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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

Mel Robbins: The ‘Let Them Theory’ (A Life-Changing Hack That 15M People Can’t Stop Talking About)

In this powerful conversation with Jay Shetty, Mel Robbins shares her groundbreaking Let Them Theory - a mindset tool that helps you identify what's in your control and what's not, instantly freeing you from stress and anxiety.

Mel RobbinsguestGreat Minds Jay Shettyhost
Jan 6, 20251h 23mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:47

    Introduction

    1. MR

      Every human being has a hardwired need to be in control of everything. There's three things in your control, Jay: what you think, what you do or don't do, and how you process your emotions. If you embrace this skill, you're gonna be shocked.

    2. JS

      This is by far one of the best self-help books I've ever read.

    3. MR

      Your mind and soul are in for a treat. The queen of grounded, science-backed personal development.

    4. JS

      Mel Robbins.

    5. MR

      [laughs]

    6. JS

      Work has been seen as the number one cause of stress.

    7. MR

      You have a customer that's really rude. You lose a big account. You get passed over for something. As you notice the stress come up, Jay, you're simply going to say, "Let them." If you focus and try to manage things that are never gonna be within your control, it only creates stress, anxiety, and frustration for you.

    8. JS

      Imagine for every thought you had about that person, you had to pay them a dollar. That's how much energy, time, and money is being wasted.

    9. MR

      You have no idea right now how much time and energy is being wasted or drained because of other people's behavior or your expectations about how you wish things would go. This is, I think, my legacy. I think that this is, um, the thing I was supposed to figure out and leave the world.

    10. JS

      [upbeat music] The number one health and wellness podcast.

    11. MR

      Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.

    12. JS

      [laughs] If you're struggling right now with things you can't control, this episode is for you. If you're someone who's struggling at work, and negative people, and toxic culture, this episode's for you. If you're someone who's struggling with your family members and your friends in setting boundaries, this episode's for you. So

  2. 1:47 – 4:40

    What is the “Let Them” Theory

    1. JS

      Mel, where I wanna start is work has been seen as the number one cause of stress, you write about this in the book-

    2. MR

      Mm. Mm-hmm

    3. JS

      ... in people's lives.

    4. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JS

      How can the Let Them Theory help people in the place that causes them the most stress?

    6. MR

      It's an excellent question. So first, let me, no pun intended, let me explain the theory. So in case you haven't bumped into this online, the theory is very simple. It is a mindset tool that instantly helps you identify what's in your control and what's not in your control. The reason why this is important is because any psychologist will tell you that if you focus and try to manage things that are never gonna be within your control, it only creates stress, anxiety, and frustration for you. When you take the context of work, there is so much inside your day-to-day life at work that is irritating, it is stressful, it is annoying, from the endless meetings and no time to get work done, to if you're somebody that is working in a retail store, you're doing shift work, you don't have control over what shifts you get, to feeling like you don't have the chance for promotion. It is just endless. And the way that you're gonna use the Let Them Theory is any time something is happening at work that stresses you out, you have a customer that's really rude, you lose a big account, you get passed over for something, your idea gets dismissed in a work meeting, as you notice the stress come up, Jay, you're simply going to say, "Let them." Let my boss be in a bad mood. Let my colleague take credit. Let the, uh, customer, like, be rude to me. And here's the thing. This sounds almost like you're being a doormat and you're being passive. It's the exact opposite. When you say, "Let them," you're recognizing that the situation right now that has just happened has already happened, and that there is no reason to allow it to stress you out. When you allow your boss's mood to stress you out or make you nervous, you're giving power to your boss that they do not deserve, and so you're gonna say, "Let them." When you allow a customer that is rude or inconsiderate to make you feel bad about yourself, or to make you upset, or to rattle you, you just gave this rude person power over you. When you say, "Let them," something interesting happens. First of all, you detach. Second, you feel almost superior. It's this weird thing, because I don't think this is the same thing as saying, "Let it go." You're a very grounded person, Jay. You strike me as the kind of person that can let anything go.

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. MR

      Me, whenever somebody would say to me, "Mel, I know, I know, it's not fair what just happened at work. You gotta let it go," I'd be like, "But I feel like I lost. I feel like I now have to be defeated. I feel more like a doormat if somebody tells me to let something go."

  3. 4:40 – 6:49

    The Significant Difference Between “Let Them” and “Let Me”

    1. JS

      What's the difference between let it go and let them?

    2. MR

      For me, when I say, "Let them," I get a jolt of superiority, because I'm like, I can see that my boss is kind of a jerk, and I'm just gonna let them be a jerk, and I rise above it, and I feel a little judgy. I mean, if I'm being perfectly honest. I mean, this is why people get this tattooed on their bodies, because when you say the word, "Let them," or you see it on your arm, what happens is you no longer allow a rude colleague or something frustrating at work to derail your day. You say, "Let them," and you rise above it, and you kinda go, "I see what's happening here. I'm gonna allow this without allowing it." But then there's a second part, Jay, and this is the most important part, and it's the part that people do not tattoo on themselves because it's the harder part. And the second part to this theory is saying to yourself, "Let me." Let me remind myself that in life there are always three things I can control. That's where my power is. My power is not in managing my boss, or in trying to, like, deal with some customer that just doesn't want to be in an okay mood and doesn't want to be calmed down. They want to be right. They want to take it out on you, so you're gonna let them. But then you've created this boundary. You rise above. I'm gonna just let you be upset here. I'm not gonna let it impact me. And then you say, "Let me." And what you're reminding yourself of is there's three things in your control, Jay: what you think, next What you do or don't do, and oftentimes not doing something is the more powerful move, and how you process your emotions. Those are the three things that are always in your control. And when you say, "Let me take responsibility right now for how I'm gonna respond to this," and the word responsibility after all is the ability to respond, right?

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. MR

      And so when you say, "Let me," and you remember I can think what I want about this, I can act in response to this, and I can process my emotions and either allow them to rise and fall and stay steady and calm, or, you know, y- you can certainly erupt if you want to.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. MR

      But why would you want to?

    7. JS

      Tell me.

    8. MR

      Because then that means you've

  4. 6:49 – 14:03

    Stop Obsessing Over Things You Can’t Control

    1. MR

      given power to somebody else.

    2. JS

      Why are we so distracted and obsessed with things we can't control? I'm sure we all have a friend or know someone who knows they need to be working on their business-

    3. MR

      Right

    4. JS

      ... but they're talking about the news.

    5. MR

      Right.

    6. JS

      They know they should be writing their book, but they're focused on talking about politics. They know they should be building the next stage in their career or whatever it may be, trying to get that promotion, work towards that next threshold-

    7. MR

      Right

    8. JS

      ... or whatever they're trying to achieve, but they're distracted by talking about all the people, all the things, all the ideas that they can do nothing about. Why are we so addicted to it?

