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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

MICHELLE OBAMA: This Is What Scares Me Most In Today's America!

Jay sits down once again with former First Lady Michelle Obama and her brother, coach and mentor Craig Robinson, for an intimate conversation centered around family, resilience, and the lasting impact of love and connection.

Michelle ObamaguestJay ShettyhostCraig Robinsonguest
Apr 28, 20251h 26mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 2:00

    Intro

    1. MO

      To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough? Me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist. So let's unpack that. Former First Lady Michelle Obama-

    2. JS

      And someone who knows her best, her big brother, Craig-

    3. CR

      Will be hosting a podcast called IMO.

    4. JS

      What have been your personal journeys with therapy?

    5. MO

      We need to be coached throughout our lives.

    6. CR

      My mom wanted us to be independent children.

    7. MO

      Mm.

    8. CR

      And she would always tell me, "Stop worrying about your sister."

    9. MO

      Having been the First Lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain.

    10. JS

      What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of fear?

    11. MO

      I'm gonna make him start so that I don't start crying. [gentle music]

    12. CR

      The number one health and wellness podcast.

    13. MO

      Jay Shetty.

    14. CR

      Jay Shetty.

    15. MO

      The one, the only Jay Shetty.

    16. CR

      [laughs]

    17. JS

      Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guests are two of my favorite people. I'm so grateful and excited to welcome one of them back, and one of them for the first time ever. I'm speaking about none other than Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Welcome-

    18. MO

      The dynamic-

    19. JS

      To On Purpose

    20. MO

      ... duo

    21. JS

      ... the dynamic duo.

    22. MO

      [laughs] I always say it's like you, you're my most favorite interview ever, period.

    23. JS

      Oh my gosh.

    24. MO

      Yeah.

    25. CR

      That's a, that's saying a lot.

    26. MO

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. JS

      Oh my gosh.

    28. MO

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      Wow, you're gonna make me cry. I'm like-

    30. MO

      Yeah, yeah

  2. 2:00 – 4:15

    The Kind of Love Only Siblings Understand

    1. CR

      she, oh.

    2. JS

      Yeah, she, she's an optometrist in London. Uh-

    3. MO

      The best.

    4. JS

      Yeah. Um-

    5. CR

      That would, yes

    6. JS

      ... she's gonna check your eyes for you happily.

    7. CR

      Yes.

    8. MO

      [laughs]

    9. JS

      She's four and a half years younger than me, and, and I still remember the moment... Well, I don't remember the moment. It's interesting. I've seen a picture of me holding her when she was born-

    10. CR

      Oh

    11. JS

      ... and I was, like, four and a half, five years old.

    12. CR

      Ooh.

    13. MO

      Yeah.

    14. JS

      And so I have this memory that I held her when she was born.

    15. MO

      Yeah.

    16. JS

      And we've been inseparable ever since.

    17. CR

      Jay, you're gonna have to, when she comes to town, just don't tell her, just tell us-

    18. JS

      [laughs]

    19. CR

      ... and we'll come back.

    20. JS

      [laughs]

    21. CR

      And we can just ambush her-

    22. JS

      Oh, I love that

    23. CR

      ... and have her on the show.

    24. JS

      Oh, she, yeah, she, she will kill me. [laughs]

    25. MO

      But we have one of those pictures, too. My favorite family-

    26. CR

      Oh, yeah

    27. MO

      ... picture. Um, uh, I was a n- newborn. I was mon- maybe 10 months, but I was one of these big, fat, round, mm, puffy babies in a bonnet and a white dress, and my dad was in a suit and a bow tie, and Mom, my, our mom had the beau- most beautiful, uh, tunic dress on, and Craig sat on her lap. I was on my dad's lap. And-

    28. JS

      [laughs]

    29. MO

      ... um, I, I have this little fat arm, and he's in a little bow tie.

    30. JS

      [laughs]

  3. 4:15 – 9:53

    What was the First Secret You Shared With Each Other?

    1. JS

      and stay in touch-

    2. MO

      Mm-hmm

    3. JS

      ... and we're constantly connected.

    4. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JS

      And I wanted to start by asking you this question for both of you, that I feel like the first time me and my sister got close is when I shared a secret with her.

    6. MO

      Mm.

    7. JS

      And I was wondering, what was the first secret that you ever told each other? As, as early as it was, uh, as silly as it was, that you remember sharing something in confidence in the beginning, early days of your relationship.

    8. CR

      Okay, now, you did this to me when w- you came on our show. That is a question I've never been asked.

    9. MO

      [laughs]

    10. CR

      I love it.

    11. JS

      Good, good.

    12. CR

      I love it.

    13. JS

      [laughs]

    14. CR

      All right, you got me back. You got me back.

    15. MO

      [laughs]

    16. CR

      Okay.

    17. MO

      A secret.

    18. CR

      What, a secret.

    19. MO

      I don't know if it was a secret, but it was a s- uh, what felt like a secret practice of ours. Like-

    20. JS

      Mm

    21. MO

      ... we shared a, a room, um, uh, uh, for most of our lives, and there came a point in time when our parents, 'cause we didn't have a lot of money, thought it's time for them to have their own rooms. So they took this one big room, and our grandfather Southside, who was a jack leg carpenter, built plywood, a plywood T wall that went down the middle of the, the, this one bedroom and broke the room into two little units that were big enough for a twin bed and a desk, and one of those accordion doors, right?

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MO

      That was, those were our rooms-

    24. CR

      And it was that-

    25. MO

      ... when we had our own room

    26. CR

      ... that old paneling look.

    27. JS

      Yeah.

    28. MO

      Right.

    29. CR

      So it was, it was that fake wood that was-

    30. MO

      Uh-huh

  4. 9:53 – 14:55

    Raised To Be Independent Children In A Loving Community

    1. JS

      that's who you-

    2. CR

      Yes

    3. JS

      ... dissected the day with.

    4. CR

      Exactly.

    5. JS

      Uh, even if it-

    6. CR

      Exactly

    7. JS

      ... wasn't very deep and profound at the time.

