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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

Dating Coach: #1 Sign You’ve Found the Right Person (Or If You’re SETTLING)

Dating coach, Jillian Turecki, reveals the hard truths about dating and relationships that most people avoid facing.

Jillian TureckiguestJay Shettyhost
Feb 24, 20251h 12mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:39

    Introduction

    1. JT

      Who you decide to partner with is one of the most important decisions you will ever make. If someone is not into you, they absolutely are not for you.

    2. SP

      World-renowned relationship coach.

    3. JS

      Podcast host and speaker. Jillian Turecki.

    4. JT

      It's the, "Why me? This is never gonna happen." People then get into this learned helplessness. "This state that I am in is permanent." No.

    5. JS

      What are the three biggest mistakes I'm making in dating right now?

    6. JT

      Okay, so number one is... [upbeat music]

    7. SP

      The number one health and wellness podcast.

    8. JT

      Jay Shetty.

    9. SP

      Jay Shetty.

    10. JT

      The one, the only Jay Shetty.

    11. SP

      [laughs]

  2. 0:39 – 4:01

    3 Biggest Dating Mistakes

    1. JS

      I always try to get a sense of what our audience is worried about and concerned about and challenged with, and one of the big things that keeps coming up is, "What are the three biggest mistakes I'm making in dating right now?"

    2. JT

      Mm.

    3. JS

      Like, what am I getting wrong about dating? That seems to be the top question.

    4. JT

      So there's a few things. One is it shouldn't just be the apps. I don't tell people, "Get off the apps." Sometimes I say, "Get on the apps." But if you just focus on that, that's gonna burn you out, and it's gonna exhaust you, and you're meeting a bunch of strangers. So that's, like, another mistake that people make is that they're impatient. It's not every day that you meet someone who you want to build a relationship with. Like, it's just not that easy. But you have to get out there, you have to be proactive. Look, there are people who are sitting around on their couch waiting for, like, that person to fall [laughs] onto the couch next to them, and it's not gonna happen that way. So you can either live your life to the fullest and enjoy your life and trust that one day organically it may or may not happen if you put yourself out there and you widen your circle, or you actually have to be proactive, and that might mean going on a, like, dating like it's your business. Like, going on a bunch of dates every single week with as low of an expectation as possible. ‘Cause one of the biggest mistakes that people make i- in dating, like, I have nothing but compassion and empathy for this, but you're texting with someone, you're kind of excited, you feel like there's a vibe, and then you go out and you're like, "Uh, I don't feel a spark" or, "I'm not into it." And then there's this... People then get into learned helplessness, and when they go into learned helplessness, they're like, you know, it's the, "Why me? This is never gonna happen. It's- this state that I am in is permanent. Like, I will never find anyone." No. Dating is really an opportunity for you to practice your social skills. Social skills are things that most people are not that great at, honestly, even the people who think that they're [laughs] really great at it. It takes a lot to really talk to someone and not interview them and actually be curious about them. You know, a lot of people are nervous, so practice breathing and being comfortable in your body and getting to know someone. And who knows? Maybe you make a friend, and maybe you never want to see that person again, but at least you're practicing. So the three biggest mistakes is just focusing on the apps and not actually expanding your circle and doing new things and letting certain things unfold organically. Number two, impatience. Number three, just sort of high expectations, but I want to add another one if I can.

    5. JS

      Please.

    6. JT

      People get into these very long, I mean, when I say long, like weeks, texting exchanges with these people, and it gives them a false sense of intimacy. "Oh, I have this amazing connection." They have never even met the person. And then maybe they never meet. Don't do that. Text a little bit back and forth, like a day, and make a date to either ma- on, meet on FaceTime, Zoom, or in person. You really should go about it as if your time is too precious to waste texting back and forth with a stranger who, uh, may not be available.

    7. JS

      For a month.

    8. JT

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      Or more.

    10. JT

      For a month.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. JT

      Or more. And then you're getting all exci- I understand, like, the thrill of it, and it's all, it, it's exciting, but it's such a waste of time, honestly, you know? Meet the person.

    13. JS

      As you

  3. 4:01 – 7:50

    Overcome Your Fear Of Rejection

    1. JS

      were speaking, I was thinking about what's at the root of that for so many people, and one of the things that came to me was this fear of rejection.

    2. JT

      Yes.

    3. JS

      So even the idea of, "I'm talking to this person for a month," is because I don't have to potentially face meeting someone and them never wanting to meet me again, or the resistance that we have to make work and dating feel the same. I know so many people who will cancel on dates last minute because they're scared of, "Well, what if I go and it doesn't work out?"

    4. JT

      Mm.

    5. JS

      Or... And, and rejection, by the way, is two types of rejection. One type of rejection is, "That person doesn't want me."

    6. JT

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JS

      And the other type of rejection is, "That person doesn't meet my expectations," or-

    8. JT

      Yes

    9. JS

      ... "That person, I don't want to be with them."

    10. JT

      Yes.

    11. JS

      So I'm not just saying rejection in that we're scared of, "Well, what if that person doesn't like me?" We're also scared of the, "Am I gonna reject another person?" And like you said, with the high expectations. What do we do about both of those types of our fear of rejection? Because let's take the, the more obvious one to start with. We all want to be loved. We want to be liked. We all want the next person to be the person.

    12. JT

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      Chances are that's not gonna happen. We'd know that.

    14. JT

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      But still, we struggle with the fact that I'm gonna meet someone and they're gonna say, "Well, you're not right for me," or, you know, "I don't, don't really want to see you again." Like, how do you get over that? Because we talk about it in entrepreneurship, we talk about it in life, but when you do it with love, it seems so personal.

    16. JT

      It's one thing to be rejected by the person you love. It's another thing to be rejected by a stranger who you don't know. This is just human nature. We go on dates. Even if we're not into the person, we want them to be into us.

    17. JS

      [laughs]

    18. JT

      Or... Right?

    19. JS

      Yes.