    9. MR

      Well, I think there's two reasons, because your question is about two different things. One is why are we focused on things we can't control, and the other one is sort of like why are we distracted, and they're, they're interconnected. So let's just address the issue of control. Every human being has a hardwired need to be in control of everything, because being in control is what makes you feel safe. So I need to feel in control of my thoughts, my decisions, my environment, my future, and the problem is so do you. But part of the need for control, Jay, extends beyond me because if you're doing something that makes me annoyed or irritated or worried about you, now I'm feeling a little unsafe or worried because of what you're doing, and so now I'm gonna wanna control you so that I feel better. And so it is a fundamental hardwired need inside every human being you know to be in control of yourself. And yet, the second we step across the line and we try to control someone else, whether it's I think you should be healthier, I think you should be more motivated, I wish you wouldn't like leave the Kleenexes when you're blowing your nose on the co- whatever it is that you wish someone else would do. I wish my boss wouldn't talk in every meeting and would give a chance like for us to talk. All of that desire for someone else to change is you attempting to control the uncontrollable. And so I think one of the reasons why we do this is because we're hardwired to do it, and the problem becomes that the second I try to control you, Jay, it's not gonna motivate you to do what I want you to do. It's gonna bump up against your need for your own control, so you're gonna push back against me.

    10. JS

      Absolutely.

    11. MR

      And so you also asked about distraction. I think the reason why we're so distracted is because if you spend so much time and energy allowing the world around you to stress you out and drain your energy, you are now susceptible to being hijacked by meaningless things that are not important to you. And this is one of the biggest discoveries that I've made about using the Let Them Theory and researching it as, has spread around the world, is that the single biggest benefit is that you get time and energy back. You have no idea right now how much time and energy is being wasted or drained because of other people's behavior or your expectations about how you wish things would go. And once you start noticing all of these little moments all day long, it's like a death by a thousand cuts. You wanna know why you're too tired? You wanna know why you're overwhelmed? You wanna know why you're stressed out? You wanna know why you have no time for yourself? It's because of the power you give to other people's opinions, their emotions, their immature behavior. It's the ways in which you are turning people into a problem in your life, and here's the sad fact. The sad fact is other people should be the greatest source of happiness and connection and inspiration. But if you don't truly learn this skill that we're gonna talk about today of focusing on what you can control and letting people be who they are, letting things play out as they're playing out, and then bringing the power back in house and really focusing on how you respond to it, if you embrace this skill, you're gonna be shocked. You're gonna be shocked by how much time you've wasted.

    12. JS

      [laughs]

    13. MR

      I'm not kidding.

    14. JS

      Yeah.

    15. MR

      And you're gonna be shocked, Jay, by the fact that you've allowed stupid things and-

    16. JS

      I agree

    17. MR

      ... people's drama to drain you, and that's why I also think we're so susceptible to distraction, because we've given so much power away all day long. Because here's the truth, like I'll give you an example. When I first discovered this and I started playing around with it, the very first way that I used it after I discovered it was I was standing in line. And we've all been at the grocery store when it's like six people deep and there's one person working.

    18. JS

      Yeah.

    19. MR

      And it's like beep, beep, beep, and you start feeling that wave, right?

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MR

      And immediately the wave of stress takes over because you're now irritated by what's happening. And what just happens when you start reacting to that and you allow that stress wave to start to take over, is that you're giving power to something outside of you. Now, I can't control what's happening right now, so why on earth would I allow it to drain my energy?

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. MR

      Because as it comes up, Jay, what do I then do? I then start talking to myself. "Well, this is ridiculous. Why have they not done an announcement? Like I, I got, I gotta get going here. Why, why are they not bringing a, a, another..." Now I'm starting to believe, Jay, that I can run a supermarket-

    24. JS

      [laughs]

    25. MR

      ... better than the people that are running it.

    26. JS

      Yeah.

    27. MR

      And then you of course turn to the person behind you in your roll, like, "Can you believe this?" And now this is- The interesting part that I really want everybody, I really want the person listening to embrace. In that moment, you just gave away your energy, and you have a choice. When you say, "Let them," you instantly feel a release, and then you say, "Let me decide what I'm gonna do right now." Am I gonna le- I can leave the store. That's one thing I can do. I could stand here and practice being present. That's another thing I could do. I could, because I don't have time at the end of the day and I'm always tired and I'm complaining that I'm lonely, I could actually pick up the phone and call my grandmother. I could text my friend Jay Shetty, because I've been thinking about him. Like, you have so much power, but you're gonna burn through it in that line, and then you're gonna feel your stress activated, and then you're gonna get in the car, and then somebody's gonna pull out in front of you, and then you're gonna, like, be stressed again. And then you're gonna walk into work, and you're gonna be annoyed in some meeting because of what something somebody said, and then that's gonna hit you again. And all day long, because you don't recognize how this stuff is impacting you, that energy inside your body is slowly draining, and this is why you're exhausted. And so simply starting to use it, whether it's at work or it's just in your daily life, to say, "Let them." Wanting people to change is not the problem. How we go about it is. If their behavior is telling you that your needs are not a priority, you have to let them reveal that. You're only attached to it because you've never experienced anything else.

  5. 14:03 – 21:59

    People Only Change if They Want to

    1. JS

      I wanna paint another scenario-

    2. MR

      Yes

    3. JS

      ... for people to really understand the system. Let's say you have a partner, boyfriend, girlfriend, maybe you're married to them.

    4. MR

      Yep.

    5. JS

      And this person always turns up from work a little bit late.

    6. MR

      Uh-huh.

    7. JS

      They don't wash the dishes. You wake up in the morning-

    8. MR

      Mm-hmm

    9. JS

      ... the dishes are always still out there.

    10. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JS

      There's a sense that you've told them this irks you a million times.

    12. MR

      Did my husband ask you to ask me this question, Jay?

    13. JS

      [laughs] He's amazing.

    14. MR

      I know. Chris, you, Chris has your number, so he probably texted you.

    15. JS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chris, uh, yeah, and so I, I, I mean, I'm speaking from so much n- not direct personal experience-

    16. MR

      Yes

    17. JS

      ... but personal experience in so many ways.

    18. MR

      Yes.

    19. JS

      And you're saying this person's not changing. They haven't changed for, like, it's been two, three years.

    20. MR

      No, uh, 'cause this is a fundamental rule, everybody.

    21. JS

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      Number one, you cannot change another human being. It is impossible for you to change somebody else. Now, you can influence them, but you cannot change them. People only change if they feel like it and if they can. And wanting and wishing is a wonderful thing. Wanting and wishing somebody to be cleaner and to pick up a- after themselves, wanting your kids to be more motivated, wanting the people that you love to take better care of themselves and to be healthier or to date somebody that is normal and healthy instead of the losers that treat them like crap, that's a beautiful thing for you to want for other people. And you deserve to do that, and you should do that. Wanting people to change is not the problem. Wanting bigger possibilities for people is not the problem. How we go about it is.

    23. JS

      Mm.

