Jay Shetty PodcastLove Expert Matthew Hussey: #1 Mistake That is Keeping You Stuck!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,040 words- 0:00 – 0:49
Intro
- JSJay Shetty
I am so excited to be here tonight at the AT&T Performing Arts Center in Dallas with my dear friend, Matthew Hussey.
- SPSpeaker
[cheering] [clapping]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Wow.
- JSJay Shetty
Oh my God.
- MHMatthew Hussey
[laughs] It's lovely to be with you all. I was sat, uh, right there actually watching the first half with all of you, and it was so fun. I enjoyed it. You were amazing. I loved it. I loved being out there with you all. It's weird to now be on this side of it.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Well, thank you for coming, man. Uh, Matthew and I have been friends for a few years, and I've always found your love, relationship, dating advice to be so fascinating and interesting, and I feel like you have such a good perspective on it all. And I know a lot of people here were very excited to dive deep into it. So let's, let's dive straight in. I wanna start with probably one of my favorite questions to ask you is
- 0:49 – 4:38
How to Stay Open to Love
- JSJay Shetty
how do you stay open to love when you're exhausted by dating? I feel like r- how many of you are dating right now? Make some noise.
- SPSpeaker
[cheering]
- JSJay Shetty
Right. So people are tired of dating apps. They're tired of dating. They're tired of figuring out what to wear, whose, who's pays the bills, how much do you spend, like all this stuff. Dating's become exhausting. How do you stay open to love when dating has become so tiring?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I think, um, dating is an interesting word because if you just, if you just take away the word dating, we are just human beings that deeply want to connect with each other. We really, most of us I think, if not all of us, deeply want to find love whether we admit it or not. We wanna have that experience. And it's a, uh, the idea of dating in order to find love is the part people hate. We don't wanna do the process, but we really want the result. And I'm a, I'm a big believer in the idea that we have to stop seeing it as dating and start seeing this is just an ongoing expression of parts of ourselves that we want to express anyway. Uh, y- who among you doesn't just enjoy being flirtatious at times because that's part of you? Who among you doesn't have a sexual side that wants to be expressed because that's part of you? Uh, you know, who here doesn't just enjoy having a conversation with someone cute not knowing where it might go? I, I think sometimes we lose that when we become obsessed with the goal all of the time.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
We, we lose the expression of ourselves that actually ironically is the thing that leads to the goal if we can access that. The problem is that playfulness gets lost. Once we start freaking out about our timeline, we start freaking out, we want a family, uh, we're worried that we're gonna run out of time, y- you know, we wanna get married, we see all of our friends getting married, we're the one who's still left, we think there's something wrong with us, we're starting to worry that it's never gonna happen for us. That kind of anxious, fearful energy robs us of our playfulness, and now we go on a date a- as a, a kind of shadow of the person that we once were when we started this process, as someone taking it very seriously, as someone who the moment they re- the, the moment you give an answer on a date that I don't like, I'm, uh, I, I'm not like I'm on a date with a stranger who just said something. I'm like, "You, y- you're wasting my time."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
"What are you, what are we doing? I d- I gave you an evening, and you just gave the wrong answer. You just gave the answer that means I know you're wrong for me. Why the [censored] am I here now?"
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
"I'm mad at you."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
But, uh, but you don't even know this person, you know? So we lose, we lose the curiosity, we lose the play, and we get, we get kind of further and further stuck.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, the idea of switching dating for connecting, relating, flirting is such a healthy mindset because dating now has so much baggage, and it, that word carries so much weight. And it, as you said earlier, if you've started to feel that it's exhausting and tiring and draining, that word now, "Oh, I have to go on a date," comes with, "Oh, God, I've gotta get ready. Oh, gosh, like how long is it gonna be? Can I get out early?" Like, and so that word's carrying so much weight now. Whereas when you start saying, "Wait a minute, just see it as connecting, just see it as relating, just see it as flirting," all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, I can do that. That's possible for me."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah. And it might be worth it for its own sake. There might be something about this process of connecting with other human beings that is worth
- 4:38 – 10:53
Is Chemistry Actually Misleading?
- MHMatthew Hussey
it for its own sake.
- JSJay Shetty
Is chemistry overrated, underrated, or properly rated? And defend your answer.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I'm gonna say, uh, we overrate the wrong kind of chemistry.
- JSJay Shetty
Okay.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And we underrate the right kind of chemistry. [laughs] Thank you.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[cheering] [clapping]
- MHMatthew Hussey
I think that we get chemistry mixed up with a whole bunch of other things that aren't really chemistry. Like, uh, someone doesn't text you back, and you get a feeling in your stomach, and you go, "This must matter a lot 'cause it's making me feel awful. Why do I feel like crap right now that this person isn't texting me? I feel afraid. I don't feel good enough." Uh, uh, and then, and then, you know, hours later after waiting and waiting and waiting, they text you, and all of a sudden you go, " [sighs] Ah."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
"I'm okay. I'm okay."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
"Oh, that feels so good."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
And you go, "I really like this person." [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
It had nothing to do with the person. You, you... It had everything to do with their absence. Are you in love with their presence or are you in love with their absence? You know, we get addicted to these cycles with people, and it's kind of what we know, and it's very, very dangerous.We, we... It happens to us all the time, and it happens very quickly, and very subtly, and very sneakily. Um, a lot of us w- will get suspicious if someone likes us too much.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] That's so true.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's almost like if someone likes us a lot, we go, "There must be something wrong with you."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
But then someone comes along and they're not sure about us, and you go, "You might be onto something."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's like we date, uh, as if, um, as if dating is a VIP nightclub. There's great places. You could go and have an amazing time in these places. They're serving the same drinks. There's even better people at these places 'cause they're not pretentious, and they don't take themselves so seriously, and there's just people having a good time, and they're not trying to show off by the fact that they're in the right club. And then you walk past one place, and there's a big dude with a guest list.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
And you go, "What's that?"
