Skip to content

By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

Robert Waldinger ON: If You STRUGGLE To Find Happiness In Life, WATCH THIS! | Jay Shetty

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour.

Dr. Robert WaldingerguestJay Shettyhost
Feb 6, 20231h 10mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 3:23

    Intro

    1. RW

      When we asked our original participants in our study, "You're 80 years old now. When you look back on your life, what do you regret the most?" More than anything, many of them said, "I wish I hadn't spent so much time worrying about what other people thought." The bestselling author and host.

    2. JS

      The number one health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, I know that you're here because you want to improve your happiness, you want to improve your health, and you want to improve your healing. And there are certain guests that I always love having on the show that I have on multiple times, and today's guest, this is their second appearance, and I couldn't be more happy to speak to them because they also have a new book that I have been eagerly waiting for since I met them. I'm talking about the special Robert Waldinger, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, and co-founder of the Lifespan Research Foundation. Dr. Waldinger received his AB from Harvard College and his MD from Harvard Medical School. Dr. Waldinger is a practicing psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, and he directs a psychotherapy teaching program for Harvard psychiatry residents. He's also a zen master and teaches meditation in New England and around the world. And Robert is the co-author of the book, The Good Life: Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness. This is the book that I want you to go and order, The Good Life: Lessons From the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness. If you've ever heard me talk about the 75-year study of happiness, if you've ever read that article, it's quoted absolutely everywhere. This is the man who completed that 75-year study. I believe the fourth of the researchers involved in that program. Uh, I couldn't recommend this book more. Dr. Robert Waldinger, or Bob, uh, and I met in Montana, courtesy of Arthur Blank, who brought us all together at his beautiful ranch in Montana, introduced us to probably some of the most amazing people in the world in this space.

    3. RW

      Yeah. Yeah.

    4. JS

      We instantly connected, A, because I geek out on research and science, but more importantly, because we both have this meditation and mindfulness practice that we both-

    5. RW

      Yeah

    6. JS

      ... deeply love. Uh, and beyond that, we just had a natural-flowing conversation. So Bob, thank you for coming back. Thank you for flying in from Boston to New York to do this interview. It's so good to see you again.

    7. RW

      Well, it's a treat to get to see you again.

    8. JS

      [laughs]

    9. RW

      Uh, I, that, that's the big incentive for me to get on a plane and come here-

    10. JS

      [laughs] Well-

    11. RW

      ... just to get to see you.

    12. JS

      No, but I appreciate it. I want, you know, my community appreciates it. I was just saying to you earlier that we made this rule for On Purpose again, where we only wanted interviews to be physical because I miss this. Like, I miss looking at someone. I miss being able to hug someone. I miss being able to have even the before and afterwards. When you do a Zoom interview, you lose the before and afterwards. You're there for the interview, and you... Whereas we've been talking for the last half an hour already.

    13. RW

      Right.

    14. JS

      And so I, I wanted to hear from you because you said something interesting to me. You said, you know, I'm sure someone's studying it. You're not studying it yet. Let's think about that a little bit. What

  2. 3:23 – 5:16

    The pros and cons of remote conversations

    1. JS

      do you think is gained or what can be done meaningfully through Zoom or virtually, but then what is lost in your opinion, in your thoughts, and-

    2. RW

      Mm

    3. JS

      ... from your intuition on that?

    4. RW

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      [laughs]

    6. RW

      Well, some of the most important things are about accessibility. Like, what we're finding is that people who can't be together physically, obviously, can be together online, or people who are frightened. So, you know, I'm a psychiatrist, and many people are really scared to talk to someone about their problems. Well, what if you could be in your own home-

    7. JS

      Mm

    8. RW

      ... and you could just dip a toe in the water by, by trying a video chat with, with someone who's a professional? And I've seen people do that with huge benefit. So in that sense, the accessibility, um, is wonderful.

    9. JS

      That's such a great answer.

    10. RW

      And people in remote areas and all of that. Um, what's lost, I think, are just what you've been describing, this, the casual interactions that we have and that we love, that we take for granted. I mean, it's a reason why, you know, people talk about the water cooler at the workplace or the coffee machine. It's where people run into each other, and they have these little conversations that might turn out to be hugely important, might turn out to spread ideas or give people a glimpse of a person they find interesting who they've never met before. And so those are the things I'm afraid that we're losing-

    11. JS

      Yeah

    12. RW

      ... remotely.

    13. JS

      Yeah. I think that's a brilliant answer, and I love the, I love the perspective that there's actually a positive and a challenge to every situation in life, and if we lean into the positives, it can be more meaningful, it can be more powerful, and instead of obsessing on the negatives. But

  3. 5:16 – 13:10

    This 75-Year Harvard Study

    1. JS

      let's, let's talk about the 75-year study. For anyone who doesn't know about this study, could you just give us a quick synthesis or synopsis of what you were looking at, the types of things that you were assessing, the types of behaviors, and then of course, the more scientific result that you gained from doing that study?

