Dr. Nicole LePera ON: Why You Feel Stuck in Your Past & Finding Self-Awareness to Heal From Trauma

Dr. Nicole LePera 0:00 Getting to a root of trauma, speaking of voices, a lot of the voices we are hearing, like you said, those negative voices in our head, um, the very patterned ones, the habitual ones, I call them, they're, them- those are stories. They could be a big indicator of the root of trauma, in a sense. So to be clear, um, because I am asked often, like, "Do we have to know?" Right? So the, the, the gist of this question is, is there an uncovering? Do we have to go back to that moment?

Jay Shetty 0:29 [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, you know that we get this amazing opportunity to sit down with minds from the worlds of celebrity and music, all the way through to experts in their field, and thought leaders, business leaders, and today's guest is someone that I've been wanting to speak to for a long, long time. I saw so many of her interviews. I read her book. She's a number one New York Times bestselling author of a book called How to Do the Work. I highly recommend it. We'll put the link to the book in the comments so you can go and grab a copy. We've been DM'ing away, and she's finally here today. I'm talking about none other than Dr. Nicole LePera. Nicole, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Nicole LePera 1:24 Jay, thank you for having me.

Jay Shetty 1:25 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 1:25 I've been knowing you and your work, so the fact that our paths have crossed right now, it's truly an honor for me, so thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:31 Well, I was so happy to see the success of your book, and when I saw it come up, I literally saw everyone posting about it and everyone talking about it, and I just loved how clearly you've been articulating your message so effectively on Instagram, all the way through to the book, and I'm so just happy, and congratulations on, on all the amazing success. It's fun to watch.

Dr. Nicole LePera 1:51 Thank you. It, it's wild even still to hear when it's, when I am introed that I have a book and this thing that obviously I dedicated so many hours of my life to. It's still hard to believe in, in a lot of ways. Even just the whole of this journey, I would have never imagined. I think it was July 2018 when I popped up my first Instagram square. I would have never anticipated, I should say, kind of the journey that it's been, though.

Jay Shetty 2:13 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 2:13 It is an honor, and I'm grateful for every moment of it.

Jay Shetty 2:16 Well, you're helping people think about psychology in a completely different way and holistic psychology, and can you

Jay Shetty 2:23 share with us, when you say The Work, describe to us what you define as The Work. When you say How to Do the Work, what is The Work from your perspective?

Dr. Nicole LePera 2:31 Yeah, so The Work actually, uh, you know, kind of my concept of it really came out of the traditional way that I had once been working. So coming through a system where I was trained as a clinical psychologist, I had a practice. I had the clients that came in week after week. Um, on my own side of, the personal side of things, I struggled with anxiety, um, I think a not- a lot of us do. Um, was in all of the different types of treatment, and what I saw several years into my practice was, the number one word that comes to mind was a stuckness. All of these humans, myself included, that had increasing amounts of insight, right? Awareness. Oh, I might even know where these patterns come from that no longer serve me, and I definitely might even have a plan of action to create change, to do something different the next time so that I obviously don't have to live those consequences. Yet what I would come to see, and with increasing amounts of frustration and even hopelessness, is that inability to, as I say, bridge that gap.

Jay Shetty 3:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 3:27 So for me, The Concept of The Work, the title of the book, really kind of illuminates the fact that it does take numerous daily choices that we begin to make each day, and that there, of course, is a reason why so many of us are stuck. So from that really low point, I would go to kind of admit even, from my own personal life, and of course being the hired healer in the room, the person who's supposed to impart these individuals with the tools, it was quite low. I really understood one of the reasons why. It's because we weren't working what I now call holistically. In the field, we really just kind of chopped off the mind. You kind of introed by saying, "We talk to these minds." I was giggling because our minds are attached to a body.

Jay Shetty 4:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 4:09 And until we really understand, um, that we are a whole person, in my opinion, a mind, body, and soul, so many of us are going to continue to remain stuck.

Jay Shetty 4:18 Mm-hmm. And so what actually brought you to extending that out? I think we're all grown up with spiritually we would call the bodily concept of life like this. You're engrossed in the bodily conception of life. When was

Jay Shetty 4:33 it for you that you started to realize that we were more than this body and that we were affected by more than what happens to us physically? When was that for you, and how did that come about?

Dr. Nicole LePera 4:42 It was pretty much in real time with, you know, my practice that, that was there, that existed, um, because on the personal side of things, you know, all of the tools that I thought I had had, um, weren't working, and I also started to kind of have breakthrough symptoms, for lack of a better word. Um, anxiety that was somewhat manageable was coming back again, feeling very unmanageable. Um, and I actually started to have some physical symptoms. I started to faint. Um, I had never had episodes of fainting. Um, started to forget my words mid-sentence. Like, beyond just, I think, the very natural, "Oh, my m- my thoughts wandered," it was a scary feeling. Um, so it actually came in a moment of panic. When, like most of us do, I went online, um, looking for what I was convinced at that point was probably something wrong in my brain, yet at that point, I didn't have my why. Because when I revisited The s- few memories of my childhood that I had, I didn't have those big glaring moments that I was taught in school might map on to memory issues or to the same symptoms, the peaks in anxiety that I was having. I didn't have any explanation. So I went online, like I said, as many of us do, um, searching for the medical thing that I was gonna find wrong in my brain, and I actually was met with this whole new literature, um, s- specifically around epigenetics in particular, um, coming again from a system where I was taught your genes were it. Um, you had the genetics that you were born with, and you really had limited ability to create change. So for me, hearing otherwise, hearing that, yes, of course, we're all born with genetic components, and then we have an environment, um, which has multiple, you know, aspects of it, the external events, the people around us that really do impact those genes. So I wouldn't say I believed in epigenetics at that point. Um, it was an interesting theory. Like I say, it kind of just slightly-

Jay Shetty 6:35 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 6:35 ... opened the door that a very big part of me didn't feel was my story. Okay.

Jay Shetty 6:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 6:40 This is great, all of these amazing stories I read. Oh, these humans create change, come back from incurable illnesses. I'm definitely gonna be the person who that doesn't work for. Yet it at least opened the door of possibility, and then of course, it took many daily small steps, as I call them, daily promises that I kept in my own life to begin to find out how to utilize the environment around us, how to make different choices, and how to create change. So again, I would lie if I said, "Oh, that changed my world in one fell swoop"-

Jay Shetty 7:08 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 7:09 ... "and off I went." Absolutely not. I mean, I think us humans, we have to live the experience to believe it. However, it, it began my journey, 'cause up until then, I was taught that that, that door was closed.

Jay Shetty 7:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 7:21 There was no possibility.

Jay Shetty 7:22 And for

Jay Shetty 7:23 those that are new to the idea of epigenetics, can you break down for us, uh, what that is and how that's something someone can start to work on sitting from the comfort of their home?

Dr. Nicole LePera 7:32 Yeah, so epigenetics, you know, does highlight the fact that we are all born and we have these inborn things, genetics, that are passed on through generations. However, it's the choices we're making. How much sleep are we getting? How much stress is in our, in our environment? More in particularly, how much support do we have to deal with this stress? What are we eating? Are we getting the nutrients? And really, the list goes on. And then an interaction between the genetic, you know, components of us and those choices, then we get, start to see either symptoms. We get that diagnosis. We get that disease, if you will, or again, here comes the possibility that we don't. So the change begins, I, I always say two parts to change. The one part is awareness, beginning to see from a conscious mind. I love how you, all of your work on presence. I couldn't agree more that it becomes the foundation for change. Many of us have to just learn how to see ourselves day in and day out because most of us are living from our subconscious.

