile. And that smile might pass on to someone else, and you don't know who you're smiling at, how far that smile goes. And what we are n- not very good at is telling other people, "Hey, this person smiled at me in, in the street, and it was really sweet, and I don't know who they were, but it was really lovely." Because that energy is also infectious.

Jay Shetty 31:41 Yes.

Speaker 31:41 What we normally do is, "That, she, like, she bumped into me and I don't know why, but, like, she," or, "He said that, and it wasn't really nice." That, we pa- we pass that energy on. Instead of the energy that brightens. We are better at sort of sharing the energy that doesn't. And as humans who have to share a planet, we should probably get better at sharing what's bright.

Jay Shetty 32:07 Yeah.

Speaker 32:07 'Cause, yes, we, we're not always gonna go through great times, but it's the little things that can move us from a place of darkness to a place of light.

Jay Shetty 32:18 Yeah, I love that. Have you e- have you heard of something called the frequency illusion?

Speaker 32:21 Mm-mm.

Jay Shetty 32:22 So the frequency illusion is this idea, it's the idea of, like, if I'm thinking about buying a red car-

Speaker 32:28 Yes

Jay Shetty 32:29 ... I now see red cars everywhere.

Speaker 32:30 You see red cars everywhere, yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:31 Or, like, if I learned a new word-

Speaker 32:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 32:33 ... and now I hear everyone saying that word.

Speaker 32:35 Yes. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 32:35 Or whatever it may be. And so the frequency illusion is when you start to notice something-

Speaker 32:39 Yeah

Jay Shetty 32:40 ... you start to notice it more.

Speaker 32:41 Yes.

Jay Shetty 32:42 And we think that the world suddenly has more red cars-

Speaker 32:45 Right

Jay Shetty 32:45 ... or the world suddenly is more intellectual because they're using this word. The truth is the world hasn't changed.

Speaker 32:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:50 You just notice it more.

Speaker 32:51 That's right.

Jay Shetty 32:52 And the brain is wired to do that. And what you just pointed out is that, that it's not about, this isn't positive thinking, and this is not, like, toxic positivity.

Speaker 33:00 No.

Jay Shetty 33:00 What it is, is whatever I notice-

Speaker 33:02 Yes

Jay Shetty 33:03 ... I'm gonna notice more of it.

Speaker 33:04 Right.

Jay Shetty 33:04 So if I only notice when people frown and people kind of, you know, push me aside-

Speaker 33:09 Yes, yeah

Jay Shetty 33:09 ... or people don't open the door, I'm gonna notice that more and more and more.

Speaker 33:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:13 But if I notice the smile on the street-

Speaker 33:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:15 ... if I notice the nice gesture from the lunch lady-

Speaker 33:18 Right

Jay Shetty 33:18 ... if I notice that, then all of a sudden, that's how I start to see things.

Speaker 33:21 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:21 And it's not faking it. It's not like pretending that the world's all roses and rainbows-

Speaker 33:26 No

Jay Shetty 33:26 ... and all that kind of stuff. But it's the idea that our brain is just wired to notice.

Speaker 33:30 Yes.

Jay Shetty 33:31 And whatever you notice, you'll see more of.

Speaker 33:32 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:33 I wanna talk about your new album.

Speaker 33:34 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:34 There's no mask, there's no veil. It's this true, transparent-

Speaker 33:38 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:38 ... you know, communication. The first time I listened to it, 'cause I was lucky enough to get an early one for this-

Speaker 33:44 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:44 ... I had my eyes closed the whole time.

Speaker 33:47 Mm.

Jay Shetty 33:48 And I just sat and I listened to it in order-

Speaker 33:51 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:51 ... as it was. I didn't skip.

Speaker 33:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:53 I didn't need to.

Speaker 33:54 [laughs] Thank you.

Jay Shetty 33:56 And it really was just this, it really felt like a divine experience. Like, it was very-

Speaker 34:01 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 34:01 I like music, and I love music, but it was very different. And it was different because it felt familiar-

Speaker 34:06 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:07 ... to my soul.

Speaker 34:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 34:08 And, and that's why when I was messaging you about it last night before you were coming, I was like, it was divine, it was transcendent. Because it, it was. It just, it felt otherworldly-

Speaker 34:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:17 ... in the experience, but then felt really familiar and human.

Speaker 34:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 34:21 And I've got so many questions about it, but I wanna let y- you felt, I felt like there was something you were gonna-

Speaker 34:26 Oh, no. I mean-

Jay Shetty 34:26 ... say after that that I wanna let you finish.

Speaker 34:27 Yeah, I think I knew when I was going into it that I, I wanted to make something that felt like connective tissue to who I was. And part of me was deeply petrified to write this album, just because I knew it was going to be so transparent and really human in the subjects, and just extremely truthful, but I didn't really know how else to write it.

Jay Shetty 34:51 Mm.

Speaker 34:53 So I just sort of had to let go and just write. And I think the otherworldliness may be in the com- composition of things, but even that was a really human experience.

Jay Shetty 35:04 Mm.

Speaker 35:04 It wasn't, I didn't make any vocal arrangements. There were no written, there's no written music. I would do it as I was going along, and I would know what I wanted, and then I would sort of start with a vocal pad, and I would start with a line, and that line would, I'd repeat the line, and we'd create a stack. And then over that stack, I would just create another line. And there was no leaving the booth to write what the next line was. I would sort, as a line happened, I would think of another line, and sometimes I would distract myself because the line was creating itself as I was singing the line before. And that would go on and go on and go on until there was nothing left. So for me, it really was an experience of pouring all of myself into it every single time. And I would say to my producer and, Will, who's also the engineer on it and was co-writing with me, that it was always, it always felt really emotional when I would do the vocal pads. It was, I always felt deeply connected to the music because it was the rawest form of vocalizing and making music that I could think of without any real nes- structure necessarily. I just knew the emotion that I wanted, and that's what I would then write over. A lot of these songs just started with a vocal pad and a melody. That's what would happen. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:30 Wow. Has that always been your process, or was that a new discovery?

Speaker 36:34 I think I've always wanted it to be my process, but I don't think until now I've been brave enough to do it that way. I've never done it like this before, and it felt so easy to do. It felt like a, a real natural way of exercising the music that I, that I had in myself. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:50 And what did you want people to feel throughout it? What was... You were telling me earlier about how every song, even the order and the arc-

Speaker 36:57 Yeah

Jay Shetty 36:57 ... was structured.

Speaker 36:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:58 What, what was the kind of the emotional journey you wanted people to go on?

Speaker 37:02 At the beginning, it's, it, it really is about heartbreak and love and loss. But it's also, in a way, about me breaking someone's heart or what we put on ourselves as people in relationship, the responsibility we put on ourselves sometimes when we're in relationship, but when it's not, doesn't feel right, when it's not right, and we, we find it hard to, to disconnect from those relationships, and we find it hard to speak about what we're actually feeling when we're in them. And I think I wanted people to be okay with admitting when they're in the wrong space, when it isn't right anymore, when you have to go. And also that base feeling of it's your fault as well, [laughs] you know? 'Cause sometimes we, we feel

Speaker 37:50 a lot of guilt for saying that, but because there... Our relationships are made of two, three, however many people are in your relationship, but it's never j- it's not o- one-sided. Relationships are made of the people that are in them, and what happens within those relationships are made of the people within them, even when you don't think they are. If you dig deep enough, you'll find that you both have responsibility in there. And so I think there was sort of like the assuming of responsibility and a- also the, the willingness to be like also your responsibility is this too. This is how I felt, felt, but also I understand that I made you feel that way. And then I wanted people to know that, that it's, in that next section, there's the discovery of something new, something passionate within yourself and with another person and how human that is. 'Cause sometimes we get very ashamed of talking about passion and desire, and I wanted to talk about that. And I think passion and desire aren't necessarily things that people associate me with, but they are also very human experiences which I have experienced as someone who's, you know, i- in her late 30s, [laughs] you know? I think it's important for people to know that that is a part of me. And that third section is about when your feet touch the ground, after all the desire and the passion and the headiness of what that can be, that when your feet touch the ground, you fall in love for real.

Jay Shetty 39:21 Mm.