    20. JT

      Or, like, we find them... Let's say we find them attractive, and then we find out, "Wait, you're not into me? You don't find me attractive?" Yeah, but life really, the quality of our lives is very much determined by how well we can confront rejection. Like, you're not gonna be for everyone. And I really believe this with all of my heart and soul. If someone is not into you, for whatever reason, like let's say you're in the early dating process, they're not attracted to you, they're not feeling a spark, whatever it is, they absolutely are not for you. I can guarantee that. So it's important to build that resilience against rejection muscle. First of all, it makes a person more attractive. Second of all, it's just part of life, and I know that it's like you're putting yourself out there, but I wish there was like a magic pill that I could give people to just get over it. But you have to become more resilient when it comes to that. You know, you can't be hiding be- behind texts and not actually meet the person. It sounds hard, but you have to be stronger than that.

    21. JS

      Yeah.

    22. JT

      Honestly. You really, really do. And, and you have to just trust that, like, you're not for everyone, and not everyone's for you. And yes, it's awkward, and maybe we can just all acknowledge the awkwardness of it all. You know? But you still have to, if you want love and you want a relationship, you have to go for it. You can't just be passive.

    23. JS

      You're looking for one person to fall in love with you and for you to fall in love with.

    24. JT

      Yes.

    25. JS

      And for that, you're going to have to meet a lot of people-

    26. JT

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... to find that one person, but all you need is one person to say yes, one person to say, "I do," one person to say, "I love you."

    28. JT

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      And if you're only looking for one person, just by the nature of odds, you should know [laughs] -

    30. JT

      Yes

  4. 7:50 – 11:46

    Love is a Choice

    1. JS

      I think it's so natural for so many of us to want to speed up love.

    2. JT

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      Like, speeding up love seems to be our addiction and obsession with I just wanna meet the one. Now that we're dating, I just wanna get married. Now, you know, it's, we're trying to accelerate love almost.

    4. JT

      Yes.

    5. JS

      So how do we slow it down, and how do we take it back to baseline?

    6. JT

      Number one is there is no the one. [laughs] There really isn't. I mean, we actually choose who the one is, and this is, this is really, really important. Love, as I'm sure you know, is a choice. Like, it's a feeling, for sure, but we're so conditioned to believe that love is just a feeling as opposed to a choice, and that when, if you do decide to be with someone long-term, you're going to have to make that choice many, many times throughout your relationship, which is I choose you, right? So people wanna rush it, and so what they do, and what I've done, is that we lie to ourselves, and it's also because we've been lied by society that there is, and romanticism, that there is this one person who's gonna come into your life and rescue you and make your life better, and that once you find that person, like, everything becomes easier. And, and I'm certainly not advocating for people being in difficult relationships. But the more challenges you've had in relationships, the less that you've been modeled what it is to actually really love someone. The more you are going to be challenged to overcome and transcend old things and old patterning to actually love someone and to do love, to, where, where it's a verb and not just a feeling. So how do we slow it down, and we just wanna rush it? It's about acknowledging that feeling. So a lot of people, they meet, there's chemistry, and I know that this was me. I think if there's chemistry, then this is it, as opposed to, well, maybe in the past there's been chemistry, and I haven't had chemistry with the right people, so maybe I need to slow down a little bit and sort of process my enthusiasm. And it's not about, I don't want anyone to, I don't wanna rain on anyone's parade. Like, all that stuff is really fun in the beginning. But you wanna just say, "Okay, hold on. What am I feeling right now? This feels really good. This is really exciting. But I need to slow down because I actually need to uncover this person's character. I need to uncover their values. I perhaps need to get a little bit clearer on what it is that I need, what it is that I value, and what it is that I really, really want. Not just my preference, but what do I need in order to function in a relationship? Do I have some understanding of myself?" You know, it's difficult. Women, childbearing age, societal pressures, get married. I understand. I have nothing but compassion for that. The more that I can stress that who you decide to partner with is one of the most important decisions you will ever make in your entire life, and we are meant to kind of get it wrong, and some of us get it wrong for a longer time than others, right? But it is the most important decision. So if you're going to rush that, you're really, truly doing yourself a disservice, and you have to get comfortable with the fact that, yes, you're scared. You're scared to be alone. You're scared to not be loved. You don't wanna be in the dating world. I get all of that. Be mindful of it. You know, connect to that within yourself, and remind yourself always that who you decide to spend your life with might be one of the most important decisions, if not the most important decision, because there's no one in your life who's gonna have a bigger impact on your overall wellbeing and emotional state than the person who you choose to spend your life with. So you've got to take that decision very seriously and not rush

  5. 11:46 – 13:17

    The Fear Of Being Alone

    1. JT

      it.

    2. JS

      I have often said to friends there's the pain of being single, and there's the pain of being in the wrong relationship.

    3. JT

      Yes.

    4. JS

      And the pain of being single is a lot better than the pain of being in the wrong relationship.

    5. JT

      Agree 100%. Agree 100%.

    6. JS

      It's, it's, it's so hard when you're dating someone, and you've got enmeshed into each other's lives. There's the toxicity. There's complexity. There's, as you said earlier, there's a disconnect in your values-

    7. JT

      Yes

    8. JS

      ... the person's character. You think you just discovered it, but actually they showed it all along, and you didn't see the signs.

    9. JT

      Yeah.

    10. JS

      And now you're thinking, "Gosh, I was happier when I was single."

    11. JT

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      And you can't see that when you're single because the promise of being in a relationship is so alluring-

    13. JT

      Yes

    14. JS

      ... and intoxicating that we feel like, "I must have that now."

    15. JT

      Yes. And many of those people might think, "Yes, it's easier when I'm single," but they're actually afraid to go back to it, and that's why they stay in these relationships, because we fear the unknown.

    16. JS

      One of the biggest problems in relationships is that if someone's into us, we see it as their weakness, and if someone's not into us, we see it as their strength.

    17. JT

      You're never gonna raise your self-esteem by being too precious with yourself. You have to be willing to be brave and to look at the hard things, but also, at the same time, acknowledge how strong you are. It takes a tremendous amount of resilience just to be a human being.

  6. 13:17 – 19:27

    The Attraction Paradox

    1. JS

      Why is it that we end up being attracted to people that are not into us, and then people who are into us, we're not into them?

    2. JT

      [laughs]

    3. JS

      Why does that happen?

    4. JT

      I'm gonna give you some theories, and they are theories shared by many. But one thing that I say is that if anyone truly understood 100% the answer to that, they would win the Nobel Peace Prize.

