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The Stress Expert: Your Brain is Like a Phone Battery! (9 Ways to Instantly Recharge)

Did you know our minds are like phone batteries that need regular recharging to avoid burnout?

Jay ShettyhostDavid Koguest

Dec 13, 20241h 17mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

80 min read · 15,721 words

0:00 – 2:10
Introduction
1. JSJay Shetty
  61% of people feel expected to just get over stress.
2. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah. It's like just power through the moment.
3. JSJay Shetty
  CEO of Calm. Author of Recharge. David Ko.
4. DKDavid Ko
  Good stress could lead to resilience. You're never really gonna have a stress-free work environment. Not everything has to be 24/7, 365, because at some point you've caused a lot of bad stress. That's a real kind of indicator for you to say, "I need to really kind of take a hard stop and figure out how I recharge." [upbeat music]
5. JSJay Shetty
  The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.
6. SPSpeaker
  Jay Shetty.
7. JSJay Shetty
  The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Today I'm so excited because I talk to a really good friend, someone that I respect so highly and admire so deeply, and I've had the fortune of knowing for the last couple of years. I'm talking about David Ko, the CEO of Calm, the leading app for meditation and mindfulness, and a new author of his book, Recharge, that offers tips for the best mental wellness practices in today's digital world. The book has interviews with rappers, rebels, and innovators as he travels talking about stress, burnout, and feeling drained. If any of you are feeling stressed right now, this episode's for you. If you're feeling drained from work right now, this episode's for you. And if you need to recharge, this book and episode is for you. Please welcome to On Purpose the CEO of Calm, David Ko. David, it's great to have you here.
8. DKDavid Ko
  Thank you, Jay, for having me here today. I'm so excited.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Oh, I'm so excited because I really feel like ever since we met, I felt like we hit it off, um-
10. DKDavid Ko
  Right away. [laughs]
11. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. Yeah, right away. Right away.
12. DKDavid Ko
  Right away. Yeah.
13. JSJay Shetty
  And I've been fortunate enough to have you interview me so many times, so I'm glad I get to repay the favor, uh, this time round. And I wanted to ask you, just, just to, just to get our blood boiling, just to start with some
2:10 – 3:09
What Are You Not Calm About?
1. JSJay Shetty
  fun, I wanted to ask you, uh, David, what's something that you're not calm about?
2. DKDavid Ko
  [laughs] I think there's a lot of things that I'm not calm about, uh, throughout my day. I will tell you right now, I am in the throes of my, my oldest daughter applying to colleges.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
4. DKDavid Ko
  Even though I try to appear very calm in front of her, and cool and collected, you know? And you don't want to be, like, a helicopter type of parent. There are times where I'm just like, "Ugh," you know, I wanna get in there and say something, but I realize almost, like, the best thing for her is for her to go through it, and I have to kinda take a backseat. And so it's, it's kinda going from where you take the wheel to, like, you're in the passenger seat, and then you're in the backseat kinda peering every once in a while. But I can't help myself from, like, I don't know, when she first learned to drive, by, like, saying, "Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm stepping on the brake here and there," right? But, uh, that's one thing right now that is probably a little stressful.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. No, I can
3:09 – 5:41
STOP Asking 'How Are You?' Ask THIS Instead
1. JSJay Shetty
  imagine. I read a study that said we process around 72 gigabytes of information per day-
2. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
3. JSJay Shetty
  ... which the research likened to reading Tolkien's The Hobbit-
4. DKDavid Ko
  [laughs]
5. JSJay Shetty
  ... every single day. That's nearly 96,000 words.
6. DKDavid Ko
  Right. Right.
7. JSJay Shetty
  And you think about that and you go, "No wonder we're overwhelmed. No wonder we're burnt out. No wonder we're stressed." And you have this really brilliant analogy comparing the brain and our mind to a battery.
8. DKDavid Ko
  That's right.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Walk us through this-
10. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
11. JSJay Shetty
  ... because I really like this in your book, Recharge, the way you break it down and explain it.
12. DKDavid Ko
  You know, the recharge, uh, came from a good friend of mine, and we were talking about mental health and I just asked her, I said, you know, "How's it going with your kids?" And she goes, "You know, I was talking to my kids, and I just said, 'How's your battery?'" And I was like, "Wait, what?" And she goes, "Well, I said, 'How's your battery?'" I said, "Why?" And she said, "Well, if I ask them how they're doing, I get the plain 'fine.'" And, 'cause they're kids, they're just like, "I'm fine." But if I ask them, like, "How's your battery?" They're like, "Well, it's at, like, 50%." Or it's, or, so you may need a snack, 'cause they're little. Or it's at 75%, so she's like, "Oh, you're okay." Or sometimes they're at 25% and they just need something, you know, to decompress. While we were talking about it, a light bulb just went out, and that light bulb that went on was about, like, she took something that at times can be charged, and she took something and really simplified in a way that I think we would all understand, regardless of age. And I asked her, I was like, "Can I run with that?" And she was like, "Yeah, sure. Whatever," right?
13. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
14. DKDavid Ko
  And we still laugh about it, Brenda and I, 'cause she's like, "Wow, you actually took it." And I was like, "Yeah, I used it as a theme." I talk about it. I go to clients, I'll go out, and it just kinda resonates with people 'cause it's simple, and it doesn't kind of draw out any emotions. It just says like, "Hey, how's your battery? How are you feeling?" And I think that sometimes that gets lost because we all, all- we try to make it bigger sometimes than it is, and it's really nice when you can kinda just simplify it and just ask, yeah, "How's your battery? How you doing?"
15. JSJay Shetty
  I, I love the question, "How's your battery?" even more than s- "How you doing?" like you said, because I think sometimes we, I think you also mentioned that we can scale everything up to a 10.
16. DKDavid Ko
  That's right.
17. JSJay Shetty
  So everything can feel like it's a 10, it's the worst. Or everything can feel like, oh, it's just plain old fine.
18. DKDavid Ko
  That's right.
19. JSJay Shetty
  And then you don't have much to play with, whereas
5:41 – 8:52
The Zones of Your Battery
1. JSJay Shetty
  when you get a number, walk us through the different breakdowns as you do in the book.
2. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Because I think when you look at zero to 100, we're very good at feeling zero and maybe 100, right? Like, if it's your kid's wedding, chances are you'll be at 100. If it's, like, your kid's birthday, like-
4. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
5. JSJay Shetty
  ... you're at 100. Like, there's these joyful-
6. DKDavid Ko
  100%
7. JSJay Shetty
  ... blissful moments in life that people experience and we go, "Yeah, that was a 100 moment." And then we all know what a zero moment feels like. You lost a loved one who sadly passed away. You ... got, you know, you lost your job. Like, there's these very zero moments. Walk us through how you break down the 0 to 100.
8. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah, and I, I try to do it really simply. You know, I, I have found, and I'll, and I'll talk about my own kids at times. When I ask them that question, how their battery is, I notice that they check, like most p- people, they check their phones quite often. And at some point, it just becomes like a reflex, and they don't even know they're checking it. But when they do look at it and the power's down or it goes yellow or it goes red, they, they get a little panicked. Like, "Oh my God, I gotta charge it." Imagine my surprise when we're in, like, airports and they're, like, going up to people, "Do you, can I use a little of your charge?" [laughs]
9. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs] Yeah.
10. DKDavid Ko
  Right? I think we've all been there, where we don't have a charger-
11. JSJay Shetty
  Yes, yeah
12. DKDavid Ko
  ... and you're just like, "I need something. Can somebody help me out?" Most times people are really kind, and they'll just, you know, kind of help you, especially if you're a kid. I thought about then putting it into zones, and I put it into four zones. And I just said, "You know, if you're at 75 to 100, you're probably fine." And meaning that, you know, you're, you're in a zone where you're just moving along. If you're at 50 to 75, you're probably in a place where you might need to start to think about how you may want to recharge. If you're in that 25 to 50, it's time to start figuring out, take a break. You may need to take a walk. You may need to put down the phone. You may need to stop the litany of Zoom calls that you're on right now, right? And if you find yourself 0 to 25, that's a real kind of indicator for you to say, "Hey, something's probably not right, and I need to really kind of take a hard stop and figure out how I recharge." And recharge can happen in a number of different ways. And so I'm, I've, I've often talked about when I've gotten into that zone, I just kind of almost go for a walk. Uh, I sometimes go outside. I cou- I take some deep breaths. I do a number of things. Sometimes I may need a workout. A workout really helps me to recharge on a personal front. And everyone's a little bit different, and they'll go to different techniques. And so in the book, I list a lot of things in the book that you may do. You may do one, two, three, four, or all of them. And, and they're just really techniques for you to figure out what works for you.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I- and I really like that breakdown because I think we're all better when we're measuring things with numbers.
14. DKDavid Ko
  That's right.
15. JSJay Shetty
  There's a specificity there.
16. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah, yeah.
17. JSJay Shetty
  And I'm one of those people, I think [laughs] I think the way your phone is charged says so much about you-
18. DKDavid Ko
  [laughs]
19. JSJay Shetty
  ... as a person. So my phone is always charged.
20. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
21. JSJay Shetty
  I'm very rarely below 30% or 40% on my phone, and I think I try
8:52 – 10:44
How To Recharge Your Battery
1. JSJay Shetty
  and monitor my personal health in a similar way.
2. DKDavid Ko
  Right.
3. JSJay Shetty
  As soon as I feel myself going below 50%, I know it's time for an early night. I know it's time to cancel weekend plans. I canceled a dinner this evening for that exact reason.
4. DKDavid Ko
  Mm.
5. JSJay Shetty
  I got back from work yesterday. I left... I started work yesterday at, like, 8:30 AM, and I got back from a shoot at 9:30 PM.
6. DKDavid Ko
  Mm.
7. JSJay Shetty
  And I knew I had a dinner tonight, and I just said, "I'm so sorry, I can't make it"-
8. DKDavid Ko
  Good for you
9. JSJay Shetty
  ... because I knew I had a busy day today. I was interviewing you. I was interviewing another guest. And I was like, "I want to be really present for that. It's really critical stuff, and then I need to recharge"-
10. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
11. JSJay Shetty
  ... using your word. I need to recharge this evening. And I'm always shifting things to recharge, and I love that idea because I think we hear the word rest, and then sometimes we, we feel guilty. We shouldn't, but we feel guilty, like, "I don't have time to rest."
12. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
13. JSJay Shetty
  But when you think of it about recharging, you're reframing it and going, "Oh, I do need to recharge because otherwise, how am I gonna give my best tomorrow?"
14. DKDavid Ko
  100%. 100%. And you know, it's funny, you and me are the same on batteries.
15. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
16. DKDavid Ko
  I keep my battery pretty charged as well. I have an electric car, too. I marvel at people who can take that electric car battery down to 5%.
17. JSJay Shetty
  I can't do it.
18. DKDavid Ko
  That stresses me out. I'm stressed out when they tell me these stories. "Oh, I took the battery down to 5%." I'm like, "Seriously? How?" I mean, and they're like, "Oh, it's fine."
19. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. [laughs]
20. DKDavid Ko
  You know? And for some people, it works, right? For me, that doesn't work.
21. JSJay Shetty
  No.
22. DKDavid Ko
  I'm plugging in that battery every night, and I'm gonna make sure I, I charge that battery up. Others will let it go pretty low. Everyone's a little bit different. That works for them.
23. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
24. DKDavid Ko
  Uh, I've asked some of my friends who charge it l- go really low, and they're like, "Well, if I charge it too much, I get stressed."
25. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
26. DKDavid Ko
  I'm like, "Oh, okay. It can work the other way."
27. JSJay Shetty
  Interesting, yeah.
28. DKDavid Ko
  So it's gotta kinda work for you in how you wanna recharge and different techniques that you wanna do.
10:44 – 14:42
What To Do If You're At 1% Battery
1. DKDavid Ko
  You're never really gonna have a stress-free work environment. Anxiety, depression, and then starts to leads to physical ailments 'cause we know there's a linkage. Good stress could lead to resilience. It could lead to growth. It actually could lead to a stronger culture.
2. JSJay Shetty
  I was wondering, if someone's at a zero, when you ask them, "How's your battery?"
3. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
4. JSJay Shetty
  And if someone says, "I'm, I'm at five" And I'm talking about emotionally, mentally, not, not their car or their phone. What would you say to them? How, how would, how would you communicate with them some of these tools when you're at zero?
5. DKDavid Ko
  I've learned to, like, take the space to give them space so we can actually have a proper conversation. If you find someone at a really low percentage, and I may ask that person, like, "How are you doing? How are you feeling?" And they... And most of the time you just want a, "I'm good," because then you just want to keep going.
6. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
7. DKDavid Ko
  And I find that often in the business world as well, not just in the personal world, but in the business world. We don't want a response, or sometimes we don't have the time to be like, if that person who you're asking the question to says, "I'm not doing so hot, and I'm not doing so well" Then what do you do? So I'm very intentional when I ask some of these questions to individuals so that I give i- I'm ready for that response if it's, "I'm not doing well," like a 5%. So I kinda want to frame it there.
8. JSJay Shetty
  I love that, yeah.