Speaker 39:21 That it isn't just about the other person, but it really is with you as well, to fall in love again with who you are, that sometimes within our relationships we can lose ourselves a little bit. But then eventually, if you want, you can come back to yourself.

Jay Shetty 39:38 Mm.

Speaker 39:39 And that fourth

Speaker 39:40 section is about forgiveness, which is what this album is called.

Jay Shetty 39:45 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 39:45 It is about forgiving the person that you were with, the person that you were, and the person you may have become because of it, forgiving the mistakes that you might have made because they lead to this place. And I guess in the grand scheme of things, it is really about forgiving yourself-

Jay Shetty 40:08 Mm

Speaker 40:08 ... and allowing the fact that your human experiences are just that, the experiences we have as human beings that, that usher us through our lives. The things I've been through have made me r- really sort of like look back on how I've dealt with certain situations, and sometimes I've not necessarily been my best self, but that doesn't mean that I'm not a good human being.

Jay Shetty 40:35 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 40:36 And I think sometimes we mistake not being our best selves with being a bad human being, and I think sometimes we have to say that that's not the same thing.

Jay Shetty 40:46 Mm.

Speaker 40:47 And that we can forgive ourselves for not being our best selves because we want to be good human beings.

Jay Shetty 40:53 Even just listening to you explain that-

Speaker 40:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 40:56 ... I mean, I had so many thoughts that went through my mind. I was just thinking about how it's so common for us to start hating ourselves-

Speaker 41:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 41:04 ... and being harsh on ourselves-

Speaker 41:05 Yeah

Jay Shetty 41:06 ... when the situation's so complex.

Speaker 41:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:10 But almost our simple answer is, "I'm the problem."

Speaker 41:12 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:13 It's like if someone breaks up with us, we think, "I'm the problem."

Speaker 41:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:17 "I'm the weak one."

Speaker 41:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:19 "It's over."

Speaker 41:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:20 If we choose to end something-

Speaker 41:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 41:23 ... we still blame ourselves.

Speaker 41:24 Yeah, that's right.

Jay Shetty 41:25 If, if you're someone who's self-reflective enough-

Speaker 41:27 Yeah

Jay Shetty 41:27 ... you still blame yourself-

Speaker 41:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 41:28 ... and you go, "Well, I messed up."

Speaker 41:30 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:30 "I don't deserve love."

Speaker 41:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:32 "Maybe I'll never get it."

Speaker 41:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:34 And I had a message recently from a friend who was going through a breakup, and they were just like, "I'm breaking up because I don't think this helps me grow anymore."

Speaker 41:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:43 "It's not even like there's anything wrong with it."

Speaker 41:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:45 "It's just like it's not right for me anymore."

Speaker 41:47 It's not right, yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:47 But they were like, "I'm just feeling guilty."

Speaker 41:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:49 And they're like, "I also feel guilty 'cause obviously the other person feels bad-"

Speaker 41:51 Yeah

Jay Shetty 41:51 "... and I can't even give them a real answer for it."

Speaker 41:53 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 41:54 "Because there isn't. It's just a feeling." And I... And it is so interesting how forgiveness is such the topic. I'm thinking about our audience right now. One thing I've been trying to ask people to help people is, have you ever been heartbroken?

Speaker 42:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:08 And what was the process, or what was the one thing that helped you live through that? Because I think so many of our audience are in that position-

Speaker 42:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:19 ... and they come to me for that a lot. What was helpful to you?

Speaker 42:23 I have definitely been heartbroken in separate occasions.

Jay Shetty 42:27 Mm.

Speaker 42:27 And because I, this happened at different parts of my life-

Jay Shetty 42:30 Mm-hmm

Speaker 42:30 ... I, I reacted in different ways. Earlier on, um, I really neededMy friends. I really needed people around me to just surround me with love. And for me, music is, has always been the, the balm. So I would listen, and I would sort of, like, try to feed myself with the things that w- would give me good energy. And for me, that sometimes is, like, running, working out, and eating good food, speaking to good people, having good experiences, creating newer memories on my own. And, and that really was the thing that would help me with heartbreak, but also, like, dealing with the fact that I felt heartbroken, and admitting, "Oh, I f- this broke my heart." And then, l- uh, later on, it really was about, I love a conversation. I like real closure, so I wanna have, like, an actual real conversation, and I've always, not necessarily always, but I tried to in most of the relationships that have, that have ended, and it's not me ending them, have given an opportunity for conversation, like, to talk about it. And I've tried to be as honest, and I've asked the person to be honest about what it is that has happened. Whether or not that's taken, not always, and then sometimes it's taken sort of later on. Fine. But it's really, I think if you can have your conversation-

Jay Shetty 43:57 Mm

Speaker 43:57 ... have the conversation and, and try to end it as ap- amicably as you possibly can. And if you can't, then, I know this sounds really strange, but have the conversation, but just not with that person. Like, what would that conversation in your head be? How would you have had that conversation? What would you have said if you had the opportunity s- to sit in front of someone, say, "Hey, this really hurt my feelings, and this is, this is where I am with this right now, and I'm really finding it hard to deal with," or, "My heart's broken, and I need it to heal." And have those conversations. Write those feelings down. The one thing you cannot do is keep a hold of that and swallow the feeling and never let it out, because I think it, it grows. It becomes something else. A heartbreak that isn't shared, heartbreak that isn't exorcized, I think, becomes resentment and becomes sour. You know? 'Cause heartbreak's a real emotion. It's actually, it's actually strangely quite a, a lovely, beautiful emotion. It means you're alive. If you have a heart to break, it means your heart is beating. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 45:02 Mm.

Speaker 45:03 So it's not a bad emotion. However, if you harbor it and never let it go and never share it, just like you share love, just like you share happiness, and you share joy, then it becomes something else. We don't, uh, keep joy to ourselves. We can't. It's impossible to. It sort of comes out of us whether we like it or not. We don't

Speaker 45:24 keep love to ourself. We want to give out love. We want to share love, because that only multiplies. If we keep heartbreak to ourself, it becomes something else. It mutates, metastasizes, and it, it sticks to us. And what that does is stops us from being able to... If you don't mend your heart, it can't be whole again for something else, and I'm assuming that anyone who has their heart broken wants their heart to be whole again so that they can share their heart-

Jay Shetty 45:54 Mm

Speaker 45:54 ... with someone else again.

Jay Shetty 45:55 Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 45:57 Right?

Jay Shetty 45:58 I love that. That really resonated, that idea of how emotions are not meant to be held onto.

Speaker 46:04 Right.

Jay Shetty 46:05 And the sad and the tough ones are the only ones that we-

Speaker 46:07 That we do, that we hold

Jay Shetty 46:08 ... hold onto tightly.

Speaker 46:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:10 And if there was someone who was feeling like, "Oh my God, there's only this much joy in the world, I'm gonna hold onto it," which we do sometimes as well.

Speaker 46:16 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:17 We're like, "Oh, no, no, I'm, I'm gonna be really scarce about joy."

Speaker 46:19 Right.

Jay Shetty 46:20 We know that doesn't work either.

Speaker 46:21 Doesn't work, yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:22 Because it disappears.

Speaker 46:23 Right.

Jay Shetty 46:23 It goes away.

Speaker 46:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:25 And yeah, it's so interesting, that idea of why we hold on to the hard emotions-

Speaker 46:29 Right

Jay Shetty 46:30 ... and don't hold on to the beautiful ones.

Speaker 46:32 Right.

Jay Shetty 46:32 And it, it limits us, and it's... When I'm thinking about your album and that idea of what you just said, of recognizing that we can forgive ourselves for ways in which-

Speaker 46:44 Yeah

Jay Shetty 46:44 ... we wanna be better.

Speaker 46:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:46 But that doesn't make us a bad person.

Speaker 46:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:49 I think you're so right that as humans, we've got good at making it this binary, black and white-

Speaker 46:56 Yeah

Jay Shetty 46:56 ... choice.

Speaker 46:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:57 Of I'm either a good person-

Speaker 46:58 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 46:59 ... or I'm a bad person.

Speaker 47:00 Right.

