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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

Dr. Andrew Weil ON: Using Food As MEDICINE To Reduce Inflammation & HEAL THE BODY | Jay Shetty

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour.

Jay ShettyhostDr. Andrew Weilguest
Feb 20, 20231h 8mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 3:20

    Intro

    1. JS

      Literally, if you turn any packet around, everything is canola oil-

    2. AW

      I know

    3. JS

      ... palm oil, and there's one more, I think

    4. AW

      Well, palm oil, aside from all the environmental effects-

    5. JS

      Right, yeah

    6. AW

      ... of it, which are terrible, although the fatty acid profile is okay, most of the commercially produced canola oil is heavily contaminated with agrochemicals, and it's extracted with heat and solvents, and that denatures the oil and creates carcinogenic products. The bestselling author and host.

    7. JS

      The number one health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become healthier, happier, and more healed. Now, you know that I'm a curious person who wants to learn more and more about our mind, our body, our health, and tools and techniques that can improve that for us, and I like sitting down with individuals who've dedicated their lives and their life's work to understanding what can improve the lives of others. Today's guest is someone I've been really looking forward to having on the show. I know you'll be really excited as well. Uh, we're gonna be talking about a wide array of subjects, but I'm gonna give you really practical, insightful tips and tools that you can put into your life and day immediately to make an impact. My guest today is Dr. Andrew Weil, a world-renowned re- leader and pioneer in the field of integrative medicine. Combining a Harvard education and a lifetime of practicing natural and preventive medicine, Dr. Weil is the founder and director of the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona, where he is a clinical professor of medicine and professor of public health. A New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Weil is the author of 15 books on health and wellbeing. Dr. Weil is also the founder and partner in the growing family of True Food Kitchen Restaurants. Dr. Weil's current project include matcha.com, bringing the world's best matcha to the West. Uh, I am so excited to welcome Dr. Andrew Weil. Andrew, thank you for being here.

    8. AW

      I'm delighted to be here.

    9. JS

      Uh, very excited to learn from you about a subject matter that has so much, as we were talking about briefly before, has no insight, bad insight. Uh, you know, I feel people are underserved in this space. And so, so let's dive straight in. The first thing I wanted to ask you, uh, and dive into you with was this, um, was this thought around what are the diet and lifestyle habits people need to do every day to live longer, healthier, and prevent cognitive decline?

    10. AW

      Well, you know, that's fairly simple. Uh, the, the first rule of healthy eating is to avoid refined, processed, and manufactured food. You know, that, that's what's doing us in. And, uh, I'm one of the first people to have begun talking about the importance of containing inappropriate inflammation. Uh, and I have developed an anti-inflammatory diet based on the Mediterranean diet, but I added Asian influences to that because I've spent a lot of time in Asia, and there are things there like mushrooms and turmeric and tea that I find very useful. Uh, but we, it really looks, there's more and more evidence that chronic low-level

  2. 3:20 – 7:24

    Do you know the first rule of healthy eating?

    1. AW

      inappropriate inflammation is the root cause of most of the serious diseases that do people in prematurely. So containing inflammation is very important, and diet has a major influence there. But again, the first step of an in- anti-inflammatory diet is to try to eliminate refined, processed, and manufactured foods. In terms of other lifestyle practices, basic ones, maintain physical activity throughout life, get good rest and sleep, learn and practice some methods of neutralizing the harmful effects of stress on the mind and the body, um, maintaining good relationships, especially spending time with people in whose company you feel more positive. Uh, I mean, those are very simple steps. F- as for cognitive decline, this is of, of great concern to many people, uh, you know, because we all know people who have experienced c- cognitive decline, and we want to avoid that. So I think [laughs] two very practical pieces of advice. One is don't get hit in the head, and that may mean, you know, taking precautions if you're doing hazardous activities and being, you know, I, I don't recommend that people play f- f- American football, uh, for example. And another is don't smoke because, uh, nicotine constricts blood vessels, reduces blood flow to the brain. So those are two, two simple tep- steps. I think also I recommend, uh, practices like doing word puzzles to keep your mind active, learning another language. You don't have to master the language, just the attempt to learn it is very useful. So, so those are so- those are some pieces of practical information.

    2. JS

      Yeah, I think you've given us a beautiful spectrum of things to focus on there, and I think I definitely in my life try and tackle one of those areas every year-

    3. AW

      Oh, good

    4. JS

      ... because I feel that they're so big in and of themselves, and my biggest mistake in the past was when I tried to change-

    5. AW

      Everything

    6. JS

      ... everything-

    7. AW

      Right

    8. JS

      ... all at the same time.

    9. AW

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    10. JS

      You're trying to improve your relationship-

    11. AW

      Yeah, yeah

    12. JS

      ... you're trying to improve your gut, you're trying to improve your workout regime. And so I l- I love what you're saying, that there's all these things, and I would lis- everyone who's listening and watching, please try to choose one thing that you're going to try to deeply improve this year that you feel is the one you're struggling with the most, that may be having the most negative impact on you, because you'll start to see how they all affect each other.

    13. AW

      Yeah. It doesn't have, you don't have to wait a year, however.

    14. JS

      Sure.

    15. AW

      I have, I have a book called Eight Weeks to Optimum Health, which is a program-

    16. JS

      There we go. All right [laughs]

    17. AW

      ... each week, you know, you do something. Like you start by walking 10 minutes a day, and each week you add, you know, five minutes to that.

    18. JS

      There we go.

    19. AW

      Uh, but I think you're, you're quite right that a big mistake that people make is to try to do global change, and then they give up.

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. AW

      So I think it's best to take it in small bites.

    22. JS

      Yeah. Let's dive into some of those because I think they're easier said than done. So what you just spoke about with diet, that's something that I've- Genuinely been focusing on probably for the past 12 months in terms of not eating any packaged foods and refined sugars and, um, processed foods, and so I'm eating only natural foods. I'm, I'm already plant-based in my diet, uh, but making sure that I'm eating vegetables and trying to avoid anything that's out of a packet. It's easier said than done. It took a lot of time for me to kind of move in that direction. I had to find a meal prep service. I have an amazing wife who's an incredible cook and chef, and so that helps, uh, you know, a million times over. For people that are trying to make simple steps to changing specifically their diet to an anti-inflammatory diet, what are certain simple steps people can take, make, the eight-week version almost?