Jay Shetty 8:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 8:31 We're living that autopilot. We're not even really aware. We might think we're getting more sleep than we are. We might think we're eating in a more healthy way than we are. So consciousness, right, creates that opportunity then to begin to make those new choices. So change, in my opinion, comes when we become conscious and then gift ourself with choice. We make small interventions. We maybe try to sleep a bit more, try to navigate our stress differently, and then again, we can mitigate those symptoms that many of us are feeling stuck in.

Jay Shetty 8:59 Yeah, so it really is this 360-degree view of life. Like, you've talked about everything from nutrition to sleep to the choices that we make, and you use this term in your book. You say, like, we are o- you're your own healer, this idea that you're the healer of yourself. I think for a lot of us, we often look outwards for healing.

Dr. Nicole LePera 9:16 Yes.

Jay Shetty 9:17 We hope that someone else will come and heal us. We go to our doctors, or we may even go to a guide, and tell me about that. The power in that statement is so true, but it's almost so hard to accept often. I know sometimes even in myself, I, I'll get to the point where I'm like, "Oh, I just want someone to come change my life," right?

Dr. Nicole LePera 9:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:35 Like, we always have that feeling, like someone's gonna come and find me, and someone's gonna come and change my life, and that, whether that's come from our childhood or wherever it is, how do you empower

Jay Shetty 9:46 yourself with the belief truly that you are your own healer, and how do you really accept that? What does it take to really embrace that statement as something real?

Dr. Nicole LePera 9:56 Yeah, and I would agree with you. I mean, there were so many ways that I outsourced, as I say-

Jay Shetty 10:01 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 10:01 ... um, my inner knowing. A lot of it is very conditioned. We're taught to do that. I could even make a, a big global statement that I think on the macro level, a lot of us in society, regardless of the culture you come from, are taught some level of that-

Jay Shetty 10:15 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 10:15 ... externalization, right? Whether you look to your religious sect, um, or your family or, again, the doctor, um, there is someone, I think, that many of us have been taught from a very early age. Sometimes it's not even directly-

Jay Shetty 10:29 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 10:29 ... where we're, you know, told this person knows better. Sometimes it's indirectly.

Jay Shetty 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 10:33 We're seeing our parent figures, our caregivers outsourcing their knowing to someone else, that then we begin to do the same thing, and I was one of those people. I mean, one might even say I was trained in a profession to be that outsourced-

Jay Shetty 10:46 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 10:46 ... guide for someone else, and it never sat well for a couple different reasons. A, it did feel very, you know, it kind of continued to precipitate this disempowerment, this idea that someone else knows better, and it actually brought up a question for me, which is, how could someone else know better when they didn't live our life? They don't make sense of things the way our minds make sense of things.

Jay Shetty 11:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 11:10 Um, and I learned very early on in my training that it is natural for us to assume, to hear somewhat of a similarity between, between maybe my story and if you were to share with me your story, and then to assume a much greater similarity.

Jay Shetty 11:25 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 11:25 Oh, you said anxiety? I have that, so I, you must have the exact same version I do.

Jay Shetty 11:30 Yes.

Dr. Nicole LePera 11:31 And I learned very early on in my clinical training, or I was, it was suggested to me not to do that because we could be using the same words. We could think we mean the same things, but there's so much individual variation. So now going back to this concept of this person outside of me who has that intimate awareness of me and/or who's able to show up as me in those given moments, I mean, now it gets really silly logistically, right? No, I'm me. I need to navigate the next time that happens, so I need those tools. Um, peeling it back, you know, I believe that that sense of knowing, that healer, is the state that we're all born into.

Jay Shetty 12:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 12:08 I do believe that we're a full, you know, whole being, worthy even with our essence or that thing that makes us us, our- ... purpose-

Jay Shetty 12:16 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 12:16 ... that we can then live out into the world, and then our conditioning happens. And now here comes in that yun- onion analogy, right?

Jay Shetty 12:23 Yes.

Dr. Nicole LePera 12:23 All of the layers start to form around us, and then we become an adult who isn't living from that pure state, and again, who might have been conditioned to look outside of ourselves. So for many of us, this begins as a concept. I'm sitting here telling you, "You know it's internal. Peel back." For many of us, it becomes when we take that first step that begins a journey of many steps, because change, of course, doesn't happen like a light switch, like I call it.

Jay Shetty 12:47 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 12:47 Like many of us want to, right? I flip the switch, and now I'm different. Though the more we empower ourself through that consciousness to create that change, then we can begin to embrace that reality that we can be the healer, that we can make choices that honor our best interests, and then that re- kind of peel back those layers and bring us back to that state of wholeness. So again, it begins as a theory, as all things do, until you begin to empower yourself to create these changes in your life.

Jay Shetty 13:15 Yeah. You mentioned self-awareness a few times there, and the idea of inner knowing and self-knowing. I find that, and, and this is what you're speaking about, the, the theory versus when it turns into reality, but I find that, don't you think so many of us sometimes we're like, "I know when I do that. I know what I need to change," and it's not even about shifting into action. It's like there's this almost it feels like an instinctive pull to do the opposite.

Dr. Nicole LePera 13:42 Yes.

Jay Shetty 13:42 Right? And it's so strong, and, uh, from a spiritual point of view, it's, it's described as lust, and not lust for the, for someone you're attracted to, not in such a gross way, but lust in the sense of this unflinching reaction, pendulum swing that's pulling you away from where you truly want to be. Tell us what's happening

Jay Shetty 14:04 there. Why is it that we know that we need to eat this right, healthy food-

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:07 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 14:07 ... but we are so attracted to the unhealthy food? We know we should be waking up earlier and sleeping earlier to get better quality sleep, but we're not doing that. What is that pull that's kind of just holding us back almost? It feels like someone's literally-

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 14:21 ... grabbing us by the collar and, and pulling us back.

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:24 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 14:24 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:24 And you used the word in, in your description there, instinctive, and I would go ahead and argue that it is. It's outside of our awareness-

Jay Shetty 14:31 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:31 ... and it feels very alluring in all of the ways. We might even have-

Jay Shetty 14:35 Alluring is the right word, yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:36 ... right, really high feelings, almost as if we can't resist it. We are rendered choiceless.

Jay Shetty 14:41 Yes. Yes, that's it. That's the be- yeah, that's exactly.

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:43 And that's real. I mean, you describe the reality that many of us are living-

Jay Shetty 14:47 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:47 ... and that would describe that stuck place that I was referencing earlier.

Jay Shetty 14:51 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 14:51 And like I said, that, in my opinion, when we, when we continue to bear witness to, "Oh, here's that old habit again, and now I'm living the consequences. Here they come again," many of us begin to feel shameful, right?

Jay Shetty 15:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 15:03 We might even have well-meaning loved ones that are looking over our shoulder [laughs] wondering, you know, why the hell we're continuing to do this, also continuing to increase our shame. And some of us now even begin to entertain these ideas that, "Maybe I am broken. Maybe there is something just at my core that's creating this." And-

Jay Shetty 15:20 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 15:20 ... what is at all of our core as humans is the desire to remain in the familiar.

Jay Shetty 15:26 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 15:26 Right? And so what happens, and again, our familiar, all of the things that have happened to us beginning at a very early stage have, I like to talk about the brain and-

Jay Shetty 15:36 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 15:36 ... kind of what actually happens, begins to lay down pathways, quite literally, neurons, right, that fire together, wire together. So what happens is we have all of these ver- very rote, very patterned ways of being that many of us have been rehearsing since, since birth, right?