9. DKDavid Ko
  I think, I think sometimes we rush-
10. JSJay Shetty
  Brilliant
11. DKDavid Ko
  ... through these conversations. And then when they do tell you they're a 5 or a 10, I think the best things that I have found is you have to be present for them You have to listen. You do such a brilliant job at that, Jay, 'cause even in this type of environment, we know as we have this one-to-one conversation, if I was telling you I was a five or a zero, you'd be all in on this, and you would hear me out, and then you would start to tell me, "Okay, let's, let's talk about what's causing that." And I've had at times where family members have come to me and said, "Hey, I'm not... I'm at a five." And we start to break it down. And I said, "Let me, let me put it another way for you. Think about your phone, and we do checks on our phone, and there's things on your phone that drain your battery more than other applications." And they're like, "Yeah, it's like when you go, and Apple shows you what's draining or taking up all your memory." And what happens when you start to delete some of those things? Or what happens when you start to recognize what's causing it? They're like, "Oh, my battery's much more efficient." And I'm like, "Yeah. So let's ha- what's causing that in your, in your personal life right now?"
12. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
13. DKDavid Ko
  And we try to create, like, you know, analogies of different things. And so it doesn't become a space where all we're doing is talking about all the negativity. We're trying to draw parallels to different things in everyday life, and so that it doesn't become such a charged conversation.
14. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
15. DKDavid Ko
  Right? And that's kind of the recharge concept as well, where we're like, "Let's talk, let's talk about your mental health." Because sometimes some people don't want to talk about their mental health.
16. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
17. DKDavid Ko
  But when we bring up the battery conversation or how to recharge, it's just a different framing. And again, this is something I think you just do brilliantly, uh, to bring everyone in. And I, I try to do the same thing there as well.
18. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, I was gonna ask you that, actually, because I've always felt that with you, you've always been present, different touchpoints, whether we're at dinners, events-
19. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah. [laughs]
20. JSJay Shetty
  Where even when we've traveled and seen each other-
21. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
22. JSJay Shetty
  ... when we're in New York for a dinner-
23. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
24. JSJay Shetty
  ... for a time earlier this year. You're, you're always present, too, and I wonder, how do you do that as a busy CEO? Because I think you're so right that when we answer- ask the question, "How are you doing?" We are subconsciously hoping someone just says, "I'm good." We are all... We almost ask the question and expect the response even before-
25. DKDavid Ko
  That's right
26. JSJay Shetty
  ... we have a response. You're so right. Like, that really resonated with me. And the truth is sometimes life is fast for most of us, right? Our schedules are back to back to back. We are running from dropping your kid to school f- so running from work, running to work, picking up the laundry, doing the laundry, what- whatever, right? There's so much going on.
27. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
14:42 – 18:36
Vulnerability in Leadership
1. JSJay Shetty
  How do you actually create space for these conversations?
2. DKDavid Ko
  And that's part of being a lot more present and intentional. As leaders, and I'd be curious now for you as CEO as well, [laughs] we're expected to have all the answers. We're expected to make many different types of decisions. We're expected to play roles in HR, but also company strategy. And, you know, when you take a step back, you can't make every decision. And then there's always things that don't, that are the unexpected. Take your car analogy. So when you had your car and you were at 30%, you were probably with someone, but in the back of your mind, you're going, "How am I gonna get home? Where am I gonna charge?" And you could do this probably better than most, but, but you still want to be present for that individual that you're with or your friends that you're with in those conversations. And what I find is, like, sometimes we as leaders have to make the space.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
4. DKDavid Ko
  Sometimes we as leaders have to show something that you do absolutely brilliantly, is to show a vulnerable side to them and talk about our own stories. I find that many CEOs today aren't vulnerable. I, for one, was not very good at being vulnerable. When I wrote the book, though, I was just taken back at how many people who I met for the first time were so open and honest and vulnerable with myself. And it, it got me thinking, "Well, if they can do it, why can't I do it?" Right? And if I start to show some of that vulnerability at work, if I start to give a little bit of space and more time for that conversation, would that then make it just more open for others and more safe for others to have the conversation? Because if I, if I'm not having that conversation and saying, "Here's my own journey," then they may feel that it's not okay for them to open up as well.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
6. DKDavid Ko
  Right? I'd just be curious, like, uh, you as CEO-
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
8. DKDavid Ko
  ... right, you're s- I mean, you've got all these different businesses. How do you do that with your own employees?
9. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, I think it's, uh, for me, it comes to the balance. So vulnerability is a great point, and, and I really appreciate that because I do agree that if you create space to share what you're going through with your teams, they then have the permission to do the same. And I think I was mentioning when we did a panel at Calm Coast a, a month ago or so, I was talking about a client of mine that I was coaching who's the CEO of a very large corporation, and we'd gone through a transformation. They were saying to me, "Jay, I'm, you know, I'm feeling good." And I was like, "Great. Well, you should tell your team about your journey."
10. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm.