Jay Shetty 47:01 And actually, I've seen people with good intentions-

Speaker 47:03 Yeah

Jay Shetty 47:04 ... do more bad-

Speaker 47:05 Right

Jay Shetty 47:06 ... because they're trying so hard-

Speaker 47:07 To be good people

Jay Shetty 47:08 ... to be a good person.

Speaker 47:09 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:10 Rather than taking that, like, I remember a guy that I was mentoring a, a while ago. He was saying, like, "Oh, I don't wanna break up with her, because it will hurt her." And I was like, "But you're hurting yourself, and you're hurting her for longer b- because you don't wanna be seen as a bad person."

Speaker 47:26 Right.

Jay Shetty 47:26 So you'd rather be seen as a good guy-

Speaker 47:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 47:29 ... hurt her long term, and hurt yourself.

Speaker 47:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:32 And by the way, we all go through this.

Speaker 47:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:33 Because you don't wanna let people down.

Speaker 47:35 Down.

Jay Shetty 47:35 And so it's like, how, how did you reconcile those two things? Because I think it's a very human thing-

Speaker 47:40 Yeah

Jay Shetty 47:40 ... to, like, we don't wanna let people down.

Speaker 47:41 No.

Jay Shetty 47:42 We want people to be happy.

Speaker 47:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:43 We don't wanna break someone's heart, but the reality is that is how the way things go.

Speaker 47:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:49 Right?

Speaker 47:49 I think in the long term, so w- when I, when I had broken up with someone, when it was my choice

Speaker 47:55 to break up with someone, I saw very clearly that we weren't growing together anymore, and that we weren't right for one another anymore, and that us being together would actually be to the detriment of the both of us. If I'm in something that I'm, uh, that I'm miserable in, that I'm not happy in, then the likelihood is that is going to grow within the relationship, that I'm going to continue to be miserable, and that person is also going to experience the most miserable version of myself.And that isn't good for anyone, because I, I'm not fertile ground for happiness if I'm doing that, which means it removes the ability for the other person also to be in a relationship that's happy. And I would rather remove myself from the situation so that they can go on and find whoever it is that they're meant to be with. Because we a- we will find the people that we're meant to be with, and maybe we're meant to be with someone for a season, and then we move on and find the person that we're meant to be with for life. Or, or maybe we're meant to be with several people for a season, and that's what we're meant to do, or we're meant to learn from the people that we're with to become the people that we're supposed to be before we end up in the relationship we're supposed to end up in. And I just knew that I couldn't continue to pretend to be something I wasn't within a relationship that wasn't, it wasn't feeding me in the way I needed it to. And because of that, I knew it wasn't gonna be feeding the, the other person.

Jay Shetty 49:30 Yeah, that resonates so strongly as well.

Speaker 49:31 It's really hard, though.

Jay Shetty 49:32 It is. It is.

Speaker 49:33 You feel like such a letdown for doing it. You feel, I hate to use this word, but you feel like a villain for doing it, for hurting someone. But some- sometimes, and this may be a hard thing to say, but sometimes hurting someone actually aids the growth of another person. We, when we experience hurt, we are forced to grow. Again, it is another human emotion that we have to experience as we grow because it teaches us about what we are, how to react or how to soothe, how to use the hurt to turn it into something else, right? We're all gonna be hurt at some point in our lives. That is not something that we can prevent. We're all going to hurt someone in our lives. That's also something we cannot prevent. We are also always going to, we are all going to be hurt ourselves in general. It's not gonna s- that's something we can't prevent, and it's not something we run headlong into, but when it presents itself, we also have to be brave enough to be the people that either experience it or serve it. Not vindictively, not because we want to, but because it's sometimes necessary to begin again.

Jay Shetty 50:47 Yeah, I love what you just said there, that sometimes-

Speaker 50:49 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 50:50 ... we hurt people.

Speaker 50:52 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 50:53 And sometimes people hurt us.

Speaker 50:54 Us, yeah.

Jay Shetty 50:55 And then sometimes we hurt ourselves.

Speaker 50:57 Yes.

Jay Shetty 50:58 And all of that

Jay Shetty 51:00 you can't prevent.

Speaker 51:01 Correct.

Jay Shetty 51:02 That's gonna happen in the natural flow of life.

Speaker 51:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:04 And all we can learn to do is those people that we hurt-

Speaker 51:08 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:09 ... try to help-

Speaker 51:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:10 ... in the best way possible.

Speaker 51:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:12 And recognize that, like I'm thinking about it as you're talking about it, whenever I've, if I've broken up with someone-

Speaker 51:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:18 ... there's no part of me that was excited about it-

Speaker 51:20 No

Jay Shetty 51:20 ... or happy about it-

Speaker 51:21 No

Jay Shetty 51:21 ... or felt good about it. Not only because I believe I'm a good person and want to be-

Speaker 51:27 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:27 ... a good person, but because I don't like causing anyone pain.

Speaker 51:30 Pain, right.

Jay Shetty 51:31 But it made me, what it changed in me was it made me more responsible in the future-

Speaker 51:37 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:37 ... of how I was with someone-

Speaker 51:39 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:39 ... and how I conducted myself and thought about a relationship.

Speaker 51:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:42 When I was a teenager, probably fell too quick.

Speaker 51:45 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 51:45 Probably like, you know, was-

Speaker 51:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:46 ... all in, like didn't really recognize what that was. And as I grew up, it was like, "No, okay, now I understand. I need to slow things down."

Speaker 51:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:54 Like, one of the things I say to s- so many people is, "Don't fall in love too fast."

Speaker 51:59 Right.

Jay Shetty 52:00 Because when you fall in love too fast, that's when love is blind.

Speaker 52:03 Right.

Jay Shetty 52:04 That's when you fall.

Speaker 52:05 You haven't learnt the person yet.

Jay Shetty 52:06 And you haven't really understood. Like, you understand their, you understand what they like-

Speaker 52:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 52:12 ... but you don't really know anything about them beyond that.

Speaker 52:14 Right, right, right.

Jay Shetty 52:14 You, you understand very little information about them.

Speaker 52:17 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 52:17 But it's such a hard process to forgive ourselves for breaking someone's heart and to forgive ourselves-

Speaker 52:23 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 52:23 ... for when someone breaks our heart.

Speaker 52:25 Right.

Jay Shetty 52:25 'Cause if someone breaks up with you-

Speaker 52:26 Why didn't I see? How comes I didn't know? All of those things.

Jay Shetty 52:29 All of those things.

Speaker 52:30 You, sometimes you won't see. And also, sometimes it's nothing to do with you. [laughs] Sometimes it's not you. It's that the other person needs something else, and that's okay. And sometimes i- it might be the other way around. Sometimes it isn't them. You need something else.

Jay Shetty 52:44 That, that's actually it.

Speaker 52:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 52:46 That's it.

Speaker 52:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 52:46 Like that, that, what you just said there, that is actually what it is, that when you're breaking up with them-

Speaker 52:52 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 52:52 ... it's actually all to do with you.

Speaker 52:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 52:54 And when they broke up with you, it was all to do with them.

Speaker 52:56 It's all to do with them, yeah.

Jay Shetty 52:57 And the problem is, in both those situations, we make it all about us.

Speaker 53:00 Right.

Jay Shetty 53:00 It's our fault. We messed up.

Speaker 53:02 Right, right, right.

Jay Shetty 53:03 You know, or we blame it on them as well. Yeah, no, it's fascinating. There was a couple of lyrics from the album that I-

Speaker 53:08 Yes

Jay Shetty 53:08 ... I just, I had to talk about. So this is from the song that's already out, Replay.

Speaker 53:12 Yes.

Jay Shetty 53:13 Uh, and I'm gonna, I should let you do this-

Speaker 53:15 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 53:15 ... but I'll, I'll do it anyway to, to remind you. "I'm the best overachiever, there's not anyone like me. And you'd think that was a good thing, till you're told that's not healthy."

Speaker 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 53:26 "You spend every waking hour working hard to write your will. Patiently waiting for validation till you're empty and unfulfilled."

Speaker 53:33 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 53:33 So powerful.

Speaker 53:34 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 53:34 I love it. It's, even just reading it, it's like.

