Relationship Coach Matthew Hussey: "There is no such thing as right person, wrong time!"

Matthew Hussey 0:00 We think that we're gonna be happy by getting a person, but you'll never be happy by getting a person that doesn't meet your needs. Doesn't matter how impressive you think they are. That's the danger, right? That's the trap people fall into. I've fallen into it. One of the world's leading dating and relationship coach. He has helped millions of people find love, Matthew Hussey.

Jay Shetty 0:17 We write people off at lightning speed. They may have a wisdom that you never picked up on.

Matthew Hussey 0:23 The reason so many people never reach the point of real relationship is because-

Jay Shetty 0:30 Hey, everyone. I've got some huge news to share with you. In the last 90 days, 79.4% of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are not subscribed to this channel. There's research that shows that if you want to create a habit, make it easy to access. By hitting the subscribe button, you're creating a habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed. This would also mean the absolute world to me, and help us make better, bigger, brighter content for you and the world. Subscribe right now. The number one health and wellness podcast.

Matthew Hussey 1:08 Jay Shetty.

Speaker 1:09 Jay Shetty.

Matthew Hussey 1:09 The one, the only Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 1:14 Everyone that we know since we're young wants to fall in love, and we've all heard so much advice on love that has somehow become our version of what love is, or we've all seen so many love stories, whether it was a bad love story with our parents, whether it was a good love story with our uncles and aunts, whether it was our older brother or older sister, whoever it was. Where did your earliest ideas of love come from, and which ones do you still agree with and which ones do you disagree with?

Matthew Hussey 1:47 I suppose on some level, some of them must have come from my upbringing. You know, my mom talking about, you know, the, the kind of giddiness that she felt for my dad when they first met and, you know, the attraction. Um, I'm sure so much of it was, was songs and movies. [sighs] I suppose the thing that I think about now is, like, what I value today is different, I think, than what I might have valued at 21. I still, you know, very much value attraction and chemistry because I think it's gonna be a long road if you're in a relationship that doesn't have those things. But w- the things that became kind of non-negotiables for me changed, like finding someone who brings me peace and being in a relationship that felt peaceful. That was something that made its entrance later in my life, and I paid the price for it not making its entrance sooner. I, you know, I was in multiple relationships that really robbed me of my peace. And so I think that probably early on, I was not-- I wasn't seeking peace. I was seeking just the ride, you know, the experience of feeling these incredible feelings for somebody and, and also perhaps being heroic to that person. I think that was probably an early idea, that, you know, I was the... I, I-- there had to be something heroic about the way that I showed up or presented myself.

Jay Shetty 3:44 I can relate to that.

Matthew Hussey 3:45 And I think that for a long time, that, that prevented me from ever really being seen. You know, I-- If you'd have asked me at 25, "Are you vulnerable?" I would've been like, "Yeah." [chuckles] I wouldn't have said no. I wasn't self-aware about it, but, like, there was a lot that I never really brought forward about myself. I think that we are very good at, like... You know, we all tell the hero's journey of our life, and we love that, right? 'Cause it's a kind of here's where I was and here's where I am now. You know, whenever you hear, like, a rags to riches story, it's back then I was in a bad spot, now I'm in an amazing spot. And I remember I used to tell stories like that in my life. I could be dating and telling stories like that of where I'd come from and where I am now, and there was nothing really vulnerable about those stories. There was still the story of h- like, how I'm awesome. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 4:43 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 4:44 'Cause it's a hero's journey, you know?

Jay Shetty 4:46 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 4:46 But it's a lot harder to be like, "Here's what I'm struggling with right now," or, "That thing that you just did just made me really jealous and insecure," or, you know, "I'm feeling emasculated right now." Like, tho- those things, my God. Like, that, to bring that stuff forward for me was, was-- I didn't realize how hard it was and how terrified I must have been of doing that and how deeply unworthy I felt i- to be able to really show someone who I was-

Jay Shetty 5:18 Mm

Matthew Hussey 5:19 ... and still feel like I'd be loved afterwards.

Jay Shetty 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 5:22 You know? I, I'd get, like, a, you know, a vulnerability hangover at the end of... And, and by the way, sometimes, sometimes it did backfire. I remember, you know, when I was trying on the whole vulnerability thing, I remember saying to someone about a moment in an evening that had made me insecure. I remember talking about... Like, I, I didn't want to, but I would-- could tell I was being passive aggressive and cold, and the walls had gone up. And so I was like, [sighs] "I'm not being..." That's the hard place to be, right? When you know you're not being your normal, fun, loving, happy self, but you're also not being honest about what you're feeling. So you're just in this weird no man's land of, like, being unpleasant [laughs] to be around.

Jay Shetty 6:07 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 6:09 I realized, like, this-- I can't hide how I'm feeling right now, and instead of, like, gaslighting this person that I'm fine and I'm not, let me just share something that made me insecure.

Jay Shetty 6:22 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 6:23 And it really backfired.

Jay Shetty 6:25 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 6:25 Like, this person said to me, "I find that..." This is the literal words that were said to me, was, "I find that really unattractive."

Jay Shetty 6:31 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 6:32 And it crushed me because I, I thought [laughs] you know, I was like, in my head I was like, "I'm never doing that again." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 6:40 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 6:41 I remember living with my friend at the time, and I walked to his room and I was like, "I can't believe what just happened. Like, I'm such an id-" And I didn't say, I didn't say, "Wow, that was really lacking in compassion from her side." That was, like, the depths of my own, like, lack of compassion, self-compassion, was that instead of saying, "Wow, that was a really, um, that was kind of a, a mean and-- a response lacking compassion," instead I went, "Uh, I'm such an idiot."

Jay Shetty 7:10 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 7:10 "I'm a m- I can't believe I said that out loud."

Jay Shetty 7:13 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 7:14 Like, why did I reveal that weakness?

Jay Shetty 7:16 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 7:17 And it, it took me a little while to recover from that, because it kind of, it reinforced... That's the, that was the dangerous part, is it reinforced this idea that I needed to be heroic at all times-

Jay Shetty 7:29 Mm

Matthew Hussey 7:29 ... and not to have those weaknesses and, and that it was, those parts of me were contemptible if people knew about them.

Jay Shetty 7:37 That's powerful.

Matthew Hussey 7:37 So that was a, that was a big f- that was a big thing for me, I think. Thinking I had to be a hero all the time, and not realizing that a real relationship is so much more interesting [laughs] than that.

Jay Shetty 7:48 [laughs] Wow, man. So powerful. So many things to unpack. So many things to unpack. One of the things I wanna start

Jay Shetty 7:54 with is, what is the difference between a peaceful relationship and a boring relationship?

Matthew Hussey 8:00 Oh.

Jay Shetty 8:00 Because I think that-

Matthew Hussey 8:02 Great question. That's a great question

Jay Shetty 8:05 ... because I think a lot of people think of peaceful as boring when we're not emotionally mature. So I can relate to what you're saying, where you actually want a relationship that's kind of like chaotic and up and down and passionate, and then we love each other, we hate each other. You know, there's that kind of energy. There's something, and we kinda do that in a lot of our lives. And by the way, we do that even in marriage and relationships, where we can often invent drama because it's too peaceful. And I've had friends who've reached out to me and said, "Jay, I keep creating drama in my life because that's what I'm used to, and I don't know what to do with this guy or this girl because they're actually peaceful." So people are scared that peaceful means boring, but you've just said you like a peaceful relationship. I know you're not a boring guy. So what's the difference?

Matthew Hussey 8:51 I... You know what? So when you was just saying that, I thought to myself, I-- there are days where I'm on time for something, and I will kind of go and do one more thing before the meeting that makes me late, so that I have to, like, make a game of getting in the car and, like, finding a way to, like, how can I still, like... You know, the GPS says I'm gonna be there in, uh, two minutes before, but might have maybe, like, shaving off a minute. Like-

Jay Shetty 9:23 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 9:24 ... I was on time.

Jay Shetty 9:25 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 9:26 Why did I do the one more-- Nothing was gonna, nothing was gonna go wrong if I didn't do that one more thing.

Jay Shetty 9:32 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 9:32 Why did I do one more thing that made me late? And I had, I, like-- I had to realize at a certain point that that was, like, my nervous system. I, I, you know, I grew up around, like, my dad was always late for everything. I learned that from him. I used to hate it, by the way, but, like, I, I had also then adopted it. I, I'm not that way anymore in my life, but, like, it-- I realized, like, I have an addiction to this feeling, this, like, mini drama of, am I gonna get there on time? Which creates this little mini drama in my day for like 10 minutes. It's like an adrenaline rush. I'm like, you know, and it's a horrible feeling really. It doesn't feel good. It feels, like, stressful-

Jay Shetty 10:17 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 10:17 ... and anxiety inducing, and now I'm gonna come across as rude and disrespectful with someone's time, and I'm, like, stressed and... But it's like a, my body is used to that. I'm not used to, like, getting somewhere on time and, like, have 10 minutes to just chill and, like, it's-- that's a new feeling.

Jay Shetty 10:35 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 10:35 That can feel boring.

