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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

Wicked's Cynthia Erivo REVEALS How To Find Your Passion & Get 1% BETTER Everyday

Today, I sit down with Wicked's Cynthia Erivo to talk about following your passion and having compassion for yourself.

Cynthia ErivoguestJay Shettyhost
May 1, 20231h 8mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 11:59

    Intro

    1. CE

      What is supposed to be for you will come to you.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. CE

      And if it wasn't meant to come to you, it won't. You are good enough.

    4. SP

      The bestselling author and host.

    5. JS

      The number one health and wellness podcast. [laughs]

    6. SP

      On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

    7. JS

      Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and wellness podcast in the world, thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. I'm so grateful for our incredible community here. The incredible response we've received to the episodes of late has just been unbelievable, whether it's you sharing your greatest lesson on Instagram or some of you making videos about episodes on TikTok or sharing a tweet, it really means the world to me to see how many things you're changing about your mindset and your lifestyle in order to live healthier, more healed, happier lives. And today, I'm speaking to a guest who I've interviewed very briefly before. I was doing a Facebook audio room called Safe Space, and this was during the pandemic, and I got to connect with this guest, and since that day, I have not stopped thinking about or quoting this conversation to people. So when people will say to me, like, "Oh, who's the most interesting person you've interviewed recently," this person's name comes up a million times in conversation. And I'll talk about her creative process and how she gets into character, and I've, I've rarely had that feeling where I think someone's words stay with me for that long. I'm always blown away by my guests, but for things to stay with me repetitively. And then we've kept in touch. We've had, we've had a few messages back and forth, but today finally got to meet her. I'm speaking about the one and only Cynthia Erivo, Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning actress, singer, and producer, as well as an Academy Award, Golden Globe, and SAG nominee. Cynthia burst onto the West End and Broadway stages in The Color Purple, and has since taken the world by storm. Cynthia was recently nominated for a SAG and Emmy Award for her critically acclaimed portrayal of Aretha Franklin in National Geographic's Emmy-winning global anthology series, Genius: Aretha. If you've not seen it, I highly recommend it. Uh, Cynthia will hit the screen in early September with Disney's live-action retelling of Pinocchio, my favorite story growing up, I can't wait, uh, and Cynthia will take on the iconic role of the Blue Fairy. How cool. Uh, Cynthia le- was the lead in the HBO series The Outsider, and Cynthia starred in Harriet, where she brought the legacy of Harriet Tubman to the big screen. I actually don't know anyone who's played this many iconic people in their lifetime. You usually just get one go, and, and Cynthia's just taken them all on [laughs] .

    8. CE

      [laughs]

    9. JS

      Uh, Cynthia lent her voice to the movie's title song, Stand Up, which she co-wrote Stand Up, won Best Original Song at the Hollywood Music in Media Awards, and both Cynthia and Stand Up were nominated for two Academy Awards, as well as two Golden Globe Awards in the categories of Best Actress in a Motion Picture, Drama, and Best Original Song. Stand Up also received a nomination for a Grammy Award in the category of Best Song Written for Visual Media. Please welcome to the show Cynthia Erivo. Cynthia, it is awesome.

    10. CE

      Good to see you finally.

    11. JS

      It's good to see you.

    12. CE

      [laughs]

    13. JS

      I know, and even the first few moments we've had-

    14. CE

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... you know, there's something about hearing a British accent in LA.

    16. CE

      I know. It's like it brings you home, doesn't it?

    17. JS

      Oh, it's just-

    18. CE

      Nice

    19. JS

      ... I feel so, like, embraced.

    20. CE

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. JS

      I just heard your voice come up the hill when you were coming up, and I was like, "Oh, I just-

    22. CE

      Oh, that sounds familiar

    23. JS

      ... I feel like I'm growing up."

    24. CE

      [laughs]

    25. JS

      Like I've just gone back to being a teenager.

    26. CE

      Yeah.

    27. JS

      Do I make you feel that way? Because I-

    28. CE

      Yeah, it, I, it, like, whenever I hear ... 'Cause, you know, for all intents and purposes, this is home, but whenever I hear an accent that's, that sounds like where I'm from, it makes it even more home. It's like, oh, I recog- I really recognize that.

    29. JS

      Yeah.

    30. CE

      I feel like, oh, that's a warm hug.

  2. 11:59 – 14:43

    Nothing feels more at home than to be with the people who share the same culture

    1. JS

      I have this Really beautiful experience where I feel like I have equal parts discipline-

    2. CE

      Right

    3. JS

      ... and equal parts artistry.

    4. CE

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      And I really e- embrace those two sides.

    6. CE

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JS

      I was wondering with you, like, you-

    8. CE

      You're right.

    9. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. CE

      You're very right, actually. You're, you're, you're really right about that, that there is that sort of like tandem of, of discipline and, and artistry. My favorite music teacher, actually my music teacher and a French teacher, for some reason sort of stuck to me, um, Ma- uh, Miss Rycroft and Madame Chesley.