Speaker 53:36 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 53:36 And then getting to hear you sing it. The, the part that I was really, that really stood out to me-

Speaker 53:40 Mm

Jay Shetty 53:40 ... because I think so many people struggle with it today, is this waiting for validation.

Speaker 53:44 Wait, yeah.

Jay Shetty 53:45 There's such a-

Speaker 53:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 53:46 ... we all want to be validated.

Speaker 53:48 Yes.

Jay Shetty 53:49 I've been thinking about this a lot.

Speaker 53:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 53:51 What is the right type of validation to crave, and what's the unhealthy validation to crave?

Speaker 53:57 I, I don't even know because I, I think s- all of it is healthy and all of it is unhealthy, to be honest. Because the only real validation that m- matters is what you feel about yourself on the inside once it's, once you've done something. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, because you're never really going to please-Everybody. Everyone is seeing you objectively. They are, they have their own idea of who you are, and what you've been through, and the type of human being you are, and the type of experiences you have. They, they haven't lived your experience, so all they have is what you tell them, right? All they have is what they, what they see of you. And so as wonderful as it is when people are lovely, and they say complimentary things, and they, you know, love my music or ... There's also the other side that isn't that, and that doesn't, and isn't kind. And, and so if we don't take them in equal measure, then we're suggesting that one is more important than the other. But both come from people who are experiencing you in the exact same way, right?

Jay Shetty 54:57 Mm.

Speaker 54:57 So why wouldn't you take the bad and the good f- in equal measure? But it doesn't feel good to take the bad in equal measure as the good, right?

Jay Shetty 55:05 [laughs] Yeah.

Speaker 55:07 It, so we, we make this more important than this. So I, I honestly think that I spent a lot of my life trying to do things ... Like, you know, I was talking about my, my dad and what that felt like, a- and

Speaker 55:23 I was trying to prove to him that I was lovable. And, you know, in the beginning of this, I was, I would do my work, and, and I'd want, you know, whether it be social media, or whether it be reviews, and you want the good reviews, and you want people to say really nice things. You want people who you've never met to love you, and that is the driving force be- behind the work. And in the end, it doesn't serve you at all. It's wonderful. It's lovely to hear it, but if you don't feel that way about yourself, if you don't believe in the work you're doing, if you don't love the skin that you're in, the work that comes from you, the things that you get to say, the, the people you get to meet. If you don't love that work, none of the comments, none of the lovely compliments, none of the m- making someone finally fall in love with you matters. What it does is come to an empty shell. You have to learn how to fill up yourself because that's what fills you. That's what feels actually good. That's what actually feels good. Like, what is, what does this work, how does this work serve you in your life? Or does it serve other people? It, and I al- I also think that in doing of work, sometimes we think that it's only ... It is about us, but it's a cyclical thing, I think. If you can do the best you can do in your work, if you can really pour yourself into the work in the right way, that feels authentic to who you are, then you can actually serve that work to other people.

Jay Shetty 56:57 Yes.

Speaker 56:57 That you can actually be of service to other people. And I really, I talk about this when it comes to m- music, and when it comes to teaching, when it comes to singing. It's less about me getting a lo- big applause at the end of a song. That is lovely, but that couldn't matter l- less than actually looking at someone's eyes in the audience and knowing that I've connected with them, knowing that this song-

Jay Shetty 57:21 Yeah

Speaker 57:21 ... means the world to this person, that this song is an expression of what they also might be feeling, that my being able to sing something in a way that connects with someone else, that allows them to then process something that they've also been through. That to me is what I love. That for me is ... That's the question.

Jay Shetty 57:40 Mm.

Speaker 57:40 You answered that. That's actually the best validation.

Jay Shetty 57:42 Mm.

Speaker 57:42 It's not actually what people say. It's what I can witness someone feeling.

Jay Shetty 57:47 Mm.

Speaker 57:47 To me, that is the best validation, for me.

Jay Shetty 57:49 Mm.

Speaker 57:50 I don't have to wait for that validation. That's almost instant. It happens when I speak to someone, when I sing to someone. A, a person can't hide how they feel.

Jay Shetty 57:59 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 58:00 You know? Even though pe- we think we can, we actually ca- cannot.

Jay Shetty 58:04 Mm.

Speaker 58:04 It shows up in the small, minute m- movements in our body. It shows up in our faces. It shows up in how we express. It shows up in how open we are when we're speaking to a person, more than a person saying, "Oh, my God. That was amazing."

Jay Shetty 58:17 Mm.

Speaker 58:18 Which is lovely, but actually, I'm not necessarily seeking 100 thank yous and 100 you're, you're amazings. I'm not looking for that. I'm actually looking for how deeply can I connect with people?

Jay Shetty 58:31 Mm.

Speaker 58:31 How much can I make people feel? It, does this mean that someone is gonna go and figure out something in their relationships with someone? Does this mean that they're gonna finally have a conversation with that person that they haven't spoken to for years because they've been harboring a feeling that they haven't yet faced? If that is what comes of my music, my work, teaching, whatever it is, then that's the validation I want, right?

Jay Shetty 58:57 Mm.

Speaker 58:57 But what that lyric speaks about is the other sort, that you're sort of waiting for people to say that you're amazing. You're waiting for people to send, like, give you, like, all of the outward input that you can take. But eventually, it's this, it's that old weird thing where you see 100 lovely messages, and you see that one message that isn't great, and e- everything comes tumbling down.

Jay Shetty 59:19 Mm.

Speaker 59:19 Because it isn't based on anything. It, there's no foundation for it, right?

Jay Shetty 59:22 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 59:23 But if you can connect with that one person, those 10 people, those 15 people in that audience, y- when their tears are falling, and you can hear it in the ... There's something really wonderful about when it's quiet, and you hear that one person go [sniffs] . You go, "Okay. That person's connected, and they, they're feeling something."

Jay Shetty 59:43 Mm.

Speaker 59:43 If you make people feel, then-

Jay Shetty 59:46 Oof

Speaker 59:46 ... then that's the validation we want. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:48 Mic drop.

Speaker 59:49 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 59:50 Oh, yeah. That, yeah. And I, and I feel that.

Speaker 59:52 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:53 You know? Like, you ... I, I feel that, and as I was listening to you, I was thinking, sometimes when I'm speaking to a large group or leading a meditation-

Speaker 1:00:02 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:00:02 ... for, like, maybe sometimes I've been fortunate enough to lead meditations for, like, 5, 10,000-

Speaker 1:00:07 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:00:07 ... 20, 30,000 people, maybe even more in, in one time. And I almost, in my mind when I'm leading it, I'll go back to when there were just 10 people in the room-

Speaker 1:00:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:17 ... and when I used to lead meditations for five people in the room.

Speaker 1:00:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:00:20 Because that's also-... what we all wanna feel.

Speaker 1:00:24 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:25 Like, we're all looking for

Jay Shetty 1:00:26 intimacy-

Speaker 1:00:26 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:27 ... deeply. That's what we're seeking-

Speaker 1:00:29 Yep, yep

Jay Shetty 1:00:29 ... is, is intimacy.

Speaker 1:00:30 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:00:31 And we go to these big group gatherings to feel, and that's what music does for people, is it makes us feel intimate with the person standing next to us-

Speaker 1:00:40 Right

Jay Shetty 1:00:40 ... because we have a shared experience.

Speaker 1:00:41 There's a shared experience.

Jay Shetty 1:00:42 And I feel intimate with the person singing it because-

Speaker 1:00:45 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:45 ... I feel a shared experience.

Speaker 1:00:47 That's it, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:00:47 And that's what we're all seeking, is this-

Speaker 1:00:48 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:48 ... intimacy in this mass.

Speaker 1:00:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:00:51 We're still looking for this moment where I just caught a glimpse of even someone in the audience-

Speaker 1:00:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:55 ... who both kinda know we both felt-

Speaker 1:00:58 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:58 ... what we just heard.

Speaker 1:00:59 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:00:59 And it's really interesting to me that we've confused validation with love.

Speaker 1:01:05 With it, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:01:05 We've confused attention with affection.

Speaker 1:01:09 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:01:09 We've confused praise with power-

Speaker 1:01:13 Right

Jay Shetty 1:01:14 ... and purity.

