Dr. Shefali ON: Breaking Free of Expectations & Living Life on Your Own Terms

Dr. Shefali 0:00 It's a lie. The more nice you are, you deny that you're being violated. At the end of many years of being nice, you actually die in your spirit. And women only feel like that after the children are raised, after they've checked off all the lists. Now they're like, "I was nice, but what did I get for myself?" [upbeat music]

Jay Shetty 0:23 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you who come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, you know that I am so deeply committed to wanting to serve and support each and every one of you, and today I'm getting to sit down with not only a dear friend, but a phenomenal author who's written a brand-new book that is going to help you on your personal path to power. Her name is Dr. Shefali, and her new book is called A Radical Awakening: Turn Pain into Power, Embrace Your Truth, and Live Free. Dr. Shefali, welcome to On Purpose.

Dr. Shefali 1:05 Thank you, Jay.

Jay Shetty 1:06 Uh, and I'm so excited to be back with you. Thank you for coming in person. I'm so grateful.

Dr. Shefali 1:10 Of course. I couldn't miss the opportunity.

Jay Shetty 1:12 No, like, we've been friends for five years now. So the first time we met was when we tweeted each other, and I remember we were both like, "This person looks like me." And, and we were messaging away, and then when me, you, and my wife are together-

Dr. Shefali 1:25 Oh, my goodness

Jay Shetty 1:25 ... people are like, "What's going on here?" [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 1:27 I know. I know. Unfortunately, they, they always call me your aunt, and they go-

Jay Shetty 1:30 No, they don't. No, they don't

Dr. Shefali 1:31 ... "How is your nephew Jay?"

Jay Shetty 1:33 No.

Dr. Shefali 1:33 And I go... [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:34 No, they don't. No, they don't. But honestly, I... You were one of the first people to ever reach out to me when I first started my journey, and helped me so much, supported me so much, encouraged me so much, and I just saw you, you know, writing three New York Times best-selling books. You were, you're Oprah's favorite parenting expert. I mean, you know, just so many great accomplishments, and today we're talking about your new book.

Dr. Shefali 2:00 Yes.

Jay Shetty 2:00 And you've been sharing with me a little bit, and with my research, we've been talking about how this is dedicated to women-

Dr. Shefali 2:07 Yes

Jay Shetty 2:07 ... to find their power.

Dr. Shefali 2:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:09 Tell me about why this was the right book right now.

Dr. Shefali 2:12 Well, not only because it was the emblem of my own personal finding of power, but we women, and not to denigrate men, but we really are the container, the nurturing emblem for our children. And because we primarily raise our children, we're the connectors. We are the nurturers of the earth. We carry the feminine principle so strongly within us that if we are subjugated, as we are today in the toxic patriarchy that we live in, then there is no hope for our planet. So I wrote this book to awaken us women, to ignite our own sovereignty so that when we step into it, the earth can heal.

Jay Shetty 2:58 I love this already because I, there's a few things that come to mind, and I know you beautifully weave together Eastern principles and, you know, you're a therapist, and modern psychology and science. Tell me a bit about how do you think women's power has been dampened and weakened over time, and what have we lost as a society because of that?

Dr. Shefali 3:19 Oh, my goodness. So I imagine that pre-recorded history, women held a more powerful, pedestalized place. So this is my fantasy of that time. However, since recorded history, especially since the last 10,000 years of the Agricultural Revolution and then the Industrial Revolution and our modern digitized technological revolution, with each passing of era, if you notice sociologically, we have moved away from the earth, so to speak. And you can see now we're living in a virtual reality. What does that mean? Our intimacy within the tribe, within the community, within the shared space of the earth, other species, and us, that connection is being severed. We are so far removed now from real reality. I mean, we literally can see reality in a helmet. We don't have to go there. What do we lose with each pivotal turn away from these connections? We lose our connection to ourselves. With each movement away from the earth, our mother, we move away just like a child grows up without its mothering. So in the same way a child who's brought up in an orphan is disconnected from-

Jay Shetty 4:39 Wow

Dr. Shefali 4:39 ... its mothering, we as a humanity are moving away from our mothering, right? I mean, it's clear.

Jay Shetty 4:44 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 4:44 We have damaged the earth. We have destroyed the planet. So with this movement away into masculinity... Now, masculinity is beautiful. I talk about how we women, who are so embedded in our feminine, need to embrace the masculine. But when the masculine becomes extreme, as we are right now in a toxic masculinity, what happens is that we force the beautiful feminine into a toxic femininity. So we are at extreme polarities, and you know through Eastern meditation, dualism is a curse. So we're living in a polarized world, in a dualistic world, and we've cut women from their power because it's a toxically masculine world which doesn't favor the feminine, and we women are in our feminine. So in a very microscopic level, let's just bring it down to my family, my child, what happens in the home, we women are taught to relinquish our inner voice. So within the patriarchy of the culture, there's another patriarchy which is in the parenting, which is what I talk about, right? Parenting is patriarchal, hierarchical, dogmatic, and linear. So just between parent and child, even mother and daughter, there is a denigration of the daughter's spirit, even by the mother. Because she is subsumed in the bigger patriarchy. So this linearity and hierarchy is toxic. So I've been talking about conscious parenting-

Jay Shetty 6:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shefali 6:15 ... as a whole being subjugating of children. Now, take that and put it within a toxic patriarchy. The girl child in particular, the daughter, is really now at the bottom of the totem pole.

Jay Shetty 6:28 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 6:29 Then the girl child of color is even at the... You know, so we are living in a very stratified culture, and it all goes down and affects me in my daily life.

Jay Shetty 6:39 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 6:40 So even me, educated, you know, PhD, I was being swallowed in my own lostness. So that's when I woke up in my 40s, no earlier, to realize that if I am lost to my own inner knowing and I'm laying vanquished to, to my own power, what must it be like for others? And that's why I wrote this book. You know, each one of my books is really ignited by my own journey, as I'm sure yours is. Because until I feel it and until I've lived it, I can't teach it.

