Dave Ramsey's SECRET TO WEALTH & RICHES Will Leave You SPEECHLESS! | Jay Shetty

Dave Ramsey 0:00 Everybody's trying to fix their finances with a math formula, and y- if you were doing math, you wouldn't be in credit card debt.

Jay Shetty 0:06 [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, you know that I'm on a mission to serve you and help you build incredible lives 360 degrees, and one of those things is to focus on areas where I can bring in experts who have incredible insight, research, and years of experience so that I can share that with you. And this person is someone who I've followed for a long time. He's someone that I've wanted to have on the show for a long time. I feel extremely honored and grateful to introduce our guest today, who is none other than Dave Ramsey, an eight-time number one national best-selling author, personal finance expert, and host of The Ramsey Show, heard by more than 23 million listeners each week. If you have not subscribed already, make sure you do. He's appeared on Good Morning America, CBS Mornings, Today Show, Fox News, CNN, Fox Business, and many more. Since 1992, Dave has helped people regain control of their money, build wealth, and enhance their lives. He also serves as the CEO for the company Ramsey Solutions. Welcome to the show, Dave Ramsey, and today we're talking about his new book, Baby Steps Millionaires, which I highly recommend you go and grab a copy of. We'll have the link to order it in the caption and in the comments. Dave, welcome to the show.

Dave Ramsey 1:44 Wow, I'm on The Jay Shetty Show. This is awesome, man.

Jay Shetty 1:47 [laughs]

Dave Ramsey 1:48 You're a big deal. Thank you for having me.

Jay Shetty 1:50 It's the other way around for me. To me, you're the big deal, and so I feel really grateful that you said yes. And, you know, for me, supporting my community, having great financial health is a really important part of my mission, and who better to go to than you? So, you know, I'm really grateful that I get to connect my community with you. I'm sure many of them are already listeners anyway. But Dave, you know, let's, let's start learning a bit more about

Jay Shetty 2:16 you and your journey. I wanna hear about when Dave wasn't the financial expert that he is. Like, what were your mindsets? What was your relationship like with money when it wasn't where it is today?

Dave Ramsey 2:30 I grew up in a household of entrepreneurs, and so they taught us, uh, that you can do it, that, that all you've gotta do is leave the cave, kill something, and drag it home. I mean, there's, that you can go out there and, and, and make something in this world, and that the free enterprise system is not broken. And, uh, it's tough, it's hard, but you can do it. And so, uh, I believed that, and I still believe it. And, uh, I, I went and got a, my real estate license when I turned 18, and when w- when I graduated from college, I started buying and selling real estate. And starting from nothing, I got rich, at least by a kid from Antioch, Tennessee standards. I ended up with about $4 million worth of real estate and a little over a $2 million, uh, net- or a little over a million dollar net worth. I was making a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year. Now, that's 1982. Uh, 20,000 bucks a month from the neighborhood I grew up in, that's called rich. And so, uh, we were having a blast. But I'd borrowed too much money, and the short version of the story is the bank got sold to another bank. They called our notes. We, we were doing Flip This House before, uh, Chip and Joanna were born. And so [laughs] you know, we, uh, bank called our notes, and we spent the next two and a half years of our life losing everything we owned. We were sued and foreclosed on, and with a brand-new baby and a marriage hanging on by a thread, we had the opportunity to start over after bankruptcy, and it was, um, it was brutal. It was brutal. It was gut-wrenching. It was life-defining. Um, and it was, um, at the time, the worst thing that had ever happened to me at all, the worst trauma. Uh, the, to not be able to keep your word, to have your integrity just crushed by your stupidity, and, um, it was, uh... I come from an honor culture, and it's just, uh, it's a horrible thing. And so obviously now, 30 years later, I realize it's the best thing that ever happened to me, because I learned a whole new way of looking at money. Uh, I realized that borrowing money was a bad plan, and, uh, we've since been able to put lots of data to that and millions of lives to that idea, that the idea of if you don't have any payments, you've got money, and, uh, you can build some wealth. And so we began a debt-free life at, uh, 28 years old, and, uh, I'm 62. So, um, it's worked out pretty well.

Jay Shetty 4:38 That's incredible, Dave. I mean, you, as you said, you've been talking to people about their money for 30 years on The Ramsey Show. You've given, you know, helped so many people over those decades. Are you hearing new financial problems today, or is it the same ones repeated over and over again? Is there a new challenge, a new issue, or are we stuck in a similar mindset over the last three decades?

Dave Ramsey 5:05 There's the, uh, problem, and then there's the symptom. Uh, the symptoms are always new. Uh, you know, uh, uh, Bitcoin, a get rich, uh, opportunity, right? That's a new symptom. Uh, you know, there, there's been all kinds of symptoms pop up over the years that are different. Uh, there was a period of time where credit card debt was the most awful thing on the planet. Then there was a period of time where student loans are the most awful thing on the planet, and, uh, you know, the, the thing that is holding down the middle class, the thing that's crushing families and these kinds of things. And, uh, then there was a period of time in 2008 when the m- mortgages were failing and the real estate market failed. And so we've seen all these things, but they're basically, those are all symptoms. A- and underlying all of that, a- again, very similar to, to your insights, uh, is the idea that principles have been violated. When you violate principles, you're going to get these symptoms. They'll have all kinds of different colors and looks to them, but they're the same root cause

Jay Shetty 6:05 Dave, you know, you've talked about this a lot, uh, through your book, through your work, through a number of your books about how we don't really get educated on these ideas in school, and you must find it shocking that across 30 years that hasn't massively changed.

Jay Shetty 6:26 Uh, what is it that you think we're missing out on at school? What are the key principles, as you were mentioning, that you need to learn at school or that you need to learn to start so that you can have a healthy relationship with your finances and money?

