EVERY SPOKEN WORD
90 min read · 18,478 words- 0:00 – 2:07
Intro
- RARiz Ahmed
I have long, deep history with this critical voice and this shame, and I really think it can kill you, man.
- JSJay Shetty
What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong?
- RARiz Ahmed
Different parts of me in every place that I go to. If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, then you're probably not in the right place.
- JSJay Shetty
What is Riz Ahmed's dream?
- RARiz Ahmed
External markers of achievement. The award, the round of applause. They don't nourish you on a soul level, and the thing that I'm seeking now is a sense of flow. That moment when you forget yourself.
- JSJay Shetty
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to have in this seat for God knows how many years. Uh, I'm joined by the one, the only Riz Ahmed. Academy Award-winning actor, writer, producer, and artist known for Sound of Metal, Rogue One, and The Night Of, and for bringing deeply human stories to life. Riz is currently starring in Bait. If you haven't seen it, make sure you do. A series exploring identity and the tension between who we are and how we're seen. His reimagined film Hamlet and Digger, his new film coming later this year. Please welcome to On Purpose, Riz Ahmed. Riz, honestly-
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... whether it was post 9/11 Blues-
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... whether it was Four Lions, we've been with you from the start. I've been-
- RARiz Ahmed
Oh, man
- JSJay Shetty
... cheering you on.
- RARiz Ahmed
Thank you so much.
- JSJay Shetty
I am a huge fan of how you put yourself out there, the conversations you have, your multidisciplinary art form. And honestly, I've been waiting for this moment, I feel like, for like, God, at least, at least seven years since I launched the show.
- RARiz Ahmed
Likewise, Jay, because I'm watching you, and I've just been rooting for you from the beginning. And, um, you know, we were just saying this before the cameras started rolling, we have so many people in common. In the work world, but also in the personal world, 'cause we grew up not too far away from each other in kinda overlapping worlds as well. So seeing you doing your thing, blazing a trail, is just super inspiring. So likewise, man, I've been itching to get in here and, and yeah, talk to you.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was thinking about it. And, and I, I wanna
- 2:07 – 4:33
Rooting for Others Without Comparison
- JSJay Shetty
vouch for this, 'cause I like doing this when I've got someone on the show, when I've got a memory that stands out to me. And it was probably around five years ago, I think it was. You'd been nominated for an Oscar. We had this South Asian Oscars evening in LA, and you were at the party. I- it was probably at the only time I've actually been in the room with you. It was me, you, and we were talking to Bella, Bella Bajaria, who's chief content officer at Netflix, dear friend. And you said to Bella, you were like, "Give this guy a show, man." Like, you were like, you were vouching for me even back then. You were like, "Give him a show, Bella. Like, what are you doing?" And I was like, this is, I was like, this is so nice.
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
I'll take it. Like, you're the man of the moment. You're nominated for the Oscar, and you're trying to get me a show, and now we've got three shows at Netflix. So-
- RARiz Ahmed
Amazing
- JSJay Shetty
... you know, I was like-
- RARiz Ahmed
Amazing
- JSJay Shetty
... I feel like you planted a very important seed.
- RARiz Ahmed
Great. Ah.
- JSJay Shetty
And I wanna give you your flowers and give you credit for that [laughs] .
- RARiz Ahmed
Thank you for that, man. For me, the reason I was rooting for you was because of not just what you have to say, 'cause of course what you say is, is so rooted in this ancient tradition. It's how you say it. It's how approachable it is. It's how human it feels. It's how relatable it felt. Just, m- even selfishly on a personal level, when I hear you speak, when I see the way that you're relating to people and making these things that can sometimes feel very abstract or kinda elusive i- ideas, esoteric ideas, and bring them into the every day, bring them into our daily lives, it makes me feel less stupid.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
Do you know what I mean? It makes me feel like, okay, yeah. Okay, yeah, all right. I can, I understand that. I get to grips with that. Um, and I'm certainly one of those people who for a long time thought, "What's this meditation stuff? What is this? This is kind of a bit airy-fairy." And it actually became such a big part of my life for many years and changed my life in so many different ways. And it's really because of people like you making it relatable, making it human. So yeah, on, on a personal level, I was like, "I need more Jay Shetty in my life."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
Do you know what I mean?
- JSJay Shetty
You're too kind, man. Thank you. That means the world. It's an incredible moment for you. I feel like you're everywhere, in a good way. I feel like Bait has just pierced through the zeitgeist and the culture. I mean, 95% on Rotten Tomatoes. Unbelievable. Like, that, that is ridiculous to even think about.
- RARiz Ahmed
Thank you, man.
- JSJay Shetty
And, like, to see the kind of conversations it started, it's not just, "Oh, my God, you should watch this show. It's really good." It started conversations about identity, about shame, about mental health, about inner critic, about guilt, about all these things. And, and you see it. Wherever, wherever I go on my feed, whether it's TikTok or Instagram, either it's you or someone talking about the show.
- 4:33 – 7:34
The Danger of Seeking External Validation
- JSJay Shetty
How does it feel to put yourself out there in such a vulnerable way? Because this story has so much of a correlation with your reality. How does it feel to put yourself out there almost not wanting validation, and then to be validated for it? [laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the whole show is about validation-seeking and how it can lead us down a really dangerous path. Um, it's very natural, it's very human. We're social animals. To want that connection, want that praise, want that affirmation, to be seen. But if you are purely dependent on that external validation and you're not giving yourself that self-love, you can become completely lost, and that's what the show is about. And the show is really inspired by my own journey with that. You know, I've been on that journey. I continue to go on that journey. I'm, I haven't fixed it. I haven't solved the equation. It's a constant battle, you know, trying to find that self-love and not just be on a treadmill looking for it from other places. So the show is about that and about trying to get past validation. So in a weird way, when people are validating the show, I'm like, "This is a trap."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
Do you know, it's interesting. I was saying something like this to someone the other day, which is I, I've never been great at receiving praise. Just now when you were saying all these nice things about me, I was actually saying, "Okay, I'm, I'm here with Jay Shetty. I'm gonna open my heart, try and be present, and receive, receive the good energy." But something in me, and I'm sure you've come a- come up against this with all kinds of people. I don't know how you deal with it yourself even.Something about receiving praise sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
And so I'm trying to find that balance of not being desperate and hungry for it. You know, you can't live off a diet of this candy, of these dopamine hits of people's praise, but also just receive it-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- RARiz Ahmed
... and not avoid it. I can sometimes swing between those extremes. You know, there's on the one hand is Googling yourself late at night [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
And on the other hand it's like going, "No, no, it's nothing. It's rubbish. No, no." And so I'm just trying to find that healthy middle ground, 'cause the show's about that in a way.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, no, I, I, I find that powerful because I feel like it's almost like, my friend said this to me the other day and I really liked it. It's this idea of, like, too tight, too loose.
- RARiz Ahmed
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
Like, sometimes you're holding yourself too tightly, like everything matters and everything's important.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
And then sometimes you don't hold yourself tightly at all. It's too loose, and you're like, "Oh, nothing matters. No, uh, it doesn't matter what anyone else says about me." And it's like if you think about it, you're always trying to oscillate between too tight, too loose, and you're trying to find that perfect balance of like, how do I hold myself in a way I don't suffocate myself or strangle myself, but how do I hold myself in a way that I don't also just let myself go-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... where, where nothing is important or valuable. And I was thinking about it 'cause in the show we get so many of these flashbacks into Shah's childhood, his teenage years. I've seen the show. I loved it, and I have been talking about it with colleagues and friends and people who have all had interesting reflections on it, both people from South Asian backgrounds and people from completely not, and that's what I love about the show, is that it starts really fascinating dialogues beyond culture and gender and race. But one of the things that stood
- 7:34 – 12:20
A Childhood Memory That Shaped Everything
- JSJay Shetty
out I wanted to ask you is, what's a childhood memory that you have that you would say defines who you are today?