Jay Shetty 7:15 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 7:15 So I really uncovered my own lostness to find my foundness, and this, this book really speaks to how every woman and man can reclaim their lost voice. We have lost our true authentic voice as women, as a culture, as a species, and our Earth is losing its voice. It's everywhere. I mean, this is a wake-up call, a crisis in humanity, but there is light if we wake up to the light. And so this book speaks about that journey from darkness to light and how each one of us can find our light.

Jay Shetty 7:54 Yeah. I love hearing this from you, and I'm, I mean that genuinely because I remember when I got married and, which was... We were just talking about it. It was just five years ago, but I've been with my wife now for about eight years that we've been dating and together. And in our culture, when a woman is invited into a home, it's considered like you're inviting a goddess into your home, right? Like Lakshmi Devi or-

Dr. Shefali 8:18 Right

Jay Shetty 8:18 ... Saraswati Devi. That's actually the culture.

Dr. Shefali 8:21 Right.

Jay Shetty 8:21 And that's actually the mindset, is that you're actually allowing this abundant goddess to come into your home.

Dr. Shefali 8:27 Right.

Jay Shetty 8:27 That's what it's meant to be.

Dr. Shefali 8:29 Right.

Jay Shetty 8:29 Um, but often it's not translated in that way in actions and behavior.

Dr. Shefali 8:34 Yes.

Jay Shetty 8:34 And I know that in my own way, I can tell that when I've allowed and when I've worked with my wife to allow her abundance and to allow her to be her best self and her true self, it's like the most beautiful bond you can experience. And if I ever l- get lost in the idea of control or taming or, you know, like just if you're trying to... Contain is the right word, as you said. Like, if I see myself having any of that, which is not, I'm actually not like that at all, but from society and what you hear, if I ever see myself trying to become a container of that energy, it actually loses its power and beauty.

Dr. Shefali 9:19 Right.

Jay Shetty 9:20 Uh, and, and that can be as simple as loving my wife's spontaneity-

Dr. Shefali 9:23 Right

Jay Shetty 9:24 ... to her actually being fulfilled.

Dr. Shefali 9:26 Right.

Jay Shetty 9:26 If that... Does any of that make sense?

Dr. Shefali 9:27 Absolutely. So women have been bridled-

Jay Shetty 9:30 Yeah

Dr. Shefali 9:30 ... because of these institutions. So in this book, I talk about how marriage, once a contract, now has become an encagement.

Jay Shetty 9:39 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 9:39 And where women are talked about as possessions and as objects of control. And so if you veer out of that contract, especially in cultures like ours, heavily patriarchal and unconscious, then the woman is really derided, and so she's lost. She-

Jay Shetty 9:56 Mm.

Dr. Shefali 9:57 Her only two options are to suffer and stay, uh, you know, or to face ostracism if she-

Jay Shetty 10:03 Yeah

Dr. Shefali 10:03 ... defies the norm.

Jay Shetty 10:05 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 10:05 So institutions that we have created, uh, under this toxic patriarchy have begun to encage us. And until we reframe what marriage really means... And, you know, I just went through a divorce, so I had to reframe what divorce meant. And the fears that came about because of my fear of ostracism really challenged me and made me realize that we can't do this to our women. We are not property, and we need to be allowed to be unbridled in our power to live free.

Jay Shetty 10:35 Mm.

Dr. Shefali 10:35 So, so these institutions are designed for ownership and possession and control, including parenting.

Jay Shetty 10:42 Yes.

Dr. Shefali 10:43 Including education. All these institutions that we've created suffocate the true spirit. And with the demise of the authentic self comes the demise of each other and then the demise of the Earth. What is done to us, we do to others.

Jay Shetty 10:58 Absolutely. I love how you were speaking about at the beginning, like Mother Nature and how that disconnection is the disconnection from the feminine energy. But also, even as a man, when we're suffocating that energy-

Dr. Shefali 11:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 11:11 ... we actually also don't get to experience it beautifully and deeply and wonderfully.

Dr. Shefali 11:16 Right.

Jay Shetty 11:16 Right? Like that's, from a, from a, l- looking at it from a masculine perspective, it's like if I'm stifling or suffocating feminine energy, then I actually don't e- get to experience the essence of how amazing it is.

Dr. Shefali 11:30 Right. Because in order for a traditional man, male, to allow his feminine wife to be blossoming in that energy, and to have ma- and the woman to have masculine energy as well, takes the man to now explore these aspects within themselves.

Jay Shetty 11:46 Yes.

Dr. Shefali 11:47 So that is threatening for men who don't want to do the inner work, and they don't wanna touch the vulnerability that that brings. So they now get denied from that beautiful process of growth themselves. So this book really is not only an invitation for women sitting on their couch right now, feeling dislocated in their lives, feeling disenfranchised, feeling scared- To open up to their power. But in doing so, they now challenge the men in their lives to now integrate themselves.

Jay Shetty 12:18 Yeah. Let's talk about those women that you're just mentioning. I'm sure a lot of them are listening to this podcast or watching us right now, and they're listening to you and saying, "Dr. Shefali, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm in one of those marriages right now," or, "I was raised in that way," or, "Maybe my parents still control my life and make my decisions for me." Where does that person start their radical awakening? Like, what is the beginning? As you say in this book, you build the path. Tell us about that first step for someone who f- who is, like, listening to you right now and saying, "I get it. I'm, I'm there."