    2. RW

      So what's wonderful for me about this study is that it has followed the same people for their entire adult lives. That's completely unheard of in the history of science. It just doesn't happen. So we started with people who were teenagers and followed them for, now we're about to enter our 85th year, uh- We've followed people for 85 years. Most of the original people have passed away, as you can imagine.

    3. JS

      Of course.

    4. RW

      But we've started studying their children, who are all baby boomers. And what's unique about it is to be able to see how lives really unfold, not how we remember them. 'Cause if you think about it, when we try to remember what happened to us, there's, there are big holes in our memories.

    5. JS

      Mm. Mm.

    6. RW

      Right?

    7. JS

      Very well, yes. Yeah, yeah.

    8. RW

      And we, and we get creative about... You know-

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. RW

      ... I'll, I'll make up stuff, and then, like-

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. RW

      ... my, my wife will correct me and say, "No, it didn't happen that way."

    13. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. RW

      And she's always right.

    15. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    16. RW

      And so I think to, to be able to follow lives forward and not know what the outcome is gonna be is just amazing. So, so that's the, the big picture. We started, it started in 1938 with two studies that didn't even know about each other, a group of Harvard College undergraduate students who were chosen by their deans as fine, upstanding young men.

    17. JS

      [laughs]

    18. RW

      And in a study of how people were going to develop from adolescence to young adulthood. They thought maybe the study would go for 10 years. They never dreamed I'd be talking to you today about the study still going 85 years later. The other was a study of boys from Boston's poorest and most troubled families in the 1930s, um, because a group of researchers were interested in why some children from really difficult backgrounds stayed out of trouble. How did they stay on healthy developmental paths? And so we studied a group of young men who hadn't gotten into trouble, even though their families were plagued by poverty, and illness, and crime, and all kinds of difficulty. So those two we've studied together, two ends of the spectrum. And now, fortunately, we've added women. Um, we started out with all white males because that's what the city of Boston had in 1938 for research just to study. And fortunately, more than half women, um, more people from different backgrounds, lots of immigrants. So we're very excited about this kind of diverse sample that we've grown into.

    19. JS

      Tell us a bit about the findings over the 75 years. Now, obviously, 85. But tell us a bit about that core finding. Because I think the most common finding that's stated is that in this Harvard 75-year study, that when you look at the indicators of human happiness, the quality of our relationships was seen as the number one indicator. Was there a number two? Was there a number three? Or, or was it just so far out? Like, tell us a bit about the findings, and then we'll dive into the number one finding.

    20. RW

      Right. Well, the biggest findings were about relationships, but also about taking care of our health-

    21. JS

      Mm

    22. RW

      ... taking care of our bodies.

    23. JS

      Mm.

    24. RW

      Um, one of our study members said, "Take care of your body as though you're gonna need it for 100 years."

    25. JS

      Mm.

    26. RW

      And so what we do find, um, and many other studies find, is that getting regular exercise, eating well, getting decent sleep, getting regular medical care if you can, all of those things, not smoking, not using alcohol or drugs, um, not abusing at least, um, that all of those turn out to have huge effects on how long we live, how healthy we stay.

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RW

      But the surprising thing was what you named, which is this finding that the people who stayed healthiest and lived longest had the best and the warmest connections with other human beings. When we started seeing that in our data, we didn't believe it.

    29. JS

      Mm.

    30. RW

      'Cause we thought, "Well, how?" You know, okay, I mean, if I have nice relationships, it'll keep me happier, sure. But how could it actually keep me from getting arthritis-

  4. 13:10 – 17:45

    The three flavors of happiness

    1. JS

      When we talk about the good life-

    2. RW

      Mm

    3. JS

      ... which is such a elusive topic for so long, you know, I feel like we've been studying the good life through culture, through spirituality, through philosophy for thousands of years.

    4. RW

      Mm.

    5. JS

      But the amount of advancement we've made in that pursuit is very little compared to going to the moon or going to space or even healthcare, for that matter. I think even healthcare from a physical health perspective has had so much acceleration, but our understanding of the mind and the heart still seems to be fairly limited. And when you see those goals, you see, okay, that's what people are aspiring for. What is someone who's living the good life aspiring for? Because I think we often think of a good life as these habits, but what is a good aspiration if the aspiration's not money, not fame, not a successful career?

    6. RW

      Well, the aspiration can be different for different people. So they've, they've done research on this.

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. RW

      And, and they, they have these different types of wellbeing. There's one called hedonic wellbeing, which is, um, what we all think of as, as just enjoying a good party, a good meal, having a good conversation. I'm really enjoying this conversation right now. I'm having hedonic wellbeing, right? But other people, uh, well, all of us to some extent want also a sense of purpose and a sense of meaning. It's called eudaimonic wellbeing. The best example is you have a small child who you read to at night before bed, and you're reading the book Goodnight Moon, and your child wants you to read that book for the eighth time.