Speaker 1:01:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:01:16 And over here, we're really seeking intimacy-

Speaker 1:01:19 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:01:20 ... but we'll trade it for adulation-

Speaker 1:01:22 Right, right

Jay Shetty 1:01:22 ... and adoration-

Speaker 1:01:23 Right, right

Jay Shetty 1:01:23 ... and everything else that doesn't quite hit the spot.

Speaker 1:01:26 Right, right, right.

Jay Shetty 1:01:27 And as I was listening to you, I, I love that for you as your definition.

Speaker 1:01:31 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:01:32 And I think that's what's so important, is having your definition-

Speaker 1:01:35 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:36 ... of what validation matters to you.

Speaker 1:01:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:01:38 Because otherwise, you'll constantly be pulled and pushed-

Speaker 1:01:42 All over the place

Jay Shetty 1:01:42 ... by, by everything that comes.

Speaker 1:01:44 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:01:44 And you'll run after it wherever-

Speaker 1:01:45 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:45 ... it's delivered. Whereas you're really clear. Like, I do love the applause, of course, and so do I. I'm, I'm the same as you. Like-

Speaker 1:01:50 No, of course. It's wonderful

Jay Shetty 1:01:51 ... I love it. Of course it is. But, like, when, yesterday, when I was flying home, and one of the air stewards came up to me and was just like, "Don't stop doing what you're doing. It really makes-"

Speaker 1:02:00 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:02:00 "... a difference." [laughs] I was just like-

Speaker 1:02:01 It's the best thing in the world

Jay Shetty 1:02:03 ... I'm about to cry. [laughs]

Speaker 1:02:03 It's so wonderful because-

Jay Shetty 1:02:04 Yeah

Speaker 1:02:04 ... because you know that you have affected a person. It isn't just, um, face value. Like, you have, I, I use the word infiltrated their nervous system.

Jay Shetty 1:02:15 [laughs]

Speaker 1:02:16 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:02:16 Yeah. I like that.

Speaker 1:02:17 You're a part of how they now move through their days. Something about what you said has affected the way they now behave towards other people and behave in their lives, and that is really, really special. Like, that's actually the core of what, what we're supposed to be doing as human beings.

Jay Shetty 1:02:38 Mm.

Speaker 1:02:39 Not even just in my field or your field, but as human beings, what we want to be able to do is give p- a person something that they can take away with them into their own lives. If we can do that, for me, be- beyond anything.

Jay Shetty 1:02:56 Yeah, yeah. It's so true, and I think, like, whether you're a musician-

Speaker 1:03:00 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:03:00 ... whether you're a creator, whether you're an author, whether you're an entrepreneur making a product, if you look at your comments section-

Speaker 1:03:07 Right

Jay Shetty 1:03:07 ... or your reviews-

Speaker 1:03:08 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:08 ... you'll see people pouring their heart out-

Speaker 1:03:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:11 ... who you've impacted.

Speaker 1:03:12 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:03:12 But the mind just wants the next million followers-

Speaker 1:03:16 Next, right, right

Jay Shetty 1:03:16 ... or the next-

Speaker 1:03:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:17 ... 10K in revenue, or whatever it is that you're working towards. And like, you miss the fact-

Speaker 1:03:22 You miss the fact that someone-

Jay Shetty 1:03:22 ... that there's a human

Speaker 1:03:23 ... who took the time to be like, "You changed something for me."

Jay Shetty 1:03:26 Yeah.

Speaker 1:03:27 You know? So, I, I don't know. I, I've been thinking about, as you were speaking-

Jay Shetty 1:03:31 Yeah, please

Speaker 1:03:32 ... something came up for me when you were talking about intimacy. Um, there's a concert hall that I performed, and I... But it was in the round, and which means that the stage is sort of in the center, but-

Jay Shetty 1:03:47 Mm

Speaker 1:03:48 ... still in prosarch, which means y- you have a front of the stage, and then it comes back. But behind you, there are people seated, watching from behind. So they, they have your head and your back most, for most of it, and then there are people sitting in front, in the round. And I, I remember, and I, I will alw- I would always do this. Whether we like it or not, we want to be seen. So what I would try to do when I'm in those theaters is before we really launch into the whole concert, I would always sing a portion of the music to the people who would normally just get the back of my head. Because what that says is, "I see you as well." That's a form of intimacy, to go, "Yes, I see you, but I also know that there are people who are behind me who are, w- who wanna be a part of this as much as, as you, and they're only getting my m- the back of my head and the back of my, my shoulders, and they're not getting the front of me," which is, you know, our, our heart is caged. This is the thing I think of. Our heart is in our, in our ribcage, and within-

Jay Shetty 1:04:51 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:04:52 ... all of that. And but it's in the front, and they get the back.

Jay Shetty 1:04:57 Mm.

Speaker 1:04:58 So you kind of want to make sure that they get your heart, too. They, they get to see the, the front of you, where your heart is placed.

Jay Shetty 1:05:05 Yeah.

Speaker 1:05:05 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:05:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:05:06 It's here, but this is where we, that's where we f- in our, like, in imaginations, this is where it is. So you turn to them, and you, a- and you're open.

Speaker 1:05:16 So you say, "Hey, I see you, and I can see you here, and I know that you're getting the back of my head, but I'm not gonna leave you-

Jay Shetty 1:05:21 Mm

Speaker 1:05:22 ... out. I, I want you to be a part of this intimate experience that we're having together." And I feel like within this music, that's kind of what I want to do. Like, we're in the round, and I think a lot of people have had the back of my head.

Jay Shetty 1:05:40 [exhales] Wow.

Speaker 1:05:40 And a lot of people have had my sh- the back of my shoulders and the back of me, and I, I really want for this album to be like me turning around and going, "Hey, I, I s- I see you, and I want you to s- to see my heart, too, as well."

Jay Shetty 1:05:54 Mm.

Speaker 1:05:54 'Cause I know that there's a, a large amount of people who've seen me and my heart, but there are some people who, who don't know that part of me. And they see the pretty dresses, and they see me say nice things, and all those things, but I want them to, to get the front of me, too.

Jay Shetty 1:06:08 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:10 You did that in the album.

Speaker 1:06:11 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:06:11 Like, it comes across.

Speaker 1:06:12 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:06:13 It's, it's such a invitation.

Speaker 1:06:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:06:16 Into that intimate space-

Speaker 1:06:18 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:06:18 ... for yourself, for them.

Speaker 1:06:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:19 And that's why I think, like, people are gonna listen to this, whether they've just gone through a breakup-

Speaker 1:06:24 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:06:24 ... or a divorce, they're gonna listen to this. If they're just falling in love-

Speaker 1:06:27 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:06:28 ... they're gonna listen to this al-

Speaker 1:06:29 That's what I want.

Jay Shetty 1:06:29 Yeah, they're gonna listen to this album if they're on their own journey.

Speaker 1:06:32 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:32 They're gonna listen to this album with their friends. Like, I feel like it's one of those albums-

Speaker 1:06:37 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:06:37 ... that you're gonna experience-

Speaker 1:06:39 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:06:39 ... not just listen to.

Speaker 1:06:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:40 And not just have on in the background. And yeah, it's, it's, it's so special. A couple more things I wanted to ask you-

Speaker 1:06:45 Please

Jay Shetty 1:06:45 ... about. There was another lyric-

Speaker 1:06:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:06:47 ... from Replay as well, and you were mentioning it just there. It was, um, this, and it's so powerful and you ... I, I'm a big fan of break- like reading lyrics and like-

Speaker 1:06:56 Please

Jay Shetty 1:06:56 ... uh, 'cause there's such a l-

Speaker 1:06:57 That's, that's, this, this, this album is that.

Jay Shetty 1:06:58 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:59 Which you don't get that often

Jay Shetty 1:06:59 There's such a, like, 'cause it's such mastery as well.

Speaker 1:07:01 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:07:01 Like, for even anyone who loves poetry and writing-

Speaker 1:07:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:07:04 ... and it's just-

Speaker 1:07:05 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:07:05 But you go, "Daddy trauma has emasculated all my common sense.

Speaker 1:07:10 All my common sense.