Dave Ramsey 6:40 Well, there's a level of mythology that has been spread about money in our culture that, uh, was spread with an agenda, frankly. It was all, uh, i- if I was a bank, I would teach everyone that they needed a credit score, and the reason I would teach them they need a credit score and the way to get a credit score is to borrow money from me s- and pay it back to me so that you can raise your score so you can borrow money from me so you can pay it back to me so you can raise your score so you can borrow money from me so you can pay it back to me so you can raise your score. It's a great plan if you're a bank. And, uh, so but then the... It, it was put out there that now the FICO score is, uh, like biblical truth or something, and it's not. [laughs] It was a, it's a banking program to get people to borrow money. But now, a- and so what's happened with some financial literacy programs in schools is they're, they're gonna teach you to build your FICO score because that's been accepted now as norm rather than as, rather than actual fa- Well, it's accepted as fact even though it's not a fact. And so what we've done i- is we have-- I mean, our antidote would be to say, "Okay, we're gonna teach people to live on a budget and how to do a budget. We're gonna teach them to live on less than they make," a concept Congress can't grasp. "We're gonna teach them to, uh, uh, to be generous, outlandishly generous, um, and we're gonna teach them to save and invest and the power of compound interest." And these things are agnostic to the banking community. Uh, a- and so we don't have to infiltrate the lending community and the people that, the pieces of the financial industry that have an agenda into this curriculum. But basically, a lot of teachers have been indoctrinated by the culture that this is the way you have to live. You're always gonna have a car payment. You have to have a credit card. You're, uh, you know, you can't be a student without a student loan. And then they bring that into the classroom because they personally have been, uh, taught this. But, uh, when you back it out and say, "Well, the teaching is with an agenda," then you have to stop and go, "Eh, there's a villain in this story." And so i- instead we need to be, uh, teaching the basic premise of common sense. And the good news is we've actually gotten our high school curriculum in about 48% of the high schools in America so far. So we're waking up a few people here and there. We're causing a bit of a ruckus. But, um, uh, certainly the banks and those kinds of folks are, are not happy about that 'cause we're teaching people not to borrow money.

Jay Shetty 9:03 I actually had that experience. So I grew up in a house where my parents never wanted us to be in debt, so we-- I didn't even know what a credit card was, quite frankly, growing up, and we only ever used debit cards. And so when I moved to the United States from London and I went to buy a car, they, they wouldn't give it to me because I didn't have a credit score. Now, I had enough money to buy that car maybe 10, 20 times if I wanted to, but they wouldn't let me because I didn't have the credit score. And so I had to get into this habit of building up that credit score in the same way, and that was massively different for me because I'd just never been in that mindset. So when you say that, it, it resonates with me very strongly because I just couldn't imagine ever feeling like I owed people or that I was buying things with money that wasn't mine, uh, because of the way I'd been raised around it. I mean,

Jay Shetty 9:51 what's the craziest financial situation that you've ever heard on this show? Like, what's, what's something [laughs] that really blows your mind and you go, "Even this is crazy for Dave Ramsey"?

Dave Ramsey 10:02 The line that we always use, and it's true, is I haven't borrowed money in 30 years, so I, I don't have a credit score. Mine's undeterminable or zero. Uh, a- and so the joke is, and it's, it's the truth, I-- if I go down to our local apartment complex and there's a sweet little 26-year-old, uh, apartment manager that is-- corporate has told her what to do and they ha- they require a FICO score to rent, I can't rent an apartment there. Now, I'm a multimillionaire. I can write a check and buy the complex, but I can't rent an apartment there. Now, that's, that's just asinine. That's just ridiculous. A- and so that, that illustrates the absurdity of this. As far as the crazy stuff on the show, oh, my goodness. I mean, we do, we do three hours a day for 20, for 30 years now. I mean, it, it's-- we've had crazy on, on parade at times. And y- the thing I have to try to do is laugh 'cause I've done so many stupid things. I've got a PhD in DUMB. When somebody calls with something stupid, we just laugh together. I mean, I'm not shaming them. But oh, my gosh, I mean, people with just-- I mean, I had a guy with a million dollars in credit card debt one time. Uh, how do you do that? I mean, that, that was like a full-time job to pull that off.

Jay Shetty 11:11 [laughs]

Dave Ramsey 11:12 And we've had lots of people with, with hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt. And, um, they just get themselves in all kinds of stuff. And so, you know, you get stupid on steroids and it just explodes. It gets exponential. And, and it's really, you know, it, it's, it's crazy humorous 'cause it's so absurd, but, you know, also while you're talking to them, it's just sad 'cause they're completely trapped. And how am I gonna get this, uh, this young dentist that's in one of our documentaries that's got a million in student loan debt, and how am I gonna h- how am I gonna help him get out of that? Oh, it's just heartbreaking.

Jay Shetty 11:47 Yeah, I mean, those stories, as you said, like, I love that you create this open, welcoming space for people to feel heard, feel seen. And like you said, we've, we've all made mistakes. Uh, but then at the same time, I really value how you give very specific strategic advice for people to get out of those places. Now, your new book, uh, Baby Steps Millionaire, like- What I really love about and what I want to do on this podcast is I want to kind of touch on each of the chapters because whenever someone has a book out, and I, I deeply value books, books have changed my life. I believe they're absolutely transformative.

Dave Ramsey 12:20 Me too.

Jay Shetty 12:20 They, they start incredible journeys. Uh, I believe yours is going to do this for so many people, it already has. But

Jay Shetty 12:27 with this book, your first chapter is called Can Anyone Be a Millionaire? And I think a lot of people grow up with the feeling that they will never be one, they're not planning for that, and they don't even think about that. I would say that I grew up with that mindset too, uh, because of the family that I was raised in and the people I was raised around. Tell us a bit about that question and why you take the approach you do to that- answering that question.

