Oscar-Winner Daniel Kaluuya: Why You Should Reject Others' Opinions & Bet On Yourself

Daniel Kaluuya 0:00 I find that when you go on those journeys, there's something about the badness in it that you have to face in yourself, and it's whether you take the lesson, and if you don't take that lesson, you will meet it again

Jay Shetty 0:10 Oscar-winning actor

Speaker 0:11 Writer, director, producer Please welcome Daniel Kaluuya.

Daniel Kaluuya 0:15 Anything I'm doing now I've to- been told I can't do. I've been told I can't act. I think I talked to some people and they were like, "You ain't gonna make it." I said, "Well, I think I can."

Jay Shetty 0:26 Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The number one health and wellness podcast.

Speaker 0:51 Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:57 I always like starting with this question because I think I'm intrigued to see where you take it. Like, what would you say is your earliest childhood memory that defines who you are today?

Daniel Kaluuya 1:07 There's one, yeah. There was one. I grew up quite a fat kid, yeah? And then you used to go Scouts, Cubs and Scouts. You go into like, I don't know, some random place in the countryside, go into a camping or something, and then like there's potholes. You know about potholes?

Jay Shetty 1:19 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:19 Where you go in there, boom, boom, boom. It's like I'm running through this, I'm running through this pothole, yeah? And then like I'm doing this pothole, boom, boom, boom, going in, and like everyone starts laughing 'cause I'm fat. They was like, "Oh, like Dan's not gonna fit, Dan's not gonna fit." And I got in there, and then halfway through it gets narrower and narrower, and I proper didn't... And they looked in, a bunch of kids were like... I must've been nine, eight. They were like, "He's filled the whole thing." They're just laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. And then I was like, "All right, cool. I can't really go back." So it's only really... And I'm actually have filled it. So then I was like, "All right, cool." And I just found a way to, I was just like, I knew how to like change my body and go, "I'm gonna get out. I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it." And then I realized they were laughing, and then as I was getting closer, closer to the exit, they just stopped laughing. They stopped laughing, they stopped laughing, and then by the end they clapped. And I think after it I was like, "Right then, yeah." I don't know, I look back and go, I think it really changed how I saw everything in my life. I go, "Bruv, what, what is, what, what are you to me?" [chuckles] Do you know what I'm saying? It's like I kinda felt, had that energy. I was like, just push through. Just do what you're supposed to do. Just do what you're supposed to do and you'll get to the end, and people that will say things, that will tell you, say you're weird, say you're odd, by the end of it, not that they'll clap. You can make them... I don't know, it doesn't matter about them. It just matters about you getting there.

Jay Shetty 2:46 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 2:46 Do you know what I'm saying? And I think few years ago, before then, I really cared about the clap. Like I really cared, like you, I'm gonna make you clap. I'm pissed but I'm gonna make you clap. I think in that moment I saw my character. I saw what I'm actually about in that moment. And yeah. And then they just respected me.

Jay Shetty 3:03 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 3:04 That's it. And at the end of it it was what, I gained respect, so yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:07 Yeah. And you think that, that still applies today?

Daniel Kaluuya 3:10 In all ways. Yeah, man. Like do you know how many people say you can't do something? [snorts]

Jay Shetty 3:16 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 3:16 Bruv, everything's made up. Shit don't even make sense.

Jay Shetty 3:17 What have you been told that you couldn't do?

Daniel Kaluuya 3:19 Bruv, name it. Like anything I'm doing now I've to- been told I can't do. I've been told I can't act. I wouldn't be able to make a career out of it. Connections. It was on Parkway, like in Camden. They was like-

Jay Shetty 3:29 I know Connections, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 3:30 ... yeah. They were like saying... And my mom was just stressed, like she was, "Do you wanna act? I gotta take you, talk to some people." You know? And they were like, "You ain't gonna make it." I said, "Well, I think I can." And I must've been 15. I said, "I can, you know?" They said, "No, no, no, no, no." So it's all that kinda stuff, like you're consistently kinda told that like i- it won't happen, and I just didn't believe that. So that's why I really would keep it secret what I was doing, or my dreams or my hopes or, like I didn't think hopes, like what I see. Like I, if I can see it, that means I can do it. So it's more that, like every-

Jay Shetty 4:03 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 4:03 ... everything, everything like you're told you can't do, even like being a- away from race, even the class that I've come from. Like they're saying, "Oh, you can't do that." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" And it's nuts. Like I just, I've always just been like-

Jay Shetty 4:16 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 4:16 But then that, that was very much the mentality of my school. Like it was where you said, "All right, cool, you ain't got money. All right, cool, let's sell chocolate bars. All right, cool, let's sell crisps. All right, cool..." It's just like you've gotta make it work. [chuckles]

Jay Shetty 4:26 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 4:26 No matter what. So I've always come, I feel like I've come from that cloth.

Jay Shetty 4:30 Yeah. Did you find that keeping it secret was useful?

Daniel Kaluuya 4:34 Yeah, 'cause it me- meant that I was able to fail in private-

Jay Shetty 4:40 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 4:40 ... and just grow at my own pace, and have it f- and underst- And basically what it was, I realized in hindsight in acting and writing and all this kinda stuff, I realized I found what it meant to me.

Jay Shetty 4:51 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 4:51 I found what my definition of it is. I found my style. I found what I liked. That was, so it was mine. It wasn't like, oh, well I got it from here, I got it from there. It was, "No, this is what I think. This is how I've got to this."

Jay Shetty 5:05 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 5:05 So that's like why I'm happy I did it, 'cause I felt like, in hindsight I felt I was a bit too ahead of people that I was around in terms of what I was focused on.

Jay Shetty 5:16 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 5:17 'Cause it's quite odd if I think ab- think back.

Jay Shetty 5:19 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 5:19 I was like, "Yeah, no, I can make... I'm gonna do this." Oh. [laughs] I'm like, it's like you mean it, like no one in my family's doing it. No one, no one's doing it.

Jay Shetty 5:27 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 5:27 But I just think I can. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's like, um, so I think it's, it, it's that, yeah.

Jay Shetty 5:32 Yeah. Where did that belief come from at that age, at 15, to go, "I can even though no one's saying it"? Like where, where did that inspiration come from? Was it, was it from what you were watching or-

Daniel Kaluuya 5:41 Watching Fresh Prince.

Jay Shetty 5:41 Yeah, of course.

Daniel Kaluuya 5:42 Was watching My, my, like Wayans Brothers. I was watching like, I don't know, Sponge... No, SpongeBob's a bit past my, um, what's that one?

Jay Shetty 5:49 Simpsons maybe?

Daniel Kaluuya 5:50 Yeah. Simpsons, Ed, Edd n Eddy. Like I was watching like live.

Jay Shetty 5:52 Ed, Edd n Eddy. Yeah. [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 5:53 Yeah, I was watching live. Like do you know what I'm saying? I wasn't really like, I don't know, I just believed.

Jay Shetty 5:58 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 5:59 I don't know, I just kinda was like No, I don't believe you

Jay Shetty 6:04 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 6:04 I don't know you. Like, back in the day, I was like, like, see, I don't... Remember John Major, yeah?

Jay Shetty 6:09 Yeah, of course.

Daniel Kaluuya 6:09 Prime Minister, like, was at... They said

Daniel Kaluuya 6:11 he told you to do something. I'm like, "But I don't know him."

Jay Shetty 6:12 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 6:14 How can he, how can someone I don't know tell me what to do?

Jay Shetty 6:17 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 6:18 Kind of nuts.

Jay Shetty 6:19 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 6:20 If I know someone, they would, like, do you know what I mean? It's like-

Jay Shetty 6:21 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 6:22 So that's why I was like, I just always... You know, I realize, I think I just, I'm blessed I have faith.

Jay Shetty 6:28 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 6:29 And I think I just have faith, and I realize, I read something the other day, and I think the difference between faith and delusion is God.

Jay Shetty 6:36 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 6:36 And I'm not saying like, "Oh, God, oh." It's just like, I just have faith. Like, I just had faith. I just, just believe. And I think maybe I saw my family doing amazing things, like, not... And amazing things in the sense that, like, making something work or going on for a holiday or they just didn't accept. They were like, "All right, cool, we've done..." Like say they wanted to act, "All right, cool, you can't afford that, but we can do this."

Jay Shetty 6:57 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 6:57 They just pushed on. They didn't, they didn't let the environment or the boundaries define what they thought was possible in their mind.

Jay Shetty 7:06 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 7:06 So I think it was that really, but-

Jay Shetty 7:08 Yeah, I love that. I love hearing that your parents were saying, "Yes, and..."

Daniel Kaluuya 7:12 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 7:12 Like, it wasn't like, "No, but..." It was, "Yes, and..." Right? And it's so interesting.

Daniel Kaluuya 7:16 Yeah, my mom was just like, "Yo, what, like, how are we gonna, like, how are we gonna do this?" She would challenge me, always challenge me, and then I'd say, "Oh, yeah, this is, this is, this." But I realized she was just like going, trying to test me if I really believed in it.

Jay Shetty 7:28 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 7:28 And then, and then again, like, I probably needed that. I did need that 'cause I needed to know it for my... I was aware of it.

Jay Shetty 7:35 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 7:35 So then I was like, "All right, cool. This is what's gonna happen." And then she looked, go, "Okay, I believe you. All right, cool. Let's go." Like, this is the way. I know this is the way. I know I can make it work. So I think it was just like, I just be- I just believed. I don't know where it comes from. I think-

Jay Shetty 7:48 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 7:48 ... it's just a gift, innit? I just-

Jay Shetty 7:49 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 7:50 ... I just try and honor it and try and do good with it.

Jay Shetty 7:52 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 7:52 I don't try and, like, like intellectualize it.

Jay Shetty 7:56 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 7:56 Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 7:57 Yeah, yeah. I get that, man. I get that. That makes sense, and obviously, like, I, I heard, I was watching your Hot Ones, which I loved.

Daniel Kaluuya 8:02 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:03 And, uh, on there you talked about how, like, you wrote your first piece when you were 9 years old, and I was thinking it's amazing now because with the work that you're doing now with The Kitchen and, like, production and writing, like, you're kind of almost doing this full circle piece.

Daniel Kaluuya 8:17 Mm.

Jay Shetty 8:17 Why was writing where you started? Because I don't think a lot of people know that. Like, I didn't know that as well. Like, I've discovered you as an actor and, and loved your work. But, like, what was it about writing that drew, drew you to it at 9 years old? And tell us about that piece too.