Jay Shetty 10:37 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 10:38 So in terms of a relat- I think we do it everywhere in our lives. In terms of a relationship, I knew when I met w- my wife, Audrey, that I had found peace that wasn't by any means boring because I felt at home. I didn't, you know, I didn't just feel safe. We can feel safe and very bored, right? We can feel like, "I'm with someone who f- is very non-threatening. I feel like I, you know, this person's not gonna leave me. I feel like I'm very safe in this situation." But I don't really, like... This doesn't feel like my person. I just feel safe. And when you haven't felt safe for a long time, sometimes that's a very lovely feeling on its own, just to feel like I'm no longer in a abusive relationship, or I'm no longer in a relationship with someone that makes me second-guess myself all the time, or feels like they're gonna leave me at any moment. But, uh, eventually we will get bored in a situation where the only thing that's presenting as a positive thing is the safety we feel. But, but in, in this relationship, I felt at home.

Jay Shetty 11:46 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 11:47 And I felt like, I f- I felt more seen than I'd ever felt before. I, you know, I, I really was astonished to the, the extent to which this person got me, and that we seemed to get each other. And, you know, the first night we met, we spoke for eight hours straight, literally. Like, everyone else was, like, partying and doing their-- And we were just-- We talked for eight hours the first night we met. There, there was an attraction there that made us talk to each other. It's not like we started talking to each other on the, in the first second because we knew we were such great conversationalists.

Jay Shetty 12:25 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 12:26 Like, we started talking because there was a l- there was a, an attraction. But, but then it felt easy. It felt like home somehow. It took me a minute to realize that, by the way. I'm not... Uh, this wasn't a love at first sight story of like, and then everything was smooth sailing.

Jay Shetty 12:42 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 12:42 But it, it did f- it took me a while to realize, "Oh, this is like, this is, this feels like home. I'm more of myself around this person." And I think that's a beautiful thing to find, is someone who makes you more of yourself.

Jay Shetty 12:57 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 12:58 And of course, I think it, you know, you can't... If someone says to me, "I've got n- zero sexual attraction to this person," that's a problem. That's a genuine problem. You have to have some form of attraction to the person you're with. Now d- by the way, does it need to be the greatest attraction you've ever felt for anyone in your life? That trips a lot of people up because I, I always say, "Don't comparison shop for chemistry," is one of the things I talk about in the book. Because I think we, we're always comparing whatever is in front of us with the peak of our chemistry that we've had with someone that we can't seem to get over.

Jay Shetty 13:35 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 13:35 But you only have to take a look at who, what are the situations that we find hard to get over? Like, where, what was that peak of chemistry and attraction? And it's often in situations that were entirely unsustainable.

Jay Shetty 13:48 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 13:49 It's, you know, you go, y- y- you have a holiday romance with someone and you, oh God, like if I f- I'd love to feel that animal attraction for someone who was good for me and who I had a long-term relationship with. And it's like, well, how long did you know that person? Two weeks? They didn't have to do very much. Like, it's easy to create the conditions for chemistry in that kind of a situation. The same is true of people who have a, a three-month fling with someone, where there's like, it, it becomes more interesting because it's flaming really hot, and then it disappears. You know, I had a woman who I coached who said, you know, "This person was the one. We had this amazing three-month thing." And I said, "What happened?" And she was like, "Well, he went traveling, and he said he didn't wanna continue the relationship." And for me, that's like literal fireworks.

Jay Shetty 14:41 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 14:42 You know, they, fireworks, we look at them and they're really exciting, and we get, we're like, "Ah, isn't this magical?" When you look at those fireworks. But if those fireworks carried on for three hours-

Jay Shetty 14:51 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 14:52 ... you'd be like, "This is ... I want to go home now."

Jay Shetty 14:55 Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 14:55 You would be bored.

Jay Shetty 14:57 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 14:57 Right? For fireworks to be exciting-

Jay Shetty 15:00 They have to end

Matthew Hussey 15:00 ... they have to end. So we have to be very careful about comparing the, like, slow burn energy of a real relationship with, like, that fast twitch muscle of a short-term encounter or an affair that is naturally exciting because it's an affair. It's like, you know, this-

Jay Shetty 15:21 Mysterious.

Matthew Hussey 15:22 Yeah. So I, I, I don't think... You, you should absolutely have chemistry, but, um, we have to be really careful with comparing chemistry with previous chemistry because that chemistry may not have lasted either if you'd have actually got what you wanted.

Jay Shetty 15:38 Yeah. And it's, it makes so much sense, the idea you just, the analogy you painted of the fireworks is a brilliant one. Because a real relationship is one that you don't want to end, and the chemistry-based relationship is one that has to end, right? It has to come to an end, and for it to feel meaningful. And a real relationship you never want to end, and that's why it feels meaningful. And there, that's where we're kind of stuck in between. And the thing I hear the most, and I asked my audience and my team a lot of questions before this interview because I know a lot of my audience is dating, trying to figure it out. And one of the biggest things which we touched on here, but I wanna ask you about,

Jay Shetty 16:20 is that people find it overwhelming with the number of options they have today. And I've spoken to friends who are like, "Well, this guy's great, but maybe there's someone greater," right? And we're constantly living in this, they're good, but maybe they're 50%, and maybe there's a 51, and then maybe there's a 79, and maybe there's a 99, 'cause I can see someone else over there has a 99. And so we keep second guessing even the person in front of us, even if they are fulfilling our needs, because of the overwhelming number of options. So how, when you said you felt at home and, you know, I think that's what people want to feel. They want to feel at home. They wanna feel more than safe. But how do we know or what have been the best signs and indicators that people can look out for that they're actually making things harder for themselves by wishing, hoping, wanting someone else? Or is that a sign that you're not with the right person, that you feel that there is someone who has more?

Matthew Hussey 17:18 It's such a tough question 'cause I think-

Jay Shetty 17:19 It is. It is a tough question

Matthew Hussey 17:22 ... it, it's ... Sometimes we're wanting something else because there's, you know, the, the person that's in front of us isn't compelling enough. There really is something lacking in that relationship.

Jay Shetty 17:33 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 17:34 But I do think we have to ask ourselves what, what are the things that I really must have for an amazing relationship? Like I, for me, when I, when I was gonna ask Audrey to marry me, I literally called up a friend and told him, and he was like, "You know, why are you doing that? I'm just curious." Like, what the ... He was, it was almost like his way of testing whether I was ready or not, you know? Whether I was just in some crazy, like, infatuation or... And I said, "You know, I'm, I'm ready to build something in my life." I feel like for me, my, my dating life was just like hitting reset all the time. And, and it was honestly at a certain point making me anxious. Like, dating and being with different people, and it just didn't You know, there was a time in my life where that was really exciting, and then it started to just go the other way. And I, and I had to listen to that and go, "This isn't, this isn't gonna work." Like, I... "This isn't where it's at. This isn't making me happy. This isn't bringing me peace." Um, the way that I was dating was... It had almost, like, an addictive quality to it that was really unhealthy. And I thought, "This isn't gonna be a good look- Mm ... 10 years from now." Mm. "It's not gonna make me feel good. It's not gonna bring me more peace." Which is a different... By the way, that doesn't mean that you know how to give something up. It, when you have those realizations, you might realize eating healthier would be better for you, but it doesn't mean that you've trained yourself- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... to be able to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, but I got to a point where I said, "I wanna build something now." And in, with Audrey, I thought, I, I... In my head, I was like, "I'll never find a better builder," and I said that to him. Like, "I'll never find a better builder. This is, this is the builder for me." Like, we're gonna be able to do such amazing things together and the life we'll have and the, you know, pr- the, her level of empathy and compassion and, you know, the person that I am with this person. It, you know, the way she makes me feel, like, that's, that's truly special. And I'm not a, you know, there's the one out there kind of a person. I've never been that way. If you look, anyone looks back through my videos, and you know this 'cause we've spoken about it. Back when I was single [laughs] you know? I've never been a person who believes in the idea of the one. So I think that it's finding someone that we've, you know, we look at what's really important to us, not what's important on an egoic level. 'Cause I think a lot of the things that make us question whether this person is right for us are ego based. I don't think they're based on how we feel around this person. We worry, "Is this the kind of person my friends think that I should be with? Do they look the part? Are they my ty- my normal type?" Do they make the right amount of money? Yeah. Like, is this, does, has this person come in the package that I had always told myself they would come in? And those things can be really, really limiting, and they can have us, like, constantly trying to optimize for some- Mm. Mm ... version of something that we think we're supposed to be with, which is a very dangerous way to go about finding love. You, y- you can't optimize for human beings. You, you, you can [laughs] optimize for a lot in life, but you're dealing with people. And by the way, even if you let go of this person, you're gonna find someone else who's also imperfect, and they might... Okay, this person is, you know, scores a seven in this area, and they score a nine. But guess what? They score a three in this other area that you didn't even know was great in this relationship because you took for granted how amazing that person was in that way. Like, it, it, it's, it's very dangerous to optimize in that way in our love life. And I, I've come to really believe in life that if you find a connection that has all the right raw materials and you both have the same level of commitment, then you can build something extraordinary- Mm-hmm ... together. And actually, the extraordinary is the thing you sculpt together. Mm-hmm. It's no different from a career. You know, y- neither you nor I started by doing our dream version of this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's evolved and evolved and evolved and evolved, and every year you sculpt it a little closer to your ideal way of doing it all. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And along the way, you do a lot of things that you don't necessarily... You're like, "Oh my God, I couldn't do this for a lifetime," and, "This part I thought I would enjoy, and I didn't enjoy it nearly as much as I thought I would." [laughs] "I'm gonna stop doing that." And you, you, you know, you, you sculpt it. Like, dream careers are sculpted. They're not found. Mm. And I think that that's true of relationships as well. Like, I'm more grateful for my relationship with Audrey the more time goes on- Yes ... because we sc- keep sculpting it into something that's better and better. Mm-hmm. What that requires, which is really hard for a lot of us, myself included, for many years, and this was one of the things that I think really h- hurt me, was I got myself into an incredibly indecisive state- Mm ... where I was constantly second-guessing myself, and I... You know, when we talk, when we th- when we think of what's our, like, what are we worried about in our love life, for so many of us it's that we're gonna settle. Yes. I'm gonna settle for the wrong person. Well, I think we can actually start to reclaim the language of settling- Mm-hmm ... and make it into a very positive thing, that- Mm ... what if it wasn't settling for? What if you decided to settle on? Mm. Because when you settle on someone- Mm ... there's a power to that. It's like you resolve to say, "I'm gonna settle on this." It's like people crossing a country when a country is, you know? It's like people crossing America and deciding when to stop. Yeah. [laughs] You know, where, at what point did the early settlers say, "This, this is good enough." [laughs] "I don't need to keep going." Like, "I've found an amazing place." Mm. And when you find that place, you go, "I could live here." Mm. Mm. Then you settle on it. Mm. And it's only by settling on it that you can make it great. It's only by putting your attention on it like a laser that you can see what it becomes. And I don't think that I ever really settled on anything in my love life in a way that gave it a chance to see what it could really become. And in this situation, I really gave myself that chance by saying, "I'm gonna-" I'm gonna go all in on this