    23. AW

      Well, you know, I, in the, in the book I said learn how to be friendly with broccoli. Broccoli is a very easy vegetable to cook, but most, many people overcook it and it's not very appetizing.

    24. JS

      Mm.

    25. AW

      And there's a very simple way of cooking it for about two minutes, uh, so it's bright green and crunchy. Put some olive oil on it, garlic if you want. Uh, but that's a wonderful powerhouse vegetable with cancer protective effects. Uh, add some berries to your diet because they're full of antioxidants. Uh, we talked about, I mentioned tea. I think tea is a very healthful beverage. It's one of the main sources of protective antioxidants.

  3. 7:24 – 11:52

    Dr. Weil shares some of the superfoods we can incorporate in our daily meals.

    1. AW

      Um, I think it's good to learn different types of tea and, and how to add them, find which ones you like.

    2. JS

      What specific teas have you found to have those benefits?

    3. AW

      Well, I'm a big fan of green tea-

    4. JS

      Mm-hmm

    5. AW

      ... because I've spent a lot of time in Japan, and particularly matcha green tea, which I think is, you know, has the highest levels of some of these protective elements in them.

    6. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AW

      Uh, but I think all tea is beneficial. When I was doing research on healthy aging, I made a number of trips to Okinawa, which at the time that I was doing it had the highest concentration of centenarians in the world. And one of the, uh, s- things that I observed there was that in, in very hot weather, people were drinking cold unsweetened turmeric tea.

    8. JS

      Mm.

    9. AW

      Delicious. And, uh, you know, in North America, people are really unfamiliar with turmeric except as a, as it occurs in yellow mustard and, and, uh, curry. Uh, but this form of turmeric in Okinawa is fermented, and which makes it more bioavailable and tastier. It dissolves very quickly in cold water. It's really delicious. So that's one that, uh, that I recommend, you know, uh, learning how to get more turmeric into your diet. It's the most powerful anti-inflammatory agent, natural anti-inflammatory agent that we know.

    10. JS

      Wow, yeah. Turmeric's a big part of the Indian diet, so-

    11. AW

      Indians eat it-

    12. JS

      I was exposed to it since I was a kid

    13. AW

      ... yeah, Indians eat it at every meal.

    14. JS

      Yes, yeah.

    15. AW

      And you know, one of the, uh, interesting correlations, India, I think rural India especially, has the lowest rate of Alzheimer's disease in the world.

    16. JS

      Mm.

    17. AW

      And many researchers think that's related to the regular consumption of turmeric.

    18. JS

      Wow.

    19. AW

      Because Alzheimer's begins as inflammation in the brain, and there's some animal research showing that turmeric can protect, um, rats that are genetically programmed to develop Alzheimer's from developing it.

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. AW

      So I think turmeric is a very good thing to become friendly with.

    22. JS

      [laughs] That's, that's a great insight. I love that story of going to Okinawa. I went to, uh, Sardinia a few years ago.

    23. AW

      Ah, well, that's one of the healthy-

    24. JS

      Correct, yeah

    25. AW

      ... healthy aging places

    26. JS

      ... one of the blue zones.

    27. AW

      Yeah.

    28. JS

      Yeah.

    29. AW

      And what's interesting, I, I want to hear what you saw there, but the, uh, you know, i- if you go to these areas around the world where there are un- unusual concentrations of very healthy old people, women outnumber men by a long shot.

    30. JS

      Mm.

  4. 11:52 – 16:52

    The amazing growth of matcha tea worldwide.

    1. AW

      and two things about it totally caught my attention. One was the color.

    2. JS

      Yeah.

    3. AW

      You know, this vibrant green.

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. AW

      And the other was the bamboo whisk that you use to whisk the, the matcha tea into a froth in a bowl of water. It's carved from a single piece of bamboo, just a miracle of Japanese craftsmanship. So I, I fell in love with matcha. When I got back to the States, nobody knew anything about it or ever heard of it. Uh, over the years when I was go to Japan, I'd bring matcha back and I'd turn people onto it. I tried, starting in the 1980s, I partnered with a Japanese company to try to sell it on my website. There was no market for it. I did that again in the 1990s. Anyway, it's quite amazing now to see this-

    6. JS

      Mm

    7. AW

      ... you know, penetrating our culture. Matcha is prepared i- in a very unique way. The, the tea plants are heavily shaded for three weeks before harvest, a 90% shade cloth, so it cuts out almost all sunlight. In response to that, the leaves get bigger and thinner and produce more chlorophyll, trying to take advantage of what light is there, and they also produce more antioxidants and flavor compounds and this amino acid L-theanine that has a calming effect and moderates the action of caffeine. So for that reason, matcha, I think, is, is more healthful than other forms of tea, and also you consume the whole leaf, uh, not just an infusion of it. So that's one that I'm quite enthusiastic about, and I started a company. We got the URL matcha.com-

    8. JS

      [laughs]

    9. AW

      ... which was a, which was a great too.

    10. JS

      Genius.

    11. AW

      Yeah. [laughs]

    12. JS

      How, how, when did you get that URL? I'm fascinated.

    13. AW

      Ah.

    14. JS

      Did you have to buy it recently, or you've had it for like years?

    15. AW

      No, this was, no, it's like six or six or seven years.

    16. JS

      Okay.

    17. AW

      We tracked it down. It was owned by a Japanese man who had no idea what he had. He had, if you went to the site, he had pictures of his cats.

    18. JS

      [laughs]

    19. AW

      Um, and, uh, my business partner, uh, Andre Fassiolo, managed to negotiate with him, and we got it at a quite reasonable price. People in Japan can't believe we've got, we've got that. Anyway, we import very high quality matcha. And by the way, if your, if your listeners, uh, use a discount code J-

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm

    21. AW

      ... we'll give them a very generous discount on our products.

