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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

NAOMI OSAKA REVEALS the Message Serena Williams Sent Her After their US Open Final Match!

Have you ever felt like losing meant your life was over? When did you realize it’s okay to fail? Today, Jay sits down with four-time Grand Slam champion Naomi Osaka to explore her journey beyond the tennis court. Naomi, known for her powerful game and quiet resilience, opens up about the challenges of fame, the weight of expectations, and how motherhood has reshaped her outlook on life. Jay and Naomi discuss the pressure of being a high-performance athlete, the loneliness that can accompany success, and the struggles of maintaining a sense of self in an industry that often reduces people to their achievements. Naomi candidly describes how, for years, her self-worth was tied to her ranking and performance, but becoming a mother has given her a new perspective—one that prioritizes joy, presence, and growth over perfection. The conversation also dives into Naomi’s evolving relationship with competition. While she once measured her success by titles and trophies, she now finds fulfillment in self-discovery and personal progress. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Detach Your Self-Worth from Achievements How to Cope with External Expectations and Criticism How to Use Journaling for Self-Reflection and Growth How to Prioritize Mental Health in High-Pressure Situations How to Learn from Setbacks Without Letting Them Define You Success is not just about winning; it’s about growing, learning, and showing up for yourself every day. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here. Join Jay for his first ever, On Purpose Live Tour! Tickets are on sale now. Hope to see you there! What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:47 Open Discussions About Mental Health 03:10 Impulsiveness as an Athlete 05:28 Moving From Japan to USA 08:02 Lifelong Training and Career 10:13 Incorporating Culture in Fashion 12:38 Discipline and Diet 13:53 Indulging in Guilty Pleasures 16:48 Passing Time While Having Impulsive Tendencies 18:46 Winning the First Grand Slam 21:09 Dealing with Public Hate 22:39 A Long-Time Serena Williams Fan 25:16 Experiencing Motherhood 27:39 The Different Facets of Life 29:07 The Power of Journaling 31:55 Loving the Life You're Living 34:57 The Habit of Comparing Yourself to Others 36:27 Stop Chasing Your Old Self 38:21 Motherhood Realizations 39:46 Rigorous Training After Giving Birth 41:18 Setting Boundaries During PressCon 43:01 No One Can Predict Someone's Path 45:21 Finding Calmness Through Meditation 47:44 Setting New Goals 50:25 Shamed for Taking a Break 54:17 Getting Support from Fellow Athletes 55:52 Friendships and Camaraderie 57:08 Mentored by Kobe Bryant 59:31 The Haitian Way of Giving 01:00:58 Who Are You Spending Your Time With the Most? 01:04:29 Loving Yourself and How You Look 01:05:29 Game Day Routine 01:07:33 You're Never Alone 01:09:04 Fear of Being Forgotten 01:12:40 Naomi on Final Five Episode Resources: https://www.instagram.com/jayshetty https://www.facebook.com/jayshetty/ https://x.com/jayshetty https://www.linkedin.com/in/shettyjay/ https://www.youtube.com/@JayShettyPodcast http://jayshetty.me

Naomi OsakaguestJay Shettyhost
Aug 1, 20251h 15mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:47

    Intro

    1. NO

      What I was dealing with at the time, feeling ashamed, going against everything an athlete stood for. After I pulled out of the French Open, I flew back home to LA, and I just stayed in my house. I didn't wanna see the outside world.

    2. JS

      Ranked as number one in the world in women's singles. A four-time Grand Slam tennis champ, Naomi Osaka. Your dad wanted to train you because he was reading about Richard Williams and what he'd done with the Williams sisters. How aware were you of that when you were growing up?

    3. NO

      Me and my sister and my dad on a tennis court at least eight hours during the day.

    4. JS

      Every day?

    5. NO

      Yeah. I began to think to myself, like, "It would be very weird if I didn't make it."

    6. JS

      Your vulnerable sharing of your mental health journey, what does it feel like looking back on that?

    7. NO

      Honestly, I'm a little bit embarrassed on how I went about it.

    8. JS

      What was the process like going from giving birth to then getting back on the court?

    9. NO

      Maybe seven to 10 days, I started training again.

    10. JS

      Wow.

    11. NO

      My whole identity as I knew it was being a tennis player. I would value what my value was as a person on whether I won or lost.

    12. JS

      What was the feeling like when you won your first Grand Slam?

    13. NO

      When I was growing up, I had dreams of playing Serena. In my first Grand Slam final, it felt like a dream came true. I was just reading comments of people saying that I didn't deserve to win.

    14. JS

      The number one health and wellness podcast.

    15. NO

      Jay Shetty.

    16. JS

      Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] Naomi, it's wonderful to have you here.

    17. NO

      Thank you. It's nice to be here.

    18. JS

      I really meant it. I've been wanting to talk to you for

  2. 1:47 – 3:10

    Open Discussions About Mental Health

    1. JS

      so long. I thought your open sharing and vulnerable sharing of your mental health journey was so brave and courageous. What does it feel like looking back on that three years now?

    2. NO

      [sighs] Honestly, I'm a little bit embarrassed on how I went about it, but I'm really glad that I did open up. It created a pathway for more discussions to be had, and I also feel like athletes were seen as more than just, I guess, stone cold in a way, so.

    3. JS

      Yeah. Why, why embarrassed though now?

    4. NO

      I don't know. Like, I, I just... Since I go on things, like, I go about things on a whim a little bit, I, I sometimes make decisions without fully thinking them through all the way. Because it's such an emotional thing, and when I was in that moment, like, I was living it, and I think everyone could see that I was clearly living it, but I feel like maybe I could have been a little bit better with my words or how I presented myself.

    5. JS

      Well, I think it came across really beautifully. And for whatever it's worth, I felt that it really gave so many more athletes the permission to also open up, to also share how they were feeling. And you're so right, I think it humanized a lot of athletes that are often just seen as these high-performing beings, and then you don't realize that they have a conversation in their mind.

  3. 3:10 – 5:28

    Impulsiveness as an Athlete

    1. JS

      You just said there and you were saying earlier that sometimes you do think on a whim or sometimes you wing it. Where does that come from? Is that from your childhood? Did that start early?

    2. NO

      Maybe it's a personality thing, but, um, [laughs] people don't know I'm, I'm very impulsive actually. Um, and I'm just very quick to, like, want to get things done. So yeah, I do think it's a childhood trait, and, uh, [laughs] maybe my mom can tell me more stories about that. I heard her tell a story about how when we were younger, me and my sister, she took us to a fountain, and all of a sudden I just jumped in the fountain.

    3. JS

      [laughs]

    4. NO

      So there's probably a bunch more stories like that that she could tell me.

    5. JS

      Yeah. And where has that trait kind of got you in trouble, and when has it actually been a really helpful trait?

    6. NO

      The moments that it's gotten me in trouble, people [laughs] know about those moments. But I think in times that it's really helped, I feel it's helped a lot on the tennis court just because I often do put a little bit of pressure on myself to be, I guess, flashy in a way. Like, I want to make it entertaining for the people that watch. And, um, sometimes in my mind I have this image of Monfils. He's, like, one of my favorite tennis players. And I think, you know, maybe I should do something like that. Some of those shots work, and some of them don't, but I think it's fun to try regardless.

    7. JS

      Yeah, definitely. It's so, it's so interesting hearing about athletes speaking about being impulsive and being, you know, because I feel like so much of the sport to us as outsiders looks so strategic and intentional and focused. How do you balance that creativity and impulsiveness with more focus and planning and intentionality?

    8. NO

      It's something that I've just learned throughout playing the sport. I've been playing since I was three, so, um, it's kind of ingrained in me, and I feel like every tennis player has their own, I guess, signature or blueprint or formula that they just grew up with. And, um, some people you see it a lot. Like, um, you can kinda tell that they're the creative people, like Ons Jabeur. And then some other people you can just tell that they're focused on, you know, the, the plays that, um, will lead them to victory. So I find myself being kind of a half-and-half person.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

  4. 5:28 – 8:02

    Moving From Japan to USA

    1. JS

      You moved from Japan to America when you were four years old.

    2. NO

      Three.

    3. JS

      Three. Okay. What, if anything, do you remember from that time?

    4. NO

      [laughs] Um, I remember my sister kicking me in the head. [laughs]

    5. JS

      Really?

    6. NO

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      Wow, that's impressive.

    8. NO

      And I also remember going to the park a lot. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with Japanese food, but my mom used to get us nikuman. Um, so they're like steamed buns. And yeah, just, [laughs] just having a, a fun time in Japan as a kid.

    9. JS

      And then what was it like coming to America at that time and settling in? Does that feel like a natural transition, or were there certain-... learnings that you had to have

    10. NO

      From my memories, like it was pretty easy. Um, I don't think I was too attached to Japan. I wasn't too thrilled to be in America either, but it's, it's just the life that I had. I heard that my sister had a tougher time because she was older and, you know, she only spoke Japanese. So at school, [laughs] and this is a funny story, which it kind of makes me a little mad now, but, um, it's just something that happened. Um, apparently me and my sister, we only spoke Japanese, and my teacher told my mom to stop speaking to us in Japanese, so that's kinda how I, I forgot [laughs] most of it. So yeah.