    8. MO

      Yeah. We were stuck with each other.

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. MO

      For better or for worse. [laughs]

    11. JS

      I, I love that. What was, what would you say was something that you felt, a value that you learned at that early stage in your life that you both feel you've kept till today? Like something that's continued to be a part of who you are today.

    12. CR

      My mom wanted us to be independent children.

    13. MO

      Mm.

    14. CR

      And she would always tell me, "Stop worrying about your sister," because whenever I did something, I wanted to include her. If I was going outside and she was outside, I felt like I had to keep an eye on her.

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. CR

      I felt like I had to protect her, and my mom always said to not do that.

    17. JS

      Interesting.

    18. CR

      First of all, she didn't want Miche to have to feel like she was being looked after by her brother. That's what her parents were for.

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. CR

      And she didn't want me to have to worry about her.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CR

      But I will say that I couldn't stop worrying about her.

    23. JS

      [laughs]

    24. CR

      So I have been looking after her from the time she was a little kid and I was holding her arm. We ended up at, in college together at Princeton, and you remember when we drove to South Carolina?

    25. MO

      Uh-huh, yeah. We-

    26. CR

      We rented a car-

    27. MO

      For spring break

    28. CR

      ... for spring break and drove to South Carolina and-

    29. MO

      To visit our grandparents-

    30. CR

      At our grand-

  5. 14:55 – 17:00

    How Different Generations Celebrate Birthdays

    1. MO

      and we made it happen in that little house on 74th and Euclid. It was just brimming with, with love and conversation and trust. I'm 60 years old. I've finished a really hard thing in my life with my family intact. I'm an empty nester, and now for the first time, as I've said before, every choice that I'm making is completely mine. My mom always said that, "It's not my life. It's not my failure. It's not my homework. It's not my going to school. It's yours." I told Barack, I was like, "You know, we either do this stuff early and deal with it, have these hard kind of conversations, deal with these mistakes and failures when they're 10 and 5 and 13, rather than having them live in our basement at 35 for the rest of their lives."

    2. CR

      [laughs]

    3. JS

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    4. MO

      Mm-hmm

    5. JS

      ... and just the gathering of minds and-

    6. MO

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... family and how important that is. And Craig, I know your birthday's coming up too, like-

    8. CR

      It is

    9. JS

      ... in like a few days.

    10. MO

      Yeah.

    11. CR

      Thanks for, thanks for remembering.

    12. JS

      Yeah. And, and, uh-

    13. CR

      21st.

    14. JS

      Yeah, absolutely.

    15. CR

      Yes.

    16. JS

      Happy 21st birthday. But as a-

    17. CR

      [laughs]

    18. JS

      ... were birthdays a big part of connecting over the years as well, or has that not been? 'Cause that for my sister is like the biggest day. She's like, "My birthday is really

  6. 17:00 – 19:47

    How to Unlearn Your Inner Fears

    1. JS

      important."

    2. MO

      [laughs]

    3. JS

      "Do not miss my birthday." Like I know.

    4. CR

      Well, we never missed birthdays, and we always celebrated birthdays, but they weren't a big deal like where we had a party.

    5. JS

      Right.

    6. CR

      Like I think you had one or two birthday parties-

    7. MO

      And this is the tripped out thing about this generation, like kids have parties every year-

    8. JS

      [laughs]

    9. CR

      And multiple parties

    10. MO

      ... and they're, they're blowout, you know?

    11. CR

      Yeah. Yeah.

    12. MO

      I mean-

    13. JS

      It's birthday months now.

    14. MO

      It's a birthday month-

    15. CR

      Yeah

    16. MO

      ... and you're renting something, and you're catering and, you know. I think, like o- our generation, you had maybe 13, maybe 5-

    17. CR

      Yeah

    18. MO

      ... years old, you had two parties, and they were at your house in the kitchen table-

    19. CR

      Right

    20. JS

      Yeah

    21. MO

      ... you know, with your cousins.

    22. CR

      And, and you played pin the tail on the donkey in the yard or-

    23. MO

      Mm-hmm

    24. CR

      ... somewhere like that. But, but as a family, we celebrated everybody's birthday, and it was a big deal.

    25. MO

      It was.

    26. CR

      And every now and then, that community of relatives that were around us would come over, and it didn't matter what the day. If it was Thursday and everybody had to go to work on Friday, they would come over and sing happy birthday, give cards out. Birthdays were always celebrated in our family.

    27. MO

      They weren't like big like, "See me, bring me gifts."

    28. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MO

      But it was a time to gather.

    30. CR

      Yeah.

  7. 19:47 – 25:28

    The Fear Of What Could Happen Can Hinder Personal Growth

    1. CR

      had a cane, and then he had the crutches that went around his arm. And I would practice dragging him with his should- uh, with my arms under his shoulders around the house, and he would... I know it was humiliating, but he'd let me do it. And my mom would be like, "Craig, put Frasier down. Just stop doing that." And I wanted to make sure I could drag him through the house, and we had like 14 stairs down to get out. I didn't drag him down there-

    2. MO

      [laughs]

    3. CR

      ... but I knew I could if I had to. That's something I had to unlearn-

    4. JS

      Mm

    5. CR

      ... because that was a real fear of mine, was a fear of dying in a fire.

    6. JS

      Wow.

    7. CR

      Yeah.

    8. JS

      What did it take? Like, what was the-

    9. CR

      Well, what it took was I realized it was irrational as I got older because there were less house fires.