Jay Shetty 15:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 15:52 We always do that same thing. Usually, again, this begins out of pain, out of experiences where we've had to adapt, right? The things that we're doing come from a certain place. Yes, they might have some long-term consequences, but usually in the immediate we were avoiding something, some form of pain, some form of discomfort, and/or we were attempting to feel love, to feel connected to our immediate family or the people around us, the people who were in charge of meeting our needs. However, we repeat and repeat and repeat, and then those pathways get really strong. So then we come, say, to, you know, uh, we decide we wanna change. We've lived these consequences long enough. We see some sort- sort of helper, or we read a book, and we have a new game plan of action. Now we're again using a different part of our mind. We're in that conscious part of our mind. However, that drive to that familiar is still there. It lives in our subconscious, and it's very strong.

Jay Shetty 16:47 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 16:48 So what happens, as I put it, is we meet that resistance, either that overwhelming feeling, that drive, that compulsion, like you described it. Some of us, it just stays in our thinking mind. All of the reasons why this isn't gonna work. "It's so silly. You should stop doing this." Before long, if I listen to either of those things, the thoughts I'm thinking or the feelings I'm having that are new, that are unfamiliar, before long I am back in those ruts.

Jay Shetty 17:11 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 17:11 And it's not because I feel good. It's because I feel like I'm used to feeling, and anything out of those bounds can feel threatening. A lot of our stuckness, again, is coming from that drive to safety, the reality that the unfamiliar, according to our subconscious, is threatening, 'cause we don't-

Jay Shetty 17:27 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 17:28 ... actually know what comes next.

Jay Shetty 17:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 17:29 So those patterns are what is safest, keeping us, again, stuck in those patterns.

Jay Shetty 17:34 Yeah. It's crazy how it works. I mean, I was reading a, you know, I've read the studies that say you have 60 to 80,000 thoughts per day.

Dr. Nicole LePera 17:42 Wow.

Jay Shetty 17:42 80% of them are negative, and 80% of those are on repeat.

Dr. Nicole LePera 17:46 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 17:47 And it's the repeat part-

Dr. Nicole LePera 17:48 Yeah

Jay Shetty 17:49 ... that really makes me go, "Wow, we need to drive a train through this, or we need to somehow break this pattern-

Dr. Nicole LePera 17:57 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 17:57 ... because this pattern will just keep repeating and keep cycling and keep strengthening." And so we need to slowly weaken the pattern. I wanted to ask you that. Is it that we slowly

Jay Shetty 18:07 chip away and weaken the pattern, or do we need something big? ... like a freight train to come drive through it. Which, which one is it, and is it both? Is it neither? Is it, you know, what, what's the process?

Dr. Nicole LePera 18:20 So the pathway to change, the kind of what happens can happen, you know, a slow gradual descent, um, as happened for me. You know, I gradually went a- across life. I checked all of the boxes that I thought were gonna make me happy. There wasn't a cataclysmic moment when I was 28 or whenever this began that kind of initiated it. It was slow and gradual. Some of us are initiated into change when something cataclysmic happens.

Jay Shetty 18:42 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 18:42 We lose the relationship. We, you know, life does shift and change. So both ways can be pathways in. Um, the pathway through change I think is slow and gradual.

Jay Shetty 18:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 18:53 Because what happens, again, because we're always looking to create safety, overwhelming change, changing our life from top to bottom between now and tomorrow could send us right back into that-

Jay Shetty 19:04 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 19:04 ... same adaptive mechanism that we've learned at one point to keep us safe. Now, this isn't to say that people listening haven't had success changing lives-

Jay Shetty 19:12 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 19:12 ... from top to bottom. Of course, though when we're working with the principles of the subconscious, our drive to stay in that familiar, it's those gradual victories, um, because what we're looking to do is create the consistent habit.

Jay Shetty 19:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 19:24 Like I was referencing earlier, there is no light switch. There's no d- making these new choices, you know, here, there, maybe this week, maybe not next week. We wanna integrate these new choices into our habit, into now what we do, how we eat, how much we sleep.

Jay Shetty 19:39 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 19:39 So consistency is key. Smaller choices are much easier to maintain consistently-

Jay Shetty 19:45 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 19:45 ... than 5 or 10 new things all at once.

Jay Shetty 19:47 Yeah, one of the things, I, I'm just thinking about this because it's been something I've been doing recently. So during my time as a monk, we did a lot of tough physical austerities, and what I found through all of that is that my mind strengthened, but my body decided not to want those physical austerities again.

Dr. Nicole LePera 20:03 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:03 And, and so I, I for a while, I just was like, "Nah, I'm, I'm good."

Dr. Nicole LePera 20:08 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:08 Like, "I'm good." And then more recently, I've started... Well, it was actually because one friend forced me to do a cold plunge and then do a-

Dr. Nicole LePera 20:18 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:18 ... do jump out of a plane and go skydiving. And so when I did that, I was like, "Oh," and, and I did it because of this friend. I was like, "You know, I want, I wanna do it with him. It'll be fun." And so when I did it, it, it broke through an old trauma pattern, an old barrier that was in my mind, which was I don't like physically difficult things anymore-

Dr. Nicole LePera 20:38 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:38 ... because I did so many. Uh, and when I say so many, I mean things like we would sleep on cold stone floors, cold floors. We'd wake up often if we were traveling in puddles this high, like, we would, uh, you'd be sleeping in extreme hot and cold without even thinking about it. You'd go days without eating. Like, there were a lot of things that we did that were great for my mind, but-

Dr. Nicole LePera 20:58 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 20:58 ... for my body struggled. And so now I've started trying to do... After I had that breakthrough, so I needed to do something-

Dr. Nicole LePera 21:06 Mm

Jay Shetty 21:06 ... as radical as that, like skydiving, to feel like I could go beyond that physical discomfort, and recently I got reintroduced to it. So what I found was I was like, "Oh, wow, I had a breakthrough," and then four months have gone by, and someone was like, "Do you wanna do a cold plunge?" And I was like, "No way."

Dr. Nicole LePera 21:23 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 21:23 And all of a sudden I was back to that old pattern. And I went again, and I broke it, and then now I've been going every week. And not only am I spending longer in the cold, I'm feeling more comfortable in it, I'm getting, I'm understanding how I can use my breathwork and meditation-

Dr. Nicole LePera 21:37 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 21:37 ... in the cold. And, and what's been fascinating for me is I'm like, I want to go every week on purpose. Because if I go every week, then that's no longer a fear anymore, and I see every week that my time gets longer-

Dr. Nicole LePera 21:50 Yeah

Jay Shetty 21:50 ... my breath gets better. I'm able to heat my body by breathing-

Dr. Nicole LePera 21:53 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 21:53 ... because of my breathwork. I'm starting seeing the power of my mind and my breathwork over my body, uh, in those scenarios. So I, I'm, I, what I'm saying is I can relate to what you're saying-

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:03 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 22:04 ... and that's been something very real for me in the last few months that I've been working through. But you talk a lot about these old, deep-rooted traumas and how they block us. How do we uncover the root of a trauma? I find, like, so often we're dealing with the branches or the leaves or the, you know, the fruits of a trauma, the negative fruits, the poisonous fruits. How do you figure out what the

Jay Shetty 22:26 root of a trauma is?

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:27 Yeah, really good question. I was giggling when you were sharing all of that because I very much, my body, I run.