Jay Shetty 24:25 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 24:26 But, or she was smart-

Jay Shetty 24:27 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 24:27 ... because she also saw that Audrey is ridiculously perceptive and in tune with people, and she saw in me early on, like, "Oh, this is a pattern-

Jay Shetty 24:38 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 24:39 ... for him," and s- that doubt and that what do I want? You know, is this right? And that she saw that early on, and one of the things that she did was she, she called me out firstly, and she was like, "Look, if, if you're, I'm willing to, like, really see what this could be, and you don't seem to be-

Jay Shetty 25:05 Wow

Matthew Hussey 25:06 ... in that place where you're, like, actually going all in and seeing what it could be."

Jay Shetty 25:11 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 25:12 She said, "So I don't wanna continue if you're not going all in because I, I'm not, like-

Jay Shetty 25:19 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 25:19 ... I'm not here for someone, half of someone's energy."

Jay Shetty 25:22 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 25:23 And sh- and the way she phrased it was amazing because she said to me, "Look, that doesn't mean like six months from now we could break up."

Jay Shetty 25:32 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 25:33 "You might decide this is wrong for you. I might decide it's wrong for me."

Jay Shetty 25:37 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 25:38 "And no one's the villain if that happens."

Jay Shetty 25:40 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 25:41 "But if you're not willing to go all in right now to at least see what it could be-

Jay Shetty 25:46 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 25:47 ... and give it your real effort, then, then this has to end here for me."

Jay Shetty 25:52 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 25:52 And what was, for me, what was amazing about that is that it lowered the stakes for me, especially when she said... Because I, I felt like, you know, in the past, I had hurt... Well, it didn't feel like I had hurt people, and I had been the villain. And I was like, "I can't do this anymore," 'cause I also suffer from ridiculous guilt. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 26:14 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 26:14 So I was like, "I can't do this again. I can't..." I was, like, avoidant because I was like, "I don't wanna get close enough to anyone to hurt someone. If I hurt someone, I'm gonna feel sick, and that's gonna haunt me, and then, you know, I'm just making myself miserable and them," and so I had all this, like, stuff. And sh- when she was like, "You're not... If six months from now you decide this isn't for you, that's okay. You're allowed to do that," that lowered the stakes for me. But by also demanding as a standard, and that's what so much of this book is about, how to raise your standards and what that looks like in practice, 'cause I think the reason so many people never reach the point of re- real relationship is because they don't have standards-

Jay Shetty 26:55 Mm, mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 26:55 ... for what they expect and how to communicate and know how to communicate those standards. But because she had a standard that she lowered the stakes, but she also had a high standard-

Jay Shetty 27:03 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 27:04 ... that said, "This is the price of entry for continuing."

Jay Shetty 27:06 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 27:07 That, like, allowed me to fully invest.

Jay Shetty 27:10 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 27:11 And when I fully invested, that thing started to actually realize its potential and to, we got to see what it actually was when I was showing up fully and she was showing up fully. Um, so I, I, I sympathize with anyone who is struggling with those decisions in their love life. I don't judge anyone for it because I struggled in my love life with... There's, I wrote a whole chapter of the book called Never Satisfied 'cause I [laughs] related to that idea that, you know, you find someone who you chase who feels exciting to you, but they break your heart, or, you know, or you go for someone who feels safe, and-

Jay Shetty 27:49 Boring [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 27:50 ... you're bored. You're doubting yourself. You're doubting whether this is the right person, and you just sort of, you know, cycle between those two different extremes. And it, it became the, a, not just a goal for me to help other people. It became a goal for myself to go, "I need to figure out how to be happy-

Jay Shetty 28:08 Mm, mm

Matthew Hussey 28:09 ... here," because otherwise I'm gonna constantly oscillate between feeling suffering because I'm chasing someone who doesn't want me or being with someone where I feel like I'm not, I'm not fully there.

Jay Shetty 28:22 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 28:22 And that's not fair to them, and it's not fair to myself. Like, I need to figure out a way to be happy here. So s- so much of this book is about finding that peace and that happiness that-

Jay Shetty 28:33 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 28:33 ... um, I feel really, really lucky to have been able to find in my own life because it's, it... You know, I wrote this book single, heartbroken, then dating, then, you know, falling in love, and then I, the last edit I did, you know, for two days-

Jay Shetty 28:52 You were married

Matthew Hussey 28:53 ... on my honeymoon. Like, that was a crazy arc for me. So it wasn't something that was created by a married person who was just like, "Here's all this-

Jay Shetty 29:00 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 29:00 ... answers." I was like, "Some of these chapters I wrote in the worst possible pain of, of my life."

Jay Shetty 29:06 You know, you talked about standards there, and obviously that's such a big part of what you felt with Audrey in that moment. I think what scares us about setting standards is that we think it's gonna scare someone away. So Audrey saying that to you requires so much self-worth in her saying-

Matthew Hussey 29:24 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 29:25 ... "I may lose this guy if I say this, but I know that's where I'm at." You being vulnerable with that person many years ago saying, "I'm gonna open up about my life," and them saying, "That's not very attractive. I don't find that attractive," that was you, again, trying to demonstrate and be vulnerable. But because you were with someone who wasn't emotionally compassionate enough to receive that, and because you didn't have enough self-worth, you made it a weakness in yourself. It sounds like when Audrey said that to you, if you would've said, "Well, I'm not in," she would've been like, "Okay, cool. We're not in then. It's not happening." It doesn't sound like she would've been like, "Oh, my God, he doesn't like me. I'm not good enough," because she had a certain standard, and that's what standards... Whereas when you were trying to be vulnerable, it was like trying to be vulnerable, but it wasn't a standard yet.

Matthew Hussey 30:15 Well, I would s- no, it wasn't a standard. Tactics are different from standards.

Jay Shetty 30:21 That's what I was try- yeah

Matthew Hussey 30:21 Not that when I was being vulnerable, that was a tactic. That-

Jay Shetty 30:23 No, I didn't think it was a tactic

Matthew Hussey 30:24 ... but, but, but, like, we do constantly employ faux standards That aren't really standards, they're just a tactic. So it's like I'm not gonna text this person back so that I generate interest, and then if it doesn't generate interest, three days later we text them anyway. That's because it wasn't a standard, it was a tactic.

Jay Shetty 30:44 Mm. Well, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 30:45 When something... A s- tactic we do to try and get a result, and if it doesn't work, we go for a different tactic. A standard is who we are.

Jay Shetty 30:53 So well said.

Matthew Hussey 30:54 And we don't change it. Like, if my standard for being open and vulnerable was what I did in that moment with that person, I wouldn't have stopped doing that just because I didn't get the result that I wanted-

Jay Shetty 31:06 Yes

Matthew Hussey 31:07 ... which was connection. I would have said, "Well, this is how I wanna be."

Jay Shetty 31:11 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 31:12 And come to think of it, one of... I would have said, if I was in a better place, one of my greatest standards is to find someone who really accepts me. And if this person doesn't accept me, then my standard is gonna be that, well, maybe this relationship isn't for me, you know? I wanna be this vulnerable in a relationship. I wanna be able to share from the heart, uh, both the good and the, and the bad, and my flaws and my insecurities. And if I'm not accepted, then okay, maybe, maybe it's not right. But instead what I did was I went down a very masochistic rabbit hole [laughs] of going, "I'm not good enough. It's just been proven. I'm never gonna reveal those weaknesses again," and I stayed.

Jay Shetty 31:59 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 32:00 Right? So you're right about Audrey, because I can guarantee you [laughs] if I had not then said, "All right. I'm gonna show up differently," she would've been out of there. And the big difference is we have to make the, the goal our happiness, not a person.

Jay Shetty 32:18 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 32:18 You know, we think that we're gonna be happy by getting a person, but you'll never be happy by getting a person that doesn't meet your needs. Doesn't matter how impressive you think they are, it doesn't... That's the, that's the danger, right? That's the trap people fall into. I've fallen into it. Someone's particularly exciting, impressive, charismatic, gorgeous. There's something, there's, they have all these things that you go, "This makes them a very valuable person." And then you say, "Well, my needs don't really matter anymore. The only thing that matters is I can get this person." Because we think if I can get this person, then I'll be worthy, and I'll be happy, and it'll all work out. But everyone out there, I've... You know, most people out there have been in a relationship where they thought it would be heaven to get someone, and then they experienced what the relationship was actually like when their needs weren't being met.