Dave Ramsey 12:53 Well, i- it's an important place to start because it's one of the reasons we wrote the book. Um, we, we've got a group of people in America, I call them hope stealers, who are saying that it's impossible to win now. It's impossible to win. There's too many systemic problems. There's too many things that are broken in the culture and in the economy that the, the little m- it's the ultimate line, the little man can't get ahead thing. A- and yet, I kept running into millionaires everywhere who were first generation. They started with nothing. They did not inherit their money. A- and then I started running into them that have followed our baby steps, that's why we named it Baby Steps Millionaires, that became millionaires. And so I thought, I've got this, all this data and anecdotal evidence, both on one side that it is possible, and then I've got these hope stealers out here telling people they can't do it and stealing their hope. A- and so I thought, well, you know, the first thing we got to do is we have to fix that because it's the old Henry Ford line, if you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right. A- and so, uh, you know, you, you have to, a- a- and y- I, I'm... If I think I can be in the NBA, I'm wrong. I can't, okay? I, there's not a chance. I don't have the physical skills. I'm an old guy with a potbelly. It's not happening, right? So that's ridiculous. But, but when it comes to, over time, can I have a successful marriage, even though maybe in your past there's not one in your family tree. Uh, o- over time, can I raise good kids, even though in most of your family tree, no one turns out. Can you break that chain? A- and if you don't believe you can, you won't take the steps to do the hard work to be successful in that area, that compartment, th- department of your life. And, and money's no exception to that. And money's particularly weird in the spiritual, in that, uh, i- in this area of belief, uh, because it, it just, it will run from you. You can't catch it, uh, you know, i- if you don't believe. Uh, because you won't do the, you won't do the, the sacrificial things. You won't live like no one else so that later you can live and give like no one else. There's no reason a farmer would ever go out and toil in the sun and pla- a- and plow the field and get the stumps out and the rocks out a- and then put corn in the ground if he didn't think corn was gonna come up after he did that. That would be absurd. Only a crazy person would do something that they don't think is gonna turn out. And so you have to believe first. And so what we try to do is we try to bring in emotional behavior, uh, data of other people, and math, and any kind of a lens I can get you to look through to make you believe that you can do it. I know you can do it, but I've got to convince you c- you can do it before we can move into the tactical steps.

Jay Shetty 15:43 Yeah, and what are some of those,

Jay Shetty 15:45 what would you say are the mindsets th- or the traps that keep people broke where you are having to convince people that they can? What are those things that keep us in that mindset?

Dave Ramsey 15:56 I think we become, number one, who we hang around with. Uh, there's not any question about that. So you have to be careful. Uh, and I'm not talking about being snobbish to someone. We're ni- I'm nice to anybody. I'll talk to anybody about any... I'm, I'm happy. Uh, but, but I'm talking about your crew, the people that are your inner circle. Who do you hang with? Y- your income is going to approximate theirs over time. Uh, your physical condition, if they, if they're all overweight, you're gonna be overweight. If they ta- if they take care of their bodies, you're gonna take care of your body. If they have good marriages, you're gonna have a good marr- you, you're going to become who you hang around with. You're even gonna have an accent like they do, you know? A- and, uh, you're gonna read the books that they read. A- and so you, number one, you need to get yourself in a community of people who are achievers, who believe it can be done, who understand it's tough and will encourage you when y- you're having a hard one. I mean, some of us have had a hard couple years here. A, a lot of us have, you know? And, and so you got to have guys and gals in your corner that say, "Go, f- champ, you got this. You can do it. I'm, I got your back, man." A- a- and, and so that's so much different than growing up in a neighborhood where my parents were saying, "You can do this," but a lot of the kids I ran around with, their parents were saying, "Well, the little man can't get ahead. You're always gonna have a car payment. You're stuck. People like us, you know, people that have a Southern accent, they're hillbillies and rednecks, we, we don't get ahead. We just, we, we just, we just, uh, you know, give the middle finger salute to the man and we move on." A- and you can do that from any racial background, any cultural background. There, there's a group of people that, that declare themselves stuck. Then there's also a group of people within that same community, in that same tribe, it's a smaller group, that declare that it's possible to be free. It's possible to prosper. It's possible. And it's victims or victors. A- and, uh, the neat thing is that once you begin to kind of get that inside of you, anyone can just make that choice. [claps hands] I decide, and here we go.

Jay Shetty 17:58 Yeah. I, I think you're spot on. I think you're absolutely right, and, you know, I, I know what that feels like because that's the culture I grew up in. I, I grew up around that culture that didn't believe and that often saw money as evil, or we always believed that people who had money must have done something sketchy to get it, or they weren't-

Dave Ramsey 18:16 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 18:17 ... really living a life of integrity. And so that was the mindset that was built up for a long, long time that had to be massively unlearned and unraveled, and I wish I had you at that time. I, I didn't. Uh, but, you know, I'm g- I'm glad that we do today. I think you mentioned spiritual and belief, and what I really appreciated about the book is that the book is filled with knowledge about how to handle your finances, but at the same time, it has Bible verses that can enlighten

Jay Shetty 18:42 the readers too. And I wanted to ask you that why did you think it was important to talk about the Bible and, you know, the word of God as well as talking about finances? Like, what was the reasoning behind that? I was fascinated by that.

Dave Ramsey 18:54 Yeah, that's always a, uh, sometimes it's off-putting for some folks, uh, obviously. Uh, and, and so I try not to be, uh, over the top. It's not a, a Christian manual on finance. Uh, but the, the books of wisdom in particular, the Proverbs, uh, it, it, it can, can be applied regardless of your faith, uh, regardless of your background or your belief system. Uh, wisdom's wisdom. If Ben Franklin said something, it, you know, it's okay. You, you can, you can kind of look at that and think that's possible, right? And he's not in the Bible, but I mean-

Jay Shetty 19:25 [laughs]

Dave Ramsey 19:25 ... you see what I'm saying. So, uh, and what... But what we've discovered about personal finance, and I discovered this years and years ago the hard way, I kept... When I was doing counseling and coaching with people f- the, when I very first started, I would go in and fix all of their budget and negotiate with their creditors a set of payments that would fit within their income, and I, and they were about to file bankruptcy, but we, we stopped their foreclosure. We got them on a plan with their bank. It w- right on the edge. We pulled them back from the edge and said, "Okay, now work this plan." And then I would see them six weeks later and say, "How's the plan going?" "We filed bankruptcy." What? I did 90 hours of work to get that to where it would do. What do you mean you filed bankruptcy? And I started realizing it wasn't math. Math wasn't the problem.

Jay Shetty 20:10 Mm.

Dave Ramsey 20:10 The problem with my money is the guy I shave with.

Jay Shetty 20:14 Mm.

Dave Ramsey 20:15 If I can get that guy to behave, he can be skinny and rich.

Jay Shetty 20:18 Mm.