Daniel Kaluuya 8:31 I know, I know. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 8:31 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 8:32 I know at, um... I think I was at school one time. It's before this play competition, which is what I won at 9. I was at school one time, and they s- the teacher told me to write something, and in my, I said, like, in my heart I knew, "Oh, I could do this sick. I know I could do this sick." And I wrote something I thought was amazing.

Jay Shetty 8:49 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 8:49 Yeah. And the teacher gave me a rubbish grade.

Jay Shetty 8:51 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 8:51 I'm like, "You're

Daniel Kaluuya 8:52 wrong. I think you're wrong. Like, I really like this." And then, like, that, that, that competition, it was just basically like, it was a playwriting course. They come to your school-

Jay Shetty 9:01 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 9:01 ... in Camden. Roy Williams, who's a really big playwright now, was a t-teacher then.

Jay Shetty 9:06 Wow.

Daniel Kaluuya 9:06 And then, like, a teacher shamed me and was like, "Oh," like, like, "Daniel, you're messing about." I was, I was mischievous. Like, "You're messing about." [laughs] I'm like, I'm like, "No," I'm like, "I don't like this." And then so I was like, "All right, cool." And I was like, "All right, cool. I'll show you. I'll show you." Then I wrote this play. It's based on Keenan and Kel, about these guys that work in a shop-

Jay Shetty 9:24 I love Keenan and Kel

Daniel Kaluuya 9:24 ... and they just had a friendship. And then, like, I got to the next round. It was like a couple of us in the next round, and then I was just write. And then the, those guys, Jonathan Siddle and Roy, were like, they were... I knew, at that time they knew, and they, I feel like they knew I had something-

Jay Shetty 9:40 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 9:40 ... 'cause I just felt the energy in them. I was like, "Yeah, I just, this is what I think," 'cause I had, you know, I don't know. And then, like, then I won it, and then my whole school year came to Hampstead Theatre, watch it. It's in my Arsenal top. I got a picture now. I'm just flexing.

Jay Shetty 9:53 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 9:54 And then, like, uh... And then, yeah, I mean, they told me like, "Keep going, keep going." I'm like, "Bro, I'm gonna play out. I'm not gonna write." And then I, I did a play for Roy Williams, Sucker Puncher, like when I was 21, and I remember he told me after it, yeah? He was like, "Yeah, do you know that, like, the teachers didn't wanna pick you? They were like, 'Don't, he's too bad. Don't, he's too bad.'" And then Roy was like, "I'm definitely gonna pick him." So it was just, that was the kind of like, I had that antagonistic energy in class, but I just, I don't know, I just, I knew how to, I knew dialogue.

Jay Shetty 10:24 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 10:24 I knew how people spoke. But I think a lot of it's to do because I was like, in my family I didn't speak my language.

Jay Shetty 10:30 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 10:31 So then I would like sit at family events, and then I'd be like watching. You know what I mean? I can see that in hindsight. Like, I would observe, and I would like piece... And I know how to pick tone and energy, and I feel it 'cause I have to.

Jay Shetty 10:45 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 10:46 Do you know what I'm saying? So I think that's where it came from. And then, um, I stopped and I got, picked it back up at 16 to, to get back in the game. But during that time I got into acting and, and I got into acting improv, which is actually writing on your feet.

Jay Shetty 10:59 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 11:00 So then I was honing that skill set, so when I got back to playwriting again, it was easy.

Daniel Kaluuya 11:06 Or-

Jay Shetty 11:06 Tell us about some of the improv, because I feel like that's such a fascinating skill, and I love how you said writing on your feet. Like that's a, that's a cool way of thinking about it, and I feel like improv almost demands so much from an artist in a way that other work doesn't.

Daniel Kaluuya 11:19 Mm.

Jay Shetty 11:19 How, how would you... Is there, is there like a funny moment of improv that you did with a group or, or something, a story that you went through that you're like, "Oh, I remember that," and that was a moment where I was like, "Oh, I can write on my feet. I can actually do this"?

Daniel Kaluuya 11:30 I think I, I think I, I think we was messing about in class, and then, um, Evelyn taught me and Marcus. They were just like, "You guys are messing about." We was in a community class. Anishay, he's in the community class. Then if you're good enough, you get to the YPs, Young Professionals, and then like, he was just like, "Oh, like, you guys don't get it." And then they went on stage, and they just acted, and I watched it, and I was like, "Copy. I get it. I understand what you're doing. I understand." And then after that point I got it, 'cause I needed to see it to go, "All right, cool. I, I get you. I get you. I get you."

Jay Shetty 12:01 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:01 What I love about it is that you just let it go.

Jay Shetty 12:04 Mm. Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:04 You're not holding on. I have moments that my friends re-remind me if I see them go, "Oh, yeah, I remember when you brought out that iron-

Jay Shetty 12:10 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 12:11 [laughs] Oh, like, like, do you know what I mean? As a prop.

Jay Shetty 12:13 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:14 Like, oh, like... But it's, I just had this rule, it's like, once you're in your head, you're dead.

Jay Shetty 12:17 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:17 So you just got... And also it's like, it's like what you said, like improv is yes and.

Jay Shetty 12:21 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:21 So you can't reject.

Jay Shetty 12:23 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:23 Do you know what I'm saying? So it's just like-

Jay Shetty 12:24 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 12:24 ... if someone says something crazy, you just gotta go with it.

Jay Shetty 12:27 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:27 Do you know what I mean? And go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." And then also if someone doesn't know how to do it, I learnt how to drive it. So say's if you didn't know how to do it, I'd be like, "Yeah, like, why are you nodding like that? Why are you nodding like that?"

Jay Shetty 12:36 Oh yeah, and I'll have to respond. And I'll be like-

Daniel Kaluuya 12:37 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 12:37 ..."Man, 'cause I'm agreeing with you."

Daniel Kaluuya 12:39 About what?

Jay Shetty 12:40 I'm agreeing with you based on what you said about, um-

Daniel Kaluuya 12:42 What exactly did I say then?

Jay Shetty 12:43 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:44 You, yeah, and then-

Jay Shetty 12:44 Yeah, yeah, and then you, yeah, and then you build a thing. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:46 You feel me? And like, and then like you clock how to like pa, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa.

Jay Shetty 12:49 Yeah. Yeah. And that's real dialogue too, right?

Daniel Kaluuya 12:51 Exactly.

Jay Shetty 12:51 Like, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:51 'Cause you're listening.

Jay Shetty 12:52 'Cause you're interrupting and listening.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 12:53 You're not just-

Daniel Kaluuya 12:54 But you're... Then by doing that, you're playing a character that doesn't listen.

Jay Shetty 12:58 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 12:58 Or listens too closely that they don't... They're hearing, they're not listening.

Jay Shetty 13:02 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 13:02 They're trying to find s- And then so you're building that character through those-

Jay Shetty 13:05 Ah

Daniel Kaluuya 13:05 ... interactions.

Jay Shetty 13:07 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 13:07 And then you're honing it through the interactions, and then you land. Like, cool. Bang. Whoom. So it [laughs] exactly, exactly. So that's how I kinda learnt how to do it, more, it's more that. Yeah, don't, I, I thought it's hard to like describe like that.

Jay Shetty 13:20 Yeah, yeah. I, I dunno why I'm going down this road, but you mentioned it and I'm, I'm listening, so I was like... You said you're an Arsenal fan.

Daniel Kaluuya 13:26 Yeah, go on.

Jay Shetty 13:28 I'm a United fan. [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 13:30 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 13:31 You've been an Arsenal fan forever. What's your, what's been your favorite team at Arsenal over the years?

Daniel Kaluuya 13:36 Oh, man. I'd have to say like, um, my favorite was Adams, right?

Jay Shetty 13:43 Yeah. Keown, Winterburn.

Daniel Kaluuya 13:45 Keown, Overmars, Winter- but that was crazy.

Jay Shetty 13:48 Ala. Petit.

Daniel Kaluuya 13:49 Let's look at '98, like, come on, man. Petit. That, that was like, that was like... But that's when I fell in love. Do you know what I'm saying? I was like, "These are my guys." Like, everyone was just, everyone was just firing. So I just, I just, I dunno. And also it's my local team, innit? So then it was just like, say's if we won a cup, the area was happy.

Jay Shetty 14:08 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 14:09 You know what I mean? It's not like, that's what it came from. It's like, so there was a time when we didn't win a cup for nine years, and then we did FA Cup and I, I watched it at Holloway and all that kind of stuff. And then, and the next day it was like, it was all Arsenal fans outside of windows. People like, you know, on their dusty vans, the writing stuff [laughs] on their dusty vans.

Jay Shetty 14:24 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 14:24 It was just everyone was happy.

Jay Shetty 14:25 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 14:26 Even if you weren't an Arsenal fan, you were just ha- the area was happy.

Jay Shetty 14:28 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 14:29 So it was, that was the, it was a close connection. And then, I dunno, it was cool the fact that I could go to games. Like obviously the Cup games, 'cause all the other games were hard to get. I went to Martin Keown testimonial actually.

Jay Shetty 14:39 Oh, nice.

Daniel Kaluuya 14:39 But like, it was like, it was like, I dunno, you just felt like a community. Like when the, when the thing, when they scored high, the upper, the upper tier would just rock.

Jay Shetty 14:48 Yeah. [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 14:49 You'd think it would break. So it was a bit of danger.

Jay Shetty 14:51 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 14:51 You know what I'm saying? It was just, it was just like, and then it was like my mom's friend used to give me tickets when she went away, so then I would watch like wicked games or-

Jay Shetty 14:59 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 14:59 ... rubbish games, but I, I was part of it from like young, you know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 15:02 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 15:03 You could get a ticket even if you couldn't afford it, you know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 15:05 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 15:05 So it was, I just fell in love with it during that age.

Jay Shetty 15:08 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 15:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:08 And you had a lot of happy days, but I think you had a lot of unhappy days as well, like-

Daniel Kaluuya 15:11 Stressful.

Jay Shetty 15:12 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 15:12 I don't wanna put people out there.

Jay Shetty 15:13 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 15:13 This is a public forum. But it was stress, it was stress. But like I, I can, I'm very, I'm a ve- I see like I'm a very child of Wenger. Like I can see I'm very stubborn, like a very, like a, a lot of how Arsenal is, is in me, I feel like. 'Cause not, it's bigger than just football. Like they have a philosophy. Do you know what I mean? They have a style. That era had a style. They had a style, and I just respected it. Do you know what I'm saying? I just... And I think it's the going to a school in Islington, and the Islington team-

Jay Shetty 15:42 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 15:42 ... is the one, and then you're like literally looking at The Sun in the paper the next day in school, and then it's the Invincibles, and they're talking about your local team. It cha- it, I think it makes you think like-

Jay Shetty 15:55 Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 15:56 ... "We're the guys."