    10. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CR

      And, and I guess it wasn't irrational because there were-

    12. MO

      Mm

    13. CR

      ... actually house fires, but the, the advent of smoke detectors and the advent of sort of infla- uh, non-inflammable or what is it? Non-inflammable-

    14. MO

      Non-flammable

    15. CR

      ... items around the house. I was always worried about a fire starting, and we had a fire start in our kitchen. Remember? We were cooking Pop-Tarts, which were like, uh, the, the-

    16. MO

      On Saturday mornings, um-

    17. CR

      ... Toast'ems. We, they're, they-

    18. MO

      ... we, we kinda had the run of the kitchen, uh, 'cause that was the day Mom would sleep in. Um, and we had this old toaster, and we were making Pop-Tarts-

    19. CR

      Yeah

    20. MO

      ... and it caught fire-

    21. CR

      And the jelly came out

    22. MO

      ... and there were flames coming. It was-

    23. CR

      And the flame came up, and then-

    24. MO

      Mm-hmm

    25. CR

      ... sure enough, we-

    26. MO

      You're like, "This is it." [laughs]

    27. CR

      This is it.

    28. MO

      Mom to the rescue.

    29. CR

      Mom came in and put it under the sink-

    30. JS

      Yeah

  8. 25:28 – 29:35

    What a Childhood Encounter with Police Taught Me About Bias

    1. MO

      could have been limited by that because while, um, it physically limited some of our, our relatives, some of our grandparents' perspectives, like many people in this country, they were backwards thinking. You know, their views of white people and who they could trust, you know. The same south side never went to the doctor because he didn't trust doctors, so he, you know, never went to the dentist. That's probably why he died in his 70s. He didn't have a tooth in his head, but he would never go to the dentist. You know, and we would talk about these things around our immediate kitchen table because our parents wanted us to learn from the mistakes that they had made and others. And that was the power-

    2. JS

      Wow

    3. MO

      ... of that household is I, I... Our parents talked to us very openly and honestly about some of the weird things you'd see at Christmas dinner or some of the conversations, and you'd come back and go, "Well, why did, why did Dandy, our other grandfather, say that? Why did he yell about that? What was he talking about?" We were always allowed to question.

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. MO

      And that fear element and the, the limitations on people's views of the world, we would see and discuss, and we were told, "You have to do better than that. You have to live beyond that fear. You have to push yourself outside of your comfort zone." And I continue to try to do that, instill that in m- my kids and other kids to this day.

    6. JS

      I mean, that's such a profound thing to reflect on when thinking about what to unlearn because it's so, as you said, it wasn't, both of yours, but especially this is something that isn't gonna change-

    7. MO

      Mm-hmm

    8. JS

      ... based on a mindset because it exists-

    9. MO

      Yeah

    10. JS

      ... in reality. Did either of you ever have any close calls or run-ins that-

    11. MO

      Oh, yeah

    12. JS

      ... that you've would like to share or feel comfortable sharing?

    13. MO

      He more than me. You were about 10 years old.

    14. CR

      I, I was, I was probably more like 12-

    15. MO

      Mm

    16. CR

      ... 'cause I could ride to Rainbow Beach. So figure I'm 12 years old, like-

    17. MO

      Which is a beach in our neighborhood

    18. CR

      ... seventh grade-ish. A department store near our house called Goldblatt's had a sale on 10-speed bikes, the kind with the, with the, uh, handlebars-

    19. MO

      Mm-hmm

    20. CR

      ... that go under.

    21. MO

      Uh-huh.

    22. CR

      That was brand new back then. They were yellow, and they sold a ton of them. And-

    23. MO

      You got one as a-

    24. CR

      I got one

    25. MO

      ... as a gift, your first 10-speed bike.

    26. CR

      And it had to b- I got, must have gotten it for my birthday, so-

    27. MO

      Mm-hmm

    28. CR

      ... it's probably around this time of the year. But it didn't come with the clamps to hold the cables along the yoke, so my mom used these twist ties that she got from the baggies that you would put stuff in before you had the Ziploc. You had these bags, and then you put these green and white twist ti- twisty ties on it. So she put them on my bike and, and there is a point to this.

    29. MO

      Yeah.

    30. CR

      So I'm-

  9. 29:35 – 31:54

    Being Judged By The Color Of Your Skin

    1. CR

      So he wouldn't believe me, and so now I'm getting worried, and he picks up my bike and puts it in the trunk of the car, puts me in the back of the car and says, "Where do you live?" And I sa- I told him where I lived, and he just dro- drove... I said, "You'll f- You'll realize this is my bike. We can go right to my mom's, right to my house." So we pull up to my house, and by this time I'm in tears. I'm just beside myself. I ring the doorbell, and my mom was worried 'cause she knew I was gone for a long bike ride. She comes out, and I said, "The policeman has accused me of stealing this bike," and I'm in, in tears. She comes out, and she said, "Wait inside." And I'm on our front porch looking out, or actually I'm upstairs-

    2. MO

      Mm

    3. CR

      ... looking down 'cause we lived-

    4. MO

      Mm-hmm

    5. CR

      ... upstairs. I'm looking down, and I see her, and I can tell she is pissed, and she is talking to him like she would talk to us if we were in trouble. And all I can see is the, the policeman trying to defend himself. So after about 20 minutes, she yells up to the window, "Craig, come down here." And she said, "This policeman, uh, has something to say to you." And this dude took off his hat and apologized for accusing me of stealing his bike.

    6. MO

      Incredible.

    7. CR

      And as it turned out, they ended up finding the guy, but it was... You know, that's, that's kind of the collateral damage of being a young Black kid living in the city.

    8. MO

      Well, I need to... I just think about all, you know, what would have happened if my mom wasn't a stay-at-home mom. What if she had been in work when that happened? What if, you know, he didn't have a mom that, you know, would stand up for him?

    9. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MO

      What, what if... W- what are all of the what-ifs that, that could have happened? Um, and that, you know, is... You imagine you're just having-

    11. CR

      Mm-hmm

    12. MO

      ... a regular day, and your son is pulled up to your house in the back of a police car.

    13. JS

      At 10 years old.

    14. MO

      At 10-

    15. CR

      Yeah

    16. MO

      ... 12 years old.

    17. CR

      It was, it was frightening. It was frightening.