Dave Ramsey 20:18 Oh my gosh, he's a problem. And so we start realizing personal finance is 80% behavior, only 20% head knowledge, and behavior is a spiritual thing. I'm an Evangelical Christian, so for me, I immediately gravitate to the Bible as a, uh, as a spiritual instruction, and there's 2,500 scriptures dealing with money. So whether you're a, a Christian or not, doesn't matter to me. W- the reason I'm t- bringing that up is, it, it's an indication of this is a set of behaviors and a, a set of views, a set of beliefs, a spiritual walk that influences your behavior, and your behavior creates your outcome. It's everybody's trying to fix their finances with a math formula, and y- if you were doing math, you wouldn't be in credit card debt.

Jay Shetty 21:07 Yeah. Well said, and I, I'm so happy that you do that as well. I know, you know, from my work, my, the, the traditions I studied, spiritual traditions are such big inspirations to me, and I find so much, uh, validity and timelessness in, in how they apply to today's modern-day challenges.

Jay Shetty 21:25 Dave, the chapter two and chapter three talk about what a baby steps millionaire is and how to become one. Can you define to us the difference between a millionaire and a baby steps millionaire? Because I think this is something that a lot of people struggle with.

Dave Ramsey 21:39 Well, first it, it's good to just say the definition of a millionaire is not a Dave Ramsey definition. This is an accounting definition. Personal finance has been taught for decades before I was born. Th- this is a, it's a math formula. It's a very simple formula. Assets minus liabilities equals net worth. What you own minus what you owe equals your net worth. When your net worth is $1 million or greater, when what you own minus what you owe is one million or greater, you're a millionaire. Well, I don't feel like a millionaire. It's not a feeling. I, I don't believe anybody ought to be a millionaire. It's not a moral construct. I don't think that's enough. It might not be, but it's still a million. It's still what's there. This is a math formula. And when you reach that, the way you're a billionaire, a thousand million, is if you, your assets minus your liabilities. It's not your income. You can make a million dollars a year and not be a millionaire. Uh, you can make $30,000 a year and be a millionaire. So it, it's your, it's a, it's a net worth balance sheet transaction. It's an accounting function. It's not up for negotiation. Now, we can discuss all kinds of things about what a million is and whether it's enough and what the moral construct around it, those kind of... That, that's a f- that's a fair discussion to have, but first you gotta admit and just say, "That is a millionaire." I just don't feel it. I don't care. You are a millionaire. You know, I talked to a guy today on my show. He just paid off his house and it's worth $900,000 and it's gone way up in value. He's out of Denver, and the market's shot way up, and he goes, "It doesn't, I don't feel like a millionaire," 'cause he got several hundred thousand in his 401 [k] , so he's got a net worth of a million dollars. And I, I said, "It, it's not a feeling." [laughs] He goes, "I don't feel like I earned it." It doesn't matter.

Jay Shetty 23:23 [laughs]

Dave Ramsey 23:23 I don't care where you got it. It's still a million. It's still... That's, you gotta really get back to that. So once we do that, then we say, all right, now then where do millionaires come from? And several years ago, we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America. Um, my friend Tom Stanley, who's passed away now, did a book in 1992, um, called The Millionaire Next Door. And, uh, he studied millionaires in 1992, many years ago. Uh, and he's, his sample size in the research was 750 millionaires, and the people who did not like the conclusions of his study used the sample size to criticize and say it wasn't valid. Now, those of us that know statistics know that's a valid sample size. Uh, that, that, you know, that, that, that's a... It, it fits the numbers. But, uh, so we decided as a PR part of the study to do 7,500 millionaires, 10 times what was necessary to be statistically significant. 750 is statistically significant. A- and then we just went overboard and ended up doing 10,167 before we were done. So we've, we've done the largest study, and here's what we found. 79% of America's millionaires, airtight research, data, not a feeling, not a political agenda, not your broke brother-in-law's opinion at b- at Thanksgiving, not how he feels about rich people, none of this. Data. 79% inherited precisely zero.

Jay Shetty 24:52 Wow.

Dave Ramsey 24:53 8 out of 10. 5% more inherited a small amount, like $1,500 or $5,000, mathematically could not have possibly made them a millionaire. Another 5% inherited substantial money, like 100,000, $200,000, after they were already millionaires. So 5 and 5 and 79, we're at 89%. 9 out of 10 of America's millionaires did not become millionaires because of an inheritance. Wow.

Jay Shetty 25:24 That's huge.

Dave Ramsey 25:25 So that's a millionaire. And I'm running into these guys everywhere in 30 years of doing this, and it's screaming at me, "This is possible." And, and they're not rocket scientists. They're not rock stars. They're not... 1% of the millionaires in America you would know their name, meaning that they're on TV, or they're a rock star, or they're in NBA or MLB or something. You know, they're in that. But 1%, 99%-

Jay Shetty 25:48 Wow

Dave Ramsey 25:49 ... are a teacher and a policeman, you know? And, and they're a, a, a, a m- number one category or number one career was engineer. So then we started hearing from people, I've been teaching this stuff for 30 years, getting people out of debt, getting them on a budget, so that they can invest in their 401 [k] , so they can pay off their house, and they were following our baby steps and becoming millionaires. So we had m- first generation millionaires, everyday millionaires we called them, and then we had millionaires that had become millionaires following our process, and that process is called the baby steps. So that's the... It's a nuanced subset of what a millionaire is. Too much talk, but that's, that's the deal.

Jay Shetty 26:26 Not too much talk at all. That was brilliant. I'm so glad you went there. Not too much talk at all. I think, you know, that's fascinating, first of all, the fact that you did this study. Second of all, I think when you hear that, everyone's just surprised, because you just assume that everyone who's a millionaire is either a, you know, a tech founder or a celebrity or a musician, and, you know, I think we have perceptions, as you rightly said earlier, around wealth. What are some of those key steps? If someone's in their 20s right now or in their 30s and they're like, "I want to be a baby steps millionaire," I don't want to walk through the seven steps, because I know they're beautifully laid out in

Jay Shetty 27:00 the book. What are some of the first things that they need to start thinking about, Dave?