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
And you try and go in that place, and they say, "I'm sorry, your name's not on the list." And all of a sudden you start wondering what amazing things must be going on back there.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
There's nothing amazing going on back there. They're creating demand so that you wanna be in there.
- 10:53 – 14:56
Healthy Standards vs Unrealistic Expectations
- JSJay Shetty
saying. So I wanna ask you, what's the difference between healthy standards and unrealistic expectations?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I, I come across people a lot who will tell me, "I have real- My problem is my standards are too high." And I'll be like, "Tell me about your standards. What are they?" And they'll start reeling off standards they have for, you know, the way someone looks and the, where they've got to in life and, you know, who, how impressive this person is, how shiny this person is, and how... the kind of person they need to hold them. And then I'll say, "Well, when was the last time you felt that?" And then they'll start talking about some person in their life that has been treating them horribly for the last two years. Uh, they've been on and off with this person. They've been constantly kept in limbo. They've never felt like they were really chosen by that person, and they're like, "That was... That's who I really feel it with, you know? But I just... I need to find, like... If I could just get that person to commit, then I'd be happy." I'm like, "So, so when you say you have high standards, what you really mean is you have incredibly high standards for things that are incredibly superficial or don't matter, and you have no standards-For someone's character or for how they treat you. People who say they have high standards often have nonexistent standards for being treated well. So my philosophy on standards is when we talk about what are healthy standards, we have to start raising our standards in the areas that really matter. How kind is someone? Can I actually rely on them to show up for me? When I was first dating my wife, on our, like, third or fourth date, we were supposed to meet up. I went to the theater in London with my family, and at the end of this show, I was like, "Hey, you know, why don't you come over this way and we'll go somewhere," whatever. And she... I didn't know this until later, but she was not happy with this because she had been to me the last, like, three times. She sent me a message and she said, "Hey, um, there's a really great bar near me. Um, I think you'll love it. Let's go there." And I was like, "You know, my family's here. We just went to the theater. It'd be a lot easier tonight if you came this way. Do you mind?" And she was like, "No, no, it's... Listen, it's all good. We'll do another night." She took it away. [laughs] She said, "Okay, let's not have a date tonight." She didn't do it in a, an aggressive way or even a passive-aggressive way. She just said, "Let's do another night." That was a healthy standard. That was her way of saying, "You are gonna have to start meeting me halfway or this isn't gonna work." She didn't have to say it. She just had to live that standard, and when it wasn't being met by me, she kindly took it off the table. And had I the next night said, "Can you come to me?" she would've done the same thing again. That's a healthy standard, and a lot of us when we think we have standards, what we really mean is w- we have a list, exactly, and there's a, there's a big, big difference 'cause a lot of people with a list are being treated the worst and seem to be okay with it.
- JSJay Shetty
Audrey, how long did it take him to get the message? Where are you?
- MHMatthew Hussey
She out there.
- JSJay Shetty
I'm asking Matthew's wife. [laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
That night.
- JSJay Shetty
Oh, that night. Oh, he's... He was on it. Okay. Yeah. He was, he was smart enough to get the message. I love that. But that's such a great example of someone also communicating their standard in a way that isn't aggressive, that doesn't create drama, that isn't, like, making it a big deal, but is just clearly saying, like, "Well, this is what would work for me
- 14:56 – 22:12
Are Your Needs Being Met?
- JSJay Shetty
tonight." What I wanna get into is why are we so scared? And this, by the way, happens even if you're already married, even if you're in a relationship, even if you've been together for a few years. We're so scared of communicating our actual needs because we're scared it will scare the other person away. And so we'll tolerate bad behavior and accept less than we deserve. Before you came out, I asked everyone how many people have accepted less than they deserve, and the crowd went ballistic [laughs] which is always funny. But, but it's true, right? And, and I'm saying that with empathy, like, we all do that to ourselves and it's, and it's painful when you realize, "Wait a minute, I, I don't communicate what I'm saying because I'm scared of that pushing that person away." Walk me through that. Why do we do that, and how do we get better at it?
- MHMatthew Hussey
A big problem for us is we're more connected in the moment to the fear of losing someone than we're connected to the pain we have experienced in the past by not sticking to our standards. So the pain in the moment that's more real is, "I wanna find love and this person seems like a viable candidate and I don't wanna lose them." But we've been in situations in the past where we didn't follow a standard, where we didn't say, "This is what I need," and we were in a miserable relationship as a result. Like, uh, think of a relationship where you didn't get your needs met, just everyone for a moment. So I can think of one. I, I remember a, a relationship that was hell on earth for me where I did not get my needs met. Think for a moment about a relationship where you didn't feel loved, where you didn't feel considered, where you felt like you were always an afterthought, where you felt like someone made plans unilaterally and you never got a decision, you never got a vote, they just came to you at the end of having made them. Anyone felt that one? Horrible, right? You never know what your life's gonna be 'cause someone else is running it for you. Ever been in a relationship where you didn't feel that someone was affectionate in the ways that you needed, or where you didn't get the touch that you needed, or the sex that you needed, or whatever it was? Think of a relationship where your standard, although it wasn't a standard then, but your need wasn't met. I bet you it was a special kind of torture. And when we're first out of a relationship like that, we're very connected to that torture, and that can make us say never again. But the longer we're single, the longer we're on our own, the more disconnected we become from the pain of that and more connected we become to the pain of being alone and to the fear of never finding someone. But it's a false economy to, uh, lower our standards in order to get someone quicker because going slow is faster.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] That's a great little-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Going slow is faster. When it comes to love, going slow is faster. You know what's slow? Like, ending up in the wrong relationship for five years. Losing someone in month three because you realize you're not on the same page or going slow when someone else is trying to, like, you know, go full throttle who you met last night and is already telling you how amazing you are and how they can't wait to see you again and how they wanna have your babies. It's likeIt can feel like, oh, this is... In some way we know there's something wrong with that, but also kind of it feels nice 'cause it's like-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
... this is exactly, like, finally someone's at least, like, this into me. So it can feel weird to go to put the brakes on somebody else, but we go slow to go fast. You can only know someone's impact in the beginning. You can't know their character. I don't care how great they were on a date. No matter how amazing someone felt on a date, you do not know their character. You only know their impact. Character can only be measured over time, so you need time. [audience applauding]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. That resonates so strongly. I've, I've always said, "Don't fall in love too fast," because, you know, we start making future plans with someone and we don't even know their past. We, we start dreaming up what life could look like when we haven't even lived a day with them or a month with them or a year with them, and it's so fascinating how the mind is this imagination machine. Like, we're the best fiction writers in the world in our mind.