Jay Shetty 33:11 Mm. Mm.

Matthew Hussey 33:11 When they didn't feel safe, when they didn't feel acknowledged, when they didn't receive someone's empathy, when they felt like they couldn't really be themselves around that person, when they felt like they were constantly clinging onto the relationship because they never... You know, they were in a relationship with the person, but they never really felt like they had them.

Jay Shetty 33:28 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 33:29 You know? The, it's a special kind of hell to be in a relationship like that, and at a certain point we have to come to realize that this is, this is, this relationship I keep telling myself I'm gonna die if I lose it is worthless-

Jay Shetty 33:45 Mm

Matthew Hussey 33:46 ... if I don't get these couple of things that are missing.

Jay Shetty 33:50 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 33:51 And so for me, one of the greatest ways to have a standard next time round is not you... There's a whole, you know, I've, I wrote two massive chapters in this book on how to be confident, but you don't even need confidence for standards in the beginning.

Jay Shetty 34:08 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 34:09 You just need to know that I can never experience that again because it's too painful. It's like you don't need to... If I put your hand in a flame, you don't need a standard or confidence to get out of it.

Jay Shetty 34:21 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 34:21 You just, you don't need self-worth to get your hand out of the flame. You just, it's just too painful. I can't do that again. And a lot of people, especially people who leave really abusive or difficult relationships, a lot of them, when they have enough time away from it-

Jay Shetty 34:36 Mm

Matthew Hussey 34:37 ... and they start to, their nervous system calms down, and they start to experience a different reality-

Jay Shetty 34:43 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 34:44 ... they look back and, and they're like, "I... N-no matter how much I still may dream about that person, or fantasize about that person, or, you know, get sentimental about that relationship," when they really think about what it was like to be in it and what that person was like, they're like, "I could never go back to being-"

Jay Shetty 35:02 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 35:03 "... in that kind of a situation."

Jay Shetty 35:04 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 35:05 So the necessity is, is the birthplace of standards before you ever increase your self-worth.

Jay Shetty 35:11 Yeah. And I love that, because I think we get so locked into, like, self-worth, self-confidence, self-esteem. And because that's a lifelong journey and a lifelong pursuit-

Matthew Hussey 35:19 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 35:19 ... you feel you can't have standards. But I wanna go back to something you said,

Jay Shetty 35:23 because I think this is, we're really... I, I'm really enjoying this conversation because I feel like we're really getting into this kind of subtle nuanced space of what's really holding people back from having love in their life. And it's something you said earlier, which I'm kinda connecting to what you're saying now, this difference between an egoic standard, in your words, and then an emotive standard or an emotional standard. And maybe there's a better word for it that, that you've developed or come across. But I'm trying to separate it, because I think an egoic standard is, well, yeah, the, if they ask me out, they have to pay on the first date. So we start getting lost. Or, like, an egoic standard is they should message me first. Like, I don't think those are the types of standards that Audrey said to you or the kind of standard that you're recommending. There's this great, my favorite TikTok page to follow in the world is called Guy With the List. Have you seen this guy?

Matthew Hussey 36:19 No.

Jay Shetty 36:19 So what he does is he will take random videos of girls who share their icks. And they are hilarious, right? They are the most ridiculous things. Like, it's like, "I don't like guys who work out with their mates," all the way through to, "I don't like guys with, uh, a big bum," right? Whatever it may be. And this guy, what he would do is he'll take the clip of a girl saying that, and then he'll go to his notes page in Apple and add it to his list of things of not to be.

Matthew Hussey 36:48 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 36:48 It's the best page in the world.

Matthew Hussey 36:50 So it's just the longest list of ridiculous-

Jay Shetty 36:51 It's a lo- ... He's on 794 the last time I saw.

Matthew Hussey 36:55 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 36:55 And it's like a guy read the list. It's brilliant. And, and the reason I bring it up is because I think that's what we think standards are now.

Matthew Hussey 37:02 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:02 And I think, to your point earlier, I think you labeled it an egoic standard. So walk us through how we transform our egoic standards into, I'm calling them emotional standards, whatever the right word is. How do we transfer them over? Because I think we think we're setting standards, but they're standards like, "He's gotta pay on the first date. She better text me first. I won't reply for a week," the example you gave, and I think that's what's tripping us up.

Matthew Hussey 37:30 Yeah, I think the... It's almost like there's standards that arise from ego, and there's standards arise from what's gonna make us happy. And that the two are often completely different, right? Because actually, the, the things that make us happy can be much more subtle and less prescriptive-

Jay Shetty 37:51 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 37:52 ... than the things that feed our ego in some way. There's, there's two points I wanna make about this.

Jay Shetty 37:58 Please.

Matthew Hussey 37:58 The first one is in relation to the kind of inherent judgment that is in so many of those ics-

Jay Shetty 38:09 Ics, yeah

Matthew Hussey 38:09 ... and so many of those things. I would never want someone who's like this. I would never want someone who does that. I would ne- the... We write people off at lightning speed. N- and not just entirely superficial things, but ways that people are not like us, right? So you've got people who are like, "Oh, if they're not into..." Especially, like, you know, your audience is into self-development. My audience tends to be into self-development. It's very easy for someone who gets into self-development to suddenly be like, "I want somebody else who's into self-development."

Jay Shetty 38:41 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 38:42 Right? And I get that question all the time. Like, "Now that I'm doing all of this growth work, I want someone who can keep up. I want someone who's on my level." And I wanna remind people, like, you weren't doing this two years ago.

Jay Shetty 38:54 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 38:55 Like, this is... I- in a way, this is like a complete contempt you have for you two years ago.

Jay Shetty 39:04 Hmm. Wow.

Matthew Hussey 39:05 Before, like, a certain mentor or influence or something came into your life and s- turned you onto something. There's also a slight arrogance about the standards, you know, th- these things we have because it's... You know, someone could have lived on a farm their whole life, [laughs] and they have no idea what self-development even is as a kind of idea, a, a concept, let alone that there's this entire industry around it. And they may have a wisdom that you never picked up on in the world that you grew up in, and that might be one of the greatest bits of synergy between the two of you, is the wisdom you bring and the wisdom they bring that's different and has come from a very different place, a very different way of living. So, you know, I, I think there's a lack of humility sometimes in thinking that people have to be like us-

Jay Shetty 40:00 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 40:00 ... and then judging them for the ways that they're not like us. And a lot of the way we judge other people arises out of a lack of self-compassion.

Jay Shetty 40:09 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 40:10 Because we haven't really accepted ourselves. We haven't really, you know... I know every time I got punched in the face by life, every time, like, I took a big hit, and I, you know, experienced a really bad heartbreak. That was a big one for me, like a very humbling experience for me. I experienced years of chronic physical pain, and when that happened in my life, I, like, truly just hit a kind of bottom because I just didn't know how I would ever... I c- I tried everything in the world, and I couldn't make this pain go away. And I-- it, it started to basically not just ruin my life, because I felt like I couldn't experience joy anymore. I was just thinking about my pain all day, every day, but it also robbed me of my confidence 'cause I started to feel like, wow, n- no one's gonna be attracted to this version of me that is so frail and fragile and doesn't feel like... I, I was n- I really didn't identify as the heroic version of me anymore. I was like, "This is gonna... I'm gonna be perceived as pathetic-"

Jay Shetty 41:22 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 41:22 ... by someone who wants, like, a strong person," because I feel so on the edge of breaking the whole time, 'cause anyone with chronic physical pain knows that you... it's so centralizing, and even doing basic things can feel like it's too much.

Jay Shetty 41:38 Hmm.

Matthew Hussey 41:38 Um, but m- my point is that that, going through those things in life, it allowed me to access a level of compassion for other people because I was like, "God, how many people have I written off in my life because, you know, they're, they're this way or they're that way or they're, you know?" And look at me right now. I'm, I'm, like, on the floor.

Jay Shetty 42:06 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 42:07 And I, I found that as I came to accept more of myself and be honest about my own stuff, and not just the things going wrong in my life, but even just difficulties. Like, if you have a jealous moment and it makes you a little crazy, then you're not so quick to call other people crazy when they, you know, react to, um, a- ... insecurity they have, and it makes them do something extreme in that moment. You know, like, the, the, well, you, she's crazy. You can't believe what she did. Like, she's so, she's crazy. It's like you don't, you don't throw that around when you know you've-

Jay Shetty 42:44 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 42:45 ... done your share of, like, crazy because you were in pain, and you didn't know how to, how to cope with it.

Jay Shetty 42:53 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 42:53 You know? It, so I've, I've found that the more, the more I've, like, been humbled in life and the more I've become accepting of myself and compassionate towards myself, actually, the more-

Jay Shetty 43:10 Yeah, absolutely

Matthew Hussey 43:10 ... it's made space for everyone else because now I wouldn't, if I was single again, I wouldn't be writing off people on all of those things that I might have written people off, uh, for eight years ago or 10 years ago. I actually think I would have more options, not less. Like, people say, "Oh, I'm growing so much. I've got so few options now 'cause so many few people are on my level." I'm like, if you're really growing, I actually think it makes space for more people because you become more compassionate and more accepting. Um, and you see the soul of that person underneath those behaviors and the way they are, which kind of brings me onto my, my other point, which was when, you know, the person says they didn't pay on the date. They invited me, and then, you know, they didn't pay for the whole check or whatever. [sighs] I think we're, we're not always good at getting behind why someone is the way they are. Like, what's really driving the way they are? Does this person have the same values as me? They might do something different on the surface-

Jay Shetty 44:13 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 44:14 ... but underneath that might be the same value.