Dr. Shefali 12:51 This book really speaks to that lonely, desolate place that all of us have experienced until we break free. We've all experienced desolation of the spirit because we've been disconnected. Our parents controlled us. We grew up with a prescription list. We were raised to be people pleasers, good girls, skinny girls. You know, we were... We women, if we're honest, have been raised with such a standardized prescription list, you know, of how to be. And brown girls, Black girls, we're all raised to be following the standard of beauty, the standard of goodness, and we've been suffocated. Our fathers may have done it, the culture may have done it, but now we do it to ourselves. So the radical awakening that I talk about in this book is first about understanding what has been done to us-

Jay Shetty 13:42 Mm

Dr. Shefali 13:42 ... by culture and our parenting, our early childhood, and then what we do to ourselves. So now we do it to ourselves, right? We look in the mirror, and we look at our big earlobe, and we objectify ourselves and denigrate ourselves. We look at the wrinkle here. Nobody's looking at it now, but because it was done to us, we do it to ourselves. Because they su- suffocated us, now we suffocate ourselves. So for the woman out there who's sitting there knowing that she's living in fear, that she's faking it, that she's lying to her partner, that she's being inauthentic, I would tell her that there is a path out of this. I was one of those women who was living a role, pleasing everyone around me just to keep everyone happy. So for that woman, I, I would tell her that it is scary because she's waking up to the realization that her life has been false. She's been living in a false, fake self, and that's scary. But now, so she looks ahead and she sees a tunnel, like, "Who am I without the role? Who will I be without being the mother, the wife, the daughter?" But as she goes through this tunnel, and this book is a, uh, an accompaniment with her in that tunnel, step by step. Then after the darkness of the tunnel, there is, of course, light at the end. There's no tunnel that is interminable, but it feels like it's never-ending. But I want that woman, I want that woman to know that every woman has felt like that before she's undertaken the greatest journey of her life, and the greatest journey of her life will take her to the reclamation of her true power, and it's worth taking that journey.

Jay Shetty 15:23 I, I, I mean, it, it just sounds necessary. I mean, I'm, I'm not a parent yet, and I don't have a daughter, but I w- I would, I would want anyone in my life to feel like they got to live their true self and release their power. I just think that... I think people as a whole are so much more beautiful when they're getting to live their purpose and their power.

Dr. Shefali 15:43 Yes.

Jay Shetty 15:44 They're more attractive to themselves and to other people.

Dr. Shefali 15:46 Yes.

Jay Shetty 15:46 And I don't mean attractive on a physical basis.

Dr. Shefali 15:48 Yes.

Jay Shetty 15:48 I mean energetically attractive, like-

Dr. Shefali 15:50 Yes

Jay Shetty 15:51 ... you just, you notice when you meet someone-

Dr. Shefali 15:54 Yeah

Jay Shetty 15:54 ... who is experiencing that personal connection to that power. When you, and if you feel comfortable sharing, when, when you were battling going through the divorce and feeling ostracized, like, or, or experiencing that, what was the hardest part about that?

Dr. Shefali 16:11 You know, Jay, you and I growing up in India in particular, which is, which has facets of the extremes of toxic patriarchy, know better than anyone what pressure women have to keep the home happy and safe and protected, you know, and keep it away from the judgment of others. We are raised to not air our dirty laundry, so to speak. So having been conditioned, and every woman in some way or the other is conditioned to bear the onus of keeping it all together, of connecting, of keeping the family safe and happy. So when a woman dares, like I dared in my imagination, to step out of convention, to break the mold, to, to step out of the box of my f- 25-year-old relationship, the first and immediate fear is, of course, how will I be loved? How will I be validated? Will I be ostracized? What will other people say? Because we've been conditioned to be tethered to the opinions of others. So the first thing that comes up when you want to be yourself is the battle between yourself and others. Who am I for others versus who am I for myself? This is the eternal conflict. This is why we don't make big, monumental decisions in our lives with courage, because we're always weighing what other people will think and how they will feel versus following our own voice. So how do we negotiate this conflict with compassion, with consciousness? So that was my second challenge. Okay, I don't want to do this with anger and unconsciousness. I want to be able to own my own sovereignty with right and might, but with compassion. So it took me two years to negotiate this. You know, we don't wanna be impulsive and reactive. We wanna process. So I wanted to process, why was I playing a role for so long? What, what was the purpose of my role? So my role in my life was to be the savior, to be the ultimate, you know, good girl, to follow the way. And in that, I lost myself. It was not anyone's fault on the outside. It was not even my fault. It was just my conditioning. So women out there should not blame themselves or shame themselves or blame their partners. This is about the awakening of the, of the self. So you have to go through this period of living asleep to wake up. So, so my fears were, were about battling the conditioning versus the evolution, and conditioning is always suppressing the authentic self, and the authentic self is longing to come out. So how do we negotiate that? So it took me two years of arduous inner work because I loved everyone in my system, in my old system. I didn't want to just discard them. This is not about discarding anyone. This is about truly divorcing the inauthentic parts of our old life. So that's what I was divorcing. I wasn't divorcing my partner. I was divorcing my own inauthentic self. But culture doesn't have room for that. You know? It says that you're shaming yourself or you're failing. So I had to negotiate those labels within my own being and come to the realization I'm not doing anything wrong. I haven't failed. I, I'm actually speaking my truth. So I was getting married to my true self and divorcing my inauthentic self, and that's what marriage and divorce should be about.

Jay Shetty 19:48 Yeah. Absolutely. So well said. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. I really appreciate that, and I hope it's gonna help a lot of people listening-

Dr. Shefali 19:54 Yes

Jay Shetty 19:54 ... because it's-

Dr. Shefali 19:55 Yes

Jay Shetty 19:55 ... it's such a strong attachment to that conditioning that feels like that's the right thing and that breaking that is the wrong thing, and especially in, in the traditions that we're speaking about. What ... When you start identifying those fears, and you beautifully explained that, like, two years. Can you imagine? I'm just trying to imagine living with something fearful for two years, working through that conditioning. What keeps you motivated and inspired in that arduous two years of fear, of judgment? What, what keeps you going at that time?

Dr. Shefali 20:33 So all my work has been about claiming the authentic voice. So when I finally woke up, I didn't even know I was not authentic. I was as authentic as my consciousness allowed. And you and I speak about the consciousness quotient. We need to understand that all our, quote, unquote, mistakes in the past were made under a certain consciousness quotient. We should not bemoan or regret or have guilt. So you don't know what you don't know, and until you wake up, you don't know you're asleep. So I didn't know I was asleep till I woke up. The minute I woke up to the fact that I may have been inauthentic and I need to now fly to a different space within my being, what kept me motivated was that goal. How can I live my most true self? All my work has been about chasing that. So I had to really look at, am I able to now hold myself to my greatest standard, which is, am I living my true self or am I living a lie? So I did an exercise, and I think people could do this at home-

Jay Shetty 21:41 Hmm. Would love that

Dr. Shefali 21:41 ... where I declared, I committed that I would pay attention to the things that would come out of my mouth, and if in any way it was in the role of good girl or pleaser, you know, being fake because I wanted to avoid conflict, I wouldn't speak.