Dave Ramsey 27:04 Let's go back to and, and say out loud the tech person or whatever, the stuff we're teaching will not make you a billionaire. It won't do it. Mathematically, it won't. These were millionaires, 1 to $10 million worth of net worth, okay? And, and so these are... That's a lot of money, [laughs] but it's not a billion. These people don't have private jets. They don't have six houses. They don't have a Lamborghini. Those are billionaires that have that, and a lot of those are people that, that are household names, uh, the Gates or the Buffetts or the whatever, that kind of thing, and that's... but that's a different world. In this world, the way to get the first 1 to 10 million ends up being 80% of them, about 83% of them, had two things that showed up almost every time. Number one, they funded their 401 [k] in good mutual funds and their Roth IRAs in good mutual funds over an extended period of time, 12 to 17 years. That's not that long, but that was long. It's longer than five minutes. This'll... and it's not get rich quick. It's the tortoise, not the hare. So 12 to 17 years. During that time, the average millionaire paid off their home in 10.2 years. And so what we've got is we've got a guy that's, or a gal, that's got a million five net worth, and they... of it is a f- in there is a $500,000 paid-for home and a million dollars in their retirement accounts. And that's almost all... It was those two things, you know, the power of compound interest, building up your emerge- or building up your mutual funds, winning in your 401 [k] , and just steady, steady, steady, never stopping, never panicking when the market's down, just steady, steady, steady, steady. Just keep doing it. Just keep doing it. Just keep... It's boring. It's not sexy at all. You're not gonna be on the cover of Fast Company magazine, you know? Paying off your mortgage, nobody knows you did it. It's just kind of bo-... But here you're sitting with a paid-for house and a million bucks, I think you're gonna be okay. So that, that's what most of them did. A few of them were farm millionaires, uh, uh, large enough to be, uh, to mention here, meaning that they, uh, not inherited, but they were a farmer that bought land, and then they bought more land, and then they bought more land, and that land in and of itself became worth over a million dollars. That's, that wasn't that unusual. We saw several of those as well. But what we discovered was process people are the ones that did this, whether they were baby steps millionaires or just millionaires. Uh, and so the number one career was engineer. Number two was accountant. Number three was teacher. Number three was teacher. Nu- number four was an executive, and number five was a lawyer. MDs didn't even make the top five. Medical doctors made number six. And, uh, if you count even the MDs, if you count every one of those, okay, engineer, accountant, teacher Uh, executive and lawyer. Every one of those are systems people. They believe in a set of principles, and when you follow those principles, you get a result. As you sow, so shall you reap. If you plant corn, don't be shocked corn comes up. In every one of those, it's a cause and effect world that they live in. They believe in systems. They believe in processes. Figure out the system, work the system. You build a bridge this way, it stays up. You do a lesson plan this way, the t- the student learns. You know, every one of... You know, there's a s- y- you follow a set of decorum and laws and processes in court or the judge puts you in jail for contempt. You have to. And so all of these are process people, so it turns out it's a process.

Jay Shetty 30:39 You spoke about something really brilliant. It's not sexy, it's not quick, and it's not what it looks like on Instagram, on social media in the pictures. I feel like half the battle is building that discipline muscle, that habit, that pattern of consistent focus. What is taking us away from that? How do we build that muscle? Because it sounds like to me that that's what's blocking us. We want it to be sexy. We want it to be fast. We want it to look a certain way, and you're like, "Wait, wait, wait, it doesn't look like that at all."

Dave Ramsey 31:12 You know, I, I think it's disturbing. The, the, the wonderful things about social media are obvious. The wonderful things about the internet are obvious. We're able to do this interview this way. It's obvious that it's a fabulous convenience and everything. The downside is, is that we're creating generations now, even up into my old generation of people, who have the attention span of a gnat. I mean, they can't stick with anything. And in order to do something of greatness, it requires a, a steady application over a period of time. Uh, the old days of a craftsman, uh, going through years of apprenticeship in order to be world-class at something. Now we wanna just snap our fingers and instantaneously be able to do this because we carry this magic wand around in our hand that if we push stuff, push a button, stuff shows up on our porch. I mean, it's magic. And anything we want, you can do... You can get anything you want on this thing in- very, very quickly. It's... You can't even have a good argument 'cause you can get the answer to the problem, uh, there. And, and y- you know, we used to have to sit around and have fights at dinner in, in our family and argue about so whether somebody was right or not. Now somebody goes and looks on the internet and finds the answer and, well, George is just wrong. Henry's right. You know, and it's just... So this attention span thing is a problem. And, um, it, and, and really what that is, uh, underneath, without shaming someone or trying to shame a whole generation, I'm not doing that, because there's people within each generation that don't do this or that break free from it, i- is it's emotional maturity. Uh, the ability to delay pleasure is a sign of maturity. That's what grown-ups do. Children do what feels good. YOLO. You only live once. Quick. Instead of like, "I'm gonna sacrifice to get a greater outcome. I'm gonna live like no one else so that later I can live and give like no one else." I've got to have the moment at this moment. That is a childish expression of any area of your life. It, it will destroy your marriage. It will raise horrible children. Uh, you know, it'll, it'll mess up your career, and it certainly will mess up your money. Short-term thinking. The get rich quick has never worked at any time in the world as an ongoing, provable, sustainable process. It's always... And that's where The Tortoise and the Hare Aesop's fable comes from, right? A- a- and so we gotta stick with this idea, and that even includes our generosity. Uh, you know, we were starting to talk about generosity and, and the, the generosity with these folks, with these millionaires that we studied is a steady thing, like their savings is a steady thing. They're not trying to have this one big event that says, "Look at me, how generous I am." Instead, they're fairly quiet about it, almost absurdly quiet and anonymous about it, and they steadily give in to something that they believe in. If they're a Christian, they're going and giving a tithe at their local church. If they're Jewish, they might also be tithing at their synagogue. Um, the, the, um... You know, regardless of your faith background, there's not a, a religious background on the planet that does not have a steady giving rhythm as a part of its teaching. Every one of them do because it's how you build character. And when you're giving, it's almost impossible to not become grateful. And as you become grateful, the next thing that happens is you become more and more content. And the more content you are in a totally discontented culture, the great advantage you have to build wealth.