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. RW

      And you are exhausted, right? Ugh. Is it fun? Uh, no. But is it the most meaningful thing you could imagine doing? Absolutely. And so this sense of I'm doing this because I love it, because I'm on purpose, because I care deeply about what I'm doing, that's a different kind of wellbeing. And then there's a third kind that they've begun to identify, which is a, a psychologically rich life. So many of us value just having interesting experiences, going to new places, doing things we've never done before. So those three things, having a good time now, feeling like I'm doing meaningful activity, and feeling like I'm having interesting experiences, those are all flavors of happiness.

    11. JS

      Right.

    12. RW

      And I think that each of us is a mix of all three, but some of us really want one more than the others.

    13. JS

      Is it meant to be balanced, or is it that... Is there a hierarchy of n- needs there, or how... What have, what have we learned about those three areas?

    14. RW

      Mm, well, there's officially, there's no, there's no right or wrong way, but what we know, and I think we know this from spiritual traditions more than, than my science-

    15. JS

      Mm

    16. RW

      ... that when we do, uh, invest in things outside of the s- the self, we are happier.

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. RW

      And we're happier for longer, and we feel more of a sense that life is worth living. So I would say that we need to be sure we have some of that so we don't end up looking back and saying, "Gosh, I wasted my life."

    19. JS

      I feel like one of the m- most difficult things for a lot of people today is self-awareness, in being aware of what we think is good for us, what we think is right for us.

    20. RW

      Mm.

    21. JS

      I even had a friend say to me yesterday, they said to me, "Yeah, I think I'm actually gonna say no to that opportunity now, because I realized I was only going to say yes because of what people thought." And so you see that a lot, where so many of our choices and our decisions are based on what other people think is good for us or what other people think is right for us. I remember growing up and only wanting to aspire for things that other people rewarded. So if the most celebrated and respected person in my community growing up was an actuary for a career, I wanted to be an actuary at 10 years old, but if you asked me what an actuary did-

    22. RW

      [laughs]

    23. JS

      ... I had zero idea.

    24. RW

      Exactly.

    25. JS

      And I think that this idea perpetuates. So what can we do to get closer to knowing what is good for us so that we can truly live a good life?

    26. RW

      Yes. Well, and I just wanna, I just wanna emphasize what you said, because when we asked our original

  5. 17:45 – 20:18

    Turn to activities that are enlivening

    1. RW

      participants in our study, hundreds of them, we said, "When y- you know, you're 80 years old now. When you look back on your life, what do you regret the most?" More than anything, many of them said, "I wish I hadn't spent so much time worrying about what other people thought." And that's just what you're naming. So then the question is, well, what could we do to change that? And I think what I've learned more and more in my own life is simply to check in more with myself about what are the things that raise my energy, uh, when I engage in them, and what are the things that lower my energy? So maybe, like, doing actuarial work might-

    2. JS

      [laughs]

    3. RW

      ... might lower your energy. It might be-

    4. JS

      Can you imagine? Can you imagine?

    5. RW

      ... you might say, "Oh, I don't like this," right?

    6. JS

      Yeah. Oh my God.

    7. RW

      So, and, and some people actually embark on courses of study and then realize, "How did I get here?"

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. RW

      "I don't like this."

    10. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RW

      And so I think one of the things we can do every day is simply to pay attention to that, that internal sense of being enlivened or being depleted-

    12. JS

      Mm

    13. RW

      ... by activities that we're doing during our day. And really pay attention to that, and when you can, turn toward the activities that are enlivening.

    14. JS

      Yeah. I often say to people it's like reflecting after you go to a restaurant. So what do you do when you leave a restaurant? You talk about the food. You talk about the ambiance. You talk about the service. And you're like, "Oh, I really liked that dish, but I didn't love that one. And oh, the waiter was so wonderful. He was so helpful. And oh, I really like the, the design and the aesthetic of that space," right?

    15. RW

      Yeah.

    16. JS

      So you talk about it. Uh, when you order in, you do the same thing. When you go to watch a movie or a TV show-

    17. RW

      Yeah

    18. JS

      ... we do the same thing. We go, "Oh, yeah, that actor's performance was amazing," or, "That actress was incredible," or, or, "That scene, uh, you know, that was brilliant." Like, we analyze things, but I find that we don't analyze our lives in the same way. Like, when you go to a sports game, you could spend the whole day talking about it, or if something happens to another couple in the media, or if something happens to a famous person in the media, we will analyze it for days and weeks and months. But when it comes to our own lives, we rarely pay that attention. As a psychiatrist, I mean, why is that? Why is it that we can obsess over these external big-

    19. RW

      Mm

    20. JS

      ... or minute, like-

    21. RW

      Mm.

    22. JS

      We, we either obsess over these tiny experiences of food and movies and entertainment,

  6. 20:18 – 26:23

    We’re not trained to look inward

    1. JS

      or we'll talk about other people's problems for hours and hours and hours.

    2. RW

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      But when it comes to our own, we really struggle to say, "You know that argument we had last week? Like, let's just reflect on that for a second."