- MHMatthew Hussey
The best.
- JSJay Shetty
And we get so carried away with the version we're writing in our mind only to realize that reality never really caught up. But we were living in the promise. I was literally talking to someone that... a client of mine a couple of nights ago, and they were just saying to me, they were like, "Jay, now as I'm talking to you, I'm realizing I was just living in the promise. I never actually had it, but there was the promise. One day we'll have this. One day we'll do this together. One day we'll move in. One day we'll do this. One day, one day, one day," and it was just living in promise world and dreamland, but never in the reality of where they were.
- MHMatthew Hussey
By the way, I've done this with, like, men I've met when I go out, and I, like, will go to a social function and meet another guy who's just, like, charmed their pants off. I'm just like, "Oh my God, this guy is amazing." I would say to Audrey, my wife, I'll be like, "That guy was the best." [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
I've come to learn this about myself, that I can't trust my judgment in the first hour.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Because some of the, some of the men in my... Like, some of the guys that made the greatest impression on me, that I was enamor- Like, I was like, "I just wanna be this dude's friend. We're gonna be best friends. I know it from the way he spoke to me tonight." I'm like, six months later, I'm like, "I can't stand this guy."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
"This guy is terrible." Like, "And this guy does this to everybody, and this guy is, he's just, he's that guy." And I, I... There's a wonderful phrase that will save you all a lot of heartbreak, and that phrase is just, "We'll see." It doesn't... By the way, you don't have to lose your romance to say, "We'll see." Your f-friends will come to you. "How was your date last night?" "So great. We had so much fun. Like, I haven't had that much fun in a long time." "Oh my God, that's so exciting."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
"Do you think that..." Easy. We'll see.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
You can have both.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
You can have both, but the "we'll see" is really important because character is consistent, and you can only measure consistency over time. [audience applauding]
- JSJay Shetty
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- 22:12 – 26:48
How Do You Know They’re the One?
- JSJay Shetty
I wanna ask you a question that always goes through everyone's mind, and seeing as you're on fire tonight-
- MHMatthew Hussey
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... hitting it out of the park, this is like, let's, let's go for all the tough ones. How do you know if someone is the one? In a world where there's plenty of fish in the sea, we're constantly being exposed to other people, it doesn't take that long to feel like there's a million more options. How do you know if you're with the one or if you're just settling?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I think it's really interesting. This is a weird comparison, but I think it's really interesting to watch someone who's built something really amazing in their career. Like, I've, I've watched Jay for a long time, and we'd ha-had been lucky to be friends for s-for some years. But, you know, I had seen Jay doing his thing before I ever had met you, and it's such a joy to see this act of creation happening over and over again in your life, where what you started doing evolved and changed, and it keeps evolving and changing. It... the core of it is the same, and what's driving you is there, and the, the values that you have and... but it's changed over and over again because you're constantly sculpting it to be your ideal version of it, and it didn't start as your ideal version of it. It started with, like, a, "It's got enough of what I need that I can keep going with this because I feel like I'm on the right path." That's what that journey is like in our careers. You don't find the dream job. You create the dream job, right? [audience cheering] It's... You know, the, the, the thing I think that makes us never able to stick with a career or a business or an idea is that we want it to be our dream thing on day one, and it just doesn't work like that. It needs to be sculpted. There are plenty of people in here who have created businesses that look very different than the business you started on day one because you kept sculpting it. You realize, "I don't like that part of it as much as I thought I would. Let me change that." But the core of it is the same. It's like that in our love lives.When we go around saying, "Who's the one for me?" We are missing the point that what we do is we find a human being where there's enough of the good stuff, enough of the values and the compatibility, a much underrated thing. If chemistry is overrated, compatibility is woefully underrated. Com- love is not all you need. Compatibility is all you need. We find people, and we expect so much on day one, and I think that, like great sex, it should get better over time. You meet someone, and they learn you, and you learn them, and it gets better because you learn each other. That, to me, is what a relationship is like. So it's finding someone with enough of the raw materials, enough of the things that make you go, "Oh, this kinda works. I feel more myself around you. I feel at home in the best way. I don't feel like I'm trying to be something that I'm not to impress you. I see you. You see me. It kinda-- There's something interesting here." And I think if we can get curious about those feelings instead of looking for this kind of otherworldly feeling, we'll realize how many people we could actually work with. And then it starts to get really interesting 'cause you realize there's a lot more ones than you knew, and you don't start with the one. It-- someone ends up as the one. I think that's the difference. They don't start as the one. They end up being the one because of what you've built together. And now you look back, and they go, they, "Oh, look. They're the one." [audience cheering] But not on day one. I, I think love at first sight is a very, very dangerous concept.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Like, love at first sight is such an insult to two people who have been married for thirty years. You know what I mean?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I just... They're the one. Okay. Tell that to two people who have been married for decades and have, like, weathered storms, and one of them got sick, and the other one drove them to the hospital every week, and their relative had a drug problem, and you had to put up with that relative with the drug problem because this is the love of your life, but you figured it out together, and you... Like, that, that to me is love. Love isn't, "I went on a date and now, like-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
... oh, my God, I feel the best I've ever felt."
