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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

SHAWN MENDES Reveals The Truth About His Two-Year Hiatus & Opens Up About His New Album

@shawnmendes opens up to Jay Shetty in this raw and revealing conversation about his journey over the past two years.

Shawn MendesguestJay ShettyhostJay Shettycameo
Sep 30, 20241h 36mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 3:21

    Intro

    1. SM

      Simultaneously, the hardest moments of my life are coupled with the most beautiful moments of my life every time. Yeah. It actually became kind of like a joke during this m- making of this album because when I would walk into the studio and I, you know, people would see on my face immediately if I'm having anxiety or panic, and they would be like, "We're gonna write a good song today."

    2. JS

      We're thrilled to announce that we've reached three million subscribers. We're incredibly grateful for each and every one of you. If you enjoy this episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss out on any of our new releases. We're dedicated to bringing you the content you love. Our team carefully analyzes what resonates most with you to bring on board the best experts and storytellers to help you improve your life. Some of your favorite topics are sleep science, weight loss, physical fitness, navigating breakups, habit building, and understanding toxic relationships. Upcoming episodes include one of the biggest names in health and science, world renowned relationship therapist, and your favorite manifestation expert is back to drop new findings. Hit subscribe to not miss any of these episodes. If you think of someone who would love this episode, send it to them to make their day. The number one health and wellness podcast.

    3. JS

      Jay Shetty.

    4. SP

      Jay Shetty.

    5. JS

      The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] Let's dive straight into it. I actually want you to-

    6. SM

      Share-

    7. JS

      Share with people where we are-

    8. SM

      Yeah, yeah

    9. JS

      ... because this is not my studio.

    10. SM

      [laughs]

    11. JS

      And we're in this beautiful place, and I think you're the best person to-

    12. SM

      Yeah

    13. JS

      ... give us a visual tour if you're, if you're watching and if you're listening, then-

    14. SM

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... audio tour

    16. SM

      If you're listening, we are in the, we're sitting in the middle of a live room in a studio called The Clubhouse in upstate Rhinebeck, New York. If you're watching, you're seeing all the beautiful candles and stuff. This is probably one of my favorite places in the whole world. This is the room that, oh, man, I mean, I've made all of my albums here, all of my music, and I've had some of the most magical moments of my life in this room. Um, and so I'm gonna be probably a little emotional just, like, even sitting in here, just 'cause f- as I sit here and as we talk, it's just memories kind of circling around, um, yeah, of just, like, time. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's a amazing studio.

    17. JS

      Yeah, you can feel it.

    18. SM

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      I, I felt it when I walked in, and I can feel it right now. There's a, there's a different energy in here. So I'm so grateful that you allowed us to come in and share this with the rest of the world-

    20. SM

      Yeah

    21. JS

      ... through this interview. And it's, it's really beautiful actually, being in a space where an artist creates and moves and cries and breathes.

    22. SM

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      And I think it's rare. You don't really get access to that. I think you go see artists in a concert or-

    24. SM

      Yeah

    25. JS

      ... in a public space, but you don't really get this. And I thought where I wanted to start this interview is kind of roll back to your announcement about tour, and you talk about this in your song Who I Am. You say... And I'm gonna be looking at my notes a lot because-

    26. SM

      Yes, yeah

    27. JS

      ... I, I haven't yet learned all your lyrics off by heart, and I know the fans are gonna be really heartbroken.

    28. SM

      [laughs]

    29. JS

      They're like, "Jay, how have you not done this yet?" But if I, if I'm on my

  2. 3:21 – 10:20

    Cancelling Tour

    1. JS

      phone, I'm reading lyrics back to you. So in Who I Am, it says, "It broke my heart when I canceled tour. Had my soul and my heart going back and forth."

    2. SM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And I wanted to read the message you actually put up on Instagram at the time because-

    4. SM

      Let's please do

    5. JS

      ... I remember it going out.

    6. SM

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. JS

      We were talking about it.

    8. SM

      Oh, you were talking the night before.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. SM

      Yeah. You were actually the person I texted at, like, 1:00 AM that night when I was just in complete spin of, of what to do. And, uh, I just remember feeling so much like, I think in those situations it feels really hard to ask people to give you advice or to give you an opinion because it's such a big deal, you know, to do something like that. And I remember assuming you were gonna reply something along the lines of, "You can do it. You know, just, you know, you got it. Like, we can do this, you know? We can figure out a way." And, uh, you were just like, in the most loving way, I can't remember exactly, something along the lines of just like, "Whatever you need. Take care of yourself," you know? And I remember when I read that, my whole body just, like, sunk into the bed and I was like, "Oh, God." Like, yeah, that was really important to me, so thank you for that.

    11. JS

      No.

    12. SM

      But yeah. So sorry, go on.

    13. JS

      No, yeah.

    14. SM

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      No, no, no. I wanna... I, I'm so glad that you remember that. I re- I remember you telling me that, you know, on tour an artist has to do something like, or someone like yourself has to do, like, 150 shows minimum.

    16. SM

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JS

      And I remember asking you, "At what point do you feel like you can't do another show?"

    18. SM

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JS

      And you said, "Around, like, 50."

    20. SM

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      And I was just like, "What?" I was like, "So wait, you have to do 100..." And it was so funny because I went on my world tour last year, I only did 40 shows.

    22. SM

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      And I felt it around 33.

    24. SM

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      And I was like, "Wow, Shawn would have to do-

    26. SM

      It probably has something to do with relative to when the end is. [laughs]

    27. JS

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. No, but 50 is a lot.

    28. SM

      Like any race, you know?

    29. JS

      Yeah. And so anyway, you said there were, there were two times you posted about it, but this one you said, "This breaks my heart to have to say this, but unfortunately I'm going to have to postpone the next three weeks of shows. I've been touring since I was 15, and to be honest, it's always been difficult to be on the road away from friends and family. After a few years off the road, I felt like I was ready to dive back in, but the decision was premature, and unfortunately, the toll of the road and the pressure has caught up to me and I've hit a breaking point. After speaking with my team and health professionals, I need to take some time to heal and take care of myself and my mental health first and foremost. As soon as there are more updates, I promise you I will let you know. Love you, guys."

    30. SM

      Yeah.

  3. 10:20 – 12:42

    Making Tough Choices to Grow

    1. JS

      Yeah. It feels like, I remember when we would talk about it then, there was also this weight around it where it was like you'd had this growth period in your life where, as you said, you've been doing this since you were 15.

    2. SM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And then all of a sudden you were kind of getting the growth opportunity to say, "I get to make my own decisions now."

    4. SM

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      And I remember, like, just learning from you about that dynamic of-

    6. SM

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... young people who become successful and famous and-

    8. SM

      Yeah

    9. JS

      ... very, very early on.

    10. SM

      Yeah.

    11. JS

      It's like you're still a kid.

    12. SM

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, well, am I allowed to make my own decisions?"