    22. JS

      Oh, I love that.

    23. AW

      Right? Okay.

    24. JS

      There you go. There you go, everyone.

    25. AW

      So I'm a big fan of matcha. I'm delighted to see that it's gaining traction. However, a lot of the matcha here is not very good, because-

    26. JS

      Mm

    27. AW

      ... it's such a fine powder, uh, that unless it's carefully protected, it oxidizes very quickly.

    28. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AW

      Uh, loses its brilliant green color, it becomes bitter. Uh, and many people have tried matcha and say they don't like it, but they've never tasted good matcha.

    30. JS

      Mm.

  5. 16:52 – 18:07

    Let’s talk about the green mediterranean diet.

    1. AW

      of compounds called polyphenols. Uh, and these are antioxidant compounds that are found in plants and fruits, vegetables, especially berries, uh, tea, and dark chocolate. Uh, so the medi- this green mediterranean diet specifically recommended green tea, uh, to add, and they noted chocolate, for they mentioned all tea. So I think this is fascinating, you know, to see, uh, and these are researchers really, uh, you know, uh, not really trying to promote any agenda.

    2. JS

      Yeah. Have, has your work led to any of the research that I'm recently seeing around like canola oil, palm oil, and the negative harmful effects versus what now I'm only eating in is avocado oil and olive oil-

    3. AW

      Yep

    4. JS

      ... uh, as my primary oil.

    5. AW

      There's one other that you should check out is algae oil, if you don't know about that.

    6. JS

      Oh, okay. I didn't, yeah, no.

    7. AW

      This is a new product that's out there, uh, and it's m- it's made through, uh, culture, it's called cultured oil, and it's pr- it's microorganisms that have been, uh, been altered in o- to produce oil, which is almost all monounsaturated fat.

    8. JS

      Mm.

    9. AW

      Uh, is, has a very high smoke point, neutral taste, and also has one of the omega-3 fatty acids in it. So that's another choice, but those are the ones I use also, avocado and olive.

    10. JS

      And what are some

  6. 18:07 – 24:47

    Did you know that cooking oils are processed differently?

    1. JS

      of the harmful effects of the canola, palm oil that-

    2. AW

      Well, the, the-

    3. JS

      Because they're pretty mu- literally, if you turn any packet around, everything is canola oil-

    4. AW

      I know

    5. JS

      ... palm oil, and there's one more, I think.

    6. AW

      Well, palm oil, aside from all the environmental effects-

    7. JS

      Right, yeah

    8. AW

      ... of it, which are terrible, there are two kinds of palm oils. There's o- an oil extracted from the fruit of the oil palm, which is red and is used in Africa as a cooking oil and is okay, but we rarely see that. And then there's the oil extracted from the kernel, and that is very high in, in, uh, unstable, unsaturated fatty acids that oxidize quickly. It's also very high in saturated fat. Uh, so that's not a good one. Canola oil Is a, you know, the word c- it means Canadian oil, and it was developed-

    9. JS

      Oh

    10. AW

      ... by Canadian scientists, uh, I think in the 1920s or 1930s from a traditional cooking oil that you know in India, rapeseed oil.

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm. Yes, and that's another one, yeah.

    12. AW

      Right. And, uh, rape has a toxic fatty acid in it, possibly. The Canadian scientists, uh, worked with it to develop one that was low in that, in that fatty acid. Uh, problems with canola oil, al- although the fatty acid profile is okay, um, most of the commercially produced canola oil is heavily contaminated with agrochemicals, and it's extracted with heat and solvents, and that denatures the oil and creates carcinogenic products. So it's one I would stay away from now. I, I recommended it in the past, but I don't anymore.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. AW

      I'm a big fan of olive oil.

    15. JS

      Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

    16. AW

      And, yeah. [laughs]

    17. JS

      Absolutely. No, everyone cook, cook with olive oil.

    18. AW

      By the way, I've taught, you know, I, I've, I've worked with a number of Indian patients-

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm

    20. AW

      ... um, you know, who are very, uh, convinced that ghee can do no harm.

    21. JS

      Yeah.

    22. AW

      You know, and it's pure butter fat.

    23. JS

      Yeah.

    24. AW

      And it's probably not healthy, and the rates of cardiovascular disease in India are pretty high. And I've taught people to, uh, use g- ghee as a flavoring, you know, cook with a healthier oil like avocado, and then at the end you can drizzle some ghee over to-

    25. JS

      Mm

    26. AW

      ... get the flavor you want.

    27. JS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    28. AW

      And I've also suggested, I had a, a, a student, a, a physician from Kerala, uh, where coconut o- you know, or it's the land of coconuts, and they use, uh, uh, coconut oil and coconut r- he- full-fat coconut milk. And I taught her to use cashew milk, which is very easy to make, and it's much healthier fat than, than coconut. It's monounsaturated, not saturated, and the taste is delicious.

    29. JS

      Wow, that's good to know about ghee, 'cause yeah, it's, it's one of those things that my mom never wants me to miss.

    30. AW

      Right, I know. But-

  7. 24:47 – 30:41

    Let’s talk about cannabis and its medicinal use.

    1. AW

      better position to do this than physicians because there's no cannabis preparation out there that most doctors are gonna feel comfortable using. Uh, and until we have something like that, I, I don't think doctors are gonna go near it. They don't understand it. But it's great that nurses are using it. A lot of them are using it for pain control. Uh, they're also using it in, in the hospice situations, especially with people with terminal cancer, and they say they find it very useful. So I, I think it's ... You know what? I, I'm happy to see this becoming used. I think there's a lot we don't know about it, and I find it very difficult when people ask my advice about it. I don't know what preparations to recommend to people.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. AW

      Uh, you know, the, the ... It's confusing.