    11. JS

      [laughs]

    12. CE

      They both just wanted me to blossom as a creative. Madame Chesley wouldn't let me get away without speaking some sort of French to her all the time, and now I love the language very much so. And Miss Rycroft made me learn every kind of instruments I could possibly put my hands on, and sing everything I could p- possibly sing. And but it also gave me the discipline of wanting to learn, wanting to, to be as good as I want to be at these particular subjects. And you're right in that there is a wonderful sort of melding of creativity and discipline that has definitely influenced how I live and how I've, uh, lived so far.

    13. JS

      Yeah, I, I was thinking that with you because when you brought up running-

    14. CE

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... you've got to be really disciplined.

    16. CE

      [laughs]

    17. JS

      [laughs] And when I see your stories or posts with you running, I literally, I'm like, "I'm in anxiety." [laughs]

    18. CE

      [laughs]

    19. JS

      Like, I'm like, "I am so glad." I was like, "I'm becoming friends with Cynthia Erivo, but as long as she doesn't invite me on a run, we're good."

    20. CE

      [laughs]

    21. JS

      Like, if she wants to do a hike, I could do that. But it's like you require, it requires so much discipline-

    22. CE

      Mm-hmm

    23. JS

      ... so much energy, and that's, let's talk about running first, and then we'll move into your artistry.

    24. CE

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      But when you look at how much you're running, you just said you ran a h- half marathon.

    26. CE

      Ran a half ma- half marathon-

    27. JS

      Yeah

    28. CE

      ... uh, over the weekend. And then this every day-

    29. JS

      As you do

    30. CE

      ... is about eight miles, except for today, which is supposed to be a break day, so I did 5K. And then on the weekend it's 16 to 18.

  3. 14:43 – 16:54

    What’s something you miss about London and love about LA?

    1. CE

      There are days when, yes, it's good to stop, take a second, and not do the run today. But other days it's, how can I overcome this moment where I'm like truly not wanting to do it? And those days when I'm able to overcome those moments when I'm like, "I do not want to do this," often are the days when the runs are the best.

    2. JS

      [laughs]

    3. CE

      Which is very strange.

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. CE

      Um, but I love it. Um, it has provided space to think. It's provided moments where I've made friends along the, along the way. People are now used to seeing me do certain routes, so I always bump into people and I say hello, and it just, it gives me a lot. The physical aspect is, yes, your body loves it. It's great to work out, but it's more a mental thing than an- than anything else. Distance running really is more mental than physical.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. CE

      Because once your p- physical is done, if you get to 18, past half marathon, it really is sort of like, "Okay, mind, how, how will you get past the rest of this?"

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. CE

      And that's always a really wonderful sort of adventure. [laughs]

    10. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. CE

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      Have, have you felt that that approach to anxiety and psyching yourself out has, have you feel that become applied to life through that-

    13. CE

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... process of running?

    15. CE

      Yes.

    16. JS

      Like, could you give us an example of how that's kind of-

    17. CE

      Because honestly, it's, those days are the step-by-step days. That's, that's what I call them. You just take one step, then take the next step, then take the next, and the next, and the next, and you'll realize at some point you're running. That's, and that's essentially what happens with me with other things. This is a silly, um, example. I had to redo my closet. Everything was taken out of it, and I've had to put it all back together again, and when I first looked at this task, it just looked mammoth. I was like, "There's no way I'm gonna get this back in order again." And I looked at it and would go away and go, "I'm not, this, it's not gonna get done. I can't do it. I can't do it." And then one day I just said, "Just start. Just start. Just start. Nothing else after that."

    18. JS

      Yeah.

    19. CE

      If you just start,

  4. 16:54 – 21:32

    The ups and downs of attending an all-girls catholic school

    1. CE

      something will get done. Even if it, even if it's like one small section, you will have started.

    2. JS

      Yeah.

    3. CE

      And the next day, just start again.

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. CE

      It's the same for if I'm learning a piece or a song that just won't stay. I'll just start. Learn the first line, and just keep going over the first line, and sooner or later, the first line will be in there and you'll wanna go into the next line. You do a piece or a, you're playing a character you just can't understand. Just read the lines. Read the lines. Find out what other people are saying. Find out what the journey is. And then sooner or later, you'll want to get to know this character.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. CE

      Another way to get to know this character is probably to learn the character, and when you learn the character, well, you've learnt the character.

    8. JS

      [laughs]

    9. CE

      Now you know it. All these sort of little mountains or trials, they're just, they aren't always easy, but if you just start, you might be able to get over them.

    10. JS

      Yeah.

    11. CE

      Even when, when we're running hills, I never look at the, and you know, sometimes you're told, "Look straight ahead." I always look at the bit in bef- in front of me.

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. CE

      My eyes are never pointed upward when I'm walking up a hill.

    14. JS

      Mm.