Jay Shetty 22:32 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:32 Um, I did not have all of that training in doing difficult things, though I was an athlete and still. And I share this often within my community. That first thought when I go on that hike that the elevation-

Jay Shetty 22:42 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:42 ... right, starts right from the beginning. I'm not even 20 steps in, and I'm like, "Maybe I, maybe I don't really wanna be hiking today."

Jay Shetty 22:47 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:47 And right, just for me in that moment-

Jay Shetty 22:49 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:49 ... identifying that's the old voice.

Jay Shetty 22:51 Yes.

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:52 And I can gift myself with choice, right? I can choose to say, "You know what? My body is fatigued right now, and I will listen to it."

Jay Shetty 22:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 22:57 Or I can identify it as being, you know, that old voice. So getting to a root of trauma, speaking of voices, a lot of the voices we are hearing, like you said, those negative voices in our head, um, the very patterned ones, the habitual ones, I call them, they're, them, those are stories.

Jay Shetty 23:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 23:14 They can be a big indicator of the root of trauma, in a sense.

Jay Shetty 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 23:19 So to be clear, um, because I am asked often, like, do we have to know, right? So the gist of this question is, is there an uncovering? Do we have to go back to that moment or those many moments that began this trauma?

Jay Shetty 23:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 23:33 And I'm often asked because when I share my story, part of it includes a, a large absence of those early memories-

Jay Shetty 23:40 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 23:40 ... of really memories up until the more recent past for me.

Jay Shetty 23:44 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 23:45 So reviewing my childhood for me in that kind of movie screened way to find the root is quite difficult-

Jay Shetty 23:51 Right, yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 23:51 ... 'cause I don't have those. So, you know, the natural question that follows is, "If I can't find the exact root, can I heal it?"

Jay Shetty 23:58 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 23:59 So while I'll say those stories are helpful, those patterns, those reactions that we have, those activating moments, they can all give us clues. To actually have the particular moment in all of its details is, in my opinion, not- ... possible for some of us and not necessarily fully necessary-

Jay Shetty 24:19 Wow

Dr. Nicole LePera 24:19 ... for others because what we can work with is the pattern we're stuck in because it contains it, right?

Jay Shetty 24:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 24:25 The book The Body Keeps the Score-

Jay Shetty 24:27 Yes, great book

Dr. Nicole LePera 24:27 ... was one of the first, right, offerings of this idea, this concept that our body is remembering. So even if my mind, right, can't put on that movie and say, "Oh, that's where it began to happen"-

Jay Shetty 24:37 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 24:38 ... my body is reenacting it in a moment that's similar to that moment. So our start point can be, what are those patterns, right? If I can drop into my mind, first becoming aware of how busy it is, how much s- how ma- many thoughts are running through it, and then I can begin to watch, and most of us will begin to see the story, the story that we've made of us, the story that we've made of our relationships, our path in life, whatever it might be. The patterns is where we wanna begin our exploration.

Jay Shetty 25:08 Got it.

Dr. Nicole LePera 25:08 And again, we can just start with where are we stuck, right? What happens when I feel a really big emotion? That's a great place to begin looking. Oftentimes that's something interpersonal, right, that happens in our relationships, when I start to feel something really big, and then we can drop in. Okay, what is the story I've told myself about this really big thing? Um, what am I doing, right, to create safety in this moment? And then of course, can I begin to make new choices? So to get to the root, we can start where we are, and we can start in those very patterned ways, the things that we can see ourself day in and day out once we're watching with consciousness, where we're becoming stuck. That can be our entry point for the work.

Jay Shetty 25:46 Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for clarifying that. I think that's such a great distinction between the root and the pattern and the recognition that you don't need to do that if you can't, and it's, it's not possible, and that's not going to stop you from healing, which I think is gonna be-

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:01 Yes

Jay Shetty 26:01 ... so good for so many people to hear because I think you can almost get lost in the trap of, like-

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:05 Yes

Jay Shetty 26:05 ... where did this start?

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:06 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 26:07 Where was that moment? Was it this? Was it that? And that can just-

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:10 Right

Jay Shetty 26:10 ... debilitate you even more, I guess.

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:11 Right.

Jay Shetty 26:12 So-

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:12 And ultimately, the knowing of the story still remains in our thinking mind, right?

Jay Shetty 26:17 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:17 I can go back and maybe even just tell the story as sometimes our therapy does.

Jay Shetty 26:22 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:22 It offers, like, this continuous just telling of my story.

Jay Shetty 26:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:26 But again, kind of bringing this whole conversation full circle, until I learn how to embody a new response in that moment, my story remains in my mind, right? So even unearthing the cause of it-

Jay Shetty 26:37 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:37 ... won't shift then how my body reacts in that moment.

Jay Shetty 26:41 Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 26:41 Won't allow me to then integrate a new feeling or make a new choice so that I can actually create change.

Jay Shetty 26:47 Got it. That makes sense. What are some of the practices and

Jay Shetty 26:52 methods that you've used, learned, ones that you've shared with people, practical things that people can do that you think have really moved the needle for people in this regard, whether that's awareness of a trauma, whether that's-

Dr. Nicole LePera 27:04 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 27:04 ... starting the healing process? What have been some of your favorite ones? I'm, I'm intrigued.

Dr. Nicole LePera 27:07 Yeah. So I think the most impactful one is the one that keeps coming up with that idea of consciousness, um, first being, becoming aware of how unconscious-

Jay Shetty 27:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 27:15 ... many of us are living. By now we've all heard the word autopilot. We all know that upwards of 90% of our day we're in it. Um, it becomes really impactful when you actually see it, right?

Jay Shetty 27:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 27:25 When you see yourself no sooner opening your eyes and s- shifting right into that same thing you do first thing every morning.

Jay Shetty 27:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 27:31 Right? Being able to bear witness from the conscious mind creates, in my opinion, the greatest impact 'cause what most of us see-

Jay Shetty 27:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 27:38 ... is how unconscious we are, how we're not even giving ourselves the opportunity-

Jay Shetty 27:42 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 27:42 ... to make a new choice because we're not there. We're not in the present moment. We're not able to shift our attention from wherever else it might be. Um, for many of us it's lost in our thinking mind, ruminating about the fight this morning, worrying about tomorrow. Um, if you're like me, you might just be somewhere else. I call it my spaceship.

Jay Shetty 28:00 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:00 I just know I'm not here. Um, so for many of us, building those choices in throughout the day. Um, suggestions I often give, because we all walk around with a phone, set an alarm for random times throughout your waking day.

Jay Shetty 28:12 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:12 Right? So you don't even remember that you set an alarm, and at 1:30 your phone's buzzing.

Jay Shetty 28:16 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:16 Why is it buzzing? This is for your consciousness check-in. The first thing we can do is note where, what were you paying attention to.

Jay Shetty 28:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:23 Were you really immersed in what you were doing or who-

Jay Shetty 28:25 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:25 ... you were talking to? Chances are probably not.

Jay Shetty 28:28 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:28 You were somewhere else. Right now this gifts you the first opportunity to use either another tool you've already spoken of, your breath-

Jay Shetty 28:36 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:36 ... right, to use that to focus your attention on your active breathing. Or if you're doing something somatic, maybe you're eating, maybe turn your attention to actually tasting the meal in front of you that you're o- otherwise shoveling down. The more we create more moments of that consciousness of, A, the awareness of where is my attention, and then, B, that control, the more now we're becoming present to what is.

Jay Shetty 28:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 28:59 And now we can really individualize the work that we're doing. If I become present to a hyperactive body, so for me this was the commonplace, once I landed my spaceship, I realized how stressed out my body was.