    4. RW

      Right. Right. Maybe, maybe it takes us back to the actuary problem-

    5. JS

      [laughs]

    6. RW

      ... which is [laughs] which is that we are, we are so trained from the time we're small to respond to rewards, to respond when people say, you know, "Good girl, good boy. That was a good thing you did," right? And so, so we are trained to respond when people praise us. We're trained to respond when people correct us. Um, and we're not trained to look inward. You know, you have a deep meditative practice. You have done a considerable amount of training to look inward, to notice what arises in the moment. I've spent a lot of my life on a meditation cushion as well doing that. It's a radical practice, but you don't have to meditate to do this, right? We know.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RW

      You can be walking along the street. You can be looking at a beautiful tree and just start checking in with where you are and what's coming up for you. But we have to learn to do it.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. RW

      And that's the thing that I think we don't learn enough as we're, as we're growing up.

    11. JS

      Yeah. What, what are some of the things that we should reward, or not should, but what are some healthier things to reward in one another to create a healthy relationship? If we're trying to create these positive relationships in our life, what would be the things that we should encourage and reward and respect?

    12. RW

      I think we should reward people taking risks with us.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. RW

      You know, if someone says to me, "I was upset when you said that," my first reaction is to get defensive and say, "Well, no, no, no," you know, to, to excuse myself. But I've learned that sometimes what really helps is to say, "Thank you for being willing to tell me that."

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. RW

      Right? So if someone will take a risk with me, I begin to say, "Oh, that's a gift."

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. RW

      And when they do t- and when they take risks and when I take risks, our relationships deepen.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. RW

      You know, 'cause if, if we trust each other and we realize we can trust each other, that, that you're not gonna come back and criticize me, you're gonna be curious and welcoming when I tell you about something difficult. So I would say let's reward each other for take- going out on a limb-

    21. JS

      Mm

    22. RW

      ... for, for taking risks with us. Um, let's reward each other for trying new things-

    23. JS

      Mm

    24. RW

      ... um, instead of just doing the same old. I mean, most of the time, when someone in our world tries something new, we're, like, shocked. Like, "That's not what I expect from you." And so it takes a minute to reorient and say, "Oh, that person is trying something different. That person is, is taking a risk, is challenging themselves." And so I would say let's, let's applaud that-

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm

    26. RW

      ... when we can. I mean, unless they're doing something bad.

    27. JS

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

    28. RW

      But, but, you know-

    29. JS

      Yeah

    30. RW

      ... yeah, let's applaud the things that where people are trying to grow.

  7. 26:23 – 35:32

    Take note of the things that are evolving

    1. RW

      And he said, "Especially when you're sitting there and you've done this meditation 1,000 times or, or you're washing the dishes, you know, for the 3,000th time," right?

    2. JS

      [laughs]

    3. RW

      When you're doing something ordinary. He said, "Ask yourself the question: What's here now that I have never noticed before?"

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. RW

      And what I find with relationships, particularly the relationships with people we think we know so well-

    6. JS

      Mm-hmm

    7. RW

      ... right? Our partners or the old friend or my boss, is to ask that question, "What's here that I've never noticed before?"

    8. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RW

      And then to share it. "You know, I never realized, um, that you enjoy this," or, "You know, I love those sneakers, and I, I, you must have taken some care to pick them." [laughs] You know, anything. But just-

    10. JS

      They're a birthday gift recently, actually. [laughs]

    11. RW

      Just, yeah. Yeah, they're very cool.

    12. JS

      Yeah.

    13. RW

      But just to notice.

    14. JS

      Yeah.

    15. RW

      Right? And, and so what I think what I'm, what I'm getting to is curiosity.

    16. JS

      Mm.

    17. RW

      To let ourselves be genuinely curious about people, including the people we think we know so well.

    18. JS

      Mm.

    19. RW

      Um, they've actually done a study of this where they, they looked at how tuned in we are to each other when we first start dating someone and then after we've been together as a couple-

    20. JS

      Wow

    21. RW

      ... for four or five years. And what they find is that when we first start dating, we are much more tuned in to each other than we are when we've been together for five-

    22. JS

      So true

    23. RW

      ... years because we think we know, right? Where, whereas when we're dating we're like, "Oh, what's this gonna be like?" And, "Is this person into me?" And you know. And so we ... Or when we make a new friend. And, and so I think really the question is could we muster that interest and that curiosity even when we've been together a while and we know this person.

    24. JS

      That is such a great example. That's-

    25. RW

      Yeah

    26. JS

      ... that's a brilliant study. I'd, I'd love to take more of a look at that because I think that's such a great example of exactly how that diminishing curiosity creates diminishing results in a relationship. And I, I call that concept, uh, in, in my reflection of it, new old and old new.

    27. RW

      Hmm.

    28. JS

      So when I meet someone new, I try to find out something old about them, uh, that because we might have that in common. Maybe it's a city we lived in. Maybe it's a, a country that we both love. Maybe it's a cuisine. Like, it's something that's inbuilt to us. And then when I have known someone for a long time and I consider them an old friend, let me look for something new in them, as you're saying. And so I call it new old, old new.

    29. RW

      Yeah.

    30. JS

      And it's always been my way of thinking about it because I ... You're so right. There is always something new you can learn about anyone-

  8. 35:32 – 40:14

    When you’re living with people that causes you stress

    1. JS

      insecurity? Like, how does someone nav- what does some-

    2. RW

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... what should someone be thinking about? What, what could someone ask?