    24. MR

      And so in the scenario that you're talking about, this is a beautiful example, because you have to say, "Let them." You see the dishes in the sink. It makes you upset because you feel disrespected, and it's annoying, and you have higher standards for cleanliness, which means you're probably just gonna do them anyway, and then you're gonna feel like you're really taken, whatever, for granted. But you have to say, "Let them." And one of the reasons why is because, number one, if this is a long-term, committed partnership, learning how to love somebody as they are is a form of love that is deeply important. And if you can't say, "Let them," in that moment, you are going to get frustrated and angry, and then you are going to come to the next part of the Let Them Theory with tremendous intensity and judgment, and that's not gonna motivate change. What it does when you judge somebody or you push against them is it actually creates resistance to change. So you have to say, "Let them," because it allows you to detach from your emotions and detach from judgment, right? It is what it is. I see what's happened. I'm accepting the reality of this. Let them. Then you come to the let me part. Is this something that bothers you? And if it is, remember, you got three things. I can choose what I wanna think about this. And so you could think a good thought. You could think, "Okay, good intention. They were probably super busy this morning, and they meant to do it later." Let them, okay? I'm gonna choose to believe that. You could also then remind yourself, let me remind myself there's something I can do about this, right? And if it's really important, what you need to do about this is have a conversation. And by the way, Chris has had this conversation with me a bazillion times. So if you walk into our bathroom, Chris's bathroom probably looks like your side of the sink, which is, it's like a zen seven-star hotel, Jay. Like, there's not a speck on that man's, like, basin or whatever you call it. If you look at mine, it looks like somebody tipped over a Walgreens aisle on top of that thing.

    25. JS

      [laughs]

    26. MR

      And it drives Chris crazy. But what particularly drives him crazy is when something migrates from my side to his side, right? And so he's asked me, he's asked me to, "Please keep my stuff over there." He has asked me to, "Please flatten cardboard boxes when they come in. Don't, please pack, don't unpack them and then stack them by the garage door as if I'm supposed to do it." And he's asked me and asked me and asked me, and then I forget. Well, he finally sat me down, Jay, and this is the let me part. You have to take responsibility for explaining to somebody what you need and the reason why this is important to you. Because when Chris said to me, "I know you don't intend this, but this is the impact, Mel. When I see the cardboard boxes stacked or I see your hairbrush and 15 products of yours on my countertop-" It actually makes me feel like you think I'm the maid.

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. MR

      And we don't even have a maid. Like, it's just, like, it makes me feel like you think it's my job-

    29. JS

      Mm-hmm

    30. MR

      ... to clean up after you, and that doesn't make me feel loved. Now, when he took the time in a very calm way to drop into his values and communicate what he needed, something interesting happens. If you're in a committed, loving partnership and you're with somebody who wants to do better and cares about you, it taps into their intrinsic motivation to build new skills.

  6. 21:59 – 26:31

    How Do You Let Difficult People Be

    1. JS

      You've just unlocked a whole new meaning of let them for me.

    2. MR

      How so?

    3. JS

      I've always understood let them when I've heard you speak about it, when I read the book, this idea of let them be who they are.

    4. MR

      Right.

    5. JS

      Let them act the way they wanna act.

    6. MR

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      Let them say and do whatever they want to do. I have to let them.

    8. MR

      Yeah, yeah.

    9. JS

      I have to keep that distance. What you just unlocked for me, which I really want, uh, you know, everyone to grapple with because I think it's so powerful, is this idea of let them also show you who they are.

    10. MR

      Yes.

    11. JS

      And if they're showing you who they are, let them be that person. Don't make them the person you imagine them to be, the one you want them to be-

    12. MR

      Yes

    13. JS

      ... the one that you're wishing and waiting and hoping for them to be.

    14. MR

      Yes.

    15. JS

      They are that person.

    16. MR

      Yes.

    17. JS

      Let them be... That is... Oh, my gosh, my mind is literally blown because that is so powerful. They c-

    18. MR

      But you still have power, Jay.

    19. JS

      Yes, yes.

    20. MR

      Now, here's the most important thing, everybody. This is the most important thing. This is the epiphany that I had, too.

    21. JS

      Mm.

    22. MR

      Like, holy cow, I still get to choose. I still get to choose. I get to choose how much time and energy I pour into this, whether it's this issue or it's this topic or it's this person.

    23. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MR

      And here's how you know if you can actually love somebody for who they are and who they're not. Can you end your complaining and bitching about it? Because if you can't do that, then this is something you're holding onto and you're holding over the other person.

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MR

      And if they're never gonna change, you're gonna have a problem.

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MR

      Because the only thing that's gonna make the relationship better is either them hearing you and caring enough and being able to adjust or you being the one to adjust, because it's your complaining about it that is creating the fr- the friction and the resentment. And this is not only with romantic relationships. Like, when I think about the broader applications of this for family, there are very challenging people in my extended family, just like everybody's family, right? And so there's always one person in your life that you wish there just wasn't drama with. You wish they didn't have a challenging demeanor or personality. The Let Them Theory has fundamentally, profoundly changed my relationship also with people that have been difficult. Because when I say let them, like, let's say you're talking... You're, you... We're talking about somebody who's very narcissistic or dramatic or victim or they're al- it's always about them, and very draining person to be around Well, part of the reason why they're draining is because you brace-

    29. JS

      Mm

    30. MR

      ... and you get ready for it, and you allow their energy to impact you. And I always find it funny, Jay, that especially in families and at work, we allow the most challenging person to have the biggest impact on the whole system. So if you have one person that's narcissistic in their personality style, or that is very, very dramatic and immature in their personality style, they're the one, if you imagine a spider web, right? I think about a, a system of relationships like a spider web, and you're out in the morning, the dew's on it. When you have a challenging person, because we all tiptoe around this person, that person's energy is like tap, tap, tap, and shakes all the dew off.

  7. 26:31 – 35:10

    Learn to Value Your Time and Energy

    1. JS

      I love that, and I feel like when you start looking at your energy and time-

    2. MR

      Mm-hmm

    3. JS

      ... if you thought about it like money-

    4. MR

      Mm

    5. JS

      ... and this idea that, imagine for every thought you had about that person, you had to pay them a dollar, and you think about how many dollars. If you now started to count the amount of thoughts you were having about that person, about that situation, about what they said, about what they said to so-and-so, what they thought about you, and you had to pay a dollar for every thought you had about them, that's how much energy, time, and money is being wasted.

    6. MR

      Yes.

    7. JS

      And we're not realizing where else it could be invested-

    8. MR

      Correct

    9. JS

      ... and put in. But I think you hit the nail on the head there. The reason is we feel so attached that we don't feel we can actually leave.

    10. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JS

      As Thich Nhat Hanh would say, we would rather live in the familiar pain-

    12. MR

      Right

    13. JS

      ... than the unfamiliar pain.

    14. MR

      Right.

    15. JS

      At least we know what we're gonna get with this person.

    16. MR

      Yep.

    17. JS

      And there's a part of us that gets attached to that, even subconsciously.