    15. CE

      I'm always like, "If I can just get my foot in front of this next foot, and if I can just keep going bit by bit by bit, sooner or later when I look up, I'll be at the top of the hill." And that's always what's happened, and it's the f- one thing that doesn't, that keeps me from stopping in the middle of a hill. I just keep going one foot in the front of the other. My eyes are pointed downwards because I know that there's only one foot that keep, can, seem, the, the only thing that can happen is I'm gonna put my foot in front of my foot again.

    16. JS

      [laughs]

    17. CE

      And then eventually the hill sort of flattens out, and you're like, "Oh, I got there. I made it."

    18. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    19. CE

      "Okay, I'll keep going. It's good."

    20. JS

      [laughs] Yeah.

    21. CE

      Yeah.

    22. JS

      That's, that's so powerful. I love that perspective, because I think you are right that-

    23. CE

      Yeah

    24. JS

      ... we've kind of been trained in society to like look at the goal-

    25. CE

      Yeah

    26. JS

      ... look at the target-

    27. CE

      Yeah

    28. JS

      ... figure out the end point.

    29. CE

      Yeah.

    30. JS

      And you're so right that if you ever try and run or whatever you do-

  5. 21:32 – 25:36

    Discipline and creativity is a combination that help improve our lives

    1. JS

      that, you know, and, and I don't want to simplify, and I am very careful about this. I never like to simplify someone's success to-

    2. CE

      Yeah

    3. JS

      ... external accomplishments and awards.

    4. CE

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      But did little Cynthia, like, growing up in Stockwell, like, you know, and, and you look at the journey you've been on, and, you know, Emmy, Grammy, Tony, like, just you ... And, and more importantly, you've played iconic people who-

    6. CE

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... who transformed culture, and your work is educating people on these incredible-

    8. CE

      Yeah

    9. JS

      ... personalities-

    10. CE

      Yes

    11. JS

      ... that history can try to forget or doesn't know enough about or doesn't know the depth of the story. Like, what would little Cynthia say to you now, like, looking at all of that? Like, who believed in you back then? Like, was there, did your parents, did your family? Like, who, who knew this was possible? Did anyone?

    12. CE

      My mom believed in me-

    13. JS

      Yeah

    14. CE

      ... um, sort of from the beginning. She, she knew when I was a, a kid that that was sort of what I was gonna do. Apparently, I would, I would hum when I ate, so she, [laughs] she was like, "He's probably going to be a singer or an actor." So that sort of like, I, sh- it was a, came at no surprise to her that this is what I sort of wanted to do. And my sister, you know, has always been a- around for everything that's happened, so she's always believed in it and has come to some of the shows and seen some things. And you know, I have really wonderful friends. Um, one of my friends, Capri Hakeem, who I've known for almost 17 or 18 years at this point, has just always been there and, like, always has gotten it and believed in me. And I have some really incredible friends who I'm getting to watch do amazing things now as well. But they also believe in me, and I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by some wonderful people. Little Cynthia believed in herself, although I'm not entirely sure that she knew how much was coming.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. CE

      Um, she sort of kept her head down and just was like, "Well, I'll do that."

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. CE

      And it was als- al- it was a game of like, "I'll, I'll try this. I'll, okay, I'll do that. And I'll, I'll, I'm game to, like, I'll, I'll do some backing vocals for this person. I'll go and sing at this sort of club and do all those things, and I'll try this y- young actor's course." And there's just like a co- it's a combination of, yes, hard work, but also loving the adventure-

    19. JS

      Mm

    20. CE

      ... and wanting to try new things and wanting to not m- miss out on something-

    21. JS

      Yeah

    22. CE

      ... if I, if I don't enjoy, you know?

    23. JS

      Yeah.

    24. CE

      I think that she would probably pat me on the back and give me the mischievous look that I give most people when I'm like, "That's good"

    25. JS

      [laughs]

    26. CE

      ... and be really, really happy. And then she'd be like, "What else are we gonna do?"

    27. JS

      Yeah.

    28. CE

      "What else can we do?"

    29. JS

      That's awesome.

    30. CE

      Yeah.

  6. 25:36 – 31:54

    If you’re hesitant to try something new, just start and you might be to get over it

    1. JS

      really found that you just fell in love with it and that it became a part of you?

    2. CE

      I'm, I'm gonna say Holly Gibney in The Outsider, although that did, that did pretty well.

    3. JS

      [laughs] Yeah, it did well.