- RARiz Ahmed
When I was about eight years old, me and my brother got put up against a wall by a couple of, um, skinheads. Right? Uh, for people outside of the British context, they're kind of like, it was like a racist movement, basically. And they put a knife to my brother's throat. I remember being eight years old, looking up at him. He was kind of defending me. And it was just the, this kind of shocking realization that, oh, I'm different. I'm different in a way that means that I could be in danger. And feeling othered in that way made me more vigilant, made me more aware of my identity. In many ways it set me on a lifelong journey of trying to, like, square the circle of my identity. In some periods of time I've tried to code switch a lot. If I've gone to a predominantly white, upper class school, which I did, I'd code switch in that way. Then I'd hang out in my neighborhood, I'd code switch another way. And I think that journey has defined me. I think that's how, why I started acting, was kind of code switching from one social environment to another. It's k- it's a kind of performance, right? And where I'm at now and really what the show, Bait, is also trying to do and what it's about, it's about that search for identity, is I'm trying to bring all those different sides of me together, not edit and censor myself when I walk into a room. I did this monologue for SNL UK recently, and I was working with the writers on it, and it was about identity crisis. And I was like, "I'm having an identity crisis. The UK's having one. Everyone's having an identity ... We're all trying to work out who we are." And I said, "Look, that's why I sound like a mix between Stormzy and Rishi Sunak."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
And just trying to embrace that and be playful about that confusion. I think that moment of realizing my difference and navigating identity was a big one. The other one's a lot more of a playful memory. Every time there was a f- community gathering, at some point the aunties would be high on Coca-Cola and Fanta-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
... and they would say, "Bring Golu down." Golu was my name in the community.
- JSJay Shetty
No.
- RARiz Ahmed
Golu means roundo.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Little s- spherical, round object. Don't ... Apparently, my brother named me Golu. I had a round head growing up. Don't ask. "Bring Golu down. It's time." And I would perform, and I would do Michael Jackson dancing. And I would do, like, just ran ... And it honestly, they basically, I'd be smashed off Coca-Cola as, like, a six-year-old, just like f- just freaking out, just throwing my limbs, you know. And I just remember these rows of aunties just sat there clapping, just feeling like, "This is the best feeling ever."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
I'm just getting to express these quite wild animal movements. I mean, it looked nothing like how dancing should look. [laughs] I would just basically freak out in this really expressive way and be affirmed for it. Quite strange, but I don't know if anyone else can relate to that.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
If any other kids out there were brought down to dance for the aunties.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
But I'd say the mixture of those two things, you know, ex- self-expression and navigating identity as something that could be a bit dangerous, those two elements I think have kind of really forged my whole path, and I've been exploring how those two things relate to each other my whole life.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I'm fascinated by those two memories because they, like you said, one's playful and has certain consequences with what happens with that, the validation, the, the praise, the applause for-
- RARiz Ahmed
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... losing control. And then the other one is actually quite, to be in that threatening place as a young man with your brother and feeling the, the racist implications of having that kind of a interaction with someone.
- RARiz Ahmed
So many people go through-
- JSJay Shetty
For sure
- RARiz Ahmed
... I mean, I'm sure you experienced a lot of that.
- JSJay Shetty
100%. 100%. When you said Golu, I was like, I, so I was overweight growing up, so I was bullied for that. I was bullied for the color of my skin 'cause the area I grew up in, there weren't a lot of people of our color. And so I, I get it. Like, I, I hear that, and that doesn't make it any more normal or easy or better for any of us.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
It's just like, no, that's what you went through. But I can also relate to the other side of the aunties. [laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
I can totally relate to everything you just said where I'm just like, we'd be at, like, an event, and the act had pulled out or something, and then my mom would be like, "All right, you gotta go on stage and save the day." [laughs] And I'm like, "What do you mean? Like, I haven't prepared anything. I'm not ready for this." And I'd have to figure it out.
- RARiz Ahmed
We're all out here just trying to please aunties.
- JSJay Shetty
Literally. Literally.
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- 12:20 – 20:26
The Secret to Finding Flow
- JSJay Shetty
when you look back and go, "What is my dream now?" Or uncovering what, what is Riz Ahmed's dream, do you have anything that feels close?
- RARiz Ahmed
You know, it's so interesting hearing you say this, 'cause I don't know if you have this, Jay. If I sit back here and I say, "Jay, you've done this thing. You've brought kinda mindfulness and this Eastern philosophy to, like, the world. You've got the world's number one health podcast," all this kinda stuff, you're aware of those things possibly as facts. But your internal experience of it, does it really land like that? Or does it feel like a series of mistakes that went right, moments of hubris that went wrong, a journey that's constantly unfolding that you're not quite in control of, and in many ways, like, you don't stop to, like, breathe ... But maybe you ... I mean, I'm sure you stop to breathe all the time.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
So you stop to kinda in- you know, kinda really have, check out that perspective. But when you're saying, um, these things about kinda living the dream or whatever, I guess I don't see it like that. I feel very grateful for my journey. And maybe the reason why I don't see it like that is I've realized that all these kind of external markers of achievement, they don't really land. They don't really land in the way you think they will. The award, the round of applause, these fleeting moments, these moments of kind of, these dopamine hits, those moments of the little kid dancing in front of the aunties, being handed another cup of Coca-Cola and a round of applause and a ... You know, those moments, they feel nice, they feel good, but they're, but they're very, very fleeting. They don't nourish you on a soul level, those external things. I think what we're searching for as artists, as storytellers, as actors, but really any of us, is a sense of flow. You know that moment when you forget yourself?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- RARiz Ahmed
It's that feeling when you're not literally self-conscious. Man, you talk about this so much, right? And it's this feeling of connection to all things and all people, and every now and again, in a fleeting moment, whether you're lost in a jigsaw puzzle you love or a video game or a, or on stage performing or in a conversation, playing with your kid, you forget yourself. And that's the thing I'm chasing.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
It's trying to live in that as much as possible, both in my art and in my life. I wanna try and just find a way of just living as close as possible to that pocket, rather than these milestones and these trophies and these things of achievement. Of course, we all have an ego. We need one. I'm still setting goals. I'm still setting targets. We're still living in this world. But I've realized in a weird way, having achieved some of those things, having ticked some of those boxes, it doesn't feed your soul in the way you think it will.
- JSJay Shetty
It makes so much sense because I think as humans, we're only good at living in the two extremes. So one is, life is all about goals, it's about the milestone, it's about winning, and I wanna get there. And then the other option is, oh, none of that matters, I've just gotta be. And really, it's all in the middle somewhere, like you're saying, which is, I need to have goals and I need to know where I'm going, but I know that that's not the thing that's gonna feed my soul or make me feel full.
- RARiz Ahmed
I've been just thinking about this a lot lately because I talk about these things and I practice these things, but then you meet someone who does it better than you, more naturally, more effortlessly, and you go-
- JSJay Shetty
Are you talking about me, Jay?
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, yeah. I was talking about you, Riz.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I thought you might be.
- RARiz Ahmed
I was talking about you [laughs] .
- JSJay Shetty
Thank you.
- RARiz Ahmed
I was talking about one of my friends who's like, she can make, like, if she saw a beautiful colored flower on the side of a road-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- RARiz Ahmed
... she would stop and grab them and feel like someone just gave her a million dollars.
- JSJay Shetty
Oh, amazing.
- RARiz Ahmed
And it sounds ridiculous to say it, but having watched her do that, I'm just like, "That's what I want." Like, to be a- you know, to be able to turn that really ordinary, simple moment-
- JSJay Shetty
Yes
- RARiz Ahmed
... into feeling like it's the most aw- And we see this in kids. I know you're a dad, too, and it's like you see this in kids. When you watch a kid just marvel at something and they're lost in the moment. You know there's that classic stereotypical thing of, like, I'm trying to get everyone out of the house. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Put on your shoes 'cause we've got somewhere to be. Milestone, objective, achievement, goal. And the kid is, like, playing with the Velcro on the shoes. And it's that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
That's the thing.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
That's what it's all about. It's this moment. What you're saying kinda reminds me of, obviously, there's that cliche, it's not the destination, it's the journey. But I think you need to set the destination so that you get to experience the journey, and that's what I'm talking about. It's like you can aim to achieve XYZ. Just know that XYZ isn't gonna be the juice. The juice is gonna be that feeling of flow that, if you're lucky, you might feel trying to get there. You know, the love that we've got on Bait was overwhelming for me in a way because it was so personal, 'cause it was drawn from such a ... All my insecurities and neuroses and such a personal place. Not 'cause I'm trying to do something that's all about me, but actually because I think those feelings are universal.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- RARiz Ahmed
I started ... I was just saying to my wife, it's like, should I be enjoying that more? Should it be landing more? And that's when I realized, like, it's ... Actually, the reward was the process of making it, was the process of reaching inside to a vulnerable place and kinda offering it up. There's that moment of offering. There's that moment of letting go. There's this sample at the start of a J. Cole track, um, called The Climb Back. The track's called The Climb Back, and I think it's a sample from a very old audiobook called The Tao of Leadership.