    18. MR

      Well, here's the thing, though, Jay, because I think it's a really important point that you're bringing up, but here's what I think you're gonna discover. I think you're only attached to it because you don't value your time and energy.

    19. JS

      For sure.

    20. MR

      You're only attached to it because you've never experienced anything else.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MR

      And the reason why you're used to it is because in the relationship dynamic, you're up in your head, usually in a relationship explaining away behavior instead of actually seeing it with clear eyes-

    23. JS

      Mm-hmm

    24. MR

      ... and detaching from it, and that's the other reason, and I know you knew this instantly, that The Let Them Theory and saying, "Let them and let me," one of the reasons why it's so powerful and I'm so excited is I feel literally like I am surrounded by ancestors, because this is a modern application of ancient philosophy, spiritual guidance, stoicism, detachment theory that you can then apply in any moment in any relationship. And what I also love about this, Jay, is that I think it allows you to truly see people perhaps for the first time-

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm

    26. MR

      ... and to give them the space to be who they are.

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MR

      And from that space, what's amazing is you can let people, for example, a lot of us are very triggered and motivated when somebody's disappointed, or when some... or we think that somebody's gonna, like, you know, really be let down by us. And I had this huge breakthrough because I used to feel really guilty, either by how much I work or the fact that, uh, Chris and I raised our kids on the East Coast and my parents are in the Midwest, and, you know, I love my parents and I wish we all lived together, but here's the thing. They're not moving to me, and I'm not moving to them.

    29. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MR

      We gotta let them, right?

  8. 35:10 – 42:12

    Two Things that Truly Define Love

    1. JS

      when me and Radhi actually got married and we-

    2. MR

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... moved to America, and Radhi will say this herself, that at that time in her life, her parents had made a lot of big decisions for her.

    4. MR

      Mm.

    5. JS

      And she was following decisions that they were making or opportunities that they were putting forward, and all of that was with good intention. And then when we got married, she'd start to ask me for my advice or my insight. This would be anything from what plates we should buy for our apartment through to, like, what kinda curtains we wanted, right?

    6. MR

      Right, right.

    7. JS

      We're talking about really small, everyday things. And I remember I would always say to her, "Well, what do you think?" And she'd always say, "No, no, no. You just tell me." And I'd be like, "No, but what do you think?" And in the start, it would really frustrate her, but now she looks back and she goes, that question helped her so much because it helped her find her own identity-

    8. MR

      Mm

    9. JS

      ... her own strength, her own tastes, her own dislikes, and now she's a whole human with opinions and, and it's so fascinating to watch that. And it was because I almost had this forevisioning or this thought that even if I make my life easier by just telling her my tastes and dislikes and likes-

    10. MR

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... it's only gonna be easy in the short term because 10 years from now, she's gonna think she became the person I wanted her to be and never became the person she could be.

    12. MR

      Right.

    13. JS

      And I could see that, and so I set it up, and I was like, "No, you just tell me." And till this day, I always practice. I'm like, "I think you look beautiful, but I want you to wear what you want to wear." It, it shouldn't be about what I think you look better in or worse in or... That, that just shouldn't be the case. And it's so interesting how we think love is over-caring.

    14. MR

      Right.

    15. JS

      But actually, over-caring is over-enabling that person and overwhelming that person.

    16. MR

      Yes, and it's control.

    17. JS

      It's control.

    18. MR

      You're not... Like, if you think about- What love really is, and for me, love is two things. It's consideration, right? It's having someone in mind. If you pour in oat milk instead of the cow milk because that's what they like, that's an act of love. It's also admiration, and admiration is the ability to see something in somebody that you deeply admire.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. MR

      I want to go back to something that you said, though-

    21. JS

      Please

    22. MR

      ... because it was genius, and it had me think about the idea of the power of your time and energy. And you were talking about imagine if, like, your time and your energy had dollars associated with it.

    23. JS

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    24. MR

      Because I don't think we value it.

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MR

      And I started to think about one of the biggest obstacles, because what's ultimately happening when you start to use let them and let me is you're gonna see that you've turned other people into a major problem, and you have turned them into a problem in four ways. First of all, you allow them to stress you out, but you're not gonna do that anymore 'cause you're gonna let them be. But the second way that you've made them a major problem in your life is that you give so much weight to other people's opinions. And in the example you were just talking about, what was happening is by asking you, "What do you think?" Roddy was doing what we all do. But most of us do it subconsciously, and we don't even realize it, which is before we even ask ourselves what feels right for us, we stop and consider what we think somebody's gonna think. And you have that, like, really brilliant thing that I've heard you say a bazillion times that I love.

    27. JS

      [laughs]

    28. MR

      "It's not what you think you think it think," and I'm like, "Wait, what, what?"

    29. JS

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      But, but so I want to play this out because this is so important, was a huge thing for me. If you open up your favorite social media platform, we've all had the experience where you go and you pick a photo, and you then put it up, and you're like, "Okay, should I put a filter on this?" And you start to then question, "Is this the right photo?" And then you go back to your photo roll, and then you start working on the caption. "Should I put an emoji? Is this too much? Should I do this?" And then you are worried. Why? Because you're actually thinking about what other people are going to think or do in response to what you're posting.

  9. 42:12 – 46:34

    Let People Gossip About It

    1. JS

      of the beautiful Charles Horton Cooley quote, and he wrote this in 1890. And he said, "The challenge today is I'm not what I think I am. I'm not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am."

    2. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JS

      Which means we live in a perception of a perception of ourselves, so if I think Mel thinks I'm not smart, then I don't think I'm smart.

    4. MR

      Right.

    5. JS

      So it's not even reality. It's not even-

    6. MR

      Right

    7. JS

      ... factually proven or checked or tested.

    8. MR

      Right.

    9. JS

      By the way, everything in The Let Them Theory, this book is literally every thought, those 70,000 thoughts, that's what you're addressing in this book. [laughs]

    10. MR

      Yes.

    11. JS

      Because these-

    12. MR

      And let them, two words-

    13. JS

      Yeah

    14. MR

      ... gets rid of this fear.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      It literally does.

    17. JS

      Because I was talking, I've talked to at least three friends this week, and all of them are concerned by either, "Hey, Jay, I'm thinking about posting a video on social media. I'm scared of what people will think." So that's for their professional-

    18. MR

      Right

    19. JS

      ... or their passion.

    20. MR

      Right.

    21. JS

      I've got another friend who's worried that a lot of our other friends are talking about him negatively-

    22. MR

      Okay

    23. JS

      ... because he's recently fallen out with them.

    24. MR

      Okay.

    25. JS

      And so he's worried, like, "What are they saying? They're all talking to each other. What, what rumors are they spreading about me? Like, maybe it's not true." And the thing that they're holding onto is they just can't let, they can't let them. And it's becau-

    26. MR

      No, but they can.

    27. JS

      Yeah, but-

    28. MR

      See, I don't think they have the tool.