    4. JS

      What's your take on the more social use of it, leisure-

    5. AW

      Well, I was ... You know, I was part of that culture in my 20s and 30s, and, uh, you know, it was, it w- it was, it was fun back then. You know, it was a fun social, uh, e- experience, you know? And, and, uh, then I, I also found that it was very, um, stimulated my imagination, creativity, helped me write. Uh, but at some point that changed-

    6. JS

      Mm

    7. AW

      ... and that I, it, it, the, my reactions to it changed. I became more introspective, withdrawn, and then eventually it became an unproductive habit-

    8. JS

      Mm

    9. AW

      ... that just made me groggy, and it was hard for me to separate myself from it. And it's been-

    10. JS

      So what was that? Yeah, what do you think that was because I think that's, that's such a interesting arc of a journey with it.

    11. AW

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      I think a lot of people feel-

    13. AW

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... that way. That's kind of like an arc. I had a lot of friends who initially started for those reasons and then ended up paranoid or ended up-

    15. AW

      Yeah

    16. JS

      ... confused or ended up lethargic or to-

    17. AW

      I don't know. Maybe-

    18. JS

      Yeah

    19. AW

      ... you know what? Maybe it has something to do with, with changes as we age.

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. AW

      Possible.

    22. JS

      Mm.

    23. AW

      But it was such a striking change in, in the effects for me, you know? So something that I thought of as an ally that was helping me really, it ceased being that.

    24. JS

      Yeah, yeah. Okay. That's, that's really interesting to know because yeah, I feel ... I had a lot of friends in the same bucket. I never really, um, I never really dabbled with it deeply, but, but in, in my brief experiences it was fa- Very brief experiences, it was far more the creative or the spark.

    25. AW

      Yeah.

    26. JS

      But it, I never got deep into it, but my friends who did, they, they went on the same arc that you did.

    27. AW

      So that's interesting.

    28. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. AW

      And I don't know ... I have not seen anyone write about that or talk about that or investigate what the cause of that is.

    30. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

  8. 30:41 – 36:17

    This is how cannabis preparation has drastically changed over the years.

    1. AW

      so that was before I'd ever tried, uh, cannabis, but, uh, as a result of, of being in that place at that time, uh, I really got to meet and come across all of the people who worked in that field, with Albert Hofmann, who was the discoverer of LSD, Gordon Wasson, uh, who rediscovered the mushroom cults in Mexico, um, Sasha Shulgin, who invented many of the designer drugs. So I had a long period of experimentation with psychedelics. Uh, and I, uh, you know, have had a lot of benefit from them. I don't, I really don't use them anymore. Um, my first book, The Natural Mind-

    2. JS

      Mm

    3. AW

      ... which was about the importance of altered states of consciousness.

    4. JS

      Oh, no, you can carry on.

    5. AW

      Yeah, yeah.

    6. JS

      Yeah, I'm making sure they see it.

    7. AW

      But, okay [laughs] .

    8. JS

      Yeah, I'm making sure they see it.

    9. AW

      But Alan Watts wrote a blurb for it, in which he said-

    10. JS

      Unbelievable

    11. AW

      ... "When you, when you get the message, you hang up the telephone." And so I think I got, I got what I had to learn from psychedelics, and I didn't feel the need to continue to use them. But I've learned a lot of things from them, and a lot of that has formed my philosophy of integrative medicine, especially the, the very subtle, complex interactions of mind and body.

    12. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AW

      And I have seen very powerfully that you can change external reality by changing internal reality.

    14. JS

      Mm. Let's dive into psychedelics, because that was also what really intrigued me and drew me to your work. Because again, I feel like my generation, generations after me, they're starting to hear these terms in mainstream culture a lot more often. And, you know, I feel like my role is to try and find the deepest experts in this space-

    15. AW

      Yeah

    16. JS

      ... to help everyone have as much information they can have in order to make better decisions for themselves, their friends, their family, and, and anyone that's there. And so I, I'm gonna ask questions that may seem really simple and, and basic, but by design-

    17. AW

      Sure

    18. JS

      ... because I want people ... So what are psychedelics? For someone who keeps hearing that term from their friends, and they keep nodding along, pretending to know what that is, what does it mean, and, and what, what comes under that umbrella?

    19. AW

      You know, the word w- it was a coined word, m- uh, which means mind manifesting. You know, previously people had called these psychotomimetic drugs, meaning they mimic psychosis, which is, uh, you know, a very negative term. Uh, they are, psychedelics are, are a, a gl- a large group of compounds, m- many of which are found in plants. There's one we know from an animal source. Many are synthetic or semi-synthetic drugs. They fall into two chemical families, uh, with very distinctive molecular structures. Ketamine is not a psychedelic, even though many people call it that. Cannabis is not a psychedelic. Doesn't have any chemical resemblance to that. Um, MDMA h- is part of that chemical family related to mescaline, but its effects are not typical of psychedelics. It has a unique effect that makes people emotionally open. I think it is a very useful substance. I guess I would call it a psychedelic, but it's not a classic psychedelic in terms of the perceptual changes that it causes. One, uh, fact about these, this group of compounds is they are strikingly non-toxic physically, much as with, with cannabis. You know, n- that's just not an issue, physical toxicity. The main dangers are psychological, and those are almost entirely results of set and setting. That is the expectation of the person taking them and the physical environment in which they're taken. So, you know, to put it [laughs] in a very crude way, if you, if you take a very high dose of LSD on a New York City subway on a day when you're feeling anxious, you're likely to have a bad trip. On the other hand, if you take the right sort of dose in nature, when you are prepared for the experience and in the company of people who ha- who can guide you in the right direction, the chances are you can have a positive experience.

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. AW

      Uh, the penetration of psychedelics into mainstream culture at the moment is quite astonishing. [laughs] Uh, you know, it ... Before the pandemic, I was traveling a lot and speaking in various places, and no matter what subject I was talking about, whether it was nutrition, healthy aging, integrative medicine, the ... I would get questions about psychedelics. You know, where can we get them? How can we use them? How do you find somebody who can guide you? Um, you know, a few months ago, Vogue Magazine had a cover story on psilocybin. Town & Country Magazine, of all places, had an article titled Why Is Everybody Smoking Toad Venom? I mean, this is, it is really going mainstream in a big way. And it is absolutely absurd to have these in Federal Schedule 1, which is defined as drugs that are, have high potential for abuse and no therapeutic potential. The therapeutic potential of these drugs is enormous. Now, y- you know there is currently a lot of research documenting, uh, benefits in mental, emotional conditions, things like MDMA for PTSD and OCD, psilocybin for drug-resistant depression, for example, and treatment of, of, uh, addictions of various kind. I mean, there's a long g- growing list of conditions for which clearly there are good results obtained. But beyond that, I think there is a tremendous potential, uh, of these to cause spiritual awakening. Uh, some of that has been documented at the Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelics, which is really good. I mean, w- a single experience with psilocybin in people who had no sense of a spiritual dimension to life suddenly are aware of that. Um, in my own, uh, uh, you know, experimentation

  9. 36:17 – 42:02

    What are psychedelics and how can one have a positive experience with it?