Jay Shetty 21:59 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 21:59 Okay?

Jay Shetty 21:59 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 21:59 So I began observing.

Jay Shetty 22:01 Wow. [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 22:02 Let me see how much is a lie. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 22:04 [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 22:05 And I literally couldn't speak because everything was tethered to the other person's desires. And it was such a moment of excitement but also trauma to realize I don't know who I am yet. I'm in my 40s, I'm a mother of a teenager, and I can't access my true voice like this. It takes me so much processing to go, "What do I want?" So if I am like that, a psychologist, a meditator, I realize there are plenty women out there who are just lost to that inner access. We shouldn't take so long to find out what we want, but because we've placed everyone else before us, our true self gets buried. So that was my, my chase, was like dare yourself to go through this dark tunnel. Yes, you will lose relationships. Yes, people will think you're this or that. And defy yourself to untether to live your true self. So I know now that people may judge me and have ideas about me, but that's not my focus anymore. It is so my inner liberation, so that's my prize. You know? Now, has it come at a price? Of course, but I was willing to pay that price for this prize of being free.

Jay Shetty 23:23 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 23:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:24 Yeah, no, that, that ... I mean, that, that last line of what you just said of, like, paying the price for the prize of being free-

Dr. Shefali 23:30 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 23:30 ... I mean, that just ... I mean, that touches me so deeply when you hear that because it's, it's almost like, yes, the path is painful, but the power that you get to hold at the end of it is your own. But one of the biggest fears, and you mentioned it just there, one of the biggest fears I feel for a lot of women is that they're putting everyone before them, and a lot of f- women who are seeking their power would go, "Oh, but I have a child that I'm not sure how they're gonna react to it," or-

Dr. Shefali 23:57 Yes

Jay Shetty 23:57 ... maybe s- ... It's almost like I ... And again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm totally open to being corrected, but the way I'm observing the fear is if I stand in my power, that could make my f- child or someone in my life feel powerless somehow.

Dr. Shefali 24:12 Yes. Yes.

Jay Shetty 24:13 And that feels like a, a f- a real fear because, as you said, like, women as mothers so often are not thinking about themselves at all.

Dr. Shefali 24:21 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:22 And so you kind of stay in pain- ... for the benefit of someone else

Dr. Shefali 24:26 I'm so happy you brought that up, because that is one of the most practical mountains before anyone who has a family if they want to reconfigure the family. Our first concern as women is our children. You know, we've been raised as mothers. We are mothering in nature. So even in my own life, my daughter was my primary concern. And then you're conditioned to feel selfish if you put yourself first, especially women, especially mothers.

Jay Shetty 24:55 100%.

Dr. Shefali 24:55 And then there's a whole other practical side of money, which is a big impediment, because the way our culture is set up in these nuclear families, women are not only cut off from their sorority, they don't have other women to count on, they're- they're raising their families alone, they're also cut off from financial power, right? So s- most-

Jay Shetty 25:17 Yeah

Dr. Shefali 25:17 ... of these families have the men in charge of the financial power, so women feel bereft. Then she's not being raised in a tribe anymore. She's not raising her children in a tribe, so now she's alone. So there are many considerations for women why they don't want to reconfigure their family. So how do we negotiate that, right? So of course, if your children are young, if your children are teenagers, all this makes a difference. My kid was a teenager, so it was very different for me. I was financially autonomous. It was very different for me. I was on this path already. It was different for me. So there's no diminishing of the enormous hardship we face to reconfigure family. All I would give women is the offering that the reason that they're particularly finding it hard is not just because it is hard, but because of how we've been conditioned to look at it.

Jay Shetty 26:09 Right.

Dr. Shefali 26:09 So I would encourage women, and I do this all the time in my practice, if you are in pain to the point that your spirit is being suffused, your daughter is going to see that.

Jay Shetty 26:20 Mm.

Dr. Shefali 26:21 Your son is going to see that. So whether you like it or not, you are passing down enormous trauma. So keeping the family together for the sake of how it looks on paper doesn't absolve the continuance of the trauma. So when I tell women that, they go, "Okay, if I'm gonna stay in trauma and pass down trauma for the sake of the appearance, is that more worth it to me?" Or saying, "Forget the appearance. Let me heal and pass down healing." Let me tell you, our kids want us healthy. They don't want us traumatized, and the next thing kids don't want is to feel like they have to fix it or that they are to blame. So if you arrive at wholeness without giving your kids this, your kids are going to be okay. Now, is it what they desire? No. But are they going to be traumatized? No. I mean, I've done this in a way that has kept me whole and my kid whole to a certain degree, and then I can teach my kid, "The only reason you're feeling broken is because culture tells you you're broken. You're not broken. The family's reconfigured. The family has shape-shifted. That's a good thing. That's a healthy move towards our greater selves. How is this a bad thing?" So then I get an opportunity to teach her how culture has pressurized us women to stay within these institutions out of shame, and we don't want to live like that. So it's a wonderful opportunity, but the woman has to come into that realization of power.

Jay Shetty 27:57 Yeah. Yeah, I loved what you said there, because in essence what you're saying is you can keep your family together, but you're actually ch- tearing your children apart.

Dr. Shefali 28:05 Yes.

Jay Shetty 28:05 Right? It's like, because you're passing on that trauma.

Dr. Shefali 28:07 Right.

Jay Shetty 28:08 And that trauma of keeping a family together-

Dr. Shefali 28:11 Yes

Jay Shetty 28:11 ... can actually create more trauma ex- but that's the thing, right? It's like a lot of people would hear that and they'll say, "Okay, sh- Dr. Shefali, I won't, I won't let my kid know that I'm-

Dr. Shefali 28:22 Yes

Jay Shetty 28:23 ... I'm feeling anything-

Dr. Shefali 28:24 Yes

Jay Shetty 28:24 ... because they won't see it."

Dr. Shefali 28:26 Yes.