Jay Shetty 29:12 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 29:12 My heart rate was always elevated a bit. I had a bit of shallow breathing, right? So now I can maybe use breathwork. I can intentionally change the flow of my breath and actually create a new feeling in my body. Um, so for many of us, again, it begins with choice, and within that choice we can begin to reconnect. For s- for so many of us, the what happens next comes from what your body is telling you, right?

Jay Shetty 29:36 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 29:36 What is your body feeling? Are you feeling expansive and excited based on what you're doing, or are, are you feeling constricted and scared?

Jay Shetty 29:44 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 29:44 And if you're feeling the latter, can you create a change? Can you breathe differently? Can you meet a need? Maybe you're hungry once you tune in and you can go get a snack. Can you feed your body? Can you tend to your body? When we're conscious, we can hear our body.

Jay Shetty 29:57 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 29:57 And our body has a lot of wisdom that so many of us aren't paying attention to for many good reasons, because being in our body was f- a fearful place, a scary place.

Jay Shetty 30:06 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 30:06 We might have been abused when we were within our bodies. So again, building that bridge, creating that reconnection can help us then figure out, 'cause I'm sure a listener's like, "Great, I'm in my body. What next?"

Jay Shetty 30:17 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 30:17 Um, the clues are there-

Jay Shetty 30:19 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 30:19 ... the more we, again, peel back that onion and learn how to listen.

Jay Shetty 30:23 I love what you said about creating a new feeling in our bodies because I think that- That's really what we struggle with. We think feelings come from-

Dr. Nicole LePera 30:33 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 30:33 ... how people treat us-

Dr. Nicole LePera 30:34 Yeah

Jay Shetty 30:34 ... or where we visit or the place we just went to. But feelings are created and monitored also by us, and again, it comes back to the point about choice, but the idea that... I, I say this all the time, like, before I go on stage, I haven't done it for so long, and I miss it.

Dr. Nicole LePera 30:50 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:50 But whenever I go on stage, I still get nervous, and I've been public speaking since I was 11 years old and have done it religiously, and I will still get nervous. And I have learned to realize that that shows I care, and so I feel good about that. So now when I feel that nervousness, I'm not feeling nervousness, I'm feeling care and compassion.

Dr. Nicole LePera 31:12 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 31:12 I'm thinking, "I care about my audience. I care about how I'm going to serve today. I care about my connection with them today, so that is why I'm feeling this way." And then usually using breathwork, I'll change my heart rate and the way it's feeling, and that creates a feeling as opposed to accepting the signal feeling that I'm receiving, which is nerves, anxiety, or whatever it may be. Of course, it becomes harder when it's been so repeated, and that's what we've been breaking down. I wanna know, when you, when you talk about holistic,

Jay Shetty 31:44 I wanna hear more about the spiritual soul side of your work and where you've found that integration between that and science and the deep resets that you've done over the years. I'm intrigued to find what are some of the parallels or what are some of your own personal spiritual quests or curiosities that you might be on right now that, uh, you could possibly share with us?

Dr. Nicole LePera 32:08 Yeah, absolutely, and I appreciate you asking, um, because that is the third component, right? So we have mind. We've talked about body. Um, and I do believe that there's a soul, a spiritual entity, whether we wanna call it that or essence, um, that makes us us. And I'm speaking this from a diehard scientist, that if you would've asked me about a decade ago if anything religious-based, anything spirituality-based, I would've turned a blind eye to it. I wouldn't have believed in it, um, because again, it wasn't at that point, to my knowledge at least, mapped on in the science of knowing.

Jay Shetty 32:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 32:40 Um, so again, this wasn't something for me that was an always part of my journey. This was something I've come to discover. Um, and what I've come to discover, and the simplest way that I describe what soul or spirit is to me, is the uniqueness that makes each of us different, right? There's something in me that's gonna give me the life experience, the personality, the, the me-ness that's different from you. Um, and at this point, whether we agree on that it's coming from a spiritual place or a soul-based place or whether it just is an essence, an is thing, I think many of us in the collective are beginning to honor that there is something else, a deeper sense of knowing.

Jay Shetty 33:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 33:20 Scientifically, um, where I believe this inner knowing maps onto is a major organ that gets very little, um, you know, kind of time in the spotlight or at least is getting more so these days. It's not our brain at all. It comes from our heart.

Jay Shetty 33:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 33:35 Um, again, that whole place that I keep referring to, I believe it's when we're fully connected to our heart space. Um, we now know that our heart has an incredibly strong electromagnetic field. It's sensing the world around me. It's sending out signals to the world around me, even beyond the magnetic field that my brain entails. So our heart, the, the me-ness, I believe, is contained in that scientific space. Um, very grateful for the HeartMath Institute, whose major goal is to put out this type of research. Um, but again, I think it's peeling back the layers, understanding that there is a s- deeper place of knowing that is interacting with our general way of being, whether we're aware of it or not. Everyone wants to know, "Where's my intuition?"

Jay Shetty 34:18 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 34:19 "Where's my purpose," right, for, for this conversation. And again, I believe that comes from that heart space. So many of us, though, are disconnected from it or have grown distrustful of it, that we don't look to it to listen.

Jay Shetty 34:32 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 34:32 So being holistic, again, means honoring that there, there is something deeper. There is a place in me, not in someone else, that knows what my path and my journey is. And again, it's cultivating that connection and beginning to listen and then, of course, walking forth in that truth regardless of [laughs] what the world around me is doing or saying about it, which is a whole other, you know, kind of aspect of doing and living in the work that I think many of us are up against these days.

Jay Shetty 34:59 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that, too, and I love, I love hearing... I think for so many years there were, when you look at some of the most phenomenal scientists of all time, like whether it's Einstein or, you know, others who've, who've been able to bring together spirituality and science so wonderfully, and I, I always love hearing that kind of integration and integrated approach because I do think we need both-

Dr. Nicole LePera 35:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 35:21 ... to have a healthy and powerful and insightful conversation about how we feel. I love what you're sharing about the heart. How do people start to notice

Jay Shetty 35:31 the difference in the voices in their head between their heart, their mind-

Dr. Nicole LePera 35:37 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 35:37 ... their ego stories? Like, is there a way? Have you found a way? Have you come across something that has helped you notice the difference between when your heart is involved in a conversation?

Dr. Nicole LePera 35:48 Yeah, and I think so, again, first is the practice of looking, and I'm saying that very intentionally because I don't think, be- for many different reasons, one of which being intimidation, we don't look inward. We don't take a moment to turn off the now endless distractions of our external world-

Jay Shetty 36:03 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 36:03 ... and even give ourself the opportunity to begin to differentiate those voices. We're always stimulated externally or-

Jay Shetty 36:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 36:10 ... or in our thinking mind, right? So for some of us, even suggesting, right, turning it off even before you go to bed and not bringing your phone in and just giving yourself a moment of quiet when we can turn inward, for many of us, oh, it's too close to meditation, and it's too-

Jay Shetty 36:25 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 36:25 ... scary in there, and I don't want to. So for a lot of us, it's just beginning to practice, you know, walking through that discomfort so that I can begin to drop in and listen. Um, to more specifically answer the question- Our heart talks not in erratic. It doesn't knock us over the head, right, in something that feels overwhelming. It's kind of there, and it's just like a, a softer, though still understandable and hearable message. Anything that feels frenetic, anything that feels repetitive, right? Our heart's not gonna, on repeat, tell us the same thing like-

Jay Shetty 37:00 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 37:00 ... our monkey mind is, right? So our heart is gonna be that just, like, kind of behind there, slow urge, um, that's not gonna feel, I think, the spike of energy that many of us are used to or, again, the repetitiveness-

Jay Shetty 37:14 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 37:14 ... that many of us are used to hearing in our thinking mind. And all of this becomes clear when we begin to spend time inward.