Jay Shetty 15:56 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 15:57 At, at such a formative age, do you know what I mean? So-

Jay Shetty 15:59 Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 15:59 ... I think it's a bit of that.

Jay Shetty 16:01 Well, that's where I struggled because, so I always say this, that every Indian person that moved to England in like the '70s and '80s, i.e. my dad, they only support Manchester United or Liverpool because those were the big clubs at the time.

Daniel Kaluuya 16:14 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:14 Like, those were the clubs winning everything. And so I support United because of that.

Daniel Kaluuya 16:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:17 I

Jay Shetty 16:18 never lived in Manchester. And so I never had a happy day in the town-

Daniel Kaluuya 16:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 16:21 ... 'cause I used to almost have to like shy away from saying I was a United fan 'cause I lived right in between Highbury and Spurs.

Daniel Kaluuya 16:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:28 So that's where I grew up in Wood Green-

Daniel Kaluuya 16:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 16:30 ... like right in between.

Daniel Kaluuya 16:31 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:31 And so I never got to go out and celebrate in the town because I didn't live in Manchester.

Daniel Kaluuya 16:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:35 And so I always like grew up in fear of like, "Oh, I can't tell anyone what I follow and like what I do and-"

Daniel Kaluuya 16:40 Why isn't there a lot of Indian players in football? I've always wanted to ask.

Jay Shetty 16:43 Do you know what? That's a, that's a great question, you know. And I think it's because a lot of parents don't... You know, if, if a, if an Indian kid told their parent they wanted to be a football player, I mean, I just gotta look at these two and go, "What, what do you think? What do you think the parents would've said?"

Daniel Kaluuya 16:56 What's the view?

Jay Shetty 16:57 What do you think the parents would've said?

Daniel Kaluuya 16:58 Definitely not.

Jay Shetty 16:58 Yeah, definitely not. No matter how good they were. I was telling Russell B, one of our mates, his, I'm calling him out here, his kid's like supposedly quite decent at football. Like, and I told him yesterday, I was like, "Mate, you gotta let this kid chase football, like chase the dream." And I don't know if, as a culture, I think our parents worked so hard and they wanted us to have safety, and so they didn't want the kids to do anything that felt unsafe. So acting would also be a no-go.

Daniel Kaluuya 17:22 I see. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 17:22 You don't see that many-

Daniel Kaluuya 17:24 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 17:24 ... South Asian people in acting. I mean, it's growing now for sure, especially the London scene. But acting, media, anything that was uncertain or unsafe, Indian parents generally were like, "No." They didn't want us to be a part of it 'cause they just wanted us to not have the struggle they did.

Daniel Kaluuya 17:38 Mm.

Jay Shetty 17:38 And so they wanted us to feel safety, security. And so if you can get a good job, right? That make sense? If you could get a good job that paid the bills, took care of you, they were happy.

Daniel Kaluuya 17:46 That's interesting.

Jay Shetty 17:47 They just wanted you to be safe.

Daniel Kaluuya 17:48 That's interesting. I, I'm interested in like how cultural, um, values dictate what the paths are, because the demographic, you sh- there should be loads in Indian... Like, like if you look at it demographically. Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 18:00 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 18:00 So-

Jay Shetty 18:00 Everyone plays at school and then it gets called off.

Daniel Kaluuya 18:02 Mm.

Jay Shetty 18:02 Like I remember with my parents too, it's like they, they want you to play, they want you to be sporty, but they don't want you to take it that seriously. I had friends at my school that were amazing at cricket.

Daniel Kaluuya 18:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:11 Like incredible cricket players that were playing for England under-21s, England under-18s, and then went off to be accountants because their parents-

Daniel Kaluuya 18:18 Mm

Jay Shetty 18:18 ... wouldn't let them, like, you know, follow the dream. And so it's, it's really interesting seeing who pushes back through that as well. Like some people just go, "No, I'm gonna try anyway." And some people fold and, and let it go.

Daniel Kaluuya 18:29 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:29 But I'm hope, I'm hoping it changes.

Daniel Kaluuya 18:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:31 I'm hoping it changes.

Daniel Kaluuya 18:32 It'd be great to.

Jay Shetty 18:33 Yeah. What were the, what were some cultural things that you think held you back? I mean, you've, you've talked a bit about the racism you experienced. You know, for me, when I, when I was hearing about that, I thought, "That doesn't sound easy when you add it to the other bullying and shaming you were talking about earlier." Like, what was it like navigating that?

Daniel Kaluuya 18:49 Um, what specifically? What-

Jay Shetty 18:51 Well, you talked about what... From what I've heard, what you've talked about is like, it took you a long time to realize that you felt darker than the people that you were around.

Daniel Kaluuya 19:00 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 19:00 And so there was this whole... And you felt that they made you feel bad for that.

Daniel Kaluuya 19:04 When I got into secondary, and that was a more predominantly Black school-

Jay Shetty 19:08 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 19:08 ... is when I realized that I was darker than the average Black person that I grew up around or I was around, and then they would tell me. It was a kind of culture shock, but then I was darker than a lot of people in my family.

Jay Shetty 19:21 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 19:21 So, then it was even, that made me feel a bit different. And so then I was just like, "Oh yeah, I don't really know what's going on." And then, but then obviously, like, at that age, you're going through racism, but you're in a predominantly Black space, so you're not... You're going through colorism, and then, like, you go out of it, and then, I mean, like, got good grades and start going to a different school, like a more middle-class, upper-class school. Then you deal with, you see racism.

Jay Shetty 19:47 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 19:48 But you're seeing people do things, you're like, "What's that? That's weird. What's that? What's weird?" You haven't really felt like you're, you've got the right to go, "Oh, that's that."

Jay Shetty 19:56 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 19:56 Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 19:57 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 19:57 And you ain't got no one to talk to that understands what's happening.

Jay Shetty 19:59 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 20:01 Then it just started getting a bit more. The more, the more, like, kind of more into the workforce, the more that you would face it.

Jay Shetty 20:07 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 20:07 And the more asleep people are to it-

Jay Shetty 20:10 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 20:11 .. and you gotta call it out. What I used to say is that, like, um, 'cause one time, like, I was getting, not getting roles 'cause of acting and that, 'cause of... And then I was like, "Oh, yeah." I was making all these excuses, and then my agent at the time, who was Irish, and he was like, "Yeah, well, Daniel, it's 'cause you're Black." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "It's 'cause you're Black." He said, "It doesn't have to tell anyone else you should be getting it. It doesn't matter. You should be Black." And I was like... And I was, like, allowed to kinda, like, accept it, and then I would tell people it was racism, and they kinda would- wouldn't believe me. Then when I said, "Oh, my Irish agent said it," they're like, "Oh, is it?" So I realized in- when you're Black, you feel you don't have the disease, but you feel the dis- symptoms, but you're not allowed to diagnose it. It has to be someone outside of yourself-

Jay Shetty 21:00 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 21:00 ... that says, "That's what's happening," and that means it's more valid. Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 21:04 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 21:05 Usually the people that it's come from.

Jay Shetty 21:07 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 21:07 Because you're seen as too biased because you have the symptoms. So that's what I realized about it. Like-

Jay Shetty 21:13 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 21:13 .. you're just going through it, you're like, "Oh, right, that's kinda nuts. I can't really even say it." And that's why subconsciously you're going, "Oh yeah, if I say it, they'll go, "Oh, he's saying, oh, he's got a chip on his shoulder." That's what it is. You've got a chip on your shoulder, bro. Man, you know what?

Daniel Kaluuya 21:24 Chips on my shoulder, bro. Like, do you know what I mean? It's nuts. Like-

Jay Shetty 21:26 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 21:27 ... it's nuts what people saying. It's like it's common, and people are like... And so I think that's what it is. You're, like, just n- navigating-

Jay Shetty 21:34 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 21:34 .. all of those things. Like, so it took me a w- long, it took me a long time to figure it out.

Jay Shetty 21:39 Yeah. I-

Daniel Kaluuya 21:40 I'm still figuring it out.

Jay Shetty 21:41 Yeah, I feel like that's something that you don't ever figure out because it's like, I love how you described that. Never heard it described like that, but the idea of how because you have the symptoms, you can't be the one to diagnose it, but you can't be the one to express it, which feels so difficult because it's almost like this is my reality, but you need someone else to validate your reality.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:01 100%.

Jay Shetty 22:01 And that is a, that is a really interesting prison to live in.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:06 All right, cool. So I went with Jay, like-

Jay Shetty 22:07 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 22:07 ... what do you, what do you love in life?

Jay Shetty 22:08 What do I love? Football.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:09 Like, away from, like, your family. Like, what do you love?

Jay Shetty 22:12 Football.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:12 Football.

Jay Shetty 22:12 Love football.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:13 Imagine if I come out and go, "All right, Jay, why do people don't like football?"

Jay Shetty 22:16 Yeah, and I'd be like, "Yeah, I don't know."

Daniel Kaluuya 22:18 So when people go, "Why do people don't like Black people?" Why would I know?

Jay Shetty 22:22 Yeah. You don't know. Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:23 So then that's what I'm saying. It's like there's something... It's, it's a ba- it's gaslighting-

Jay Shetty 22:28 Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 22:29 ... at the same, 'cause it's like I don't... How am I supposed to? But then when I initiate it and say this has happened, I'm not believed.

Jay Shetty 22:35 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:36 But then I'm supposed to report about it when it's happening to me from there to justify what they're doing.

Jay Shetty 22:41 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:43 It's, it's a whole, like, it doesn't really make sense what's happening.

Jay Shetty 22:45 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:45 If I go, "This was happening", "No, that's not true." And then they, they'll have a whole l- lawyer or someone, uh, like a professor that has a whole dossier, and then now if he says it, 'cause he wrote 80 pages of waffle, they believe him.

Jay Shetty 22:58 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 22:58 But I told you. You're just saying that his wor- his word is worth more than mine.

Jay Shetty 23:04 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:04 And that, and that is racism.

Jay Shetty 23:06 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:08 I'll say this. It's not worth it. It's just not worth anything to you.

Jay Shetty 23:12 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:12 And I had to really learn that my word is worth something to me.

Jay Shetty 23:16 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:16 To me. And so then, like, I just, I just move like that. So I just don't really, like, kind of engage with the narratives 'cause it's just people just making up things that protect what they like about you.

Jay Shetty 23:26 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:27 'Cause you only... Things are kept because they like something about you. 'Cause if they didn't, they would get rid of it.

Jay Shetty 23:31 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:31 They would change the culture. You've seen how they change other things.