    14. SM

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      "Am I allowed to say I don't wanna do something?" Walk me through a bit of that reflective process because I think it's not an age thing. I think we all go through-

    16. SM

      Yeah

    17. JS

      ... we all go through this arc in our life where we go, "Well, I don't-"

    18. SM

      Am I gonna be the one to make the decisions now? Am I gonna take the responsibility? Yeah, and I think, yeah, that's, that's the hardest part is, is it really comes down to the moment you're prepared to take responsibility for your life and for everything that goes wrong and for everything that goes right. And it's, uh, it's hard, you know, 'cause your whole life you either, you have your parents to either rely on, like, you know, you look at them, and they go, "Okay, yeah, well, they said..." It's always kind of like you can deflect that, uh, responsibility onto someone else, whether it's my manager or someone. And, uh, yeah, that was just like this is gonna be a, a big decision I make, and then there's gonna be repercussions here, and I'm gonna have to be responsible for it. And yeah, it, uh, that's, it's kind of, it's kinda just like that. And the beautiful thing is that once I s- did that, it felt like now, okay, that was the kind of big one, and then every other little decision, it was kinda like, well, here, here I am again making another decision. And- You kind of go like, [laughs] I'm sorry to bring my sister into this, but like, for you, Aaliyah, but like she's like, [laughs] "Oh, I don't wanna..." She's like, "Can't I just not have the responsibility?" And I'm like, "That's not how it works."

    19. JS

      [laughs]

    20. SM

      Like once you start taking responsibility, you just gotta keep taking responsibility, and it's, uh, simultaneously grueling but also so much more rewarding because when it goes well, you know, it's you who put yourself in that position, so-

  4. 12:42 – 15:05

    Breakdowns Lead to Breakthroughs

    1. JS

      Yeah

    2. SM

      ... yeah. I didn't even know at that point what I felt like and what I looked like to myself.

    3. JS

      What was it for you that kind of showed you that North Star when things were dark?

    4. SM

      When love is in front of you and it's trying to give itself to you through someone, that's a hard thing to receive. And I remember so many times I was just, like, driving my car aimlessly, and I would just be like, "You're exactly where you're supposed to be."

    5. JS

      You said something beautiful just now. You said it was the hardest decision and it was the greatest decision.

    6. SM

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      Have you found those two things often go together, or would you say that's not the case?

    8. SM

      Um, I find that simultaneously, the hardest moments of my life are coupled with the most beautiful moments of my life every time. Yeah. It actually became kind of like a, a joke during this making of this album because when I would walk into the studio and I, you know, people would see on my face immediately if I'm having anxiety or panic, and they would be like, "We're gonna write a good song today."

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. SM

      Like, every time it was like there was some sort of healing crisis that had to happen. I had to, like, get through this pain, this fear, this anxiety, these tears, this anger, something, and on the other end of that was just, like, plain truth, and plain truth had... was just the best ingredients for a song, you know?

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. SM

      So yeah, I do.

    13. JS

      How, how does an artist ever find peace then?

    14. SM

      That's a great question.

    15. JS

      [laughs]

    16. SM

      Um, I think, like, I would be following through, and I do follow through even if there's no song to write, you know? I think we're so taught, especially in so many societies and cultures, but, like, I feel like in the West we're so taught to just, there's a time and place for things, and if you're in an interview and tears are about to come, if you're in an interview and anger is about to happen, you can't let that happen. And I really have noticed that, like, if you can just, like, express it in an honest, calm way, most likely a more beautiful thing is gonna come through that than what you desired, you know? I would do that if there was no song that came out of it. That's kind of my, my way of moving through life. It's like I head to the gym and I'm like, "If I walk into the gym today and [laughs] I'm crying in the gym, that's the better outcome," you know?

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. SM

      So... [laughs]

    19. JS

      You, you do live like that.

    20. SM

      I do, yeah.

    21. JS

      You do live like that.

    22. SM

      Yeah. [laughs]

    23. JS

      And, and I haven't

  5. 15:05 – 19:04

    Authenticity in Music

    1. JS

      said it yet, but you know, this, this album, it's, it's so fascinating for me to see it from the moment that we're talking about now to then its creation because I remember when it was you trying to figure out your voice and figure out who you are as an artist-

    2. SM

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... as a person, as a human, and now when I listen to it, it almost sounds so effortless-

    4. SM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... and true-

    6. SM

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... and authentic-

    8. SM

      Yeah

    9. JS

      ... in this really flowing way, kind of like this channeling-

    10. SM

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... experience of even listening to it.

    12. SM

      Uh-huh.

    13. JS

      And I couldn't believe it when I listened to it because I was like, "Wow." Like, "You did it." Like, that, that's how I felt. Like, I was like, "You did it and then some." Like, it was even... It far superseded any of the expectations I would have had in the conversations we had of how you were thinking about it.

    14. SM

      Well, yeah, and it's like, you know, you have the idea of m- if some- if I said to you, you know, six months ago, "I wanna make the most honest album I've ever made," then you start having ideas of what that sounds like and what that looks like.

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. SM

      And then at some point, actually, in the studio, y- at some point when you're done with all the ideas of what you f- you are trying to force it to become-

    17. JS

      Mm

    18. SM

      ... there's a breaking point, and you surrender to it, and the album starts to become what it's meant to be.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. SM

      And you just have to, like, roll with that, you know?

    21. JS

      Yeah. And that's, that's hard, though.

    22. SM

      It's super hard.

    23. JS

      How do you trust that? How do you trust that? Because I feel like we're living in a-

    24. SM

      It's exhausting. [laughs]

    25. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    26. SM

      I think-

    27. JS

      'Cause we're living at this time where I feel like everything's perfectly engineered-

    28. SM

      Yeah

    29. JS

      ... and manufactured-

    30. SM

      Yeah

  6. 19:04 – 26:40

    The Power of Vulnerability

    1. SM

      Yeah.

    2. JS

      There was, uh, one lyric where you say in Why Why Why, you say, "I stepped off the stage with nothing left. All the lies are with my head."

    3. SM

      Yeah.

    4. JS

      Um, effing with my head. Um, what, what were the lies? What, what-

    5. SM

      Oh, lights is the lyric.

    6. JS

      Ooh, sorry, my bad.

    7. SM

      Oh, you're gonna get the fans there.

    8. JS

      Oh, my bad. There we go, I messed up.

    9. SM

      There you go. [laughs]

    10. JS

      There we go, there we go. There we go, I messed up.

    11. SM

      No, it's the lights, yeah.

    12. JS

      I thought it was lies.

    13. SM

      Yeah, no.

    14. JS

      I had lies.

    15. SM

      There's no, I mean, no lies on... I mean, maybe lies internally, but yeah, I think the lights and metaphorically, I think it was just more so it, it had so much to do with perception, just this constant, um, just this constant focus on what I look like and what I feel like to the world, and I needed to... I stopped r- I didn't even know at that point what I felt like and what I looked like to myself, you know? There was a real, like, stripping down process that had to happen, and took me a long time, but up until, up until, like, I would say, like, the creation of this album, I don't remember the last time I felt so, like, just myself. Probably the last time was when I was, like, nine or 10-

    16. JS

      Wow

    17. SM

      ... honestly, yeah.

    18. JS

      What was it about nine or 10 that felt so true?