    29. JS

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      See, here's the thing. If you're worried that people are gossiping about you, let them. Let them gossip about you. Here's why. You can't control it.

  10. 46:34 – 58:22

    Don’t Expect Too Much From Others

    1. JS

      think we expect too much from people?

    2. MR

      I do. I think everybody's really busy, and life is very overwhelming, and you have no idea what's going on in other people's lives. And we've gotten to a point in today's world where if I text you, I expect Jay to respond, and if Jay doesn't respond, then I make it mean something about Jay or me. And I hate that, because it doesn't give people grace. We're constantly expecting people to show up a certain way and then judging them when they don't instead of stopping to consider that other people have lives and other people have a lot of things going on. And sometimes when people go silent on you, it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with a crazy busy period in life, or it has to do with the fact that something's going on with their family, and they're so drained at the end of the day that the last thing they wanna do is talk to anybody. And so I do think we expect too much, because relationships feel very, like, transactional. You do this for me, I do this for you. I text you, you better text me back. Now, there are rules in terms of just being courteous to people and being gracious to people, but I'm deeply concerned, Jay, about the rise of both estrangement. I'm concerned about the amount of posts that go viral about, you know, "I got my life better 'cause I cut all the toxic peopout- people out." And I stop and think always, "Well, did you have a conversation about what was bothering you?" Because if you just ghost other people or you use the silent treatment, that's actually punishing somebody, and that's ins- extremely immature, actually. It means you can't handle your own emotions, which is why you don't have a hard conversation about what you need or how the, someone's behavior is impacting you. And if you haven't had that, it's a very immature move to just cut somebody off.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. MR

      And so I get very worried about the labeling of people as toxic and about the ease at which people seem to just drop people.

    5. JS

      Yeah.

    6. MR

      And what I really love about the Let Them Theory is that it opens up the window to a lot more compassion, because we're quick to think that if somebody hasn't texted you back, or you've texted, texted somebody a couple times and they haven't responded, that you did something bad. And it's perfectly fine to be like, "Did I do something? You know, I, I, I noticed you haven't responded. Is everything okay?" If they don't respond then, then something's probably wrong-

    7. JS

      Mm

    8. MR

      ... either with them or with you, and you get to decide what you're gonna do next But I am worried about the combination of people being isolated, of people spending way too much time on their phones instead of with each other, and that we've gotten very transactional with one another, and it's easy to forget that people have a lot going on, and they're not thinking about you as much as you're thinking about them. And just because you have time to text them doesn't mean they have time right now to text you back. Mm. And I guarantee you, when they saw your text, they probably thought, "Oh my God, I lo- you know, I, I gotta c-" And then something came up. Yeah. And so I do worry about it, Jay. I do think we have too much of an expectation of something in return. Yeah. And when you start to use this theory, what you're also gonna notice is this. When you start to say let them, you will notice that maybe you're the sibling that reaches out more. Mm-hmm. And it might bother you because when you say let them, and you keep reaching out and they don't reach out, or you have a group of friends and you notice that when you stop reaching out or making the plans, that you're not included in theirs, and that hurts. Yeah. The thing I used to do when that happened is I would make it about me. I would make it, like, some deficiency in me. And what I've learned using the Let Them Theory, and really just saying, "Let them," which detaches from the hurt, it detaches from the judgment. It reminds you that adults are allowed to live their lives. Mm-hmm. Adults are allowed to come and go in friendship. They're allowed to prioritize certain people at certain times. They're allowed to have busy periods at work. They're allowed to fall in and out of communication. And the more you let people live their lives, the better your life gets and the more compassionate of a human being you become. And the more I've started to recognize, oh, wait, like, my social life is my responsibility. If I have a group of friends where if I make the plans, everybody's included, but if I sit back, I'm never invited- Yeah ... then now I gotta examine, am I investing in the right group of friends? Or you might also wake up and realize, well, maybe I just like really, like, introverted people, but I'm the party planner. Mm-hmm. And that's my role in life. Mm-hmm. And instead of you being transactional, you actually recognize the gift that it is to people. Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah. And you know, it, it sucks that maybe your siblings get together because they live closer and they don't include you, and it does hurt, and feeling a little bit of pain like that means your mind and body is working properly. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. It's a sign that you're mentally well. Yeah. It doesn't mean there's a sign that there's anything wrong with you. Mm-hmm. And so when you can say let them, and then you say let me, let me decide what I wanna do about this, you can have the conversation. Yeah. And you might realize that they just click, and you don't have as close of a relationship. Mm-hmm. But then you get to decide how you value family. Mm-hmm. And if you're gonna bring different energy or if you're gonna try a little bit harder because, again, you get to choose. Yeah. And when you realize how much power you have, you see that through the way you think about it or you respond to it, you actually can shift anything for the better. For sure. And I'm really excited about this. I wrote this, um, actually with my daughter, who's 25, and it was an amazing experience because she was bringing a much different perspective. And when we wrote the section about how you use the Let Them Theory with love, she started researching the breakup section because the fact about love is people choose who and how they love, and sometimes they won't choose you. But you also get to choose who and how you love and how you're gonna create it, and people forget that. And so we get to the part about when a relationship is ending, and her boyfriend of two years breaks up with her, and she's like- While you're writing the book ... yes. Like, "This is horse-- Like, just rip this up. I have to let him walk out the door. I have to let him leave, but this is bullshit," like, just like... And it was this unbelievable experience because when somebody that you love is grieving or going through heartbreak or struggling, all... You would jump in front of a car to take their pain away. And the Let Them Theory and the experience of this book taught me that the best thing I could do was to let her grieve, to let her be heartbroken, to let her go through her process. You know, I think about it this way, like arm around somebody. You're not blocking and tackling. You've got your arm around somebody, but if she's on the floor sobbing, let her because she needs to. You know, if we need to remove the photos from the family thing, 'cause this was a two-year-long relationship, because that is actually a huge recommendation that I make in this book, that you've got to follow a 30-day rule- Mm ... of zero contact, zero photos, zero videos because you're not just letting them leave. You have to unlearn the patterns of your life- Yes ... that were with them. Yeah. It's, it's a withdrawal like anything else. It's a grief. Yes. Yeah. And any sign of that person actually triggers the old patterns in your nervous system, and it delays your ability to move through it. Absolutely. And it's impossible when you're in it to just let them move on because every part of your wiring and programming, you're gonna wanna check their location. You're gonna wanna listen to the voice memos. You're gonna want to saturate yourself because the life that you wanted is over, and you're either gonna trap yourself in a life that you're no longer in by watching their life play out from afar, and you're gonna keep retriggering these patterns in your nervous system- Because you're gonna keep this person in your life even though they walked out the door, which is why you have to let them

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. MR

      And then you've gotta let me do the hard part, which is I get to choose how I'm gonna move through this. And the research is also really empowering. It gets better for majority of people, 71% of the people start to feel better by 11 weeks.

    11. JS

      That's the, that's the number, 11 weeks.