Jay Shetty 23:34 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:34 You change the culture.

Jay Shetty 23:35 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 23:36 There's something that it, it protects, I feel.

Jay Shetty 23:38 Yeah. I find, when I'm talking to you, I find that you've kind of really worked on, like, making peace with how you feel about yourself and, and how you feel about your views and how you feel about your art. Like, there seems to be this autonomy and independence in saying, as you were saying earlier, even when you were given a bad grade, you were like, "No, no, but I know this is good." And even what you were saying before where you were like, it gave you space to fail in private because you were like, "No, no, I know that I'm working on myself." So it feels like you've really worked on having this internal peace. How hard is that as your career kinda does the opposite, right? So it's like you're getting more and more focused on giving yourself peace, which is an amazing skill. Like, I'm, I'm loving to see it on display, and I know everyone's gonna appreciate seeing it. And at the same time, it's like you're, you're doing bigger and bigger things, so you're more and more exposed to other people's opinions. How have you managed to or, or how are you managing to continue to kinda hold onto that core of that nine-year-old and that 15-year-old?

Daniel Kaluuya 24:41 I thought, I mean, like, y- I think I'll always just have it. Like, it's just mine.

Jay Shetty 24:45 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 24:45 So it's not something... But I think It's like what happens is, is how I, I've done things that causes a ruckus or chaos-

Jay Shetty 24:52 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 24:53 ... in my sphere. And so like you just gotta accept that you're a bit chaotic.

Jay Shetty 24:57 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 24:58 You know what I mean? It's like, it's, I mean, it's like-

Jay Shetty 25:00 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 25:00 ... there's something... That doesn't mean that's you.

Jay Shetty 25:02 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 25:03 But there's something there that you have to look at if it's nuts-

Jay Shetty 25:05 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 25:05 ... like that. You have to look, "All right, cool. Like where, where is that? Like what's that?" And then you get closer to being cool with it or then it will quiet down.

Jay Shetty 25:14 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 25:15 But there's something that I'm not looking at. If it goes a bit mad-

Jay Shetty 25:17 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 25:17 ... or you care too much what people think. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like you have to accept that. Just go, "All right, cool. What, why is that? What's happening there?"

Jay Shetty 25:24 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 25:25 I feel like, um... But yeah, no, it's, um, it's been, the last few years have been, it's been wild.

Jay Shetty 25:29 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 25:30 But like it's been like I've done it in a very quiet way. [chuckles]

Jay Shetty 25:33 Mm. Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 25:34 But it's been wi- it's been wild in the sense like what happens and, and stuff like that. But that's what happens, the, like the narratives that I've been a part of are powerful.

Jay Shetty 25:41 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 25:42 And like, and the decisions I made to like stand on things that I believe in or even basically like a lot of the... I know what I like, and I like what I like, and if people don't like it, I'm like, "Ah, well, you're entitled." Well, I would wanna... If I care, I would wanna know why you don't like it. But I like what I like, and I, I stand on the decisions I m- I make, and I think then that spreads. I don't know, maybe it's-

Jay Shetty 26:03 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 26:03 ... that's a bit different to what, how people handle their careers in this day and age. So I don't know, but that's just me guessing.

Jay Shetty 26:10 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 26:10 I don't have a big landscape on what every decision people are making.

Jay Shetty 26:15 Of course. Yeah. What does it feel like to see some of those like 9-year-old, 15-year-old dreams come true? Like what does that feel like in reality? Like what does that actually look like?

Daniel Kaluuya 26:25 Calm. Normal. I knew it. Um, I know it. Like if I... Minute I get the idea, I'm like, "All right, cool. There. Boom."

Daniel Kaluuya 26:36 That's when I get excited. "All right, we're on. Now let's work to it." So when you're working to it, when you get there, it costs so much, you know? It costs so much. If you want something that like you really want, the price is so high that you're just a bit like, "All right, cool."

Jay Shetty 26:54 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 26:54 You're not seeing it as for the sheen that you saw in the perspective at 15, at 9. You're seeing it, "All right, that cost me this, that cost me that. I had to wake up 4:00 AM here. I had to do this, that there. I had to grind here. I had to do this night shoot. I had to do this. I had to..." You're seeing the cost it takes. You're feeling the cost it takes. So when you land and arrive, "All right, cool. There was turbulence."

Jay Shetty 27:14 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 27:14 "Oh, you got here." "I did." You just did.

Jay Shetty 27:18 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 27:18 Do you know what I'm saying? And, and then, but the excitement comes from like feeling like you can do it before you see all of it.

Jay Shetty 27:24 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 27:24 If that makes sense. Like the full kind of picture, 'cause you're only seeing the good, that's why you go there. But then it, every- like everything's balanced. That's all it is.

Jay Shetty 27:32 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 27:32 It's not like it's bad. It's just like, it's everything.

Jay Shetty 27:35 Yeah. Yeah, I love, I love that statement you just said, like you only see the good, that's why you go there. And then when you go there, you see all of it, but you realize that all of it was part of getting you there. It was never possible to get there without everything else.

Daniel Kaluuya 27:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 27:49 Like it was never-

Daniel Kaluuya 27:50 And, and part of it, you, you're only seeing the good 'cause that like entire... It's like what people say about sex, like how sex is like a way for your genes to keep going.

Jay Shetty 27:58 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 27:58 Like it's a way, it's like a create... The body has created this organism to keep going, so then you have this pleasure out of it or... So then it's like, like, it's kinda like, oh, you go, "Oh, yeah." And then when you go in there, I'm not, not saying sex is bad. Sex is great. [both laughing] But like-

Jay Shetty 28:12 There you go then

Daniel Kaluuya 28:13 ... you go, you go the full of it. You go and see the fullness of it. I find that when you go on those journeys, yeah, there's something about the badness in it that you have to face in yourself.

Jay Shetty 28:22 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:22 And it's whether you take the lesson, and if you don't take that lesson, you will meet it again.

Jay Shetty 28:27 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:28 You will meet it again until it lets you go. And then when you meet it and accept it, sometimes you realize, or I've realized, that like, "Oh, I didn't even want that good to know."

Jay Shetty 28:37 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:37 Part of it was me figuring out something in me that I did not really know that I wanted to figure out.

Jay Shetty 28:42 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:42 Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 28:43 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:43 But like it was m- probably the majority of it.

Jay Shetty 28:45 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:45 Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 28:46 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:47 And the sex impulse tells you, "Go there."

Jay Shetty 28:49 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 28:49 Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, "Do that."

Jay Shetty 28:51 When did you get... You said when you have an... I'm gonna do a little bad impersonation, but you're like, when you get the idea, it's like, boom. So where's the, uh, where's the-

Daniel Kaluuya 28:59 [laughs] Jeffrey from Wood Green.

Jay Shetty 29:00 Yeah, yeah. Jeffrey from Wood Green.

Daniel Kaluuya 29:01 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:02 Where's the, uh... When did you get the idea for The Kitchen? And like, 'cause I know that project's taken a long time to come to life, right?

Daniel Kaluuya 29:08 Yeah, yeah. I-

Jay Shetty 29:08 Like eight years or something. Like seven?

Daniel Kaluuya 29:10 Uh, um, uh, 10.

Jay Shetty 29:11 10. Yeah. All right. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 29:12 10. Like I got the idea in a barber shop in Holloway. I was sitting in the barber shop, and then like these guys were talking about taking stuff, like these heists, a million-pound heists, and this, that, and the other, and they were talking.

Jay Shetty 29:24 Oh, they were talking about actually doing this heist?

Daniel Kaluuya 29:25 Yeah, yeah. They were just chatting. I'm like, "These guys are talking." And then like they said... And they were say- something was on the TV, and they were like, "Yeah, that's the, that's us. That's us. Let's have a do that." And then I was like, "Right, that's..." And then in that moment, I was like, "I'd love to see that film" of people like going into like diamond show- stores and like robbing stuff. I was like, "I'd love to see that." Just in the barber shop chilling, 'cause like my barber just kept on putting appointments before me even though I made an appointment, so I'd be sitting there the whole half a day.

Jay Shetty 29:49 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 29:50 And then like, so then I was like, "Oh, I'd love to see that." And then like, and then I never saw him again, ever. Then I was like, "What happened to him?" And he's like, "Yeah, he went..." And then like I was like, "Oh." And I couldn't shake it. I was like, it was thrilling, but there was a cost. And I was only like 22 in a barber shop, like chilling. I was like, "There's something about that." Then I did a bit more research, and I realized that like, oh, they're getting paid like... They're paying, stealing millions of pounds worth of diamonds, but they're getting paid £200. I was like, "There's something in that." That says where we're at in this world-

Jay Shetty 30:31 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 30:31 ... and what's going on in London, where they don't even know the value of what they're robbing. They think it's worth 200.

Jay Shetty 30:37 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 30:38 And they're willing to risk their life and their freedom for it. I wanna know what's, what's going on there. And I just kept digging. So I just would go down there, and then, then I'm like, like where I grew up, like how we grew up, like obviously you do like the professional jobs, like you do like, um- Harry and Paul and The Psychovilles and them, that. But then I would have like a whole other career where we just make YouTube videos-

Jay Shetty 30:57 Mm-hmm

Daniel Kaluuya 30:57 ... and we just create with people and just make stuff. So then that, that was a time when like, 'cause I wrote on Skins and stuff, and there was a time when they were like, "Oh, everyone wanted to do meetings and talk about what my ideas were." And I was like, "I don't... I'm tired of these coffees, man." Like, and so then I was like, "All right." And I got the team together, um, a director and a producer and that, that we was, that we was building with, and then like, um, and then I was like, "Oi, let's just make it." So I asked my barber, um, who's in the film actually.

Jay Shetty 31:25 Oh, sick.

Daniel Kaluuya 31:25 And I... Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:25 I love that.

Daniel Kaluuya 31:26 He's in the film. He's in the film, and then I asked him-

Jay Shetty 31:27 Is he a barber in the film?

Daniel Kaluuya 31:29 No, no, no.

Jay Shetty 31:29 No, no, no. Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 31:29 He's just in the film constantly. He's one of the-

Jay Shetty 31:31 Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 31:31 ... he's one of the residents. He's one of the main residents. But this is why, this is why. So I went to the barber. He, he closed on Wednesdays. So I was like, "Oi, bro, like, I beg you, let's use your shop." 'Cause I wanted... Basically, it started as Reservoir Dogs in a barbershop.