- 20:26 – 24:39
Life Feels Like One Big Audition
- JSJay Shetty
to live as if life is not an audition?
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, that is really the central idea of the show. That's why the show is based around an audition. It's not really a show about being an actor.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
It's about this. We always feel like we are all auditioning, and that's because I think of social media to a considerable extent, the attention economy that we all exist in, that our value is about our visibility. And so we're all constantly performing this version of ourselves that we think we should be, that we think people want us to be. And that's true on your LinkedIn profile, on a Zoom call, on your social media, just as it is for an, for an actor, right? Like, here's the script. I have to behave like a more desirable, put together, successful version of myself. But actually, I can't make sense of this script of life, and I'm having a panic attack. And so how do you switch that off? How do you kind of like stop performing I think is really interesting because you could say, "Well, you know what? It's about being really vulnerable. It's about embracing your messiness." You could also get into like performative vulnerability. I think so much of it isn't about what you do. It's about why you're doing it-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- RARiz Ahmed
... and how you're doing it. And I have to be honest, at least for myself, like I've never gotten to a point where I feel like I've cracked this. But I have some days, some afternoons where I just feel like it's not about me.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
I've forgotten myself. I'm in that sense of flow. And ironically, that's when things are going the best, you know, when I'm not thinking about them in that way. But I don't know. I mean, how do you kind of find this as well, particularly kind of operating in a world that's about mindfulness and meditation and finding your purpose on a spiritual level? But of course, the medium is often digital and social media. And how do you square that circle? 'Cause it must be... I- in a way, it's similar as like being an actor-
- JSJay Shetty
100%
- RARiz Ahmed
... you know, you're trying to do something spiritual and forgetting yourself, but you're doing it with people watching.
- JSJay Shetty
I haven't figured it out either. It would be stupid to say I have, and, and I'm grappling with it too, and that's why this interview is so exciting to me because the themes in Bait are so universal, no matter what you do. And like you said, whether someone's applying for a job on LinkedIn or whether they're just trying to make their mom happy or whatever it may be, it's, it's all in there. And so for me, I started to realize that, and you'd, you'd feel this way, but as an actor it's slightly different because with an actor, everyone thinks you are your roles. So right, like if someone meets Chris Hemsworth, they think he's Thor, and like they think they're getting a picture with-
- RARiz Ahmed
Get the hammer out, man. Come on, bro [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... yeah, they think, yeah, they think they're getting a picture with Thor. If you see Robert Downey Jr., you think you're with Iron Man. Like that's, that's-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, wow. Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... you know, Tony Stark. Like that's who you're in love with. You're not-- You don't know who Robert Downey Jr. is. Same as Riz Ahmed.
- RARiz Ahmed
Whereas for you, the public and private self, there's an authenticity, there's a coherence to it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes, there is in the sense of, yes, I do this in real life and I do it online. But I'm also a complete human being with lots of other desires and lots of other complexities. So like what I try and do as much as I can, which helps me more than helps anyone else, is like I try not to say anything profound when I'm around people [laughs] because, because it's-
- RARiz Ahmed
People come over for a dinner party.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- RARiz Ahmed
... they're expecting Jay's gonna be dropping some gems.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And I'm like literally the plainest-
- RARiz Ahmed
You're like, "Yeah, just Man United scores."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah [laughs] exactly. I would literally start talking about football. Because all I'm trying to do is like I don't wanna play up to the caricature of what I think I've become. It's like a comedian that just thinks they have to be funny all the time. So I can feel like, "Oh, God, I've just gotta be... Everything that comes out my mouth has to be profound." And n- not is-- not only is that not realistic, it's not possible. I'm not... I'm a normal person.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Like not everything I say is like deep and life-changing, and, and I don't even wanna be that. And so it's this fascinating thing that I'm always dealing with.
- RARiz Ahmed
If it makes you feel better, Jay, the time we've spent, you... have you always felt me to be very superficial-
- JSJay Shetty
Thank you. Absolutely. I appreciate-
- RARiz Ahmed
... and very shallow? I know that's what you wanna hear, yeah.But yeah, so I think my point is I'm always, in one sense, compensating for that by creating moments of breaking the image. You know, somebody said something really interesting to me that, in a way, inspired
- 24:39 – 26:59
The Gap Between Who You Are and Who You Present
- RARiz Ahmed
the whole show of Bait, right? It was this... One thing was this feeling of life for all of us feels like an audition, and the other thing was the distance between your public and private self is the amount of shame that you carry. The distance between how you wanna be seen or how people see you and who you are when no one's watching, that performance that we are all living in, that's actually about... That's a measurement of shame. And I was like, "I wanna do something in that spot." And for me, in that, that space between those two versions of yourself, that space really started opening up for me- Mm ... a lot about 10 years ago. When I started to become more known, um, in America doing some work here and doing things like Star Wars, that is when it just felt so at odds. You know, the perception and the reality couldn't be more different, and that's something that's stressful, absurd, but also kind of funny. And so I wanted to kind of liberate myself of that shame, hopefully invite other people to liberate themselves of, of that shame as well by, by actually trying to collapse that distance between the public and private self. So I'm always an actor. What if I make a show that's taking all my vulnerabilities and neuroses and, and laugh about them and put them out there? And there's so much in the show that's really directly from my upbringing. There's that skinhead moment. Mm-hmm. A version of it. I had a panic attack once when I was supporting Wu-Tang Clan in concert at Kentish Town Forum in North London. We re-filmed me having- Right ... a panic attack- Yes, yes ... at Kentish Town Forum. I said, "I wanna do the same place. I wanna burst out into the same alleyway and have the same panic attack there." Even, you know, the British security services, MI5 and MI6, recruit- recruiting my character, they've tried to do that with me- I can't believe that ... a few times. Yeah, that's a crazy story. After I, after I became more known as an actor, they reached out several times saying, "Do you wanna help us with messaging? Do you wanna sit down?" I was like, "No, I'm an artist. I'm not getting involved, mate. Don't... No, thank you." But I just tried to take all these kind of moments of confusion and contradiction and, and, and try and put them out there because, like you said, that, the gap between your public and private self can feel like a straitjacket. Mm. And I think we're all doing it. You don't have to be you or me. [laughs] Like I said, we're all kind of performing- Yeah ... it feels like these days. Yeah. And I
- 26:59 – 28:57
Finding Freedom in the Imperfection
- RARiz Ahmed
feel the challenge is, and I love that idea, the one that you shared just now, this, the gap between your public and private self, how big shame is or how deep the shame- Yeah ... you experience is. And I think that the biggest challenge becomes when you never leave the stage. And so everyone has to perform. Everyone has to perform at work. Everyone has to perform with family. You know, there, there's gonna be places in your life where you have to perform. Life is that way. But if you never leave the stage, and you feel like your performance on stage is who you are and is reflective of your worth, that feels like when you're really stuck because now you're saying, "The value I get from being on the stage is all the value I have." And especially if when you s- leave the stage, you're trying to be as boring as possible. [laughs] Do you know what I'm trying to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're trying to be as imperfect as possible. What is love? What is your safe place? What are your safe relationships? They're the place where you don't have to perform, where you get to be the messy, c- chaotic, neurotic, boring version of yourself. And so these weird things happen. It's like the place of love and safety is a place where... And it should be like this. You know, my, like, my cousins, they laugh about what I do. You are friends with one of my cousins, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um- Yeah, we played football together- Yes ... like 15 years ago. Exactly, right? But what I think I love about that WhatsApp group with my cousins is when I got nominated for an Oscar f- for acting, one of my cousins genuinely was like, "Okay, cool. Like, what, is that a big deal? Is that like when I won regional employee of the month?" [laughs] I was about to say like, "Well, no, it's actually, it's not like winning regional employee of the m- month." And another cousin came in and went, "No, it's not like that because you actually won that award- [laughs] Oh, no ... regional employee of the month. He didn't win." Oh, wow. And it's... That's, that's healthy. That's, that's good. Do you know what I mean? To have your safe place be one where those things don't matter, where the performance is immaterial. But it can be lopsided, right? It's why people get addicted to being out there and getting a pat on the back.