    4. CE

      That did pretty well. Um, I've, I've loved the roles that I've played, and I've picked, I, I pick them really specifically because I w- I, I want to get to know this person. I-

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. CE

      You know, if I've, I always say this, if I, if I haven't met this person before, either on screen or in life, I'd like to meet them. So I, that's why I play them. Um, I wanna get to know who they are and what makes them tick. And Holly was just so different. She just, she was very hard to shake. She was a woman who found it hard to communicate, but really all she wanted was connection, and so had to learn to f- find ways to make herself understood, and when she was misunderstood, would deep- would be deeply hurt by it. Extremely intelligent, a brilliant, brilliant mind, but also deeply loving in the most individual way, and I, I just had never played anyone like her before. I had... And what's wonderful about that particular role is like I get everyone from every different type of walk of life-

    7. JS

      Mm

    8. CE

      ... in any place sort of going, "That show that you did on HBO with Holly Gibney, like, I, I loved it. Sh- she was one of my favorites," or-

    9. JS

      Wow

    10. CE

      ... I remember a person said to me, um, he was connecting with his sister more because of this particular role and realized that, oh, my sister just communicates in a different way than I do, and this was the thing that joined us together. And I thought, that's, that's what it's about, making pieces that allow people to connect with each other.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. CE

      You know?

    13. JS

      Yeah. That's beautiful. I, I love hearing that as well because it's, and it's what I appreciate about our conversation last time.

    14. CE

      Yeah.

    15. JS

      As I was saying earlier, it was like the way you think about characters and the way you get into them, I'm fascinated by that.

    16. CE

      [laughs]

    17. JS

      And I love geeking out, and like I, I love seeing people obsessed with their art.

    18. CE

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      Like I, I, that's what gets me excited in life.

    20. CE

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    21. JS

      It's like when I meet someone who's obsessed about what they do-

    22. CE

      Yeah

    23. JS

      ... because I'm obsessed with what, what I do.

    24. CE

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      And I can never understand how you obsess over the things you do. Can you describe to me again, because you told me about this last time, but I, I wanna hear it again for On Purpose-

    26. CE

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... for this community, because you were talking about how like when you're playing roles, you're looking at how people walk.

    28. CE

      Oh, yeah.

    29. JS

      And you're, and I was like, and how they talk to figure out their pitch, and then like-

    30. CE

      Yeah

  7. 31:54 – 35:45

    Having a loving and supportive people around you can contribute to your future success

    1. CE

      you meet them on screen, you're like, "Oh, I can see this person."

    2. JS

      Yeah.

    3. CE

      "And they're three-dimensional, four-dimensional, and not just someone that I read a script on."

    4. JS

      Where did that ability and skill come from? Because obviously it can be seen as a technique, but when you talk about it, it's not a technique.

    5. CE

      No.

    6. JS

      It's, it's something that, you know, it's- it's not just like, oh, you've read that in a book.

    7. CE

      Yeah.

    8. JS

      And it's, it's how you think-

    9. CE

      Mm-hmm

    10. JS

      ... and how you feel and how you empathize with this person.

    11. CE

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JS

      And even when you were talking about Diana there, someone obviously who've not played, it's like-

    13. CE

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... but you're watching that-

    15. CE

      Yeah

    16. JS

      ... and you're, you're able to observe that. Where did that skill come from? How did it develop? Do you remember? Like, where, when did you start? Did you start doing that when you watched TV when you were a kid, or did you, you know, where, yeah, where did it come from?

    17. CE

      I'm not even sure-

    18. JS

      Yeah

    19. CE

      ... when it started. I think I've always been a people watcher. I think I've always observed how people move, how people are, so that I can better communicate with them myself. I haven't always been perfect, but, like, that seems to be my sort of cheat code to knowing what a person needs from me-

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm

    21. CE

      ... in conversation. I sometimes watch people's lips for, to make sure that I'm really listening.

    22. JS

      [laughs]

    23. CE

      You know what I mean?

    24. JS

      I'm like, they're now getting self-conscious.

    25. CE

      To, like, or watch their eyes, because those are the places that give you what the emotional life of a person is.

    26. JS

      Mm.

    27. CE

      And I think I've always just applied that to my everyday life. And then when I went to drama school, obviously learning about actioning and making sure that there's a reason for something, and what is the f- the reason for the thing you're saying. What we say is 50% of what we mean.

    28. JS

      Mm.

    29. CE

      Often how we say it and w- what we're thinking as we say it, the words n- aren't necessarily the thing that we're thinking. They're just a representation of how we're feeling. And, and until, you know, when we're not afraid, the words are the thing that we're thinking.

    30. JS

      [laughs] Yeah.

  8. 35:45 – 39:05

    Cynthia explains how she picks her roles and how each role resonates with her

    1. JS

      lose someone.

    2. CE

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And, you know, like right now everyone's saying Austin Butler sounds like Elvis-

    4. CE

      Elvis

    5. JS

      ... in every interview, and it's like-

    6. CE

      And the thing is, I feel for him because I know that, that he's not putting that on.

    7. JS

      Yeah, of course not.