Jay Shetty 31:44 All right. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 31:44 So then I was like, "Oi, like, can we use your shop to shoot?" He's like, "Yeah, yeah, of course, of course, of course, of course, of course." Then I, I like paying people. He said I have it free. I was like, "Nah, man, like, please." And then he was like, obviously didn't have a budget. I think we like £200 each, and we just shot something, and got new actors, and that was why they need crew. And then like, and he was like, "Don't cut me out of this. Don't cut me out of this." I was like, "No, brother, I've got you." He's like, "Nah, when it blows-

Jay Shetty 32:06 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 32:07 ... keep me in. I need to stay involved." I said, "No, I got you, I got you." So that's how it kinda started, and then it evolved.

Jay Shetty 32:13 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 32:14 It kept on evolving from then.

Jay Shetty 32:16 Wow. I love that. I love hearing how, like, ideas come about, and I appreciate that you have that memory. Did you actually sit down with people who'd done those heists?

Daniel Kaluuya 32:23 Mm.

Jay Shetty 32:23 Or did you meet some people-

Daniel Kaluuya 32:24 Mm

Jay Shetty 32:24 ... who'd actually gone through with it?

Daniel Kaluuya 32:25 I met the guys. I met the guy, I met a couple guys that did stuff like that, and it was just like, I think I went there and it was like pretty, it was pretty simple what they actually was. But it's like,

Daniel Kaluuya 32:34 for me, it was about the mentality.

Jay Shetty 32:35 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 32:36 Which I knew, I understood, but it was like kind of being around the people and understanding, just b- like hanging with them, hanging with them, and the people that have... Like in the news and, and that's why I said I chilled with them, and they was like, "This, this, that, and the other." But they, I think them kind of guys, like, they un- we understand each other, 'cause I kinda go into the industry like, "All right, listen, I'm just doing what I want." Like, the, "I'm just gonna go in there," and I think that's how they... That's the energy that they have. Um, but yeah, no, they were, they're interesting people.

Jay Shetty 33:06 Well, what did you learn about them? Do you feel they were just, they're just trying to survive, or they're trying to, or they're sold a dream, or what's kinda motivating them to do that?

Daniel Kaluuya 33:15 I don't know. I think they just, they, they just do it [laughs] 'cause like it's just what-

Jay Shetty 33:19 That's what, that's what they know

Daniel Kaluuya 33:19 ... it's part of their operation. It's what they do. It's what they know. It's their reality. It's their pos- it's that's what they know.

Jay Shetty 33:23 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 33:24 That's how they've l- chose to vibe, whether they've been the older brother or been the only boy in the family, or whatever the reason is that they've gone down that path, they did it, and they have a level of intelligence.

Jay Shetty 33:33 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 33:34 That means they've been able to organize an operation-

Jay Shetty 33:36 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 33:36 ... and like talk to people and communicate and this and that, and like, I s- like they, they're like... But that's, they're just doing that in this realm.

Jay Shetty 33:45 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 33:45 You know what I'm saying? It's like I found, I found how they think more interesting than what they do.

Jay Shetty 33:51 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 33:51 And that's what I wanted to explore in this, is like e- exposing the thought and the principles behind how they live and what their values are, and why and how it's connected to... And if they, people are really true to it. So basically like someone like Staples in the film, he doesn't do anything criminal to per se, yeah? But it's like he has the mentality and the values. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like he's this guy. He thinks the enemy isn't the other postcode or the other block. The enemy is the system, and he engages with them how he, how we would see a, a kid like that engage with the other block-

Jay Shetty 34:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 34:29 ... and the postcode. He goes, "It's you lot," and he just engages them like that. But that's a powerful energy.

Jay Shetty 34:37 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 34:37 It's a powerful mentality. It's a leader.

Jay Shetty 34:39 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 34:39 So I kind of was just interested in that and how those people think, and how that can be, how can motor and then add an, uh, a kind of like a cultural identity.

Jay Shetty 34:49 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 34:49 And I felt that kinda like London had that energy of like, "Bro, we do what we want," like, if you're really from there, if you're really from there. And I feel you have that energy, but you're just a monk and that. You know what I mean? You're like zen. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 34:59 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 34:59 So, but, but you're like, "Hey, it's me."

Jay Shetty 35:01 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 35:02 But it's that thing you're like, but you're doing it for good r- things. But it's like, I think London is a s- I always felt London was a special city.

Jay Shetty 35:07 Yeah, I do too.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:08 A, a very special city, but our, sometimes our humility-

Jay Shetty 35:11 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 35:12 ... and the class ceiling-

Jay Shetty 35:15 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 35:15 ... yeah, stops us from like doing what we wanna do.

Jay Shetty 35:21 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:21 Like people, "Oh, there's a glass ceiling," and I'm like, "It's made of glass."

Jay Shetty 35:24 [laughs] You can break it, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:26 It's like-

Jay Shetty 35:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 35:27 ... it's not like-

Jay Shetty 35:27 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 35:27 ... it's not like it's made of, "Get something."

Jay Shetty 35:29 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:30 You know what I mean? And I feel like what I was around was basically, what I grew up around was that mentality.

Jay Shetty 35:35 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:35 Of we're gonna make it work. We're gonna make it happen, and not in an arrogant way, we just... 'Cause we want it to happen.

Jay Shetty 35:40 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:40 We just, we mean it. It's sincerity.

Jay Shetty 35:42 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:42 We mean it.

Jay Shetty 35:43 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:43 Like we just want it to happen.

Jay Shetty 35:45 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 35:45 And like, I mean, it's more than us, and I feel like London... And then I've researched about London, about The Blitz, and how the mentality of like, um, when London was bombed-

Jay Shetty 35:54 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 35:54 ... for the first time, how like people were scared, and then after it, they were like, "Oh, we survived."

Jay Shetty 36:00 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 36:01 And how it built a resilience in the city.

Jay Shetty 36:03 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 36:03 Like a kind of resilience that I feel like is still here.

Jay Shetty 36:07 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 36:07 But because of the class system and that, that keep calm, carry on mentality, we kinda squash it, and like, like are very like regional with how, with our dreams.

Jay Shetty 36:19 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 36:19 We think, "Oh yeah, if we got this, then that's enough," because said person said, "That's all you can get."

Jay Shetty 36:25 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 36:25 Who is this person? That's how I feel. Who, who are you-

Jay Shetty 36:29 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 36:29 ... to limit me? That doesn't make sense to me.

Jay Shetty 36:32 Yeah. Do you think people are scared to dream, or is it scared to, or they're accepting a limit? Or what, what, how would you articulate it?

Daniel Kaluuya 36:39 One of, one of the big moments I had, one of the big breakthroughs I feel in the script was like randomly like, so like I think Black Mirror was like 22. Four years later, like it blew in America, yeah?

Jay Shetty 36:49 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's huge.

Daniel Kaluuya 36:50 So then like-

Jay Shetty 36:50 It still... I mean-

Daniel Kaluuya 36:51 It's not, it went nuts in America

Jay Shetty 36:52 ... yeah, it's massive

Daniel Kaluuya 36:52 Netflix wasn't ex- didn't-

Jay Shetty 36:53 It's massive

Daniel Kaluuya 36:53 ... wasn't a thing.

Jay Shetty 36:54 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 36:54 So I did the, I did this TV show, and then, uh, and then, um, I did a thing that it crossed over in America, so I was in New York And then like, um, it was years after I did it. It was Mayweather-Pacquiao fight-

Jay Shetty 37:06 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 37:06 ... around then.

Jay Shetty 37:07 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 37:07 So I, I had a photo shoot, so I stayed at the photo shoot, and then I was like, "Oh, I'll go watch the fight here." So I stayed in this flat in Bed Stuy, and I was chilling. And then I was just on... I was in New York. Like I was in New York, going to... I went to the church, went to the brunch. I was going everywhere. I was, I was rolling, went to the parties, went to everywhere. And then I was like, and I was, and then I was walking around, and there, there's a massive poster of Biggie in Brooklyn. And I looked at it, and I was like, "They really love themselves." This is someone that's come from there, and they've pushed that. I don't think London would... We wouldn't see our heroes of now on that pedestal, on that platform. We wouldn't see them as who they are majority of the time. Said, "Huh." I came back home, and I used to like go Cali pool. But I used to run from my place to go Cali pool. Uh, I used to get a lot of things from my jogs. So I'd run there. It's a 10-minute jog, and I would look around, I'm like, "The same demographic as New York. Literally same demographic. What's the difference?"

Jay Shetty 38:09 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 38:10 Why does New York feel like New York, New York, and then London feels... And I was just running, running around. I was like, "These guys don't believe in themselves. I'm gonna believe in myself." And I think my career shifted, but also I think the... I just feel I want that for London.

Jay Shetty 38:25 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 38:26 I want that. We're global. We're playing world-class rent.

Jay Shetty 38:28 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 38:29 I want world-class results from the city. Do you know what I'm saying? So like, but for whatever reason, we're just like going, "No, no, no." It's like, I just don't, I don't believe in that. I don't believe in that. And I feel like New Yorkers just decide-

Jay Shetty 38:41 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 38:41 ... we're this. And I think if Londoners decide we're this, I think everything will flourish, and I think a lot of it came from that. If we're being honest about who we are, as opposed to kind of hiding-

Jay Shetty 38:52 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 38:52 ... and kind of suppressing and kinda pr- this keep calm, har- carry on sheen that we're pretending to be, where we're actually, as a culture, very quite cocky-

Jay Shetty 39:02 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 39:02 ... or sure about who we are, what we stand for. Even the fact that like when you grow up in London, like you really still stay hanging out with your friends that you grew up with.

Jay Shetty 39:10 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 39:11 Do you know what I'm saying? It's like-

Jay Shetty 39:11 Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 39:12 ... your, your, it's your... Because that's what it is. You know what I mean? And, and, um, that's a, there's a level of conviction and values-

Jay Shetty 39:18 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 39:19 ... that I feel we're not honest

Daniel Kaluuya 39:20 about publicly, and I want, I wanted more f- I wanted more for London.

Jay Shetty 39:24 Yeah. I love that, man. I, I relate to so much of that as someone who considers myself through and through London, born, raised-

Daniel Kaluuya 39:30 Mm

Jay Shetty 39:30 ... university, school, everything.

Daniel Kaluuya 39:32 Mm.

Jay Shetty 39:32 All my best friends are here, you know. And obviously I don't live here anymore, but when I'm back, it's like, to me, yeah, London raised me, and you have that kind of affinity to this city-

Daniel Kaluuya 39:41 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 39:41 ... in such a special way. But yeah, I, I feel similar to you that I feel often people think if you, if you dream bigger or you think beyond or you are pursuing the limitless, it's almost seen as less than. It's seen as like, "No, no, no. Don't, don't try that. Like that's, it's not worth it. It's not worth it." Or when we feel we have to present ourselves to others, we're like, "No, no, you shouldn't even have to do that. You should, it should just happen." And it's like, well, no, sometimes it takes a bit of work and convincing and pushing the boundaries, as you're saying as well.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:16 Mm.