    12. MR

      11 weeks. And you may feel better in 11 days.

    13. JS

      What happens at 11 weeks?

    14. MR

      What happens at 11 weeks if you're not cyberstalking somebody is that you've actually allowed your body to break the old patterns.

    15. JS

      Right.

    16. MR

      See, the reason why when you're going through a heartbreak, and, uh, heartbreak and breakups are just like death. That's what they are.

    17. JS

      For sure.

    18. MR

      Because you're grieving what's no longer there.

    19. JS

      The life you had-

    20. MR

      Yes

    21. JS

      ... the life you could have had.

    22. MR

      Yes. And aside from the 30-day rule, which is remove, like do not look at voice memos, locations, social, nothing. No photos, because it triggers everything to stay alive in you. But during those 30 days, what's gonna happen is every time you wake up, you're gonna feel them there because your body remembers. That doesn't mean that's a sign you should get back together.

    23. JS

      Yeah.

    24. MR

      That's actually a sign that you're unlearning something. Let those memories come up. Let your nervous system process this. Every time you have news in your life, you're gonna wanna reach out to them. Why? Because that was the pattern. That doesn't mean you should.

    25. JS

      Yeah.

    26. MR

      So you've gotta do the let them leave and let me remind myself I'm going through this process. And every day that you do that, you're actually unlearning these patterns, and by the time you get to about 30 days, you feel less intoxicated. Another huge recommendation is do something in your bedroom, like paint a wall, move the bed, do something, 'cause you spent a lot of time there, so walking back into it is like a graveyard of your old life, and it can be very triggering. And so she did that. And the 11-week mark is important because what's happening is you're now starting to create new patterns. As you've let them leave, you're now letting me move on. You're letting me take the actions that show me that my life is moving forward. And my therapist, Anne, Anne Davin, who's the smartest woman I've, human being I've ever met, she said, "You know, Mel, the, the thing for Sawyer to ask herself is, is if she knew that the love of her life were literally just a couple months away, what would you do-

    27. JS

      Mm

    28. MR

      ... right now-

    29. JS

      Mm

    30. MR

      ... with this period of time?" And when you think about it that way, because again, as long as you're holding on to somebody who already left, you actually are not open to meeting anybody else.

  11. 58:22 – 1:01:12

    You Aren’t Unlovable, Let Them

    1. JS

      that idea of what would you look like, what would you be thinking-

    2. MR

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... how would you behave if the love of your life was two months away?

    4. MR

      Yeah, or two years a-

    5. JS

      Two years away

    6. MR

      ... or a year away, or whatever.

    7. JS

      Year, whatever it is, yeah.

    8. MR

      You see, because we think, because when somebody leaves that you love, you think you're unlovable. You actually think you're never gonna find it again.

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MR

      You hate yourself. That's why most of the advice about this is complete bullshit. Go love yourself? How the hell am I gonna go love myself when the person I love more than anything just left me?

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MR

      I hate myself, I despise myself, I am terrified-

    13. JS

      I messed it up

    14. MR

      ... of the day that they're gonna meet somebody.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      I'm never gonna find that again. I'm never gonna have sex like that again. I'm n- Like, you hate yourself. And so telling somebody to just go on a revenge diet or you gotta love yourself, it's horrible. Instead, I want you to face reality. They left. Let them. And then let me grieve. And follow my therapist Anne Davin's advice. You have to do a 30-day detox, and if you are somebody that's been holding on to somebody that left a year ago, I guarantee you you have not gone 30 days without listening to a voice memo or looking at a photo. You are keeping them alive, which is keeping you trapped in something that's dead. And your inability to let them go and let them leave and then let me accept reality and start moving forward and let me believe that the person that I am meant to meet, they are in the future. They're not in my past. And by the way, even if you kind of hold out secretly hope, it might be the person from the past. It might be, but they're not the version from back there.

    17. JS

      And neither are you.

    18. MR

      And neither are you. And so you have to, again, come back to where the power is. It's not in getting them back. It's not in making them jealous, because if you focus on making that person jealous or wah, blah, blah, where are you putting your power?

    19. JS

      Them.

    20. MR

      And something you can't control.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MR

      You have to put your power here, and the reason why I love the 30-day rule and the 11-week mark is because it's the truth. This is gonna suck. The only way to get over someone and to go through heartbreak is to go through it. There's no avoiding it. There's only delaying it.

    23. JS

      And we delay it.

    24. MR

      Mm-hmm, because we don't wanna accept people as they are.

    25. JS

      Yeah.

    26. MR

      When somebody breaks up and leaves or cheats on you, they have just revealed who they are.

    27. JS

      For sure.

    28. MR

      And your inability to accept it, instead of explaining it away and living in a fantasy up here, that's what's keeping you from having and creating the love you actually deserve and want in your life.

    29. JS

      I was talking to a friend

  12. 1:01:12 – 1:04:17

    Let Them Lie to You, It’s Their Truth

    1. JS

      recently, and this, everything you're saying is just so true, and it's, it's resonating so strongly to me. I was talking to a friend recently, and she was saying to me, "I wish my friend would just be honest with me. I wish this person who's just screwed me over, just let me down, would just be honest with me rather than pretending to be my friend."

    2. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JS

      And I said to them, "They are being honest with you." Them lying is showing you their truth. That's how much they value you. Them pretending to be your friend is their truth.

    4. MR

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      You don't want the truth, actually. You want them to lie to you, [laughs] and you want them to be someone else. You want them to become the honest person.

    6. MR

      Right.

    7. JS

      But they're showing you that they're not an honest person. That is the truth.

    8. MR

      It's true, and here's the other thing. Why are you pretending to be this person's friend-

    9. JS

      Yeah

    10. MR

      ... and not bringing it up?

    11. JS

      Exactly.

    12. MR

      Why is it on them-

    13. JS

      Yeah

    14. MR

      ... to tell you the truth?

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      Let them lie to you, and then come to the let me part.

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. MR

      If, aren't you pretending that you're their friend if you haven't brought this up?

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MR

      And you're actually holding that in your head, right?

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MR

      There are so many applications of this, Jay.

    23. JS

      So many, so many.

    24. MR

      It's just incredible, and the thing that I'm really, really excited about is that, you know, the other massive thing that I think this is gonna help people with is that one other way that you make people a massive problem is that you see somebody else's success or happiness or the things that they achieve in their life as somehow robbing you-

    25. JS

      Ugh

    26. MR

      ... of yours.

    27. JS

      Yeah.

    28. MR

      And the thing about life is that you're never playing against people. You play with them, and somebody else's success, happiness, love, like the things that they achieve, it's in limitless supply.

    29. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MR

      And when you wrap your brain around the fact that happiness, love, money, like all of it, limitless supply. So other people can't block your way. They actually lead the way.

  13. 1:04:17 – 1:12:35

    Why is Adult Friendship Difficult?

    1. JS

      Mel, why is it so hard to make friends as we get older?