    19. SM

      Not having the need to, like, cover the lay, cover the layers of, of what I was feeling, you know? I was just, like, an expressing ball, you know? Like, similarly to how I'm a probably... I'm probably, like, more emotional today similarly to how I was when I was nine, you know? And yeah, I guess just that not having the, the, the words and the stories that you've been told, you know, as you start to grow up spinning in my head, and just expressing truth of who I am and-

    20. JS

      Mm.

    21. SM

      I'm lucky too, man. Like, I know that a lot of people, they're not surrounded by people who are maybe super accepting or embracing of that truth, and I know that's hard. And I think, uh, I have a lot of compassion for that, and the reality is that I wasn't around a lot of people who were, and I think part of starting to just, like, strip back those layers is also to just maneuver the people you're around in your life, and starting to be around people who you can be like that with, and it just becomes kind of a feedback loop of positive-

    22. JS

      Mm

    23. SM

      ... honest reinforcement, and then, you know, you look around one day and you're like, "Oh, all these people in this room, like, really love Shawn," you know?

    24. JS

      Walk me through that discomfort, because I think it's easy to jump from, like, a canceled tour to I'm in the studio making new music, and we both know it wasn't like that.

    25. SM

      Yeah, no, not at all.

    26. JS

      Like, walk me through. So one thing in the discomfort you're saying is surrounding yourself with people that allow you to be yourself-

    27. SM

      Yeah

    28. JS

      ... allow you to be, and figure it out. What else were, like, really important kind of principles that guided you through that no man's land, through that desert of time? What was it for you that kind of showed you that North Star when things were dark?

    29. SM

      So many things. Like, you know, I think the process of, like, healing and, and moving through a dense moment in your life is not just sticking to one thing. It's really using everything at your fingertips, and whether that was therapy or whether that was, like, friendship or it was reading or it was music or what it was, you know, uh, it was just a mixture of all of it. And I think the hardest thing for me in my life has been this kind of, um, wanting to always have the perception of, like, strength and altogether and kind of grounded and still, you know? And when I started to, like, allow myself to really... I think it's like it real- you gotta really feel pain to, like, y- let your ego get out of the way. When you s- when you s- when I started to really allow myself to, like, lean on my family and my friends and also, like, just reach out to people and be like, you know, that was just such a huge part of it, you know? I didn't know at the time, but just using, using the people around me to support me was, was a huge, huge part of it, and yeah, not, and being open to not knowing how to get through it, and just letting people maybe help me how they can, you know, and they might have their own way. And, uh, yeah, the people, there's a song on the album called Heavy, and it's just-

    30. JS

      Mm-hmm

  7. 26:40 – 28:33

    The Hardest Internal Question

    1. JS

      question you had to ask yourself during this whole period? Like, what was the question that you asked yourself the most often, that you sought the answer for?

    2. SM

      [sighs] Was just, like, general direction. I remember so many times I was just, like, driving my car aimlessly and I would just be, like, literally I think the verbatim words I said out of my mouth were like, "You're exactly where you're supposed to be." Like, "You're exactly where you're meant to be." Like, "This is, I know it might not look like what you thought it was supposed to look like, it might not feel like what you thought, but, like, something about this is, uh, is it." And there was just a lot of beautiful things that happened in that time. Like, I moved to LA and I didn't really have a lot of people around at that time, and I remember I, I went to this coffee shop every morning and I got this, I got a coffee, and as I was, like, sitting there s- telling myself this, you know, I saw this one guy, his name is Josh, great human, and he's reading this book, I think it's called When Things Fall Apart. He basically re- he was reading that book for two years. [laughs]

    3. JS

      [laughs]

    4. SM

      Sitting, sit- sitting on the coffee shop. And I went up to him and said, "What's this book?" You know? He introduced me to another friend and another friend, and by the time, after, I knew it was like every day there's three or four of us would sit around having coffee, and it was, like, just little group therapy sessions. And it just became the most be- the best thing in the world to me. It was like, 9:00 AM, we're gonna go talk it out. And it was exactly where I was supposed to be at that time, and it was so weird and awkward and uncomfortable, but it, man, it really, yeah, really, that little thing changed my life.

    5. JS

      It was funny 'cause I'd, I'd always, people would always tell me, "I just saw Shawn hanging out in a coffee shop."

    6. SM

      [laughs]

    7. JS

      Like, he's, he's like-

    8. SM

      I'd sit there for hours

    9. JS

      ... he's like, yeah, yeah

    10. SM

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... he's like, he's like giving a sermon

    12. SM

      They started calling me the mayor of the coffee shop. [laughs]

    13. JS

      [laughs] And it started to become, like, this, this thing where everyone would, like, watch it and be like, "What's going

  8. 28:33 – 31:13

    Joining a Men's Circle

    1. JS

      on here?" [laughs]

    2. SM

      Brian called me one day and he said, "Hey, man, you know me, um, he passed away in his sleep last night." Years of, like, not processing it just, like, all hit me, and we sat there and sobbed.

    3. JS

      It's strange because you kind of bury it until you're ready to look at it.

    4. SM

      Yeah. In relationships, it, it's oftentimes just like, oh, this feeling of comfort, this feeling of I don't wanna be alone.

    5. JS

      And I feel like you, you really took shelter in, like, building your men's circle-

    6. SM

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... and your men's group, and having that ability to have, you know, a group of men around you that you could be honest with and-

    8. SM

      Yeah

    9. JS

      ... open with. What, what was, what was unique about that? Like, why was that such an interesting thing to build? 'Cause I know you'd always talk to me about that as well, this-

    10. SM

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... this group that you were nourishing and cu- cultivating.

    12. SM

      Yeah. And like, I had a couple, I had, you know, I have, I had this, this kind of coffee men's group, and I had this other beautiful men's group simultaneously happening, and I think, you know, h- just having, like, m- men from all ages, from all parts of the world who do all different things, like, really just show up and strip it all back and sh- just be brave in front of you. I remember, like, one, someone, something, someone something, I don't know, told me, like, when someone is sharing something hard with you, like, nine times out of 10 you don't have to say anything back, 'cause the h- most healing part about that experience is just to be witnessed in your pain. And I think it's just that. It's like, to be witnessed in your pain and for the person in front of you not to be like, "I don't want this." It's just for them to, you know, when you open your eyes and your, the pain is over, and you look up and they're still there, like, "Hey, man, still here," you know?

    13. JS

      [laughs]

    14. SM

      That's beyond, you know?

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. SM

      In simple ways, like, that's, that's been a huge part of it

    17. JS

      Yeah, and I like that you were playing that role while you were receiving that.

    18. SM

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      I think there's something really interesting about that. I feel like-

    20. SM

      Well, it's empowering. You're simultaneously being vulnerable and then also listening to other people go through their stories, and you're empowered to, to be strong and hold for them, and it's just a beautiful process, you know?

    21. JS

      Yeah, yeah, because I think a lot of us feel like, "When I get there-

    22. SM

      I'll be strong enough, yeah

    23. JS

      ... then I'll be strong enough to hold space for others."