- JSJay Shetty
I think that's so powerful, and what a great perspective
- 26:48 – 31:20
Why Great Relationships Take Discipline
- JSJay Shetty
because, yeah, I was thinking about that as you were saying that, you know, when me and Rali first got together, and then we got engaged and got married, I thought I knew her, but it's actually through the last twelve years we've been married, uh, nine years we've been married, twelve years we've been together, that I actually feel like I understand how little I knew her when I said "I love you," which is a really fascinating journey to go on, to your point, where it's like the day we got married was not the day I loved her the most. It actually wasn't even possible, even though I may have said that on that day. And it's now when we moved to a new country and didn't have any family or friends, and when we were four months away from being broke, and she said, "I trust you," and then the next morning wanted to buy a plant, right? It was like [laughs] moments like that. It's moments like that, and then you move to another place, and you build community, and you take care of your family and rush... Like, it's, it's all those moments where you go, "Oh, now I know what love means, and now I'm building the skills and the toolkit of what it means to truly love you." And actually, my biggest mistake was I also thought I knew you when we got married, and now I, I realize I didn't. So what, what I love about the advice you're giving of create it, you don't find it, is that it's, that never stops. What you're saying never stops, and that's why it's great advice because if you had to find the one, that means you were done the moment you found that person, and that mindset creates such a fracture with reality, which is, wait a minute, you're gonna have to create and build, using your words, create and build every five, ten, fifteen, twenty years. It's never gonna stop.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And that, and that requires discipline. It, and it requires discipline, and it requires being connected to your, to your why, to your reasons why the relationship itself is important. I think that's one of the most, um, missed things in so many relationships is I have these things I call emotional buttons, and they are basically how I access an emotion that I want to feel again. So for example, there's a moment in the movie The Fighter, uh, with, uh, Mark Wahlberg and, uh-
- JSJay Shetty
Christian Bale
- MHMatthew Hussey
... Christian Bale.
- JSJay Shetty
Christian Bale, yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
There's a moment where Mark Wahlberg is-- This is gonna sound crazy specific, but this is how emotional buttons are. Mark Wahlberg is about to go into his last fight, and he's nervous, and his brother, uh, comes up to him, and he puts his head on his head, and he just rocks with him. And the crowd is going crazy, and it's all... You can feel the chaos and the nerves, and his bigger brother just comes and makes him feel safe. And that scene, I get goosebumps as I say it, that scene, I cannot think of that scene without thinking about the kind of brother I w- I have two younger brothers, without thinking of the kind of brother I wanna be to my brothers. My... No, I'm not gonna say that one 'cause that one's about Audrey, and it's too... She doesn't know I have this emotional button, but it's-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Say it. Say it. No, because then, no, because it's a thing, it's a, it's a little thing she does. If I say it, she will stop doing it 'cause she'll become aware of it. [laughs] And it makes me love her so much.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
But it's a little thing she does, and when she does it, it re- I feel a deep... It's, like, a not a rational thing. I feel a deep, deep sense of love f- for her, and I th- wanna, like, make her as happy as I possibly can. I get that because I th- I think of that thing that she does, and it connects meIt connects me to my why for why I wanna show up differently in the relationship. And a lot of us don't have these emotional buttons or we don't-- and we certainly don't use them consciously every day. We-- Winston Churchill said, "People occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and carry on as if nothing happened."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
We occasionally stumble over a moment of truth about why we love someone, about why they matter so much to us, about how much our relationship enriches and enhances our lives. Uh, if we don't understand what just happened that made us feel that and bottle that, we will move on as if nothing happened, and then the next time we feel it, it will be by chance. And if that's three months from now, you just went three months without connecting to that feeling, which is three months where you might be, you know, showing up in, in lesser ways to the relationship.
- 31:20 – 34:35
Should Relationships Feel Hard?