11. JSJay Shetty
  And they were like, "How can I tell them?"
12. DKDavid Ko
  Right.
13. JSJay Shetty
  And I said, "What do you mean?" And they said, "Well, if I tell them, they're gonna think I'm weak." And I was like, "No, I promise you, they're gonna think you're strong."
14. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm.
15. JSJay Shetty
  And I think we're still redefining and reframing strength in the world today. I think there are some of us who still see bravado and arrogance and chauvinism as being strong.
16. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm.
17. JSJay Shetty
  And I think that's shifting, but it's shifting very slowly.
18. DKDavid Ko
  That's right.
19. JSJay Shetty
  And so it is a cultural expectation as well, societal expectation of strength being this kind of facade. But I think a lot of us are now realizing, well, no, strength is being able to show both sides and open up and be vulnerable. I think the other thing that really comes to mind when I'm thinking about being CEO is I think stress can make people work harder.
20. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm.
21. JSJay Shetty
  But it's the right amount of stress that makes someone work better.
22. DKDavid Ko
  So good. So true.
23. JSJay Shetty
  Right?
24. DKDavid Ko
  That's so true.
25. JSJay Shetty
  There's a spectrum of stress.
26. DKDavid Ko
  So, so, so good.
27. JSJay Shetty
  And so if I just, if I just keep checking in with someone and going, "Have you done it yet?" I, are you done yet?
28. DKDavid Ko
  [laughs]
29. JSJay Shetty
  Why are we not there yet?
30. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
18:36 – 24:22
Good vs. Bad Stress
1. JSJay Shetty
  talk to me about the difference between good stress and bad stress-
2. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah, yeah, yeah
3. JSJay Shetty
  ... and, and how you've been able to harness the right amount when-
4. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
5. JSJay Shetty
  ... you've got it right.
6. DKDavid Ko
  In the book actually, I interviewed Dr. Aditi Nerurkar, and, uh, you met her.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, she's wonderful.
8. DKDavid Ko
  Fantastic, right?
9. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
10. DKDavid Ko
  And we got into this whole conversation of good stress, bad stress. You stress good stress versus bad stress, distress. And you know, we talked about how good stress could lead to resilience. It could lead to growth. It actually could lead to a stronger culture. You're never really gonna have a stress-free work environment.
11. JSJay Shetty
  Agreed.
12. DKDavid Ko
  You know, we're always gonna have stress at work. We're all gonna have deadlines. We're all gonna have things we're gonna wanna hit, but, but not everything has to be, just like you said, 24/7, 365. Because at some point it's gonna stack so much that you as a leader are realizing you're probably not being very efficient. Your employees are probably not working super efficiently, not working well together, and they're probably... You've caused a lot of bad stress, distress in their life that's leading to things like anxiety, depression, and then starts to leads to physical ailments. 'Cause we know there's a linkage between, you know, your mental health and your physical health. And so that becomes a very vicious cycle, especially in the workplace, and that leads to a lot of, uh, unproductivity. What I've found with the two is you really have to find that right balance and understand there will be a... And just talk about it. There's a push. We're all gonna make a push. We did it recently as a company at, uh, at Calm where we... around the elections, and we treated the elections like our Super Bowl moment 'cause we knew and we saw the data that people's stress was rising every day as that day, November 5th, got closer and closer. We saw it in the App Store, we saw it in comments, we saw it on social. So we really came together as a company to do different types of things around that. Take a breath, uh, 30 seconds or 15 seconds of silence. Um, we, we showed animals [laughs] from the San Diego Zoo on Instagram, and we got so many people commenting that day that said, "Hey, thank you for the silence. Thank you for my 15 seconds in this world where so many things are happening." Now, people were dialing in from work 'cause they were stressed at work. Stress doesn't just mean it's at home. It was like people were, like, during the elections coming in from work, and so we wanted to give them a little bit so they had a release so they could be more productive. So there's a lot of things around stuff that I look at for good stress and bad stress and recognize there's always gonna be a push/pull, but that's the part where you can't do it alone. You gotta have a good team. You gotta talk about it. You do this so well, and make sure that becomes part of your fabric, your culture, your DNA. And I think it's shifting-
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm
14. DKDavid Ko
  ... but it's slow.
15. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
16. DKDavid Ko
  I think the conversation around mental health in everyday life, it's the most approachable it's ever been, right? I talk about things with my own kids today around mental health. When I was a child coming... You know, I'd be curious, like, for you, like, immigrant family, we didn't talk about our mental health in my household, right? We talked more about powering through things, and I can talk about that later, but we didn't really talk about it. My kids talk about it. They may overuse it at times, not use it the right way. It's okay. They're having the conversation. Their friends are having the conversation. I think that's great. But when you go to the workplace, it kind of stops, you know? And I go to so many places and I'm like, "Do you talk about your mental health at work?" And they're like, "No." And I'm like, "Well, let's change that dialogue. Let's make it as approachable as it is in everyday life, and how do we start to do that? Let's give you the tools, and we'll start at the top."
17. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, you're so right. You're so right. What you're painting a picture of for me is that I look at the good stress being when we all know what challenge we're up against-
18. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm
19. JSJay Shetty
  ... we know what the goal is, and everyone feels supported. And I think what often-
20. DKDavid Ko
  Yes
21. JSJay Shetty
  ... happens is people don't know what the goal is because you're not helping them do that. They only see the challenge, and they don't feel supported.
22. DKDavid Ko
  That's right.
23. JSJay Shetty
  So now they don't know where they're going, and they feel if they fall flat on their face, they have nothing to catch them.
24. DKDavid Ko
  That's right.
25. JSJay Shetty
  As a leader, the goal is to provide the goal and the support, and then the person can focus on the challenge.
26. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah, and be transparent-
27. JSJay Shetty
  Yes
28. DKDavid Ko
  ... in that journey. You know, I, um, I speak to many CEOs in the Valley and, and over the world and, you know, a lot of times I'll ask them, "How do you prioritize things with your employees? How transparent are you?" And I'll tell you, many of them are not [laughs] that transparent, or they'll be like, "These are the most important things," and then they'll add five more, and then five more.
29. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
30. DKDavid Ko
  Right? And I'll be like, "Oh, okay. What did you take away?" And they're like, "What are you talking about?" I mean, what did you take away? And they're like, "N- nothing." And I'm like, "Well, how do you think that's affecting your employees?"
24:22 – 38:45
Mental Health in the Workplace
1. DKDavid Ko
  You know, leaders struggle with how to be vulnerable. Is it gonna be used against me?
2. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
3. DKDavid Ko
  Is someone gonna write about it and say I'm too weak? Is the board gonna think I'm weak as a leader? That's ultimately also a fail of s- corporate stewardship because they have to also look after your mental health.
4. JSJay Shetty
  At Calm, I, I love this. When I- First got introduced to Calm and started taking calls with the teams, and I took my role of chief purpose officer. I got integrated into the culture. I loved the little things and the focus on the little things at meetings at Calm-
5. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm
6. JSJay Shetty
  ... whether they're on Zoom, in person.
7. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm.
8. JSJay Shetty
  I wanna hear about these smaller things that are happening on a daily basis because I think often companies think they need to put out a thing that says, "We're focusing on company mental health," and they're doing these big things, but Calm internally-
9. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
10. JSJay Shetty
  ... let alone the work they do with other companies and workplaces, but Calm internally had some really nice-
11. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
12. JSJay Shetty
  ... cultural things that I noticed from the outside in as I was being integrated. Walk us through some of those daily things that you think create the rituals and practices that help people.
13. DKDavid Ko
  It was interesting for me my first day at Calm. I walk in, and there are Michael and Alex, who you know well.
14. JSJay Shetty
  Love them.
15. DKDavid Ko
  The founders, right?
16. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, I love them.
17. DKDavid Ko
  And they love you, and they talk about you all the time and how you all first met. And they, uh, introduced me to the company. Warm welcome, so inviting, and they started the meet- the whole all-hands off with a meditation. And I wasn't really used to that [laughs] . You know, and I was, I was kind of sitting there, uh, and I kind of noticed everyone, and normally we listen to someone like yourself. We'll turn you on or we'll turn one of our other kind of narrators on. They do great. And everyone just kind of sat there in the moment, and whether it was sometimes it's, you know, really quick, 30 seconds. Sometimes it's five, six minutes, sometimes three minutes. And they listened, and it was... And I kind of was peeking at times, looking. I'm like, "Is everyone kind of closing their eyes, you know, around here?" You know, looking there. And they were just in the moment. It was a moment for me that showed me how much they cared, and I was like, "Wow, this company cares." This isn't forced. You don't have to be here. You don't have to do this. And they were there, and they were present, and they were in the moment. So that's like some of the s- that was one of the ways I knew this company was gonna be different. And then I watched as the company did things around gratitude, where we end every all-hands with gratitude. We read things that have come into us, and it's a reminder of the impact we're having, and I think that's why sometimes I'm so stressed because I feel this weight of responsibility where every second of every day someone is using the product, and I just feel like if we're not answering them, we're not helping them in the moment. Someone's not getting something that they need.
18. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
19. DKDavid Ko
  And I feel that stress, and I feel the, the respo- it's really responsibility.
20. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
21. DKDavid Ko
  And I talk about that with the employees, and I think it's really important to talk about that.
22. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
23. DKDavid Ko
  So we do the gratitude piece at the end. We have Zoom-free days, you know, where, where, where I talk to employees about, "Hey, if you're in a moment where you find yourself in five Zooms, take a beat. You don't need to do that. And if there's meetings that don't make sense, just like you did tonight, which was great, just say no. It's okay. You know? We'll figure it out." And I do that too, and I try to be a lot more purposeful now because it helps me then be more present in the meetings that I need to be in.
24. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
25. DKDavid Ko
  Right? And rather than saying... It's not the quantity of meetings that I'm in. It's those quality of meeting moments that I'm in.
26. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
27. DKDavid Ko
  And I think people sometimes, like, misinterpret, like, quantity for productivity versus, like, value, and I'm much more like, "Okay, I'm gonna do... I'm gonna focus on quality, and it may mean less, and that doesn't have to sacrifice my impact."
28. JSJay Shetty
  I was gonna ask you, how does it impact productivity? And I do think that we've convinced ourselves that if I'm doing more, if there's more on my schedule, if I'm jumping around, we've created our definition of value to be around busyness, right?
29. DKDavid Ko
  Yes.
30. JSJay Shetty
  And we all feel we're more important, valuable, and it's subconscious again. You just think, "Oh yeah, if I've got a lot to do, then I must be doing something."
38:45 – 53:28
Tools for Managing Burnout
1. JSJay Shetty
  how does it help?
2. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
3. JSJay Shetty
  So if we can talk about how mindfulness and meditation-
4. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah
5. JSJay Shetty
  ... specifically the programs that exist on Calm, how do they make sense for stress and burnout?
6. DKDavid Ko
  Mm-hmm.
7. JSJay Shetty
  And then how do they make sense for productivity and performance?
8. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah. I mean, I think I have both of those. I'll start with the second one first 'cause-
9. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
10. DKDavid Ko
  ... it, it, it comes up a lot.
11. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
12. DKDavid Ko
  And what I often tell people is when... I'll just use Calm as an example. More than half the people that use Calm today come to us for sleep, and they're having moments where they just can't fall asleep. Most of that comes, as we know, because they're sleeping next to devi- their devices. The devices are constantly beeping. They don't shut them off. I talk about, like, it's hard, but, you know, I keep my phone outside my bedroom. Not everyone does that. When I travel, I don't do that. And sometimes it leads to, you know, not a s- a, a, a good sleep. And we know when you have a number of those days that start to compound, it could lead to irritability. It could lead to not being as productive the next day when you go to work 'cause you're just tired, right? You couple that at times with potentially bad eating habits or some people drinking habits or other types of habits that aren't... and that doesn't create... And it creates kind of, like, what I call negative behavior. I had that when I was younger 'cause I didn't understand some of these tools. And I just wish I had some of these tools when I was younger 'cause I didn't h- I didn't do those things that created positive behavior change.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
14. DKDavid Ko
  Um, when I was in banking, for example, I... and when I got stressed, I turned to smoking, and I was just a kid, and I was, like, smoking in the stairwell of Salomon Brothers. I shouldn't have been smoking in the stairwell [laughs] that's number one. I talked about this with our employees, saying, "Hey, I didn't have apps like Calm or tools to help me in the moment." I wish I did. I probably would have turned to other things and understood that's positive behavior that I could turn to, not negative behavior.
15. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
16. DKDavid Ko
  And if I have enough of that, then it starts to kind of change the pendulum because I then ended up on a very slippery slope. You know, you're smoking. You start to drink a little bit more. Then I'm eating more at odd hours, and then I try to go to sleep. And you just know if you're trying to eat Chinese food at 11:30 and you want to go to bed at 12:00 or 12:30, you're not gonna sleep well 'cause there's just a lot of stuff just sitting there, right, keeping you awake. And so for me, it's been this continuous kind of learning, and we talk about some of these things. And, you know, I think in the workforce, it's, it's a little-- it's no different because then people have got to shuttle the kids off to school in the morning, and you've got to make breakfast. You've got to do all these things. So you, you kind of need good sleep at night, and it starts, I think, a lot there. And then during the day, we need breaks. People think, uh, and it's in the book, that you, that our brain has endless capacity. It's just not true. We don't have endless capacity. You know? Our brain, like everything else, needs to recharge, and if you can find ways to recharge, whether it's listening to you every day... Uh, congratulations on over 600 episodes. [laughs]
17. JSJay Shetty
  Oh, thank you.