Jay Shetty 37:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 37:20 Right? When you begin to notice the nature of your thought, whoever's listening, and how your thoughts kind of are reiterative and are very kind of amplified in some ways, and then learning what it's not sometimes can lead us on the road-

Jay Shetty 37:33 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 37:34 ... to what it is.

Jay Shetty 37:35 Yes. That, that makes a lot of sense. I like that. And, and you're so right. It does take that. Like, I, I know that I, the way I try and do it is for a long, long time, and I've probably mentioned this a couple of times, but I'll write down every choice I have or every opportunity I have in front of me when I'm trying to make a decision, for example, and I'll write above it the word of where I think that's coming from. So it could be, like, ego. Like, I'm make- I would choose that because it would be good for my ego.

Dr. Nicole LePera 38:08 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 38:08 Like, my ego will feel good. Or I would choose that because it will make me money, and that will be the reason, so wealth or money would be above it. And then I'm like, "Oh, I would choose that because I love it." Like, I would choose-

Dr. Nicole LePera 38:21 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 38:21 ... to do that because I love it. I choose to do that-

Dr. Nicole LePera 38:23 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 38:23 ... because whatever. And I've found that that's really helped me be really clear about looking at, looking at, like, what is, what would make me choose that? Like, what would be my reason for choosing that option, opportunity, job-

Dr. Nicole LePera 38:36 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 38:37 ... item of work, whatever it may be. And then even if I accept it because all it is is money or ego, I'm well aware now [laughs] that this is probably not gonna make me happy, but it's gonna get me this thing that I think I'm doing it for. And that very honest, transparent-

Dr. Nicole LePera 38:54 Yes

Jay Shetty 38:54 ... feel allows me to be at ease and honest about my choices and also deal with the repercussions of them when things don't work out or whatever it may be. Or even when you do what you love and it doesn't work out, you know you did it because you loved it, and, and that's all you wanted from it. And so I think that's been a really good way for me at least to distinguish between whether it's my heart, my head, my gut-

Dr. Nicole LePera 39:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 39:15 ... or-

Dr. Nicole LePera 39:15 I love that. And what's important that you're, you're referencing to or you're acknowledging or honoring is the honest piece of it. And I say that, you know, in a very intentional way again because that's hard.

Jay Shetty 39:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 39:25 It's hard for us to peel back our own onion and to look at our honest truths and to, to, to label it and be with it for what it is.

Jay Shetty 39:33 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 39:33 So many of us begin to contort things and, you know, out of shame, out of-

Jay Shetty 39:37 Yes

Dr. Nicole LePera 39:37 ... again, perhaps many moments where we did share truths in different ways, and they weren't received, um, and/or we were, you know, made to feel very badly about them.

Jay Shetty 39:48 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 39:48 So, you know, in the work I, I talk about, I think a lot, and I, you know, attempt to practice at all areas that self-honesty first.

Jay Shetty 39:56 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 39:56 Um, being honest with what it is for me in any given moment or what it isn't, just being honest before then we can even gift that honesty to someone else.

Jay Shetty 40:06 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 40:06 Because a lot of entry points to the work is, "I'm not feeling satisfied in life, in my relationships in particular. I don't feel meaningfully connected to others or the world around me," help.

Jay Shetty 40:17 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 40:17 Right? And we want to, or many of us, the pathway in, or so we think, is to change the world around us, right? Find that meaningful person, find that meaningful purpose maybe even or that path. And again, that only comes when we're first honest, when we figure out what our honest truth is, gift ourself with that, live into that, and then we begin to have-

Jay Shetty 40:39 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 40:39 ... the opportunity to live honestly then in the world. And then of course, everything begins to shift because whatever it is that we're experiencing is authentic to us.

Jay Shetty 40:50 Yeah, yeah. I find, though, isn't, isn't partly our, our rejection of self-honesty or the times we avoid being honest, that's part of our story's defense mechanism, right? Because if you're really truly honest with yourself-

Dr. Nicole LePera 41:03 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 41:03 ... you might have to change something.

Dr. Nicole LePera 41:06 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:06 And we don't want to, and so the mind or, you know, w- and that's why I'm, I'm asking you, "Where is it coming from?" That desire to be like, "Well, I, I'm not gonna be honest to myself because then that breaks my story that I've been telling myself."

Dr. Nicole LePera 41:18 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 41:19 So if I've been telling myself the story, "I'm a good person," and that helps me function in the world, now that I've made a mistake, if I accept that mistake, then maybe that's gonna break me. Does that make sense?

Dr. Nicole LePera 41:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:31 And, and so how do we kind of nurture

Jay Shetty 41:35 this idea of self-awareness and self-honesty without feeling it's gonna lead to self-destruction? I think a lot of people at work, e- even in our relationships, it's like, if I've always been the person on time, if I'm late today, I don't wanna tell people I'm late because it's gonna destroy what I've lived to build up, right?

Dr. Nicole LePera 41:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:53 If that makes sense.

Dr. Nicole LePera 41:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:54 And I think, I, I think about it in a very real way where, you know, I, I look at the life I've lived, and it's so, like, polar opposite and random and paradoxical and, but I'm like, I'm so happy with getting to express all parts of myself today that are in love with media and that I, I am a monk. You were just sharing earlier today that, you know, you were like, "I'm a Russ fan, like, I listen to Russ's music, but I'm a holistic psychologist."

Dr. Nicole LePera 42:20 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 42:20 It's like, I think the fun is in the paradoxes of people, and actually, I, I would suggest that I think if everyone looked at themself, they'd find that they were paradoxical. And the paradox is what we're scared to accept because it doesn't clearly define who you are. And so it was easier for me to be a monk than who I am today, where I'm like, "Yeah, I think like a monk, but I don't live like one." Uh, I adopt the practices of monks, but I'm a married man. I'm an entrepreneur, and I enjoy all parts of that, and I'm learning to allow myself to accept all parts of myself. Uh, but, but I, I wonder why we're so scared of the paradoxes and how we can open ourselves up to actually realize the paradox has so much joy and potential in it.

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:01 Yes. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 43:01 Does that-

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:02 100%.

Jay Shetty 43:02 And you can disagree with me too. I-

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:03 No, no, I was smiling really big-

Jay Shetty 43:05 I, I'm just... Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:05 ... because it's, it's, I mean, it's beautiful, and what you're describing is how I describe the ego.

Jay Shetty 43:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:09 Right? We all have this story of ourself that was formed at, you know, began its formation in childhood based on very real lived experiences and the feelings that we've had about them, though it's, uh, very contained. It's only a story about an aspect-

Jay Shetty 43:24 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:24 ... or a part of who we are. However, it drops into our subconscious. Anything that goes against it feels threatening, feels scary, actually shakes my core sense of self. I don't know who I am.

Jay Shetty 43:35 And to others too.

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:36 And to others, right? And so we then live our life in defense of that story, though for many of us, that story, like I said, is, is, is so small. It might not even apply to the current situation or the current choices-

Jay Shetty 43:49 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 43:49 ... that we're making day in and day out. So the goal really is to expand, is to allow in, right, through honesty, through witnessing all aspects of ourself because we all have all of those aspects of ourself, and the way it mainly comes out is when we see an aspect of ourself in someone else-

Jay Shetty 44:09 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 44:09 ... and then we don't feel negatively about ourself because we deny that that's even in there, and then we project all of that negativity onto that person.