    18. MO

      You know, and I think what she was incredulous was- about was that he wasn't even inclined to believe this little boy, who

  10. 31:54 – 34:07

    Racism Is Still An Issue

    1. MO

      was obviously articulate, didn't look... You know, you don't even wanna say didn't look like some little hood rat, because what does that matter, right? But that was, you know, th- that was unusual for us because we were good kids. I mean, and we lived in a neighborhood where there... Kids were getting into trouble all the time, and he knew all the kids 'cause he was a basketball player. He knew the, the gang kids and the drug dealers and the... But everybody also knew him, you know? And, you know, when you grow up in a neighborhood, people know the kids that are heading in the wrong direction and the kids who have promise. Everybody knew that Craig was a good student, he was a good guy. And the notion, and I felt the anger too. It's like, how dare you do that to my brother?

    2. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MO

      But he, you know, he had a support system. He could've wound up in jail-

    4. CR

      Yeah

    5. MO

      ... for stealing, not stealing a bike. Um, so yeah, that kind of stuff happened all the time. Um, you know, walking into a department store as a young kid and having the, the, you know, salespeople wonder why you're there, and you're coming f- You're an honor student coming from high school, you know, having lunch with your friends. I mean, they don't, they didn't see that part. There were times when that-

    6. CR

      Yeah

    7. MO

      ... that part of us couldn't be... We couldn't walk around saying, "Valedictorian, straight A student," uh, you know, "Speaks excellent, has excellent diction if you give them a chance."

    8. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MO

      You know? We knew very early on that that, no one was gonna see beyond the color of our skin at an early age. Uh, and, and that could get you in trouble.

    10. JS

      Yeah. I mean, when you talk about that fear, I'm sure that fear's been tested across your life in so many different places, and I wonder what would you say has been the most hardest recent test of that fear? Because it's not one of those fears that you kind of get over and it just goes away. It kind of shows its head in many different ways, I imagine.

    11. MO

      Well, in this current climate, for me, it's, you know, what's happening to immigrants. You know, so it's, it's not the fear for myself anymore. I drive around in a four-car

  11. 34:07 – 35:59

    How to Raise Resilient Children

    1. MO

      motorcade with a police escort. I'm Michelle Obama. I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable. So my fears are for what I know is happening out there in streets all over the, the city, and now that we have leadership that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't, and we know that those decisions aren't being made with courts and with due process and, you know, that, that it's being made like this cop that pulled my brother over when he was 12. You don't look like somebody [scoffs] that belongs. You know? I can determine just by looking at you that you're, you know, you're a good person or you're not a good person. And knowing that there's so much bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that fuels those kind of d- choices, I worry for people of color all over this country, and I don't know that we will have the advocates to protect everybody, and that makes me... That frightens me. It, it keeps me up at night. Uh, and I know that there... And I, and I see that when I'm driving around LA. I'm, I'm just looking in the faces of folks who could be victim, and I'm wondering, how are you feeling? How do you feel standing on the bus stop? How do you, how do you feel comfortable going to work, going to school, when you know that there could be people out here judging you and who could upend your life in a second? Um, that, you know, that, that, that's who I worry for right now.

    2. JS

      What do you both do with that fear? Because I think that's very real, and a lot of people listening probably feel very similarly to both of you as well. What do you do with it? Because it almost feels overwhelming,

  12. 35:59 – 38:17

    Don't Make Assumptions Based On Your Emotions

    1. JS

      and especially for someone going through it, as you were talking about with your daughters too. It's, it's not something that you rationalize and, you know, it's, it's not the same as so many other fears. So what do you do with it?

    2. CR

      See, I still have a couple of young kids at home. So I've got a, a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old. So I'm still in the education process for those guys because we, you know, we live in a suburb and, and, uh, we have a relatively safe environment. So our kids aren't growing up with that kind of fear that we had, but I have to make them aware of it because at some point they're gonna be away from us, and they're gonna be in a place where they're going to encounter that. I'm trying to be as empathetic as I can because that's how we were taught to deal with this kind of behavior. Our mom always said, "Just put yourself in the other guy's shoes. He's probably had a bad upbringing, an ignorant upbringing. Uh, his folks didn't know anything." And that's how I always viewed people who treated me with disdain because of my race or because of where I'm from or, or-

    3. JS

      That's powerful

    4. CR

      ... w- w- anything. And I'm trying to help my, my even my older kids who are thirty-three and twenty-nine, they're, they're, they're pretty much formed and are, are handling things on their own. But it's a good reminder to talk about this and, and put, put some coping strategies together for especially our, our teenagers because they're going to, um, they're going to encounter this at some point.

    5. MO

      I have to r- practice reverse, you know, messaging in my own head about this stuff because you can get locked in the, the, the disappointments of w- what is happening right now, and you can sit i- in it and let that eat you up, and it can taint your view of so much. Having been the First Lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. You know? I had to, um, remind myself and put myself in situations that reminded

  13. 38:17 – 40:48

    Don't Let Negative Thoughts Dictate Your Actions

    1. MO

      me the ideals and beliefs that I disagree with are not pervasive, that, you know, there are a lot of good people out there, again, employing empathy, but also reminding myself of the truth of what I've seen and I've experienced. We're, that we're in a confusing time, but it doesn't help me and it doesn't help the country for me to grow cynical-

    2. JS

      Mm

    3. MO

      ... in that space. So it... I kind of view it as it's, it's a duty as a citizen to not do the same thing that they're doing and start making assumptions about people based on my anger and fear, you know, that I have to assume that most people are trying to do the right thing, that deep down inside, the vast majority of us do not wanna see our neighbors and our friends and relatives live in fear. They just don't understand what it feels like to be the target, but if they knew, they would understand, which is why communication and conversation is so important because maybe if I can tell a story, you know, if I can, if I can help them be in the shoes of someone and that it can have that same empathizing effect, that I'd rather u- use that rather than, than become, to become discouraged and then suspicious-

    4. CR

      Mm

    5. MO

      ... and just be the, you know, just do what they're doing. I don't wanna become that. Uh, so it's a constant reminder, do not slip in to that behavior yourself.