- JSJay Shetty
On the other end of that, when is the work too much work? Right? Because there's a spectrum on that. So on one side, we're saying, "Hey, we've gotta create it. You've gotta build it. You've gotta work on it." And then I'm sure there are people in the audience going, "I've been working on it for a few..." You know. Or, "Someone made me work on it for quite a while, and then I realized..." When do you know it's too much work? Like, how do you know when you're at that end of the spectrum?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I don't think there's any one moment. I think it-- when we realize over time that we have shown up to the best of our ability and we have tried to find a teammate in them, because you can't... It's, it's, you have to have a teammate for that. If you, if you want something to change, you need a teammate in helping you make that change or you, you need their participation in that. There are so many people trying to make a relationship better on their own. You need someone to be with you in that process. If you don't have a teammate, if you don't have someone who acknowledges, like... That's why being with a partner who doesn't value growth is so hard. 'Cause you don't have to have someone who's perfect. If you have a learner, someone who's humble, curious, willing to grow. Um, but if over time, someone shows a complete lack of willingness to, to figure this out with you, and you've communicated that with them, that, I think, is, its own form of closure. The problem for a lot of people is that they only really communicate how truly unhappy they are or how many things they've been struggling with on the day of the breakup. That, especially in a long-term relationship, that's not a fair thing to do to our partner. Like, I think we owe it to ourselves and to them to give us-- to create the closure of, "Here's what I'm really struggling with, and I'm bringing this to you because I actually care about this relationship, and I feel safe enough to bring it to you and to have that conversation. But it's really affecting me, and this is really, uh, you know, it's affecting me in this way, in this way, in this way. I need us to work on this. I need us to take this seriously." Whatever that means, whether you and I do it, whether we do it with a coach or a therapist, whe- whatever we do, I need us to take this seriously. This needs to be a priority for us. You and me looking at the problem, not you-- me looking at you as the problem. You and me together looking at the problem and saying, "This is an issue. Can we figure this out?" I think then if, if over a series of months, you're like, "I haven't got a partner in this process," or things aren't getting better, one or the other, then you might make that decision. But it-- even if you realize you do have a partner in the process, but it doesn't get better, at least your partner doesn't wake up one day to a complete ambush of having no idea any of this was a problem, and then all of a sudden they get hit with it all today. I think we owe it to each other to, for someone not to be surprised on the day that it ended about the things that made it end.
- 34:35 – 38:05
Why Communication Feels So Difficult
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. There's such a reality to communication being the hardest part, not because we're even bad people, but because we were just never trained in an emotional vocabulary. Right? If you didn't see great love mirrored, you weren't able to mirror it. If the people in your life always just shut down when there was a problem, then you may shut down. Or like you said, not only do you only have the conversation on the day of the breakup, you only have the conversation as an argument. So it was never a conversation. It was an argument, a disagreement, a, a full-blown fight. It was never shared in that moment where maybe it could have been digested, maybe it could have been heard, maybe-
- MHMatthew Hussey
And a lot of that, a lot of our fear of saying the thing that feels unspeakable is our desire for control. We're trying to control the situation, and when we're... Like, a lot of us, and I-- listen, no judgment 'cause I've done this several times in my life, and I'm not proud of it. But w- we are trying to protect ourselves, and so we hold back and hold back and hold back and hold back. In the meantime, by the way, we're grieving. We're grieving the relationship. We're just not telling them that we're grieving the relationship or vice versa. Some- I, I've also been on the other side of this and so have many of you. That's why you can, someone can break up with you, and then two weeks later, they're with someone else. And you're like, "How is that possible? How is it possible that you moved on so fast?" They didn't move on so fast. They, they broke up with you six months ago. You're just hearing about it today.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
That's because they were trying to control it. It felt safe to them to control it until the last possible minute when they felt safe to leave.And then they left. But their controlling of it is what makes it such a traumatic thing for us, and vice versa. So sometimes when we are unhappy in a relationship, we have to relinquish some control and allow things to break to maybe get better or not. But once you put your ... Once you break it in some way with your partner in the process, you're also now not fully in control of the situation, 'cause they can't un-know what they know. Now, that makes us have to live a little more dangerously. [laughs] But that also might be the thing that makes us attracted to our partner again. 'Cause now that they know, they might start doing some things. And you may not even love everything they do, but it might make you start to feel that jolt of like, you know, something again.
- JSJay Shetty
Matthew Hussey, everyone. [applause] That was ... Wow. Turned up tonight, Matthew. All right. Before we let you go, because you've been on the podcast multiple times, which we usually end with the final five, we came up with a new version that you can join in on as well. It's called Vibe Check. And so I'm gonna read out some scenarios in love, relationships, or dating, and the audience is gonna decide first whether it's a vibe, which means, yes, that's great, or not a vibe. So let me hear you say, "It's a vibe."
- SPSpeaker
It's a vibe.
- MHMatthew Hussey
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
And then, "Not a vibe."
- SPSpeaker
Not a vibe.
- JSJay Shetty
Nice. And then I'm gonna ask Matthew whether he agrees or disagrees with the audience. All right? So Vibe Check, here we go. The first
- 38:05 – 39:20
Chemistry vs Compatibility
- JSJay Shetty
one: You're dating someone who always shows up, always listens, always texts back. They're kind, respectful, but the chemistry isn't there. You keep the relationship going because it's the first healthy relationship you've ever been in. Is it a vibe?
- SPSpeaker
No. [shouting]
- JSJay Shetty
All right. I'm gonna ask you to make noise on either one. So it's a vibe, make noise.
- SPSpeaker
[cheering]
- JSJay Shetty
Not a vibe, make noise.
- SPSpeaker
[cheering]
- JSJay Shetty
That was, like, mildly not a vibe won by a tiny amount. So they're saying it's not a vibe if you keep the relationship going because it's the first healthy relationship you've ever been in.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I, I don't ... Listen, don't keep it going for, like, a year. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
But, like, give it maybe a, a, you know, a month to settle in.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Like, settle in and see if you can get used to this new feeling, uh, 'cause it's a new feeling. If you're used to, like, crazy chaos, this will be boring for a minute. No one, no one comes off of drugs and then enjoys a sunset the next day.
- SPSpeaker
[cheering] [applause]
- JSJay Shetty
Oh, great answer.
- 39:20 – 40:19
When Should You Meet Friends and Family?
- JSJay Shetty
You've been dating someone for six months. They treat you like a priority, talk about long-term potential, but haven't introduced you to any of their friends or family. And when you ask, they say it's still early. Make some noise if it's a vibe.
- SPSpeaker
[shouting]
- JSJay Shetty
It's not a vibe.