- 28:57 – 34:00
One Story Does Not Define You
- RARiz Ahmed
Not only are we trying to be liked or validated, it's like what Bait, again, is set up for, is trying to be something you're not. So obviously, your character's trying to become the next James Bond, and it's not really about Bond. It's this idea of I'm trying to be something I'm not. Mm. And I think that is even more difficult than just trying to be liked because before, there's one version of you trying to be liked for who you are, and now you're trying to be liked for someone you'll never be, and that's, like, an even more complicated place to be because now you're taking on traits, personality types, clothing, whatever. I mean, I'm half disappointed you didn't show up in a tux today. You know that, right? [laughs] Like, it's like for everyone else, the subway takes, you show up in a tux. For everyone else I have to, but this is where I get to be boring. [laughs] You're not boring. You look great. But yeah, it's like, but that idea of trying to be someone we're not, I, I find that to be, like, the, the golden handcuffs, the drug of society where... I remember when I started, when I left the monastery and I started working in the corporate world just to pay the bills and survive, I remember thinking to myself, "This place is trying to make me someone that I'm not." Yeah. And I could spend 30 years here becoming someone that I'm not. I could become partner, could make money, whatever. And that's the challenge people are having to work with because we're lucky we get to express who we are through our work and tell stories and everything. But when I think about someone who's like
- JSJay Shetty
Jay, I've got ... You know, Riz, I'm, uh, that's what I've gotta do every day. Like, I have to be someone I'm not. Do you think that we all have an essential essence and go, "This is who you are"? Like I said, I grew up code switching with these very different sides to myself, wearing a, a school uniform at school, and then shalwar kameez at home, and then Reebok Classics and fake Versace out with my friends. Literally changing costumes, accent, and personality. It was a form of acting. Now I try and bring all of that together, making things like Bait or my version of Hamlet or whatever, where we bring these different things together in one place. Do we have an essential center? Isn't it just about our circumstances and our environment? This is when I'm asking you to say something profound, Jay.
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
I need you to help me out with this.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
What's your take on this? Do you think we have, like, "Okay, this is you at your core, and that's you at your core"? I believe that life is more about a collection and connection of ideas and stories and narratives that you've built, as opposed to a center that was always the case, and-
- RARiz Ahmed
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... it can sound easy to say it, but actually it's really hard. Like, I always say to people, I'm as much in love with monk wisdom as I am with building a media empire, as I am with being a loving partner, as I am with a good friend. Like, I'm, like, in love with all of those parts of myself, and I'm, like, trying to become okay with all of those things.
- RARiz Ahmed
Those things that are seen as contradictions.
- JSJay Shetty
Correct, and paradoxical, and they feel like they don't mesh. But I'm like, if everyone sat down and asked themselves who they were, I think we all have paradoxes within us.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
We've been taught to say, "I'm an accountant. I'm married. I'm Hindu." I'm whatever it is. Like, we've been taught to have very simple labels which are very, you know, incomplete.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And I guess it's, like, less about finding yourself means being in one lane.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I don't believe in that.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I think that having all these different sides to who we are is, is human and universal and healthy, in a way. Over the last 10 years or so, I kind of really went on this journey of trying to make work from a more personal place. When I came into this game, I felt like for some reason I had to justify it beyond just myself enjoying it. Now I'm like, actually, my joy is valid, you know? Joy ... And if other people take joy from my work, that's valid as well. But I always felt like it's gotta be a, have a greater purpose, right? And for me, that was about trying to stretch culture. This idea of one person at a time, one film screening, one performance at a time, opening people's hearts and minds to an experience that they didn't think they could relate to, but actually, wow, I recognize myself in it. It's like I was a big fan of watching The Crown.
- RARiz Ahmed
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
And you know, when you're watching The Crown, you're suddenly like, "I'm the Queen of England." [laughs] That's me. I'm her. I totally get ... You know, how ... It's this amazing body swap that story can achieve, right? And so to try and open people's hearts and minds to realizing that we're all the same, we're all one, and, and to stretch culture in that way. And before I used to think, okay, that means me popping up in all these roles that are as different as possible to me-
- RARiz Ahmed
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... change people's ideas about who can play that role.
- RARiz Ahmed
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
Who can be in a Star Wars movie, and all this kind of stuff. And now more and more, I think, like, I wanna share the messy contradiction of myself.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I used to think acting was about putting on the mask. Now I think it's about taking it off. It's actually about sharing the most personal thing possible, and that ends up being the most universal-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... thing.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
You know?
- 34:00 – 41:09
When Life Falls Apart Overnight
- JSJay Shetty
Something actually I've ne- I've never really talked about publicly before, Jay, but I did this film called Mogul Mowgli, and it's about a guy who, an artist who suddenly loses his ability to walk, becomes tremendously ill overnight, and is never sure if he's gonna get his life back. It was an exploration of lots of themes that I was interested in creatively, but what people don't know is that that, that basically really happened to me. It was 2015, and I'd just started filming Star Wars. I'd never done a studio movie before, never done a big franchise. I never thought it would, that would be my path. I was really happy doing indies like Nightcrawler and Four Lions. And I'd suddenly got to be in this film set with Stormtroopers and all these big thing. I was like, "Wow. Is this, is it gonna happen for me?" One week into filming that, I started getting this weird pain in my legs, and I thought, "Okay, maybe I've pulled something during one of the action scenes." And I woke up one morning, and I couldn't get out of bed, and I couldn't walk. Tried to go to a hospital. They were like, they just kind of, like, palmed me off. They didn't, weren't really sure what it was. I went to the hospital back in my parents' neighborhood, the same hospital I was born in. When I was visiting, my parents said, "Let me go and check, get checked out there." They immediately saw what was happening, and they were like, "You need to be admitted to hospital straight away." And I remember saying, "I can't do that. I'm filming Star Wars right now." And they said, "You're in a very dangerous situation right now, and I'll explain to you what's happening, but you need to be hospitalized immediately." And I just felt like, "What's happening to me? Is my life kind of falling apart before my eyes?" I ended up spending two and a half months in hospital. I was unable to walk. I went down to just under 50 kilos.
- RARiz Ahmed
Wow.
- JSJay Shetty
Uh, 100 pounds, you know. I couldn't lift my arms. I couldn't walk. Uh, and I, yeah, I was kind of going to a stroke gym every day. A weird thing happens when your life falls apart like that. When you're confronted with your complete lack of control, it's really humbling. You realize, if I don't even control my own body, then maybe everything that I do have is a gift. And I remember being in hospital, forget going back to s- to film the rest of Star Wars. Forget having a career, ever being able to walk again.
- RARiz Ahmed
I remember be- sat there and seeing, like, a pigeon sat on the windowsill of this NHS hospital and being almost moved to tears with, by its beauty. [laughs] It sounds, maybe sounds crazy, but, uh, maybe you can relate to what I'm saying-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- RARiz Ahmed
... where you're just like, "Man, I did nothing to deserve that pigeon coming to visit me. I get to see it up close." Pigeons are actually amazing. They're, like, a little bit green and red, and you're getting, seeing the sunlight shine off of it. This thing that I'd taken for granted, I was just absolutely blown away by this animal, this wild animal [laughs] that was there, and I felt this sense of such humility and, and gratitude. And I've always believed ever since then, it's when you're brought to your knees that you're halfway towards praying.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
It brings you closer to the love in the universe. And I went on a real journey, and that's when I kind of really started meditating in earnest. I had this kind of crazy, crazy journey where I had to kind of almost grieve and let go of my life the way I thought it would be. And, uh, it was, it was almost like I felt like God or the universe was saying, "You know all this stuff that you want, it's, like, happening for you now, right? Make sure you appreciate it. Don't take it for granted." You know? It was, I was being taught gratitude just before being given the gift.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
My friends are texting me like, "Bro, I've just seen the Star Wars photos, man. Like, you're gonna be in Star Wars." Yeah. I'm in a hospital desperately trying to get the nurse's attention because I can't get up to go to the toilet, and I don't want to wet the bed. My life is just, it couldn't be more different to what people are perceiving it to be. It was something about that experience made me want to start telling work from a personal place, and the reason for that is that I felt a lot of shame around it. I felt a deep sense of shame. And you know, I've never really talked about it publicly even now, but if anyone else going through that right now, I wanted to, wanted to kind of share that and offer that as a, as an experience because I, I felt this kind of weird shame, and I felt this critical inner voice coming out that was like, "You deserve this. This is what you should be. You thought you belonged up here? Nah, you're, you're getting straight back down. This, this, this is, this is your fate. How dare you think you could be happy, you have the things you want." And all this shame and all this kind of, like, this really venomous voice was coming out, and I was like, "Actually, this is the thing that's killing me." The only way to heal myself of that voice is by owning it, is owning my experience, losing my, the shame around my experience, losing my shame around who I am. That's what Mogul Mowgli's about. That's what Bait is about. Because I, I believe, you know, what, what happened to me was a kind of autoimmune condition, right? An autoimmune condition is when the body attacks itself, and I know we're both big fans of that book, The Body Keeps the Score. You know, it was my belief that I was at war with myself, that my critical inner voice was so out of control that I was always attacking myself, beating myself over the stick so much that in a way, my body had turned on itself. I mean, I told this story jokingly before, um, about one, but I'll tell you, which is two years after I'd finished filming The Night Of, I'd still get up in the middle of the night, go to the bathroom, and start running scenes again. This is... The show has come out. I won an Emmy for this role. It's done. Like, I should have moved on with my life. But still in the back of my head it's like, "Not good enough. You're not good enough. It's embarrassing. How... You think that was good? Get back up there. Do it again."