    6. JS

      I love that. I, I think that's such a optimistic, hopeful, powerful mindset, and you're so right because if we all become cynical and skeptical and negative, it only makes it worse for us-

    7. MO

      Mm

    8. JS

      ... and worse for everyone around us.

    9. MO

      Yeah.

    10. JS

      That-

    11. MO

      And let me, let me tell you-

    12. JS

      ... it's valid

    13. MO

      ... I can, I can, and I can-

    14. JS

      Yeah

    15. MO

      ... be cynical [laughs]

    16. CR

      [laughs]

    17. MO

      And I can-

    18. JS

      Mm

    19. MO

      ... be all of that, and I don't wanna set myself, because in these times it's hard. No one is perfect, but I try to keep that-

    20. JS

      Yes

    21. MO

      ... to my kitchen table, you know?

    22. JS

      Mm.

    23. MO

      I mean, I, I feel like when you, w- when you have a platform and you have a voice, there is a responsibility to use that wisely. So yes, I, yes, even I in going high, there are times I wanna go low.

    24. JS

      [laughs]

    25. MO

      And I need to let that out, but I'm never gonna let that out in public because that's not even fully, truly how I feel, you know? Um, so

  14. 40:48 – 48:41

    The Power Of Good Parenting

    1. MO

      just for our listeners and viewers, it's like, yes, of course, we all feel it. It's just a question of how do we act on it.

    2. CR

      And you hear this. This is why we're doing IMO.

    3. JS

      Yes.

    4. CR

      Right? It's just to be able to take the lessons we've learned and the experiences that we've gone through, and hers being at the level of the White House and mine being what they are, sort of I'm, I'm the still the regular guy in the family.

    5. MO

      [laughs]

    6. JS

      [laughs] I knew that was going on.

    7. CR

      But we're, we're, we're, we're hoping-

    8. JS

      [laughs]

    9. CR

      ... that we can share some of these with folks and learn some things from the people that we have on, like you. Just listening to her do that, this is, I... This is the most fun I am having-

    10. MO

      [laughs]

    11. CR

      ... other than hanging with my kids and my family.

    12. MO

      [laughs]

    13. CR

      I just get goosebumps when, when you hear some, some good, um, wisdom.

    14. JS

      Oh, yeah. I mean, that, that, that totally s- like, you know, it just... It was just such a refreshing take on what I was saying was is a valid concern, is a natural feeling that people are having.

    15. MO

      Mm.

    16. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JS

      But to flip the script in our own minds as to how we deal with it, and that constant battle that we have to have with the thoughts in our head. And I love what you're doing with IMO. I mean, I was so grateful to be a guest on the show and to visit you both, uh, in Martha's Vineyard, which was last year, I think.

    18. MO

      It was.

    19. CR

      Last year.

    20. JS

      And first of all, I'm just so grateful when I see... Doing it with family is just special because already you're seeing sides of each other that you'd never see elsewhere. So you can tell how authentic and real it is and, and true it is, which is so beautiful. And on top of that, what I love about it the most is that I feel the fact that you're doing a podcast, which is the most accessible platform where you're giving s- I mean, you know, when we were on, like, questions coming in from the audience that we were tackling together, trying to hear from both of your experiences. And by the way, Craig, you saying that you, you know-

    21. MO

      The regular guy

    22. JS

      ... the normal, regular person in the family.

    23. MO

      [laughs]

    24. JS

      I mean, like, you know, like-

    25. CR

      Compared to her [laughs]

    26. JS

      ... I hope everyone has the regular li- you know. It's amazing to hear it from both of your sides, and, and the fact that you're opening up even just the way you did now about these real-life experiences that you've both had. I, I think it's so needed because I think the challenge is that when people do have success, as both of you have had, and, and the incredible heights of success that you've had, you forget that someone was once scared that they were told they were stealing a bike.

    27. MO

      Yeah.

    28. JS

      Or, you know, that they were scared about going down a particular street in their neighborhood.

    29. MO

      Yeah.

    30. JS

      And, and that's where so many people start out, and it's not saying that everyone has to go and achieve things externally in the world to get out of that, but these are real emotions. And, and I think what you were saying to me that resonated just now, Michelle, was this idea that you've had to push yourself out of that comfort zone, and your parents wanted you to not have that. I mean, what amazing parenting.

  15. 48:41 – 52:08

    How To Prioritize Being A Parent While Chasing Your Dreams

    1. MO

      you know? I mean, we're not... Right now, we're not investing in education, so we can't... You know, we're not paying teachers enough. We're leaving this all on us.

    2. JS

      We- we're on our own.

    3. MO

      We're saying, "We don't want to pay taxes for any of this stuff," right? So we sure as hell better be good at taking care of our kids, 'cause now we're saying, "Well, then it's all on us, and we can't afford to get it wrong."

    4. JS

      Mic drop. That was like... That really hits hard. I mean, that resonates so strongly, and I feel as I was listening to you, it's in one sense, and I want to ask you this both as parents, I'm not a parent yet, and partly it's because me and my wife have these discussions.

    5. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JS

      We talk a lot about what our parenting philosophy is, and we've talked about it over the years that we've been together. We've been together now for twelve years and married for nine, and it's been a topic of conversation, and there's been things we haven't agreed on, there's things we agree on, and we wanna make sure that we have an aligned viewpoint. Even if we have slight differences-

    7. CR

      Right

    8. JS

      ... we wanna have an aligned viewpoint of because we want the kids to get a clear message. We don't want them to get mom and dad to have different viewpoints, and they're, you know, they're arguing about it, trying to figure it out. And, and it's hard, and I wanted to ask you both as parents, I think, you know, you've both lived incredibly successful lives. You went to the best schools in the country. You know, you went on to pivot and have an amazing career in your passion of basketball. Like, to even be able to do that as a coach is incredible, Craig, right? Like, to be able to pivot, which I'm sure took sacrifice and stress, and I want to link it to parenting. And of course, Michelle, like going to the White House, raising kids while you're at the White House, leaving, then continuing. How did you put parenting as a priority despite prioritizing your passion-

    9. CR

      Mm-hmm

    10. JS

      ... prioritizing the country and service, prioritizing your own marriages? Like, I feel like there's so much pressure on parents. We just said we can't rely on school, we can't rely on the government, can't rely, so that means it's all on this person. How does a parent take that pressure in a way that uplifts them and allows them to pursue their greatness too, rather than feel completely paralyzed by it?