    8. CE

      It happens. You, and it's very different for every single person, but for me, it takes a while to, to lose a character. Because if, if you've done your job correctly, they weren't just a character, they were a part of you. You had to infuse this person with some of you. [laughs]

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. CE

      So they, and they have to come from you. They're in your body. They use your voice. They use your face. They use your mannerisms. You create them together. They take up space within you. They take up a little bit of your heart because you have to mean the things you're saying. And when you finish the role, usually after, what- ... couple of months, three months, sometimes six. I'm about to play a character for a year. They are a part of you, and, and what people don't realize is w- your body doesn't realize that it's not real. It thinks that this thing happening-

    11. JS

      Is you

    12. CE

      ... is you.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. CE

      It's real.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. CE

      So you have to, at the end of it, let your body know that it's okay to let this thing go, but it's gonna take a while because you've learnt to teach your body to do it quickly. Get to that person quickly. Re- remove the thing that you know i- is your everyday life, and get to the person that you're playing every day quickly.

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. CE

      That's what you want.

    19. JS

      Yeah.

    20. CE

      The quicker access. So now the access is really quick, and it's up to the point where, well, now you don't really have to think about getting into the role because you're already there.

    21. JS

      Yeah.

    22. CE

      You wake up in the morning, you know, "Oh, I'm gonna put this on, and this is it," and there we go. You look at your mirror, and, "I'm here. There we go. Hi. Nice to meet you." And, and at the end of a project, it takes some time. Some projects are easier, like getting out of the Blue Fairy, very easy. I didn't have to shoot for very long, so it was lovely, and I know it's fantasy, but, and it didn't cost me too much.

    23. JS

      Yeah.

    24. CE

      Getting out of Aretha-

    25. JS

      Mm

    26. CE

      ... getting out of Harriet-

    27. JS

      Mm

    28. CE

      ... getting out of Holly, very different things because I was there for months with these people. Holly was hilarious because she had a p- her walk was very different. Someone sent me a video of me walking about on set, and I was like, "That is not me. That's not me." Posture was different. Walk was different. Way, the way I moved my head was different. The way I spoke to people, and even th- m- my hair and makeup team were sort of like, "You would come into trailer, and it was not you. That's not who we met. We met Holly most of the time." And it would take a while to let them go. The person I just played, her name's Jacqueline, I spent f- three, four months with her, and I still remember everything she went through as though it was me, and it takes time.

    29. JS

      Mm.

    30. CE

      If you mean it-

  9. 39:05 – 43:01

    When you meet a new character, how do you connect with them?

    1. CE

      it-

    2. JS

      Yeah

    3. CE

      ... because that's the person he played. He paid, he played a person that existed-

    4. JS

      Mm

    5. CE

      ... for six to m- nine months or something.

    6. JS

      And prepar- preparing. Yeah

    7. CE

      ... and prepared it before then, and then rehearsed it, and then-

    8. JS

      Sang the songs, like same as you-

    9. CE

      Right

    10. JS

      ... as in same as what you were doing. Yeah.

    11. CE

      So he, he g- put a voice on top of his own.

    12. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CE

      That's not gonna go because the film is over.

    14. JS

      Yeah.

    15. CE

      There's no way it can.

    16. JS

      Yeah. How does that affect your relationships during that time? Like, I, I wonder how does that affect your personal life? Because, uh, because like you're saying, it's not as easy as, like-

    17. CE

      Yeah

    18. JS

      ... on, off, on, off, you know.

    19. CE

      Yeah.

    20. JS

      It's not like there's a switch.

    21. CE

      Yeah.

    22. JS

      How does that affect, like, your friends and-

    23. CE

      It's not always easy, but if you have people around you that are understanding-

    24. JS

      Mm

    25. CE

      ... of the job you're doing, they're just patient with you. I have been savvy enough to get myself a really good therapist-

    26. JS

      Mm

    27. CE

      ... so I can talk about it. Talking about it really helps to let go of it because you can find the separation between yourself and the person you are playing.

    28. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. CE

      The more you talk about it, the less it's you, and the more you let them go, the more you allow your body the permission to let go of something, which is a life lesson, not just an-

    30. JS

      Mm-hmm

  10. 43:01 – 46:04

    Being observant of other people’s habits and mannerisms helps in initiating conversations

    1. CE

      but here's what I'm h- hearing as you say this to me."

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. CE

      That has been a wonderful game changer.

    4. JS

      [laughs]

    5. CE

      When the words that you're saying are not actually the thing that you are saying.

    6. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    7. CE

      That's not what you're feeling.

    8. JS

      Yes.

    9. CE

      The thing you're saying is not the thing.

    10. JS

      Yes, yes, and, and that-

    11. CE

      Yeah

    12. JS

      ... and that's what we all struggle with is that-

    13. CE

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... we are, this misalignment between-

    15. CE

      Yes

    16. JS

      ... what we're thinking and saying-

    17. CE

      Yes

    18. JS

      ... and feeling-

    19. CE

      Yeah

    20. JS

      ... is, is so much more widespread than we think.

    21. CE

      Yeah.

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. CE

      Yeah.

    24. JS

      What, what's a belief that you think that you held once about yourself that led you down a scary path or a wrong path? Is there a belief or a value or a idea you held about yourself that you think didn't take you in a great direction?