Jay Shetty 28:26 But kids do see that. They can tell.

Dr. Shefali 28:28 Right.

Jay Shetty 28:29 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 28:29 But I tell women who are really on the fence that it's not the time.

Jay Shetty 28:34 Right.

Dr. Shefali 28:35 This is not about feeling the slightest unhappiness-

Jay Shetty 28:38 Right, right

Dr. Shefali 28:38 ... and bolting. This is not about blaming the other person. This is about truly understanding our own co-creation in this. If you bash the other person, that breaks your kid, whether you're in a marriage or you're not in a marriage.

Jay Shetty 28:52 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 28:53 If you act in brokenness, either hidden or explicit, that breaks your kid. So when women are trying to negotiate and barter, you know, "I can handle it," that means they're not ready. So that means they need to sit in the stew longer. You know, I stayed in it for a long time. There's no rush. This is about the evolution of the authentic self. There's no timeline, it doesn't look a certain way, and it's never about the other person. This is something I really need people to understand as they radically awaken, that they need to take ownership for their co-creation, because then, this is like what Gandhi did in India. He told Indians to take ownership of their own power. Make your own clothes. Make your own sugar and salt. Don't rely on the British Empire. That's how he emboldened the vanquished to stand up. So the oppressed can never blame the oppressor.

Jay Shetty 29:49 Right.

Dr. Shefali 29:49 There is no such thing at the end of the day. There's physical oppression, but all mental oppression has to be looked at by the one who's feeling mentally oppressed. So women need to first ask themselves, "Am I still blaming the other?"

Jay Shetty 30:02 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 30:03 If they are, it's not the time to divorce-

Jay Shetty 30:05 Wow

Dr. Shefali 30:06 ... because they're gonna carry that victimhood into the next relationship.

Jay Shetty 30:09 Mm.

Dr. Shefali 30:10 When they can stand on their own two feet of looking at their own co-creation, now they've healed themselves.

Jay Shetty 30:17 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 30:18 Now they can leave. So I tell women, "No, no, where are you going?" Now of course, if there's extreme abuse, they must leave.

Jay Shetty 30:25 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 30:25 But if it's mental abuse, they need to see how they are co-creating the dance-

Jay Shetty 30:30 Right

Dr. Shefali 30:30 ... heal it- Own it, then leave

Jay Shetty 30:33 The empathy with which you're coming across that perspective of it's not just like, "Oh, this is the end, and it has to stop here," and, you know, I... And the idea of not blaming requires a lot of growth because that's such a natural tendency for all of us when we've been wronged or mistreated. I find, though, that sometimes what happens is men will also move on faster.

Dr. Shefali 30:56 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:57 And again, I find that, and I'm only speaking on behalf of friends I know and people in my life that have experienced this. I'm not saying this for all women, I'm just saying it for people I know. They will then again feel that they are not lovable and that they are not-

Dr. Shefali 31:14 Yes

Jay Shetty 31:14 ... beautiful or-

Dr. Shefali 31:15 Yes

Jay Shetty 31:15 ... or worthy or-

Dr. Shefali 31:15 Yes

Jay Shetty 31:16 ... enough.

Dr. Shefali 31:16 Yeah, so let's talk about that.

Jay Shetty 31:17 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Shefali 31:18 So you're right, typically men move on, but women have to understand that men are more compartmentalized. They are more logical and linear and not in touch with the interconnections of all their psychological complexities like we women are. So when men move on, that has no bearing on you, who's left behind. That's just the man who's continuing on his compartmentalized ways, which is probably why you wanted to leave in the first place.

Jay Shetty 31:43 [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 31:44 You know? But at the bottom of it all is that we are still seeking something from our partner, and what we're seeking is that love and worth. We are hungry for love and worth, and this is the bottom of the bottom, right? And, and I call it the pill that kills, and the pill that kills is our unworthiness. So all of our relationships, the intimate ones, the friendships, the parenting processes, all hold a mirror to how unworthy do I feel, and that's what this whole journey of life is about. At the end of the day, take away the Botox, take away the Bentley, take away the fancy education. It's about, am I worthy? We've been looking for worth through the marriage, through the shoes, through the degrees, through the books, whatever, and as long as you look for worth in the wrong places, you haven't come to the evolution of your authentic self. So t- so not blaming the other is just part of that releasing of the external. Release the shoes, release the makeup, release the, uh, the success, the achievement, the accolades. Now who am I on my own? That's what women need to arrive at. Who am I without my roles?

Jay Shetty 33:01 Hmm. Who am I without my roles?

Dr. Shefali 33:03 Yes.

Jay Shetty 33:04 Yeah, that is such a big question because I feel like for everyone on the planet, we all define ourselves by our roles. And one of the things I love about that you do in the book is you have this whole section called Cracking the Matrix, and you list about... And I'm just gonna share this with everyone. You list all the different lies that women are told. And so here you have m- multiple chapters, Lies About Love, Lies About Marriage and Divorce, Lies About Our Sexuality, Lies About Motherhood, Lies About Beauty and Youth, and Lies About Niceness. I wanted to go through some of the lies because I think that it's fascinating because I think half the thing is being aware of the lie.

Dr. Shefali 33:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:43 And most people don't even know that they're being lied to.

Dr. Shefali 33:45 Exactly.

Jay Shetty 33:45 So when it comes to... I would love to hear, let's start with lies about beauty and youth.

Dr. Shefali 33:50 Oh my goodness.

Jay Shetty 33:50 Because-

Dr. Shefali 33:51 It's the biggest-

Jay Shetty 33:51 ... I feel that's one that our generation, my generation, the social media, Instagram generation experiences the most. What are the lies about beauty and youth?

Dr. Shefali 34:02 That we need to be beautiful in a particular way, and we need to be eternally young. And let me tell you, culture has done a number on us, but who does a number more on ourselves than ourselves? We excoriate ourselves. We, like, whip ourselves. Like, you don't know what we women do when we look in the mirror. You have no idea as a man.

Jay Shetty 34:24 I, I agree. I definitely don't know.

Dr. Shefali 34:26 Yeah, you just show up.