Jay Shetty 1:07:10 So I'm looking through the lens of an impending abandonment."

Speaker 1:07:13 Of an impending abandonment, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:14 "All the voices in my head, say I'm not worth the time you spent. So I search for an escape before you notice your mistake."

Speaker 1:07:21 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:21 And it, I mean, I mean, it's just beautiful to even read off the page.

Speaker 1:07:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:24 Like, it's such a... The part that struck out to me there was the, "So I'm looking through the lens of an impending abandonment."

Speaker 1:07:31 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:07:32 And I was like, goes back to what you were just saying now.

Speaker 1:07:34 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:34 That people feel

Jay Shetty 1:07:35 that.

Speaker 1:07:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:35 People feel really abandoned.

Speaker 1:07:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:37 By themselves, too.

Speaker 1:07:38 It's also about feeling abandoned, and then taking that into everything you go into.

Jay Shetty 1:07:46 Mm.

Speaker 1:07:47 And so even now, sometimes, I expect people to leave. So what, the way I move, the way I work, I don't trust people quickly. I am expecting them to go away. It, it's sort of like I, if I can set myself up to know that I'm going to be abandoned, then I can't be hurt when it happens.

Jay Shetty 1:08:08 Yes.

Speaker 1:08:09 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:08:09 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:08:10 And so what I've had to do over time is start to trust people, and to not tar everything with the brush of abandonment. If a person has to leave, a person has to leave. That's okay. They're not abandoning, they're simply leaving, you know? And, and that isn't to say that the experience of feeling abandoned isn't real, but it is altus- also to say that that experience of abandonment isn't always what happens. And for a really long time, I couldn't tell the difference. And so every time a friend left, or I broke up with a person, or a relationship didn't quite work, I, it felt like a, a massive, uh, moment of abandonment. It felt like the f- the floor was taken out from underneath me, and it's ta- it's taken a long time to get to a point where I can trust that that's not the case. And so what it would do is stop me from saying how I really felt in a situation, 'cause I didn't want them to go away.

Jay Shetty 1:09:22 Yeah, wow.

Speaker 1:09:22 You know, like, if I'm, if I'm not happy with something, then I wouldn't say, 'cause I don't want them to have a reason to leave.

Jay Shetty 1:09:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:09:30 You know? Or if I didn't want something, then I wouldn't say I didn't, I didn't want something, 'cause I was afraid that they would leave, right? Uh, and unfortunately, that leads sometimes to really dangerous situations, 'cause you don't speak up. And I've had to learn to be okay with the idea that if someone leaves, they are meant to, and if they're meant to come back, they will, right?

Jay Shetty 1:10:00 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:10:01 But sometimes we're very afraid to chance it. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:10:04 Mm.

Speaker 1:10:05 Or we're very afraid to let a person go. We are afraid to let a person go, and we need to be okay with letting people go. Because they have their own journey as well. We don't know what path people are walking on when they walk into our lives. We might just be a stepping stone in their path, just like stepping stones are in their life, and they might just be a stepping stone in our lives as we keep moving forward. If we're not confident or comfortable enough to let that be a stepping stone to move on to the next one-

Jay Shetty 1:10:39 Mm

Speaker 1:10:40 ... we won't go anywhere. We're stuck.

Jay Shetty 1:10:42 Would you say that's the hardest emotion you've ever had to face and deal with, or has there been harder?

Speaker 1:10:47 I think that has been, because it's shown up in many different ways for different people, for me, and I think it's always b- that's always been the root emotion that makes other emotions amplified. Feeling abandoned makes hurt feel a lot bigger than it, than it should, or feeling abandoned makes loss feel bigger than that. So it's like silly things, like if a friend, if I call a friend, and I don't ... This has happened before. A friend of mine, and it was just their process. She would call, or I would call. She would pick up. We would have the most amazing con- like conversation. We would have, like the connection would be right back where we were before, and it would be lovely. And then I would call maybe a month later, and I would, she wouldn't pick up, or, and I wouldn't s- see her for another month or two, and I would take it so personally. For me, it would be like, "She's left me again." But actually that was just her process. Sometimes she would go and sort of shield herself and grow herself back and put herself back together, and then she would appear again. And I had to learn that that is just the way she exists, and I had to be okay with her way of existing. And once I learnt that that's her way of existing, it meant that I could welcome her with open arms, and I wouldn't be so upset when she was gone, that I knew that she was just putting herself back together again, and I could just send a little message of, "How are you?" and, "I'm thinking of you," and, "I'm gonna call you in a couple of weeks. And if you're around, I'm-"Okay, for a chat and not expect anything, so that when something did come back, it was joyous. It was really wonderful

Jay Shetty 1:12:31 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:12:32 When that feeling of abandonment was the, the, the main focus, it felt really bad when she went away. And it's the sa- and it had been the same in different relationships. That when they had decided that they wanted to move on or when they ... It, it just felt like such a wound, and that is, that is not sustainable. You can't live like that. You can't live believing that everyone is abandoning you, because it makes for a really lonely existence. It means that you build up a wall f- of protection to stop yourself from really being connected to anyone.

Jay Shetty 1:13:19 Yeah, even if you're surrounded by loads of people.

Speaker 1:13:21 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:13:22 You know, you've been dedicated to your art for so many years, and I feel like Wicked was like this global phenomenon.

Speaker 1:13:29 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:13:30 Right? It's ... And, and you've been recognized and won awards-

Speaker 1:13:33 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:33 ... and done phenomenal work, but Wicked was just-

Speaker 1:13:36 It, yeah, it was-

Jay Shetty 1:13:36 It felt, at least from the outside, it-

Speaker 1:13:37 It, yeah, that's right

Jay Shetty 1:13:38 ... yeah, it felt different. Like, how did that change your feeling of fitting in and belonging and ... Because you're part of something bigger-

Speaker 1:13:45 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:45 ... and this big, like, how does that kind of, how do you make sense of that?

Speaker 1:13:48 What's really interesting is that I think I've really been able to lean into who I am, and what I noticed is that there are so many people in the world who feel really different. And because I got to do this piece that put me in front of many people, it meant that there are other people who felt like they were invisible who finally felt visible again.

Jay Shetty 1:14:11 Mm.

Speaker 1:14:11 And that has been something that's really wonderful to experience, to bump into people who didn't feel like they fit, women specifically,

Speaker 1:14:20 who have spoken to me about either, um, women who have suffered cancer and have been through chemotherapy and lost their hair and said, "And, and I'm not ill. I'm, my hair is a choice. I, I shaved it first because of the, the film, and then I loved what it did to me. It meant that I really could just see my face and me." And we know that there's a, always a massive conversation around hair and what it does and how long a h- someone's hair is or how smooth or how straight or whatever that is or how curly, whatever. And I had made a choice to not have it at all. And the amount of women who have suffered alopecia, suffered, have been through cancer and survived but h- now have to wear wigs or don't wear wigs or have been, uh, sort of shy about going without, have reached out and been like, "I saw you rocking no hair, and now I feel really confident about walking around with no hair and being bald, and I feel really strong about it." And that's been a huge eye-opener, that there are so many people who feel like they don't belong, but seeing one person who's very different from the norm and, you know, rocks what they rock and are who they are sort of put out a little bit of permission to, to also be who you are.

Jay Shetty 1:15:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:15:38 And, and I think that, for me, was a, a real crux of this. There are so many people trying to just discover themselves, and they just need to see it on someone else to also decide, oh, I can just be.

Jay Shetty 1:15:53 Mm.

Speaker 1:15:53 That's been wonderful. The amount of eyes on you is really new. For me, it's, I'm s- still adjusting to it. And while I have, I'm really grateful for the platform that has been given to me because of it, it's still a new thing. It's new to, to be heard all the time. It's new to, to be seen all the time. It's new to see, [laughs] you know, walk through an airport thinking that you're anonymous and, and not be anonymous at all. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:16:24 [laughs]

Speaker 1:16:24 You know what I mean? Even when you have no makeup on and it's, like, who you are, and that's a norm for me, to walk through an airport, no makeup, no nothing, sort of hat on, just, like, ready to go, but not be recognized. But when you are recognized, it's a new, that's very new for me. It's also really wonderful because people are so excited by it and so excited by these characters and so excited by the people who play the characters. That's also new. Before, I could play a character, and they would recognize the character but not necessarily recognize me from, from the character. Now people know me and the character-

Jay Shetty 1:16:58 Mm

Speaker 1:16:59 ... which is a new thing also, that they are able to separate the person, Elphaba, who I played, and me, Cynthia. That's also a new thing.