    11. JS

      Oh, wow. So you don't speak Japanese anymore?

    12. NO

      I do, but, like, to people I'm comfortable with.

    13. JS

      Right.

    14. NO

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      Right. So wait, your teacher told your mom not to talk to you and your sister in Japanese-

    16. NO

      Yes

    17. JS

      ... so that you'd get more comfortable with English. And why, why does that make you mad now?

    18. NO

      I feel like being bilingual is such a, a good trait. And also we went to a English school, like American, so they spoke English there anyway, so we would have eventually gotten to learn how to speak English.

    19. JS

      Yeah. And language is such a beautiful way to preserve culture.

    20. NO

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      And it preserves an intimacy as well. Like you said, the people you're close to, you'll still speak in Japanese, and I feel like there's an intimacy when you're speaking your own language with someone, right?

    22. NO

      Yeah, I also feel like there's a way to convey things that sometimes I can't convey it in English, so I have to say it in Japanese, and there's like a fluctuation or something like that that, um, it can't be translated.

    23. JS

      Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like that way about Hindi.

    24. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JS

      So Hindi's obviously the national language of India, and I feel like there are so many beautiful, poetic words in Hindi that if I try and say them in English, they just sound basic.

    26. NO

      Yeah.

    27. JS

      But in Hindi, they're really spectacular, so no, I, I, I can relate to

  5. 8:02 – 10:13

    Lifelong Training and Career

    1. JS

      that. Your dad, at least from what I read, your dad wanted to train you because he was reading about Richard Williams and what he'd done with the Williams sisters, and I think at one point he even said that, "I had a blueprint, I knew what I needed to do, and I know I had to follow it." What was it like living that blueprint and with your dad? How aware were you of that when you were growing up?

    2. NO

      [laughs] I heard of that story later on also. Um, but yeah, I think living in that blueprint was something that I just grew used to. Um, it was kinda just me and my sister and my dad on a tennis court for, like, at least eight hours during the day.

    3. JS

      Every day?

    4. NO

      Yeah. Um, so it was, it was kinda one of those things where I began to think to myself, like, it would be very weird if I didn't make it, and I had no choice to because this was, you know, this was my life, and, um, I was just so dedicated towards it. But [laughs] I find it really funny that he said that there is a exact blueprint.

    5. JS

      Have you ever asked him about, any questions about that time when he was training you for eight hours a day and what was going through his mind and what were his emotions?

    6. NO

      [laughs] My dad's kind of a stoic guy, so he doesn't really talk as often, and when he does, it's, like, to randomly crack a joke. The family all had a dream, and we all were trying our best to achieve it, and, um, it's kinda interesting to look back on it because it wasn't that long ago.

    7. JS

      Did you ever watch King Richard with your family?

    8. NO

      I watched it by myself on the plane.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. NO

      Um, and I thought it was really fascinating because it did feel a little familiar in some parts. Um, and I think it's just, like, the goal of the whole family just trying their best, and it, it was really touching for me.

    11. JS

      Mm. Was it something that really brought you all closer together when you were young?

    12. NO

      Yeah, I think, you know, but my family wasn't that big. It was just me and my sister and my mom and my dad. And, um, growing up, we lived in New York, so I was around my grandma and my cousins at the time. But then we moved to Florida when I was, like, eight or so, um, and then we didn't have any family members. I would definitely say we were extremely close.

    13. JS

      Mm. Apart

  6. 10:13 – 12:38

    Incorporating Culture in Fashion

    1. JS

      from your amazing fashion-

    2. NO

      [laughs]

    3. JS

      ... how did, uh, Japanese culture and Haitian culture, how has it influenced and inspired you from a mindset perspective or even from a lifestyle perspective? What are the parts of it that still live and breathe in your life today?

    4. NO

      It's interesting to be asked questions like that because I feel like it's so hard to explain, but I think one of the biggest things that people may not know about, um, Haiti or Haitian culture, I don't even know if it's a culture or just everyone's personality is like that, but they'll give even though they have nothing to give.

    5. JS

      Wow.

    6. NO

      I don't wanna say it's one of my favorite parts, but it's one of the most touching parts. Um, whenever I go to Haiti, like, everyone's just so excited to interact, um, and, you know [laughs] be as hospitable as possible and, um, just show their love and appreciation for, um, people coming to Haiti and people that love Haiti. So I try to incorporate that in my own way, in, in my own personality. Um, and then of course for the Japanese side, I think this one's gonna be a little funny, but-

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. NO

      ... I think Japan's very, like, strict. Not strict, but, like, very prompt.

    9. JS

      Uh-huh.

    10. NO

      And I think one of the funniest things, um, was that one, um, one of my trainers said that, "You know, it's funny that you go to different countries and the bus time is, like, 10:00, and the bus can leave at 10:03, but in Japan when it's at 10:00, it leaves at 10:00."

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. NO

      So, um, yeah, trying to be very, um, on task.

    13. JS

      Mm. Yeah, no, I, I love learning about different cultures or, as you said, communities, traits, and I mean, that, what you just said about giving even when you don't have something to give, I mean, that's really powerful and really beautiful and, and, and it's tough as well. It's hard as well when, when someone's actually having to go through that. And that generosityIt's so interesting, isn't it? Like, I always think we think when I have more, then I'll give more.

    14. NO

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      And actually, it's almost like, no, if I can give what I have today, then, then I'll continue to give. And I remember being exposed to that culture in India as well, and I think Asian and South Asian places definitely, I- places I visited, have some of that culture. And, and the orderly and promptness and the discipline definitely makes sense. So you've got that perfect yin and yang of being impulsive and disciplined.

    16. NO

      [laughs]

    17. JS

      What's the

  7. 12:38 – 13:53

    Discipline and Diet

    1. JS

      most disciplined thing you do every day right now?

    2. NO

      This is gonna sound a little unhinged. Um-

    3. JS

      [laughs]

    4. NO

      Not eating rice, which is really difficult for me because-

    5. JS

      Explain

    6. NO

      ... I just feel like as a Asian and Caribbean person, like, rice is such a staple in both foods and both cultures. Um, but I'm trying to be really strict with myself and really disciplined, and [laughs] not eating any rice is definitely the most disciplined thing that I have to do right now.

    7. JS

      I love that. Is rice usually like a daily, like usually like a daily staple?

    8. NO

      Yeah. You know, like a couple spoonfuls here and there.

    9. JS

      Yeah. So now no rice. How long has it been?

    10. NO

      It's honestly been a couple of weeks, so I'm hoping to keep this up until Australia.

    11. JS

      [laughs] That's amazing. That, that's awesome. I kn- I know what that feels like when you're, like, trying to swear off... My, my big thing's sugar.

    12. NO

      Mm. Yeah.

    13. JS

      I'm just, like, constantly trying to stay off sugar, and it's so hard 'cause I've, I've been addicted to sugar in the past. And so-

    14. NO

      Oh, so you have a sweet tooth?

    15. JS

      I have a big sweet tooth.

    16. NO

      [laughs]

    17. JS

      Like, you, you put anything with chocolate in front of me-

    18. NO

      Mm

    19. JS

      ... and it will be devoured. It's like my favorite thing in the world. But I've, I've been building a healthier relationship up with sugar. It's, it's been pretty tough, but I've got there as well.

  8. 13:53 – 16:48

    Indulging in Guilty Pleasures

    1. JS

      And what about the other side? What's something that you kind of get spontaneously the urge to do right now? What are some of the more impulsive things you end up doing right now?

    2. NO

      One of my favorite things to do is, like, go for a drive at nighttime. Sometimes when I do that, people like to race, so sometimes I may or may not potentially end up racing them as well.

    3. JS

      [laughs] That's brilliant.

    4. NO

      I don't know. It's kind of one of my guilty pleasures because I feel like you, you get to see a crowd of people that you don't typically see, especially on the LA highways. Yeah, I would say that's probably one of the last impulsive things I've done.

    5. JS

      That is, that is brilliant. I'm so glad I asked the question. Do you have a really cool car as well?

    6. NO

      Potentially.

    7. JS

      [laughs] I love that. I, I'm the person who avoids the race.

    8. NO

      Ah.

    9. JS

      So I used to be like that in my teenage years. I loved it. If someone wanted to race me... And it's so funny 'cause I have a much faster car today than I did when I was a teenager. But I remember when I was a teenager, I would race anyone, even if I, I was driving my little Vauxhall Corsa, which is, like, if I showed you a picture of the car later on, you'd laugh. It's, like, this really old model. I'd race anyone. I don't care what they were driving.

    10. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JS

      Now I avoid the race. Do you, do you usually win?

    12. NO

      Uh, I, I tell myself I have no choice. [laughs]

    13. JS

      [laughs]

    14. NO

      So, um, honestly, though, I do feel you on, like, avoiding the race now because I, I think as I've gotten older, I've become a lot more safe. Like, for example, when I was young, turbulence on airplanes used to excite me. I, I used to think of them as, like, free roller coaster rides.