18. DKDavid Ko
  We were talking about-
19. JSJay Shetty
  On The Daily Stoic-
20. DKDavid Ko
  ... 50-
21. JSJay Shetty
  ... Calm
22. DKDavid Ko
  ... million streams as our chief purpose officer, which I per- am so grateful for because there are times where those seven minutes for me where I listen to you, whether it's in the car driving my kids, uh, to school, takes 10 minutes. Uh, some days it takes 30 with traffic. They're, they're moments that I just cherish. Or when I'm driving back alone. And it's, it just helps me then as I start to recenter myself to be more productive during the day. Or during the day, I take a short break, and I know how to recharge now, whether it's going outside, walking, or others, and it makes me so much more productive. Because what I find is if I work in a manner and I find myself falling below 50%, 25% of my battery and I just keep trying to power through, my work gets... It's not very good.
23. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
24. DKDavid Ko
  It's embarrassingly bad, I would say, at times, and no amount of AI is gonna make it better.
25. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
26. DKDavid Ko
  You know? It's just not.
27. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, yeah.
28. DKDavid Ko
  And so I then have to kind of take a step back And be like, "Okay, you're trending in the wrong direction. Take a beat." And I talk about this at a company and with many other companies that are out there today, and I know so many employees I talk to resonate around this.
29. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
30. DKDavid Ko
  Right? 'Cause they just feel it's an endless hamster wheel.
53:28 – 1:17:26
The Future of Mental Health Conversations
1. JSJay Shetty
  leaders that they're struggling with in their organizations when it comes to stress and team's mental health?
2. DKDavid Ko
  I, I think a lot of leaders today struggle with, as I spoke to you about vulnerability and how you gave the story about vulnerability, that story plays over, over and over again.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Wow.
4. DKDavid Ko
  You know, leaders struggle with how to be vulnerable, and I think it's, I think it's generational on a personal... I think the new leaders that are gonna rise, the ones in their 20s, are gonna have no problem.
5. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
6. DKDavid Ko
  Right? Because when you look at social media today and a lot of the younger generation, they talk about their mental stress, and they talk about their mental health, and they're very open about it. Now, again, they may overuse it or, you know, but at least they're having a conversation around it. I think, you know, with other leaders today when I talk to them, they're just like, "Hey, is it a sign of weakness?" like you brought up. And, "Is it gonna be used against me?"
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
8. DKDavid Ko
  "Is someone gonna write about it and say I'm too weak? Is the board gonna think I'm weak as a leader?" And I think that is the... That's ultimately also a fail of s- corporate stewardship because they have to also look after your mental health.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
10. DKDavid Ko
  You know? And so when I'm... You know, I'm fortunate to be on the board of Calm today, but if I wasn't CEO, I would be asking that CEO, "Hey, how are you doing? How are you holding up? Let's not talk about the numbers today." You know, I find it really effective when I meet with CEOs and they ask for some coaching, we don't talk about any numbers. We don't talk about the metrics. We just talk about life. And we'll eventually go to that later But I think when we start with more of a trusting place where we can understand what's happening around you, then I can be much more thoughtful in the type of advice I give. But this also means I have to create the space and the time to do it, so not everyone has that.
11. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
12. DKDavid Ko
  Right? And that's where I think it's just really important to be really intentional-
13. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
14. DKDavid Ko
  ... right, be really purposeful-
15. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
16. DKDavid Ko
  ... in these conversations.
17. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. I think one of the reasons why we struggle to recharge is because when your phone's running out of battery, there's only one t- well, we're also bad at this.
18. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah. [laughs]
19. JSJay Shetty
  There's only meant to be one type of charger. Now I've seen people charge their phone with their Mac charger.
20. DKDavid Ko
  Right, right, right. [laughs]
21. JSJay Shetty
  You're destroying your phone, right? You'd see it being charged with a iPad charger, like... But the point is, there's one charger.
22. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.
23. JSJay Shetty
  And I think when it comes to life, sleep is a charger, meditation and mindfulness-
24. DKDavid Ko
  100%
25. JSJay Shetty
  ... food is a charger, working out is a charger, and people you love, being around-
26. DKDavid Ko
  That's right
27. JSJay Shetty
  ... good relationships are a charger. And if everyone, while you're listening to this, if you could figure out the most common times you feel at 1%, 5%, 10%, 20%, and figure out what's the charge you need for that?
28. DKDavid Ko
  Well said.
29. JSJay Shetty
  Right?
30. DKDavid Ko
  Yeah.