Jay Shetty 40:16 And so I can relate to, relate to all of that.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:18 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 40:18 And, and I feel the same way. I feel the same way. London is fully global, and London has so much incredible talent in all these different industries.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:25 100%.

Jay Shetty 40:26 And I think it needs to be shared globally too.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:28 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 40:28 We don't need to stay just here.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:30 Yeah. No, I don't, I don't think so.

Jay Shetty 40:31 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:31 I think, I f- I think we've got a lot to say, and we've got an interesting perspective, and I just wanna, I want more of it. Like a lot of the time I do things, I was like, "Come on then." And I may mess it up, but at least I, at least I went for it.

Jay Shetty 40:44 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:45 At least I went for it, and I, and I believed in it, and then hopefully someone after me refine it, so then I can learn something and then I'll go fur- like, do you know what I mean? It's like that's the whole point.

Jay Shetty 40:54 Yeah, yeah. Just passing on the baton.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:55 Pa- that's the whole point.

Jay Shetty 40:56 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 40:56 Like, um, just go for it. It's, it's, it's not about you, it's about your ideas.

Jay Shetty 41:00 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 41:01 And what you can hear and what you can let through.

Jay Shetty 41:03 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 41:03 That's what this is, man. And so, well, who, what you doing? Like what you listening to? What radio station you listening to? What ideas you letting out? That's how I see it.

Jay Shetty 41:11 Yeah. How do you get... I'm intrigued. I, I loved how you talked about how the idea for The Kitchen formed. How do you get curious and critique your own ideas? 'Cause I'm sure you have ideas popping at you all the time.

Daniel Kaluuya 41:25 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:25 How do you kind of like filter it down to be like, "Oh, this is an idea that I really love," versus, "Gonna park that. I'm gonna take that from here"? Like walk me through what's happening in your mind, 'cause I feel like when you do have a sh- idea that you're sure of and you go, "Yeah, that's the one," it seems so clear, but I'm guessing you have a million ideas before you get that.

Daniel Kaluuya 41:43 It's, it's, it's, it's clear when you know it's clear.

Jay Shetty 41:45 Yeah, yeah. That's what I mean.

Daniel Kaluuya 41:46 I think in that time it's like, b- in that, before the c- true clarity, you can't... It, it's like you just can't shake it off.

Jay Shetty 41:53 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 41:54 You can't stop thinking about it. You can't stop thinking about it. Can't stop thinking about it. You keep going, you keep going, keep going. And then it goes, "Oh, I got, I gotta do it." And what I really, truly... Oh, there's loads of ideas, but like, but then I read like, like loads of ideas, but then like someone ends up doing it.

Jay Shetty 42:10 Mm-hmm. [chuckles]

Daniel Kaluuya 42:11 Like, do you know what I mean? It's like-

Jay Shetty 42:11 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 42:11 ... and then you're like... And I, when someone ends up doing it, I get really happy. I'm like, "Ah, cool. I don't have to do it."

Jay Shetty 42:16 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 42:18 They did it. Like I don't, I don't, I don't see it as mine. I see it as what I hear and what I can see. Like I think Noel Gallagher said in an interview one time, like Desert Island Discs and that, he said like, they asked him about like on "Wonderwall", one of them songs he made. They were like, "What's it like?" He said, "It's like fishing. And you go in there by the shore and you're just waiting, and you're just waiting, and you're just whoa." You feel me? Or like-

Jay Shetty 42:39 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 42:39 ... or Michael Jackson described it one time where like, like he was saying how like he was writing, he was writing a song, and they were like, "Oh, Michael, like go bed. Like you're tired." He's like, "I can't." They said, "Michael, go bed." Like, "Can't." Like, "Why?" He's like, "I can't because if I go bed, God will give the song to Prince."

Jay Shetty 42:57 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 42:57 And they... Like, like you get it. Like it's not like- It's not mine.

Jay Shetty 43:03 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 43:03 It's what my expertise, my hours, my perspective, my, um... I may have an idea, but I'm not the right, um, haven't had the right upbringing to really actualize it. Like, it's all these factors that come to you letting it through.

Jay Shetty 43:20 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 43:20 Do you know what I'm saying? So, like I could see things, I go, "Yeah, that's a great idea," but I'm like, I'm not... That's not f-

Jay Shetty 43:25 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 43:25 I'm not sure if I'm able to give that. So a lot of time when I act and that, how I define it a lot of time is there's stuff I wanna say and there's stuff I wanna help people say. Acting is me helping someone say something, because I'm like, "Oh, I really wanna say that too, but I haven't got time-

Jay Shetty 43:38 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 43:38 ... to like get there."

Jay Shetty 43:40 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 43:40 Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 43:41 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 43:41 So I'm like, "All right, cool. I'll just... I'll help you say it 'cause I believe in it."

Jay Shetty 43:44 Wow, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 43:44 So like, while this is like, oh, okay, now stuff I've realized, oh, I'm, I'm the one that is supposed to say this.

Jay Shetty 43:50 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 43:51 I can say this. And then you have to check yourself and go, how, how much are you thinking about yourself? How big is your mentality or like, it could be limiting or... Like, you mean it's like, it's a whole process. It... That's why it's taken me time. But I think

Daniel Kaluuya 44:03 when I did Skins, when I wrote on Skins, I had a thing that where in my career, like I was like, "All right, cool. Do I wanna be a great singer or do I wanna sing great songs?" Yeah. And what I think my career shifted when I was like, "I wanna sing great songs." And then I realized in that process, you become a great singer. So when Skins, when you're inheriting characters, you're singing a great song essentially.

Jay Shetty 44:21 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 44:21 And then I realized in this process, I've had to learn how to make a song.

Jay Shetty 44:25 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 44:25 Do you know what I'm saying? How I had to create a character, how I had to create relationship design, how I had to create structure. Like, you have to learn all that in order to get it to the standard that I like.

Jay Shetty 44:34 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 44:35 Do you know what I'm saying? That, that-

Jay Shetty 44:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 44:36 ... it's not you can release it, but I wouldn't 'cause I just, I have a high standard for myself and the stuff I like.

Jay Shetty 44:43 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 44:43 And I want me and my friends to like what I make or what I help someone make.

Jay Shetty 44:49 Mm. I, I love what you said, man. Uh, and it's so interesting, like I'm, when I'm listening to someone speak on the podcast, I'm always just trying to like sense like what energy kinda connects everything they're saying. And every time you speak, and every time... The way you answer stuff is, is counterintuitive in a good way because I hear peace and calm through all of it. Like, even for you to just say right now that when someone makes something that I had an idea about, you accept that with peace. That, oh, that's not my idea. It wasn't meant to be mine. Where a lot of us see someone make an idea come that we maybe one day had randomly, and we're like, "They did my idea. Like, I wish, you know, I could've been the person," or whatever. We often feel a bit of competitiveness, comparison, and you have actually the opposite where it's a sense of peace and like, actually that's great for them, good for them and-

Daniel Kaluuya 45:34 I'm happy they made it-

Jay Shetty 45:35 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 45:35 ... 'cause I wanna see it.

Jay Shetty 45:36 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 45:36 I wanna see it.

Jay Shetty 45:37 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 45:38 Like, [chuckles] like I wanna see it. Like, a- and it's like, it's the reality of like, oh, yeah, to be, to where like I'm the one to make the idea in that certain kinda level, that cost a lot.

Jay Shetty 45:47 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 45:48 Like, so if someone does it and they wanted to pay the price, I'm gonna sit front row. I'm me a fan of it.

Jay Shetty 45:53 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 45:53 Do you know what I'm saying? Like, back then I'd buy the DVD. Do you know what I'm saying? I, I would like, I would support it 'cause I'm just happy it exists.

Jay Shetty 45:59 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 45:59 I'm just happy... I just want things to exist. I think the world that we kinda come into is really fake. [laughs] Everyone just saying, "This is this, this is that." I'm like, you... It's just people decided that. I just decided something different.

Jay Shetty 46:11 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:12 And I think other people just decide something different. And it's, and I love seeing people make decisions.

Jay Shetty 46:16 Mm. I know, I know you know this, and I hope you know this, that is beautiful, man. That, that is, that mindset is, is like top-notch. That's a, that's another level of thinking.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:25 Um, I wouldn't see it that way.

Jay Shetty 46:27 All right.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:27 But I hear you. I accept that.

Jay Shetty 46:28 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:28 I'm learning how to say thank you.

Jay Shetty 46:29 I'm just sharing it with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:30 [laughs] Appreciate that.

Jay Shetty 46:31 I'm just saying it to you. I, I, I love that because I think if we could all live in that way where we could all be happy for what bringing things into existence-

Daniel Kaluuya 46:39 Yeah, man

Jay Shetty 46:39 ... whether it's brought by us or brought by others, that's, that's a beautiful state to live in.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:43 To make something that doesn't exist to exist is incredible.

Jay Shetty 46:46 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:47 I think it's insane.

Jay Shetty 46:48 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 46:48 So it's like, so I see how this mentality back in the day when you just forgot, I was like, "Everyone thought I was nuts" or whatever. But like, but like, be like, when someone said, "Oh, you can't do this," I'm like, "A man and a woman have sex, yeah, and they make a baby." That is so incredible.

Jay Shetty 47:02 Mm. It's insane. [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 47:08 It's like, do you know what I... Like I just, like I just... Don't you think that's the most insane-

Jay Shetty 47:12 Yeah, it's insane. But we kinda, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 47:13 ... that's really difficult to ha-

Jay Shetty 47:14 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 47:14 Like it's really difficult.

Jay Shetty 47:15 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 47:15 For us, it's, it's a really difficult thing.

Jay Shetty 47:16 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 47:17 It's a difficult process.

Jay Shetty 47:18 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 47:18 There's all these other thousand guys that are trying to get in there too. [laughs] Do you know what I'm saying? And you're coming in like, "Hey, I'm here." Like I just, I just... It's, I don't know. I, I, it makes me... I celebrate simple things.

Jay Shetty 47:31 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 47:31 Like I remember at, at school I used to look up in the sky. [laughs] I'm real... I was, I can't lie, this interview is making me realize I was a special kid.

Jay Shetty 47:37 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 47:38 But I look at the sky and go, "Bro, like, don't you think it's sick that planes can fly?"

Jay Shetty 47:42 Yeah. But that is like-

Daniel Kaluuya 47:43 I remember like, it's so heavy.