    24. SM

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. JS

      And it's almost like this simultaneous mutual holding-

    26. SM

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... is, is what we all need. And you're actually only gonna be better at holding others if you allow yourself to be held-

    28. SM

      Yeah

    29. JS

      ... and if you practice holding others even when you have nothing to hold them with.

    30. SM

      Exactly, yeah.

  9. 31:13 – 38:20

    Facing Pain Instead of Running From It

    1. JS

      you were talking about heavy, and in the song you, you say, "It's been so heavy, it's been so long, running from everything and nothing at all."

    2. SM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      I was thinking about that a lot. I was like, so often we think things are so heavy and there's so much going on, and then at the same time you're like, but it's not-

    4. SM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... there.

    6. SM

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      Walk me through that dilemma because-

    8. SM

      Yeah, it's just the constant dilemma. It's like in, uh, in reality there is a lot going on, and then also in reality it's okay oftentimes too, you know? It's that internal perspective that you're going through. And I felt like, yeah, just running, when you have the money and the ability to be on the constant move and run, I just ran, and I was just never still. And it was like I couldn't figure out how to get away from the feeling that was, that was feeling so bad. And at some point I was just like, okay, you know? A friend of mine was like, "Hey, man, wherever you go, there you are."

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. SM

      And at that point I was just like, okay, I gotta let it kinda hit me, you know? And yeah, that, that was just a big part of it is just, like I said, the realization that, like, when you kind of move all of the stuff out of the way, it just kinda, kinda, the, the, it just drops into the truth. It's really hard to get to that place when all of the noise gets out of the way. It's very hard to get to that state. But, but sometimes when you do, it allows you to look around and be like, "Okay, actually it's okay," you know?

    11. JS

      Were you running away from fame? Was it, was it the... What was it? What did you feel you were running away from? Did you... Was there a point where you were like, "I don't wanna be famous," like, "I don't wanna have-

    12. SM

      Yeah

    13. JS

      ... the platform?"

    14. SM

      Absolutely, and I think just, like, more of, like, what I felt like the fame was doing to my mind, and I was, I was letting it do to my mind, and it all was based around perception. And just all I wanted to feel was comfortable in my own body, you know, and, like, not crawling in my skin. From, like, every word that would come out of my mouth, to the way I would sit in a chair, everything, you know? And I think it just takes time, because the reality is that if you spend your life around cameras and around social media and around people who are constantly talking about the way you look, the way you sound, the way you act in a way that has more to do with a performance and perception, then that is what you're going to be focused on. And you really, if you're stuck in that spinning, you need to put yourself around people who are, like, doing the opposite of that, who are, like, not worried about how you're acting, not worried about what you're saying, not worried about how you're sitting, um, and just existing, you know? And I had to just reconnect with that, and that's, that's why I named the album Shawn, too. Like, and you know, I just felt like s- yeah, just that, that process of stripping just t- took so long. And a lot of it is just, like... I think a lot of it is, is this idea of who I wanted to be in this world, you know, this, like, i- this image of perfection. And I just, like, even right now, I'm just like, "Oh, man," like, "Thank God for everything," because I'm sitting here and I really am not having tons of intrusive thoughts about, like, is... how... Are you saying the right thing? Are you doing-

    15. JS

      Yeah

    16. SM

      ... the right thing?

    17. JS

      [laughs]

    18. SM

      It just, it is just is, you know? And I'm just grateful for that. It's a nice feeling. I just gotta, like, check on that for a sec, [laughs] you know?

    19. JS

      I'm glad you're feeling that way.

    20. SM

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      That's what I say when I, when I was doing the intro. I mean, I felt that way, because we always talk about these things anyway.

    22. SM

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      It's even strange having all this stuff here.

    24. SM

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      And this is pr- And, and it was funny 'cause I was noticing something that was happening in our conversation. I'd be halfway through a thought and you'd lead on it.

    26. SM

      Oh, yeah.

    27. JS

      You wouldn't even let me ask the question.

    28. SM

      Yeah. [laughs] I'm sorry.

    29. JS

      No, and I was like, "But that's what we would do."

    30. SM

      That's what we'd do.

  10. 38:20 – 49:30

    Shawn Opens up About Grief and Guilt Over a Lost Friend

    1. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm. You have this song, Heart of Gold. This was, this was something that stood out to me. You say, "I'm sorry that I wasn't there to hug your mama at the funeral."

    2. SM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      "I didn't cry, I didn't even feel the pain. Then it me all at once when we talked about it yesterday."

    4. SM

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      Walk me through who that was-

    6. SM

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... and what happened there.

    8. SM

      Um, when I was young, when I was, like, 12, 13, um, I had a friend, his name was Diomi. My friend Brian, you, you know Brian.

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SM

      Him and I and Diomi were just great friends, and we, uh, we spent a lot of time together, and he was an awesome dude. He was a lot like me. He was, like, a very sensitive dude, and just, like, I really, really connected with him. And when I was 15, obviously, I got signed, started making music and, you know, went off and started touring, and then him and, Diomi and I just kind of, uh, started to disconnect. And yeah, I don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was about, you know, I was, like, probably, like, 15, 16, 17, and Brian, you know, would, would call me and say, like, "Hey, uh..." He would say, uh, you know, "Diomi's gotten into drugs and stuff," and just thinking about his mom. His mom's name is Gail, and you know, hoping that she sees the beauty in the story of talking about him, and I hope it's okay. But, you know, when I was, like, 18, around 18, Brian called me one day and he said, "Hey, man, Diomi, um, he passed away in his sleep last night."

    11. JS

      [sighs]

    12. SM

      And, uh, yeah, he overdosed. He... And I remember when I heard it, Brian was on the phone crying, and I was just kind of, like, somewhere on tour and, uh, I just, like, felt numb. Like, I didn't really feel anything, you know, and just, like, hung up, and I just kinda went on with everything, and time just went on. And sitting in the studio about, you know, three months ago, and I keep hearing this kind of title, it's Heart of Gold, and I'm like asking myself, like, "What is this song about? What is this song about?" And, uh, Scott, who I make a lot of music with, he looks over at me and he goes, "Didn't you have a friend, uh, who passed away from an overdose?" And the second he said that, Brian was in the room, Brian goes, "You talking about Diomi?" And, uh, yeah, the second he said Diomi's name, it just, like, hit me, like years of, like, not processing it just, like, all hit me, and we sat there and sobbed. And, um, yeah, the song, man, it was a hard song to write, and it just felt like a letter. It felt like a letter to my friend that I never got to... the things I never got to say to him. And, you know, I imagine that, like, when you die of an overdose, especially as someone as sweet and kind and loving as him, like, you kind of wake up wherever you wake up, and there potentially is this moment of, like, what happened, you know? Not that he needs it, but it just felt like a good opportunity to just be like, "Hey, man, we love you, and you had a heart of gold, and, and we're h- down here thinking about you." And, uh, yeah, it's one of my favorite songs to play, man.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. SM

      It, it just is, uh, it's just this beautiful golden light, and he is just, like, this super swaggy dude-

    15. JS

      [laughs]

    16. SM

      ... and it just, like, and it, it holds his energy, and it's just like every time we play it, I just imagine this huge golden light beaming up from the place we're in, wherever he is, just reaching him, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I love that song.