- JSJay Shetty
Wow.
- RARiz Ahmed
So I had this voice in me, and my, it is my belief that that critical inner voice led me to that hospital bed, and I had to look it in the eye and say, "No more shame, man. No more shame. I'm gonna own this. I'm gonna create work from this." And that's what Sound of Metal was. That's where Mogul Mowgli was. Coming from that direct experience, and the universe brought me Sound of Metal, which was also about an artist going through a health crisis. And it was like, "No, no, you're not done with it. You gotta go back there. You gotta make work from this place." Yeah, man, I, I have long, deep history with this critical voice and this shame, and I really think it can kill you, man. It's not something that I've, I'm done with. Um, but I think that critical inner voice just... He's not the guy on the megaphone. But he's a guy who's always gonna be at the party. He's may- if I'm lucky, he's at the corner of the party. As hard as it may be,
- 41:09 – 48:35
Facing Your Darkest Moments Alone
- RARiz Ahmed
talk to me about the lowest moment, the worst day of going through that time in hospital, because those are the moments that we all have experienced rock bottom, but those are the moments you never hear people talk about because they're scary.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
And, and I feel like when I'm hearing you talk about that, I'm like, sounds like you were dealing with a lot. For something mental to become physically that debilitating when you're a fit young man, healthy man in general, like, that means there was, there was a real war within yourself, as you rightly said it. Talk to me as much as you can about that. I was alone at night in the hospital, and, um, they were pumping me full of a lot of steroids intravenously, and steroids keep you up, right? And I couldn't sleep. And I just felt completely alone. Whatever was going on with me, it was resistant to treatment. So I got a tiny bit better, and then it went, it was going south. And they started sensing that maybe there was some s- it might be affecting my heart, and it might be affecting my ability to breathe, and it was certainly was affecting my ability to swallow. I remember this because the people on set of Star Wars [laughs] , God bless them, they carried on sending me food
- JSJay Shetty
... to the hospital. And I was having trouble swallowing it, and, um, I was like, "Am I gonna make my way out of this? Am I gonna die here?" Mm. Is what I started asking myself, and I started talking to God. And I remember that rock bottom moment. Again, like I said, when you're brought to your knees, that's when you're halfway to praying. It was that moment of total helplessness that I started talking to God, and I said, "If you please give me a chance, if you please let me live, I promise you, as much as I can, I w- I w- I will give. I wanna give." And what I meant by that was, and I said, like, "I, I just feel I haven't emptied myself yet. You know, I've got more to give." And I remember just pleading with God, and just the tears just streaming down my face [laughs] and just saying, "Yeah, if you f- if you, if you just let me live, if you let me get through this, I, I promise you, I will, I will empty myself and try and give from whatever you've given me." And, um, it was incredibly scary [laughs] . And, uh, the next morning I remember they said, they said [laughs] that they might have to start a really intensive kind of chemo on me. God, man, I mean, that's like, it's a harrowing time, like, in your life. Like, that's like just ... When I, when I hear about it, 'cause I, I ... Not, not it wasn't life-threatening, but my version of the mental turning into physical was I developed, while I was a monk, I developed polyps in my throat. And so these get on your vocal cords, and people generally get it from, like, vocal exhaustion or lack of vocal rest or some sort of vocal disruption. And I think for us in the monastery, it was mantra, it was chanting- Mm ... it was, you know. And, and I do not have a singing voice for whatever it's worth, but I think my, my vocal range is pretty limited, and I was probably straining. I, I don't even know how it happened. And that's, that's the physical version, but we all know there's, well, from what we're talking about, there's so much more to it, whether it's a lack of expression, a laf- lack of authentic communication of where you're at. And I remember having to get them lasered off my throat, and so I went into surgery, got them lasered off. It's, it's, it's pretty like, you know, you don't feel it. You're sedated. It's not ... And like I said, it's not life-threatening, but, like, for months after you're drinking from a straw 'cause you can't eat proper food. Wow. Okay. And you can't talk, so I have a whiteboard. And I remember moving in back in with my parents at the time because I couldn't be in the monastery, and I would literally write to my mum, like, what I could eat, water, whatever it was. And I'm literally carrying a whiteboard around my neck basically and just writing stuff to my family 'cause I can't say anything. And at that time I'm like, I give speeches at s- um, colleges. I give talks at the temple. I'm, I'm, I'm like, speaking is my thing. Yeah. Like, that's what I do. Of course. And it's all gone. Of course. And it's disappeared, and I, I can't even say anything. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm writing words on a whiteboard. And I remember feeling very similarly to what you're saying about seeing that pigeon, praying to God. Like, I, I c- I can relate to it. And again, like, mine was not life-threatening. It wasn't ... You know, there's a difference between not speaking and not walking. No, but it's profound because it's your, your gift turns to your curse. 100%. And it's like the thing that you are blessed with, which is this ability to communicate and this desire, this purpose you have, that is the thing that's taken from you. Correct. And so how has that affected the way that you ... I mean, did that just make you even more motivated to speak and to choose your words and think about your words? Yeah. I had to go to a vocal coach to train and all of that kind of stuff, and they said that you would get your, you know, your natural voice would come back. It came back softer. I'd lost the raspiness and the depth of my voice, so I sounded different. Now I, now I sound back to normal. If anything, maybe it's a bit better now, so [laughs] I'll take it. But, like, at the time it was like, I was like, "God, I'm gonna have to learn how to talk again." Mm. Like, that's how it felt. And what it did for me was a few things. I remember talking to one spiritual guide at the time, and I said to him, I said, "I can't speak to God out loud anymore. Like, I can't hear myself talk to God. I can't chant. I can't ..." Mantra is such a big part of Eastern tradition. "I can't, I can't chant out loud." And you're meant to chant out loud- Mm ... so you can hear the spiritual sacred sound. Like, that's our practice. Mm. And he goes to me, he goes, "God's teaching you to chant with your heart." Like, and I was like, "God, like, that, that..." At that time I just remember that, like, hitting me. It was like, he was like, "Yeah, you think, well, you think you talk to God out loud? Like, you think that's what God listens to?" He was like, "God's listening to this. Like, God knows what's going on in here. It's got nothing to do with sound and voice." And I was like, "Wow, that's, that's huge, to learn to talk to God with my heart." Wow. Like, what, like, what does that even mean? Yes. And then at the same time it's what you said, where it was like, okay, now that my voice is starting to come back, how am I gonna respect the fact that I have a voice? Like, to, and, you know, to not take it for granted. To be like, how can you feel that this ease with which we're talking right now- Mm. Mm ... and we're communicating and I can hear you, you can hear me, when that goes away, God, life feels colorless and- Mm ... you know, and it loses so much value. And so again, and, you know, I, we were talking about this offline as well, like, when you, of course you forget all this. You start taking all the gifts for granted again. You probably have to in a way to try and kinda move through the trauma. But I don't know if you have moments where you remember that and you just sink into that deep sense of humility and gratitude and- Humility is the word. I mean, you're taking me back there actually. I don't think I've actually thought about this. I don't even, I don't think I've talked about it publicly, to be honest myself. I, I don't, I can't remember if I've actually talked about it. Mm. And I'm being reminded of your ex- like, your, your experience triggering me, going, yeah, like, that, you know- That was intense ... that was intense. And, and I don't- That was traumatic. Yeah. Yeah, it was traumatic. But all
- 48:35 – 51:59
Breaking Free from the Alpha Male Myth
- JSJay Shetty
of that to say with all of yours, talk to me about-Where does the shame come from going through something like that and then not wanting to share it? Because I think there's the pain of going through something traumatic, and there's, then there's the pain of communicating it to a group of people who may or may not actually understand what the hell you just went through.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
But talk to me about where was the shame for you in wanting to share that, and what kept it in for so long?