Jay Shetty 34:27 [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 34:28 And the things that go on in the dressing room, that is the female side of the gr- you know, on-

Jay Shetty 34:34 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Shefali 34:34 ... of the stage, like, uh, in our talks, you should see what's happening in the female side.

Jay Shetty 34:38 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 34:39 Now, who's doing that to us, right? We have done this to ourselves, and I get it because it was done to us. We were looked, and we are objects of great beauty and desire, but we don't wanna be objectified, and now we've internalized the objectification. You know, so what was our nature? You know, all females are the ones that the males run after in the animal kingdom, right? Because the males want to spread their sperm. Part of nature. It's part of our biology. But what culture has done to us now is that it's told us we can only be desirable if we look a certain way, and it is a whiteified standard of beauty. It's changing now, but for the most part, when you and I were growing up, you know in India the most famous cream was called Fair & Lovely.

Jay Shetty 35:34 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 35:34 Fair meaning white, okay?

Jay Shetty 35:36 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 35:36 Like, they use the word fair for white.

Jay Shetty 35:38 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 35:38 So it's so heavily laden with whiteism and patriarchy that we women are now oppressed by this idea of beauty. So how do we break out of it, right? It takes all of us to not wear makeup. It takes all of us... And we're not only now wearing makeup. I mean, makeup is the most mild thing we do. Now we're altering our faces. We're disguising our buttocks. We're, you know, taking the saggy jaw. We are out of control. 20-year-olds are going to Botox clinics. So now with e- every passing decade, the standards are becoming more animatronics, you know, more perfect and tweaked and curated, and the, the more the technology, the more the subjugation. So we women have to rise together, and all of us have to agree because that one woman who ruins it for us, you know, like we've all decided to wear jeans, and then she wears her stilettos, now she messes it up for the rest of us, right? We c- went for the school drop-off in pajamas, but then that woman wears her, you know, hair all made up. Now she makes us feel bad because we feel bad. We women now compete with each other. And each time we compete with each other and up the other, "Oh, you just got your breasts? I'm gonna get my butt, and then I'm gonna get my underarm, and then I'm gonna get my ears." Each time we do that, we don't realize, not only do we not stand together as sisters, we genuflect on our knees to the patriarchy. We've given you men so much power by competing with each other. You know, we need to make men in general, and I talk heterosexual, used to the idea that we are going to grow old, we have wrinkles, we sag, and we're not perfect. The more we feed into the idea of perfection, we feed into patriarchy. Because who suffers in front of the mirror? We do. Who gains? You do. The men do. So in our own way, by oppressing ourselves under insane ideas of perfectionism, we give our power to the patriarchy that we complain about. But listen, it takes a lot of courage. I'm talking a lot, but I wanted to make sure my hair was okay. I wanted to make sure I looked all, you know, fabulous. So I fall into it myself. I'm not gonna pretend I am not falling into it. I'm going to watch it, though. I'm going to watch how far I go. I have ideas about like, "Oh, I can wipe away all my wrinkles? Let's do it." But I watch it. I don't in- I don't indulge in it. I watch how that voice is my internal oppressor, and then I talk to that voice and I go, "No, a few wrinkles is good. It's good. You are growing old. Why do you wanna look like a 20-year-old? Shefali, you're approaching 50. Accept it." So I have a dialogue.

Jay Shetty 38:32 Mm.

Dr. Shefali 38:33 I want women to engage in that dialogue and not rush to mutate themselves, because when they do that, they deny who they are right here, right now. I am a 50-year-old woman. I'm not ashamed to say it. I don't want to fake it anymore. So when we women can s- it's not easy, okay? Now I just said I'm 50, now I'm like, "Oh."

Jay Shetty 38:52 [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 38:53 But, you know, but you have, we have to do that-

Jay Shetty 38:56 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Shefali 38:56 ... so that we don't pretend.

Jay Shetty 38:58 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 38:59 I don't want other women to look at me thinking, "Oh, wow. Wow, she looks so young." No, I don't look young. I have wrinkles all over the place, cellulite all over the place. I'm gonna say it on, on your podcast because I want women to embrace all the sagginess, and stop making yourself perfect for men or for your partner. Nobody deserves perfectionism because that's an ideal. It's an illusion. You're faking it. So don't give it. Don't pretend you can even give it. It's not something to be given, and no one deserves it anyway.

Jay Shetty 39:32 Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you again for just-

Dr. Shefali 39:34 You're welcome

Jay Shetty 39:34 ... and, [laughs] and I appreciate you just... No, but I, I know what you're saying. You're not telling people to not dress up or not look nice.

Dr. Shefali 39:40 Sure.

Jay Shetty 39:40 That's not what you're saying. You're just saying that-

Dr. Shefali 39:42 Watch it

Jay Shetty 39:42 ... if you're not observing-

Dr. Shefali 39:43 Yes

Jay Shetty 39:43 ... where it's coming from-

Dr. Shefali 39:45 Yes

Jay Shetty 39:45 ... and why you're doing it-

Dr. Shefali 39:46 Yes

Jay Shetty 39:46 ... what the intention is and who is it serving-

Dr. Shefali 39:49 Yes

Jay Shetty 39:49 ... ultimately.

Dr. Shefali 39:50 And how much, Jay.

Jay Shetty 39:51 And how much, yeah.

Dr. Shefali 39:52 How much?

Jay Shetty 39:52 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 39:53 I mean, what... There's no end. There's the knee. There's the mid-thigh.

Jay Shetty 39:56 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 39:57 I mean, you've seen women.

Jay Shetty 39:58 It's true, yeah.

Dr. Shefali 39:58 It's like now we are buying product to make ourselves something other than who we were naturally.

Jay Shetty 40:06 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 40:06 And by doing that, again, we disconnect and we actually bec- feel more insecure. We think it's going, "Ah, that nice butt is going to make me secure." It doesn't.

Jay Shetty 40:16 No, it doesn't, yeah.

Dr. Shefali 40:17 Because it's an, it's a void of unworthiness that can never be filled by injections or by people.