    1. AW

      with them, uh, I, I have had very profound realizations that my consciousness extends to everything. You know, that e- everything out there is conscious, not just animate objects-

    2. JS

      Mm

    3. AW

      ... but rocks and everything. And that that same, whatever that is, it's in me. It's in everything. It connects me with everything.

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. AW

      I think h- having that realization, uh, is one of the things that guided me in my philosophy of medicine and my methods of treating patients. I think it's also changed my attitude toward nature. And, [laughs] you know, I, I really ... The title of the book I'm working on is Psychedelics Can Save the World.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. AW

      And I really believe that, and I think it may be the only thing out there that has that possibility, because, you know, we are clearly headed for disaster, and I think the only thing that can save us is a collective transformation of consciousness. I think that can result from enough individuals having a transformation of conscious that it catalyzes some general movement.

    8. JS

      Mm.

    9. AW

      I mean, for instance, if you just look at the issue of, of the climate disaster that we're facing, I think if people realize that they are part of nature, that they're continuous with it- They change their behavior. That's just, that's just one example. And I saw some research, uh, recently showing that people who had had experience with, I think it was psilocybin particularly, become, tend to become involved with the environmental movement. So that is the great hope that I have. So I'm, I'm ... Uh, you know, I think this could go a million different ways in terms of h- whether, you know, for-profit businesses get involved, whether people are gonna be using these to party, but I think it doesn't matter. I think just having these out there in the, in the general culture and freed from that restrictive way that they've been placed, I think that holds great positive potential.

    10. JS

      You like the idea of these things becoming more mainstream and accessible and available because they have so many positive benefits, but there's a part of you that understands or is accepting of the dangers that come in with self-diagnosis and self-use-

    11. AW

      Mm

    12. JS

      ... where it isn't being administered in a healthy dose or a healthy way. What are some of the ... Because, like, the example you gave of getting on the train-

    13. AW

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... like, I look at that and I go, you know, as these things become more available, how do we stop people going off the edge because they don't know how to administer and monitor and actually-

    15. AW

      Well, I would say by training as many people as we can to be guides-

    16. JS

      Right

    17. AW

      ... who, who will behave in an ethical fashion and are experienced and can structure a psychedelic experience in a way to minimize any harmful potential and maximize-

    18. JS

      Yeah

    19. AW

      ... positive potential. So there are a number of groups around the country that have training programs-

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm

    21. AW

      ... for psychedelic guides. We need a lot more of them. Uh, and, you know, my hope is that we'll start to see that.

    22. JS

      Yeah, because I do w- I do worry that ... I, I love the benefits of, of so many incredible sources out there. I do worry that when people are untrained in, in anything that has that much power-

    23. AW

      Yeah

    24. JS

      ... uh, it can be, it can be worrying too, because, you know, you could have a whole world of people who could be saved and supported, but in the wrong way could-

    25. AW

      Sure

    26. JS

      ... you know, could end up in a much worse place psychologically, as you said-

    27. AW

      Yeah

    28. JS

      ... uh, because there isn't that responsibility around it, if that makes sense. Would you agree or-

    29. AW

      Yeah, sure.

    30. JS

      Yeah.

  10. 42:02 – 44:36

    Minimizing the risks and increasing the potential benefits of psychedelics.

    1. AW

      You know, uh, and I've seen many, many people use it with very, very good results. I think it can be incredibly healing for relationships. Uh, I've seen some remarkable, uh, physical changes in people with disappearance of allergies and chronic pain, and there's quite a lot of research on its usefulness in dealing with PTSD. You know, sometimes one structured MDMA session can eliminate that after, you know, people have tried all sorts of psychotherapy, talk therapy that hasn't produced results. So I think it's very like ... That's gonna be the first one that's gonna be made therapeutically available-

    2. JS

      Mm

    3. AW

      ... and probably for the treatment of PTSD.

    4. JS

      Yeah. And, and that's ... PTSD obviously is such an extreme experience.

    5. AW

      Right.

    6. JS

      And so it, it sounds like ... How, how, uh ... I guess, what are people experiencing when they do it? So it sounds like they're more vulnerable. They're more o- they're more empathetic to themselves as well. Is that-

    7. AW

      I'd say it's, uh, I'd say it is a heart-centered experience. You know what?

    8. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AW

      Strong feelings of loving connection with others, uh, calmness, relaxation, uh, and, and a, and a strikingly uniform effect from person to person. Whereas the others, you know, a lot of the others, the classic psychedelics, there's tremendous variation in, in, in response depending on set and setting. MDMA is pretty uniform.

    10. JS

      Yeah. And again, you don't see this as something, it sounds like this is not something you do for the rest of your life. This is a-

    11. AW

      Right

    12. JS

      ... a medicinal almost of like-

    13. AW

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... there's a certain thing to treat and work through. You're working with a practitioner.

    15. AW

      Yes. You may not have to use it that many times.

    16. JS

      Right. Right. Right.

    17. AW

      But I think that, that, that's one that we, we really should have access to and use.