    15. JS

      [laughs]

    16. NO

      But now I do get a little worried sometimes because I think of my daughter and, um, all the things that I wanna do with her when she grows up. So yeah, when people start driving past a certain level of crazy, then I'm like, "Okay. You, you got it"

    17. JS

      [laughs] Do these people know that they're racing against Naomi Osaka, or no, your, like, tinted windows, they can't tell who they're racing?

    18. NO

      My windows are very, very tinted. [laughs]

    19. JS

      [laughs] So they have no idea that they just got beat by-

    20. NO

      They wouldn't be able to see me. They would see the dust. So... [laughs]

    21. JS

      Yeah. [laughs] You're like, you're like, "They're not even close."

    22. NO

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      I love that. That's, that's so funny.

    24. NO

      When I began to become a little bit more known, more and more people entered those press conferences, and I felt like they weren't treating me like I was a human. Um, it was more like, "Let's ask her a question to get this, like, one-liner or this article grab." So that's kind of where I started to become a little bit fearful. I think people can see that I became a little bit more closed off. I always used to compare myself to people, and, um, I think especially being a tennis player, you count titles, you count wins, and you kind of size yourself up against other people your age or in your division. No one can ever predict someone else's path. I just realize, like, some people will understand that, and some people won't, and it's not my job to convince, um, people of that.

    25. JS

      It's amazing

  9. 16:48 – 18:46

    Passing Time While Having Impulsive Tendencies

    1. JS

      how there, there's certain things that we all need as an outlet and to be impulsive about and just kind of let go. And do you think that when you were working up to win, you know, the first US Open that you did at, like, 20 years old, was your life very different then? Like, could you have impulse, or was the preparation for that so strategic and focused and developed? What was that like?

    2. NO

      Every day kind of looked the exact same-

    3. JS

      Mm

    4. NO

      ... to the point where I could predict where I'm gonna be at a certain minute.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. NO

      So in that regard, my life has definitely changed a lot. Preparation is pretty much the same. The will to win is the same. Um, and I would think the impulses are also the same. The outlets are just different.

    7. JS

      Oh, interesting.

    8. NO

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      How did you express your impulses at that time? How did they come through, and how were they alive?

    10. NO

      I used to be chronically online. [laughs]

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. NO

      So, um, I used to play a lot of video games. Um, I used to read a lot of manga or fake online shops, so I would put things in my cart and just never buy them. [laughs]

    13. JS

      Really?

    14. NO

      And I would say, yeah, I guess the impulse would be to, like, buy them. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, now-Obviously I don't play games as much because I don't have that much time for it, but yeah.

    15. JS

      How does that work when you fill your cart up with stuff and then don't buy it? Like, walk me through that.

    16. NO

      It's like you go into a mall and you're window shopping.

    17. JS

      Yeah, right, right.

    18. NO

      So I find it funny sometimes because I, I like to go to stores that have, like, vintage or s- um, like, one of one items, and I get so mad when people buy [laughs] what's in my cart. I'm like, "Wow, how dare you?" Um-

    19. JS

      [laughs] But you weren't gonna buy it anyway.

    20. NO

      No, but it's nice to know it's there-

    21. JS

      [laughs]

    22. NO

      ... in case I do have an impulse.

    23. JS

      Yeah, I love

  10. 18:46 – 21:09

    Winning the First Grand Slam

    1. JS

      that. What, what was the feeling like when you won your first Grand Slam at the US Open such a young age? Like, what was that feeling like? I think I even have this picture. Like, when you see that, can you see that or is it, are you squinting that?

    2. NO

      I'm squinting, but I can-

    3. JS

      Yeah, yeah, no, you're squinting

    4. NO

      ... I can tell.

    5. JS

      But you know which picture, yeah.

    6. NO

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      What, what was that feeling like?

    8. NO

      Um, you know, um, [laughs] I think when I was growing up I had dreams of playing Serena in a g- in my first Grand Slam final, if even a Grand Slam final, so it, it felt like a dream came true. But at the same time, like, all the circumstances surrounding that was not a dream come true, and it was-

    9. JS

      In what sense?

    10. NO

      I don't know. Like, some people didn't think it was, like, a clean victory, and I felt like I had to constantly prove people wrong. And, you know, that situation was a little unfortunate, um, but I'm glad I won the Australian Open right after that. But in that moment it was a very, very strange mixture of emotions.

    11. JS

      Mm. Yeah, it's, it's so hard when... What was it? It was happening recently, actually. I don't know if you follow soccer at all.

    12. NO

      Mm.

    13. JS

      And I'm a big soccer fan, and, uh, Pep Guardiola, who's the manager of Manchester City, and he's probably one of the best managers of all time in the sport of soccer internationally-

    14. NO

      Mm

    15. JS

      ... and he's on his worst run ever, so he's just lost seven games in a row, and he's never done that in his entire career. In his whole career he's never lost more than, I think, two games in a row.

    16. NO

      Oh, wow.

    17. JS

      This is the first time his team, he's the manager, has lost seven games in a row. And the opposition on the weekend, literally just this weekend that just went by, they were shouting, "You're gonna get sacked in the morning"

    18. NO

      Ooh.

    19. JS

      And so, you know, and he was reacting to that. He's, he's truly, like, he's in the top two discussion of the best coaches in soccer of all time, and he was receiving that treatment. And it's really interesting because you watch even someone like, again, I'm using soccer examples because that's a sport I know well, but I mean, even Novak, who, you know, is a good friend, he's been on the show, like, the amount of stress that he receives from the fans and the audience as well, like, he hasn't had the easiest road.

  11. 21:09 – 22:39

    Dealing with Public Hate

    1. JS

      What did you turn to in that moment? Because you've just won something, but there's all that feeling. How do you kind of reconcile that? And now when you're looking back, how have you kind of processed that?

    2. NO

      You know what's funny is if you asked me this, like, three years ago, I definitely would have started crying. [laughs]

    3. JS

      Oh, wow.

    4. NO

      For a very long time I didn't process it because I didn't want to. Just I'm the type of person that I'll keep my head down and just keep working hard and, you know, hopefully I'll get to where I want to be. But for that being the first Grand Slam and that kind of being the introduction into, like, the world, um, for non-tennis fans, it was definitely really difficult for me and I think no amount of media training [laughs] could have pro- um, like, processed me for that.

    5. JS

      Why would you have cried three years ago?

    6. NO

      I just have this very vivid memory of winning, going back to my hotel, and the US Open is special because, um, you kind of get back to your hotel if you have a night match at, like, 1:00 AM or something like that.

    7. JS

      It's crazy.

    8. NO

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      I've been, yeah.

    10. NO

      Yeah, doing treatment, um, because I was going to go play a tournament in Tokyo right after that, and I was just reading comments of people saying that I didn't deserve to win or, like, I didn't win fairly. And I don't know, it just, it just really sucked.

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. NO

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      Yeah, no, that's really fair. I mean, I don't think that would ever be a good feeling.

    14. NO

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      It's like

  12. 22:39 – 25:16

    A Long-Time Serena Williams Fan

    1. JS

      the worst. Did you speak to Serena after that as well?

    2. NO

      Yeah, she was actually really kind and sent me a message. Um, and I sent her a message back, but I always get so starstruck by her. Like, I wrote my third grade report [laughs] on her.

    3. JS

      Wow.

    4. NO

      I just remember getting the message and being like, "No way." Um, and then re- sending a response and immediately putting it on mute because I just couldn't handle. [laughs]

    5. JS

      [laughs] What was the report about?

    6. NO

      I think the school was asking, like, "Who's your role model and why is, um, the person your role model?" and stuff like that.

    7. JS

      What, what did you write? Do you remember?

    8. NO

      I, I mean, I think I wrote, like, "My role model is Serena," and then I had, like, cut out, like, a little printed photo of her, um, "Because she's the greatest tennis player of all time, um, and she," you know, "she's, like, an amazing role model figure for me," and stuff like that.

    9. JS

      Oh, I love that. And then did you guys, have you guys met since then and spoken since then as well, like one-to-one?

    10. NO

      Uh, [laughs] we've met since then. We've also played since then, so.

    11. JS

      Yeah. What was that like playing her again and then meeting her again after that?

    12. NO

      I think I've played her, like, two or three times after that, and the most recent time was, like, the second Australian Open that I won. But prior to the Australian Open, um, we were having, like, the COVID-Lockdown in Australia, so, um, I was a part of the same group she was, and her daughter was there. And, um, I was still super starstruck. I think I'll always be starstruck by her, but she asked me if I could take a photo with her daughter, and I felt so honored. I was like, "Wow, of course I will."

    13. JS

      That's awesome. Wow, what a special feeling. I love that. For your hero to then be asking you to take a picture with their daughter, that's pretty epic.

    14. NO

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      How does that feel to, to young Naomi?

    16. NO

      Very unbelievable, but also now after having my daughter, I realize how important it is to have, um, good role models, and I'm, I don't know, I'm glad that I potentially am one to somebody.