Jay Shetty 44:17 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 44:18 We just have arrived at different points. Like, my wife's a, a vegetarian. I eat meat. Like, we both love animals. You know, sincerely, I love animals. She makes jokes about me, uh, you know, how much, you know, how I am with animals is one of her favorite things in the world, but I eat them, and she doesn't. Like, we have, we've arrived at different places. But underneath it all is, like, the same beating heart, and I think that's the thing we're quick to write off when we make those really quick judgments about people. And that's not to say, like, there are certain, you know, red flags that might come up with someone where you go, "You know what? Not worth finding out what's behind this because-

Jay Shetty 45:02 Sure

Matthew Hussey 45:02 ... it's just too severe, and I don't, I really don't like this," and it has been a major warning sign for me in the past. But I think that's, that's different-

Jay Shetty 45:12 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 45:12 ... than taking something like, you know, someone, someone didn't pay half the bill, or someone didn't pay the whole bill. And, like, I, I know that I used to think to myself, "I really enjoy paying the bill."

Jay Shetty 45:25 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 45:26 But if someone didn't offer-

Jay Shetty 45:28 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 45:28 ... I, for me, I would be like... It, and this is even my judgment, right? Because that, for them it might just be conditioning, and it might be... I even, there were times where I even spoke up about it, where I found myself paying constantly, and I, uh, got brave enough to say, "Hey, it makes me feel kind of taken for granted that you don't ever offer to pay." You know, I've been in situations like that in the past, and sometimes if you said that to someone, they'd be like, "Oh my God, I feel awf-" Like, they, they're so embarrassed, and they're like, they will then feel shame about it and be like, "God, I..." You know, they look at themselves, and they're like, "Oh, I slipped into a pattern there that I don't like." Especially if I express that it's not that I hate, it's not that I don't like paying. It's that I don't feel like we're a team.

Jay Shetty 46:13 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 46:14 You know, that might make someone go, "Well, I value being part of a team as well, and I actually don't like that you don't feel like I'm a great teammate. That's the last thing in the world I'd ever wanna be."

Jay Shetty 46:24 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 46:24 So now, like, you can actually come together because of a, a, a, a moment where you say something like that. But I know if I was on a date when I was single and someone didn't even offer, and by the way, I would still pay.

Jay Shetty 46:38 Yeah. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 46:39 I still wouldn't let them.

Jay Shetty 46:40 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 46:41 But if someone didn't offer, it, it would be, there would be a little piece of me that would be like, "It doesn't, that doesn't feel like-

Jay Shetty 46:49 Yes

Matthew Hussey 46:50 ... teamwork."

Jay Shetty 46:50 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 46:51 And maybe, you know, maybe fine if someone invites you on a date and it, and they let you pay half. Okay, maybe you say, "I don't, I didn't love that."

Jay Shetty 46:59 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 46:59 But maybe you see, like, maybe that needs to play out once or twice more before you decide everything that means about the person.

Jay Shetty 47:06 Yeah. Well, I, I think you just hit the nail on the head. It's like actually having, and I know this isn't sexy, and it's not popular, but it is what you're trying to say,

Jay Shetty 47:15 that having the clarifying conversation around why someone behaves the way they do is far more useful as to whether this relationship has a future than what they do. So the fact that you're paying or someone's not paying actually doesn't show anything unless you had a conversation about why that's the case, and actually, how they deal with that conversation and how they respond to it is gonna give you all the notes you need as to whether this relationship has a future or not. Because what ends up happening, that's with a very tangible thing with paying. There could be something that person does that annoys you, and you let it go for the first month. You let it go for the first three months. Now you move in, and it triggers you, and you're like, "God, can you just stop doing that? You've been doing it for nine months now." And they're like, "Well, wait a minute. Why didn't you just tell me that?" And it's like, well, if we actually talked about it on month one... I know Radhi and I have had so many conversations like that, and it is true that as you spend more time together, A, you discover more things you disagree on, and B, you discover more things you're grateful for. They're both happening at the same time, and the disagreement doesn't turn into a disconnect because you have the skills to say, "I know how this person deals with challenging conversations because we've had them for so long." We're not waiting for three years to ha- to have our first challenging conversation because we've already had them about less important things. And now that we're growing up together, like You know, I think a lot of people aren't having the early conversations, so when it comes to, like, how do we wanna raise kids? Where do we wanna live? What do we wanna... All these are harder conversations if you haven't talked about who should pay for the bill, because these are much more bigger, emotional, conditioned decisions where people have far more stuff to pull from as to how they make it.

Matthew Hussey 48:59 There's so, yeah, there's so much to say about all of that.

Jay Shetty 49:01 Go on, yeah. Go, go. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 49:02 I, I, you, you're absolutely right. And y- Christopher Hitchens used to say it's more important how someone thinks than what they think.

Jay Shetty 49:09 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 49:10 And I think that we never... W- when we're being too judgmental or assumptive, we don't necessarily learn how someone thinks, we learn what they think.

Jay Shetty 49:18 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 49:18 And then we discard them based on what they think or what they do.

Jay Shetty 49:22 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 49:23 You're absolutely right that by having the conversation, you see how they deal with the conversation itself, which should, by the way, for anyone wanting a serious relationship, it should, that should be, like, one of your baseline needs, is that I need someone who is willing to have real conversations with me where we can acknowledge things. 'Cause someone who can't acknowledge things can't grow, right? It's like one of the key features of, of narcissism, is the inability to admit wrongdoing.

Jay Shetty 49:52 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 49:53 And that breeds incompetence, by the way, because if you can't admit wrongdoing and take ownership, you can't get better-

Jay Shetty 49:58 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 49:59 ... at something. So, you know, whether you're dealing with narcissism or just someone who can't see themselves clearly or can't acknowledge the way you feel or the way something they've done has made you feel, if you're in that situation, it's gonna, it's gonna be a rough relationship. So how soon do you wanna find out the way the two of you engage on that level? But it's also engaging on that level is a form... This is, I think, what we f- what we forget is that... Well, let, let me make two points about this.

Jay Shetty 50:30 Please.

Matthew Hussey 50:30 The, uh, I, I wrote an entire chapter in this book on hard conversations, not just because we tend to avoid them at all costs 'cause we don't like them. Like, it's like, you know, in Fight Club where the, you know, he, he says, like, m- "Most men will do anything to avoid a fight."

Jay Shetty 50:45 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 50:45 Like, it's like most people will do anything to avoid a hard conversation-

Jay Shetty 50:49 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 50:49 ... 'cause we just hate... It's awkward. It's embarrassing. You know, we probably, many of us grew up not being good at confrontation or not being taught how to have healthy confrontation, and so we, we avoid it.

Jay Shetty 51:00 And we hold onto it.

Matthew Hussey 51:01 And we hold onto it. And we're afraid what will happen if we speak up about our needs. I know that one thing I, I did a disservice to, to people that I had in my love life, uh, in previous times of my life, because the times where I might have really needed some time to myself, I didn't express it. And then w- by not expressing it, because I was afraid, I then became, like, resentful and avoidant and started to push that person away because I had just decided my needs couldn't be met in this relationship-

Jay Shetty 51:35 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 51:35 ... without giving them a chance to even see that part of me and show up for me in that way.

Jay Shetty 51:41 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 51:41 So we do that all the way to the beginning of dating. You know, we do that when we see, you know, the... I, I joke in the book about red flags because I'm like, "If we listen to every single piece of advice on the internet about what's a red flag, not only would everyone be undateable-

Jay Shetty 51:58 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 51:58 ... so would we."

Jay Shetty 51:59 Yes. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 51:59 Right? Like, I'd be excluded from-

Jay Shetty 52:01 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 52:02 ... the dating pool-

Jay Shetty 52:03 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 52:03 ... because I for sure have some of those red flags-

Jay Shetty 52:05 Yeah, me too. Yeah

Matthew Hussey 52:06 ... or have had at some point in my life.

Jay Shetty 52:07 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 52:07 So, you know, we... And that's, I don't wanna be hypocritical. I've been a contributor to the advice on red flags, but, like, when you start adding them all up, you're like, "Oh my God, is there any room for mistakes?"

Jay Shetty 52:18 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 52:18 Is there any room for someone to do something that, you know, uh, uh, uh, isn't them on their best day? Now, Robert Greene, I've, I've heard him say, you know, if someone does something, pay attention to that, because nobody ever does anything once. If they did it once, it's a pattern. I think that's an, a amazing... Like, if I was creating a survival guide for life, that would go in it-

Jay Shetty 52:47 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 52:47 ... because it's great advice. But I also know that there's things that I've done in my life or my relationship that I did once, especially after a hard conversation, I felt bad about and, and decided I, I don't wanna be that person or I don't wanna do that again. So we do wanna reserve some space in life for the fact that we can learn, we can adapt, we can progress. What I know for sure is that people don't progress without the hard conversations. What we ignore, we tacitly approve. And what we point out bravely, albeit there are elegant ways to do it, and I show people elegant ways to do it-

Jay Shetty 53:26 In the book, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 53:27 Yeah. That to me is then, you, you're looking for progress. Like, is, when I've mentioned it, is, does it bring us closer together? 'Cause in the right situation-

Jay Shetty 53:38 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 53:38 ... communicating should actually bring you closer together. It shouldn't then, you shouldn't feel gaslit. You shouldn't feel like you're called crazy or difficult or... That should actually bring you together. And then our standard has to be that by having that conversation, I need to see progress in that area, and if I don't see progress in that area, I'm not gonna ignore the fact that there's been no progress in that area. But if there's no progress, now it has become a kind of, a delusional thing to expect that they are gonna change. But I can't stress this enough. We, in our love lives today, everyone is really, really good at, and rightly so, I'm not n- this is, what they're talking about is real, but we're really good at complaining about what dating is like today-

Jay Shetty 54:27 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 54:28 ... and how hard it is.