    2. MR

      There is a massive shift that happens in adult friendship when you hit 20 that nobody sees coming. The rules of friendship completely change when your 20s hit, and I'm gonna explain the rules when you're little, and then we're gonna talk about the rules of adult friendship. So when you're little, your entire life is organized around friendship and making it possible 'cause you're with people your age all the time in class and sports.

    3. JS

      So true.

    4. MR

      You move in groups 'cause you're on teams and you're in neighborhoods, and you're always together. You also celebrate the same milestones. You're hitting the same birthdays. You're all talking about the next level of school or the, this thing this summer. You're watching the same movies 'cause you're all the same age, and so there's so much synergy and relevance, and the conditions to spend a ton of time together are there. Then you get to university, and you spend even more time together. And what happens when you hit your 20s, right, is that it moves from this big group sport where you just kind of expect to be around your friends all the time. You expect the group to get invited because that's what's always happened. You expect to see them all the time 'cause you do always see them all the time. But then your 20s hit, the rules change, and what I call the great scattering happens. Everybody moves in different directions, and friendship goes from group sport to individual sport. You can no longer expect friendship. You are no longer part of a group that is expected to be invited everywhere because everybody scatters, and suddenly everybody's on different timelines. You're in different cities. You're moving in different directions. So there's no way to locate yourself inside your friend group, and the only thing that's keeping you together from your friends from when you were little is a text chain that starts to go quieter and quieter and quieter as people start to focus on the people in front of them.

    5. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MR

      And that brings me to two major shifts that I want you to embrace using the Let Them Theory. Number one, you can no longer expect friendship. You have to take a way more flexible approach and a more proactive approach. You gotta let people come and go.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MR

      Super important, and then you gotta let me take the actions to create the friendships. I gotta go first. I gotta be the one planning. I gotta seek out new people. But there are three pillars of adult friendship based on research that are also gonna help you understand that when people come and go in your life, 99% of the time it's not personal, and you actually haven't lost them as a friend.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. MR

      One of the three pillars is missing. So the three things that need to be required to have a friendship happen are the same three things that were around all the time when you were a kid. Number one, proximity. Proximity matters tremendously. Proximity means who are you actually physically next to? In fact, they've done research, Jay. If you and I were in a dorm and we lived across the hall, I don't, I don't remember the percentages exactly, but it's like 90% chance we're gonna be friends.

    11. JS

      Interesting.

    12. MR

      The poor person at the end of the hallway, 10% chance that we're gonna be friends with them because of proximity. Even a matter of 50 feet makes a difference. And so when you were little, you were in proximity to people your age all the time.

    13. JS

      All day.

    14. MR

      Exactly. The research also shows that to have, as an adult, a kind of casual friend, you need to spend approximately 70 hours with somebody. To have a close friend, 200 hours

    15. JS

      Mm-hmm

    16. MR

      So when you're an adult, that creates a big problem, because who are you spending all your time with once you're 20? The American Time Study shows that it's with people you work with. So why aren't we best friends with people at work? Because you have proximity, and you're spending a lot of time together, but here's the thing, timing

    17. JS

      Hmm

    18. MR

      When you were little, you were in the same timing of life with everybody

    19. JS

      Yeah

    20. MR

      When you hit your 20s and it's now individual, everybody's on different timelines. Some of your friends are getting married, some are going to graduate school, some are now pursuing jobs. Other people are moving out of the city, into the city. Everybody's timing is now different, and this also explains why you're almost never best friends with people at work, because the timing is off. You're sitting next to people that are in very different times of their life. You may like them a lot, and you may be friends, but you never spend time outside of work because they're at home with their family and you're going out with your buddies your age on the weekends. And then that brings me to the third thing that needs to be present for a friendship to truly click, and that's energy

    21. JS

      Hmm

    22. MR

      And the thing about energy is it changes, and you can have fantastic energy with somebody, and then if you decide you're not drinking anymore, the energy's off

    23. JS

      Yeah

    24. MR

      If you decide to get really focused on fitness, the energy's off. If you have very different political beliefs, the energy's off. It's not personal

    25. JS

      Hmm

    26. MR

      It's one of these three pillars, and it has helped me so profoundly, Jay, to realize that people come and go, and it's a beautiful thing, and you should let them

    27. JS

      Hmm

    28. MR

      And you should really, if you have a friendship that starts to dissipate, right? Ask yourself, before you blame them or you blame you, are any one of these three pillars missing? Are we not near each other anymore? Is the timing of our lives off? Is there just something about the energy that hasn't clicked? Because you can't force those things, but what I've found is that when you recognize that those are really important factors to your connection to someone else, that if a friendship starts to fade, for me, it's so easy to say, "Let them," and I don't wish anybody bad. I literally wish people well, because the other thing that I've learned, and, you know, being 56, I've had a lot of friends come and go in different phases of my life, that you would be startled by how many people from your past that you no longer, quote, "consider friends" 'cause you haven't seen them in a very long time or things just got weird, if you actually called them, they'd pick up the phone

    29. JS

      They would

    30. MR

      If you texted them, the research shows that when you get a surprise text from somebody that you haven't heard from in a long time, the amount of joy that you feel. And so I want you to consider, if you're very lonely right now, that there's actually probably hundreds of people from your past that still consider you a friend

  14. 1:12:35 – 1:23:56

    The Hardest Way to Practice the “Let Them” Theory

    1. JS

      that's, in your deep vicinity of people that you're close with, the hardest way you've had to practice the Let Them Theory?

    2. MR

      Yes. The hardest way is when you recognize the potential in somebody, and you see them struggling, and when you recognize that somebody that you love deeply is in pain. When you're saying, "Let them," you're not abandoning somebody. You're actually recognizing their ability to meet these difficult moments in their life with you by their side. And I think when I think about supporting versus enabling, because the more you kinda step in and rescue people from their feelings or from the consequences of their decisions or their inaction, the more people continue to drown in their problems. I really believe that