    17. JS

      Yeah. I think, I, I think you are f- to, to a lot of people. I, I think it's the best feeling in the world when your heroes live up to-

    18. NO

      Your expectations. Yeah

    19. JS

      ... the versions of them you had in your minds. I feel like I've been so fortunate to meet so many of my heroes, and, you know, they've, they've lived up to it, and I feel like I'm always excited to meet my heroes now. I know that old cliché of never meet your heroes. Um, I'm not sure. I think meeting some of them has been one of the best experiences, some of the best experiences of my life at least. Sounds like yours too.

  13. 25:16 – 27:39

    Experiencing Motherhood

    1. JS

      How, how has your life changed for you from the inside becoming a mother? And, you know, like you said, just living this disciplined, focused, every day kinda looks like the same, building up to win, you know, four Grand Slams, and now, you know, living a very different life. I'm guessing every day is definitely not the same. Like, what's changed for you? How has that affected your identity and even self-perception?

    2. NO

      Becoming a mother has definitely changed my life a lot. Um, internally I feel I've become a lot more patient, um, and also in a weird way more carefree. I think there's a lot of things that, um, used to bother me in the past or I, I used to hold onto, and now I, I just kinda see them as, I don't know, pointless.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. NO

      Maybe pointless is a little bit too big of a word, but, um-

    5. JS

      Like what?

    6. NO

      Ha, you always put me on the spot, huh?

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. NO

      Um-

    9. JS

      You said you like winging it, so [laughs] I'm giving you lots of... Every time I ask you one of these questions, you give an amazing answer, so I'm like-

    10. NO

      [laughs] I'm trying.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. NO

      I'm racking my brain.

    13. JS

      Just trying to play tennis with you right now.

    14. NO

      [laughs]

    15. JS

      It's like, the, the harder shot I give you, the better you give it back, so.

    16. NO

      Ah, I think you won this rally. [laughs]

    17. JS

      [laughs]

    18. NO

      Um-

    19. JS

      I'll take that. I'll take it

    20. NO

      ... one of the biggest things for me was that my whole identity as I knew it was being a tennis player, so I would, I guess, value my, my life or what my value was as a person on whether I won or lost. And now, um, I don't know, I'm not saying being a mother is my entire being, but I see that there's so much more to life, and there's so much that I'm able to, I guess, give to another person in regards to how they feel. Like my daughter, she smiles so much when I'm around her, and it just makes my day. So I no longer really feel like, you know, my life is over if I lose a tennis match or something like that.

    21. JS

      It's actually quite profound to hear that because I can imagine that when you work that hard at something and you become as good as you are at that thing, it becomes really d- natural for you to put all your self-worth and all your self-esteem into it.

    22. NO

      Mm.

    23. JS

      And then now your whole life revolves around it, the way people speak to you, the way people introduce you, the way... You know, every conversation becomes about that.

    24. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JS

      How have

  14. 27:39 – 29:07

    The Different Facets of Life

    1. JS

      you detached from, like, being ranked number one and then being like, "Well, now my life is moving"? Like, has that been a part of that? How do you, how do you detach and disconnect from that kind of strong identity and how it was made?

    2. NO

      I think it's been a series of learning events. Um, and I can't necessarily name to you what happened-

    3. JS

      Mm

    4. NO

      ... because in some ways I feel like I just woke up one day and this clicked, or I just woke up another day and another thought clicked. I feel like I've been really fortunate to have, um, I guess, people that care about me, and they've kind of reinforced the idea that, you know, this isn't the, like, main factor of your life. Yes, this has helped you, like, be in positions like sitting here right now talking to you, but, um, it's not your entire self-worth.

    5. JS

      Yeah. I think that's such a powerful message, and I hope everyone hears that, you know, loud and clear. I think it's so easy... I- You're reminding me of an episode we did with Kevin Hart.

    6. NO

      Mm.

    7. JS

      And Kevin was talking about how at one point he just thought he was, like, unstoppable and unbeatable, and it led to him making so many bad decisions. And he was talking about how the best thing he did was to, not in these words, but paraphrasing, like embracing his own insignificance, like recognizing that one day he wouldn't be who he is-

    8. NO

      Mm

    9. JS

      ... and that that would be okay, too. And it's, it's so

  15. 29:07 – 31:55

    The Power of Journaling

    1. JS

      interesting because I feel like we're all trying to get to that place, that we're all trying to get to this place of, like, I'm already enough and I'm okay. And you, I feel like writing and journaling is such a big part of who you are. Like, even hearing about your school report and then the post you put up like three days ago. And when I read that, I just thought, "Wow, s- you're so reflective. You're so thoughtful." Like, is that a habit that you've had? Obviously, that was something you shared publicly, but just that habit of being able to explain your thoughts and connect them in that way, is that something you do often? Is that a habit you've built over time?

    2. NO

      I think it started w- when I was a early teenager maybe. Um-And ironically, I, I used to hate writing because I remember [laughs] my English teachers kind of failing me almost because my grammar was always incorrect. So I don't know. I, I used to try to avoid things that I knew I wasn't good at, and writing was one of them. But I think one day I wanted to get my words out, and I'm not- honestly not the greatest speaker. I, I kinda title myself that, so I wanted to get my words out in the way that I wanted to convey myself, and writing was the easiest tool for that. So, um, it just kind of built up over the years.

    3. JS

      Do you write daily? Is journaling, like, a daily practice?

    4. NO

      Yeah. I try to write daily. I try to write my thoughts, what I feel or what I'm grateful for or what I've learned this day.

    5. JS

      Wow. Did you jour- do you journal in the morning or the evening? So have you already journaled today or?

    6. NO

      It kind of changes, like, depending on my mood, depending if I'm running out the door and I'm [laughs] late for practice.

    7. JS

      Was what you shared three days ago part of your journaling practice? And then how do you decide when you write something whether to share it publicly or whether to hold it in for yourself?

    8. NO

      So what I wrote three days ago was, like, a little snippet of a book that I'm writing, um, that [laughs] I don't even know if I am doing a disservice to books by calling it a book, but I would say that it's, it's kind of my ramblings. Um, I tend to think things through in my own head a lot, um, and it's definitely much clearer for me if I write it down and see it. And, I don't know, I think the way I decide to post it publicly or share it publicly is if I feel internally it would help someone.

    9. JS

      Mm. You should definitely write that book. It, it definitely, uh... I found it to, to be very introspective and... But at the same time, when you sometimes read someone's journal entry, it only makes sense to them, but it made sense to me too. And so I think being able to relate to it in that way is what made it a dialogue. Like, I felt like I was invited into the conversation and invited into what you were trying to share. And

  16. 31:55 – 34:57

    Loving the Life You're Living

    1. JS

      I think the first line of what you said was-

    2. NO

      You know, the cringe is coming.

    3. JS

      [laughs] There's no cringe. Uh, so you said, "Growing up, I never really liked myself." And then you went on to say, "While that statement is bold, I also wouldn't say I disliked myself either." And I found that really interesting. I wanna hear your thoughts on that because I never thought my life was easy, but I never thought my life was hard.

    4. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JS

      I just knew it was my life. That's how I've always felt growing up. So when you said that, that's what I thought of. Why were you intrigued in sharing that, and what were you reflecting on there?

    6. NO

      Um, I honestly, I was kind of reflecting on what you just said. Like, growing up, um, we would be constantly on the tennis court, and I would watch other kids go to summer vacation or, um, [laughs] not have to shovel the snow off the court to hit tennis balls, and I would always think, "Dang," like, [laughs] "I kinda want to be someone else." But at the same time, like, I love my mom, I love my dad, I love my sister. I, I kinda like my life, you know? Um. [laughs]

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. NO

      I think it's a really weird, like, thought process, and I think especially growing up and, um, seeing tabloids, seeing pop singers, thinking, "Wow," like, "Their life must be so perfect. I, I'd rather prefer to be them than to be me right now." And then eventually getting to the point where you, like, mature and you grow up and you're so grateful for the life that you have. So, um, it was kind of accumulation of years.

    9. JS

      Yeah. Can you sing?

    10. NO

      [laughs]

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. NO

      Um, if we're doing karaoke, and it has to be a very specific song.

    13. JS

      Well, what's your karaoke song?

    14. NO

      Um, I really love Bohemian Rhapsody.

    15. JS

      Oh, wow. Okay, that's not an easy one either.

    16. NO

      [laughs]

    17. JS

      That... Okay, we're gonna have to go karaoke one time, so I can hear that.

    18. NO

      Uh, okay.

    19. JS

      Yeah.

    20. NO

      Only in Tokyo, though.

    21. JS

      Only in Tokyo? What are the karaoke places like in Tokyo?

    22. NO

      I think they're really fun. Like, um, some people take it very seriously. So I've seen videos online of people being in there for hours just practicing their, their vocal training, so. [laughs]

    23. JS

      I need a karaoke party to hear this. I, I, I feel like I'm mentally scarred from going to karaoke because I worked at a company after... I worked at a company in, what? 2013, and as part of the training, we went to Chicago, and we went to a karaoke bar. So there's a bunch of Brits in Chicago at this karaoke bar. And all the girls were doing karaoke. The guys were kind of trying to act cool. I can't sing to save my life, and none of my friends could either, so we were trying not to, you know, get too involved. And then one of our friends got up, shout-out to Ollie, who I'm not friend... I don't- I'm not in touch with him anymore. But anyway, this guy called Ollie from work turns up, and he decides to sing, uh, Hound Dog, Elvis. And he's, like, dancing with the waitress. He's, like, pulling the chair up. He's, like, doing all this stuff. And all of the boys were scarred. We were like, "We can never go-

    24. NO

      [laughs]

    25. JS

      -and do karaoke ever again," 'cause he was so good.