    5. JS

      [laughs] Yeah.

    6. JT

      Right? 'Cause everyone has these theories, and they're good theories, and they're rooted in psychology. I really want to put out there that no one truly has the answer to that, but there's some really good theories. So one theory. When someone is not paying as much attention to us, that could trigger attraction, and one of the reasons is, well, maybe they are, like, maybe there's something really special about them, and so we put them on a pedestal. And where we are on the spectrum of our self-esteem impacts that greatly. So if we are on the lower end of self-esteem, then we are gonna meet people often and think that they are better than us. If our self-esteem is on the healthy level, then we kind of are like, "Well, I'm not better than anyone else, and no one's really better than me. We are all one," right? And then there, of course, there's the grandiosity, which is they think everyone is sort of below them in some way. But the people who I work with, and most of the problems, and I think the people who probably write into you, there's more of a lower self-esteem issue happening, where they put someone up on a pedestal, and they project unconsciously their ideal partner onto this person. Maybe this person looks exactly like a childhood crush or like, you know, the actor who they were always in love with. Or maybe there is just something about them and their vibe that they're like, "This is the person that I want." And, and, or maybe it's their job. The things on the surface. People will then think, "I must get this person. Because if I get this person, then I'm actually getting everything that I've ever wanted in a partner on the surface. If I get this person, I'm validated. I'm going to have a good life," right? So it's all an illusion. It truly is all an illusion. Then there's, like, the deeper childhood wounds of my father was very rejecting. I'm, I'm putting this into context just because I'm a woman who dates men, so I'm just thinking more, but it could be, you know, obviously whoever you date. But if one of your parents was rejecting of you, and that's all you ever knew, and so you never really felt good enough. So actually, in dating and in love, your sort of like center of gravity psychologically is, "I work really hard to earn love," as opposed to understanding or being used to, "No, like, all I have to do is be myself, and the right person is going to fall madly in love with me," right?

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JT

      You know, be myself with a little dosage of, like, also let me check myself [laughs] , right? So people are used to that. They're used to the rejection. They, and then again, the lower self-esteem. If they're not into me, challenge accepted, so other people are just like, there's a competitive edge. I'm going to be like, I'm gonna change this person, or I'm gonna be the inspiration for their change, or I'm gonna make them notice me. There's just a conglomerate of influences around that. Why are they not attracted to the person who's actually into them? Again, a lot of theories, and I think they're good ones. Fear of intimacy. You know, if, and this is all unconscious, if I'm into the person who's into me, then we actually have to be in a relationship, and then I actually have to be vulnerable, and then I actually have to be emotionally available. And then we're gonna build this thing, and, like, ooh, that's icky and scary. What's easier for me is to go for the person who's completely emotionally unavailable, who's actually not that into me and may not even be that nice to me, but they're hot, and there's something about them, and I really want to have sex with them, and I'm just going to use that as sort of like an in. There's some deeper healing needs to go on there. Like, that might require therapy. That might require looking into your family of origin and trying to understand that. There could be, like, for a woman who's dating a man, you know, maybe she has a, a very misguided understanding of what it is for a man to be masculine, right? So a woman typically is looking for lots of different things. But a lot of women who date men are looking for a man where she wants to feel safe. She wants to feel safe, and she wants to feel seen. She wants to feel understood. Maybe she's looking for some providership, and maybe that has nothing to do with money, but just has to do with energy and vibe, right? And so then she'll look to the man who may on the outside seem strong. Maybe he's tough. You know, maybe his physique is big and strong. Maybe he's got a little bit of, like, that dark edge. So she reads it as, oh, he's going to protect me. There's something masculine and sexy about him. But on the inside, he's broken. He has no idea how to love because he doesn't know how to love himself. He's not safe. He's actually very unsafe, even if not physically, he's gonna be unsafe emotionally. And so there's a maturity that needs to happen to understand that, like, your type, you have to get under the hood of the car a little bit more and understand, like, if you're looking for those qualities in a person, and I'm just using this as an example, then really what's actually gonna be safe is someone with strong character, someone with presence, someone who has a sense of self, who can actually feel safe in his or her own, her own body. And when they can feel safe in their body, they can actually provide safety for you in the relationship, and that you also have to understand how to make yourself safe. So there's a lot going on. I hope I'm not saying too much, but-

    9. JS

      No, not at all

    10. JT

      ... yeah, but so there's maturity level here. There's misguided understanding of what it is for someone to truly be embodied and safe and valued, and then there's also childhood wound- wounding, and they can, it can, could be all part of it.

    11. JS

      I'm hoping that for any- for everyone who's listening and watching, those theories give you an insight-

    12. JT

      Yes

    13. JS

      ... into how to increase your awareness about yourself and about the person opposite the table that you're dating or that you're seeing.

  7. 19:27 – 31:22

    It Begins With You

    1. JS

      And one of the biggest problems in relationships is that if someone's into us, we see it as their weakness, and if someone's not into us, we see it as their strength. And it goes back to where you start this book, is that it all begins with you.

    2. JT

      Yes.

    3. JS

      Because all of that is made up in our minds because we're saying, "Oh, well, if you're into me, then that means you must be weak because you're into me."

    4. JT

      Yes.

    5. JS

      If you're not into me, then that means you must be really special and important because you're not into me. And so again, it comes back to us. And so when you say it begins with you, how do we learn to acknowledge our strengths and accept our weaknesses? How do we learn to build our self-esteem at the same time as have self-awareness-

    6. JT

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... of our shortcomings? What does that look like?