    11. CR

      The first thing that comes to my mind is that, as Miche said, we were so blessed to have such good parents. I feel obligated to be a great parent as a tribute to our, my own parents.

    12. JS

      Well, you also know what a great parent looks like.

    13. CR

      I do know what a great parent looks like, but I also am so thankful for the sacrifices that they made so that we could thrive, and it makes sense, and irrespective of whatever my passion is, which is c- basketball or coaching or mentoring, the first responsibility I have are to the four kids that I brought into this world. And that's an easy one, Jay, for me to, to do. So if I had to sacrifice my passion for my kids, I would've. Fortunately, coaching is a terrific environment to raise kids because you're around other young people, and it really is like having fifteen kids instead of just four.

  16. 52:08 – 58:07

    Parents Aren't Responsible For Their Children's Happiness

    1. CR

      I would say there, there is a discipline that comes with it, and you talked about this being aligned. We call it united front in our house. No matter what, what we're thinking, we are gonna come to an agreement when it comes to, all right, let's give some advice to these kids. This is the advice. Sometimes it's what Kelly wants, and sometimes it's what I want.

    2. JS

      Your wife.

    3. CR

      My wife, Kelly.

    4. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CR

      So there's a coordinated communication, there's discipline, and then most of all, and I think I hear the word me time in par- these young parents. You know, my parents never talked about me time. Their, their me time was our time, and I know from a, from a mental health standpoint, we all need to get away and, and be on our own, but I would do that after I made sure my kids were solidly on good footing before I was worried about, I need a vacation with my boys to go to Vegas. And I just saw my dad and, and, and you talked about it. He was a shift worker for the city of Chicago, but he made time no matter what shift he was on to attend our events, to play with us when we, when he got home. No matter how tired he was, he made us the priority. So it's not hard work for... It doesn't feel like it's hard work for, for me and for us. We just had really good role models, and we were well-coached in parenting.

    6. JS

      Well, when you think a-- talk about the pressure, I do, I do think that these days parents feel a lot of pressure, but we're, like, taking on the wrong pressure. Like, we feel responsible for our kids' happiness and success.

    7. CR

      Mm.

    8. JS

      Right? So we put a lot of pressure on making sure they achieve, like making sure they don't fail, making sure they don't feel bad, or they don't experience disappointments. So a lot of that emotional energy we're taking on is, in my view, m- it's misdirected, and it takes a lot of energy if you think that you're responsible for your kids' to happiness, right?

    9. CR

      Wow.

    10. JS

      And it's, it's a whole lot of energy if you think your kids should always be happy. I mean, that's a current parenting generational angst. Like, no generations before us, [laughs] you know, cared about whether their kids were happy, uh, let alone being responsible for your happiness or that you should be happy all the time. I, I-- it feels like that's a new phenomenon.

    11. CR

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      Right? You know.

    13. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JS

      I mean, we just think of all the work that we do to keep our kids busy and, you know, engaged, and we sign them up for this and sign them up for that, and, you know, we're taking them here, and we're taking them there instead of just going, "Well, maybe you're gonna be bored today."

    15. MO

      You know? What am I, what are we doing on Saturday, Mom? When I was growing up, the answer was, "Nothing." [laughs] You know? And my mother went on with her day. You know, we're, we're kind of taking on a lot of that. My mom always said that, "I am going to help you own your life-

    16. JS

      Mm

    17. MO

      ... as early as possible." [laughs] So-

    18. JS

      Great words. Yeah

    19. MO

      ... you know, so that it's not my life. [laughs] It's not my failure. It's not my homework. It's not my going to school. It's yours. And when you start giving your kids their lives early, which means you gotta let go, there's a worry in that. But if you start letting go, it's like you, you gotta wake yourself up. You gotta make your bed. You gotta wash a plate. You can get to school. You can figure it out. You gotta figure it out. And I think these days, parents don't wanna... They don't want that process of watching their kids figure it out, and I get it. It is hard to watch the, the, the person that you love literally walk into a wall that you see. [laughs]

    20. JS

      [exhales]

    21. MO

      You know? Because our instinct as parents is go, "Sweetie, no, no, no. You are walking right into a wall. Uh, let me stop you and sit you here and be safe with me. Now I feel better." Right? And the truth is, is that someti- at least I've learned f- with my kids, they have to walk into that wall. They have to bump their head hard. And it's, it hurts me to see it, but I've found that they learn faster that way than me keeping them from bumping their heads.

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MO

      Um, and there's a release with that. It's like it's a different kind of difficult thing that you're dealing with, right?

    24. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MO

      You're dealing with your own emotions and watching somebody that you care about go through tough stuff. But there's no other way to get them to be independent other than dealing with that pain, right? And I always say, as I told Barack, I was like, "You know, we either do this stuff early and deal with it, have these hard kind of conversations, deal with these mistakes and failures when they're 10 and 5 and 13, than to, rather than having them live in our basement at 35 [laughs] for-

    26. JS

      [laughs]

    27. MO

      ... for the rest of their lives."

    28. JS

      [laughs]

    29. MO

      It's like I don't want a kid in my basement. So I've been m- our parents parented us not to be in their basement.

    30. JS

      Mm-hmm.

  17. 58:07 – 1:02:24

    Focus On Cultivating Independence in Your Children

    1. MO

      by setting forth some real hard-to-manage boundaries at three and four and five, you're not even dealing with a lot of these issues at 16 because they've practiced something else in your presence. And so now, 16, 20, our girls are, all of our kids are joys to be with.