Jay Shetty 40:25 That was so powerful. That was beautiful. I mean, that's just one of the lies that we dived into. [laughs] That was so powerful. Tell me about the lies about niceness, because I think that's one that a lot of women are struggling with right now in the workplace, uh, even on camera in interviews. I know there's been a lot of interviews that have been going, seeing viral, old Hollywood interviews where celebrity actresses were mistreated-

Dr. Shefali 40:48 Yes

Jay Shetty 40:49 ... on talk shows.

Dr. Shefali 40:50 Yes.

Jay Shetty 40:50 But they continue to be nice-

Dr. Shefali 40:52 Oh my goodness, yes

Jay Shetty 40:52 ... uh, to the man who is mistreating them in whatever way it would be.

Dr. Shefali 40:55 Right, and you can see them squirming.

Jay Shetty 40:57 Yes, yes.

Dr. Shefali 40:57 But she can't say anything.

Jay Shetty 40:59 She can't say anything. She can't stop him. She-

Dr. Shefali 41:01 Because it's his show.

Jay Shetty 41:02 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 41:02 Right? So we girls have been raised subliminally, subconsciously, to understand it's the man's show. I remember going to the dentist when I was in India, and the man literally kissed me, inappropriately touched me, but I was like, "It's his office." I didn't say it... I didn't say a word of protest because it was his show. So we are raised as young girls to let men have their show. Let the show go on, and you just be quiet, and that's the myth about niceness. And boys don't have that. Boys are encouraged to be rambunctious and, "Oh, you know, he's so naughty," and, "Let him talk. You know, he's a boy." So boys get away with it. And I'm not saying you get away with all of it, but you get away with way more than us girls. So when-

Jay Shetty 41:47 Yeah, boys will be boys

Dr. Shefali 41:48 ... boys will be boys. Girls have to be nice, quiet, kind, obedient, polite, right? We have to sit with our legs really tight, and we have to do this, and we have so many prescriptions. So what does that do? That teaches us that if something is being done that is violating us, our boundary or our emotional health, we are trained to be nice despite that. Like, our first antenna is, "How can I be nice? How can they see me as a nice person?" To, so to be seen as the bitch, right, and, and I'm not encouraging that we should be called a bitch, but to be seen as that is the curse, is the anathema. We don't wanna be seen like that. So in my own personal journey, I had to become comfortable being called a bitch. And then I realized, oh, I'm only called a bitch when I'm not being nice. When I'm nice, no one calls me the bitch. So I had to go through this process of becoming comfortable breaking the barrier of being nice or being seen as nice. So we've been told that niceness will get us love, will get us security, will get us belonging, will get us worth. It's a lie. The more nice you are and avoid conflict, avoid th- the deny- you know, you deny that you're being violated, at the end of many years of being nice, you actually die in your spirit. You know? Yeah, you were nice, but now what? You're dead in your spirit. And women only feel like that after the children are raised, after they've checked off all the lists. Now they're like, "I was nice, but what did I get for myself?" So that's a tragedy if we live our whole life being nice but not being authentic.

Jay Shetty 43:28 Hmm. I love that. These are beautiful. I hope everyone who's listening and watching is hearing this and, and just realizing how much of this is so deeply ingrained. I know I'm listening to it, and I, I catch myself doing it all the time. I think for me, because I was raised primarily by my mom and, and I have a younger sister, I was exposed to their experience of this as much as I could be without being a woman myself. Uh, and, and I think that made me hyper-aware, and it took me... It takes me, even now I catch myself naturally having male privilege without noticing it, right? Like, you don't notice these things. I remember, it was a few years ago now, when I first realized, I was like, "Oh, wait a minute. If my sister wanted to be a soccer player, she could never even have dreamt of it because there were no female soccer players." Like, even something as basic as that, that is so basic.

Dr. Shefali 44:21 Right.

Jay Shetty 44:22 But when you take that to the depths of what we're speaking about here, we're talking about the opportunity to be yourself. Forget about an opportunity to be a soccer player or a, or a career. You're talking about the opportunity to actually be your true self.

Dr. Shefali 44:37 Yeah. I mean, that's so far-

Jay Shetty 44:38 Yeah

Dr. Shefali 44:38 ... because we have to first feel safe.

Jay Shetty 44:40 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 44:41 You know, the other day, uh, three of my girlfriends were in an elevator, and a male came inside the elevator, and he just came in so casually. Sauntered in and sauntered out. That's male privilege. If a woman came into an elevator with three men-

Jay Shetty 44:56 Mm

Dr. Shefali 44:56 ... she'd be really nervous. She'd be waiting for the elevator doors to open or for some woman to walk in with her.

Jay Shetty 45:02 Yeah.

Dr. Shefali 45:02 We are constantly scanning our environment. We grew up in constant threat of predation. This is just the way it is. However, besides that physiological threat, we have mental oppression of all these lies that we've been told of how to be and to be in service. You know? And we want to be in service. Women naturally are nurturing, but we don't want to be in service of others to the obliteration of ourself.

Jay Shetty 45:27 Yeah. Absolutely, of course. I wanna, I wanna ask you this last question, Shefali, before we switch to our final five. Your last chapter's called Embracing Emptiness. I love that because I think that what you do so well is you don't paint, like, a rosy picture of stuff. Like, you never have since we've met. Even in your personal dealings, like, you're not a, you're not a rosy picture painter kind of like, "Oh, this is how perfect evolution looks-

Dr. Shefali 45:55 Right. No

Jay Shetty 45:55 ... or this is how perfect a radical awakening." Even the word radical, right, it's not beautiful in the external sense of what we think of as beauty.

Dr. Shefali 46:04 No.

Jay Shetty 46:04 When you end a book with a chapter called Embracing Emptiness, I'm like, wow, like that, that's a real challenging statement.

Dr. Shefali 46:12 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:12 Tell us about how one needs to and why and how one embraces emptiness.