Jay Shetty 34:46 Uh, Dave, that is such a fantastic answer. I love how we're talking about money, but we're talking about emotional maturity. We're talking about, you know, character and developing character and developing patience and developing discipline. And you told us earlier how you initially came to f- wealth the first time around or what was considered rich where you were from the first time around.

Jay Shetty 35:07 How emotionally and mentally prepared do we have to be to even be wealthy? Because we talked about the discipline and the postponing of pleasure before we get there. But then even when you get there, to stay there requires a different level of mental and emotional maturity. Talk to us a bit about that, because I think that's often undervalued.

Dave Ramsey 35:30 It's a different level of nobility. Not, not in a, uh, not in an aristocracy sense or a, a looking down on the little people sense. That's not what I'm saying at all. But this idea, what happens is, is the people that do this, they grow into, uh, th- they may be in the acquisition mode early and as it goes along, but as the weight of the responsibility of the wealth starts to grow on them over time, it doe- it seldom happens quickly, then it, it flips from acquisition to servant, to serving. And they see their wealth as an opportunity to serve. Your spouse, I can get her a nice car. I can serve my children. They can go to college, and we can pay for it. I can serve my community, and we can open a homeless shelter or fund a homeless shelter. I can serve, uh, the, the, the world at large. And the more... Y- you start to realize then the more money you're managing, the more people you can help. Because at certain point, that you can't ingest enough stuff. Y- you know, if you eat an... I, you know, when I was a g- kid growing up, I never had lobster. That was the... Red Lobster came to town, it was a big deal, right? And if I got lobster with that drawn butter, oh, my mouth's watering right now.

Jay Shetty 36:39 [laughs]

Dave Ramsey 36:40 If I got lobster with that drawn butter, you know, I thought that was rich people food. A- and so, i- you know, I thought rich people ate lobster all the time. And, and so once I had some money, I finally figured out if you eat enough lobster, it tastes like soap.

Jay Shetty 36:54 [laughs]

Dave Ramsey 36:55 You can't get enough cars to, to, to be okay. Winning, winning does not heal you. Becoming wealthy does not heal you. It makes you more of what you already are. And if you gain wealth gradually and build the character as you're doing it, it will flip at some point, and you will become a noble servant of your family, change your family tree, of your community. And that's really all money is good for after a certain point. Uh, I mean, again, you can have some nice things, and I'm not against having nice things. Uh, but, but your nice things will have you eventually. They'll eat you alive if that's where you think happiness is, 'cause it's not.

Jay Shetty 37:39 Wow, winning does not heal you. That's, that's definitely a powerful, powerful message for, you know, each and every one of us to hear, especially because I think society, as you said earlier, has actually programmed that feeling, is that if you win, you won't even... Well, actually, we've been made to believe if you win, you don't even need healing.

Dave Ramsey 37:58 We end up seeing these folks that are in the celebrity, in the spotlight, whether it's sports figures or Hollywood figures or whatever, and th- they become massively successful within their craft and financially successful, too. But we, we, they prove out the concept of what we just said. Their, uh, their lives are a mess many times. And, and th- they, they didn't get what they hoped to get from all of it. Uh, they didn't get healing. They didn't get happiness. They didn't get wholeness. They didn't get contentment. Uh, quite the opposite. Because what money does is it's a magnifier. It makes you more of what you are. A- and so to, to the extent you are whole, it's gonna make you noble and serving. And to the extent that you are greedy, you're gonna be unbelievably greedy. To the extent you have a temper problem, you're gonna be a rage-a-holic. I mean, you're gonna be m- if you're crazy, you're gonna get crazier. I mean, whatever it is, it makes you more. It magnifies whatever you are. And so it, it, it is, it is a, it's a powerful weapon. It's a powerful tool to be used. But it is very dangerous because it's a magnifier.

Jay Shetty 39:01 Yeah, and that, that links nicely to this really important question you ask and answer in chapter seven, which is, will wealth ruin my kids, right? I think that's a very common, again, misconception. It's a common question. And you talk about how sometimes parents actually wait too long to talk to kids about money because we kind of things like, "Oh, they're not gonna understand it. They're not gonna get it. They're not old enough yet."

Jay Shetty 39:26 Talk to us a bit about why we have that fear that wealth will ruin our kids, and how early can you start? And I know in the book you talk about the five behaviors to raise money smart kids, but maybe if you can just touch on one or two of them that you really feel is the right time to start and where to start.

Dave Ramsey 39:46 Well, if we go back to our earlier discussion, understand that handling money is 80% behavior. It- it's not different. And so i- in the sense that our... we have to teach our children to behave. We have to teach them to have discipline, self-discipline. If they don't have self-control, th- they're, they're gonna be a horrible spouse. They're gonna be a horrible parent to my grandkid. Uh, if they don't have self-control, they're not gonna be a good employee or a good boss, a good leader in their organization. Uh, and so they have to learn behaviors at home, and we can use money as one of the things we do that we use to teach them to have behaviors. And so one of the things we all use, had used on us and we used on our kids [laughs] was y- you know, you have to do your homework, and you have to get good grades. Well, that's control, self-control, and we're gonna, we'll walk with you, we'll coach you, we'll help you if you're struggling. We support you. But not doing it is not an option. You're going to learn to do... You know, you have to brush your teeth. You won't have teeth when you're old. You need to brush your teeth. It's a good thing. A- and so you can't just ignore this. You have to bathe, 'cause that way you'll get a spouse later and leave. And so, you know, you have to [laughs] .

Jay Shetty 40:57 [laughs]

Dave Ramsey 40:57 We want to teach our kids these things, right? So money is the same way, and we teach them age-appropriate. You know, when you pick up your toys in your bedroom and you're three, what that really means is, is that I picked up all your toys and you picked up two of them. But I'm gonna give you all the psychological and emotional credit and give you a high five as the best room cleaner that there ever was on the planet. Oh, and I'm also gonna give you a dollar bill to put in your piggy bank over here. I want to put your p- I want to put that dollar bill in your... 'Cause I want you to as- emotionally associate work with money. Work is where money comes from, and that's absolutely vital. And if you can do that, then, then you get the ability to teach them to save and to spend wisely. You can participate. But I'm not, I'm gonna send a five-year-old to the salt mines. We're not doing that, you know. But, but we are gonna, we're gonna, when you're 14, you're gonna do some work. 'Cause if you wait till they're 18 to start teaching work ethic, they don't know how to do anything.