    2. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MO

      They all live on their own. Our, our kids have an Obama tax that we will continue to pay just to cost on their life that is not their own, so there are certain places that they cannot live, where they can afford to live. There's certain things like that. But all of our kids, they don't want our help because they're, they get gratification in saying they did this.

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. MO

      And that go, comes down to choosing the college that they're gonna go to. I may not agree with you. Uh, it, it happened. It's like, "I don't think you're gonna like that school, but it's gotta be your choice."

    6. JS

      Yeah.

    7. MO

      You know? "I don't think you- you're gonna like that, that girlfriend. It's gotta be your choice. I gotta look the other way. I gotta... And then I've gotta be there with you after you make that mistake, going, 'It's okay. Let's talk about it. What did you learn?'" Let's, you know... But I, my mother was staying out of our lives very early in our lives.

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. MO

      Um, and I think that's something that makes parenting easy in one way but emotionally difficult in another way.

    10. JS

      Yeah. Wow. And I really, really appreciate the clarification of reprioritizing that pressure.

    11. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JS

      Because the pressure we're placing, as you said, on the winning, the succeeding, the... It's almost misplaced. There's a distinction that I'm hearing from both of you in coddling an individual and cultivating independence.

    13. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JS

      And when we think of more love or more support, we think fix, solve, control.

    15. MO

      Yes.

    16. CR

      Yeah.

    17. JS

      Done, right? That's, that's what we think love is. We think love means you have no problems.

    18. MO

      That's right.

    19. JS

      We took care of everything.

    20. CR

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      And we're here for everything that you need.

    22. MO

      That's right.

    23. JS

      And actually, what we've realized is love is setting someone up to carry themselves-

    24. MO

      Exactly

    25. JS

      ... and fix themselves and serve themselves.

    26. MO

      And feeling the confidence in, in being able to do that. They-

    27. JS

      Yeah.

    28. MO

      Competence is love, too. And you know, I always want my kids to know that I, I do trust-

    29. JS

      Mm

    30. MO

      ... that you have good sense. I do. You can do this. Watch you do it. And just see how kids light up when they accomplish something on their own. And when you're, if you're the fixer, you're robbing your kids of that sense of self-satisfaction. I failed. It hurt, but it was me. But when I succeed, it's also me.

  18. 1:02:24 – 1:11:08

    What Is Your Form Of Therapy?

    1. CR

      are leaving town without you.

    2. MO

      And doing things they never did. They never did. They never got to travel when they were young. They didn't have the resources. They didn't go to college.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. MO

      They didn't go off their block, out of their neighborhoods, you know. So imagine the fear of sending your kids to do something, to going to Princeton.

    5. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MO

      You know? The day they let him leave to go to some school and some place where they knew nothing about the rituals, the, the prestige, you know, the kind of confidence in your f- parenting philosophy that it would take to execute that when we were growing up in a community where people's parents wouldn't even fill out their FAFSA forms because they were afraid of their kids going to college. So they held onto their kids. They said, "Go to, go to the state school down the street because it will make me... Deep down, it will make me feel better."

    7. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MO

      "Because I don't wanna let you go."

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MO

      "Don't go out of state. Don't leave the home. Don't go out of the neighborhood." A lot of parents parent out of fear, and it's fear for themselves. It's real fear, for sure.

    11. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MO

      You know, do not get me wrong. It's the hardest thing to do-

    13. CR

      Mm

    14. MO

      ... which is what makes parenting so hard, which is why people really have to think before they bring kids into the world.

    15. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MO

      'Cause it's hard. It's hard in some really obvious reasons, and it's hard in some ways that you will never understand until that, that little person is, is breathing in this world, how they will make you feel. You will love nothing more. So i- I understand it, but that's why we get a lot of it wrong, 'cause we're operating out of fear sometimes.

    17. JS

      We've talked a lot about the differences in how you were parented, how things have changed, and I feel like one of the biggest talking points of today for parents and children is therapy. Like, therapy seems to be a conversation that's opened up that a previous generation either didn't have access to, didn't believe in, couldn't afford, didn't value, which some of those challenges still exist today with affordability and accessibility. But what have been your personal journeys with therapy as, as a form of working on your own self and then, of course, your children as well?

    18. CR

      I would say I was your typical guy-

    19. MO

      [laughs]

    20. CR

      ... when it came to therapy, and typical guy of color because I wasn't exposed to therapy until I got to college and I found out that kids my age were going to therapy.

    21. MO

      [laughs]

    22. CR

      And I was like, "Well, what, what is going on in that, that head?" Because I didn't understand it. Now you jump ahead into... In my first marriage, that was when it, when it hit. When it started to have trouble, we would go to couples therapy, and then I would go to therapy on my own, and I realized that my last statement about not knowing what therapy was and not doing it, I just did it in a different way.

    23. JS

      Mm.

    24. CR

      My therapy was the barbershop. It wasn't church for me 'cause I wasn't a churchgoer, but for some people it's church. But for me, it is fellowship ti- with my good friends that I can tell stuff to.

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. CR

      But I wasn't a real therapy guy until I had trouble in my first marriage. But I'm happy to say that my two older children are regular therapy goers, and it just warms my heart because it wasn't like I said, "You know, you guys should go to therapy." They just kinda did it on themselves. So I, I am a big believer in it. A- a- and I'm sure people have used this analogy before, but we tune up just about everything in our lives. You know? We tune up our cars, we tune up our electronics, but we don't tune up our minds and our, our emotions, and, and we should. And I have to say that you got into therapy e- I think before I did.

    27. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    28. CR

      And that kinda opened my eyes to it, too, even before I was having trouble in my marriage.

    29. MO

      Mm.

    30. CR

      So you, you can share-

  19. 1:11:08 – 1:16:10

    Are You Doing Enough?

    1. MO

      IMO, because I hope that maybe for the people who are a little bit skeptical-

    2. CR

      Mm-hmm

    3. MO

      ... of it, that these forums become the place where they start at least getting some ideas, you know, and thinking, "Wow, I never thought of it that way, or never saw it that way." And maybe they'll never go to therapy, but they come here for 90 minutes, and they, you know, they find some answers for themselves.