    17. JS

      You wanna play a little? [laughs]

    18. SM

      [laughs] I could play, I could play it for you on, on, on the song-

    19. JS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    20. SM

      ... on the phone after. [laughs] But yeah, man.

    21. JS

      Yeah, no, I love that song as well.

    22. SM

      It's, yeah.

    23. JS

      I was, I was intrigued 'cause that wasn't something I was aware of and-

    24. SM

      Yeah. It's funny, man, like, how these things are when you're open to the truth and what wants to come out of you and what wants to be, uh, made. Y- yeah, it, it, uh It's unexpected, and it was extremely healing. It's still very healing to just, like, sing that song out to him every, every time I play it now.

    25. JS

      Mm.

    26. SM

      Yeah.

    27. JS

      Have you played it for his family?

    28. SM

      I haven't, actually. Um, I have to go back to Pickering and, and play it for his mom.

    29. JS

      Yeah.

    30. SM

      Yeah.

  11. 49:30 – 53:09

    Healing Through Art and Music

    1. JS

      Uh, I wanted to talk to you a bit about, you know, and, and I hope you don't mind we're doing an album tour-

    2. SM

      It's good, yeah

    3. JS

      ... because-

    4. SM

      Whatever you want

    5. JS

      ... I think it's the b- to me, I always get happy when I can... You know, your music's so healing for me, and I know it's gonna be so healing for people. Actually, actually talk to me about that because you had 15 fans in here-

    6. SM

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... last night.

    8. SM

      Last night.

    9. JS

      And that was the first time you played this album to them.

    10. SM

      Yeah.

    11. JS

      I wasn't here for that, so I wanna hear about-

    12. SM

      Oh, man

    13. JS

      ... what was that like?

    14. SM

      It was really special. It was just, like, so... I've- it was my first time really telling the story of all the songs, you know? And, uh, it was just a sobbing fest. Everyone was sobbing, and everyone was crying. And, um, it's just another reminder that, like, greatness is not one person. It really is just so many things happening and aligning to make something special, you know? It's like the end of the night, like, when I look around, I'm like, "All the candles are lit," and like, all the, all the people in the room, the fans in there, like, the friends who've come, like, our friends who are amazing chefs who've come and made this amazing meal for them, and like, there's flowers around. Like, you know, I didn't do any of this. And my band, like, there are all these humans who are so amazing, who come together to make something special happen. And when you, like, make room for that and give space for that collective effort to be felt, oh, it was just like... And on top of that, just, like, the album itself, we put so much effort into just the stories and the truth of it that I felt like my job was so easy. It- I'd- all I had to do was represent the song. All I had to do was speak the truth of what we wrote about and, and perform it that way and, and move on. Like-

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. SM

      There, there was, the greatest show ever was already wrote before we started, and I just had to step into it, you know? And, and I think that's such a, I think that's such a representation also just of, like, for me, like, as a performer, like, I have had a really hard time, you know, when, A, I am carrying the weight of everything on my shoulders, when I'm the one... when I'm telling myself it, this being fantastic all relies, all comes down to me. If I'm not fantastic, it all doesn't matter, which is not true at all. And the more I take that weight off of me, the more fantastic it becomes. And B, when the art I've chosen to create comes from such a truthful place, the show you play is so much easier.

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. SM

      It just, like, it supports you. It feels like you just have the lift of, of the, the truth, you know? And, and you can't rush that stuff at the end of the day. You cannot rush art and music, and you have to really allow it. And the fans last night, they were like, "Hey," you know, at the end of the show, they were like, "Hey, like, if this is the type of music you come back with, take as much time as you need." [laughs]

    19. JS

      [laughs]

    20. SM

      And so it was so sweet.

    21. JS

      That's beautiful.

    22. SM

      Yeah, it was so special for me.

    23. JS

      Yeah. I feel like when I'm listening to this album, it feels like I'm, I'm listening to a friend talk to me about what they've been going through.

    24. SM

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      They were catching up on a call.

    26. SM

      Good.

    27. JS

      And I'm listening to a friend just hearing about what's going on in their life and how they're thinking about it.

    28. SM

      Good. That's-

    29. JS

      Right?

    30. SM

      That's perfect then.

  12. 53:09 – 57:01

    Questioning ‘Forever’ Love

    1. JS

      talk about, you know, love and relationships, which is, and romantic relationship, which is such a big part of your own journey, and we've talked about this and-

    2. SM

      So much, yeah

    3. JS

      ... it's such a, it's such a sensitive part of our hearts-

    4. SM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... like, such a, like... It's almost like society's also made it-

    6. SM

      More sen- yeah

    7. JS

      ... more sensitive-

    8. SM

      Uh-huh, yeah

    9. JS

      ... like, on such a pedestal-

    10. SM

      Yeah, yeah

    11. JS

      ... as I often talk about recently.

    12. SM

      It's the truth, yeah.

    13. JS

      I was just saying this to someone the other day who's going through something, and I was saying that they've always overvalued and overweighted romantic love-

    14. SM

      Instead of just general love

    15. JS

      ... instead of the general love.

    16. SM

      Mm.

    17. JS

      And, you know, in your song In Between-

    18. SM

      Mm

    19. JS

      ... you say, "If I'm not all in, then I'm all out."

    20. SM

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JS

      "And it's never gonna happen if it doesn't happen right now."

    22. SM

      Mm.

    23. JS

      "If it doesn't end with a ring, is it just sex? If it isn't black and white, then it's on to the next."

    24. SM

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JS

      I mean, can't think of how many people can relate to that experience.

    26. SM

      Yeah.

    27. JS

      And how many people, when they hear that, are gonna think, "That's my life. That's me."

    28. SM

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      Walk me through what you're experiencing, what you're going through when you're-

    30. SM

      Yeah

  13. 57:01 – 1:02:10

    Candid Insights Into His Relationship w/ Camila Cabello

    1. JS

      What, what's it been like for you having your romantic life be so public, and then when you, when you break up it's public, and then if there's a potential reconnection it's public?

    2. SM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And then I feel like that is kind of... I mean, for anyone I've ever interviewed, for anyone I've ever known, that, that seems to be one of the hardest things-

    4. SM

      It is

    5. JS

      ... because it's brutal-

    6. SM

      Brutal

    7. JS

      ... for both people, fans, audiences, people in people's private life. Like, walk me through what that's been like and maybe where certain songs felt connected to that experience.