    26. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JS

      Uh, shout-out, Ollie, if you're listening, uh, wherever you are. You are amazing at karaoke.

  17. 34:57 – 36:27

    The Habit of Comparing Yourself to Others

    1. JS

      What, what I find so interesting about that reflection, that's where it came from, we were talking about your post, is just the way... There was one thing that you said. I wanna p- pick another thing that really, that really stood out to me. "In my mind, everyone was on a racetrack, and I had an immense fear of being lapped or falling behind." And then you say, "Strangely enough, there are still moments today where I feel like I'm behind. That thought might never truly go away, even though I know how absurd it is." Have you made peace with the idea that you don't think that thought will ever go away?

    2. NO

      Yeah. Um, that-

    3. JS

      How did you do that?

    4. NO

      I don't know. It used to bother me a lot. Like, I, I always used to compare myself to people and, um, I think especially being a tennis player, you count titles, you count wins, and you kind of size yourself up against other people your age or in your division. Um, and I'd always feel like constantly on this-... race of, like, who's better, who's going to be better, who's not doing as well, and, um, that's kinda transferred, I guess, onto me as a person. It's definitely gotten a lot better, um, but I feel like for me it's kind of on the same line as being very competitive.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. NO

      I'm a very competitive person, so I don't think I'll ever truly not [laughs] try to size myself up against other people.

  18. 36:27 – 38:21

    Stop Chasing Your Old Self

    1. JS

      Yeah, it's, it's that weird balance, isn't it? It's like how do you stay competitive and also be content? Because you don't wanna be lost being so competitive that your competitiveness becomes constant comparison.

    2. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JS

      And we always hear the old cliche of, well, compete against your old self. Do you find that to be true now that you're playing tennis again after being a mom? Like, is that something you're having to do, or do you disagree and you actually think it is still about being competitive on the court?

    4. NO

      You know what's funny is I think I spent most of this year chasing my old self or my former shadow, and, um, I don't necessarily think that's the way to go. I think, you know, you were who you were, and now you're a more beautiful, more mature version of that, and it would kinda be doing your own self a disservice to constantly compare. And I don't know, I, I think there's beauty in stepping into the present and looking, um, towards the future. So I no longer compare myself to my old version, and I, I don't know. I, I try to find myself more excited for what I could be.

    5. JS

      Mm. What does that look like sometimes when you kind of get into that? What's pulling you? What vision comes to mind?

    6. NO

      I think the vision that comes to mind isn't necessarily, like, winning as many trophies as I can, which that would be great and I, I am hopeful that that'll happen in the future. But I guess being happy to learn more, to meet new people, to, uh, learn from them, um, and just learn more about myself throughout those journeys. I find that as a tennis player I'm quite stubborn, so, um, it's very hard for me to take advice from someone that I don't trust. And in actuality, like, talking to people, I, I kind of, um, learn new things or learn new tips and tricks.

    7. JS

      Yeah.

  19. 38:21 – 39:46

    Motherhood Realizations

    1. JS

      What do you wish you knew about motherhood before you became a mother?

    2. NO

      You know, it's funny. I don't think there's really anything [laughs] that can prepare you for being a mom. Like, I read so many books and nothing really took me by surprise because I read so many books.

    3. JS

      Any good ones you recommend, or any advice that really stood true?

    4. NO

      So something you wish to know. I wish to know that, um, after a certain age the baby will just poo in the tub-

    5. JS

      [laughs]

    6. NO

      ... and you're just gonna have to accept it.

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. NO

      And [laughs] my daughter, I remember there was, there was one night she did a number two in the tub, and she looked at me, she screamed. She said, "Yucky"

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. NO

      And she walked away from it while, like, expecting me to pick it up. And I was like, "Okay, I guess that's fine. Like, we're just gonna clean this up and restart the bath." So-

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. NO

      ... yeah, I guess it, that's something I wish I knew. And then what was the other question?

    13. JS

      No, no. I was saying if there was a book or something, advice from a book that stood true and that really helped.

    14. NO

      Before you give birth, um, you could have, like, a birthing class. So I did that, um, and while I was in labor I did absolutely [laughs] none of those tips and tricks.

    15. JS

      [laughs]

    16. NO

      So, uh, yeah. I feel like also with motherhood or with pregnancy, everyone's journey is so different.

    17. JS

      Mm.

  20. 39:46 – 41:18

    Rigorous Training After Giving Birth

    1. JS

      What was the process like going from giving birth to then getting back on the court? Even back to training, not even a game, but, like, to get back to training, what did that look like for you?

    2. NO

      Ugh. Um, it was really difficult, um, just because, um, for me with my daughter while I was pregnant, um, I was constantly sick, and the only way I could alleviate that is through, like, eating stuff to, like, settle the stomach pain. Um, so I ended up gaining a lot of weight. Um, so I, I really needed to burn that off. And I'm the type of person that I'll train during pregnancy even though people, um, have half-and-half opinions on that. Um, so I, I ended up training, I would say, almost up until she was born. And then immediately after, like maybe seven to 10 days, I started training again.

    3. JS

      Wow.

    4. NO

      And I know that caused a little bit of a stir online. Um, but I don't know. I think, you know, my body's used to training because I've done that since I was super young. And, uh, [laughs] I wouldn't recommend it to, I guess, people that don't work out often. But-

    5. JS

      Mm. What was the kinda stir online?

    6. NO

      It was just people saying that I need to heal more and stuff like that. But actually, like, after I gave birth, um, I remember the nurse asking me if I needed, like, a wheelchair to the bathroom, and I had to convince her that I was fine and I could walk around by myself and stuff like that. So I just feel like bodies are very different.

    7. JS

      Mm. Yeah, it's, it's so interesting how

  21. 41:18 – 43:01

    Setting Boundaries During PressCon

    1. JS

      we still feel we can tell people what to do-

    2. NO

      Mm

    3. JS

      ... and when it's right for us to know what's right for them and, and this kind of view of, like, "Oh, well I know what's best for you right now"-

    4. NO

      Mm

    5. JS

      ... without living and walking in your shoes. You've, you've experienced a lot of that, like, kinda, like, snapback culture and that feeling of, like, people kind of... I, you know, I've seen some interviews where I just felt, I felt embarrassed for the person asking you, but I felt worse for you that someone would even ask you questions like that. And you're awesome 'cause you will just call them out, and you're not worried about, like, you know, making it known. How, how have you got good at doing that? Because I think so many people would get scared or be shy or be... But you, you know, you're okay with the fact of, like, "Hey, I don't think that's a great question to ask," you know? Which I respect.

    6. NO

      I don't know. I feel like my personality type is very honest. Like, I, I pride myself on being very straightforward and honest, and that's kind of what's gotten me in trouble quite a couple times. But I guess when we're doing a press conference, I see the people on the other side of the table as humans, and I would say that's also where the line started to get blurred for me a little bit is because I've been doing press conferences since I was like 16, 17, and then, um, obviously when I became to-- when I began to become a little bit more known, more and more people entered those press conferences, and I felt like they weren't treating me like I was a human. Um, it was more like, "Let's ask her a question to get this, like, one-liner or this article grab." So that's kind of where I started to become a little bit fearful. I think people can see that I became a little bit more closed off.

    7. JS

      Mm. Yeah, which is natural.

  22. 43:01 – 45:21

    No One Can Predict Someone's Path

    1. JS

      I mean, th- going back to what we were talking about with King Richard, I still remember that scene where, like, her dad has to stop the interviewer from asking her those questions because he's like, "She's, like, 15 years old." And, and it's interesting, you know, the kind of questions that I think a lot of, like I said, athletes, managers, coaches get asked. And we've seen a lot of athletes in the past 12 months, I feel, like, really... There was, uh, Giannis who came out, and he, you know, I think they were like, "Oh, well, what is it gonna be like when you don't win the championship this year?" And he's like, "Well, do you get promoted every year?" He's like, "You don't, so, you know, we're not gonna win the championship every year, and that doesn't mean we've failed." How have you-- We talked about you comparing yourself to others, but when people from the outside are comparing you to other people, how have you dealt with that? Like, how have you kind of processed that?

    2. NO

      It's easy to think about. Like, for me, I can brush that off quite easily because I know it's my life, and I'm living it. I know that the decisions that I make are gonna be [laughs] very different to, um, other people's decisions, and, um, I don't know. It's, it's-- No one can ever predict someone else's path. I just realize, like, some people will understand that, and some people won't, and it's not my job to convince, um, people of that. But at the same time, I guess, um, seeing comparisons is hard because you can wonder, I guess. I, I think for me, the most dangerous thing is the, the wonder.

    3. JS

      Ah.

    4. NO

      I wonder if they're right, or I wonder if, you know, um... I wonder how they're seeing things like that.