- SPSpeaker
[shouting]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Very clearly not a vibe.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Not a vibe.
- JSJay Shetty
When should that be happening with that conversation?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I mean, listen, there's certain situations that are different. Like, if someone has kids, complicated. And y- you have to be respectful of the fact that someone might be taking a serious amount of time before introducing you to those. But if you're talking about, like, their friends or their family, even just their friends, that's a weird thing after six months if you haven't met anyone in their world-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
... to verify who this human being is.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
No, not a vibe.
- JSJay Shetty
All right.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Definitely not a vibe.
- JSJay Shetty
Great. I think we're all agreed on that. All right, last one for all of those who are struggling with dating
- 40:19 – 42:43
Keeping Your Relationship Off Social Media
- JSJay Shetty
out there. You've been seeing someone consistently. Great dates, great connection, but they don't follow you on social media. They never post you. They say they like to keep their private life private.
- MHMatthew Hussey
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Is it a vibe?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [shouting]
- JSJay Shetty
Is it not a vibe?
- SPSpeaker
No. [shouting]
- JSJay Shetty
Oh, that's pretty equal.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Like, the ... Who was saying it's a vibe?
- JSJay Shetty
Is it a vibe? Make some noise.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [cheering]
- MHMatthew Hussey
How ... Wait, for how ... They n- they don't f- Did you say they don't follow you?
- JSJay Shetty
They don't follow you on social media.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, come on.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
They don't follow you?
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's, it's ... Listen, it's one thing if someone's like, "I don't..." I mean, are they famous?
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Like, if someone's like, uh, very famous and they're like, "I don't wanna post about you right now 'cause it's gonna make your life miserable, trust me." But he's probably not famous.
- JSJay Shetty
There's this whole trend right now about how if someone doesn't have social media and doesn't post, it's someone's Roman Empire, right? It's, like, so attractive if someone-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah. I do think that. I do ... Listen, I don't think that it's necessary for them to post about you anytime soon. I do, I do think that, and I think it's lovely when someone is just like, their, their private life is not out there in the world in that way. But it's a bit weird when they're not following you-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
... or they're sort of, like, not having any interaction, not dr- You know.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
"I don't wanna create any kind of feedback loop whatsoever." Suspicious.
- JSJay Shetty
Te- tell my wife that. My wife, my wife started listening to On Purpose, like, last year for the first time. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
That's kind of like not following me, right? Like-
- MHMatthew Hussey
She ... Yeah.
- 42:43 – 45:07
The Secret to a Lasting Marriage
- JSJay Shetty
the secret sauce for like a long-term marriage? What's your name? Sahar. Sahar, nice to meet you. Where are you from? Houston. Awesome. Well, actually-
- SPSpeaker
[cheering]
- JSJay Shetty
From Surrey. I was born in- What, in England? Yep. Oh, no way.
- SPSpeaker
Ooh.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Well, I think you should start with this one. You've had a long-term marriage.
- JSJay Shetty
Longer term, yeah, to some degree.
- SPSpeaker
[laughing]
- JSJay Shetty
Um, I'd honestly say the biggest thing that I've seen work for us, and I've seen work for the couples I interviewed for my last book who've been together for decades, far longer than we have, is people who never tried to change each other. Respect means I'm not trying to change you. I'm happy to watch you grow. I'm patient while you grow, but I'm not forcing you to become the person I want you to be or need you to be. I'm happy to let you have the freedom to be the person you are. Because over your relationship, people are gonna play so many different roles. They're gonna take on so many different hats. There's gonna be so many different transitions that if I don't respect you and let you be who you are, that's gonna be the reason why we can't be together. And those signs of who someone was were really evident in the beginning. You just shut them out because the chemistry or the attraction overtook them. I'll give an example. For me, since Radhi's met me, my purpose has always been my number one priority, and my purpose didn't look like this when we met. It looked like me booking a tiny little room in London and speaking to five people on a Friday night, but Radhi knew that that was my priority. And ever since I met Radhi, I knew her priority was being with her family. She adores them. She loves them. She's the incredible, bubbly human being because of the love that she has for her family. And at so many points in our life, my wife could have said, "You work too hard. You focus too much on your purpose." And I could have said, "Well, we've built an amazing life. Why do you need to always go hang out with your parents?" And, and those two things would have broken our relationship, but I understand that her family is what makes her the person I love, and she understands that me doing this is makes me the person that she loves.
- SPSpeaker
Woo! [applauding]
- JSJay Shetty
And so that's, that's the number one piece of advice I'd give.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I love that answer. I love that.
- 45:07 – 50:43
It’s Not Your Job to Fix Someone
- SPSpeaker
Hi, I'm Victoria from Houston.
- JSJay Shetty
Hey, Victoria.
- SPSpeaker
Hi.
- JSJay Shetty
A lot of Houston in the house. Thank you so much.
- SPSpeaker
Um, I just wanna know if you think cheating is forgivable, whether emotionally or physically.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's a nice easy one.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[applauding]
- JSJay Shetty
Matthew, why don't you go first this time? [laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
I should have gone first on that one.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Uh, I think I heard Robert Greene once use the phrase, "If someone-- N- nobody ever does something once." Okay? If, if someone did something, assume it's a pattern or that they've done it in the past many times. Now, I, I think that's really great survival ad- If I was giving, like, handing out a, survival advice for life and human behavior, I would say that's a really, really important lesson. I also have to temper that logic with a bit of humanity and compassion for ourselves, which is that probably everyone in this room has done something in the past that they regret and wouldn't do again, and learned from, and wish they hadn't done, and that informed your life. It changed your life in some way. Uh, there's a British poet, David Whyte, who can't stand the culture of no reg- #noregrets that we all live in today. He said, "Anytime I hear someone say no regrets, I think, where have you been?"