Jay Shetty 1:17:10 Yeah.

Speaker 1:17:11 Which is lovely because it means that I, I guess I've made an impression as me as well as an impression as the character.

Jay Shetty 1:17:19 Mm.

Speaker 1:17:19 Which is really lovely.

Jay Shetty 1:17:20 Yeah.

Speaker 1:17:20 It's nice to be able to, it's nice that people have welcomed me into their homes. Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:17:24 Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, well, I, I think Radhi sent you that little clip-

Speaker 1:17:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:17:28 ... of my niece calls me Elphaba, and she thinks she's Glinda. And she just made this up.

Speaker 1:17:34 Oh, my God. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:17:35 And so literally every voice note to me, she calls me Elphaba.

Speaker 1:17:38 That's so sweet.

Jay Shetty 1:17:38 And now I'm Elphaba to her. And so when, when Radhi told her that we know the real Elphaba-

Speaker 1:17:43 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:17:43 ... she just couldn't believe it.

Speaker 1:17:44 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:17:44 And you know, it's, but it's one of those things of, like, just it meant so much.

Speaker 1:17:49 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:17:49 Like, I feel like you and Ariana, like, meant so much more than a movie-

Speaker 1:17:54 Mm-hmm, yeah

Jay Shetty 1:17:54 ... to people.

Speaker 1:17:55 It felt that, yes, people came to see the movie, and people loved what the movie said. But I spoke to someone who's, who said that they, well, a couple of parents actually, who said that this movie has given them the opportunity to have conversations with their kids, and I'm talking about, like, seven-year-olds, six-year-olds, to talk about playground politics and being different and being excluded and what that feels like and the ownership over one's self and deciding to be who you are against all odds and having those conversations between adult and kid and how difficult that can be when there's n- when there's nothing to bring that conversation up. But because of this movie, it, it's meant that people can have those conversations, you know? And then people our age who areLeaning more into their friendships, leaning more into their relationships that they have. That can be difficult, but they can pour more energy into them. And then leaning more into discovering who they are as people, and even though it can be scary to be who you are meant to be, to show up as yourself, it's equally as rewarding. And those conversations that this has sort of brought to life has blown my mind

Jay Shetty 1:19:05 Mm

Speaker 1:19:06 ... um, and it means something different to every single person. You think it's possible, but when you see it, it's beyond.

Jay Shetty 1:19:14 Yeah.

Speaker 1:19:14 It's just beyond, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:19:15 And I think the point you were making about how people accepted Elphaba but accepted you-

Speaker 1:19:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:19:19 ... I think that is because of how you showed up-

Speaker 1:19:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:19:22 ... through all of the, both you and Ariana through all the press.

Speaker 1:19:25 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:19:26 It's almost like you didn't both show up as movie stars-

Speaker 1:19:28 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:19:28 ... you showed up as friends.

Speaker 1:19:29 And people.

Jay Shetty 1:19:30 You showed up as people, and you felt that.

Speaker 1:19:32 Yeah [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:19:32 And I think that's what everyone felt, where it was like, "Oh, they didn't show up as two people who are promoting a movie."

Speaker 1:19:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:19:38 "They showed up as themselves."

Speaker 1:19:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:19:39 And of course, we all loved the movie and wanna watch the movie and all the rest of it, but it was very different-

Speaker 1:19:44 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:19:44 ... to what people have been exposed to before.

Speaker 1:19:46 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:19:46 That you don't usually see that.

Speaker 1:19:47 I don't even think we did that on purpose, I think that's just who-

Jay Shetty 1:19:50 That's just who you are

Speaker 1:19:50 ... that's just who we are, you know? I think, I don't know that I've said to myself, "Oh, I'm gonna come to these, the Q&As, and, and I'm gonna just talk about this and that." I think I just... There's something wonderful that exhaustion does to you, where it's like the veil sort of falls away.

Jay Shetty 1:20:05 [laughs]

Speaker 1:20:05 And we had been, we were already exhausted before we'd begun [laughs] the press tour. Because we'd worked so long, we'd been working so long on it, and we'd worked really hard. We didn't really have much of a time away from the film before we began, you know, sharing it with people. We finished the film in February, and were on the road basically from June. So that's not a long time, and between that time, we also were working on other things. So we hadn't actually stopped. So by the time we, we were in front of everybody, there was no energy to put up pretenses. We just were who we were. And there's something wonderful about having only the energy to exist in, in yourself in front of people. And then once you begin that way, it doesn't go in the other di- direction, it just amplifies. And so we become-

Jay Shetty 1:20:54 [laughs]

Speaker 1:20:54 You just watched us become more and more and more of ourselves, and y- all the tears that you saw were very, very real, because the experience was still very raw. We only just had left it in February. That was the last time I took off the green. I hadn't completely put her down yet. Sh- I was still sort of

Speaker 1:21:13 decompressing and, you know, letting her go, and putting myself back together in front of people. That's what was happening. And then we were having to talk about our characters and talk about the experience, and it was only a month or two [laughs] away, and that's sort of how it was. And then y- because we're having these constant conversations, we're also relearning and remembering, and figuring things out, lea- learning new things. There were things that I didn't know that she was experiencing that I learnt on the spot, and there were things that I was experiencing that she was learning on the spot, and the things that our director was experiencing that we had just realized. So we were learning new things in real time in front of everybody, but we weren't pretending that it was-

Jay Shetty 1:21:55 Mm

Speaker 1:21:55 ... old hat to us.

Jay Shetty 1:21:56 Mm.

Speaker 1:21:56 We were realizing, "Oh my God, I didn't kn- I didn't know that. That's a new thing to, to learn."

Jay Shetty 1:22:01 Yeah.

Speaker 1:22:01 I think hopefully we'll make people do that more. When you're in this sort of business, and I was p- speaking to someone about this, the, the tendency is to put up the wall and try to protect yourself. And actually, the most wonderful thing you can give anyone who's watching is, is a little bit of yourself. Uh, and the revelation that it is a human experience, all of the things that it looks fancy when you're running around and you're in the pretty dresses, but when you're on a set, it's as human and as real as you can possibly make it. You're up early, you're exhausted every day, the makeup is coming on and off, and you- there's someone, you know, you're meeting loads of different people who you've only met for the first time on day one, and then you've got to perform that next day. It's a very vulnerable, op- like, very open experience, and you have to sort of learn to get used to that quite quickly. And then once you are used to that, you then make family with people, and you're, you get to know everyone's tells, and you get to know everyone's sort of like the way people tick. Or, "She's really tired today, I'm gonna bring her a cookie. She likes ch- chocolate chip cookies, and I know that will make her happy." Or, "He actually is vegan, so he'll only have the double chocolate," which is, you know, "And he loves Raisin' Oat, and that's his favorite thing, but don't put butter in it because he actually really doesn't like th-" You know, you start to learn-

Jay Shetty 1:23:18 Yeah

Speaker 1:23:18 ... what people like. She likes to eat at 12, but he likes to eat at 2. Uh, he's tired judging by, you know, how fast he's working, but actually she's had a great morning 'cause she's really quick. Or she's quite shy, so go to her, speak to her quietly. Or, the, you learn people.

Jay Shetty 1:23:33 Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:33 And then you have to let them go.

Jay Shetty 1:23:34 [exhales sharply]

Speaker 1:23:35 You have to, you actually have to say goodbye. So that's a really human experience once you come off a set. And I think when you promote something, when you're on the road and you're talking about that experience, you do yourself and everyone else a service by making people understand just how human the experience is.

Jay Shetty 1:23:57 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:23:57 So that, that people understand that it isn't just moving pictures, and we aren't just people you sort of cut and splice together. On that day, this person might have been having a terrible day, but yet they did this. And that day, she was in complete pain in this harness that she'd been in for 12 hours, but she was still able to sing that. And on this day, she [laughs] you know, even though she has an allergy to whatever, she still moved through it because that was happening. You know, everyone is trying to create something, create art.