    5. JS

      Yeah, yeah. That's-- It's so natural and so real. I literally had a friend reach out to me yesterday, and she was just like, "Jay, I've, I've got this really big launch coming up in, in my life," in her career, and she was like, "But I was watching one of my friends, and he had his big launch event, and then I was comparing mine to his," and, you know. And, and I think it's something we all do. I know I do it too. Like, it's such a natural thing. And, and I loved what you said earlier that it's just a thought you have to make peace with, that the thought's gonna come up. Like, we're not gonna be able to get away with that thought. We're not gonna be able to avoid that thought, and it's what we do with that thought, and it's how we respond to it that makes all the difference. And this desire for that thought to never appear and to never happen again, that's what kind of causes us so much tension.

  23. 45:21 – 47:44

    Finding Calmness Through Meditation

    1. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    2. JS

      It's almost like the day we accept that you can't avoid a thought, even if it's not peaceful, is the day you find peace because you just realize that you can't keep resisting it, and you can't push it away, and then all of a sudden, it loses its power on you. I don't know if that resonates or makes sense at all.

    3. NO

      Yeah, I would say it definitely makes sense. I think even [laughs] trying to avoid a thought makes it much stronger. For me, I, I found myself often trying to meditate, um, when I have a lot of thoughts. I, I love listening to ocean noises or rain. I think water has a very powerful effect on me, and I don't try to push thoughts away. I try to welcome them and not solve them but figure out why they're coming in an abundance.

    4. JS

      Mm. When did you start meditating?

    5. NO

      [laughs] Um, I think honestly before my first US Open win.

    6. JS

      Wow.

    7. NO

      Yeah.

    8. JS

      What-- How did you get introduced to it?

    9. NO

      I didn't really get introduced to it. I just began noticing, like, I really enjoyed rainy days, and I began wondering what was the cause of that and why did it cause me so much peace. And, um, I knew Grand Slams were, um, particularly first rounds, they were very stressful, and so I just started listening to rain noises, um, I guess the night before matches.

    10. JS

      How does it feel living in LA when we don't get a lot of rainy days? [laughs]

    11. NO

      [laughs] Um, that doesn't bother me that much.

    12. JS

      Yeah.

    13. NO

      I used to live in Florida, and we would get, like, random rainstorms, and, um, I don't know. It was fun, but it was also a little bit chaotic for practice.

    14. JS

      Yeah. Yeah. It's-- I love that self-awareness of being able to connect rainy days to water sounds and, and rain sounds. I think, yeah, it's so interesting. It's-- I, I love water sound too. I find it so soothing and calming and, and beautiful, and it's such a interesting thing. I was-- Like, the fact that you never got introduced to meditation, but were able to come to it of your own self, of recognizing what you, you know, what connects with you and what makes you feel calm. That's pretty awesome. Is it something you still practice now, or has it evolved at all?

    15. NO

      No, it's definitely something I practice now. I have a app on my phone, um, that also does brainwaves while-

    16. JS

      Mm-hmm

    17. NO

      ... I'm having the water noises, and I listen to it every night.

  24. 47:44 – 50:25

    Setting New Goals

    1. JS

      We've been talking a lot about, like, disconnecting and detaching from previous versions of ourself. Uh, you've talked about how, like, getting your mom to, like, you know, not work as hard was such a big goal-

    2. NO

      Mm-hmm

    3. JS

      ... for wanting to become a successful tennis player. What was it like when you reached that goal, when you could actually relieve her of all that pressure?

    4. NO

      It was a very joyful day. Um, but at the same time-It was a little difficult for me because it was a goal that I've set, um, for myself since I was very young, and I almost felt a little lost, like I had to immediately set a new goal for myself. I mean, it was awesome to see her not work anymore, um, but just that, like, immediate race to set a new goal for myself and to set a new standard was something that, um, I struggled with for maybe a couple days.

    5. JS

      Yeah. I mean, I can imagine it being harder than that because I feel like that's such a strong why, like such a strong purpose of wanting your mom not to have to work that hard, and that has so much meaning to it. It has so much gravitas to it. Often goals are like, "Oh, I wanna win something," or, "I wanna get somewhere," and then when you make it about service or helping your mother or helping someone, it almost gets so much deeper.

    6. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JS

      I can imagine it's really hard to find a goal that deep again. Have you been able to find a new goal that feels that deeply rooted again?

    8. NO

      Not really.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. NO

      Um, I, I think for me, most of my childhood was wanting my mom to stop working because I rarely saw her, um, unless it was dinner [laughs] time. It was, in a way, I think, me trying to see my mother more often, and once I accomplished that, then it became more winning or making history or being the first Asian number one, stuff like that. And obviously-

    11. JS

      Those are meaningful. [laughs]

    12. NO

      [laughs] Yeah, they're meaningful. A little more-

    13. JS

      Yeah

    14. NO

      ... shallow, but still meaningful. Um-

    15. JS

      No, very meaningful.

    16. NO

      But yeah, I think now, you know, I, I do have meaningful goals. Maybe they're just not as touching as, you know, retiring my mom, but I'd love for my daughter to reach an age where she can see me play and kind of understand everything that's going on.

    17. JS

      You'll have to keep playing.

    18. NO

      [laughs] I definitely have to keep playing for a little while longer, but I think, you know, I've learned so much throughout the years, so I'm excited to learn more.

    19. JS

      Are you excited for her to get on the court? Would you like her to play as well?

    20. NO

      People ask me this all the time, and I think before I had her, I said definitely not. Um, but I, I think now, like, you know, if she's interested about the sport, I, I'd want her to learn, and she has a racket that she loves to swing around.

    21. JS

      Hmm. I love that.

  25. 50:25 – 54:17

    Shamed for Taking a Break

    1. JS

      When, when you were going through your-- When you announced that you weren't gonna play and you took your break from tennis and competitive tennis for, for some time, what were you actually dealing with? Like, what, what were you actually experiencing from a mental health perspective? Like, what, what did that look like for you?

    2. NO

      I'd say the, the French Open break, um, what I was dealing with at the time, a lot of shame, which I talked to you about, like feeling embarrassed, um, feeling ashamed, like going against everything an athlete stood for, which is like, you know, fake it till you make it, um, or don't show the other person, you know, any cracks in your armor. Honestly, just feeling very alone. I think tennis, of course, for me, I don't play doubles, so it's a solo sport, and I don't necessarily have, you know, the most friends on tour, so I didn't really know what public reaction or reaction in general was. I remember after I pulled out of the French Open, I flew, um, back home to LA, and I just stayed in my house for maybe a week or two, and I didn't-- I just, like, Instacart-ed and Uber Eats everything because I didn't wanna see the outside world. So I would say going to the Olympics after that changed my mindset a lot, um, because there were so many athletes that thanked me, and I felt so much shock because I, I didn't know that I was helping anyone, and I almost kind of went into the Olympics thinking, like, people are gonna, you know, think that I'm, like, the worst athlete of all time.

    3. JS

      What was it that was weighing on you that even made you wanna share the decision? Like, what, what were you going through that was so hard for you to play and perform at that time?

    4. NO

      The emotions at the time felt so heavy, and I'm trying to, like, recreate, you know, the exact emotions that led to the decision, but I remember I won the US Open, won the Australian Open, was trying my best to, like, win the French as well, and, um, historically, I don't have, like, the best clay record, so a lot of press were asking me about that, and, um, leading up into it, I wasn't doing amazing, but I wasn't doing terrible either. But I just was so stressed out going into the tournament that I didn't want to answer questions about it anymore 'cause it was, like, a constant everyday thing, and I just wanted to focus on, you know, what I could do. It just kinda got to a breaking point because I remember saying I wasn't gonna do media, and then that kind of blew up in my face everywhere, and it became such a big deal, and I didn't know why. I just felt really bad because the tournament was very upset, and I kinda felt like, you know, like people weren't focusing on the tennis anymore. It was just focusing on who's not doing press? Why is she not doing press? And so I just decided to leave.

    5. JS

      Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, by the way, because I think it's... Yeah, just as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about it, like when you look at movies, actors make a movie, and then they do a press run, and you're talking about a movie that you've recorded, like, in the past, or you filmed in the past. Music's the same. You record an album, then you go and talk about it.

    6. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JS

      This is the opposite way. [laughs] Like, you're being asked about it before you go on the court, and then obviously after as well, and I can imagine, like, you just wanna be focused, and I, I mean, you know, I don't do anything of any similar pressure, but I can think about even when I'm just going on stage to give a talk or a presentation or even an interview like this, and I know how much I need my downtime and my personal time to prepare and get my mindset right, and this isn't a competition. It's not stressful in the way the games are physically or mentally or anything, and so-I, I can imagine that that becomes really

  26. 54:17 – 55:52

    Getting Support from Fellow Athletes

    1. JS

      difficult. Were there some athlete- who were the athletes that came up to you and, uh, said something to you at the Olympics that made you feel a sense of... I mean, I think you already knew you did the right thing, but people who came and reminded you that it was definitely a good decision.