    8. SM

      Yeah. Brutal. It's... I mean, honestly, I think Camila and I have just done the best job at preserving our private little fire of love for each other because no matter how strong mentally you are, when there are millions of people commenting on it, it's so hard not to be affected by it and to be swayed by it and to be in- inspired by it and to desire it because people desire it or to hate it 'cause people hate it, and it's just human. And I feel like her and I have just, like, worked extremely hard to just protect each other and protect that love, you know? And I've learned a lot about that. And it's part of it, it's de- definitely part of it, and there's no getting away from that. But if I'm being completely honest, I, I don't really u- I don't really go on social media anymore, so I, I don't really s- see or care what people say about my love life or, or my relationships because it's just, it's, it's honestly too detrimental to the actual relationship itself that I, I've become pretty strict on, on that part of it, you know? But it is, it's crazy, man. It's, we're not, we're not in a movie. This is not a movie. Celebrities are, you know, sometimes maybe they think they are and sometimes- [laughs]

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. SM

      ... they literally are.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. SM

      But, like, it isn't a movie. This is real life. This is real love, and love is confusing and hard and goes through dips and goes through pauses, goes through breaks, goes through so much. And so, um, yeah, I, I really feel for everyone who goes through that, you know?

    13. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SM

      And I, I just feel like as a celebrity, I just wanna just come at it and be really truthful from the place of this is what love is like for me, you know?

    15. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm. What have, what have you both done, and maybe obviously speaking for yourself, but-

    16. SM

      Yeah

    17. JS

      ... what, what have you done to protect the relationship in, apart from distancing yourself from the noise?

    18. SM

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      What else has been useful in protecting it, whatever a relationship may be in any phase?

    20. SM

      For me and for us, I think immense honesty, just, like, over-communication, you know? Like, "I felt this way when I was doing this interview and I said this thing and it felt weird, and I'm sorry if it came off like that. And, you know, I, I love you and that's my..." You know, it, it just immediately cuts through any type of as- assumption that I could make or she sh- she could make from anything. And, you know, we're both amazing at that. I'll be the first to text her, she'll be the first to text me, and we just, as long as we're good, all the noise is just noise, and-

    21. JS

      Mm

    22. SM

      ... that's been a huge part of it.

    23. JS

      Yeah, so rather than be like, "Oh, I hope they don't see that-"

    24. SM

      Yeah, yeah

    25. JS

      ... or, "I hope they don't see-"

    26. SM

      Yeah.

    27. JS

      It's like, "Oh, I'm just gonna tell them what I was, why, why I was feeling that way."

    28. SM

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. JS

      And then how do you open yourself up to receive that honesty when it isn't comfortable, let's say?

    30. SM

      I think it's also just a part of just understanding the situation we're in as, and not only as, as, uh, celebrities, but artists, you know? Being two people that make music and tell the story of the heart, and that's just a big part of it, and we both are very aware of, of that, you know?

  14. 1:02:10 – 1:07:52

    Why Partnership is More Than Just Love

    1. JS

      Why does it feel sometimes that you can have two people who respect each other so much, connect so much, have so much admiration and, and love for each other, but that it's not right romantically?

    2. SM

      Mm.

    3. JS

      Like, why is that? Because you have this beautiful lyric that-

    4. SM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... in Nobody Knows that says, "When you're so in love and your souls touch-

    6. SM

      But still not in love

    7. JS

      ... but it's still not in love, where does it go?"

    8. SM

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      Like, I feel like that's something a lot of people have been-

    10. SM

      Struggle with.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. SM

      That's a great question. It is a great question I, I don't have the probably greatest answer for. I think that's exactly why I asked, where does it go?

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. SM

      Where does that love go when it's so present? Um, and I think the best answer I can come up with is just that love is a lot, but partnership is more than love, and I think it has a lot to do with how you support each other in your day-to-day life, and really being honest about who you are, and m- making sure that someone that you're with is in support of that and doesn't have to bend themselves entirely to be in support of that. And vice versa, you know? And I think it's tough because you can go your whole life and never feel that feeling of deep love again. And, uh, I think it's just really complex. It's, it's, it's been something I think people have been trying to figure out for a long time. And I just think potentially, I mean, we've talked about love a lot. I think potentially we're still all wrapping our heads around love, and we're still working through such Westernized movie, romanticized, dramatized versions of, of it. And if you go to places that have been less exposed to that type of thinking, then maybe love is a little simpler or a little more, I don't know. Um, and so for me, like, I just like, hopefully there's a little bit of both. Hopefully you can have that spark and that m- magic and that love, and you can also have that compatibility where your two lives are working in flow with each other, you know? And obviously you're gonna have to bend here and there, but I think to a degree, you know.

    15. JS

      Yeah. I don't ask you or, or anyone because I think someone has the perfect answer. I know I don't.

    16. SM

      Yeah.

    17. JS

      I, I ask because I think when people are navigating something, that's when they have the most reflective-

    18. SM

      Yeah

    19. JS

      ... variegated view of it.

    20. SM

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      Because when you're actually going through it-

    22. SM

      Yeah

    23. JS

      ... you actually can at least... People can hear themselves in you-

    24. SM

      Yeah

    25. JS

      ... in, in your voice.

    26. SM

      Fair. Yeah.

    27. JS

      And that's what the song does.

    28. SM

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      It's like y- people are listening to it going, "Gosh, am, am I with the right person at the wrong time, or is it the wrong person at the right time, or is it just-"

    30. SM

      And it's a constant question.

  15. 1:07:52 – 1:12:10

    How to Be Open to Love

    1. JS

      look like.

    2. SM

      And I think it goes back to just, like, I don't know, like, maybe this sounds too idealistic or, or, like, optimistic, but, like, I think it goes back to just finding what you actually, figuring out what it is you actually want in life. Like, for me-

    3. JS

      Mm

    4. SM

      ... it's like, do I want to be in a constant state of, like, I have someone, I have this, like, this fiery thing that always is mine, and it, you know, it's, like, more of that, like, ownership, that, like, uh, desire, which is, which is super enticing and, and gorgeous in its- in itself, or, like, what is it that I actually want? Or do I wanna feel just a general s- more s- more love from more places, and do I wanna feel supported and like I'm growing and like I'm being seen? And if you really ask yourself that question and then you find an answer, which you might not, but if you find an answer, then you can start moving forward with what your answer was.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. SM

      And for me, it was really more of just, like, I really do wanna just, like, have a greater... I, I don't want all my eggs to be in one basket, you know? 'Cause I don't know how life can go. Like, things happen. People die, people get sick, people y- you know, fall out. Like, I, I... And I don't wanna be... I, I, I would love nothing more than to meet my wife as I walk out of this door today.

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. SM

      But, like, at the same time too, like, yeah, I just want to... Until that moment, I'd love to be experiencing love also, you know?

    9. JS

      [laughs] Yeah.

    10. SM

      I don't wanna just wait till then, you know? So.

    11. JS

      Yeah. There's some fans outside-

    12. SM

      Yeah

    13. JS

      ... waiting now.

    14. SM

      Yeah. [laughs]

    15. JS

      Ready to go. Yeah, no, it's... No, I, I... Do you know what? That's what I've always admired about you, and I, I'm hearing it today, I hear it in the album. Like, you've just always focused on asking good questions.

    16. SM

      Yeah.

    17. JS

      And, and that's, like, your life. Like, that's who you are.

    18. SM

      [laughs]

    19. JS

      And, and I think that it's so funny because as humans, we get so fixated on the answers-

    20. SM

      Mm

    21. JS

      ... and we get so fixated on just a few answers. So we ask the same questions.

    22. SM

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      Like, will I ever find my person?