    18. JS

      I lived as a monk for three years in India. I was in a monastery where We spent hours every day, uh, deep in meditation and reflection and the study of spiritual texts and literatures and had very strict diets and, but we were trained in the development of a lot of these, uh, almost like the purification and the detoxing to get to compassion and empathetic states. And so when you were describing some of your experiences, I was like, "I had that experience through meditation," of that connectedness with nature and with, uh, the universe and with each individual soul, whether it be animate or inanimate. So I remember those through meditation, and so our journey was very slow, uh, very step-by-step-

    19. AW

      Yes

    20. JS

      ... a lot of pain and-

    21. AW

      Yes, exactly

    22. JS

      ... a lot of, like, a lot of obstacles to clear the way. Uh, I, I'm intrigued by how does someone feel after the dose has run its course? Like, are they able to stay

  11. 44:36 – 48:10

    Dr. Weil on empathogens and the promising results of this type of psychedelic.

    1. JS

      compassionate and empathetic with their partner? What happens? I'm, I'm intrigued, yeah.

    2. AW

      Well, the effect of the drug wears off-

    3. JS

      Yeah

    4. AW

      ... and because it's a stimulant, you feel, there's a period of time when you feel tired and somewhat-

    5. JS

      Yeah

    6. AW

      ... depleted of energy. But the feelings, you rec- you remain-

    7. JS

      Right

    8. AW

      ... and you can reconnect with those.

    9. JS

      Right.

    10. AW

      And I think it, the, I see permanent change in people.

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    12. AW

      Uh, by the way, in the, in the early days when, uh, people were talking about the spiritual potential of psychedelics-

    13. JS

      Yeah

    14. AW

      ... it really angered a lot of spiritual teachers-

    15. JS

      Mm

    16. AW

      ... you know, who said that this was artificial-

    17. JS

      Mm

    18. AW

      ... that these experiences, um... And I think they were kind of resentful of people having them without [laughs] going through the time and work-

    19. JS

      Mm

    20. AW

      ... that like you put in. Uh, so I, you know, I think there are many valid paths-

    21. JS

      Mm

    22. AW

      ... uh, to achieve those kinds of, of feelings, but psychedelics are fast and they-

    23. JS

      Yeah

    24. AW

      ... offer the, the possibility of giving many more people access to them.

    25. JS

      Yeah. I've seen in, in my personal experience with the right people around me and with people I know that have experienced them, I've found them to be great window openers for people or door openers. It's kind of what you described, like this idea that you got to have a glimpse into a new reality that you didn't know existed. But, but I think I'm always intrigued by how people have that versus it becomes addictive where you're just constantly wanting to live in that new reality. How does that work?

    26. AW

      But I think psychedelics have a kind of self-protective quality to them-

    27. JS

      Yes

    28. AW

      ... which is if you try to take them frequently, the experience disappears.

    29. JS

      Right.

    30. AW

      Uh, so I think people quickly... There, there's not a lot of motivation to use them-

  12. 48:10 – 51:16

    Is there a spiritual potential to psychedelics?

    1. AW

      for addictive disorders. It looks quite safe. Uh, you know, it, it is-

    2. JS

      What's quite safe?

    3. AW

      Well, again, no physical issues with it at all.

    4. JS

      No cognitive?

    5. AW

      No, nothing. And in fact, you know, there have been studies of people who've used these, uh, compounds quite frequently over a long lifetime, and there's been studies of their brains and they look perfectly healthy, so I don't think there's any issues there. Uh, so this is one that, that I think also is gonna be made therapeutically available fairly soon.

    6. JS

      Specifically for?

    7. AW

      For, for, for mental health conditions first.

    8. JS

      Right, right.

    9. AW

      But I think it, again, one that has a lot of potential uses-

    10. JS

      Yeah

    11. AW

      ... in medicine as well. So that, you know, uh, the, a main difference between psilocybin and LSD is duration of action.

    12. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AW

      Um, LSD lasts 10 to 12 hours, which can be inconvenient, uh, and psilocybin is four to six hours, so it's much more-

    14. JS

      Mm

    15. AW

      ... much more manageable.

    16. JS

      And some people are using it recreationally too, and, and how, how do you-

    17. AW

      Yes, they are

    18. JS

      ... yeah.

    19. AW

      Well, again, I'm not gonna be critical of people who do that.

    20. JS

      No, no, no.

    21. AW

      I think, I think that-

    22. JS

      I'm not, I'm not either. I'm just trying to, yeah-

    23. AW

      Frankly-

    24. JS

      ... I'm, I'm trying to understand

    25. AW

      ... I think I'd rather have people use that than alcohol recreationally. I think it's-

    26. JS

      Because, yeah, let's do, yeah

    27. AW

      ... because it's much safer on a physical level and I- probably safer on a psychological level as well. When you look at the numbers of homicides, accidental deaths that are related to alcohol, it's tremendous, and you don't see anything like that with psilocybin.

    28. JS

      Can you drive after taking-

    29. AW

      Well, I, you can. I wouldn't recommend it probably, but if-

    30. JS

      Right

  13. 51:16 – 53:44

    The most common effects and benefits of psilocybin.

    1. AW

      and it may explain why some people have psychedelic-like experiences, whether it's from meditation or fasting or other things. It may be from release of endogenous DMT. And, and some people think this may also mediate the near-death experience, you know, that so many people report.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. AW

      So I, I do believe we have an endogenous psychedelic, and it's very likely to be, you know, DMT.

    4. JS

      Wow. Yeah, and, and y- I, we were talking about this earlier, and I, I love hearing about your travels. Have, have you been to the Amazon?

    5. AW

      Yes.

    6. JS

      Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right.

    7. AW

      I, you know, uh, Schulte sent me down there long ago.

    8. JS

      Right.

    9. AW

      I made a number of trips. I was investigating medicinal plants, uh, ayahuasca, mushrooms, uh, and worked, spent time with shamans to learn what tricks I could learn from them. So yes, so that was a, that was in the 1970s, 1980s. I s- I made a number of trips down there.

    10. JS

      Wow. And, and why do the Amazonians have no problems with taking drugs like DMT and-

    11. AW

      Well, this is an interesting thing. You know-

    12. JS

      Yeah

    13. AW

      ... there are, there are so many, uh, psychedelic plants and preparations in South America and in, in M- Mexico and Central America-

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm

    15. AW

      ... and there are so few in the Old World. You know, there's one plant in Africa called iboga, the source-

    16. JS

      Yes

    17. AW

      ... of a drug called ibogaine, which has been a be-

    18. JS

      I had a client who was using that recently. Yeah

    19. AW

      ... yeah, for addictive behavior. This-

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm

    21. AW

      ... what's... Right. There's a possibility of one from, uh, from India. You know, there's been great speculation as to what this preparation soma was that's referred to in The Vedas.