Jay Shetty 42:00 Yeah.

Dave Ramsey 42:01 And then, then some poor soul is gonna hire them later, and they don't know how to work.

Jay Shetty 42:05 Yeah.

Dave Ramsey 42:06 A- and so it's a gradual, parenting is a gradual process, like so many good things in life. And so You know, the, the idea that, that, uh, we're gonna gradually teach them to work, give, save, spend. Uh, a- and, and if you can teach them to do those things age appropriately, gradually over time, then they've got the character, they have the, the skeletal structure in their character, self-control, self-discipline, the ability to delay pleasure, the ability to set a goal, work towards a goal progressively, uh, age appropriately, and with some help, with some grace when they fall down, with some love. Uh, but not helicoptering in and saving them. Let them, let them feel the pain of the, of the struggle. It's good, uh, 'cause that's where it all comes from, man. You get a callus that way. A- and so, uh, uh, then they're ready to manage money. Oh, by the way, the last step then is that they move from this is how money works to now it is a responsibility. Money is a responsibility. You have to manage money for the good of others. You get to participate in some good things by managing it, but you're managing it for the good of your family, your kids, your grandkids. You're changing your family tree, and that's what I did, and that's why there's some for you in this inheritance. And a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, Proverbs. A- and so we're gonna do that, but you don't get that if it's gonna harm you, and it would harm you if you don't have the skeletal structure, the muscle sinew in this area to carry it. And so when you leave kids that were, quote, in the old days, we used to say so-and-so's a spoiled kid. If you have a spoiled kid and you leave them a bunch of money, well, they're a reality show star later. That's what they e- that's their only skill. And so they can't do anything, and it's sad. They're sad humans, and they, they struggle. A- and then they fall a- down all over the place, and everybody's watching them do it. And, and they do it with big numbers around them. It's awful. A- and so instead, what we want is we want, uh, you know, this is a family that, that is a family of service, and this money is a responsibility. And if you view it that way, you will have the opportunity to manage it for the good of others. And, and for the people of faith, for Go- for the good of God. We're gonna manage it for God's good. A- and so, you know, you can have these kinds of ethereal discussions, but you had to have built the, built the character along the way.

Jay Shetty 44:36 Yeah, what a, what a fantastic and phenomenal answer, Dave, because I made, I did an activity recently where I sat down and I wrote down all the jobs I've had in my whole life, and I was writing down what I learned from each one of them. It was a really fun thing to do.

Dave Ramsey 44:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 44:51 And I realized that I, when I was 14, I was a paperboy in my area, so I delivered newspapers in my area, and I got paid for it. And I remember all the other boys would go and throw the papers in the trash, so the organizer started giving me more money to do all their streets as well. And then I worked at Morrisons, which is our version of Walmart. It's a, you know, a, a grocery store.

Dave Ramsey 45:14 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 45:14 And then I, and then I worked in retail and, you know, so on and so forth. And so in the last 20 years, I've had so many jobs since I started working, and you're so right that I remember paying for my first ever phone bill, paying for my car insurance. Like, my, my parents never paid for those things. I had obviously lived in their home and, uh, you know, was taken care of with shelter and food, but beyond that, any expenditure was personal. And I'm so grateful to them for that because it set me up for this understanding of how hard it was to make money, how hard it was to save money, and how often as a kid I was a bad spender and saw zero in my bank account and what that felt like from an anxiety point of view.

Dave Ramsey 45:55 They let you fall down, but they never let you fall down hard enough that you were permanently harmed.

Jay Shetty 46:00 Yes, yes.

Dave Ramsey 46:01 Just that you learned the lesson. And so that's a lo- that's a loving parent, and it's not child abuse to teach a child that money is limited. It's not child abuse to say no. No is a complete sentence. It's not child abuse to teach a child to work age appropriately so that they can s- be, have a sustainable life with dignity. It's very difficult to have a sense of dignity if you don't have a sense of power over the controllables out there, and people that don't know how to work have no power over those controllables.

Jay Shetty 46:34 Yes, yes. Very well said. Chapter eight, uh, Dave, you speak about something I mentioned earlier, wealth and the wealthy are not evil. You know, that has always been a struggle, and you had this beautiful sentence in the book which you says equal is not fair, right? Equal is not fair. And, and I remembered, I don't know if you've seen this. There's this graphic on social media that's gone viral a few times. It's, I don't know who made it, but it's a picture of, like, three people. One's shorter, one's a bit taller, and then there's a really tall person, and they're all standing on an equal-sized block to watch some sports. And it says equal is... It's similar to that where it's like equality doesn't work because each of these people need a different set of steps to be able to see this sport. And as soon as I read that line in your book, equal is not fair, I thought, "Okay, that makes sense to me." But to a lot of people, that's worrying. A lot of people would rather wealth be distributed equally and, and, you know, figuring that out and working from that perspective.

Jay Shetty 47:32 But walk us through, uh, your thoughts on why equal is not fair and, and how we should think about that differently.