    2. NO

      A lot of, like, female athletes. Um, I got a really nice message, um, from other tennis players as well, and I felt like I went from feeling very alone to not feeling so alone at all.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. NO

      So, um, it was, it was really nice.

    5. JS

      Who'd be your ideal doubles partner if you did play?

    6. NO

      If I had to have a male doubles partner, Andre Agassi.

    7. JS

      Oh, wow.

    8. NO

      And then female, I would say Serena, but I would be very scared. [laughs]

    9. JS

      [laughs] To live it up?

    10. NO

      Yeah.

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. NO

      I would be apologizing all the time.

    13. JS

      [laughs]

    14. NO

      So, um, you know what? Venus.

    15. JS

      Okay.

    16. NO

      She's always been so incredibly kind.

    17. JS

      Oh, I love that. I love that. There must be some secret tennis society where you can make that happen-

    18. NO

      [laughs]

    19. JS

      ... when no one's watching, right? Like a, a private game.

    20. NO

      Um, you know, potentially, but also I feel like everyone's just, you know, living their lives.

    21. JS

      Yeah. Yeah. I o- I once got to play a private game against Novak Djokovic, and-

    22. NO

      Oh, that's cool

    23. JS

      ... and I got destroyed. And I couldn't, I couldn't-

    24. NO

      I'm sorry, but I would have expected that [laughs]

    25. JS

      ... I couldn't ret- yeah, obviously. I couldn't return, I couldn't even return a serve. Like, I couldn't even get to it.

    26. NO

      Oh, really?

    27. JS

      Yeah, that's how bad I am.

    28. NO

      And he was going easy too?

    29. JS

      Uh, probably. Yeah [laughs] I imagine so. He's, he's a nice guy. He was, uh, he was, like, trying to coach me and-

    30. NO

      Mm

  27. 55:52 – 57:08

    Friendships and Camaraderie

    1. JS

      Uh, you talked about loneliness and friendship, and I find any athlete who's on the road, as much as a tennis player, Formula One racers, soccer players, pretty much every o- every sport, there's so much travel involved. Like, how have you built friendships and how have you maintained friendships, as it isn't a team sport? And I think team sports, we forget that there is a sense of camaraderie. At least you have two or three people that become close friends, but when you're playing a singles sport, it's actually a lot more challenging to have that. What does your friend circle look like, and how has it evolved over time?

    2. NO

      Honestly, I'm pretty lucky because even though I'm not playing a team sport, I still have a team around me. So, um, you know, like my trainer, my physio, my, um, coach, my hitting partner, we all travel the world together, and I'm the type of person that it does take a while to open up. But, um, I don't know, once I do open up, [laughs] things might get a little crazy.

    3. JS

      [laughs]

    4. NO

      For me, that relationship with my team is very important, and it's helped me a lot over the years. Um, and of course, um, I guess talking to my mom, talking to my big sister, keeping those relationships is super important.

    5. JS

      Mm.

  28. 57:08 – 59:31

    Mentored by Kobe Bryant

    1. JS

      You've said before that Kobe was a mentor for you as well, right? Kobe Bryant, who I was so grateful and honored to have a conversation with around five years ago now, sadly before his tragic passing. And what was that relationship like for you, and why was it so important and powerful to you? How did you even meet?

    2. NO

      I met him because my agent... We were... I don't know. Something had happened, and then we were talking about someone that would be a good mentor for me, and he just was like, "Okay, Kobe." [laughs]

    3. JS

      [laughs]

    4. NO

      I don't... In my head, that's how it went. There was probably, like, very, like multiple steps to get to Kobe. But yeah, one day we were at his office, and, um, me and him sat and talked for like two hours, and he's such a genuine guy, and it was just so easy and pleasant to talk to him, and that relationship was, is something that I treasure a lot because I felt like he was my big brother and I could talk to him about, um, sports advice and life advice and just things that were in my head, so.

    5. JS

      Yeah. Was there a piece of advice that he gave you that stayed with you?

    6. NO

      Basically, I, I remember asked him once, like, how does he not pay attention to people's opinions. Um, and then he was like referencing Animal Planet, um, and saying, like, "You have to be the lion, and the flies around your eyes are people's opinions, and you just have to focus and keep your eyes straight."

    7. JS

      I love that.

    8. NO

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      Do, do you find new mentors now? Is looking for mentorship a part of where you're at right now, or is it no time whatsoever, so?

    10. NO

      I'm not necessarily sure I, I would consider anyone my mentor after him. Um, and I feel like the word mentor is such a big one. I would love to have people to converse with. Um, and it's also weird because when I think of mentor, I think of someone that's, like, older than me.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. NO

      And I would love to have one. I just, you know, don't really know if, how I would approach that.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. NO

      Um, maybe I would ask my agent [laughs]

    15. JS

      Ask your agent. Yeah. It's like your agent-

    16. NO

      He seems to know, um

    17. JS

      ... he seemed to figure it out last time, yeah.

    18. NO

      But yeah, I'm kind of more interested in, like, trying to be a mentor to someone.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. NO

      I know that, you know, [laughs] my path wasn't exactly the smoothest, but I would hope that the younger generation could maybe learn a thing or two.

  29. 59:31 – 1:00:58

    The Haitian Way of Giving

    1. JS

      If you were coaching someone or mentoring them, what would be a piece of advice that you'd want to pass on to them, or what's something that you feel you'd really want to instill in them?

    2. NO

      I think it would go back to, like, the Haitian, the Haitian way of, like, giving, even though, you know. I think human nature a little bit is to be selfish.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. NO

      Recently, I've kind of dealt with or overcome the feeling of the fear of being forgotten.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. NO

      Um, and I think in that way, um, we kind of tend to keep things close to the vest. And for me, I, I think [laughs] sharing is caring and just trying to make the world better for the, the kids that come after us.

    7. JS

      I really believe that we're wired for generosity but educated for greed.And that selfishness comes in because society encourages you to want to get, to achieve, to get somewhere, when actually your essence is trying to just be and live and experience and learn and heal. It's almost like there, there's two tracks, and I think we're on both of them, but I think often we just get onto one of them.

    8. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JS

      And it becomes about achieving and winning, which is important, but you get away from the being, living, and experiencing, and it's, it's like how do you make sense of both of those?

    10. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JS

      And you're right, having mentors is such a beautiful way to kind of follow in the footsteps of someone who's been there, done that, and, and had to think about those things earlier than you.

    12. NO

      Yeah.

  30. 1:00:58 – 1:04:29

    Who Are You Spending Your Time With the Most?

    1. JS

      But it seems like you still talk to your family a lot, your team, as you said, you're surrounded by them a lot. Who's the person you spend the most time with right now when you're not on the court and not thinking about tennis, and what, what do you, what's like, what's something you do when you're not playing or not preparing?

    2. NO

      [laughs] Currently the person I spend the most time with is my daughter. [laughs]

    3. JS

      Yeah, of course.

    4. NO

      Um-

    5. JS

      You said she's one year and five months?

    6. NO

      Yes.

    7. JS

      Yeah.

    8. NO

      And she's teaching me a lot, how to put my foot down, [laughs] because she definitely puts her foot down.

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. NO

      So the person I spend the most time with, maybe either my boyfriend or my trainer, because my trainer is with me, like, a very, very long time out of the day. Um, he's a funny guy, so.

    11. JS

      Is he? Why, why is your trainer a funny guy?

    12. NO

      Can I ask you, what is your, um, zodiac sign?

    13. JS

      Yeah, I'm a Virgo.

    14. NO

      Oh yeah, he's a Virgo, too. [laughs]

    15. JS

      Okay. All right. Okay. So now-

    16. NO

      So-

    17. JS

      Now I'm a funny guy too.

    18. NO

      Yeah. [laughs]

    19. JS

      What, what date's his birthday? Do you know?

    20. NO

      Um, I think s- August, no. September, September 8th?

    21. JS

      Oh, I'm September 6th.

    22. NO

      Oh, okay.

    23. JS

      Okay. Carry on. Now continue.

    24. NO

      [laughs] Um, so yeah, he's-

    25. JS

      I'm thick-skinned, it's all right. You can say what you want.

    26. NO

      I don't know, I feel like Virgos are very, like, they want to be perfectionist, or they are perfectionist.

    27. JS

      For sure, yeah.

    28. NO

      And it's just funny to interact with him, and, um, you know, like I, when I get comfortable with people, I goof around a lot, and I love seeing him get frustrated about it-

    29. JS

      [laughs]

    30. NO

      ... a little bit. Um, but yeah, it's, it's just nice because I find Virgos to be very knowledgeable in their fields.

  31. 1:04:29 – 1:05:29

    Loving Yourself and How You Look

    1. JS

      what's allowed you to be comfortable in your own skin lately?

    2. NO

      I think I'm very lucky, because I've kind of been forced to be comfortable in my own skin. Um, and I think that's due to, like, being a little bit different. I guess in general, like, I'm Japanese, but maybe presenting I don't look Japanese, so that's... When I was younger, that often caught people off guard.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. NO

      But for me, this is just, you know, this is just how I look. This is how I know that I am, and, um, having both cultures, um, is my way of life, and I've always felt very confident and comfortable with that.

    5. JS

      Yeah.