Jay Shetty 54:29 For sure.

Matthew Hussey 54:29 And it is. Like- It i- it is hard. Finding love is hard. It is the Wild West. It, there is so much bad behavior. There's s-

Jay Shetty 54:41 So many ways to just-

Matthew Hussey 54:42 God, there's just so many ways for it to be bad.

Jay Shetty 54:44 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 54:45 And unfortunately for us, our love life is an area we can influence, but we, we can't control it to the level of precision that we can other areas of our lives. If we wanna lose weight, we can eat better and we can work out, and our body will change.

Jay Shetty 54:59 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 54:59 May not get to our perfect weight, but it will change-

Jay Shetty 55:01 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 55:01 ... reliably. In your love life, you can go on a date every day for the next year and still not find love, or you can find love, and six months later, that person cheats on you and leaves you, and you're back to square one. It's a maddening area in many ways because we deeply wanna find love. It is one of the most human of desires is to find love, and it panics us.

Jay Shetty 55:26 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 55:27 At first, it frustrates us, and it makes us angry, and, but at some point, for many people, it panics them because they're worried, "I'm never gonna meet anyone."

Jay Shetty 55:35 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 55:35 We can't just cr- decide, "I'm gonna find love in the next three months-

Jay Shetty 55:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Matthew Hussey 55:41 ... and make it happen." But what we have to start taking ownership of and where we have to start taking our power back is that you can go into your dating life from a place of leadership, and so many people, I think, go in with a state of following. Like, what's the level right now of people's effort? What's the level of men's chivalry? What's the level of whether people pick up the phone or not instead of relentlessly texting? What's the level of communication between dates or the, um, what I can expect from someone in terms of assurances that we're just seeing each other?

Jay Shetty 56:22 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 56:23 Like, there's all this rhetoric about where things are, and people don't try anymore, and no one wants to commit and so on, but if you're not careful, you can get into a really passive state about all of that.

Jay Shetty 56:33 Wow. Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 56:34 M- Mitch Albom said, "If you don't like the culture-

Jay Shetty 56:36 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 56:37 ... you have to be brave enough to create your own."

Jay Shetty 56:39 I love that.

Matthew Hussey 56:40 And by the way, that's what we do in business, right? That's what you've done in your business is that you've created a culture that you love, that is right for you-

Jay Shetty 56:48 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 56:48 ... and that's what you, you know, in a, the most positive way infect your team with, is that beautiful culture and that amazing way that you see the world and the way that you do things. And it makes your organization unlike any other in the world. It's got your thumbprint on it. That's the beauty, in a way, of starting a business, is that you get to do it your way, and our love life can be the same. We can decide, what's the culture that I want to have? Instead of commenting on culture, what's the culture I wanna create in my love life? If someone... You know, if I'm sick of this whole constant texting thing, well, why don't I be the one to leave someone a voice note today? Like, why... I- if someone's just sent me the 50th text-

Jay Shetty 57:34 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 57:35 ... why don't I send them back, when they ask me how am I doing today, why not, like, just say... Maybe it's too scary to call them, but maybe I just leave a voice note and say, "Hey, how you doing? I thought I'd, uh, you know, I thought I'd leave you a voice note. I'm out with my sister right now. We're in Ikea. We're trying to find furniture for this thing. I'll send you a picture because I am dreading getting home and having to actually make this."

Jay Shetty 57:58 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 57:58 "Tell me about your day. Like, how you doing? Blah, blah, blah." Like, you know you can inject a different level of energy and, and enthusiasm or sexiness or flirtatiousness or whatever it may be, a little laugh here that's endearing. A, you can do all of that in a voice note in a way that when someone listens to it, now it's not just another text on their phone. You're, like, attacking a different sense.

Jay Shetty 58:21 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 58:21 And that will increase the level of intimacy even just by 1%, 2%, and that might just make you... Like, that's leadership 'cause you're not just... We, we spend so much time mirroring-

Jay Shetty 58:34 Such a good point

Matthew Hussey 58:34 ... people. Like, I'm gonna mirror how someone else is g- what someone else is giving me in this, this person I'm seeing. But we have to start modeling more. Like, it, it... Don't get me wrong. If you model behavior that you wanna see by being the one who picks up the phone first or leaves the voice note, and then they, they don't meet you there, then you can say, "Okay, I'm gonna start to-

Jay Shetty 58:58 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 58:58 ... mirror their lack of investment.

Jay Shetty 59:00 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 59:00 I'm gonna start to back off." But you can't just be in a state of mirroring all the time.

Jay Shetty 59:05 Mm-mm.

Matthew Hussey 59:05 Like, this-

Jay Shetty 59:05 Such a good point, man

Matthew Hussey 59:06 ... it works on every level, man. I was, I was at c- my coffee shop this morning, and there's a guy there that really, like, we always have, like, a really nice, like, three-minute conversation, and this morning... Like, it never goes further than that. But this morning, as he was going to the coffee bar, he said, "Can I get you a coffee?"

Jay Shetty 59:24 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 59:25 Now, like, I remember in that moment I thought that was, like, a little moment of, like, vulnerability and leadership that was, like, had the potential to upgrade the relationship.

Jay Shetty 59:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 59:38 Do you know what I mean? Like, this is just another guy in a coffee shop, but it was like, oh, we might here... You offered me a coffee. I say yes, and now, like, y- our relationship is one where you got me a coffee.

Jay Shetty 59:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 59:49 And now we might sit for 10 minutes. So, and that's how things move, but they can't move if you're in this, like, fearful, protectionist, I don't wanna get hurt, I don't wanna give more than the other person, I don't wanna... That's not a good standard to have. A great standard to have is lead and model-

Jay Shetty 1:00:07 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 1:00:07 ... the kind of culture you wanna see, and if someone doesn't meet you there, that's where the standard comes in.

Jay Shetty 1:00:14 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 1:00:14 That's where you... The, uh, of course, the standard is modeling, but the s- the counter standard, if they don't meet you there, is to say, "This isn't someone I'm gonna continue modeling that kind of investment for-

Jay Shetty 1:00:25 Yes

Matthew Hussey 1:00:25 ... because they're not meeting me there."

Jay Shetty 1:00:26 Yeah. That is... Oh, man, that is so well put, and I'm so glad that you made that so clear because I couldn't agree with you more. I feel like we're limiting ourselves so much- And we're actually creating, what you just ended on there, it's a really powerful point. We're actually creating a culture that even if this relationship lasts, it will be set at the wrong level. So the culture of that relationship now is we sometimes text, we rarely call, and now even if the relationship lasts and we do like each other a little bit, it's never gonna change from that. So you're way better off setting the standard and the culture from day one and seeing if it develops and grows. And I find mo- what most people do, and I think we've all experienced this, is for three to six months we try and not disrupt the culture, and then six months later we're like, "No, no, no, but I always wanted this and I thought we were gonna get there." And the person's like, "No, no, no, but this is what we are." And I remember that Radhi, who's the only person I've ever been with since I left the monastery, like it was like she was the person that I was fully clear with about who I was, what my expectations were, where we were, and thankfully she was that back too. And we had some really hard conversations early on about some big things that were important to her, not important to me, important to me, not important to her. And what I loved was how we talked about those things and how, how we kind of navigated those things. And it's not that we're perfect and we don't have issues. We have so many challenges. You know, we've been together for 11 years now. There's so many things that have come up over the years that have given us different challenges. But the difference is we set a culture of how to deal with difficult things early on. And I think what I hear time and time again, and I know you hear this probably 10X the amount I hear this, it all comes down to the fact that we want people to like us so bad that we're willing to act unlike ourselves in order for them to like us. Because if they can like a version of us, then that's good enough for us. And so if the version is, "I never bother you, I never text, I never call you," we will be that person for you because that makes you like me. We all love to be referred to as that person who's like, "Oh, yeah, they're low maintenance," and we love that label. We're like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm low maintenance."

Matthew Hussey 1:02:46 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:02:47 And inside we're like [laughs] , "Yeah. I mean, I've got way more needs than this, but guess what? I've set the culture of being low maintenance." Now a year later they're like, "Wait a minute, you were low maintenance a year ago. Why are you high maintenance?"

Matthew Hussey 1:02:59 Yeah, and the- there's two problems with that. One is that it can actually make it so that someone can't even really read us or our intentions. It's a bit like when someone is like wants to be cool and indifferent. Well, if ... I, there's a story I tell in the book of a friend of mine who was dating someone and then went on a trip, and he didn't really reach out to her on that trip. And by the time he got home after a few days, she said to him, i- on the phone, "It, the fact that you were away and you didn't really speak to me made me feel funny."