Jay Shetty 44:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 44:18 So that's oftentimes where I offer is a great point of exploration, and I'll share one with you all. For a very long time, watching people dance on the glorious thing that is social media would make my blood boil. Watching a human just let loose, you know, very kind of in self-expression moving their body, my ego would say all sorts of things because at that point I didn't identify as a dancer. I'm definitely not someone who moves my body, not comfortably, and for sure not in public, right?

Jay Shetty 44:46 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 44:46 Meanwhile, I made it about this person that I don't know and their-

Jay Shetty 44:49 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 44:49 ... intention for dancing that I could never know-

Jay Shetty 44:51 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 44:51 ... come to know, right, that my wounding, my not feeling comfortable in my body, again, began very early on in childhood. So I wouldn't dare to be that person that danced in public.

Jay Shetty 45:02 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 45:03 Yet I felt so strongly negative of others who did. Of course, for me, that was a pathway in to begin to explore this story that I've now began to unpack. That's a great place to look, right?

Jay Shetty 45:14 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 45:14 When are you feeling so negatively about someone else might be at that place of shadow or that part-

Jay Shetty 45:21 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 45:22 ... of you that you're not willing or able to be honest. And again, we do so out of fear, out of felt threat or protection of what if the world does see this side of me-

Jay Shetty 45:31 Yeah [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 45:32 ... or what if I do allow this side of me to be alive right now? And again, honoring that fear that once was because according, at least to the way I frame the work, it did come-

Jay Shetty 45:42 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 45:42 ... at a time and a place that was adaptive. However, now we can begin to create change and embrace-

Jay Shetty 45:48 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 45:48 ... all of us, all parts of us.

Jay Shetty 45:50 That makes a lot of sense, and I'm, I'm glad that we're, I'm glad that we're aligned on that and that you were smiling as I was speaking, and I was like, "Oh, yes, someone understands it." Te- tell me about how do we stop letting other people's opinions define our choices? Because you were just talking about that right now as well, the idea that, you know, like you were maybe you're scared of putting yourself out there or now we're judging others-

Dr. Nicole LePera 46:14 Mm

Jay Shetty 46:14 ... of why they put themselves out there. How do we stop letting other people's opinions

Jay Shetty 46:19 define our choices?

Dr. Nicole LePera 46:20 Yeah, really difficult. I first wanna honor how for many of us that is part of our conditioning for all of the reasons because we had to, right, put other people in front of us, or so we thought at some time. Um, a lot of it is kind of culturally driven.

Jay Shetty 46:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 46:34 Um, and again, it becomes our conditioning. It becomes what we do, and then we fear, right, kind of doing our own thing. We fear being judged. We fear being misunderstood. We for- fear all of the things associated with living in truth-

Jay Shetty 46:48 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 46:48 ... that might differ-

Jay Shetty 46:49 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 46:49 ... from the world around us. Um, and, and again, there's no hack way-

Jay Shetty 46:54 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 46:54 ... except to practice, right, to get so connected to your truth that it doesn't mean that it won't feel painful or discouraging when someone maybe misinterprets or doesn't view you the way you imagine yourself to be in any given moment, though it also doesn't mean that you have to take their opinion or their perception over your own, right?

Jay Shetty 47:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 47:17 There's always that space I call a kind of, you know, hearing and taking in the feedback, um, because feedback can be helpful.

Jay Shetty 47:25 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 47:25 Um, feedback from someone who's not me offers me the, the distance that I might not be able to see-

Jay Shetty 47:30 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 47:30 ... the objectivity that sometimes comes with the distance and maybe the cold, hard truth-

Jay Shetty 47:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 47:35 ... that sometimes comes within that objectivity that can help me, however, only if I so choose.

Jay Shetty 47:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 47:41 So I always kind of describe a process of hearing, right, the feedback, and then taking it, and then deciding for yourself, right, trying on for size, seeing if it maybe you would like it to not apply, and maybe it does, though not just taking it because someone else told you to or someone else is perceiving you in that way. It really is up to us. See, hear what someone's saying, and now observe for yourself. Do you do that same, that thing that they're saying you're doing that, you know, in that moment?

Jay Shetty 48:11 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 48:12 You are the one who gets to choose, and especially, of course, for those of us who are living on social media with many different eyes of many different people at different distances from us, um, the feedback can, can be there.

Jay Shetty 48:24 Yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 48:24 It can be overwhelming, um, and can, it can be very misunderstanding, um, though when you have that confidence, when you know, right, that you're aligned internally, um, and when you do see all of the moments, if we're honest, that you are misinterpreting other people, you can make space, I think, for other people doing that for you.

Jay Shetty 48:41 Yeah. Yeah. De- yeah, that, I, I love that. That's what I've found. It's like I almost find when I can't be... When I'm judgmental of others, like you were saying about the dan- dances, et cetera-

Dr. Nicole LePera 48:50 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 48:50 ... and the idea of when I'm being critical or judgmental of someone, even if not verbally or externally, but mentally- I find that I usually am critical and judgmental of myself for the same reasons. And when I can't give grace to myself, when I can't be compassionate to someone else, I can't be compassionate to myself. And when I can't be compassionate to myself, I can't be compassionate to others. And that's just been such a, it's such a difficult thing to play with, but when you kind of have that light bulb moment, it becomes so clear. It's like, well, wait a minute. How would I wanna be perceived if I'd just gone through that? Whether it was a divorce, whether it was a breakup, whether it was a, uh, a failure or a mistake externally, it's like, how... If I'd, I've made mistakes, we've all made mistakes-

Dr. Nicole LePera 49:37 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 49:37 ... like, how would I want someone to deal with me, and how, how would I be feeling? And I think that how do we start to empathize with people we don't know and people who we think are very different from us? Because I think we, it's easy to be compassionate and empathize with the obvious, i.e., someone doesn't have food or a home-

Dr. Nicole LePera 49:56 Mm

Jay Shetty 49:56 ... you can, you can offer some compassion and love. Uh, someone has anxiety just like you do. You can offer some compassion and love. But when you, as you see someone else who's got a different struggle and a different challenge, we actually really struggle as humans-

Dr. Nicole LePera 50:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 50:11 ... to have empathy. How do we start creating empathy for people that we can't relate to or, or don't

Jay Shetty 50:16 agree with sometimes?

Dr. Nicole LePera 50:17 Yeah. So I think, you know, I sometimes talk in universal, sometimes try to avoid it.

Jay Shetty 50:22 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 50:22 This is one universal that I do believe very strongly in. Um, regardless of the very distinct differences that ma- you know, our essence, we are all different, I believe at our core, right, we share, you know, three very, you know, human needs, to be seen, to be heard, and to be loved.

Jay Shetty 50:41 Mm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 50:42 And I believe that unifies all of us, and most things that we're doing outwardly that might be the cause of that negative, I ha- don't love using the words positive and negative, but that less than savory reaction-

Jay Shetty 50:54 Yes

Dr. Nicole LePera 50:54 ... right, are oftentimes the outward attempt of that human at getting one of those core needs met in that moment.