    4. RW

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      How, how do they reflect on that?

    6. RW

      Perhaps first to reflect on the positive. Someone once told me, "You know, no one will ever care about you as much as your family will care about your well-being." And, and I know there are exceptions to that, but basically, these are the people who are your people. And so if, if there are ways to preserve those ties, it is worth it. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes people need to walk away from their families of origin.

    7. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RW

      I totally get that. But, but to at least be sure that what's there to be, um, invested in, uh, has been appreciated, right? But then often what, what gets families into trouble is just what we're talking about, which is the problem of allowing each other to grow and change.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. RW

      I mean, I have a son who's in his 30s and who gets angry at me when I ask him, "Well, you know, do, do you need a warmer coat when you go out today?" We're, we're... [laughs] And he says, "Dad, I'm in my 30s. Why do I..." You know, and I, and I stop and I say, "Oh, you know, if you hadn't been so dependent on me when you were two years old-

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. RW

      ... you wouldn't, if you hadn't trained me to worry about these things, we'd be fine."

    13. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    14. RW

      He's, he's saying to me, "Dad, I-" ... recognize that I'm grown up, right?

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. RW

      And often the difficulties we have in families are the difficulties of people not allowing each other to grow and change into who they are at this moment.

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm.

    18. RW

      I mean, what if your family had said, "You have to be an actuary, and if not, you are a failure"? So [laughs]

    19. JS

      [laughs]

    20. RW

      So I think, so I think what you're saying is, is right, that, that, yes, many families are filled with this kind of strife, and often it comes from this difficulty recognizing that we are all changing, and then allowing each other to, to change and grow.

    21. JS

      I find that a lot of generations today are obviously more open to therapy, more open to these types of reflection. I find that when I speak to some people that I know, that they may find that certain older generations are like, "Well, what's the need for therapy? Or what's the need for that?" Like, you know, "Everything's okay." Like, "We, we can figure this out. It's a family matter." Again, there's truth on both sides in different ways, right? But I guess, I think one of the biggest challenges is that a lot of people, it's like when you're young, you always feel the adults don't get it, and when you're an adult, you feel like the kids don't get it, right?

    22. RW

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      Like, that's like a... And everyone-

    24. RW

      Yeah

    25. JS

      ... and the funny thing is we all experience it.

    26. RW

      Yes.

    27. JS

      It's like there's that famous quote, I don't know who said it, but it's, um, "The day you realize your parents were right, your kids will be telling you that you're wrong."

    28. RW

      Yeah. [laughs] Oh, I love that.

    29. JS

      Like, I don't know who said that. Yeah, it's brilliant.

    30. RW

      Yes.

  9. 40:14 – 47:03

    Active re-imagining of life from a different time

    1. RW

      managed. One, one of the things, so we, uh, in our Lifespan Research Foundation, we developed this program that you were actually part of helping us imagine-

    2. JS

      Oh, I love this. [laughs]

    3. RW

      Uh, in Montana. It was, we call it Roadmaps for Life Transitions, where we have five sessions where we, where we bring some of these insights from our research into small group sessions that people can really learn from and use. And the first session, we ask people to bring a photograph of themselves when they were half as old as they are now. And then they go into small groups, and they show each other their photograph, and the, the assignment is to tell each other, "Okay. What did life look like to you when you were the person in this photograph, and how has life changed? How has your view of life changed now?" And it really underscores that difference between, "Well, this is what it was like when I was 16 and leaving Yemen, and this is what it's like for me now." And then she gets to think, "Oh, my 28-year-old son. Oh, it, I may have more of a sense now of what life is like for him." But it, it's a, a kind of active re-imagining of life at a different, from a different vantage point, from a different time.

    4. JS

      I love that example, and I remember that exact conversation we had because I talked about how, like, all my work is dedicated to helping people make life transitions.

    5. RW

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. JS

      Because I think that's where all the pressure, the stress, like when you're just getting married or you're just getting divorced, when you're starting a new job or leaving an old one, when you're moving country or moving home, like that's where... Could you share more about that program and some of the insights-

    7. RW

      Yeah

    8. JS

      ... in the book that, what are other ways that people can reflect on life transitions in a healthy way?

    9. RW

      So we do, um, a session where we ask people to clarify their values, you know, as you ask people to think about all the time. And we ask, "Well, what are the two or three values that you couldn't imagine living your life without?" And then we say, "Map out a typical week in your life and, and write down where you can express these values." And some people are really shocked that they're not able to bring their values into much of their daily life.

    10. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RW

      We do another session where we ask people to map their relationship universe, and say, "Well, who are you close to? Who would you like to be closer to? Who have you had troubles with but you'd like to mend a relationship?"

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. RW

      We do another one where we say, actually it's the leaving Yemen, it's the, we ask, "What are some of the biggest challenges, this, the biggest transitions you've had to make in your life so far? And what were the strengths that you were able to bring-"

    14. JS

      Mm.