    24. SM

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      Like, is this the right person? Like, we ask the same questions-

    26. SM

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... and we don't ever get any better answers to the same questions.

    28. SM

      Yeah, there's no answer to those questions.

    29. JS

      And I've alwa- There's no answer-

    30. SM

      Yeah

  16. 1:12:10 – 1:14:04

    How to Appreciate the In-Between Moments

    1. JS

      there's a couple more lyrics here that I, that I love because I, they're just so powerful in the love and relationship space that I have to bring them out.

    2. SM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      This, yeah, this one. So, "But what about the in-betweens? You lay your head on me, living for the next time that we touch. Isn't that enough?"

    4. SM

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      Talk me through that.

    6. SM

      Yeah. I think similarly kinda to what we were just saying-

    7. JS

      Yeah

    8. SM

      ... is if you're, if you're always focused on the highs, you might be waiting a while to receive something special, you know? And all these, you have all these beautiful in-between moments. Like, even, like, for me, allowing myself to kind of, like, love the moment before the show and after the show and the morning and all of that really, it does one, it does a lot of things. It actually takes pressure off of the show to have to be such a big deal, and then it also just helps me enjoy the day generally much more, you know?

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. SM

      If I sit there all day being like, "There's one important thing today and that's the show," that's basically one and a, an hour and a half, two hours of my day. What about the rest of it, you know?

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. SM

      I wanna enjoy the in-betweens too-

    13. JS

      Mm

    14. SM

      ... 'cause they are beautiful, you know?

    15. JS

      Yeah, because otherwise our life's just bookends

    16. SM

      They're just ... They ... Our life, we look back, it's just the highs and lows-

    17. JS

      Mm

    18. SM

      ... you know?

    19. JS

      Mm. Mm. Yeah, that ... Oh, wow. Like, yeah, that's ... Yeah, and, and I find, like, it's also then your life becomes a waiting for-

    20. SM

      What the next high is

    21. JS

      ... the high.

    22. SM

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      Yeah, and so you're living in constant anticipation-

    24. SM

      Constant anticipation

    25. JS

      ... or constant anxiety for something to end.

    26. SM

      Yes.

    27. JS

      And that's the only in-between you have.

    28. SM

      Absolutely.

    29. JS

      It's still linked to a beginning and an end.

    30. SM

      Yeah.

  17. 1:14:04 – 1:16:03

    Dreaming About Your Ex

    1. JS

      it? "Visions of her naked in my-"

    2. SM

      Head

    3. JS

      ... head, "but I went off and chose my st- self instead."

    4. SM

      Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's ... There is a voice, maybe, can call it a voice or a feeling, I think, inside of us that says sometimes, like, "This is what you gotta do. You gotta do something hard here," you know? And our very human side will do everything in its power to get you not to do that, and it will just, like, show you images and movies and the best plot you've ever, you know, seen in your life of the thing, and it can really confuse you and just be like, "What have I done?" You know? If you are ... I mean, I think a really common thing, actually, I've noticed is a lot of people who have recently been in a, a breakup would be, would tell me, like, "Oh," like, "I've been having dreams of them every single night for three months," you know?

    5. JS

      Wow. Wow.

    6. SM

      And I thought that was just me. [laughs]

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. SM

      I thought I was just ... I thought I was the only one, and I thought it meant something. And I think that it's really common, you know, just for our ... It's part of the process of, of something. And at the end of the day, like, I think we, all we can do is, is try to make the best decision that we think is best for ourselves and accept that because w- I'm not going to ... At the end of my life, God's not gonna appear and be like, "Hey, all these things you did-"

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. SM

      "... those were the right decisions, and all these ones were the wrong ones."

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. SM

      Like, that's not gonna happen.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. SM

      I'm never gonna get that.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. SM

      I'm never gonna get that.

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. SM

      So I'm just trying to understand that, like, yeah, I think it's, uh, it's just expressing that side of just, like, mental torment when you're going through healing that's just like it wants to keep you somewhere.

    19. JS

      Mm.

  18. 1:16:03 – 1:24:04

    How To Trust Your Inner Voice and Path

    1. SM

      A big question that I ask myself is, like, when I am struggling to move past something, I ask myself, like, "What is it that holding on to this thing or this person or this way, what is that protecting me from?"

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. SM

      Like, what is that way of being protecting me from? So many times it comes back to such a similar thing, you know? And in relationships, it, it's oftentimes just like, oh, this feeling of comfort, this feeling of I don't wanna be alone, you know? And beautiful thing is that if you can kind of move through those feelings, on the other end might be, like, a grander sense of comfort from within yourself-

    4. JS

      Mm

    5. SM

      ... but also a greater diversified comfort from many people-

    6. JS

      Mm

    7. SM

      ... and that creates a more consistent sense of home and comfort, and it's just like ... It's just interesting how it all works.

    8. JS

      What about the torment of, like, people who, people who would say, like, "Well, why can't you and Camila just make it work and just be together and just, like, come on, you love each other so much," or the other side where people would say, "Well, well, if it's not working, just let it be. Just, just throw it away. Just forget about it"?

    9. SM

      Throw it.

    10. JS

      And you're kind of happy to live in the torment of like, "I'm, I'm happy to be in the in-between."

    11. SM

      I think the reality is no one will ever know what it's like to be in our bodies and-

    12. JS

      Mm

    13. SM

      ... to feel what we feel and to know where we know we're going.

    14. JS

      Mm.

    15. SM

      'Cause oftentimes where we know we're going is not something we can express through words to other people. It's just a sense-

    16. JS

      Mm

    17. SM

      ... a sense of where I'm headed, and no one's ever gonna understand that. So I just, that stuff is just noise in the wind for me.

    18. JS

      Mm.

    19. SM

      It, it, it feels like w- we're talking something so surface here about something so immensely deep and complex that it's not even worth my time to go into answer those questions 'cause there's not even a, an answer to those questions, you know? And it's not a sense of, I think, choosing to live in torment. I think it's exactly, like, uh, listening to yourself-

    20. JS

      Mm

    21. SM

      ... and trusting that. And I had a friend who was going through a hard decision, and they asked me, like ... I said, "You just gotta follow your intuition." And they're like, "What does that feel like?"

    22. JS

      [laughs]

    23. SM

      And I'm like, "Well, I can't ex- necessarily ... " I'm like, "A f- I don't know. Like a, like a little thing in your stomach or your heart." I'm like, "I actually don't know," like, "but this is clearly exactly the moment that you are about to learn what it feels like." And, like, if you can't find that sense of intuition, then well, at that point, I don't know what guides us, you know? Also, if you're not sure, you might not be ready to make the decision yet. Like, there is this, there is a pressure to make decisions all the time. Like, I understand you don't wanna waste people's time. I understand you don't wanna do the wrong thing prematurely, but, like, some things just need to play themselves out-

    24. JS

      Mm

    25. SM

      ... and it's just I think that's just a reality too, you know? So-

    26. JS

      Yeah

    27. SM

      ... allow yourself to get to that place, but don't let yourself go over that place, please. [laughs]

    28. JS

      I'm gonna say this to you 'cause I don't think I've said this to you before, but it, but it's an interesting reflection I'm having right now. I actually feel with you, we get a sense of your old soul when I ask you a superficial question.