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughing]
- MHMatthew Hussey
Uh, regret is actually important. It serves a very important function. When you regret how you treated someone in high school because you were mean to someone or you bullied someone and that inf- that affects you, it might change the way you treat people for the rest of your life. If you didn't regret it, you wouldn't change. [laughs] Do I believe once a cheater, always a cheater? I think life's more complicated than that, and I think that part of having compassion for ourselves is realizing that other people are capable, uh, uh, and, and worthy of forgiveness too. But, and there is a really, really, really big but here. It's not your job to fix what someone else broke.
- SPSpeaker
Woo! [applauding]
- MHMatthew Hussey
The trauma of that kind of betrayal is deep for most people, extraordinarily deep. So if you betray someone in that way, you better-- if you want that relationship, you better understand the journey that is ahead because there is a long journey ahead. You are not in a sprint. "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry," that's a sprint. You're in a marathon, and you saying sorry might be an acknowledgement today. It might help someone feel seen today, but in six months, it won't stop their emotional flashback. It won't stop them having a, a, a revisit of these feelings a year from now when they think about that betrayal, and you're gonna have to be along for that ride, and respect the damage you have done, and respect that your job now is to be an enormous part of the reparation of that damage. What I see routinely is people who have been cheated on trying to do the work for the both of them.Like, uh, can I be back with them? I don't know. What are they saying right now? What are they saying? Are they saying, you know, "I know I, I know what I've done. I know that this has caused deep damage. I know this is gonna take a long time. I am gonna be with you the whole way. Not only that, I'm gonna f- whatev- the thing that happened for me, that what triggered that, it is never gonna trigger me again in that way. That's never gonna be my response to that trigger again because I'm gonna go out and do the work to make sure that that's never my response to that trigger again." And that might mean therapy over time, it might mean coaching over time. It, it, is that for... It's gonna be a long journey for them, right? There, there's a great line, um, Jacob M. Broad said, "Consider how hard it is to change yourself, and you'll realize how foolish it is to think you can change someone else." [audience cheering] How many of you at the beginning of e- of every year set a resolution that's really, really, really important to you, and then by the end of January you've broken it? That was something you decided to change, and you couldn't stick to it. Now imagine being with someone who cheated and, and even though they're sorry because it's inconvenient right now that the relationship is falling apart, they don't actually want to change the fundamental part of them that made them cheat in the first place. If they don't wanna do that work, there's no amount of forgiveness on your side that will make any difference to this relationship whatsoever. So be forgiving. That's a very kind and compassionate act. Don't be a fool. [audience cheering]
- JSJay Shetty
Mic drop. No n- no need to... No additions. That's a beautiful answer. No need.
- 50:43 – 57:34
The Need to Stay in Control
- SPSpeaker
Hello.
- JSJay Shetty
Hello. What's your name?
- SPSpeaker
My name is Pierrette Nentang. Uh, this is my dream, by the way, to be here and meet you, Jay.
- JSJay Shetty
Aw, thank you. [audience cheering] So great for you.
- SPSpeaker
How do you deal... I, I think this is for Matthew, since you're the dating expert. Uh, not that I don't trust you, Jay, but-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Um, I haven't dated in a long time because it's been a lot of work to figure myself, deal with the traumas, blah, blah, blah. And I'm in a place where, like, you would think that I'm ready to date because I am who... I know who I am, but at the same time, I'm forty-three. I'm independent. I pay my bills. I take myself on dates. I accept my friend requests. I, I mean, I love my company, but then I also crave... I've always had a dream about having a partner. Um, so it's like I want to meet somebody, but at the same time, I can do bad by my own self. I don't want to get in a relationship where I have to build somebody up. I don't wanna get in a relationship where I owe somebody or they feel like they're improving my life, because right now I'm taking care of my life in every way. Um, I don't mind eating alone. I buy myself flowers.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I buy myself everything I want, and I'm not rich, but I'm happy.
- JSJay Shetty
Got it.
- SPSpeaker
So, um, how do I go out? Like, how do I start? Like, how do I... Like, what do I do?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I'm happy, but... [audience cheering]
- JSJay Shetty
Thank you.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's a wonderful thing that you have gotten to that point in your life where you, uh, know who you are, you've done all of this work on yourself, and the- there's a safety that you have created in the life that you have built. What I hear is that there's this other part of your life that you really want, that you keep saying you want, but it represents an area of life that you can't control the way you can control everything else. You can control your work. You can control how you take care of yourself. You can control the food you eat. You can control, you know, if one friend lets you down, you find... You, you put your effort on another friend. You... Like, you've built all this safety. But at a certain point, what you call independence is really a desire to keep clinging to control. [audience clapping] And, and that, by the way, that would be fine, Pierrette, if you were incredibly content and happy and wanted nothing more from your life. But you do want something more, which is why you stood up in front of this whole room and expressed a desire to find a relationship. So y- you, you want more, but you're afraid of what a relationship could bring. And my guess is that part of that is in learning to really trust yourself. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that what you're really afraid of is someone coming into your life who you, God forbid, like. [audience laughing] And that [censored] everything up. [audience laughing] Because all of a sudden, it feels like there is an element of your joy that you do not have complete control over. And maybe what's happened in the past is you have been in a situation where you liked someone, and all of a sudden you felt very out of control because you couldn't trust yourself not to keep over-giving in a relationship, not to show up in ways that eventually meant that you got walked over or that your happiness was compromised. And so there's a desire never to return to that.And when we have a desire never to return to that, what we really say is, "I just gotta keep myself away from the, from that temptation because I know if I get too close to it, it's not someone else will mess up my life, I will mess up my life." Because the reality is, and this is the important thing for you to remember, if you trust yourself, you don't need to worry about the impact anyone else is gonna have on your life.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
You don't have to trust anyone else.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
People go, "How do I, how can I learn to trust again?" Don't worry about it. Just trust you. Trust not that someone's never gonna betray you, or they're never gonna come along and start taking too much, or taking advantage of your generosity or they... Trust that the moment someone starts doing that, you can have a boundary, and if that boundary isn't respected, you have the power to walk away.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. [audience applauding]
- MHMatthew Hussey
When you trust yourself, you don't need to worry about someone else coming in and screwing everything up.