    4. CR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MO

      I firmly believe in it.

    6. JS

      Yeah. I love what you were saying about needing them at transitions.

    7. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JS

      When we're shape-shifting and molding, and it's almost like ever since someone graduates if they went to college, it's like from that point on, you just- ... left to figure it out.

    9. CR

      Yeah.

    10. JS

      And it's almost like there were these markers, like when you went from elementary school to high school to college, there were markers, and there were transitions, and there were summers in between where you knew what was coming next. And then you become an adult, and then now there's not really the mar- well, there are the markers of get married, you have kids, you get to a career success or whatever it is, the kids leave, as you said, but there's no real transitionary summers anymore. [laughs] There's not, not everyone's talking to you about, "Hey, what's going on?" And, and also there's less, there's less formal training for those transitions that are so emotionally tough, uh, because you're, you're almost grieving an identity you had, but then knowing there's a new version that exists, and that push and pull of do I stay or do I go in, in all of areas of your life. And I wonder, Michelle, from your perspective, and then of course from yours as well, Craig, like, and, and you mentioned there guilt. Like, I was like, what was the, what is the guilt that you feel you've, you're having to learn to let go of? Or in the beautiful upbringing you had, like, what were the things that you're like, "But these are certain ideas that aren't serving us anymore or aren't helping?"

    11. MO

      To whom much is given, much is expected.

    12. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MO

      I feel incredibly blessed in this life, you know, and it's almost like, uh, knocking on wood. It's like, let me never take it for granted. Let me always find ways of giving back. And so the guilt comes from am I doing enough, you know, which is a, a form of am I enough, right?

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MO

      That's the guilt of feeling, uh, should I do this next thing? Should I say yes when I say no? I mean, because there's so many requests, there's so much you can possibly do in life that you, you could never stop. And I do hold guilt to tell somebody that is asking for help or needs something to say, "I can't," or, "I don't want to" [laughs] you know? I mean, to even say those words, it's hard to, "I don't want to do that right now." [laughs] It's like unpacking that, right? So to, to say that to, for me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist, you know. I mean, my therapist is like, "What?" [laughs]

    16. CR

      [laughs]

    17. MO

      You, you, you still think you haven't done enough? And I was like, "Honestly, yeah."

    18. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MO

      So it's like, so let's unpack that, right? [laughs] Um, so yeah, that's, you know, that's probably what overachievers... We're all dealing with that in some way-

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm

    21. MO

      ... right? When's enough's enough? What, where's the bar? Who sets it? We're setting it for ourselves, and we keep setting it so incredibly high, right? At all times. And then I'm thinking about, oh, what am I modeling for my girls? It's like, at some point, you know. [laughs] I, uh, used to say this to Rosalynn Carter, you know, you, the Carters, they were giving until they were, you know, they, they couldn't walk [laughs] you know? And when I was in the White House every year, Rosalynn Carter would set up a meeting, you know, 'cause she would wanna talk through a set of issues and things she wanted to do and update me on everything. She was just, she was just s- she was, she, they were those people constantly doing. And I used to joke with her when she was in, uh, well, how old must she have been when I'm in office? That requires math. So let's say she was in her early 80s or, you know. She was an older woman who had done enough.

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MO

      And I used to joke, it's like, "If you don't stop, [laughs] because you're my bar," right? And I don't know that I wanna be coming to the White House with an agenda list when I'm in my 80s, right? But then I realized, it's like, well, that's her bar. [laughs]

    24. CR

      [laughs]

    25. MO

      That doesn't have to be my bar.

    26. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. MO

      What if my bar is different? And so n- now I'm practicing out some different bars for myself, right? Some different limits, and seeing how I really feel in those limits rather than what I think I'm supposed to do.

    28. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MO

      So, you know, that's, you know, I, it just makes me sigh just saying it, but that's how my brain works. And so sometimes

  20. 1:16:10 – 1:37:00

    How To Become A Good Parent

    1. MO

      you need help with right-sizing your thinking. [laughs]

    2. JS

      Thank you for sharing that.

    3. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JS

      Thank you for being so-

    5. MO

      Mm

    6. JS

      ... open and vulnerable because I know it takes a lot to be able to say what you're saying in therapy, to say it out loud, and I can see the emotion on your face that it's not, you know, something you're grappling with. It's real.

    7. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JS

      It's like you're working on it right now, and, and I hope that gives everyone who's listening... I know it will give everyone who's listening and watching courage to think, "Yeah, you know, like, maybe I'm setting the bars too high for myself," you know-

    9. MO

      Mm-hmm

    10. JS

      ... whatever that-

    11. MO

      Mm-hmm

    12. JS

      ... may be or a different question.

    13. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JS

      But thank you.

    15. MO

      Yeah. Sure.

    16. JS

      Craig, sorry, I'd love to-

    17. CR

      No, no, no

    18. JS

      ... same question.

    19. CR

      I, uh, it, that-

    20. JS

      Yeah

    21. CR

      ... that's, uh, uh, I, I actually thought Misha was gonna touch on this a little earlier.

    22. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CR

      But our mom, when, and, and you've been so gracious to say nice things about us and our success and-

    24. MO

      Mm-hmm

    25. CR

      ... all the wonderful things that, that, that we've been able to do. Marian Robinson, our mom, used to say, "My kids aren't any different from the kids they grew up with," and she is absolutely right.

    26. MO

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CR

      She would say, "I was fortunate enough not to have to go to work," and we encouraged them to work hard. They, they never said you had to get straight As. They just said, "Work hard, have high self-esteem, you know, treat people nicely." Uh, but she always bragged on the kids who we grew up with and kids around the globe.

    28. MO

      Yeah. She would say, "There are a million Michelle-

    29. CR

      Michelle and Craigs

    30. MO

      ... Craig and Baracks in the world."

Episode duration: 1:26:01

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