    8. JT

      So it's difficult because when you're dealing with... 'Cause what you just said, like, if you're into me, then you must be weak. But if you're not into me, then you must be strong. That's all through the filter of low self-esteem-

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm

    10. JT

      ... and low self-worth. It's like, what's wrong with you that you are actually into me? It's not just about accountability. It's like, can you see how incredibly powerful you are, that you can be the change that you want to see in your life? This isn't about like, "Oh, you're the problem." It's really rarely that it's one person who's the problem in a relational dynamic. Yes, it does exist for very extreme cases, and I'm never gonna say that it's 50/50. You know, it really could be someone who's 70% of the, quote-unquote, problem and someone who's 30%. But if you can see that your relationship or your life is really the product of the choices that you make, and that it's not your fault if you didn't learn. Like, we're all trying to figure out what it really truly means to love someone. Philosophers have been talking about this for centuries, trying to understand what love is or is not, and especially if you were raised in a family where, like, your parents really kind of didn't love each other. You know, maybe they said they loved each other, but their actions would speak otherwise. So we're all really trying to do the best that we can do with the tools that we have, and really, this book is just about giving tools. So how do you build self-awareness and also have the self-esteem? You're never gonna raise your self-esteem by being too precious with yourself. You have to be willing to be brave and to look at the hard things, but also, at the same time, acknowledge how strong you are. Like, let's just start with that. Like, all the miles that you've walked, all the things that you've had to overcome, all the struggles, all the late nights that maybe you've had of being really anxious, and yet you still manage to go to sleep and get up the next morning and get ready for work or get your kids ready. It takes a tremendous amount of resilience just to be a human being.

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. JT

      So just acknowledge that, and at the same time, get really curious. We are very complex, weird creatures, you know? Like, we're all so nuanced and quirky. Don't think that you're so unique in your problems. Like, you are not... These, these things that you worry about, millions of people are having the same worry at the same time. That's actually not what makes you unique. Your problems don't make you unique.

    13. JS

      [laughs]

    14. JT

      The other beautiful things about you are actually what make you unique.

    15. JS

      That's beautiful.

    16. JT

      Yeah. The healing happens when you can acknowledge the ways in which maybe you've been standing in your own way and contributing to whatever it is that you don't want to have in life.

    17. JS

      What's your take on the mindset that a lot of people can naturally, again, I empathize with it too, can get stuck into, which is like, there's no good men left?

    18. JT

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      Or this idea that all the good men are either taken-

    20. JT

      Taken

    21. JS

      ... or, yeah. Or whatever.

    22. JT

      Or they don't exist anymore-

    23. JS

      Or they don't exist anymore

    24. JT

      ... and they're emotionally unavailable.

    25. JS

      Like, what happens when you've got into that place? And let's say it's been a valid experience you've had, like the last three guys you were talking to ghosted you.

    26. JT

      Yeah.

    27. JS

      Right? Maybe there was someone who you actually started dating, you were seeing them, and then you asked them an important question to you or shared something vulnerably, and now that person cut you out. So what do we do with the mindset? Because it could be valid, or it could be something you came up with. But either way, what do we do with that?

    28. JT

      I've worked with hundreds of couples. I work with people at all stages of their relationship life. But a lot of singles are kind of like, you know, kind of the loudest because they want love, and I understand that. And so I, the first thing I work on is their mindset and their belief system. And so yes, all the good ones are taken, and yeah, I want to validate everyone if- who've had really hard experiences. So I'm gonna tell a story-

    29. JS

      Please

    30. JT

      ... if that's okay.

  8. 31:22 – 41:06

    Find Other Things Attractive

    1. JS

      It's so interesting because we talk about the spark and chemistry so much, and it feels like we've got to talk about it for so many more years now to undo all the work that all the movies and that we grew up on did. Because I was thinking about this recently and, and I talked about it in my book, which was this idea of today the word going around is someone's aura or their charisma and this idea. And I'm like, I promise you, if you see someone's aura and you're attracted to it, so is everyone else in the room.

    2. JT

      [laughs] Totally.

    3. JS

      And so you're not special-

    4. JT

      [laughs]

    5. JS

      ... you don't have a special inclination towards that person, and chances are that that aura doesn't make them a good partner.

    6. JT

      Yes.

    7. JS

      And so you might be attracted when you walk in and you hear someone speak, and you're like, "Wow, they're so intelligent. They're an amazing speaker." That's not their character.

    8. JT

      No.

    9. JS

      You walk in and you see someone and they're dressed really well, and they've got all this swag and this charisma. That doesn't mean they're a good partner and have good character. You see someone who has an amazing job and makes all this money and drives a really great car. That's not their character. It doesn't make them a good partner. And so it's almost like everything we're attracted to about someone isn't what makes them a good partner-

    10. JT

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... and makes them good at a relationship. You keep saying the word character, and I agree with you.

    12. JT

      Conundrum.

    13. JS

      What is that? Because we're not even seeing that. It seems like we look at how people think, and we're attracted to that. We look at how people look, and we're attracted to that. We look at what people do and achieve, and we're attracted to that, and none of that makes someone a good partner.

    14. JT

      No.

    15. JS

      They're completely different things, right?

    16. JT

      Completely different things. Some of the most intelligent, charming, witty, beautiful people on the planet are also the most unhealthy and the ones who will harm you emotionally. I mean, it really is a cruel joke, isn't it? [laughs]

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JT

      I'm never gonna suggest that you date someone who you're not attracted to. I do think, though, and I would really be curious to hear your thoughts, Jay, like, I do think that with maturity, and maybe that's age and wisdom, and that looks different for everyone, that you do start to find other things attractive. Like for me personally, someone who's, like, really present with me and, like, a good listener, it's not a guarantee. If you're really present m- with me and a good listener, that doesn't mean I'm gonna be attracted to you. But if you're not present with me and you're not a good listener and you're not interested, that's definitely gonna be a turnoff.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. JT

      Whereas in the past, I would have felt that in my body. I would have felt that red flag and then intuition that would have felt off in my body, but I would have suppressed it. This is what... And I'm saying this about myself because I represent so many people who are, I know f- do this too, because I see it all the time. Let me just repress that because I want to be seductive. I want to lure them in. I want the validation. I think they're hot. You know, maybe there's something there. And I think with maturity it translates as, "Actually, no, like, that's actually a really big turnoff." When we start to have a clearer sense of self, and I don't believe that anyone is ever fully whole ever.

    21. JS

      Mm. I agree with you.

    22. JT

      I think that's, I think that's the journey, and I think that's the biggest lie. It's two whole people coming together. I mean, if that's really the truth, then we're all screwed, honestly. However, having no sense of self and no center is problematic, too. Life isn't binary. It's not black or white, but it's, we live in the gray area. But I do think that as we do get a sen- a clear s- understanding of ourselves, meaning what's important to us, you know, what are the things that we struggle with, can we find some sort of self-acceptance even in the midst of our greatest ambivalence towards the things that really we don't quite like about ourselves, can we start to actually s- hold ourselves in high regard even though we are keenly aware of our imperfections and the ways in which perhaps we're difficult?