- SPSpeaker
The one thing that, um, that I learned in my, through my cancer journey, I'm, I'm recent survivor, is, is that, um, I, I don't... Uh, you know how you said the whole no regret thing? I do have one regret, but one thing that I learned is that to forgive myself for the regret or whatever, was to say, "Well, that's the information I had at that time, and I made the best decision that time." And I know that me, I don't do things impulsively, that I'm very deliberate. I do all the research. So I need to trust myself in the future about what I did in the past. So where I'm at right now, I, I am glad you said that because I just have to have faith that who I am today, that I've found who I am-
- MHMatthew Hussey
You've already successfully protected yourself.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- MHMatthew Hussey
You've already done it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
So the thing w- the fear that someone's gonna come in and they're gonna take... They can't. You already did it. You already achieved it. You're already fine on your own. So you can go back to that any time you want. You just proved that with the life you've been living. Now go out there and make an actual impact, 'cause you didn't create all that safety so that you could never leave the house. You created all of that safety so that you could leave the house, and you could go blow shit up- [audience applauding] -and know that you could always come home if you had to.
- SPSpeaker
I think we've got time for one more question, Paige.
- 57:34 – 1:03:30
What Overgiving Is Really Costing You
- SPSpeaker
My name is Maya Pieta.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Nice to meet you, Maya.
- SPSpeaker
Thank you. It's nice to meet you too. I would like to ask, when you're looking for somebody who can just take you to the next level, I guess in the relationships that I've been in, um, I have, um... Sometimes I feel like I, I love from a place of wanting to make someone else feel better, or bring them up or show them love that maybe they haven't experienced before, when I can see that somebody is hurting.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But giving of my energy to the point where I feel drained and, um, have lost myself, I don't ever wanna compromise like that again. Um, I think I want to be... Well, I know that I wanna be with somebody who can improve, um, my, my life and my situation, and maybe my question is how not to let overgiving turn into something that's too costly.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like of my peace or my safety.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Two things come to mind, Maya. Um, the first is that that overgiving is, uh, something that's meeting a need for you. It's working for you on some level, and it's important to figure out what, what that's doing. It might make you feel safe, 'cause when you find someone who just needs a lot from you, that's not the kind of person that will abandon you. But when you actually go out and meet an equal, that's scary as shit, 'cause that person can leave you. Just like Pia Yvette can leave someone. She's a scary woman. [audience laughing] She can leave. Right? That makes her a force. That makes her m- m- much scarier to date than someone who absolutely needs all of the help in the world. So it might be that for you right now, overgiving makes you feel safe, makes you feel indispensable. It, it, it might be that that's a model for love you've learned, that you only really feel safe in a, in a situation where you're giving more than the other person is, that you're not worthy of being in a situation where someone just loves you for you and not because of everything you do all the time. The second thing I wanna say is that you are... When you go into a situation trying to give like that because it seems nice and it seems like a kind thing to do and someone else needs you, there's another human being in that room that also needs you. When we're in a room with one friend, there are two human beings in that room, and our responsibility is just as much to us, if not more than it is to the friend. 'Cause our job is to take care of ourselves. It's the only job we'll ever have for the rest of our lives. It's the only job we've always had our whole lives. You are your human. Your job, no one else out of the eight billion people on this earth, no one else has the job of taking care of the human that is you. No one. It's your jobSo the next time you find yourself in a situation where you're over-giving, say to yourself, "What are you doing? You had one job. You had one job. Take care of this human." And right now this human is starving for love because you have put her in a situation where she is giving nonstop to somebody else and not getting her needs met. And the truth is the reason that's happening is because your human is scared of being in a situation that is completely different than that. Because it's so... This dynamic that you don't like, that you complain about is also a dynamic that's very comfortable for you because you feel very safe in it. Now the job is to live a little more dangerously and to start making space for the idea that there are relationships out there that will be truly reciprocal. But when you first find one, it's gonna be scary to you, it's gonna be uncomfortable, and you're gonna feel the urge to keep give... Like, even you're gonna find someone healthy and you're gonna try and give all this stuff to them all the time, and it's gonna scare them away because they're gonna be like, "Why are you doing this? I don't... Why? Why? Just be a, be normal. Be a person. Don't... I don't need you to do this." That's what they're gonna be like. And your job is gonna have to be to realize, "Oh, I'm gonna have to put my normal way of getting significance down so that I can create space to be significant in a new way, and ultimately in a much more rewarding way than being in relationships where someone is dependent on me and can never leave because I just do so much for them and they absolutely need me." [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[audience cheering] Guys, give it up for Matthew Hussey.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Thank you, guys. Thank you.
- JSJay Shetty
If you loved this episode, you're going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Make a list of the things that are truly important-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... for you to find in a partner, and then be that list
Episode duration: 1:03:31
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Transcript of episode WBp6OJlI-ac