Jay Shetty 47:45 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 47:45 It's so heavy. There's so many people. There's so many bags. What's going on?

Jay Shetty 47:50 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 47:50 Like I was just a guy playing in the playground like, "What's going on here? This is-

Jay Shetty 47:55 Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 47:55 ... this is wild."

Jay Shetty 47:56 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 47:56 And I just was ful- I just, just think that's one of the most amazing things ever, like.

Jay Shetty 48:00 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:00 That's why I always wanted to fly on the Concorde, and I never got round to it 'cause it got done by the time I got there.

Jay Shetty 48:03 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:04 But even at a fast... There was a faster one?

Jay Shetty 48:07 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:07 Wow. Like, do you know what I mean? It's just like-

Jay Shetty 48:09 Oh, yeah. To marvel at that

Daniel Kaluuya 48:10 ... it's a wow. Because it's common, it doesn't mean it's still not wow.

Jay Shetty 48:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:13 And I think because it, the, there's a lot of it, people then disregard its specialness because there's a lot of it.

Jay Shetty 48:19 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:19 I just don't do that.

Jay Shetty 48:21 Yeah. We l- yeah, we've lost that experience of awe and fascination when you have things that surprise you because-

Daniel Kaluuya 48:27 Yeah

Jay Shetty 48:27 ... everything around you is making the most difficult things look easy.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 48:31 AI, VR, like, I mean, today, you know, you could go on and on, like-

Daniel Kaluuya 48:34 Yeah

Jay Shetty 48:34 ... everything's becoming so accessible.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:36 Yeah. And the edutard, the edutard of this kitchen, we, we call it Is-land, when you're staying in Is.

Jay Shetty 48:42 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 48:43 This is what it is, like. And then like, so when you're in Is-land, that is

Daniel Kaluuya 48:48 amazing 'cause that, a big metal box that has 300 people with like 800 kilos of luggage going from San Francisco to London is incredible.

Jay Shetty 49:00 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 49:01 That is amazing And I just kinda w- I always go, "Oh, where am I? I'm in Islam. Am I there? Am I there?" Because then you're in just perception land or whatever you think it is, or whatever your past pain or whatever the, all this crap.

Jay Shetty 49:14 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 49:15 Not crap, it's valid. But like, you just stay in that-

Jay Shetty 49:19 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 49:19 ... is.

Jay Shetty 49:20 It's powerful. With your mindset and the amount of calm and peace there is in your life internally, internally, you're, you're, you're, you're thinking like a monk, honestly. Like-

Daniel Kaluuya 49:28 Oh, you say it? Yeah.

Jay Shetty 49:30 Yeah. Yeah, because it's-

Daniel Kaluuya 49:31 Gassing me up

Jay Shetty 49:31 ... it's the mindset piece, man.

Daniel Kaluuya 49:32 Gassing me.

Jay Shetty 49:32 It's, it's the mindset. I'm not gassing you up. It's the mindset piece. Like, you know, when I asked you... Every question I've asked you, the things that have come out of your mind, uh, your mouth, uh, peace and calm. And it's come naturally. It's not like you're trying to be zen. Like, it's just coming out 'cause that's where you're trying to live. And so that's what it means. Like, in the modern day where, you know, we're not trying to live a particular monk life in that sense externally, but there's a sense of peace within, there's a sense of calm within, and I love seeing it in other people. I always say, uh, one of the other people I saw it in during an interview was Kobe Bryant. Like, when I sat with him and I interviewed him, he had so much gravitas and so much calm and zen around him, and he wasn't spewing like verses or trying to sound, you know, spiritual. He wasn't, he wasn't doing that, same way as you're not doing that. But it was a natural part of that, about their presence.

Daniel Kaluuya 50:23 Yeah. I appreciate that.

Jay Shetty 50:23 And so it's just... So I, I, I, I respect it. I love seeing it in other people.

Daniel Kaluuya 50:26 Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Jay Shetty 50:28 Yeah, yeah. I mean that. Um, I wanna dive into, uh... And I love, I love this idea about what is and what isn't, and what could've been, what should've been, what, what would've been. And a lot of us live in that what if. If someone's listening right now, and they're listening to you, and I'm, I'm... I know this for a fact, anyone who's listened to you this far today, if you're still listening to the episode, which I know you are, I know that people are gonna be moved. I know people are gonna be inspired. I know there's a lot of people who are gonna be going, "Oh my God, I didn't know he'd been through all of that." And you know, like skins and like just writing and the challenges and the stress. What would you like people to know about you that maybe you think they don't know or, or understand about you that maybe you've never really been able to talk about or share or, or express?

Daniel Kaluuya 51:14 I don't know, 'cause I, I, I'm not, I don't... I struggle with like my perception.

Jay Shetty 51:18 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 51:18 Like, I don't really... 'Cause, 'cause a lot of the fame, it's not like I chose to be this famous.

Jay Shetty 51:24 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 51:25 It kinda came as a product of the work, and it was a surprise product.

Jay Shetty 51:29 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 51:29 Like I did a film and then a year later I was at the Oscars. You know what I mean? So it was like, it was like, "Whoa." Um, I'm not really... I think I get the vibe where I'm like, people don't get me in America anyway. And then in England, I think people do get me, but they still, 'cause they get me, they go, they don't understand how I've done it. Um, I'm not, I'm not really... I keep it real. I, I've learned how to not be as invested in how people perceive me.

Jay Shetty 51:55 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 51:55 But I just not invested in it, 'cause then you're consistently... Yeah, innit?

Jay Shetty 52:02 Like curating, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 52:02 Like to curate it. Like I've been there. It's like I'm not sitting there like man's holier than thou. Like I've been there, I've been in it, trying to ah, ah, ah, trying to look a certain way. You know what I mean? Like I, I was just like, "Well, was I happy?" No. So like, don't know. But if I, from you, if you wanna go ask questions and that, I'll be open to and I, I'll be able to elaborate. I would love to. Do you know what I'm saying? But for me, I don't go like... 'Cause every... Like if I've really engaged with people's mentality, I could not get to where I've got to.

Jay Shetty 52:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 52:30 I could not get to where I've got to. So that's what... A, a lot of that, a lot of that is in that.

Jay Shetty 52:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 52:35 Of like kinda being so like, "That's what I think."

Jay Shetty 52:39 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 52:40 Do you know what I'm saying? But I'm open-

Jay Shetty 52:42 No, no, no

Daniel Kaluuya 52:43 ... at the same time as well. Do you know what I'm saying? So-

Jay Shetty 52:44 No, no, no. I, I get what you're saying. And, and I don't, I don't, uh... You know, I think that it's, it's tricky because you're right that you can either get so lost in cultivating and crafting and curating how you're perceived, and then still people won't perceive you that way, even if you do all of that.

Daniel Kaluuya 53:00 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 53:01 Or you can kinda let it go and, and it kinda flows in its own direction, and then you've made peace with that, which, which I think is probably the healthier option because at least you can live and breathe.

Daniel Kaluuya 53:11 I, I'll give you an example, right?

Jay Shetty 53:12 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 53:12 So I was... I remember like I didn't really... Like I came in this game, like I didn't watch films. I watched like "Batman" and "Robin." You know what I'm saying? I'm not really, I'm just living life. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm a kid.

Jay Shetty 53:20 You're talking about Val Kilmer?

Daniel Kaluuya 53:21 Yeah, yeah. We're talking like, we're talking George Clooney.

Jay Shetty 53:23 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 53:23 Do you know what I'm saying? Like we're talking like that. Like just I'm watching life, like films that come out. You know what I mean? So when I got into the industry, it was like talking about this art house film, this art house film, this, this, this, that and the other. And I remember HMV had this deal where you can like buy £1, £2 films. So I used to buy loads of films, and I would just watch all the people that people spoke, spoke about. Like, like the legends like Meryl Streep, Denzel Lewis, like uh, Shane Meadows, Paddy Considine, like all these people that people were like around that time, around '07, that people were just obsessed about. Like I watch, I'm watching and then I would go, "Oh, like all right, cool. I watch your acting performance. All right, okay, that's... You're clearly really good at what you do, but so what? Like what for?" You know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 54:08 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 54:08 And I realized I cared more about that-

Jay Shetty 54:11 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 54:11 ... than how great you were at something that was aimless-

Jay Shetty 54:16 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 54:16 ... or purposeless. Then I realized great didn't mean anything. Being really great at your job, being really good didn't mean, it didn't mean it, it had no emotion to it. So that sometimes it's really great. Then I obviously I'd watched all those, that s- tho- those films, and I went for that.

Jay Shetty 54:33 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 54:34 And then what happens when you go for that, it's a bit of a prison, 'cause then you watch your work back and you're just critiquing yourself. You're not enjoying it. You're just critiquing, critiquing in your head, in your head, in your head, in your head. Then I had to go, "Yo, I can't keep doing this. I can't... Every time I do a job just kind of..." 'Cause I'm always, I always used to be that improv like think about the whole week. I would do an improv and the whole week I should've done this, I should've done that, I should've done this, this, this. All right, next week I'm gonna go this. I messed up that. And then, and I was like, "This isn't,

Daniel Kaluuya 55:02 this isn't enjoyable." And then I got to a place where I was like, "Oh, don't try and be good. Try and be honest." Like, what I say truth is what happened, honesty is how you feel about what happened.

Jay Shetty 55:14 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 55:14 So that's how I felt like. I was just like, "Yo, like this is how I f- this is how I feel like." The minute I go for something that's honest, I'll do something at work, and then a year later you watch it back, and it's, you're in a completely different space than you was a year ago, and you wouldn't d- have done it that way. But I just go, "That's how I felt."

Jay Shetty 55:32 Mm. That's the honesty at that point.

Daniel Kaluuya 55:34 That's how I felt. That's where I was at. I c- if I can't... It's not now. Time is as important as you. Like, it's not like the time is there. The time, like, the time where you was at got you there. Yeah, and a, a lot of jobs is like, "I'm the best person for the job after the job."

Jay Shetty 55:51 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 55:52 Do you know what I'm saying? It's like-

Jay Shetty 55:53 Yeah. [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 55:53 ... and you have to make peace-

Jay Shetty 55:54 'Cause the amount you grew, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 55:55 ... 'cause the amount you grew, 'cause you learned how to do it.

Jay Shetty 55:57 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 55:57 And now you go, "Oh, if you give me now"... And you, it's, it's like a annoying [chuckles] thing to be in.

Jay Shetty 56:03 [laughs]

Daniel Kaluuya 56:03 So, but it's like you have to go, "That's how I felt."

Jay Shetty 56:06 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 56:06 I was honest. If I was honest, I can always walk away and go put my head up. Like, that's just how I felt.