Jay Shetty 1:24:28 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:29 And we're not doing it from the comfort of our homes and our sofas.

Jay Shetty 1:24:34 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:34 We're really on the ground, in the dirt, moving through it. And then we come together to share it. That really is what being on the road is about, sharing the experience. And I think-We kind of knew that almost automatically, and I think it's something that I will take with me for the rest of my life, not just for this next movie, but for everything I do. To make it a re-human experience is-

Jay Shetty 1:24:56 Yeah

Speaker 1:24:57 ... a gift.

Jay Shetty 1:24:58 I remember I've, I've traveled so much with my clients and been on set-

Speaker 1:25:01 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:25:01 ... and been in trailers-

Speaker 1:25:02 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:25:02 ... from coaching someone or working with someone, and I couldn't believe how not glamorous-

Speaker 1:25:08 Oh, my God. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:25:08 ... film sets are.

Jay Shetty 1:25:10 They're just not at all. And it's so interesting because no one ever sees that.

Speaker 1:25:14 No.

Jay Shetty 1:25:15 You only see the finished product, and then you see the red carpet.

Speaker 1:25:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:18 And so you assume actors have a really, like, glamorous life.

Speaker 1:25:22 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:23 And actually, for four months, or for projects like yours, for years-

Speaker 1:25:26 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:25:27 ... you're sitting in a tiny little trailer-

Speaker 1:25:29 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:25:30 ... uh, you know, putting on your clothes, taking them off-

Speaker 1:25:32 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:25:32 ... looking at lines, like, whatever, makeup, whatever it is.

Speaker 1:25:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:35 You go on set, you wait for three hours.

Speaker 1:25:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:37 You don't know when you're going back out. It's cold. It's-

Speaker 1:25:39 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:25:39 ... you know, it- it's so interesting how what you see and what you think-

Speaker 1:25:44 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:25:44 ... are two-

Speaker 1:25:45 Very different

Jay Shetty 1:25:45 ... totally different things.

Speaker 1:25:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:47 And it dehumanizes people.

Speaker 1:25:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:25:49 And, and so there's, there's such a need for that. And I don't think I could ever be friends with anyone who likes oatmeal raisin cookies, so-

Speaker 1:25:56 But listen, if-

Jay Shetty 1:25:56 I'm just pointing out, I'm just ...

Speaker 1:25:57 If they're made in the right way-

Jay Shetty 1:25:59 [laughs]

Speaker 1:25:59 ... and they're crunchy on the outside but sort of like soft and buttery on the inside-

Jay Shetty 1:26:03 No, there's no one that c-

Speaker 1:26:04 ... it'll be good

Jay Shetty 1:26:05 ... you can't convince me, Cynthia.

Speaker 1:26:06 I, I-

Jay Shetty 1:26:07 You-

Speaker 1:26:07 I think there's a place for them in the world.

Jay Shetty 1:26:09 There's not. Is there?

Speaker 1:26:09 I do think that. I, I think so.

Jay Shetty 1:26:11 There's that, there's that ... I can't remember who said it, but someone was like, "Raisin cookies are the reason I have trust issues," because it's like-

Speaker 1:26:17 [laughs] It's 'cause you think it's chocolate-

Jay Shetty 1:26:17 You're hoping they're chocolate

Speaker 1:26:18 ... and it's not.

Jay Shetty 1:26:18 Yeah, exactly. And-

Speaker 1:26:20 I t- I will make ... Like, I, 'cause I, I do like to bake occasionally, and when I was, when I was on the set, I would make big tins, like two, three tins full-

Jay Shetty 1:26:29 Oh

Speaker 1:26:29 ... of, like, cookies for people. So I would do, like, a set of chocolate chip, a set of like double chocolate, some chocolate and salt-

Jay Shetty 1:26:36 You're speaking my language right now

Speaker 1:26:37 ... like some of-

Jay Shetty 1:26:37 Definitely, yeah

Speaker 1:26:37 ... like salted caramel. And then for this one person, my wonderful first AD, Jack, who was like, "I just want oatmeal raisin. That's what I want, and that's my favorite." And I would make them from scratch, and I would, like, with, uh, absolute love, and I sometime would, I would put maybe like raspberries in it, or sometimes I would do white chocolate in it. And he, he would ... And if that's what someone loves, that's what someone loves.

Jay Shetty 1:27:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:27:02 He would know very clearly that that is what that was, that ... And I would make just a couple extra just in case anyone else felt like they wanted to try, and I would make it very clear, "This is not chocolate. There is, there are raisins, just so you trust me, but there are chocolate chip over there." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:27:18 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:27:19 "If you need it." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:27:21 That's me, I'm over there.

Speaker 1:27:22 But-

Jay Shetty 1:27:22 I love it. That's amazing that you're doing that every day.

Speaker 1:27:25 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:26 That's ... When I-

Speaker 1:27:26 I would do it every Monday for people

Jay Shetty 1:27:27 ... every Monday. Yeah.

Speaker 1:27:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:28 That's beautiful.

Speaker 1:27:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:29 That's so beautiful. Cynthia, it's been such an honor to talk to you, and I could literally talk to you for hours.

Speaker 1:27:34 I know. We could go forever. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:27:35 But I know ... Yeah, I was like, I just got from the-

Speaker 1:27:37 I know

Jay Shetty 1:27:37 ... from your team, I just got a little time nod, so I wanna be mindful of that.

Speaker 1:27:41 No.

Jay Shetty 1:27:41 But, uh, honestly, you are ... I just, I love meeting people whose work is infused with such deep inner work.

Speaker 1:27:49 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:27:49 Like, it really brings my heart joy to see that when people are putting art out into the world-

Speaker 1:27:54 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:27:54 ... it's coming from so much-

Speaker 1:27:56 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:27:57 ... revelation and reflection and inner work. Because I think sometimes we all appreciate art-

Speaker 1:28:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:28:04 ... but for so long in the world, you appreciated art but never knew the artist-

Speaker 1:28:10 Right

Jay Shetty 1:28:11 ... until they died maybe.

Speaker 1:28:12 Correct. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:28:12 And you didn't really understand them-

Speaker 1:28:14 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:28:14 ... because they weren't famous, or there wasn't social media-

Speaker 1:28:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:28:17 ... or podcasting didn't exist. It's like you saw a piece of art, and you thought-

Speaker 1:28:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:28:19 ... it was beautiful, but you didn't really know that artist.

Speaker 1:28:22 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:28:22 And I just really appreciate you just being so open and vulnerable-

Speaker 1:28:25 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:28:26 ... as the artist-

Speaker 1:28:26 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:28:27 ... as the human, because it gives us such an invitation to, to understand ourselves better or understand-

Speaker 1:28:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:28:32 ... you better. And, uh, I can't wait for people to listen to the album.

Speaker 1:28:35 I hope you do.

Jay Shetty 1:28:35 Um, and so-

Speaker 1:28:36 I'm really proud of it.

Jay Shetty 1:28:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:28:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:28:37 Yeah, you should be. It really ... I meant every word. Like-

Speaker 1:28:40 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:28:40 ... it's, when you hear new music and it, and you're making sense of it just on your own-

Speaker 1:28:45 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:28:45 ... and it feels like that-

Speaker 1:28:46 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:28:47 ... it, I can't wait for people to hear it. And as always, friend, I'm, I'm rooting for you.

Speaker 1:28:51 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:28:52 I'm forever in your corner.

Speaker 1:28:53 You too.

Jay Shetty 1:28:53 And so grateful for you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:28:55 Thank you for having me.

Jay Shetty 1:28:56 Yeah.

Speaker 1:28:56 Thank you for having me again.

Jay Shetty 1:28:57 With that, if you loved this episode, you will also love my interview with Kendall Jenner on setting boundaries to increase happiness and healing your inner child.

Speaker 1:29:07 You could be reading something that someone is saying about you and being like, "That is so unfair, 'cause that's not who I am."

Jay Shetty 1:29:12 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:29:12 And that really gets to me sometimes. But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like, "But I know who I am. Why does anything else matter?"