    6. NO

      Um, so I would say it's not necessarily something I've struggled with often, but I think also another phase of that is motherhood and, um, [laughs] trying to snap back with snap back culture, and I'm just... Yeah, I guess loving myself, so self-love.

    7. JS

      Mm. Mm.

  32. 1:05:29 – 1:07:33

    Game Day Routine

    1. JS

      I'm always fascinated by high-performing individuals, like who've played at, you know, in the top 1% of not only athletes, but then of your own sport. What does your routine look like on a game day? Like, how do you prep yourself? How do you get in the zone, and what does, what does that look like? You talked about meditation earlier and things, but what does an actual breakdown look like?

    2. NO

      This is where, like, the routine kicks in, so every day is kind of the exact same. I eat breakfast. Well, I wake up, meditate, take a shower, eat breakfast.

    3. JS

      Specific breakfast?

    4. NO

      Yeah, always the same breakfast every time.

    5. JS

      What is it?

    6. NO

      Usually it'd be, like, smoked salmon, but I'm kind of off that phase right now. Um, so yeah, go to the tournaments. I do, like, light hitting, and then change into my outfit, listen to music, do, like, a game prep, and then-Warm up and play the match

    7. JS

      Mm. Do you sleep well before a big game?

    8. NO

      Depends how big it is.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. NO

      I know before all of my finals I didn't sleep as well. I think, um, yeah, I, I don't know. I, I just remember waking up sweating. [laughs]

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. NO

      I don't think you're really supposed to sleep well before-

    13. JS

      [laughs]

    14. NO

      ... moments like that.

    15. JS

      I, I... That's... I ask because I remember, like, even having, like, big interviews and things like that. When I say interviews, I mean, like, when I was being interviewed for being at companies, which seemed like an important part of my career at one point. I remember just never sleeping well, like, the adrenaline's in my body, I'm, like, rehearsing in my head. But it's so important to playing well the next day to have rest and recovery and everything else. Was there any secret that you found to be able to sleep or at least be energetic the next day?

    16. NO

      [laughs] Not really, but I found myself constantly playing the match in my head-

    17. JS

      Mm

    18. NO

      ... in my dreams, um, the night before matches. So I felt like when the time actually came, I had already prepared myself for that, and it actually helped me out quite a lot.

    19. JS

      If someone right now was,

  33. 1:07:33 – 1:09:04

    You're Never Alone

    1. JS

      you know, going through depression or suffering from a mental health condition or experiencing something and they're listening right now, and we know that our audience really turns to us in those times, and so many people have listened to episodes here that have helped them through really difficult times in their life, what would, what would you say to them? What would you share with them?

    2. NO

      I don't ever claim to know answers, but I think when I was at really low moments of my life, I always felt like I was alone. Um, so I would say you're never alone. There's always gonna be people that care about you, um, way more than you think. And sometimes I think we hide it so well that we're struggling that they don't even know. Um, so it's okay to ask for help, and you shouldn't ever feel shame for that.

    3. JS

      Mm. I love that. Yeah, no, it's, it's always helpful hearing it from someone who's been through it, and, and I know our audience appreciates that a lot. Was there any specific healing method or technique or approach that really helped you, especially getting over that shame, that guilt, that, that feeling you were carrying? Was there anything that helped?

    4. NO

      Honestly, I think just interacting with people.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. NO

      I tend to close myself off a lot, whether it's, like, [laughs] being in my room by myself. Um, so yeah, just interacting with people, talking to my sister, um, and just realizing that there's a lot more to life than I, I know.

  34. 1:09:04 – 1:12:40

    Fear of Being Forgotten

    1. JS

      A few moments ago you were talking about how, like, there was this feeling of, you know, being forgotten and then taking a break. So, like, having the courage to take a break when you have the fear of being forgotten is probably one of the most courageous acts for anyone in the world, whatever they do. How have you kind of been able to make that decision and been able to reconcile that for yourself?

    2. NO

      I think it's a process that's kind of been sped up by the events of my life. Um, I feel like those two things are maybe something that should've been spread out [laughs] throughout years, but I just happened to put it together. I don't know. I've won four Grand Slams. I've been very fortunate to light the Olympic torch. There's probably [laughs] some more that my agent wants me to say, but I, I don't know. Those are the things that come to my mind, and I've, in a way, accomplished so much more than I thought I would, and I want to accomplish so much more. But at the same time, like, I needed to separate myself as a person. I, I think I told you I've been playing tennis since I was three, so that's the only identity I know of myself, and I needed the break to figure out who I was as a person. And now I, I hope I do, and I think I do, but I'm able to stand tall and be confident and, um, [laughs] I don't know, be proud of myself for that.

    3. JS

      Yeah. I, I think that's the greatest accomplishment. I, I really do. I... Hearing you speak today, and I'm just so excited for everyone who's gonna listen to recognize that the day we're not defined by our careers is s- it's so interesting how society became defined by what we do at one point, and the question became, "Well, what do you do?" And then that's how we introduced ourselves. And even if you look at last names, at one point they all became about a career, like Baker and blacksmith and whatever. All these names became our last names because they were our occupation, and so they became our total identity. And it's so interesting to think about how even in today's society, our worth, our everything is defined by what you do for a living. And so to be able to go beyond that as young as you are and as early as you are, it's, I think it's a really powerful place to be, and only good can come from it. So it's pretty remarkable.

    4. NO

      Thank you.

    5. JS

      I love hearing that. So yeah.

    6. NO

      Thanks for saying I'm young. [laughs]

    7. JS

      Huh?

    8. NO

      I said thanks for-

    9. JS

      You are young

    10. NO

      ... saying I'm young.

    11. JS

      You are young. What? What, is people making you feel old?

    12. NO

      You know, [laughs]

    13. JS

      [laughs]

    14. NO

      maybe I'm making myself feel old. I think that's it.

    15. JS

      Yeah. I don't think you're... How are you old?

    16. NO

      I think it's also, like, growing up in the tennis world, there's always constantly young-

    17. JS

      Yeah

    18. NO

      ... people coming up, so I start feeling like a grandma.

    19. JS

      That's a great point. That makes a lot of sense. I feel like if you're in an industry where everyone's 18 or 19 or-

    20. NO

      Mm

    21. JS

      ... I guess in tennis cases, like, three.

    22. NO

      [laughs] Yeah.

    23. JS

      Like you said you started at three. I was like, of course you're gonna feel ancient if everyone's starting at three years old. Naomi, it's been such a joy to talk to you today, honestly. I've loved every moment of it, and I appreciate you being so open and funny and, like, this conversation was as, as playful as it was profound, and I loved that when I felt like we were playing tennis. I was like, you know.

    24. NO

      [laughs]

    25. JS

      I, I hope so. You said I won one rally, so I'll take that.

    26. NO

      No, I think you won that one.

    27. JS

      Okay. All right. I'll take it.

    28. NO

      You won the set.

    29. JS

      I'm gonna, I'm gonna say... I won the set?

    30. NO

      Yeah.

  35. 1:12:40 – 1:15:38

    Naomi on Final Five

    1. JS

      we end every episode with a Final Five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

    2. NO

      Oh, wow.

    3. JS

      And so Naomi Osaka, these are your Final Five. The first question is, what's the best advice you've ever heard or received?

    4. NO

      Ah, wow. Does that count as my answer?

    5. JS

      What's that?

    6. NO

      Saying, "Ah." [laughs]

    7. JS

      No, no. [laughs] What is the best advice?

    8. NO

      Um, best advice I've ever heard? Just be yourself.

    9. JS

      Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever had or received?

    10. NO

      Just be yourself. [laughs]

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. NO

      I'm just kidding. Um, what's the worst advice I've ever heard? It's, like, when people say, "Just smile," but, you know, sometimes I don't want to smile.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. NO

      Sorry.

    15. JS

      No.

    16. NO

      That was ... [laughs]

    17. JS

      No. No, no, no, I get it. No, I- it's ... I, I understand. It, it's, it's a forced, it's a forced emotion. It doesn't work. You can't force either. Question number three, what's something you used to value that you don't value anymore?

    18. NO

      People's opinions because I think I ... I don't know. I value my own opinion more, and I think I, [laughs] I might have a, a better opinion because I'm living my life, so.

    19. JS

      Yeah. Question number four, what are you most excited for in the next 12 months?

    20. NO

      Seeing my daughter grow and returning and playing on tour to play more tournaments.

    21. JS

      Mm. Which tournament do you get most excited about?

    22. NO

      Oh. Always the Slams. Um, I feel like they're, they're so special.

    23. JS

      Yeah. I need to come watch you.

    24. NO

      You should.

    25. JS

      Um, yeah, I'd love that. That'd be awesome. Uh, fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone had to follow, what would it be?

    26. NO

      Do something good for, I guess, the younger generation.

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. NO

      Or do something good for the person coming up after you.

    29. JS

      That's a great law. I love that. I think you've definitely done that. Uh, you've genuinely ... I, I ... Ever since I read your op-ed and, and learned about what you were doing to open up about mental health, I was like, "I need to meet this human."

    30. NO

      Aw.

Episode duration: 1:15:38

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