    25. CE

      I don't know that there is anything like that. I think just little things that come up. Sometimes you question whether you're good enough for something. We all suffer from that in a little way, and some, you know, more than others, varying degrees. And when you're younger, it feels huge, and then as I've gotten older, it creeps it in occasionally, and then I sort of, I allow myself to know that what is supposed to be for you will come to you.

    26. JS

      Mm.

    27. CE

      And if it wasn't meant to come to you, it won't. You are good enough, full stop. If you're doing the work to be a good person, to prepare for the work that you want, if I spend the ti- you know, running every day, know i- it is a holistic thing that I give myself. My therapist said to me, "When you do something or you eat something or you buy something or drink something, ask yourself, are you loving yourself-

    28. JS

      Mm

    29. CE

      ... when you do that? And if the answer is yes, well then you've done a good job. And if the answer is maybe not, choose something different." If your life is a series of things that you know are goodness and you, and they are a series of things that are what is known as loving yourself-

    30. JS

      Mm-hmm

  11. 46:04 – 51:46

    How do you detach yourself from the character you play without losing your real identity?

    1. JS

      or dreamt of doing, and then this opportunity comes your way, and you're scared before you, you prepare.

    2. CE

      You're scared before you even get there.

    3. JS

      Yeah.

    4. CE

      And you haven't, and y- you haven't experienced it yet, so you have no idea what you're-

    5. JS

      No idea

    6. CE

      ... stepping into yet. You just know it's a good thing in front of you, and like, "What if I'm not good enough for it? Am I supposed to be here?" Yes, you are supposed to be here. Not just because you're the person that's supposed to do it, but you're the person that's supposed to experience it, because your experience is valuable. If you share your experience, maybe you're the person that changes someone else's mind about this particular experience, because someone else might be petrified of leaning into it. But because you're the person that is experiencing it, you're the right person to send the message to the next person. You see what I mean?

    7. JS

      Absolutely, yeah.

    8. CE

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      That is so crystal clear. I love that.

    10. CE

      Yeah.

    11. JS

      Yeah, no, it's, that's exactly what I'm saying, that the, what's, what's really clicking for me as you're speaking is that idea that it's come to me, it's for me to experience, it's for me to go through, and that what we do is we're scared before. You get through it, and you probably did better than you thought you would.

    12. CE

      Right.

    13. JS

      And then afterwards you critique yourself-

    14. CE

      [laughs]

    15. JS

      ... of how you didn't do a great job.

    16. CE

      Right.

    17. JS

      And then when the next thing comes along, you do the same thing all over again.

    18. CE

      Right.

    19. JS

      And what you're saying is just so fascinating, that yeah, it's for you to experience. I think that's beautiful. Like, that's even better than just this is for you to do.

    20. CE

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      Or for you to have.

    22. CE

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      It's like, no, there's an experience here-

    24. CE

      Yes

    25. JS

      ... that's been perfectly crafted.

    26. CE

      Just for you.

    27. JS

      Just for you.

    28. CE

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      Yeah. And, and we don't always live in that miracle or like-

    30. CE

      No

  12. 51:46 – 54:03

    What was your reason for going to therapy?

    1. JS

      that you think has, has been the catalyst for all of these mindset shifts and this, this greatness that has come your way? Like, does that come from having had a religious upbringing that you've spiritualized? Does it c- you know, because I'm always fascinated-

    2. CE

      Mm-hmm

    3. JS

      ... by like when, when you speak and when you put these ideas together, I'm like, there's so much beauty, there's so much, uh, eloquence, and then there's elegance to it too. And then I'm like, "Well, where, how, how?" You know, like I'm like-

    4. CE

      [laughs]

    5. JS

      I, I love, I, I guess when you were saying, like when you're looking at a role or a person-

    6. CE

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... actually, you said a person, a, a real person, not a character. You were saying like you love how they, to figure out how they walk and how they talk-

    8. CE

      Yeah

    9. JS

      ... and why they do this. I think for me, when I'm, I'm fascinated by human behavior-

    10. CE

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... from the point of view of how can humans change.

    12. CE

      Right.

    13. JS

      I think that's what, like-

    14. CE

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... I get obsessed about.

    16. CE

      Yeah.

    17. JS

      I'm always like, "Well, when that person made that shift, what did they do-

    18. CE

      Yeah

    19. JS

      ... that helped them to make that shift, and how can other people benefit from that?"

    20. CE

      Yeah.

    21. JS

      Or like, how does that person make decisions that makes them a better decision maker?

    22. CE

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      Or why does that person lie or steal or cheat or whatever it may be-

    24. CE

      Yeah

    25. JS

      ... that ruins their life? So I think, yeah, I'm, I'm just trying to get to what change, did you have to make a change in mindset, or do you think it was a snowball effect of just these positive experiences that you kept collecting?