- RARiz Ahmed
I, I will, but can I first tell you something about your voice?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Um, I love your voice.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
Uh, but here's the thing. When I, sometimes I'm walking down the street, it doesn't happen to me a lot, but it's happened to me enough times that I wanna mention it. Sometimes people stop me and they say, say I'm on the phone or whatever, they've heard me talking, they go, "Sorry, can I just tell you, you sound exactly like Jay Shetty."
- JSJay Shetty
That is hilarious. I'll take that as a compliment.
- RARiz Ahmed
I take it as a compliment, bro.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
You'd make an amazing emcee.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
I think you got a great, you got a great voice for that.
- JSJay Shetty
There, there used to be-
- RARiz Ahmed
We need the album
- JSJay Shetty
... a few mixtapes in the past.
- RARiz Ahmed
There we go.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on, man.
- RARiz Ahmed
There it is.
- JSJay Shetty
You know.
- RARiz Ahmed
So I just wanna-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
... I'm gonna give your voice its flowers. Um, yeah, the shame, you know, I think the, the show is about this idea of wanting to be James Bond.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- RARiz Ahmed
I wanted that. I mean, who, who doesn't? Or if not exactly that, a version of that. Now what I mean by that is, like, you wanna aspire to this archetype of, of heroism.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- RARiz Ahmed
And that is about being this kind of invulnerable, powerful alpha male, whatever that means. Although hilariously, I mean, the alpha male in a wolf pack is the animal that lets the kids beat it up the most.
- JSJay Shetty
Wow. Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
You know? And is, like, the most chill and the least aggressive, right?
- 51:59 – 54:46
When Your Inner Critic Becomes Your Identity
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, no, I, I really believe you sharing that, especially talking about perception in that externally everyone can be like, "Oh, you're winning. Your career's been amazing. You've won Emmys, like Oscar nom..." You know, all this stuff. And it's like to actually go, oh, wait a minute, even him, like, there's, there's stuff he's going through, not only is affecting him mentally, physically, and that mental-physical connection that I want people to make here, which I know you do too, which is this idea that a lot of what we're going through physically is coming from some sort of emotional block, mental block. And in Bait, you visualize that as this severed pig's head-
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... which, which is this Patrick Stewart voice severed pig's head.
- RARiz Ahmed
So yes, the critical inner voice in Bait is a severed pig's head. It was sent to the family as a racist attack, and it's about, I guess, how we can internalize the criticism of us, internalize the prejudice. So it starts to become almost like his best friend. Like, and for me, for a long time, my critical inner voice was something I didn't wanna lose. I was worried that if I make peace with it or turn the volume down on that too much, I'll get lazy. I'll get complacent. I remember even when, when we won an Oscar for our short film-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- RARiz Ahmed
... it's so funny, it was almost like the Oscar was looking at me going, "You ain't shit." The kinda elation lasted as long as me going there, collecting it, going backstage, going to the toilet, coming back, and sitting down again. By the time I sat down, in fact, I would say my critical inner voice was at an all-time high when I was sat there holding that Oscar in my hand, 'cause it was almost like a survival mechanism. My brain was going, or that voice, that part of my brain was going, "Don't put your feet up now. Don't think you can get complacent. Don't kick back."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
"I've programmed you to strive, not to savor, and so you now are gonna really crack the whip." It's just, it was just going crazy. I remember sitting there in that seat, having the most aggressively critical thoughts to myself. It was, it was like out of control.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
But in the show, it's played by a severed pig's head. I want you to know there was a moment, a long moment, where I was like, "It has to be Jay Shetty."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
We ended up getting Sir Patrick Stewart.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I know. I mean, I'll take it.
- RARiz Ahmed
So you lost the role to someone who's...
- JSJay Shetty
I'll take it.
- RARiz Ahmed
I thought it has to be a really kind of es- super established actor, one of the greats, so it makes Shah, my character, feel insecure.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
Actually-
- JSJay Shetty
Happily, it's Sir Patrick
- RARiz Ahmed
... what if you were my evil twin? I mean, there's not... There's slight resemblance maybe. I'm-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah
- RARiz Ahmed
... um, I was like, "Yeah, what if it should be Jay? Jay should be my critical inner voice."
- JSJay Shetty
That would be hilarious.
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
That would've been so funny. But no, Pat- Sir Patrick Stewart was, was the right choice.
- RARiz Ahmed
It, it was one of those moments in the, in the show where you're like, "What?"
- 54:46 – 58:13
Managing the Voice Inside Your Head
- RARiz Ahmed
Like, it's such a surprise.
- JSJay Shetty
Right. Right. Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Talk to me about that, because I think what you just identified is the high performer's and overachiever's curse, where-The inner critic is what drives you to extraordinary success.
- JSJay Shetty
Do you think?
- RARiz Ahmed
Usually, right?
- JSJay Shetty
Usually, from everyone I've interviewed, whether it's basketball players, whether it's tennis players, whether it's F1 drivers, like they all-
- RARiz Ahmed
They all say the same thing, basically
- JSJay Shetty
... uh, the athletes who I think are playing at the levels where every inch counts and every minute matters, they all have this crazy inner critic which they have to learn what to do with it because in the moment they have to believe that this point is the only thing that matters. And then as soon as they win or lose the point, they have to believe that point doesn't matter at all.
- RARiz Ahmed
Wow.
- JSJay Shetty
Because that's the switch there. So the, their code switch or that, and that's, is that, is like, "When I'm playing this point, this is the most important point in the world. And then as soon as the point's over, whether I win or lost the point, that point's irrelevant."
- RARiz Ahmed
So you need the inner critic and the inner cheerleader.
- JSJay Shetty
Totally. You've gotta-
- RARiz Ahmed
And you've got to basically be able to toggle between them both. Yeah, it's, it's strange. I don't wanna believe that it, the inner critic is the jet fuel. I wanna believe that it's, like, one of the engines.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Right? But there's gotta be that other engine. Because, you know, I also feel that, yes, I feel like the inner critic or that fear of failure, the possibility of shame, all these things can drive us. But I think it can also make us quite tense. And I think our best performances come when we're in a state of flow, and that is about, like you were saying, too tight, too loose. That is also about being kinda loose. That's about joy. It's about openness and receptivity and play and curiosity.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
All those things that the critic does not really give us. And so, yeah, for me it's like on that mixing desk of the voices in my head. You don't wanna hear the voices in my head, Jay.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
There's a lot of them. You're one of them.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
But I, I'm trying to just find that right balance and find the right moment to bring up that cheerleader versus the critic.
- JSJay Shetty
I'm glad you said that because I, I would agree with you and I would encourage people to go there, especially if you're a high achiever, a high performer, or even if you, you have goals and you think the only way to get there is to make yourself feel bad and beat yourself up. And to actually go, "Well, that isn't the way I wanna get there. There is a way of getting there that isn't that." That just seems to be the most common way that a lot of successful people have got there, but then they didn't like where they got either.
- RARiz Ahmed
I think it can get you to a place, but then it will kill you.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
You know, people would whip horses to, like, make them run faster.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
You're gonna kill that horse at some point, man.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
You're gonna really hurt it.
- JSJay Shetty
It's gonna get exhausted, yeah.
- 58:13 – 1:01:42
Why Does Time Go By Faster as We Grow Older?
- JSJay Shetty
there's this beautiful quote from George Bernard Shaw that I love where he said, "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing."
- RARiz Ahmed
Oof.
- JSJay Shetty
And I love that. Like, it just, it's so good 'cause I'm like, yeah, like that's why we feel old, is because we stop playing, we stop being curious, we stop marveling at the greatness of a Velcro shoe. That simplicity. And that's why ti- I was, I was looking into it actually because that's why, as we get older, I'm sure you feel this way too, time just flies. Every adult I talk to, they're like, "Yeah, God, time's just going faster."