    15. RW

      "... to managing those transitions?"

    16. JS

      That's a great question.

    17. RW

      And then we ask you, "What do you see coming down the road?" And how can you use those strengths that you already have to anticipate meeting this next challenge that's coming along for you?

    18. JS

      I love that question because I think I do that subconsciously all the time. Whenever I'm going through a new challenge, I automatically reflect on an old one.

    19. RW

      Yeah.

    20. JS

      And think to myself, "How did I get through that when I got through that?" Like, I was telling you about I recently went through surgery. So I was thinking, when was the last time I went through surgery? I was like, okay, when I was six, I dislocated my wrist. I mean, I can barely remember it. All I remember is I was in the park, I was, uh, swinging on the, the monkey bars-

    21. RW

      Yeah

    22. JS

      ... or whatever they're called. I fell on the last one because I was going too fast, and I fell on my wrist and I dislocate it. I was in agony. Parents had to rush me to the hospital. I had a cast on my arm for, like, three to six months. Everyone was writing on it in school. But I got through that when I was six. Like-

    23. RW

      Yeah

    24. JS

      ... and, and I was like, well, maybe I healed faster at six. So I was like, okay. And then when I was 25, 26, I had polyps in my throat, which had to be lasered out. I had to eat through a straw. I couldn't talk for six months. Like, I, I'd practically lost the sound of my voice. The texture of my voice had changed. I'm now back to sounding how I used to before. If not, I'm a little bit deeper, which is great.

    25. RW

      [laughs]

    26. JS

      Uh, but, but that was pretty tough because I was an adult already and-

    27. RW

      Yeah

    28. JS

      ... going through that was challenging. And so I was like, okay, when I was going through this surgery, I was like, okay, I've got this. Like-

    29. RW

      Yeah

    30. JS

      ... I've done hard things before. And, and that gave me more strength as opposed to, like, oh, I'm going through a new surgery. It's brand new. I've never been through anything, you know? So I, I think that's a really, really great activity. And, and I love hearing about these practical exercises, uh-

  10. 47:03 – 53:30

    Chronically stressful relationships break down the body

    1. JS

      challenges? Or I think there was this beautiful quote you had in here from John Steinbeck. You said, "A sad soul can kill you quicker, far quicker than a germ."

    2. RW

      Mm.

    3. JS

      And, and I know that that can be, you know, sometimes it can be your, your own soul. But, um, the idea that there's someone in your life that's like, it's almost like if we were doing this interview and there was, like, a constant tapping.

    4. RW

      Right.

    5. JS

      Like, a constant tapping. We could probably still get by because I'm focused.

    6. RW

      Right.

    7. JS

      But there's an irritation, there's an agitation, there's some sort of distraction that's going on. I think sometimes people feel that in their life. That I'm trying to get on with my life, but there's this, like, recurring thing, this person, this individual. What, uh, talk to me about what that does to our health. Like, how does that, what does that kind of impact us, or when does it impact us?

    8. RW

      Well, what we know is that sources of irritation are stressors, and so it has that long-term chronic effect on our bodies. We, we assume. I mean, I don't know that anyone's studied, um, you know, a tapping noise and what it does to us.

    9. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. RW

      Although, actually, noise pollution is one of those stressors.

    11. JS

      Yeah, cognitive load as well. Yeah, yeah.

    12. RW

      Absolutely. Cognitive load. So what we do know is that being in a chronically stressful relationship does break down the body, and that there have been a couple of studies that have shown, for example, with marriages, that leaving an a- a really acrimonious relationship is better for you than staying. Um, even though there, it's very painful to break up a long-term partnership and all that. So I think that the, the question then becomes how do we discern when a relationship, uh, should be worked on and when it's important to step away.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. RW

      And, and I think it's always a matter of wisdom, of bringing wisdom to this, to say, "How much do I have invested?" You know, if we have children, if we've built a life together, I'm gonna work really hard to make sure I don't throw that away until I find that there's just no Saving it, right?

    15. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RW

      And people do that.

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RW

      But on the other hand, sometimes there are friendships, there are relationships that are just chronically irritating, and they can be stepped away from.

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. RW

      Um, and more, uh, nurturing relationships can be cultivated instead.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RW

      So, so it really is a constant matter of discernment. But, but I will say that I, I don't want to advocate just being done with a relationship because there are difficulties. Bec- there are conflicts in every relationship of any depth, right? There are gonna be disagreements. Many of those disagreements can be worked out, and working them out is a source of growth and can often strengthen the relationship. So it's important to try where you can to work out difficulties, because the potential for benefit is huge.

    23. JS

      And I think that's the challenge, right? I think we don't have the tools to figure out difficult relationships. It's almost like no one ever went to that class.

    24. RW

      Right.

    25. JS

      There wasn't that class at school. Your family has its own methodology of how to... Like, some families, every family has their own way of dealing with conflict, subconsciously or consciously.

    26. RW

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JS

      So some people go, "Just put it under the rug. We forget about it. We be civilized."

    28. RW

      Right.