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AW

      So there's possibly there was some psychedelic preparation there. And the, uh, the Eleusinian mysteries in ancient Greece involved drinking a potion that almost certainly was made from ergot. Uh, and it was a way of detoxifying that fungus and producing an LSD-like drink. But otherwise, you know, you've got this huge abundance of psychedelic preparations in the New World. You know, and it doesn't make botanical sense that there'd be that disparity. So it must be something about the people. [laughs]

    24. JS

      Mm.

    25. AW

      You know, in the Old World, in, in Africa and Asia, people I think are as drawn to altered states of consciousness. But they get into them, especially in Africa, through drumming, uh, prolonged wakefulness, dancing, uh, rather than taking substances.

    26. JS

      Mm, mm. Yeah, yeah. So is that the difference that you see in how we take them and how, how they take them and-

    27. AW

      Yeah

    28. JS

      ... culturally?

    29. AW

      It seems... Right. But in-

    30. JS

      Yeah

  14. 53:44 – 59:05

    Another psychedelic variation we can learn more about.

    1. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    2. AW

      Uh, they're often, uh, you know, under the direction of shamans who are trained-

    3. JS

      In a sacred way

    4. AW

      ... trained in their use. Yeah, absolutely.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. AW

      Um, and, uh, you know, I think their, the potential for abuse in those populations is-

    7. JS

      Very little

    8. AW

      ... miniscule. Right.

    9. JS

      Yeah. That, that's really fascinating. Yeah, I, I feel like, yeah, it was always sacred. It was part of a holy ritual of some kind. It was always used medicinally and understood, and it's kind of ... Yeah, it's-

    10. AW

      Ritual is a very powerful tool for containing the harmful potential of substances.

    11. JS

      Yeah. That's why they were created in, around those, I guess. Yeah. No, that's ... And that's always really interesting for me to hear because I feel like, yeah, there's a, there's a ... And, and I'm just reflecting on it as an individual. I, I look at it and I think, I really trust things that can, are very focused on the intention in which they're taken-

    12. AW

      Yeah

    13. JS

      ... are administered by someone who understands what the power and effect of this is, and it's in an environment that allows you to have a, a fulfilling, powerful experience with a certain goal or-

    14. AW

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... or place to reach to.

    16. AW

      Yeah.

    17. JS

      Uh, that, all of those things to me feel very coherent, uh, with how I would do anything, whether it's getting an operation or-

    18. AW

      Yeah

    19. JS

      ... you know, like I got an operation last year, and I wish I did more research on the doctor.

    20. AW

      [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. JS

      And you know, like, you know, I felt the same way about that.

    22. AW

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      I was like-

    24. AW

      Yeah

    25. JS

      ... you know, we blindly trust-

    26. AW

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... the doctor you got placed with.

    28. AW

      Right.

    29. JS

      And someone told you that they were great, and I wasn't happy with the doctor I had at all. And so, you know, it's, it, it applies to all parts of our life. I think this idea of like, am I intentional with the doctor I chose, the hospital I chose, the-

    30. AW

      Yeah

  15. 59:05 – 1:01:21

    This is what you should stop drinking alcohol

    1. AW

      70%.

    2. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    3. AW

      Yeah, but a, a little bit on a regular basis is fine.

    4. JS

      Yeah. What's a little bit on a regular basis? Not, not a slab a day.

    5. AW

      Not a slab a day. [laughs]

    6. JS

      [laughs] You have this real love for, for this plant medicine that can have such a big benefit on people.

    7. AW

      Yeah.

    8. JS

      And it, and it must be hard because so much of it's been demonized or, or talked about in a certain way. And, and I love what you just said now. It's like you're arguing that it's about your relationship with these things.

    9. AW

      Absolutely. Right.

    10. JS

      And that, and that-

    11. AW

      Yeah, yeah

    12. JS

      ... really fascinates me because I, I feel like that, it's almost like that's how we would talk about it's our relationship with technology, it's our relationship-

    13. AW

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... with money-

    15. AW

      Yeah, there's nothing-

    16. JS

      ... it's our relationship with fame. It's our-

    17. AW

      There is nothing inherently evil about technology.

    18. JS

      Mm.

    19. AW

      You know? It, I think that's true of so many things. It's, it's how we relate to it and the uses we-

    20. JS

      Yeah, and how we use it-

    21. AW

      Yeah, exactly

    22. JS

      ... and what our relationship is with it. Yeah. That's, that's really fascinating. I also wanted to dive into the idea where you mentioned earlier around the spiritual awakening piece.

    23. AW

      Yeah.

    24. JS

      Because I, I definitely am not ... I, I'm, I'm, I would say even though I studied in such a traditional and rigorous way personally, which has led to so many beautiful spiritual awakenings and realizations, I'm very not, I wouldn't consider myself to be closed-minded as to how other people find their paths. I, I find that I have my path, and it was beautiful, but I'm, I'm very open to people finding their paths, and some people are at different stages in their journey where they need different things. Could you walk me through what specifically be use- been used in a spiritual way, and what have been some of the results of that?

    25. AW

      Well, first of all, let me say for me-

    26. JS

      Mm

    27. AW

      ... uh, spirituality means being aware of and acknowledging the non-material aspect of existence.

    28. JS

      Yes.

    29. AW

      Working in the medical field, I am so aware of and frustrated by the power of the materialistic pa- paradigm. You know, that many scientists and many physicians don't believe in anything that's not physical.

    30. JS

      Mm-hmm.