    23. JS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    24. JT

      And to me, that's healing, is really being able to be familiar with the parts of ourselves that are good and maybe not so great and still accept ourselves and see that we have intrinsic value and that we deserve love. And I think that the more that we get an understanding of how to meet our needs better, understanding what our needs are, learning how to stand on our own two feet emotionally, for some people that's financially, whatever it is, then who we are attracted to changes.

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JT

      And the things that maybe we used to be attracted to we're not so attracted to. Or, like, I mean, I've definitely in the last couple years have been like, "Oh, my God," like, "that is the guy I totally would have gone for," and like, "Whoa." But I know that that is not right for me, so I kinda, I just switch it off.

    27. JS

      [laughs] Yeah.

    28. JT

      I don't indulge it. It's like I can actually compartmentalize and be like, "Yes, totally attracted to him, but I know that that would never be the right partner for me." So I don't even... They're just put in this box over here, and I don't pursue that.

    29. JS

      Yes.

    30. JT

      That does not mean that I can't be attracted to a really good person. It just means that we can be attracted to many different people for many different reasons, and the more that we heal and grow, the more we find qualities that are maybe not so, you know, charm-forward-

  9. 41:06 – 44:55

    Telling The Truth vs. Being Too Honest

    1. JT

      Yeah.

    2. JS

      Yeah. One of your hard truths that I loved is truth number five, you must speak up and tell the truth.

    3. JT

      Yes.

    4. JS

      And I was gonna ask you, what's the difference between telling the truth and being worried about being too honest-

    5. JT

      Yeah

    6. JS

      ... too early on? Because it's almost like we want to share our truth, and we want to be honest, but we don't want to scare them away.

    7. JT

      Yeah.

    8. JS

      We don't want to overstep.

    9. JT

      Yeah.

    10. JS

      We- it's, it's a fine balance, and I think it's hard for people. Like you said earlier, we also want them to like us, and-

    11. JT

      Yeah

    12. JS

      ... so what does that look like?

    13. JT

      For me, what I tell people, I think you should be as direct and honest from the very beginning, and I think that that's actually very attractive. That is different, however, than sharing your entire childhood pain to a stranger. So that's not the honesty I'm talking about. Someone has to kind of earn that information, and I don't think it's appropriate to share everything like that with a stranger. I think that has to go a little bit more slowly. There's a progression to getting to know someone. It's like you know someone, then you're, you're getting closer, and then you're sharing a little, then you're starting to open up and be vulnerable. You don't have to do that on the first date. But in terms of honesty of what it is that you really want, what it is that you really need, I think right from date one.

    14. JS

      I agree.

    15. JT

      This becomes more complicated in, when you're actually in a relationship.

    16. JS

      Mm.

    17. JT

      You know, I spent many years not really telling the truth. I've worked with many couples where there's a lot of love, but they weren't telling the truth. Fear of not being enough, fear of abandonment, fear of rejection. This is where rejection really is intense, when we already love the person. Fear that we might disappoint our partner.

    18. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JT

      Fear that they will never look at us the same way. Fear that they will resent it, all of that. And these are very real, but withholding the truth is what becomes the sickness in the relationship. And I always say, you don't just have the hard conversations for you or for your partner. You do it f- in service of love. You do it in service of the relationship. When two people in a relationship have the mindset, since we've been using that word, have the mindset of, "I'm going to protect our relationship," that's the priority. Sure, you're a priority. I'm a priority. But what we are building together, that's our baby. Like, that's the priority. And so if it means having to have really uncomfortable conversations, if it means having to say something instead of going into what's familiar, which is stuffing it down then becoming resentful and then hating your partner for it, it's like whenever we have a higher purpose, whenever we're, we, we feel like there's something that we're working towards, we will do what it takes. We'll climb that mountain, we'll transcend that ego, we'll transcend our fears, because we're doing it in service of something greater than ourselves. And in a relationship, your relationship has to be the thing that's greater than, than the two of you.

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. JT

      That's the encouragement that I want to have people to have to tell the truth, because it really sucks when you don't. It's very hurtful.

    22. JS

      I love that, and I think the challenge I've seen with that is our ego, going back to something you mentioned right at the beginning, that we want the other person to make us feel important. We want them to know that we don't need them, but we really do. Like, it becomes about... And I don't want to just say g- games, because I think everyone thinks they don't play games, so I don't want to use that language. But-

    23. JT

      But we all do [laughs]

    24. JS

      ... but we all do.

    25. JT

      Yeah.

    26. JS

      Yeah. Like, but there's just this feeling of like, I love what you just said. You said the most important thing is to protect the relationship, which is beyond both of you.

    27. JT

      Yes.

    28. JS

      But most of us can't look beyond ourselves, and we want the other person to look beyond themselves, but when they don't do it, we're like, "Well, then why will I do it?" And then it becomes this, you know, back and forth. So

  10. 44:55 – 53:09

    Repair Not Being Truthful In A Relationship

    1. JS

      if someone has withheld information or broken trust in that way, not been honest because of the fears you mentioned earlier, which I think were very well and clearly laid out, how do you repair that? What does that look like?

    2. JT

      Well, it depends on what the withholding or the lies are about. Sometimes it's you're withholding a truth of just how you feel.