    3. JS

      I do too. I really believe that

    4. MR

      And it's a very, very difficult balance because you're gonna hit your frustration and rock bottom and worry with somebody before they do. And somebody said something in the addiction community. I can't remember who said this, but it just is so true that somebody only gets sober when getting drunk is harder Than facing the thing that they don't want to face Mm-hmm And the same is true with anything. Like, really motivating yourself to get in better shape, recognizing that you have a pattern of dating people that are emotionally abusive, and taking a break and really digging deep into the issue that keeps coming up for you, that's really hard. Mm-hmm. That's why we avoid it [laughs] . Yeah. And so when you see somebody that you know is capable or who deserves better, wanting that for them is a form of loving them. I w- I, like, you should want the people in your life that you care about to be doing better, and you... Ha- I hate seeing somebody with so much potential squandering it. Mm-hmm. But again, I'm gonna come back to something that I learned from Dr. Stuart Ablon at Mass General Hospital. People do well when they can, and I want you to start to assume that if somebody in your life is not doing well, or if they're going through a challenge, there is a skill that's missing, or there is emotion that needs to be processed, or there is pain that needs to be felt before they can galvanize the ability to do the very difficult work to change. And in the case of watching my daughter go through this heartbreak, I mean, I literally found myself, Jay, wanting to text, you know, her boyfriend and her boyfriend's mother. Like, you know, "Hey, maybe we can..." And like, just 'cause I wanna fix it. But when you step in and fix it, you literally demean someone else because I do know that she has the ability to move through this. And so the way that I love thinking about support is this way. The next time you have somebody in your life who is truly struggling, whether it's in school or in relationships or with an addiction, I want you to think, "How can I create an environment that supports their healing?" H- Not, not stepping in and doing it. It's rarely an issue of will. Like, it's not willpower for people or the desire. It's actually more about skill- Mm-hmm ... and the ability and need to process things and do it on their own timeline. Mm-hmm. Right? So how can you create an environment for that to happen? And for me, it meant removing any imagery. It meant letting her stay up in her bedroom, and every once in a while, knocking on the door and being like, "Do you need anything?" And allowing her to be in her pajamas for four days and be in a depressive state because guess what? Being in a depressive state and falling on the floor and crying, it's a sign she's mentally well. Mm. That's what you do. It's a sign- It's natural ... that you're okay. Mm. Yes. It would be scary if she wasn't feeling anything. Mm-hmm. And then when you're ready, you kinda put your arm around people. And so how can you do this? Like, when I, when I-- When she was born, actually, Sawyer, um, I had severe postpartum depression, Jay. I had a very traumatic delivery, lost a lot of blood, and I just was so out of it that they put me on these drugs that turned me into a zombie. I couldn't breastfeed her. I wasn't allowed to be alone with her. I missed the first three and a half months of her life, and nobody asked me if I needed help. They showed up and created an environment where I could get better. I had my parents drive out and just stay, and they just did laundry, and they cleaned, and they did what needed to be done. And people who are struggling, they don't even know what they need, and so don't ask somebody what you can do. Find something you can do. Show up with a meal. Walk into your brother's bedroom and pull open the curtains in the morning when he's struggling with depression so the sunlight comes in. Create a playlist for somebody. Pick 'em up. Like, don't say, "You wanna meet at yoga?" Say, "Here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna come over on Saturday and pick you up, and we're gonna go to that yoga class," or, "I'm gonna come over on Sunday, and I'm gonna watch the kids and the dog, so you can go to the park and read a book for two hours." That's how you create an environment for someone else to get better. And the other way that you do it is instead of judging, you're gonna let them be who they are. You're gonna let them struggle, and then you're going to use this technique that's incredibly effective. I labeled it the ABC- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... so that I could remember it. Mm-hmm. First, you're gonna apologize. So let's talk about, like, this is an issue I had with our son. He didn't seem motivated, so I would constantly be like, "Why aren't you motivated? Why don't you study hard? Why are you doing this?" It didn't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. No. And so I finally, A, you're gonna apologize. "I'm sorry I'm pressuring you. I'm sorry I'm questioning you." And then, A, you're gonna ask an open-ended question. "How do you feel about this issue?" And it doesn't matter what they say because you're probably asking for the first time how they actually feel about the issue. Mm-hmm. And then you're gonna ask a really important question. You're gonna ask, "Well, what would you like to do about it, if anything?" And their answers don't matter because what you're doing by apologizing is you're removing the pressure that you're bringing. And now by asking these questions, and I like to do this in a car, Jay, because they're trapped- [laughs] ... and because you're both looking ahead, so it's not as- Yes ... confrontational, and there's something in the science around forward ambulation and the movement that actually opens up your thinking. And then you ask, you know, "What do you wanna do about it, if anything?" And what happens is you're now revealing this tension because people that are stuck know it. People that are struggling know it. People who are failing at school know it. Nobody wants to fail. It's not like people are trying to be depressed. It's not like people are trying to be very unhealthy. People know when they're letting themselves go. You don't need to remind them. But have you ever asked them, "What would you like to do about this, if anything?" What happens in that question, whether they answered or not, is that friction between what they know to be true about what they desire and where they actually are rises up. That is the organizing intrinsic motivation that somebody needs to want to do better.

    5. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MR

      And then you gotta do B, back off.

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. MR

      That's the hard part. Let 'em, let 'em.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. MR

      Let 'em, let 'em.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. MR

      Let me shut up. You know?

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. MR

      Let 'em, let 'em. Let me not roll my eyes. Let me... And people need space to have it be their idea, and I'll give you a quick example. I used to be the kind of person that would eat-- like, that would eat lunch and work on my computer. I'm like tapping on my computer, shoving a sandwich down my throat, right? And there would be this colleague that would stand up and go for a walk most days, and every time she came back, she'd have a smile on her face, and she'd take her earbuds off, and she'd then get back to work. And this would go on for weeks. And then finally one day, Jay, I look up outside, and it's a nice day, and I think, "I think I'm gonna go for a walk." Now, here's the interesting thing. I didn't credit her. I thought it was my idea. Her example influenced my desire to do it. The people that you are close to need enough distance from you, this is why you have to back off, for that friction-

    15. JS

      Yeah

    16. MR

      ... and that stirring to sit with them in order for them to feel safe-

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm

    18. MR

      ... to be able to take the step forward. And then you better keep backing off, because you do not wanna be like, "Oh, I saw you didn't mentor your te-" Like, that's gonna-- No. And so you keep going. Let them. And then the C part is any small thing, you celebrate it in a non-passive-aggressive way, and you actually model the change. You can't ask somebody to stop drinking while you're pouring yourself a glass of wine.

    19. JS

      For sure.

    20. MR

      You can't ask somebody else to get healthy if you're sitting on the couch eating chips. So you model the change and make it easy, just like my colleague did with the walk. And just like you and I constantly buy things online 'cause it looks so easy and fun, your behavior and backing off and that tension inside them actually creates the space for somebody to truly want to change.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MR

      And that's how it's done.

    23. JS

      Mel, I wanna thank you so deeply for writing this book. The Let Them Theory, a life-changing tool that millions of people can't stop talking about. It's true. Uh, Mel, I've learned so much from you today, honestly, and you've connected so many dots to me. I know I'm gonna be recommending this book to so many people in my life, because I really believe it's the thing that's holding them back.

    24. MR

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      I wanna thank you for writing it. I wanna thank you for pouring your heart into it. I wanna thank you for just showing up so brilliantly and emphatically today, as you always do. And I'm just so grateful to call you a friend and grateful to know you in this journey called life, and genuinely so thankful that you're constantly trying to find really simple, practical tools that all of us can apply in our lives to make it easier and make it a bit more livable, but also thrive. So thank you so much, truly.

    26. MR

      Well, I'm not as smart as you, Jay.

    27. JS

      [laughs]

    28. MR

      So I can't do the intellectual stuff. I gotta find simple things.

    29. JS

      You kidding me?

    30. MR

      Well, you know, I have to tell you, I really appreciate-

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