- RARiz Ahmed
But apparently that is a proven fact, that, that our brains subjectively experience time differently as we get older.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- RARiz Ahmed
So in terms of subjectively the spread of our life, um, and how it feels to our brains is 50% of our life is lived between the age of zero and eight years old.
- JSJay Shetty
Which is crazy.
- RARiz Ahmed
That's like half of it. 'Cause of how a day feels when you're a little kid, how expansive and huge it can feel, and how quick a year can feel towards the tail end. So yeah, as you're starting to feel more and more conscious of time and its passage, like, what is that doing for you? Is that just mean streamlining and focusing on the things you really want to, or h- how are you managing with that?
- JSJay Shetty
At one point in my life, I listened to Steve Jobs' Stanford commencement speech every day for nine months.
- RARiz Ahmed
Wow.
- JSJay Shetty
In my opinion, it's the best speech ever given because he also knew he was gonna die. So I feel like when someone knows they're gonna die-
- RARiz Ahmed
It's that death awareness meditation-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- RARiz Ahmed
... right? It's a big part of the kind of-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- RARiz Ahmed
... monastic tradition in Eastern philosophy.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, absolutely. And it's like every word mattered. Like, he didn't, that wasn't performance. If you, if you see him do it, he also just reads it, like, deadpan. Like, there's no performance, there's no emphasis, there's no poet- like, he's not trying.
- RARiz Ahmed
It's just truth.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, 'cause he knows he's gonna die. So it's like there's a l- so I listened to that, and there's a line in it that just goes, like, something like, and I'll butcher it so people should listen to the real thing, but he, he literally says something like, "Every few days if I, I check in with myself and I ask myself and I look in the mirror like, 'Am I doing what I wanna do if this was my last day?' And if, uh, after three or four days, the answer isn't, 'This is what I should be doing,' then I know I've got something to change." And I'm like, I don't think we can all live like that all the time. I think, I think there's, you know, people have responsibilities and pressures and whatever. But I think there's truth to the idea of, did you call the person that you would call if it was your last day? Did you talk to your partner in the way you would if it was the last time you were gonna talk to them? Did you look at your kid before you went out to work in a way that you would want them to know was how much you loved them? Like, I think all those things do matter. That applies even if you've gotta go to a job every day and you've gotta say hello to people. It's like, did you behave with everyone in the way that you wanna be remembered?
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I think that is important to me and-I think it's streamlining, I think it's focusing, I think it's all those things. But really it's more about, it's less about what I do and it's more about who I am in, in that what is the spirit of my being. I've noticed versions of that where, like, in order to become successful I've had to be more technical, I've had to be more strategic-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... I've had to be more organized, I've had to be... Whatever, whatever the words are. And then I go, "But I'm just a guy who loves the heart." Like, I'm... That's who I am at the core of, like, I'm just a guy who just wants to, like, love and be loved. Like, that's who I am at my essence.
- RARiz Ahmed
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
And who are the people who can take me back to that in this crazy world where I have to be all these other versions of myself in order to do the thing?
- 1:01:42 – 1:03:47
Home Is the People You Love
- RARiz Ahmed
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
People always say, like, "What's your favorite place?" And I'm like, "I'm never looking for my favorite place, I'm looking for my favorite people." Because as long as I'm with my favorite people-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... it doesn't matter where I am.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And so I'm looking for people actively always-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... that keep taking me back to that place within my heart, and can do it quicker, more beautifully, more gracefully, more elegantly. And I find I'm... Some of them are old friends that I've had for 20, 25 years.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And some of them are new people that I just met last year.
- RARiz Ahmed
People who can make you more yourself.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. But-
- RARiz Ahmed
People who can make you forget yourself.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. People who go beyond the avatar.
- RARiz Ahmed
Um, or the performance of your... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
The avatar. Like, the, the person who's not getting you to play up to your avatar or your, you know, what... And so I'm looking, I'm always looking to c- not collect, as in there's... I don't need a million of those people, but you gotta find a few people that-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... you just drop in, your nervous system calms down, you know?
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
The, the active mind switches off.
- RARiz Ahmed
So important.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
So important. It's interesting you say that, because, like, you know, we're in LA right now, and I had a very kind of like... You're making me think about this, uh, because I, I had this narrative where I was like, "I don't like LA." And you're actually making me think about this as, like, there are periods of time when I've adored LA.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
And the thing that was surprising to me now is just before coming here, I was like, "Oh, I gotta go to LA, man." Being from London, like, I like walking and, you know, and I like driving, and everything's spread out. And I was like, "You don't see anyone." And all these kind of cliched criticisms, right? And yet I walk around today in LA absolutely loving it, 'cause I'm with my wife, with my kid, I'm with family. You know, family has come to visit. The house is full. And it's suddenly like being back as a kid [laughs] surrounded by clapping aunties.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
Or whatever, you know what I mean? It was just, it just feels like that environment. Um, it feels like home. And absolutely it's the people, man. It's the people that make the place, 100%. And, and yeah, I was kind of confronted with that realization this morning. I was like, "Oh yeah, I've just slipped into this kind of lazy narrative." It's like, it's not what it's about.
- 1:03:47 – 1:06:35
Setting Boundaries to Protect Your Creativity
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And, and, and the timepiece too that you brought up that I think is a really valuable thing is, like, how much can I not try and fill time, and how much can I not try and be distracted?
- RARiz Ahmed
I find it hard, like, kind of doing nothing.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Something that is starting to help is reading.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
I'm very poorly read.
- JSJay Shetty
No, I don't believe that.
- RARiz Ahmed
No, I-
- JSJay Shetty
Really?
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah. I'm, I kind of like-
- JSJay Shetty
Dude, through your work. I would like... You know?
- RARiz Ahmed
I pick up a lot of things in, like, um... I listen to a lot of music, I listen to podcasts, I watch talks, I go to talks, I talk to people. Um, but I had, like, growing up crazy ADHD, and I would get into a lot of trouble at school. Now I look back, I'm like, "Oh, of course, that's what that was." And, uh, you know, there's loads of w- different ways in which that manifests. So sitting down to read a book was like torture.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- RARiz Ahmed
It was historically, again, the narrative, "Oh, I don't r- read. I can't read." Recently, particularly being married to a novelist, that was like, "This is a bit of a deal breaker. You need to be reading books. You need to at least read my book." I was like, "Okay, I've gotta sit down and do this." That is the thing that is allowing me to, like, sit and kind of do nothing. Again, it's forgetting myself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
You know what I mean?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
But I otherwise struggle with it. I can very easily fill time, create a new idea. "Now let's progress it. What if we do that? What if we..." And I'm sure... I don't know, how do you manage that? Is that something that you're also navigating?
- JSJay Shetty
I had to set rules around it, because I'm like that as well. I feel like I'm a creative brain. I like, I like building stuff, I like playing with stuff. But I had to start just building real parameters around that where-
- RARiz Ahmed
And what do you mean? Like-
- JSJay Shetty
I like-
- RARiz Ahmed
As in you don't work after 6:00 PM?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
What does that-
- JSJay Shetty
Literally like, yeah. It's like I won't think about work or be on my phone after 6:00 PM, because to me, that rest and renewal is where the best ideas come out. Talking about flow state, I can't invent flow, I can't engineer it, I can't manufacture it. And so for it to exist, I need to be in this lucid state where Riz said something that randomly allowed for me to be inspired at 8:00 PM, and it came up, and that's fine. But I don't need to act on it immediately. I just need to let it breathe and let it sit.
- RARiz Ahmed
Letting it sit. Best ideas come on the toilet seat, bro.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
In the shower.
- JSJay Shetty
In the shower.
- RARiz Ahmed
But actually, we started taking our phones to the toilets. The toilet's now not the creative mecca it used to be.
- 1:06:35 – 1:12:01
Finding Where You Truly Belong
- JSJay Shetty
from you. So what's the hardest mask you've had to take off?
- RARiz Ahmed
I think it was probably around my health, yeah. You know, kind of letting people into that. Even when it was happening, I was trying to keep people at a distance. I didn't want people to see me like that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Particularly if I thought, I was like, "If I might die, then I don't want people to remember me like this," almost. You know? So I, I think it was that. I think it was when I was at my most vulnerable, letting people in on what was happening, and starting to slowly share that.
- JSJay Shetty
What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong?
- RARiz Ahmed
... different parts of me in every place that I go to.