    3. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JT

      And that's, like, not as much of a betrayal to the other as it is to oneself, which is I'm not, I'm not speaking up. I'm not telling you how this landed in my body for me-

    5. JS

      Mm

    6. JT

      ... and how angry I am at you. Because no one will lie to you more than you'll lie to yourself.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JT

      And so a big part of telling the truth begins with telling the truth to ourselves, because oftentimes we don't want to look at it. It, it's hard. We suppress it. We don't want to express it. But how do you repair from that? Well, it, again, it depends. Maybe you need a third party, understanding, you know, w- what exactly, what were the boundaries that were crossed, to what degree, how much can you find compassion for the person when they were withholding the truth? How much can you see that it actually wasn't personal, and that it was just something that they were doing because they were afraid? You repair with a lot of listening, a lot of communication, and possibly with a third party. But yeah, it's, it's not easy.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. JT

      And it depends on the degree of, again, if, if it's actually a betrayal or... It's, this is hard, but we have to learn to not take so many things so personally because oftentimes, and I'm not talking about infidelity and things that are really detrimental to the sanctity of a relationship, but oftentimes people are doing that and they just were too afraid. It's like, "Well, why didn't you tell me how you feel? You have to tell me how you feel." And yes, you kind of do, and you have every right to feel sort of like a mini betrayal from that. Like, how can I, how can I show up for you? How can I be in this relationship if you don't tell me how you feel? And that's very valid. But if the other person can say, "You're right. I was afraid. This is what I was afraid of," and then two people are really starting to tell the truth, and now we're really getting into the deep stuff and getting vulnerable.

    11. JS

      We also expect the other person now to change their habit the next day. So we're waiting for the one therapy session after which our partner will be transformed. We're waiting for-

    12. JT

      [laughs] Totally

    13. JS

      ... the one coaching session after which our partner will be the person that they promised to be, and it almost feels like we're, we just are looking for this moment where they're gonna get it, and the penny's gonna drop, and they're gonna be like this new, profound individual, and that's just not reality.

    14. JT

      No.

    15. JS

      Like, people are gonna change, if they want to, over a number of years.

    16. JT

      Yes.

    17. JS

      And the key part of that is if they want to, in a number of years.

    18. JT

      And a number of years. Yeah.

    19. JS

      And we're so focused on, no, they have to change, they have to change, they have to change.

    20. JT

      But it begins with you because there's something that has to change in you as well. Because if there's something going on in the dynamic and you love this person, and it's a good relationship otherwise, you are contributing in some way, whether you know it or not, to them not feeling comfortable to telling the truth. Like, people come, they come to a couples counseling or couples therapy, they sit down, and inevitably every... th- both people are thinking, "Fix the other person so that I can be-

    21. JS

      Yeah

    22. JT

      ... okay in this relationship."

    23. JS

      Yep.

    24. JT

      When really it's when we change ourselves, we actually can influence the relationship and the change in the other. Not always, but a lot of the times we can. If you have the belief they just need to change and be fixed, and we're gonna be okay, you are in for a run for your money because that's actually not true. Like, maybe they do have to change more than you, but there are things that you need to change in this dynamic as well.

    25. JS

      Yeah, we really convince ourselves that.

    26. JT

      We do.

    27. JS

      We really convince our-

    28. JT

      That's another lie we tell ourselves.

    29. JS

      Yeah.

    30. JT

      Yeah.

  11. 53:09 – 58:11

    Listen to Your Gut

    1. JS

      we've got so disconnected, going back to It Begins With You, it's just we've got so disconnected from knowing ourselves and knowing what's right for us and what's good for us.

    2. JT

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      I feel like the amount of people that are just constantly seeking advice from anyone and everyone in their life-

    4. JT

      And not listening to themselves

    5. JS

      ... and not listening to themselves.

    6. JT

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      And you have one text thread over here with like nine girlfriends, and then you have, you post it on Instagram and say, "I'm dealing with this" on my stories just to your private friends, and then you reach out to your family and your parents. And it's like you're talking to like 27 non-experts about something in your life, and no wonder you're confused, because everyone has their own opinion. Someone saying, "Give them another chance," someone saying, "Oh, leave them," someone ... You know? And, and you've just got these, you've also got actions to take without understanding.

    8. JT

      Yes.

    9. JS

      And, and I wanted to ask you, if there is no the one, how do you know who to focus on? How do you know who to kind of make it work with?

    10. JT

      Number one, the person who treats you well. And that doesn't mean ... I think that, you know, when we're in a relationship for long enough, we will unconsciously hurt each other's feelings, and sometimes we will, even the most mindful of us will, will behave or say something or do something that's not filled with a lot of mindfulness, you know, we'll act unconsciously. But fundamentally, you want the person who treats you well, who respects you, who you feel good around, you feel like you can safely express an opinion, you feel like you can be yourself with them. That's so important.

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JT

      I think that is probably one of the most-

    13. JS

      I agree

    14. JT

      ... underrated criteria for choosing a partner, is can you really be yourself with them? I'm not talking about be your bad self, your lower self with them, but can you actually be who you are? Are you, do you feel comfortable in your skin when you're with this person, or do you have to hide- Parts of yourself so that they can accept you.

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. JT

      So I think that's the most important thing. And so someone with whom you share values, someone with whom ... Can you agree on what a life well-lived is?

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. JT

      Because you can have, there can be a wonderful connection with someone, but to them, they want to live a nomadic lifestyle, and you're like, "No, no, no, I want to root and have children." Like, you're, it's not gonna work. You might have a great love affair-

    19. JS

      Mm

    20. JT

      ... but you're never gonna work long term. So agreeing on what a life well-lived is. There's some compatibility in just in terms of core values. I think that's incredibly important, because when in the duration of your relationship things get really hard, life happens, family members die, maybe illness happens, money, whatever it is, it's your values. It's not your sex life, it's your values, like, as, as you were saying, that there's not attraction or chemistry. It's your values that are gonna really keep you together. And I think it's, you know, that person who if you had to be stranded on a desert island, like, that would be the person you'd want to choose.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JT

      And that's how you know. And all their little eccentricities that annoy you, and, like, maybe they're not as neat in the kitchen as you would like, or maybe they're not exactly the height, or, you know, maybe they've got some stuff that, like, you can go down a list and be like, "That's not my preference," those are the things you need to tolerate and accept. Because they have the other things of values. You enjoy being touched by them. You enjoy kissing them. Like, there's attraction there. You agree on what a life well-lived is, and you really feel comfortable being who you are when you're with them.

    23. JS

      Does the one that got away actually exist?

    24. JT

      I don't know. I think that's a story that people tell themselves.

    25. JS

      Why do we do that?

    26. JT

      What I've seen is we've had some, made some poor choices, and so that we look back at that person, and we romanticize them and pedestal them and actually see them maybe better than what they were, better for us, and so we get into our heads, and we romanticize them.