    29. JS

      Some people say, "Well, we fight it out, and then we never talk again." Some people say, "We pretend to be best friends, but then behind their back we talk bad about them," right?

    30. RW

      Right. Right. Right.

  11. 53:30 – 1:01:00

    Looking at the long view when dealing with relationships

    1. RW

      other people as well, and then, and I always regret it. And so taking that pause-

    2. JS

      [laughs]

    3. RW

      ... do, delete is really important. Um, another tool for, that I've found is so important for me is to take a long view.

    4. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RW

      So what do I want with this person-

    6. JS

      That's a great question

    7. RW

      ... in the long run?

    8. JS

      Great question.

    9. RW

      Right? Six months from now, three years from now, what do I want? Do I, do I not care if they're out of my life, and so it doesn't matter how I handle this now? Or do I care? Do I want to make sure that we're okay because this person brings energy into my life-

    10. JS

      Mm-hmm

    11. RW

      ... because I care about this person?

    12. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RW

      Because it means that I will adjust my response depending on the long game-

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm

    15. RW

      ... if you will-

    16. JS

      Mm-hmm

    17. RW

      ... what I really want out of this relationship. And so, um, and usually what that means for me is what you and I were talking about before we started this interview, which was ideally everybody needs to win, right? That there, the, ideally there's no loser and no winner.

    18. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RW

      And so if I want to make my point and score one, uh, so what?

    20. JS

      Yeah.

    21. RW

      And the other person ends up feeling bad or put down. It leaves us both, uh, disconnected-

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm

    23. RW

      ... and in a bad place.

    24. JS

      Yeah.

    25. RW

      So how then to, to create a scenario where we talk about something that's a problem.

    26. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RW

      Because if I just suppress the problems, I'm gonna grow more resentful, and that's gonna be its own difficulty and separation. And so how do, how do we talk about problems in a way that will allow us both to get to a place of feeling like we've won, we've gained something, and, and ideally we're closer?

    28. JS

      Yeah.

    29. RW

      And so usually for me, that means I- Wri- writing the angry email and then pressing delete-

    30. JS

      [laughs]

  12. 1:01:00 – 1:02:57

    Socio-emotional learning

    1. RW

      where they talk about this is what feelings are. This is w- what it's like when you have an argument with a friend. What are the ways you can deal with your argument with your friend?

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. RW

      Um, you know, how do you manage these different difficult things in your life? And what they find is that when they offer these programs to children- They do better in their academic subjects.

    4. JS

      Wow.

    5. RW

      They don't get into trouble as often in school.

    6. JS

      Wow.

    7. RW

      They don't get involved with alcohol and drugs as much. I mean, all these things that flow from these emotional skills-

    8. JS

      Mm

    9. RW

      ... and social skills that are being taught. And, and many times when they give teachers these programs to teach their children, the teachers will come back and say, "We need this for us, please." [laughs]

    10. JS

      [laughs] Yeah. I, I mean, it makes sense. Like, you think about so much of your work life is interpersonal skills as opposed to just functional things.

    11. RW

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      Right? Like, and I, and I often think, like, if you get along with someone, you can work with them and coach them and get it right. But if you don't get along with someone, it's very hard to put in the time to get it right.

    13. RW

      Absolutely.

    14. JS

      And, and I find that more, and more, and more, like, I think for a long time I, I worked with companies or I worked in companies where people were hired for their proficiency-

    15. RW

      Mm

    16. JS

      ... or their skills, and they weren't hired for their attitude. And you could tell how that affected company culture where if someone had the right attitude, they could learn the skill.

    17. RW

      Right.

    18. JS

      But if someone had a poor attitude, no matter how skilled they were, it could be damaging to a work environment.

    19. RW

      Right.

    20. JS

      And, and when I was inside large organizations I could see that very clearly. Uh, you talk about in this book something called social fitness-

    21. RW

      Mm

    22. JS

      ... and, and keeping our relationships in shape. I was thinking, what do we, how do we know, how do we become aware of this, first of all, the social fitness of a relationship or our social fitness, and how do we keep our relationships in shape?

    23. RW

      Well, this, this

  13. 1:02:57 – 1:06:02

    How do we keep our relationships in shape?

    1. RW

      concept sort of came out of our finding that many people felt that they weren't spending time with the people who were most important to them.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. RW

      And in fact, that was one of the big regrets when people look back on their whole lives.

    4. JS

      Mm.

    5. RW

      They said, "I wish I had spent more time with family and friends." Um, and so I started thinking about it personally. And because I can spend a lot of time working, and I can spend a lot of time just on email just to... You know, as we all can, right? There are just so many things we could do all day long. And I began to realize that unless I actively exercise those social muscles, and by that I mean if I actively keep in touch with my closest zen buddy-

    6. JS

      [laughs]

    7. RW

      ... who lives across town but I don't get to see enough. Um, if I don't make the decision to call him up and say, "Let's go take a walk. Let's go have a coffee," if I don't do that, the path of least resistance for me is to stay home.

    8. JS

      Mm.

    9. RW

      Is to do another piece of work on a Saturday afternoon.

    10. JS

      Mm.