Jay Shetty 51:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole LePera 51:02 So the way that we can unify the collective is I think the work is, um, the final chapter in the book, um, is called Interdependence, this idea of coming back into, right, as our authentically honored selves now into the collective. Um, I believe we're social creatures. All of us humans, regardless if you come from a self-identified collectivist culture or not, we are humans in relationship. Um, and again, like I said, we're not all showing up authentically and honoring ourselves in this relationship, though we are in that connectivity. And at our core, again, like I said, we want that group cohesion. We want to be seen and honored and loved. And again, many of us have all of these different adaptations and ways we go about it, um, but I think that can be one of the ways that we honor the humanity in each of us, is that our l- life is our best attempt, you know, given all of the past circumstances, at getting those core needs met. So even if what you're seeing is unsavory in your opinion or in your experience, um, we can understand it, I think, through that lens. Now, of course, this doesn't mean, right, opening the door to abuse, showing up when our boundaries-

Jay Shetty 52:10 Of course

Dr. Nicole LePera 52:10 ... have been crossed. It still is creating safety to continue to get our needs met, which sometimes does mean outside of that relationship with that possibly unsavory person at this time, though again, we can create the empathy by focusing on the similarity.

Jay Shetty 52:25 Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much. Uh, Dr. Nicole, it's been so talk- so amazing talking to you. I'm wondering if there's something I haven't asked you or something that's in your heart right now that you feel everyone needs to hear, that you wanna share, that maybe even something you've been reflecting on lately. Would there be a message that you think everyone needs to hear and experience?

Dr. Nicole LePera 52:43 I think the message that I am always offering to share first is honoring,

Dr. Nicole LePera 52:47 you know, all of the listeners out there, the curiosity, the maybe connection to your work. But just showing up, I think we diminish all of the things that we do do for ourselves each and every day-

Jay Shetty 52:57 That's right

Dr. Nicole LePera 52:57 ... or we write them off as not enough. Um, so the first thing I wanna offer is that honoring of-

Jay Shetty 53:02 That's beautiful

Dr. Nicole LePera 53:03 ... the small choices that you are already making in your life, and again, honoring the moment that you're living in your life because you're there. Your journey has brought you there for a reason. Maybe it's not a moment you want to stay in, though within that moment, like we've been talking about this whole episode, allows us to, to begin to make those new choices. So anyone listening can start right where they're at, right? There's no pre-req- prerequisite for healing, for changing, for doing the work. This moment might be the moment you become present, the moment you develop that consciousness, and then build together those moments, and I'm here to share, still on my journey, not done. I don't believe there is that done place.

Jay Shetty 53:42 Oh, definitely not, yeah.

Dr. Nicole LePera 53:43 Um, though I'm not where I once was-

Jay Shetty 53:45 Mm

Dr. Nicole LePera 53:45 ... and I'm excited now to see into that unknown, that which was once scary and to be avoidable. I'm curious. I'm curious to see where my journey goes.

Jay Shetty 53:54 Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that, that message around honoring is just so powerful. You know, we, we can get nine things right that week, and we'll focus on that-

Dr. Nicole LePera 54:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 54:02 ... one thing we got wrong and make it huge and make it feel like nine things we got wrong, and so I love that. I want to, to honor our audience, uh, as Nicole's suggesting, honor each and every one of you in our community and family for showing up and being here and listening every single week, so thank you so much. Uh, Nicole, we end every episode with a final five, as you know,

Jay Shetty 54:25 uh, the Fast Five, so I'm gonna ask you five questions that need to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

Dr. Nicole LePera 54:31 All right.

Jay Shetty 54:32 I believe a sentence is roughly seven words maybe. I don't know.

Dr. Nicole LePera 54:34 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 54:34 I just made that up. Uh, so are you ready for your final five?

Dr. Nicole LePera 54:37 I'm ready, and I will attempt, I am wordy, so I will attempt-

Jay Shetty 54:40 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 54:40 ... to keep it short. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 54:41 Amazing. All right. Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever received?

Dr. Nicole LePera 54:46 Um, not to assume.

Jay Shetty 54:48 Mm, good. I like that advice. What's the worst advice you've ever received?

Dr. Nicole LePera 54:53 Worst advice I ever received is that consciousness or being present, mindfulness, isn't important.

Jay Shetty 54:59 Wow, I'm surprised. So I can-

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:00 I actually had an advisor in my, when I was trying to do my dissertation involving mindfulness, I was actually told that verbatim. I knew that there was something suspect [laughs] about that piece of advice.

Jay Shetty 55:10 Why, why, where did that come from for them? Int- I'm intrigued, and you don't have to go into it if you don't want to.

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:14 Um, I, I believe it came from a mindset of genet- like genetics. That was it.

Jay Shetty 55:18 Right, right, right.

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:19 Um, you know, you had this chip, and there was nothing else that was going to override that, um, kind of squashing the power of consciousness-

Jay Shetty 55:30 Man

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:30 ... that I was starting to kind of wonder, and it took me many years to be able-

Jay Shetty 55:33 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:34 ... to utilize that. I would be lying if I said, "Oh, I tucked it in my belt and just became-

Jay Shetty 55:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:38 ... conscious nonetheless and continued to change," and I didn't. Um, again-

Jay Shetty 55:42 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:42 ... it took me years to action on that practice, though. That was told to me, and I'm happy I did not listen, of course.

Jay Shetty 55:48 Amazing. All right, question n- I, I made you extend that answer, so you're doing great.

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:51 So that's not my fault.

Jay Shetty 55:52 Yeah, that is not your fault.

Dr. Nicole LePera 55:53 Just to be clear here. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 55:53 I'm taking, yeah, yeah. I, that was my fa- I was like, ooh, interesting. Uh, question number three, uh, how would you define your current purpose?

Dr. Nicole LePera 56:01 How would I define my current purpose? Um, living heart-centered. I think that's where I am at on my journey, and it also is informing a lot of the teaching and the work that I am and will continue to be putting out.

Jay Shetty 56:14 Beautiful. Question number four, uh, what's the first thing you try and do in the morning and the last thing you do at night?

Dr. Nicole LePera 56:19 First thing I try and do is not look at my phone-

Jay Shetty 56:21 [laughs] yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 56:22 ... and take a moment for me. Um, I say try 'cause there are moments where I don't. And the last thing I do at night is same thing. I don't bring-

Jay Shetty 56:32 Yeah

Dr. Nicole LePera 56:32 ... just be internal.

Jay Shetty 56:33 Yeah. Love that. All right, fifth and final question, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Dr. Nicole LePera 56:41 One law. [sighs] Living from the heart. Connect with the heart. I don't know how to law that, but-

Jay Shetty 56:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Nicole LePera 56:48 ... the law would be the heart is important. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 56:50 [laughs]

Dr. Nicole LePera 56:50 Make friends with it. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 56:52 I love it. Dr. Nicole LePera, everyone. How To Do The Work. Make sure you go and grab a copy of the book. We've put the link into all of the comment sections and subject areas so that you can go and grab your copy. I highly recommend it, and of course, please, please, please follow Dr. Nicole on Instagram so that you can see all her incredible posts. And tag both of us with your insights from this episode. If there's been anything that she said that stood out, a p- an insight, a piece of wisdom, a tip, a practice that you're going to start doing, tag us both. We'd love to see it. Uh, Dr. Nicole, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so grateful that we got to meet just in time.

Dr. Nicole LePera 57:28 Of course.

Jay Shetty 57:28 Uh, and I hope to have you back on the podcast many, many times. Uh-

Dr. Nicole LePera 57:31 Thank you, Jay

Jay Shetty 57:32 ... thank you for joining me.

Dr. Nicole LePera 57:32 I, I hope our cross, paths continue to cross, and I'm so eternally grateful for you and your community, so thank you.

Jay Shetty 57:37 Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks, everyone, for listening and watching. If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here. I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book, Think Like A Monk, from thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description to make sure you order today.