    26. CE

      I think it's like a slow and steady accumulation of trying.

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. CE

      Just trying things. When I was younger, I'd be, I was a little scared. When I, when I first went to drama school, the, what actually happened was I, I met someone at a, a young actors company. I told you the story before. Rae McCaan, and she, she told me I should go to drama school. But before that, I had, I had just gone out on a whim and decided I don't wanna be at, I can't go to university and study this subject that I'm studying. It's not, it doesn't feel right. It was sort of like listening to myself-

    29. JS

      Yeah

    30. CE

      ... and being okay with that. This might be a terrible mistake, but I'm not going to do this thing that I think everybody expected me to do, so I'm gonna l- leave university. I'm gonna just try this young actors company, this course that's at a theater. It's not, none of them, it's not a massive course that is around the wo- like, nobody really knows about it.

  13. 54:03 – 55:05

    “You can’t truly process something if you’re just talking to yourself.”

    1. CE

      I tell her no. I say, "I'm not doing it. That's, there's no way I'm gonna get in." She says, "Well, you can't come to this course if you don't apply to this-

    2. JS

      Wow

    3. CE

      ... school." And I say, "All right. I will apply to this school, but only this school."

    4. JS

      [laughs]

    5. CE

      "Just this one. Only because you asked, and I'm only applying to this." Fine. I apply, and we, and I do the work. I don't phone it in. I really do work to, to get to these auditions, and somehow I find myself in this drama school. Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. It's one of the best schools in the world for, for, for acting, and I feel like a fish out of water. But a lot of my experience at this school is about what feels right for me.

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. CE

      Because that's really how I can gauge it. At one point, like, and I, and I was physical. I was working out a lot, and one of the teachers says, "Oh, you should stop working out, 'cause you should get, you know, you need to get softer." And I was like, "I don't know that that's right.

  14. 55:05 – 1:01:02

    What do you do when you feel like you aren’t good enough for something?

    1. CE

      I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep working out, because it's good for my brain-

    2. JS

      Yeah

    3. CE

      ... and my mind, so I'm gonna keep doing that." And I find a, a person in my class who happens to just play the piano. He plays the piano beautifully. So we just pick up books from the library that are scores of music, and we go through these music scores. One of them happens to be Wicked.

    4. JS

      [laughs]

    5. CE

      And we learn that score back to front. I have no idea that 10-odd years later-

    6. JS

      Wow

    7. CE

      ... that thing is gonna be the thing I'm doing now. No idea. I have no idea. I just love the music, and I, and I know that going away to a music room with a piano with this person to sing all this music feels really good.

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. CE

      Feels good. We're doing these shows, and we all are, like, trying to get our agents and whatnot, and I think, I don't think the traditional way of getting an agent is really gonna work for me. So we put on a cabaret in the bar, because it feels good.

    10. JS

      Good. [laughs]

    11. CE

      I get my agent, and I finish early. So when I go to do this thing, we call it the tree, which is like a presentation of different scenes, I just do the things that feel good.

    12. JS

      Yeah.

    13. CE

      And people love it, and I feel good when I'm done, and there's no pressure. There's no anxiety, and I leave with a show to go to. And it's been a series of what's my gut and my heart telling me? The Color Purple came because I knew it was coming, and I was like, "I, I know I'm supposed to play Celie. I just, I just know it. I, I can't tell you why, but my gut is telling me, my heart is telling me that's what I'm supposed to do."

    14. JS

      Mm.

    15. CE

      No idea about what's happening next. We do this show in a little theater with 200 people. It's a 200-seater. That's it. Towards the end they ask, "So do you wanna, do you think you would want to do this on Broadway?" I don't think they're being serious. Cut to a year or two later, we're on Broadway, and we're doing this show. I have no idea of any of this. I think it's just accumulation of genuinely l- listening-

    16. JS

      Yeah

    17. CE

      ... to myself and not being afraid that the decision might be wrong.

    18. JS

      Totally.

    19. CE

      You know?

    20. JS

      Yes.

    21. CE

      Because, yes, some of it might be wrong, but then it somehow is right.

    22. JS

      Yes.

    23. CE

      [laughs]

    24. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. CE

      Right?

    26. JS

      Yeah. If, uh, you've just sparked something in me that I think has, has some, uh, truth in it, is the idea that if you listen to everyone else, chances are they might be wrong.

    27. CE

      Right.

    28. JS

      And if you listen to yourself, chances are you might be right.

    29. CE

      Right.

    30. JS

      And there'll, there might be some ways that it goes wrong, but when you're listening to yourself, you can take responsibility-

  15. 1:01:02 – 1:03:55

    How do we approach a challenge together and make it work?

    1. CE

      defend ourselves when, when we don't like the thing that we're hearing about ourself. Now, I think I'm ... I have more patience to sort of sit and be like, "The reason why you may think I'm difficult or th- or see that is because I'm, I'm maybe asking for things that feel like they're way f- it's just too much. But actually, I'm asking for the things that will allow me to be my optimum self for you."