- JSJay Shetty
That's interesting, yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
And I think a lot of people feel like that, a lot of creative people feel like that. I've learned to embrace that, actually. I actually feel like having a slight outsider's perspective is, can be kind of fun.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
It allows me to, like, enjoy things at a distance as well. But yeah, I mean, all the time. I mean, ah, you know, I remember going to meet the Queen and accidentally trying to fist bump her.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] That's so good.
- RARiz Ahmed
It was, like, a British film industry-
- JSJay Shetty
Right, right, right
- RARiz Ahmed
... reception. Everyone lines up. She put her hand out like this. From the angle that I was at, I thought she was going like this. I went like this. The security went like this.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
And I ended up just going like this.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
You know, it was super weird.
- JSJay Shetty
You struck the Queen.
- RARiz Ahmed
Uh, yeah, a, a ring. So, um, I don't know, man, like, there's, there's all these kind of moments of feeling like a fish out of water that now I actually kind of, like, I quite enjoy being like, "Where am I? What is this?" You know? It's something you can laugh about later.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's a better story, too.
- RARiz Ahmed
I think so. Yeah, if you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, then you're probably not in the right place. David Bowie says this thing of it's when you can't feel the bottom of the swimming pool is you know you're in the right place. You know, you're slightly out of your depth, working it out.
- JSJay Shetty
That's beautiful. I love that. That's, and that's one of the reasons why I've, I actually like living in LA, 'cause I'm reminded of my insignificance daily.
- RARiz Ahmed
'Cause it's so big.
- JSJay Shetty
Because it's so big, and I go to an event, and I'm the least important person in the room, and I love it because the only conversation I'll have is a really meaningful one. Because the only person who's aware of me is someone who's connected to the kind of work I do.
- RARiz Ahmed
Wow.
- JSJay Shetty
And then that allows me to bask in the glory of the rarity of that human and the interaction we just had. So I try to belong to one person than belong to a room or a place or a space, because belonging to one person is kind of all we're looking for anyway. It's like when you meet one person and you go, "Oh, God, we..." Even, like, you know, "We're from the same area," like, you know, "We know the same people," like, that to me in a busy, big room is like pure joy-
- RARiz Ahmed
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... that I know even the person winning an award on stage, as you've rightly just said, isn't even feeling.
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- 1:12:01 – 1:14:24
Growing Up in Northwest London
- JSJay Shetty
I feel like we have to give a bunch of shout-outs to places in North and Northwest London that we grew up around, 'cause we gotta go niche. We were talking about this before. We were like-
- RARiz Ahmed
Some deep cuts
- JSJay Shetty
... we could have done a whole interview-
- RARiz Ahmed
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... about North, Northwest London, and no one else would've got us apart from our hometown, which we love.
- RARiz Ahmed
So this is for the 15 people-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
... that know exactly what we're talking about.
- JSJay Shetty
I'm gonna start with the one I said to you earlier, Kebabish, 'cause-
- RARiz Ahmed
Kebabish
- JSJay Shetty
... Kebabish is like-
- RARiz Ahmed
On, on Ealing Road.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Kebabish is literally a place that I shout-out on my last rap song.
- JSJay Shetty
Do you know what? When I said that to you earlier, I didn't even know that.
- RARiz Ahmed
I just did a track called We Good with, uh, Cassis, and it's on the Bait soundtrack, actually.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
I name-checked Kebabish specifically, and the amount of people from my past who reached out and texted me, like, "Bro, Kebabish. You remember those days-
- JSJay Shetty
That's hilarious
- RARiz Ahmed
... when we used to go Kebabish?" The garlic mayo.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
My mouth is watering as I'm s- talking. It's actually the naan. It's the freshness of the naan. Shout-out Kebabish, Ealing Road.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
Okay, yeah, that's a good one.
- JSJay Shetty
All right.
- RARiz Ahmed
What about, were you St. Ann's or St. George's? These are two shopping malls in Harrow in Northwest London, right?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah. Whichever one the girl I was dating wanted to go to.
- RARiz Ahmed
Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
So it was like, it was like I was-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah
- 1:14:24 – 1:26:55
Riz on Final Five
- JSJay Shetty
But Riz, we end every interview with the Final Five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum.
- RARiz Ahmed
Oh, God. Here we go.
- JSJay Shetty
So Riz, these are your Final Five, brought to you by State Farm. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
- RARiz Ahmed
Idris Elba once said to me, "Categorize yourself not."
- JSJay Shetty
Explain.
- RARiz Ahmed
I'd hit a glass ceiling in my career in the UK. He was like, "You should go to America." I'm like, "Bro, what are they gonna do with a guy like me over there? They're gonna do nothing. I'm this, they don't have that. They have that, I'm not this." And he went, "Categorize yourself not, my friend." And actually when you do that, you're doing other people's work for them. It's about the limitations people place on you, how we internalize them, and then we perpetuate that narrative and go, "Well, I'm this. This is my lane. I'm this flavor." There's so many different sides to who you are. I told him that recently, and he was like... I was like, "Bro, do you remember that conversation?" He was like, "Nah, no memory of that whatsoever." I was like, "Great. Thanks a lot, bro."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
Um, but it's those throwaway moments, right, when people kind of like see you differently to how you used to be seen.
- JSJay Shetty
Did you feel that? Like, was that hard? I know the representation conversation's overplayed. I know those conversations have happened of just like, you know, making it as a Brown man in Hollywood. You've, you've done that, but what is the reality of that? Because we say that, and then you're like, "Well, wait a minute. Actually, no, I haven't done that 'cause I-"
- RARiz Ahmed
I think that there's a reality that for women, for people of color, for people who are differently abled, there is a lot more resistance. I definitely do feel like sometimes I have to work, you know, twice as hard to get half as far. But I'm also kind of starting to feel like that is, gives my journey more meaning-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- RARiz Ahmed
... to me, but I know for a fact also for s- many others, you know?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
And that actually I think more and more friction is what gives life its meaning. You know, you order a meal on Deliveroo, it does not taste the same as you've taken that time to cook that for yourself. Shout out Deliveroo.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- RARiz Ahmed
I'm not saying that, uh, I... Don't do that. But I'm just kind of like, I, I, I just feel like it's what's given my journey its, its meaning for, for me, and I know for others. So I wouldn't s- I wouldn't change it. I think for a long time I'd say, "I wish I could swap that out. Wish I could make that different." But I don't feel that way anymore.
- JSJay Shetty
What advice would you give to someone who is a person of color, differently abled, who is a woman, a gender that may have any of these experiences? What would you say to them? Because I think the bitterness, the pain, the rejection-
- RARiz Ahmed
It's real
- JSJay Shetty
... is real. Yeah.
- RARiz Ahmed
It's real. It's justified. It's not imagined. I don't wanna gaslight anyone who's going through that. It's hard. I would say, you know, my experience is like the gift and the curse are usually the same thing.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
You losing your voice has made you so conscious of what you're communicating and how, and the words you're choosing. There's so many examples I can think of in, in my own journey where the, the thing that I thought was blocking me, if I just lean into it, it could unlock something. And I would say to all of those people, the thing about you that's different is an obstacle in certain ways, but it's also the key.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- RARiz Ahmed
And I would say lean into the specificity of your experience of who you are. You know, I went to Oxford University and felt very out of place there on many different levels, and my experience there taught me something, which is that actually... 'Cause I, I was thinking about quitting after the first month. I was like, "What the hell am I doing here?" Kind of had a mental health kind of breakdown almost over there, and felt super depressed, super kind of like an alien. But I, I kind of feel like now the place where you stick out, if you can, if you can find the support, if it doesn't hurt you, the place that you stick out is a place where you should kind of stick it out. You have an opportunity of changing the temperature in that room, of bringing other people into that room.
- JSJay Shetty
I love that, man. Yeah. It, it reminds me of the stoic statement of the obstacle is the way.
- RARiz Ahmed
Oh, wow.
- JSJay Shetty
Just that idea of like the obstacle is the way. There i- there is no other way, and so that obstacle, whether it's how you're set up or your background or your uniqueness or-
- RARiz Ahmed
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
All right. Question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
- RARiz Ahmed
It was one of the first casting directors I ever met said, um, "Hey, nice to meet you, Riz. Um, just be careful about your eyes. You can look like a bit of a psychopath sometimes."
Episode duration: 1:26:56
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Transcript of episode ESNrG6l_Qf8