Jay Shetty 1:03:35 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:03:35 "Like it made me feel like you may have been sharing your bed with someone else."

Jay Shetty 1:03:38 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:03:39 And they hadn't been on like, this isn't two people who had been dating for six months.

Jay Shetty 1:03:43 Totally.

Matthew Hussey 1:03:43 They'd been on a couple of dates. But that was the moment when he said to me, "I think I like this person."

Jay Shetty 1:03:49 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 1:03:50 Because there was an intentionality to it. She didn't go, "I'm being high maintenance by saying this." She just communicated what she was feeling, and by doing that, instead of being cool, indifferent girl-

Jay Shetty 1:04:04 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 1:04:05 ... like, like, "Chill. I'm chill. Like I don't care that you didn't text me while you were away." She went, "No, no, no, no. It made me feel funny-

Jay Shetty 1:04:12 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 1:04:13 ... because it would ..." The subtext is, "It would hurt me to know, like maybe we haven't known each other that long, but it would still make me feel something to know that you'd shared your bed with someone else while you were away."

Jay Shetty 1:04:23 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:04:23 That's a, that's a very powerful thing to do, because if he's seeing multiple people in that moment, all of them playing cool, indifferent, whatever.

Jay Shetty 1:04:34 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:04:34 He now sees someone who is actually telegraphing the kind of person she is.

Jay Shetty 1:04:40 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:04:40 That she's a three-dimensional person with real feelings.

Jay Shetty 1:04:45 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:04:46 And that she wants something more. She is not the kind of person-

Jay Shetty 1:04:50 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 1:04:51 ... to date if you don't want something more.

Jay Shetty 1:04:53 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:04:54 And by the way, even the first time someone gets like just a little bit jealous of something can be a moment of intentionality in a relationship.

Jay Shetty 1:05:02 Absolutely.

Matthew Hussey 1:05:02 'Cause you, the moment you see someone's a little bit, like they convey a little bit of even if it's playful jealousy, "Oh, I don't like, that made me feel funny. You're not allowed to text that per-," whatever. You can go, you ... It almost can make you like that person more, 'cause you can go, "Oh, that's like, it's almost like you've telegraphed that we've gone to an, a new level-

Jay Shetty 1:05:24 A new level

Matthew Hussey 1:05:24 ... where jealousy is even possible."

Jay Shetty 1:05:25 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:05:26 Because at the beginning, jealousy wasn't even possible.

Jay Shetty 1:05:28 Exactly.

Matthew Hussey 1:05:28 Now it is. You must like me. I think I like you too.

Jay Shetty 1:05:31 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 1:05:31 You know, it's like there's a ... We, we're so afraid of, of saying these things that actually telegraph intentionality.

Jay Shetty 1:05:40 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:05:40 Which is a really, really powerful thing.

Jay Shetty 1:05:42 Yeah. But we s- but it all comes down back to the root of we're so scared because we're scared that that person will leave, and often they will because their friend's saying to them, "Oh yeah, man, they're psycho or they're obsessive. Leave." Right? And so we don't want these extreme labels. And I think often, so we're scared of looking unattractive, we're scared of being unwanted, we're scared of being rejected, right? That's the reason we don't say any of this because we're like, "If I say that, they're gonna think I'm psycho, crazy obsessed, and I don't wanna come across that way. And so I won't say anything until one year on," which by the way they're gonna think the same exact thing when it's a full surprise. So I wanna talk to you about that. And then the other idea that I see a lot of that people get stuck on is when they say something, they say it as a demand or a command where it's like, "Well, I expect you to do this." And that's where I think it's unhealthy because I like someone being honest with me, but I also don't want that to be my progress report because I may have a really good thing to say back. And so if I'm gonna say back, if someone was like, if someone said that to me, like, "You didn't contact me," I'll be like, "Yeah, you know what? When I travel, I actually really struggle to stay in touch with anyone because I'm really trying to be present. I'm really trying to immerse. But now that I know that's a value for you, next time I go away, let's talk about how often we can both keep in touch realistically." Because I'm also not gonna promise I'm gonna call you every single day, even if I'm really excited about you, because I'm also gonna set my standard back. And I think often people don't wanna hear that either. They wanna hear someone say, "Oh, of course, I, I understand everything you're saying, and I'm gonna call you every day when I go away again." And so one side is you're scared of getting fully rejected, and the other side is you're scared of not getting exactly what you want. And I don't think both those expectations are useful, because you might get rejected, and you're never gonna get exactly what you want in an authentic way.

Matthew Hussey 1:07:38 No, and I, I, I

Matthew Hussey 1:07:39 think that's why we, if we're the one who wants something, we have to zoom out enough to look at whether this person and what they bring to our life and what this relationship is like holistically-

Jay Shetty 1:07:55 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 1:07:55 ... is enough for us.

Jay Shetty 1:07:57 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:07:57 Because we may say, "I want this person to call me every day," but that may genuinely not be their style, right? It's, they're not someone who enjoys sitting on the phone as much as you do.

Jay Shetty 1:08:08 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:08:09 Um, they might pick up the phone and call you every couple of days, but in the meantime, they will text you or... You have to, it's like you have to zoom out and go, "How much of this relationship," not these moments, whether they call or not, "how much of this relationship-

Jay Shetty 1:08:25 Correct

Matthew Hussey 1:08:25 ... meets my needs?" You know, what, what are the fundamental things? Well, I need to feel safe with someone. Like, I need to feel like they actually want me, and that I'm not kind of investing under a misapprehension about what this is.

Jay Shetty 1:08:41 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:08:42 I need to know at a certain point that regardless of our differences, we're giving this a go, and we're exclusive, right? So that might be one thing. Another thing is I need to feel like whether it's on the exact platform I might have hoped, I need to feel like I get enough communication, you know, holistically in this relationship to feel like I'm actually connected to this person. You know, if someone ver- very rarely travels, and then they go away, and you don't hear from them a lot when they travel, that may not be a big deal. If they're on the road half the year, and then they're not really connecting with you while they're traveling, that's gonna have a much bigger impact on your life. It doesn't make them wrong, but it might not be enough for you.

Jay Shetty 1:09:25 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:09:26 And that's where we have to start getting really honest with ourselves. We get so caught up in who's right and wrong, and we don't spend enough time just asking, "Is it right for me? Is it, is this, does this person work well with me? Are we compatible?" And, and compatibility is, is everything. You know, you can't... I talk about four levels of importance in any relationship or any person, any dynamic you have with a person. The first one is admiration. That's just you admiring someone. It doesn't mean very much. They may not even know you exist. The second one is mutual attraction. That's when you actually know you like each other. The third one is commitment. That's when you don't just like each other, but you're actually saying yes to the relationship. And the fourth one is compatibility.

Jay Shetty 1:10:16 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:16 Because actually, love isn't all you need.

Jay Shetty 1:10:18 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:19 You need two people who actually work well together. You know, is, it's not is this person, you know, am I good at handling them, and are they good at handling me?

Jay Shetty 1:10:31 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:31 Like, that's a pretty, I think that's a pretty good barometer of a relationship.

Jay Shetty 1:10:35 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:35 We, I came to this-

Jay Shetty 1:10:37 That's a great one.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:38 Yeah, because you're gonna come with your stuff. This nonsense of like we have to come to a relationship fully healed, who does?

Jay Shetty 1:10:44 No one.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:45 Who? Like, it's an, it's a, it's this idea that gets talked about that no one actually does. No one comes to, "I'm gonna make myself whole and healed and everything before a relationship." Good luck. And by the way, half the people who say that stuff who have been married 10 years, they weren't that way when they met their partner.

Jay Shetty 1:11:04 Totally.

Matthew Hussey 1:11:05 So we find imperfect people, you know? You, you [laughs] the, we are damaged vessels that somehow still work, and that's beautiful, and we're trying to find another damaged vessel that we go, "Oh, I understand the, I understand the fabric of their challenges and what they struggle with," or at least I, it makes sense to me when I hear it, and, you know, I have compassion for it, and I have empathy for it, and I have affection for it even, um, and vice versa. And so now when we go through our inevitable things, we're just good at handling each other. So it's, when we, when we have a standard, we may not end up exactly where we want to be. But the ultimate standard of holistically are you getting what you need from this relationship, that's a really important question that not enough people ask. And as a result, they suffer in unhappy relationships.

Jay Shetty 1:12:10 Yeah. It's so interesting to get into that kind of, you know, to go beyond that superficial conversation of make a list of what you want and, like, you know, try and find it out and, you know, that, that kind of egocentric list that we get. Let's, let's talk a bit

Jay Shetty 1:12:25 about breakups, because I think the challenge is that everyone in their life goes through at least one or two, maybe more, really painful breakups, whether it's infidelity, whether it's out, it feels out of the blue. Someone just goes, "Yep, not working out for me anymore." Whether it's different goals and different plans and priorities that emerge over time. And I think everyone who goes through a breakup Blames it on themself often, thinks that this is the end, there'll never be another person, and it feels like a really dark, dark, dark empty road, and a lonely road. And I think it's really interesting because there's so many, you know, pieces of advice and everything about, like, how to get over a breakup and, and I've talked about that as well myself, but I just find that it seems to be a path that you have to walk and have to take, and there's no real acceleration or there's not, as you said, there's not like a, "I'm gonna get over this breakup in three months," right? There's no timeline or deadline that you can set on it. But it's just uncomfortable, and it's almost like sitting in discomfort. What do we do when we're sitting in that discomfort?