    29. SM

      [laughs]

    30. JS

      Uh, and, and actually, like ... And I haven't tried to ask any profound questions today-

  19. 1:24:04 – 1:31:30

    Surprising Shawn w/ an Emotional Letter

    1. JS

      your sister and I talked about mine.

    2. SM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And Aaliyah actually sent us a note.

    4. SM

      No way. My sister?

    5. JS

      Yes.

    6. SM

      Oh, no. I'm gonna cry already. [laughs]

    7. JS

      Um, is it okay if I read it to you?

    8. SM

      Sure.

    9. JS

      Yeah. Prash hooked it up, so-

    10. SM

      Prash hooked this up?

    11. JS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    12. SM

      Oh, no.

    13. JS

      Yeah. You ready?

    14. SM

      Sure.

    15. JS

      So she says, "Dear Shawn, I want to start by saying a huge thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for opening up your heart, being brave, and sharing your incredible gifts with all of us. Thank you for being not just a beautiful human, but also the most amazing friend, brother, son, mentor, and artist. I'm truly at a loss for words to describe how proud I am of you, how proud we all are. Your music today feels like the most genuine and authentic art you've ever created. It's filled with vulnerability, fear, diversity, patience, humility, pain, and a sense of home. But above all, it feels unapologetically and beautifully you. Watching you grow over the years has been such a privilege. I feel extremely lucky to be by your side as your little sister and to be a part of this incredible process with you." You've taught me so much about connecting with my own heart and body-

    16. SM

      [laughs]

    17. JS

      ... tapping into embracing my truths-

    18. SM

      [laughs]

    19. JS

      ... and living with more love, perspective, and abundance. I absolutely adore your eagerness to learn-

    20. SM

      [laughs]

    21. JS

      ... and the way you listen so thoughtfully.

    22. SM

      Eagerness is a kind word. [laughs]

    23. JS

      [laughs] And I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching your unique YouTube videos with you.

    24. SM

      [laughs]

    25. JS

      Honestly, you're like a real-life freaking cool superhero to me. Thank you for having the courage to be imperfect and for sharing that with the world. Your compassion and kindness, both towards yourself and others, are real superpowers. We all feel the depth of your connection through your authenticity. It shines in everything you do, and it's especially powerful in Shawn, the album, lol. This connection you create through your music has helped me feel more grounded in my own life, and I know it will resonate with others in just as meaningful a way. It's like nine hearts with love so deeply, Alea.

    26. SM

      Oh, man, that's so beautiful. Thank you. That means a lot. I love you, Alea. [laughs]

    27. JS

      [laughs]

    28. SM

      Oh, man, yeah. She's my best friend. And, like, over the last six months, we've just gotten so close, and my little big sister too. Like, I think when you start letting your little sister be your big sister sometimes, you know, it's such a beautiful experience when you see your pain turn into something beautiful, and then people start to feel that way. And you gotta believe people when they tell you, you know, especially people in my life. Like, she would not say that if she didn't mean it, [laughs] even for you. [laughs]

    29. JS

      [laughs]

    30. SM

      And so yeah, I'm just... I'm kind of in awe of it all and, and grateful for it all because although I was there every day doing it, like, there really was a, a greater thing at play. And yeah, man, it's been, it's been the most healing thing I've ever done. Yeah, I really hope people feel that way, to be honest.

  20. 1:31:30 – 1:36:48

    Shawn Mendes on Final Five

    1. JS

      Purpose with a final five, which are a fast five. You have to answer each question in one word to one sentence maximum.

    2. SM

      Let's give it a shot. Let's try this.

    3. JS

      They're not superficial.

    4. SM

      Okay.

    5. JS

      So don't worry. I'm not like, "What's your favorite food?"

    6. SM

      [laughs] You start getting long-winded questions.

    7. JS

      Yeah, no. Uh, question number one. Shawn, these are your fast five. Question number one: what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

    8. SM

      Wow. Nothing's coming to mind

    9. JS

      Mm. That's good. I like that already

    10. SM

      It all sums up in an energy, I guess, more that's just, like, any time someone says something that just allows there to be more space, you know?

    11. JS

      Mm. Question number two: what is the worst advice you ever had? [laughs]

    12. SM

      [laughs] Um, to suck it up. [laughs]

    13. JS

      Question number three: how would you define your current purpose?

    14. SM

      Mm, I would define my current purpose with just being committed to be the most honest version of myself in every moment, you know? Um, I have a lot of trust in what that will do in this world.

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. SM

      Um, and I think I've learned so much, like, even just to be here, I've learned so much about following my truth into the dark and feeling like I'm letting people down, but how that led me into creating a really beautiful healing album, and hopefully how that will pick people up, and it's kind of all part of it.

    17. JS

      Question four is, what's the message to the fans with this album, Shawn, and-

    18. SM

      Bring your tissues. [laughs]

    19. JS

      [laughs]

    20. SM

      I love you guys, and I am beyond grateful for your patience and your love, and it's a beautiful thing to be growing up at the same time as you. And so I hope a lot of the words and, and the stories resonate with you, and I hope you feel me because I feel like we've been out of connection for a long time. And, um, I just always want to be honest with you guys no matter what. And so I hope you love it. [laughs]

    21. JS

      A little offshoot of that, why was now the right time to come back for you?

    22. SM

      There was a moment six months ago when Andrew and a couple people I love, they kind of like were like, "Hey, can we just play you back some ideas you've sent us that we think are cool?" And I was like, "They're probably not." And they brought me into a room and they played them back and I was like, "These are kind of cool." And it was just very obvious to me that, like, I got to go try, you know? Like, I think oftentimes people wait for inspiration to fall into their lap before they try, and then sometimes you got to go in there and chop wood and carry water for a few days before inspiration strikes. And, you know, three days of like, "Why am I here? I should not be here. I'm not ready to be here," the fourth day inspiration strikes. Six months later, you forgot you ever were chopping wood and carrying water. You were just enjoying yourself and making art, and it just changed, you know? So it's the right time, I guess, just because it is. [laughs]

    23. JS

      Did you really want to leave in those first three days?

    24. SM

      Desperately, yeah. And it, and it's funny how quickly I forgot I wanted to leave and how quickly it just turned into passion and inspir- inspired to make something beautiful again. Like, almost like a night and day difference. Just that's how inspiration works sometimes.

    25. JS

      Yeah. Feel the fear and do it anyway.

    26. SM

      Exactly, yeah.

    27. JS

      You're not gonna wait for it to be free of fear and then take the step.

    28. SM

      Yeah. No, no, no, the fear is, like, the greatest thing because you're scared of something, and that something is probably something worth writing about if you're a writer, you know?

    29. JS

      Fifth and final question, we ask this to anyone who's ever been on the show. The question is, if you had to create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

    30. SM

      The law, [laughs] the law would be to, to say what you really feel, you know? But to say it in a way that doesn't really hurt people. [laughs]

Episode duration: 1:36:48

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