  16. 1:01:21 – 1:03:33

    Let’s talk about the book: Chocolate to Morphine

    1. AW

      know, there's a whole range of mind-body interventions that we make use of in integrative medicine, hypnosis, guided imagery, uh, visualization therapy. But a- and these methods are very cost-effective, very effective, and they're totally underutilized because people don't believe in it. And, and that's why we haven't really made sense of the placebo response, you know, all of that. So I would love to see that change. You know, I'd really love to see a paradigm shift. And to me, that's f- what spiritual awakening is about. You know, it's becoming aware of the non-physical dimension and the reality of the non-physical. And I make a very sharp distinction between spirituality and religion. You know, religion is about institutions, and institutions are mostly concerned with perpetuating themselves. You know, spirituality is, is this connection with acknowledging the non-physical and its importance in interacting with the physical dimension.

    2. JS

      Yeah.

    3. AW

      I think there's lots of ways you can awaken to that. I, I said f- you know, for me and for many people, I've seen psychedelic experience be- become a very powerful way of doing that.

    4. JS

      Yeah. And how have those, how have you and others s- sustained that? Like you were saying yourself, like you, you don't take them anymore, but it- it's become a way of life for you it feels like. That like-

    5. AW

      Yeah, well, I, you know-

    6. JS

      What, what have been some of the habits?

    7. AW

      I meditate.

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. AW

      I do breathwork. And you know, I've always b- uh, been fascinated by the fact that the words breath and the word spirit are the same in most Indo-European languages.

    10. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. AW

      And that I think when we, when we focus our attention on our breath, we're looking at the movement of spirit in the body.

    12. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AW

      Uh, so that's, you know, I think, uh, that is one very practical, powerful way, and most people ignore it. We have that right under our noses-

    14. JS

      Mm

    15. AW

      ... and we don't make use of it.

    16. JS

      I mean, you know, for, for you to have been at Harvard, to have done this research, to have been in this space for so long, it is beautiful to hear you bring science and spirituality together.

    17. AW

      Yeah, yeah.

    18. JS

      Because I feel for so long they've been seen as opposite.

    19. AW

      Opposite, yeah.

    20. JS

      Yeah. And, and I've never understood that-

    21. AW

      Right

    22. JS

      ... as, as considering myself a spiritual scientist or a, you know, it's in that sense of I've always been fascinated by neuroscience, I've always been fascinated by the brain, and at the same time I consider myself a spiritualist. And so hearing you as like a doctor doing all of this medical

  17. 1:03:33 – 1:07:18

    There is a wide range of mind-body interventions and its possible connection to spirituality.

    1. JS

      work, but then finding the spiritual part and the functional part of certain parts of medicine, w- did you always have that when you were studying? Because obviously you went off to become a doctor, like when did that-

    2. AW

      I think I, I think I did always have some of that.

    3. JS

      Because where did that come from?

    4. AW

      I don't know. I think I was born with it.

    5. JS

      Right.

    6. AW

      You know, I can remember always being fascinated by the mind and, uh, and how it related to the body, from as far back as I can remember. And I tried to study that at Harvard, and I was very frustrated that I couldn't. You know, I, I started off majoring in psychology, but at that time, psychology at Harvard was completely dominated by the behaviorists. It was running rats through mazes, and they weren't interested in consciousness. I wanted to know about consciousness.

    7. JS

      Wow.

    8. AW

      And nobody was interested in doing that. And then also in the scientific and medical world, consciousness is seen as a product of brain chemistry or electrical connections in the brain. And you know, I came to feel that consciousness is primary.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. AW

      I think consciousness organizes matter.

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AW

      You know, I think it organizes matter into more and more complex forms, you know, including the human brain. But that, you know, [laughs] that enrages scientists-

    13. JS

      Yeah

    14. AW

      ... when I try to talk that way.

    15. JS

      Do you think we'll ever be able to prove the existence of consciousness in-

    16. AW

      Well, this is what-

    17. JS

      ... in a way that, in a language, in a way that science-

    18. AW

      I, I think this is what I see as part of the psychedelic awakening-

    19. JS

      Right

    20. AW

      ... because I think that, that this really has the potential to, to chip away at that materialistic paradigm and the influence it now has on our way of thinking. There is, you know, an, a name for, uh, this idea that consciousness is primary. It's called panpsychism.

    21. JS

      Mm.

    22. AW

      And that used to be, you know, uh, no scientist would ad- you know, look at that, and now that's become a respectable movement in philosophy, you know, idea that everything is consciousness, down to atoms.

    23. JS

      Mm.

    24. AW

      And, uh, and I, I look forward to seeing that grow and have greater and greater influence.

    25. JS

      Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've, I've always considered consciousness to be like the first self.

    26. AW

      Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

    27. JS

      Uh, and, and you know, obviously from a spiritual perspective, but even the expl- explanation behind so many near-death experiences-

    28. AW

      Yeah

    29. JS

      ... or out-of-body experiences-

    30. AW

      Yeah

  18. 1:07:18 – 1:08:33

    Born with the fascination of the mind and body wellness

    1. JS

      these are two great starters, uh, and look out for Andrew's new book, which I'm sure he'll be back on the show to talk about-

    2. AW

      I would love to

    3. JS

      ... uh, when it comes together. So Andrew, thank you so much for your time and energy. Thank you for being here. Uh, it's actually just wonderful being in your presence too, and, uh, I, I love how much, you know, life you've lived and, and it sounds like you have so many more incredible experiences and stories to share that I look forward to learning.

    4. AW

      Okay.

    5. JS

      Um, but thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your, your journey, your work. Thank you for, for giving us so much of a great education today.

    6. AW

      You're very welcome.

    7. JS

      Amazing. Everyone who's been listening and watching back at home, make sure you tag, uh, Dr. Andrew Weil and I on Instagram, on Twitter, on TikTok, whatever platform you use, and let us know what you learned from this episode. I hope this gave you an insight into a world that you're probably hearing about but may not have too much information on. Maybe you are an expert, maybe you knew all of this, but hopefully this will help you introduce it to a friend who may not be as aware as well. Uh, again, thank you so much for listening. Make sure you go and follow Andrew across social media. If you're a fan, go and order some of the books as well, and thank you so much for joining us on On Purpose. I'll see you on the next one. If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain

Episode duration: 1:08:33

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