Jay Shetty 56:10 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 56:11 And so that's what I go for, like, in terms of everything. I go, "Yo, that's where I'm at, man. That's how I feel, man." Let's set...

Jay Shetty 56:17 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 56:17 Like, it's... And then, oh yeah, and if I say something different for you, they're like, "Well, you know." You know, I grew in it.

Jay Shetty 56:23 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 56:23 Like, it's not, it's like, 'cause like I went through something, and then like my mentality, my something shift. I changed my mind. So it's not, it's not like, um... That's, that's how-

Jay Shetty 56:32 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 56:32 ... really what I engage with now is just going, "Yo," like any other, like, micromanagement of my, my perception, [sighs] I'm too meticulous-

Jay Shetty 56:43 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 56:43 ... for me to really go in that lane.

Jay Shetty 56:45 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 56:45 'Cause then I will really micromanage it.

Jay Shetty 56:47 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 56:47 So then I was like, "Well, what's... Just be real." And then how, and people that get it will get it. People that don't, that's what they're supposed to do.

Jay Shetty 56:53 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 56:53 Do you know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 56:54 Yeah. I, I, I mean, I'm glad I asked that question 'cause I, I lo- I love where you took it, and I think what I'm intrigued by, by what you said is what is, what are the projects that you're now... And I don't mean specifics, like I don't need you to name stuff that you're working on, but what is it that you want your work to mean today as you are writing, as you're producing-

Daniel Kaluuya 57:12 Oh

Jay Shetty 57:12 ... as you're now in charge of the story? Obviously, you've been selective over roles you've played, but I mean now that you're telling your own stories, writing your own stories, producing them, which you've been doing since day one.

Daniel Kaluuya 57:23 Mm, mm, mm.

Jay Shetty 57:23 But now doing it at this level, what do you want it to mean? What do you want people to feel? What are the things you'd like people to feel?

Daniel Kaluuya 57:29 What I want people to feel? Yeah. I don't think I can manage

Daniel Kaluuya 57:32 it, yeah? Because that will rob them from their experience.

Jay Shetty 57:37 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 57:37 Right? But what I want people to feel about the stuff I make, whether writing, producing, directing, anything I do in my life, yeah, is to go... Someone to take it in, call their friend, and go, "Hey, have you seen this? This is mad." [chuckles] Like, and then, and then, and they get points from their friend-

Jay Shetty 58:00 [chuckles]

Daniel Kaluuya 58:01 ... because they have shared something-

Jay Shetty 58:04 Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 58:04 ... that... You know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 58:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:05 Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, when there's a song that's amazing-

Jay Shetty 58:07 Yeah, yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 58:07 ... and you're like, "This is mad."

Jay Shetty 58:09 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:09 And then now forever-

Jay Shetty 58:11 You're gonna rate that for them

Daniel Kaluuya 58:12 ... like you're going, "Oh, I introduced you to that."

Jay Shetty 58:14 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:14 Do you know what I'm saying? That you feel like, yeah, like I got that, like I want my work to feel like that.

Jay Shetty 58:20 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:20 I want it to feel to share it, to, there's an excitement. There's like a ka-ka-ka. There's a crackle to it. Like I want there to be like, I want it to be shareable 'cause I do think sometimes in a lot of work is there, there's stuff you share, there's stuff you don't.

Jay Shetty 58:31 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:31 It could be as good, as great as you want. There's stuff that you wanna share, there's stuff you don't wanna share.

Jay Shetty 58:34 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:35 There's a lot of depressing stuff I do not wanna share, but they are excellent.

Jay Shetty 58:38 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:38 It's incredible.

Jay Shetty 58:39 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:39 But you just kinda...

Jay Shetty 58:42 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:42 You know what I mean? And you take it what you take into, for whatever reason. And I do love the fact that people go, "Yo, this is, this makes me feel something. This makes me, this makes me wanna move." You know what it is? You know what it is? I wanna make music that makes people wanna dance.

Jay Shetty 58:54 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 58:54 And how I, what I mean by that is like, kinda like you can't intellectualize why someone dances.

Jay Shetty 59:00 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 59:00 Do you know what I'm saying? It's just they do, so they move.

Jay Shetty 59:02 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 59:03 Do you know what I mean? And I wanna just move people, move people to go, "I'm gonna do that," or, "I wanna do this," or like, "I wanna share this. I wanna, I wanna..." There's something that comes after it. That means you've... That's bigger than any adjective.

Jay Shetty 59:16 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 59:17 Do you know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 59:17 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 59:18 'Cause a lot of times, a lot of people's feelings are just adjectives. They're stuff that you say on Twitter.

Jay Shetty 59:23 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 59:23 They're not stuff that's, we are actually feeling.

Jay Shetty 59:25 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 59:26 So that's, that's where, that's where I'm at really.

Jay Shetty 59:28 I love that. Great answer, man. Great answer. I, the reason why I love that is when I start, when I first made my first ever video, and people said, "Why did you make it?" I said, "'Cause I wanted someone to send it to their friend and say, 'That's what we were talking about.'"

Daniel Kaluuya 59:39 Yeah, that's, that's me.

Jay Shetty 59:39 Like, "That's what we were talking about."

Daniel Kaluuya 59:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:40 And I didn't know how to, we didn't know how to... But that, that video helped explain-

Daniel Kaluuya 59:44 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes

Jay Shetty 59:45 ... what I was going through. But Daniel, you've been amazing. I've got a final five. We do this with every guest. These final five have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

Daniel Kaluuya 59:54 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:54 So Daniel, these are your final five. The first question is: what is the best advice you've ever heard, received, or given?

Daniel Kaluuya 1:00:00 I've got one professionally, but I've got one personally. I used to reject it as a kid, this advice, but now I'm older I get, the more I'm realizing how much... And my mom was always saying, "Everything matters."

Jay Shetty 1:00:10 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:00:10 "Everything, everything little matters." And I, and I would let out, I wouldn't focus on details. I wouldn't focus on details. And then now I'm older, I'm realizing the detail isn't about the detail. The detail's about what it says about you-

Jay Shetty 1:00:24 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 1:00:25 ... and how easily you can show up on everything else if you just practice simple details. And she goes, "Everything little matters." She says, "Everything little matters." I think that.

Jay Shetty 1:00:34 I love that. That's great, man. We never had that, and I fully agree. All right, question number two: what is the worst advice you've ever heard, received, or given?

Daniel Kaluuya 1:00:41 I can't remember specific-

Jay Shetty 1:00:42 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 1:00:43 ... but I can remember how it made me feel and how I reacted to it in my head-

Jay Shetty 1:00:47 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 1:00:47 ... when they said it, when they basically were just saying, "Accept less."

Jay Shetty 1:00:51 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:00:52 Basically, what the principle was. And I think I just erase it when people say that. They go, "You know, you're not supposed to like, you know, this or that person deserve..." Basically, they're basing that person deserves more.

Jay Shetty 1:01:03 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:03 I think everyone deserves more.

Jay Shetty 1:01:05 Mm. I love that.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:06 Do you know what I mean? It's not like I just believe-

Jay Shetty 1:01:08 Yeah, yeah. That's nice. Yeah

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:08 ... so if you decide that you want more, then you can get it. If you don't, then chill.

Jay Shetty 1:01:11 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:11 Do you know what I mean? It's not like... And I, I feel like when people are communicating, subconsciously communicating a hierarchy-

Jay Shetty 1:01:18 Mm-hmm

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:18 ... that they win out of, that doesn't benefit me. I just go, "You're chatting rubbish."

Jay Shetty 1:01:24 [chuckles]

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:25 But like, I co- it's that, it's... I think it's accept less.

Jay Shetty 1:01:29 Mm. Love that. All right, question number three, uh, what's the first thing you do when you wake up, and the last thing you do when you go to bed?

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:36 Pray, pray.

Jay Shetty 1:01:37 Hmm. What's the prayer?

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:39 Just thanks. Thanks. I re- I got into that. I used to do it as my mom as a kid. She made me read the Bible every night. Used to read the Proverb a day. You know how they got like 31 chapters in that?

Jay Shetty 1:01:52 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:01:52 I used to read it as a kid. And then, uh, I don't know, I got into a place, I was just like, "Nah, man." There was one time I had to audition, I really wanted this audition. I weren't really on them with that. And I really wanted this audition. I just prayed. I went, "Who am I chatting to? What is going on here?" Like, I was in New York. I remember I really wanted it.

Jay Shetty 1:02:13 [chuckles]

Daniel Kaluuya 1:02:14 I'm like, "Why did I feel to do that?" And I just ignored it and just kinda carried on my life. This is like 2016, 2015.

Jay Shetty 1:02:19 Yeah.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:02:19 I was like... And then, like, I think I got into a place and I was like, "You know what? It makes me just stay," phew.

Jay Shetty 1:02:26 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:02:27 Yeah, man. Thanks. Focus on what I thank, and like what I'm grateful for.

Jay Shetty 1:02:32 Mm.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:02:33 And then like humility, 'cause my ego can get wild sometimes, so teaches me how to just chill-

Jay Shetty 1:02:39 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 1:02:39 ... and, um, and listen to myself. Yeah, I think God's in you. I don't think it's God's above you. It's not Big Brother-

Jay Shetty 1:02:45 Mm

Daniel Kaluuya 1:02:45 ... like in '84.

Jay Shetty 1:02:47 Mm-hmm. I love that. I'm gonna take that as question four 'cause I followed it up. Fifth and final question, uh, if you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be?

Daniel Kaluuya 1:02:57 If you have been proven in one way, shape, or form to hate someone or a group of people, your punishment is to live with them for a year.

Jay Shetty 1:03:09 Hmm.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:03:11 Anyone, even like Twitter hate, anything. Go on in. You do your... That's like nine to five or whatever, boom, boom, boom. You gotta live with them for a year, and just being there. I think that's just off top. I really like-

Jay Shetty 1:03:26 Yeah, that's a great answer, man.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:03:28 Um-

Jay Shetty 1:03:28 Yeah, I like that a lot.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:03:29 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:03:29 I-

Daniel Kaluuya 1:03:30 That's, that's, that's what that is.

Jay Shetty 1:03:31 I like that you went there. That's a great answer. That's dope.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:03:34 There you go, bro. Appreciate that.

Jay Shetty 1:03:35 I know. Appreciate you, man.

Daniel Kaluuya 1:03:36 My guy.

Jay Shetty 1:03:37 Thank you so much. Thank you, man. If you loved this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.

Speaker 1:03:49 My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable of. The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength, I'm gaining wisdom, and I just wanna keep doing that