    11. RW

      And so what we're talking about is this idea of beginning to prioritize, uh, nurturing, keeping up relationships rather than assuming that they'll take care of themselves.

    12. JS

      Yes.

    13. RW

      The idea being that, you know, I used to think, "Well, my best friends are my best friends, and they'll always be that way. And, and my relationship with my partner is gonna be fine 'cause it's good now. It'll always stay fine." We know that's not true.

    14. JS

      Mm.

    15. RW

      That unless we really invest in having new experiences in long relationships, in, in, uh, reaching out and devoting some of our time to keeping those relationships alive, it's not gonna happen on its own.

    16. JS

      Mm.

    17. RW

      So rather, the path of least resistance unfortunately can be social isolation-

    18. JS

      Mm

    19. RW

      ... and s- and more screen time. And so we're talking about social fitness as a way to get people to think about it like, like going to the gym. You don't-

    20. JS

      Yeah

    21. RW

      ... you don't go to the gym one day and say, "Good, I'm, I'm done. I've done that," right? You think, "Okay, I'm gonna do that over and over again." And we would like people to think about their relationships-

    22. JS

      Yeah

    23. RW

      ... the same way.

    24. JS

      Can... Talking about introverts and extroverts in that, a social isolation sense, it's like I think we've also made this very clear as a society that we're social animals, we need to be around people, et cetera. And then we meet people who are surrounded by people or appear to be very popular but still feel alone. And then you meet people who are single and feel incomplete. And then you meet people who are happy in solitude, and they, they enjoy spending time on their own.

    25. RW

      Yeah.

    26. JS

      Like, we're all different. We all need different things. But can introverts, how do introverts find a sense of healthy social fitness? And how do extroverts also find a-

    27. RW

      Mm

    28. JS

      ... sense of healthy social fitness?

    29. RW

      Yeah.

    30. JS

      Because extroverts often appear very socially fit, but if you ask them, they may

  14. 1:06:02 – 1:10:42

    Security of attachment for introverts and extroverts

    1. JS

      feel quite depleted.

    2. RW

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And introverts may, like you said, potentially rely on isolation because they don't want-

    4. RW

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... to step out. So how, how can we think about that differently?

    6. RW

      Boy, that's such a, that's such an important question. I mean, I think what we realize is that, uh, from our work, that everybody, whether you're an introvert who, who wants just a small number of people in your life or an extrovert who loves lots of people, that everybody needs a sense that somebody in the world is there for them.

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. RW

      That there's some emotional safety net.

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. RW

      Um, we asked our original study participants at one point, "Who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared?"

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. RW

      And some people couldn't list anyone, and some people could list quite a few people.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. RW

      Um, what we know is that if you're an introvert, you might just need one person in the world like that, but you need somebody. And if you're an extrovert, you might have more people, but you might only need one person. The extrovert who's lonely in a crowd probably doesn't have that person, and that's what we're really... So I think what... And this is, this comes under the- The professional rubric of, of security of attachment that everyone needs to feel securely attached, securely connected to at least one other person

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. RW

      Kids need it, but we need it all the way through life, so all the way into old age. And so I think if, if someone can find the way to make sure they have and nurture at least one of those relationships, the rest is probably much more easy to take care of.

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Everyone, I've been talking to the one and only Robert Waldinger. The book is called The Good Life: Lessons From the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness. I hope you go and grab the book. As you can see, one thing I love about speaking with Bob is that he's great at interweaving science and spirituality. You know, he has this amazing zen background, but then also as a psychiatrist. I love meeting people who are at the juxtaposition of two seemingly opposite ideas, but actually two things that flow beautifully together. Uh, Bob, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really want to share, or something that's on your heart or mind or in your intuition that you'd love to share with everyone? Uh, I'd love to give you that opportunity.

    18. RW

      Okay. Well, I'll just state something that's obvious, but might not be obvious all the time, which is that in this quest for happiness, for the good life, it's easy to imagine that it's possible to, to be happy all the time.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. RW

      Nobody on the planet is happy all the time. And, and the reason I have to say that is because when we look around us, we see, you know, advertisements and social media where people are smiling and, and having, look like they've got life all figured out. Nobody has life figured out all the time, every day.

    21. JS

      Agreed.

    22. RW

      And I just want to name that so that, you know, that, that life is filled with joys and sorrows and ups and downs, and that, that you are not having a bad life if there's a mixture of joy and sorrow and boring days and, and ordinary days in your life.

    23. JS

      Yeah. I, I love that reminder. I think that's such a beautiful thing for all of us to remember.

    24. RW

      Mm.

    25. JS

      Because you're so right. Our external projection is that someone else has it all together-

    26. RW

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... whoever that may be, and none of us do.

    28. RW

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      So I love that. Thank you so much.

    30. RW

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:10:42

In the uListen app, the transcript lights up word by word as you listen. Get uListen

Transcript of episode EUqBAcSDpL4

Get more out of YouTube videos.

Read along on your phone, search it beside the video, or ask your favorite AI app what was said.

iOSAndroidClaudeChatGPTChrome