Dr. Shefali 46:17 Yes. So you and I have really embodied to many aspects, um, the Eastern principles of de-identifying from the external, right? So every spiritual quest at its core is about teaching us that our masks of our false self bring us great suffering. Why? Because we think that's who we are. So we think we are Dr. Shefali or Jay Shetty the podcaster or the fancy author or... We think we are that-

Jay Shetty 46:53 Yeah

Dr. Shefali 46:53 ... and we identify with that. So the woman may identify as being young or the mother or the good one or the peacemaker. When we identify with anything that is a role to the external world, we have unendurable suffering because when that role is taken away, then we are left with who am I? So Buddhism in particular, and I don’t like to call it Buddhism because it has an ism, but what the Buddha taught, in essence, was to detach from these external identifications. And when you do, you discover that you are limitless. You are space. You are energy. You are the I am and the we are, and that we're all interconnected. So if you and me and him and her are all causing and affecting each other, we all cause and effects of each other, then there is no autonomous me. So the ego dissolves, right? So once we have this panned out perspective that we're all interconnected, there is no I as in a solid ego, therefore there is no Jay Shetty or Dr. Shefali. You begin to realize the myth of it all and the illusion of it all. And then you begin to let go and untether, and strangely, as you untether, you become more connected. Because you see that y- you and me are one, and we are all mirrors of each other. So if I hurt you, I will hurt myself. So this is the eternal spiritual quest, to become empty of the ego, to arrive at the emptiness of the individual ego, and surrender to the cosmic connectedness that we are.

Jay Shetty 48:39 Mm. I love that description. That's so beautiful. That and the, the fact that this book goes from our complete... Well, not our, but women's suppression and control ... to that spiritual evolution. I mean, that's beautiful. That's phenomenal that you're able to guide someone. And I've come to your events where I was blown away. I went to one of your events in New York probably about five years ago.

Dr. Shefali 49:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 49:04 And there were people that came on stage to share their journey with you, and it was unbelievable to hear people just, like, talk about how you had privately helped them, either through your practice or through your books and your work. And I can't wait for this book to help so many more people. It's gonna be phenomenal, and, uh, I highly recommend A Radical Awakening to absolutely everyone. We're gonna put the link in the comments, so I want you to order this while you've been listening to this podcast. Uh, we are gonna ask Dr. Shefali her final five, but please at this moment, go and put in your order for the book. Uh, I promise you you won't regret it. I'm sure it's gonna be something that's really, really gonna support you. I loved what Dr. Shefali said, that she's created a step-to-step guide through the tunnel, and that's where we need it most, right? That's where you need it most, the real hand-holding. Uh, so Dr. Shefali, I have your final five that I want to ask you.

Dr. Shefali 49:56 Okay.

Jay Shetty 49:57 These questions have to a- be answered in one word or five to seven words maximum, so like a sentence.

Dr. Shefali 50:03 Okay.

Jay Shetty 50:04 Uh, so these are your final five. The first question is, what's the best advice you've ever received?

Dr. Shefali 50:10 To be free is the greatest gift.

Jay Shetty 50:13 Love it. What's the worst advice you've ever received?

Dr. Shefali 50:16 Be nice.

Jay Shetty 50:17 [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 50:18 Be, be polite, be sweet.

Jay Shetty 50:19 [laughs]

Dr. Shefali 50:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 50:20 Good. Uh, question number three, what's something that men just don't, that men can't be fully empathetic or compassionate for towards women? What can we not understand about a woman's experience? Apart from giving birth and stuff, obviously.

Dr. Shefali 50:36 Yeah, you can't maybe understand how oppressed we are by male desire, by standards of beauty, and how that's oppressive, actually, and y- we need your help to tell us, like, "Don't wear makeup," or, "Don't wear those high heels." We need you to not encourage our, our psychosis.

Jay Shetty 50:58 Yeah. So yeah, that's a role we need to play.

Dr. Shefali 51:01 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:01 It's so funny 'cause every time I see my wife not wearing makeup, I always tell her how cute she looks.

Dr. Shefali 51:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:05 It's not out of... I'm not even conscious. I just think she's adorable.

Dr. Shefali 51:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:08 But it's, it's so funny because she's always like, "What, you think I look cute like this?" I'm like, "Yeah, I do. Like, you look great." Like, but it's, that's how deeply rooted it is that, that you don't even think you can look good without being dressed up and ready. Uh, fourth question, what's your biggest lesson from the last 12 months?

Dr. Shefali 51:26 That there is no future. I think these last 12 months, being the pandemic, has taught us live in the present. There is no future, you know? Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:38 And fifth and final question, if you could create one law that everyone had to follow in the world, what would it be?

Dr. Shefali 51:45 I think my law would be you can't have children until you do some serious, serious inner work.

Jay Shetty 51:55 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 51:55 And yeah, if you're too old, yeah, you can't have children.

Jay Shetty 51:59 Wow.

Dr. Shefali 51:59 You adopt.

Jay Shetty 52:00 Wow. That is a challenging law. But, but I know what you're saying, that you're saying that that responsibility requires certain, uh, skills and abilities and qualities, and-

Dr. Shefali 52:12 I mean, if-

Jay Shetty 52:12 There's no qualification for it. It was... I think it was, it was Adam Grant, actually. Adam Grant posted this research study the other day, and it was showing, like, how much experience is needed to-

Dr. Shefali 52:21 Zero

Jay Shetty 52:21 ... get a job at Walmart-

Dr. Shefali 52:22 Exactly

Jay Shetty 52:23 ... to get a job at this, and then to be a parent, it was like-

Dr. Shefali 52:25 And now you've created the next generation, and you don't know what to do with them, and you pass down your brokenness. I mean, the reason we are in the state we are is because of broken parents.

Jay Shetty 52:35 Yeah. Everyone who's been watching, make sure you tag me and Dr. Shefali on Instagram with your biggest takeaways. Make sure you go and follow Dr. Shefali across all social media channels. We love to see what resonated with you, so when you tag us on any platforms, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, we'll be w- watching out for what really stood out to you and resonated to you. Again, the name of the book is A Radical Awakening. It's in the comments. Uh, turn pain into power, embrace your truth, and live free. Dr. Shefali, thank you so much.

Dr. Shefali 53:06 Thank you for having me.

Jay Shetty 53:07 Thank you. That was beautiful. [upbeat music] Book Think Like a Monk from thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description to make sure you order today