Matthew Hussey 1:13:34 Well, when you're in the depths of it, 'cause there's different phases, right? Like, there's a certainly a phase of any heartbreak when it's genuine deep heartbreak where you are just questioning your existence, where you are like, "I... This..." You know, I remember having my own heart broken and sitting on the s- door, the, the doorstep of my house with a friend of mine, and just with tears in my eyes saying to him, "I just feel like I'm not good enough." Like, that was my deep sense, was that I am not good enough, and if I was good enough, I would've been able to make this work. And, and that's a, that's a horrible place to be. And you, you know, we have to have compassion for ourselves in those times because it's brutally difficult. It's a time where we just need love, and we need to celebrate the fact that we got through another day and that we got... I managed to get out of bed today. And, you know, it was a act of... It was a heroic act for me to just get out of bed. We then have to... You know, I, I always think that all of these moments give us gears that we wouldn't have had otherwise, and the worst pain of my life has given me access to gears that I didn't know I had. And as much as no one wants to hear it when they're in it, those gears turn out to be really valuable. They, they really do. I mean, we all choose suffering in our lives. Like, we, we choose to go to the gym. That's choosing suffering. [laughs] We choose, like, to write a book. [laughs] That's choosing a form of suffering. We choose to make a podcast, or we choose to climb a literal mountain or... Like, we choose pain in our lives regularly because we know that it gives us... There are benefits to be had. I have to argue that the benefit I have gotten from the pain that I didn't choose-

Jay Shetty 1:15:49 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 1:15:49 ... has been no less valuable than the benefit I've gotten from the pain I did choose. In fact, actually, I think the most valuable pain I've ever had is the pain I didn't choose. And when you realize that, you can kind of almost, I think, look at some of the worst moments of your life as, like, a menu of pain, and beside the item on the menu is the very specific unique benefits that can only come from this kind of pain. And you can kind of imagine yourself choosing... Like, retroactively choosing that pain.

Jay Shetty 1:16:26 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:16:26 Which is a very valuable thing to do because there's... I was told by a psychologist about an experiment on rats where, uh, one rat was on a wheel and was just given, you know, like, the free rein to just run whenever it wanted to run. There was another rat. This was rat A. Rat B was connected to that wheel. He was on another wheel that was connected to rat A's wheel.

Jay Shetty 1:16:54 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 1:16:54 And any time rat A chose to run, rat B had to run.

Jay Shetty 1:17:01 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 1:17:01 Right? So both doing the same amount of exercising, but at the end of the experiment, rat A shows all the positive markers of exercise, and rat B shows all the negative markers of stress.

Jay Shetty 1:17:13 Oh, wow.

Matthew Hussey 1:17:15 Same amount of exercise. What's the difference? Well, rat A chose to run. Rat B didn't. And th- there's something profound-

Jay Shetty 1:17:26 Mm. Mm. Mm

Matthew Hussey 1:17:26 ... about that to me because if we can take a situation that we didn't choose, who would choose to be heartbroken, right? It's the worst.

Jay Shetty 1:17:32 Right.

Matthew Hussey 1:17:32 It's a terrible pain. But, but what if in that pain you did realize, like, there is something here that I'm gonna gain from this experience-

Jay Shetty 1:17:43 Mm. Mm

Matthew Hussey 1:17:44 ... that I couldn't have any other way? That if I look on that menu of pain, this one has some really good benefits. Like, this one has some really amazing stuff. Who I'm gonna have to become to get through this, what I'm gonna have to learn, the way I'm gonna have to get comfort... Even just to get through a weekend right now on my own is, i- is gonna be this unbelievable feat. And to get comfortable in my own company and to sit in this pain and it... There are such profound benefits from that. What if I did actually look at those benefits and say, "They're so powerful that I'm gonna choose this pain so that I can experience those benefits"? And so you, you turn yourself from rat B to rat A, and all of a sudden you're not a victim of that pain anymore. You're, you're the beneficiary of these exquisite gifts that you could only get this way. Uh, and that, that's only... That's one tool I've used to get through some of the worst, worst pain of my life. And then on a pract- a, a- on a psychological level with heartbreak, what I always remind people is that if- Anyone who doesn't choose you cannot be for you. They, if they don't see you... Like, what is a relationship? It's someone sees you, they accept you, and they want that. That's, that's the most beautiful part of a relationship. So if someone doesn't s- see you and accept you and want what they see, then this relationship is missing the most beautiful part of any relationship. It, it shouldn't even be des- you know, it shouldn't be desirable at that stage because it's not... It has failed the fundamental test of what makes a relationship worth having. We're not talking about a person who, you know, in, in at least the case I feel we're talking about, the person who was taken from us by life. We're talking about a person who's just walking around somewhere, still existing on the planet, but choosing not to be with us. That should lose its romance to us. It, it, you know, and, and to say, well, if... That's the other game we play is, if it was a different time in life, if they were a bit older, they would've been ready to commit. If they had been in a different phase where they weren't so busy with their work, they might have had the space to really give to this relationship, but they said their work isn't allowing them to. If... It, it's like we go through all these scenarios where it, it forces us into this sad love song of right person, wrong time, and that's a really, like, pernicious story. You... That's a very dangerous story because it, it takes what belongs in the realm of science fiction and brings it into our reality. Like, it, it... When we're thinking about an ex from, like, five years ago, and we're like, "I miss them. I don't know why," you know, you don't even know who they are anymore. That was five years ago. They're a different person now in many ways. You're a different person now in many way. If you got together now, you'd be getting together as different people.

Jay Shetty 1:21:01 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 1:21:02 You miss a ghost.

Jay Shetty 1:21:03 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:21:03 Person doesn't exist anymore in the way that you think they do. You know? And when you're saying, "Oh, if only we met five years from now, it would've worked," in what parallel universe? It's a... This is science fiction. Like, it's not, it didn't happen in this universe, so it's, it's like, it, it, it is wishing for a parallel universe where everything, all the dominoes unfolded in a different way. It's not this universe. So we just, we have to get out of this mindset because it gets us bought into a, a science fiction story that doesn't really exist. I don't believe in the right person at the wrong time. It's the right person is right in their personality, they're ready, and their life is compatible with yours. If you're missing one of those three things, then it's not the right person. The right person has to be more than someone who you have a great time with and you like who they are and have great conversation and, and, and great intimacy. That can't, th- that's not the only criteria for someone who's right. So we have to stop telling ourself the story that someone who, you know, broke up with us or it was bad timing or whatever is the right person for us. That is a, that is just a story. It is not reality. The right person is the person it happens with.

Jay Shetty 1:22:31 Matthew Hussey. Book's called Love Life. That was, that hit right there, man. That, that resonated so deeply. If you haven't already gone and ordered this while you're listening or watching, please, please, please go and grab this book. As you can tell, Matthew's just woven beautifully his own experiences, his own challenges, mixed in with insights, lessons, research, practical steps. I mean, it's all in the book. And today we've just given you a little tip of the iceberg of ... And, and this was genuinely just a real conversation of me and Matthew going back and forth, which we need to do a lot more of. Uh, but, but just sitting here with you today, Matthew, I've, I've gained so much. So much, honestly. And, and as someone who's written a book about love too, there was so much today that I feel like we uncovered and unpacked, and so I can't wait for people to dive into Love Life, how to raise your standards, find your person, and live happily no matter what. Grab your copy now. Matthew, thank you again. Uh, everyone who's been listening and watching, share and tag your greatest insights with me and Matthew on Instagram, on TikTok. I know you guys are cutting up all these amazing clips. Keep them coming. Let us know what resonated with you, what you're trying out, what you're practicing, what you're implementing, what's working for you, and something that you're struggling with as well. Let us know so that we can try to create more conversations and more content that can support you on your journey. Uh, Matthew, thank you. Any, any last words? You have anything you wanna share?

Matthew Hussey 1:23:49 No. I, I would just say, um, if people go to lovelifebook.com, not only can you get the book there from any retailer you want, um, but I'm doing an event on May 4th called Find Your Person-

Jay Shetty 1:24:00 Oh, amazing

Matthew Hussey 1:24:00 ... that's designed to be this... It's a virtual event, so you could do it from wherever you are in the world, wherever you buy the book from. Um, but we're all gonna get together, and I'm gonna take everything that you learn from the book and apply it to a year plan with you.

Jay Shetty 1:24:12 Oh, I love that.

Matthew Hussey 1:24:13 For anyone who is like, "Finding my person is a real priority for, for me in my life, it's what I deeply want. I'm not ashamed of it. I want that for myself," um, this is gonna take all of the knowledge and the awareness and the ideas you have from the book and actually put you on a path in this live event to getting that over the course-

Jay Shetty 1:24:32 Oh, I love that

Matthew Hussey 1:24:32 ... of the next year of your life. So-

Jay Shetty 1:24:33 So that's lovelifebook.com.

Matthew Hussey 1:24:34 Yeah. If you go to lovelifebook.com, you can not only get the book, you can use your receipt from the book to get a free ticket to this event. It's not a, you know, it's not a paid-for event. No one can come just by buying their way onto it. It's literally something that's just reserved for everyone who's getting a copy of the book. So-

Jay Shetty 1:24:49 Oh, I love that

Matthew Hussey 1:24:49 ... yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:24:49 That's a beautiful idea, man. Well, yeah. Lovelifebook.com, everyone. That's the place to go. If you loved this episode, you're going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships.

Matthew Hussey 1:25:03 People should be compassionate to themselves, but extend that compassion to your future self because truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life.