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. JT

      So I'm not quite sure. What I do know for sure is that if you tell yourself that story, well, then, you're just, like, sealing your fate, that there's just no one else out there for you. And to me, that's part of the whole romanticism theory that keeps us very stuck and s- and suffering.

    29. JS

      I agree. Yeah.

    30. JT

      Yeah.

  12. 58:11 – 1:01:03

    It's All In Your Head

    1. JS

      unhealthy belief. You have a beautiful quote in the book where you say, "Stay in your head and your relationship is dead."

    2. JT

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JS

      And I think that's partly it, that we stay in our head in relationships in a lot of ways. Some of them can be negative thoughts. Some of them can be doubts. Some of them can be questions. Some of them can be, you know, ruminating on the past.

    4. JT

      Yes.

    5. JS

      Uh, how do we, how do we get out of our heads and get out of those repetitive thoughts?

    6. JT

      Yeah, I love talking about this, 'cause I'm someone, I, I, I tend to lean sort of intellectual, and when I am not centered, I lean t- as a lot of people do, and a lot of women these days, anxious. So I can get, like, very, like, ruminating and analytical and all that. So I feel very equipped. And also, I, when I work with so many people, I mean, the stories that they tell themselves about themselves and about their partner that's not rooted in the truth because they're not communicating. I mean, it's the stories in our heads that ruin relationships. So how do we get out of our heads? Well, we start telling the truth, and we start communicating. Like, that's, like, the low-hanging fruit. Like, build enough self-awareness, and this takes practice, where you can say, "Oh, I'm in my head right now. I am getting lost in a story right now." Because it's a habit, and some people really have a bad habit of getting lost in such a story about another person, and they get themselves so worked up. And so what you have to do is to keep practicing, "Oh, that's that storyteller in me right now. That's that storyteller. Maybe something else is true. Could something else be true? Let me communicate." Getting out of our heads is also getting in our bodies, so exercise, movement, breathwork, going for a long walk, having a long healing conversation with a friend, uh, doing something where you're social. If we're too much in isolation, and we're spending too much time with ourselves, we're too much in our heads. So it's a really beautiful strategy to get out of our heads when we see a friend or two, or we even go to something that we're invited to and just ... Because then our attention is outwardly focused. Like right now, our attention is outwardly focused. Yes, we have to go a little inward to kind of think, you have to go inward to kind of think of the question, right? I have to go a little bit inward to kind of give you an answer. But we're very, because we're having this, like, conversation, it's just you and me, and the lights are on us, and the cameras are rolling, we're outward focused. And when we're alone, everything is so inward focused. So moving our bodies is always the easiest, fastest way to get out of our heads. It's really, and it's daily movement. It's like, "Oh, I'm in my head. I'm gonna go for a walk. Oh, I'm in a head, uh, in my head. Maybe I have to take a cold shower. Get out of this state. Maybe I have to talk to someone." But it starts with the awareness of, you know, my mind, all of our minds can be, become battlefields. Our mind can be a beautiful thing-

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm

    8. JT

      ... but if we don't stand guard of our mind, we are gonna be in serious trouble, and w- no one is invulnerable to that.

    9. JS

      As we're talking

  13. 1:01:03 – 1:05:28

    Reflect With Your Partner

    1. JS

      about it, one thing that came to my mind was just how we're really focused on starting things as humans, and we're good at reacting to when things end. And we're really complacent and ignorant in the middle.

    2. JT

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      Right? We've talked a lot today about dating, and then we're talking about when things go wrong, and maintenance is not something we find interesting.

    4. JT

      [laughs] Exactly.

    5. JS

      Right? It's not-

    6. JT

      So true. [laughs]

    7. JS

      Yeah, it's just not something as humans that we ... Like maintaining-

    8. JT

      Yeah

    9. JS

      ... a home.

    10. JT

      Yeah.

    11. JS

      Like, building a home, designing a home, that's cool.

    12. JT

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      Uh, when you, if you leave something and you're finding something new, that's, that's interesting. It's something to pay attention to.

    14. JT

      Sure.

    15. JS

      But maintenance is something that we, we ignore so much, and I was thinking if you could recommend a reflection someone could do with their partner right now, whether they're stuck or ... Well, maybe it's like, what if something feels almost right but not fully right, as in there's nothing wrong?

    16. JT

      Uh-huh.

    17. JS

      What do you do in that situation?

    18. JT

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      Because then I think a lot of people find themselves there, where it's like they're in that maintenance phase.

    20. JT

      Yeah, a little stuck.

    21. JS

      Where it's like you're not getting married, you're not, you know, you're not having the big moment, and you're not, you're not kind of ending it. Like, there's nothing wrong.

    22. JT

      Yeah. But you're just kind of, like, coasting-

    23. JS

      Yeah

    24. JT

      ... maybe borderline a little bit bored or complacent, yeah. So, like, let's say this couple has kids. [laughs] Stop making your kids the only focus of your life. You have to ... Your children actually want you to focus on each other. That's what's gonna be really good. Like, you are benefiting your children's mental health and lives when they, when you are connecting with each other, so that's important. Shake things up a little bit, whether that's individually or together. Go on a date, try something new. D- uh, bring some novelty, whether that's in the bedroom or completely outside of the bedroom. Take some time to really connect with each other. Maybe it's sitting down and having a meal and just being like, "Okay, we're gonna put the phones away, and we're gonna really connect, and maybe we're gonna talk about something a little bit deeper today."