    2. JS

      Yes, yes.

    3. CE

      "So that when we come away from this, you know I've given you everything I can possibly give you in the best possible way. It just takes patience and understanding for us to be able to meet in the middle."

    4. JS

      That's beautiful.

    5. CE

      Yeah.

    6. JS

      I love that. Great description. Okay, uh, question number, oh, five, yeah. What is a word or phrase that you're trying to embody today, something that you're working on, something that you're aspiring for?

    7. CE

      Today. I have this already, but I think it's an everyday voyage. Joy.

    8. JS

      Mm.

    9. CE

      Just f- seeking joy in every day, like in little things, being able to finish organizing something, or I did my vanity th- around my bathroom and I was like, "It looks really tidy." That's a little piece of joy. Meeting people in the street as I run, little piece of joy. Oh, I found, I don't know, s- a chocolate bar that I haven't had for ages. Joy.

    10. JS

      Yeah.

    11. CE

      You know, I've managed to get everything ready and I've got the right outfit and my, my water's preve- I'm prepared today. Joy. Like, finding pieces of joy in the little moments so that we aren't just waiting for big, massive things to happen.

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. CE

      That it actually is an everyday buildup of goodness.

    14. JS

      Yeah.

    15. CE

      So that when the big things come, they're just like a cherry on top.

    16. JS

      Yeah.

    17. CE

      Yeah.

    18. JS

      I love that. That's beautiful.

    19. CE

      Yeah.

    20. JS

      And I, and I wanted to end with our final conversation around what we talked about briefly before we started, was that you were saying that you're at this point in life where you're trying to figure out the difference between speaking from a place of love-

    21. CE

      Mm-hmm

    22. JS

      ... and then speaking from a place of fear.

    23. CE

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JS

      So often we're trying to speak from a place of love, but really, we end up speaking from a place of protecting ourselves.

    25. CE

      Yes. Yeah.

    26. JS

      And I wanted to hear how you felt today when you were sharing, like, how has that evolved for you? Because I think you're so right. I think especially people in the public eye-

    27. CE

      Yeah

    28. JS

      ... are always speaking from a place of fear.

    29. CE

      Yeah.

    30. JS

      Because everything you say is like, can be taken apart-

  16. 1:03:55 – 1:11:28

    The beauty of working in an industry that you love and passionate about

    1. CE

      what can, can help both of you meet somewhere in the middle and understand one another. So if I say, let's say something as simple as someone has said something that's hurt your feelings. Instead of saying, "That thing you said hurt my feelings, and I know that that wasn't what you meant to do, but that's how I felt," that person can go, "I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to. That's not what I meant at all."

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. CE

      Now we've not exacerbated anything.

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. CE

      I've just told you how I felt from a place of, not a- afraid that you're gonna get defensive about what you said. It's not, "You said that thing, and I don't think it was right, and w- it was really mean." Different turn of phrase, isn't it?

    6. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    7. CE

      You're not, speaking from a place of, "This is w- how it felt when it, when it came to me. Is that what you meant?"

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. CE

      Now there's a space to, to have a conversation about, "Well, actually, maybe this is what I meant." "Ah, now I understand." "Okay, well, now we can have a discussion about something."

    10. JS

      Yeah.

    11. CE

      When we speak from a place of love, what we're actually doing is giving the o- the other person an opportunity to be understood, and therefore you get the chance to be understood as well. When we speak from a place of fear, we're trying to stop the other person from getting upset, to stop ourselves from feeling even more rejection or more upset, and we can't walk around like that.

    12. JS

      Mm.

    13. CE

      We're essentially walking around like broken shells. That doesn't work. We want to allow people to make themselves whole-

    14. JS

      Yeah

    15. CE

      ... every time we have a conversation with them.

    16. JS

      Yeah.

    17. CE

      To leave a conversation thinking, "Oh, I learnt something. I understand something. I know something." If you leave a conversation going, "Did I actually get what I needed from that?" And that's often how people leave conversations, especially arguments. You leave an argument and you think, "I don't think I got what I wanted from that."

    18. JS

      Yeah.

    19. CE

      "I don't think I, I got the ex- the conversation I needed out of that. I'm still missing things. I'm still not understanding certain things."

    20. JS

      Yeah.

    21. CE

      Because we weren't speaking from a place of how do we solve this?

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. CE

      How do we, how do we make this better? We're just sort of, "I wanna be heard. You wanna be heard," as opposed to, "I wanna understand you so that you can understand me."

    24. JS

      Mm.

    25. CE

      Now we walk away thinking, "Oh, we got something."

    26. JS

      Yeah.

    27. CE

      And so usually by the end of those conversations when you were like, "I wanna understand you. You wanna s- understand?" You're like, "You good?"

    28. JS

      [laughs]

    29. CE

      "I'm good."

    30. JS

      Yeah.

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