Dave Ramsey 47:40 If you throw the papers, and you actually throw them and deliver them to the people's houses, and you get paid the exact same as the guy who threw them away, that's not fair. You, you provided a much more service to the community. You had integrity. You didn't steal. And the guy who threw them away took, uh, someone else's papers, they weren't his, and he threw them away. That's stealing, and he didn't follow through on his promise, and he was getting paid for a service he didn't even attempt to do. That's also stealing. So his lack of integrity A- and, and lack of service in the marketplace. And to say that those two people should be paid the same is an immoral statement. Equal is not fair. It would not be fair for that guy to get the same money over time a- as you got. Uh, now, I, I, I would never propose that two people doing the exact same thing and providing the exact same level of service somehow got different because of their skin color or their sex or something like that. No. Uh, we've got folks of every background, every ethnic origin, and everything else o- on our, in our leadership team, and we d- we're, we're completely blind to all that. We're, we're... All we w- want to know inside Ramsey is did you do the job? [laughs] And if you did the job, you get the money, and that's how that works. And so, uh, th- that, that's the, that's the only measure. A- and but to say that, uh, that, that we're gonna spread it out across the people who did the work, didn't do the work, who, who plowed the field or didn't plow the field, who showed up in the, when the storm came through and got the tree out of the road, the other one just sat at home and wa- a- a- a- and, you know, and, and played, you know, some kind of game on the TV or something, what- I mean, that's just communism is what it is. At its core, it's an economic system. It's not name-calling, uh, this idea that things are equal. So we have to eliminate that, number one. Then once we eliminate that, well, then we start to understand what my friend, uh, Rabbi Lapin says. Rabbi Lapin's an Orthodox Jewish rabbi. We've become really good friends, 'cause I just love his teaching, um, like I love yours. He says that, uh, money comes to people who serve, that when you serve, your customers give you certificates of appreciation with presidents' faces on them. And so, uh, you know, this idea that evil people prosper, no, they, the, the percentage of evil people among the wealthy is about the same percentage of evil people among the poor. Because again, money makes you more of what you already are. You're magnified. A- and so here's the thing. You think about it. If you got a, uh, a guy that works on cars, he has a, he has a auto repair shop, and you go in there, and he, he tinkers around on the car, and he says, "That'll be $150," and you drive away, and the next day your car breaks down again. You come back in there, you go, "Hey, I gave you $150. You didn't fix my car." He goes, "I know, but it'll be another $150." You know, [laughs] "I'm not giving you another $150." And you go back. Finally, you go, "Okay, this, this guy's a crook," okay? Or he's incompetent, one of the two. He doesn't know how to fix my car. Now, what do you do? Do you keep going there and giving the guy money? Obviously not. No, you... No, more than that. You go tell everyone you know, "This guy's a crook. Don't do business with him." Now, does that guy prosper at the end of the story? Of course not. He goes out of business. Over time, the marketplace will punish him for his crookedness. Now, take the guy next door who's got an auto repair place. You go in there. He looks under the hood, and he goes, "Oh, there it is." And he goes, "You're okay." "Well, what do you, what do I owe you?" "Nothing, just remember me when your car really breaks, 'cause I just fixed it. It's no big deal." And you drive away going, "I found a guy who fixed my car for free, and he actually is honest. This is a unicorn."

Jay Shetty 51:21 Yeah.

Dave Ramsey 51:21 "I'm gonna tell everyone about this guy." And then this guy, uh, you know, we visit this guy now 20 years later, he's got a franchise operation. He's got this color of store fixing cars in 56 cities across America. He's worth $8 million, and now he's evil. What?

Jay Shetty 51:40 Yeah.

Dave Ramsey 51:40 That's absurd. The line of thinking here, the critical thinking skills that gets you to that are nonexistent. It's impossible to be a crook and prosper in a free marketplace long-term. The... Or, or to use crookedness as a method of wealth building, 'cause it actually works against you. So that, that's Rabbi's, uh, you know, that's his line of thinking on that, and that, that's where we go to. So yeah, there are... I, I know evil people that are rich, but I know a lot more that are unbelievably kind, generous, grateful. S- they got more time for you than, than... A- and they'll do anything for anyb- I mean, they're, they're just unbelievable humans. A- and that's the one, I know a lot more of those than I do crooks. Money is i- amoral. It's not about money. It doesn't have morals. It's about the human being, and when it touches that human, it reflects who they are.

Jay Shetty 52:34 Dave, uh, this has been so much fun getting to know you. I've, I've always watched you from afar, admired you, uh, you know, a big fan, follower in me, and to sit down with you and to have this conversation with you, and to hear about the, the depth of these ideas, right? You're, you're highly strategic, methodical. People can actually get really functional advice on how to change their lives financially. But I love the depth and the gravitas with which you do it. I genuinely mean that.

Jay Shetty 53:02 And we end every On Purpose episode with the final five. These questions have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. Uh, so they're a quick-fire round. Uh, Dave Ramsey, these are your final five. Are you ready?

Dave Ramsey 53:15 I'm ready.

Jay Shetty 53:16 Okay, awesome. So the first question is, what is the best financial advice you've ever heard, received, or given?

Dave Ramsey 53:24 Be intentional.

Jay Shetty 53:25 Second question, what is the worst financial advice you've ever received or heard?

Dave Ramsey 53:31 You can borrow your way into wealth.

Jay Shetty 53:33 Great answer. Very aligned. All right, question number three. What do you believe is the best investment or spending that you've ever done in your life?

Dave Ramsey 53:42 Giving.

Jay Shetty 53:43 Beautiful. Uh, question number four, what do you think was your biggest financial mistake of an investment or a expenditure?

Dave Ramsey 53:50 Uh, going deeply in debt to build wealth.

Jay Shetty 53:52 And fifth and final question, if you could make one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Dave Ramsey 53:59 I would require them to be generous.

Jay Shetty 54:01 That's beautiful. Dave Ramsey, everyone. Uh, if you haven't already got the book, Baby Steps Millionaires, please go and grab a copy of the book. If you don't subscribe to Dave's podcast, The Ramsey Show, make sure you do. Uh, his podcast, lots of other incredible podcasts as part of that network as well. Uh, please tag Dave and I on Instagram, on Facebook, on Twitter about what resonated with you, what you took away. There were so many nuggets of wisdom and insight. I love the studies and research that Dave shared. Make sure you tag us both to let us know, because we'd love to see what you took away, and make sure you keep coming back to On Purpose for more insights into your mental health, which includes your finances, which includes your fitness, and of course, includes your friendships. Uh, Dave, thank you so much. Any final words for our community?

Dave Ramsey 54:48 I'm unbelievably honored to be with you. I hope we get to do this again, and the next time we need to just hang out a little bit.

Jay Shetty 54:53 I would, I would absolutely love that. If you're in LA, let me know. If I'm in Nashville, I'll let you know. And, uh, otherwise, I'm gonna keep supporting from afar, and we'll definitely do this again. So thank you, Dave, and thank you to your whole amazing team as well, who've been so helpful.

Dave Ramsey 55:06 Thank you, sir.

Jay Shetty 55:07 Thank you. If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here. I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book, Think Like a Monk, from thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description to make sure you order today.