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JT

      I mean, I went to, um, I had dinner over at a friend's last night, and it was so wonderful. Like, we just went into really deep stuff. I mean, also sprinkled in with a little fun and silly stuff, but we just went into very deep stuff, and it's like, "Wow, this is so refreshing to be around people where you can be vulnerable and open." And I think couples kind of ... You don't want to be doing that all the time 'cause you need a little levity. So this is a interesting thing. As a couple, maybe you have to do a temperature check. Like, do we need a little bit of levity? Like, do we need a little bit of lightness? Have we been too bogged down with the routines? Are we talking about the relationship too much and we need to have, like, some fun? Then do something new. Do something fun. Do something that you would have done in the first three months of your relationship few years in, and watch the change happen in your relationship, and build it into your weekly routine, or at least your monthly routine. If your relationship is kind of feeling, you're feeling a little dis- disconnected, right? So it's not the lack of levity, but there's a lack of connection. Get vulnerable. Maybe, maybe connect in the bedroom or outside of the bedroom. Have, have a real heart-to-heart. Maybe do something new that's also very bonding. Um, touch each other, and I'm not even talking in a, in a sexual way, but are you touching each other? Like, do you put a hand on the leg or on the shoulder? Are you being present with each other? Again, this is the part that's mindfulness, and it really, sometimes it's so little that has a huge ripple effect, and it's just a matter of, oh, this is what we need, and one of you take the leadership role in that, in that way. Be like, "Okay, let's do this. I really want to do this." It shouldn't be framed as, like, "Oh, you know, we need this. Otherwise..." It's just like, "I would really love this. Wouldn't this be s- wouldn't this be so lovely if..." And sometimes it's just, let me change something in me. Maybe it's not even a conversation with your partner. It's how you're showing up. Maybe you've grown a little complacent towards the relationship, towards your life, towards anything. Maybe you need to shake things up a little bit inside yourself and bring a little bit more of the part of you, because we all have so many different parts to our psyche and our personality. Maybe bring a little bit more of what you brought in the beginning of the relationship now, and that kind of always does the trick-

    27. JS

      Absolutely

    28. JT

      ... if people are willing.

  14. 1:05:28 – 1:08:06

    Breakup Self-Reflection Exercises

    1. JS

      Switching from going back to the beginning of the relationship, looking at the end of a relationship-

    2. JT

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... if someone's broken up with you, what's the best self-reflection exercise that you'd recommend to someone if someone's just broken up with them?

    4. JT

      Well, if they're just in the shock and the pain of just broken up-

    5. JS

      After the, yeah

    6. JT

      ... yeah, I would, yeah, I would say after that because in the beginning it's more just like, "How can I survive, and who's gonna support me," right? But when you're sort of out of that initial shock of, of pain, you're still hurt and you're still sad, but you're ready to self-reflect, one of the hardest things to do, yet most important things to do, and maybe you'll never 100% get clear, is how did I contribute to whatever did not work?

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JT

      And how did they contribute? It's so hard not to go into the blame game and just blame them for everything and blame ourselves for anything, but true self-reflection when it comes to the end of a relationship is, can I have some clarity around some of the patterns that I have that have contributed to whatever didn't work, and can I get clear about what they did-

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm

    10. JT

      ... and what their patterns were that really didn't work?

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JT

      And that's a process, and it's a journey of self-reflection, but I think that is absolutely important. So start with, what are some of the ways in which maybe I have contributed to what didn't work? Is there, is there something in my self-esteem that needs to be worked on? Is there something that I learned from childhood that maybe isn't working?

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. JT

      And then to add to that is, what did I contribute that really worked? What are my strengths in relationship? 'Cause you have to reflect on that, too. How was I really, really loving? Maybe I was too loving to a fault, but- I'm still loving

    15. JS

      Mm

    16. JT

      ... you know, and I'd rather be too loving to a fault than not loving at all, you know? So those are some of the questions that we need to ask ourselves, and these are hard. You know, I've gone through tremendous heartbreak, and just having to go through that, but I was so hellbent on I don't want to- this to ever happen again, so what do I have to do? And look, accountability in a relationship, wherever the relationship is, in the beginning, middle, or end, is the most important thing. If you cannot take responsibility for being another human being in this dynamic, then you are essentially a nightmare to be in a relationship with. And I s- I hate to be so blunt, but it's true. Accountability is everything. And it's not about taking all the blame, but we have to be able to own our stuff.

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. JT

      And when two people are doing that, I really think that there's tremendous healing that can happen between two people if they're

  15. 1:08:06 – 1:12:40

    Jillian Turecki on Final 5

    1. JT

      willing to do that.

    2. JS

      Jillian, thank you so much for your insights today.

    3. JT

      Thank you.

    4. JS

      It's been, uh, really wonderful having this back and forth with you of just kind of thinking about all the different iterations, moments, phases of a relationship. And we end every episode of On Purpose with a Final Five-

    5. JT

      Yes

    6. JS

      ... or a Fast Five. Every question has to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

    7. JT

      Okay.

    8. JS

      So Jillian Turecki, these are your Fast Five. Uh, the first question is what is the best love advice you've ever heard or received?

    9. JT

      No one is perfect. Figure out what you can tolerate-

    10. JS

      Mm

    11. JT

      ... and what you can't tolerate.

    12. JS

      I like that. Uh, second question is what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received?

    13. JT

      Mm. You don't have to lean on your husband when you're going through a miscarriage. Us- just lean on your mother and your sister. That was the worst advice that I got from a therapist.

    14. JS

      Someone said that to you?

    15. JT

      Yeah, a therapist. He said that to me.

    16. JS

      Wow.

    17. JT

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JS

      Let's, uh, uh, take a detour to focus on that a little bit.

    19. JT

      Yeah.

    20. JS

      How did that feel?

    21. JT

      Very confusing. I understand when you're in a relationship that your partner should not be your only confidant, that it's really important to have some community or other people around you that you go to. Like, you don't have to go to your partner for every single thing. You ought to have other sources. But if you're going through a miscarriage and you can't lean on your partner, to me that sounds insane. But I think her intention was don't lean on him for everything.

    22. JS

      Sure.

    23. JT

      And so I took that on as, "Oh my God, you know, I'm being too dependent or too p- doing, being too codependent." And it was very confusing, and it was only later on when I started to do this work where I recognized that that was the worst piece of advice I've ever received ever from anyone. And I've-

    24. JS

      Especially in that situation

    25. JT

      ... Especially in that situation, and I could not disagree with it more. That's exactly who you should be leaning on, and it's exactly who you should feel safe leaning on.

    26. JS

      Question number three, one of your hard truths is, number eight, no one is coming to save you. Uh, what do you do?

    27. JT

      Save yourself, and choose someone who's going to have your back while you do that.

    28. JS

      The right answer. And, uh, question number four, truth number nine, you say you must make peace with your parents.

    29. JT

      Mm.

    30. JS

      Why is that so important?

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