You're Not Stuck With Your Personality (Here’s How to Rewire It Today)

1. 0:00 – 2:08

   Introduction

   1. OKOlga Khazan0:00

      People think that you were born with your personality and you're just stuck with it, but just because you've always been a certain way doesn't mean you have to stay that way.

   2. SPSpeaker0:07

      Olga Khazan.

   3. SPSpeaker0:08

      The author of Me But Better.

   4. SPSpeaker0:10

      The science and promise of personality change.

   5. SPSpeaker0:14

      Can an introvert actually become an extrovert if they want to?

   6. OKOlga Khazan0:18

      Rather than permanently changing, learn the ability to try on this personality trait. Put on extroversion.

   7. SPSpeaker0:26

      Is there an age at which it's impossible to change our personality?

   8. OKOlga Khazan0:30

      Some people change more after they're 30. Different choices that we make can change us throughout our lives.

   9. SPSpeaker0:37

      What's the difference between changing our habits and changing our personality traits?

   10. OKOlga Khazan0:41

       So you can actually fake it until you make it. Once you do your habits often enough, they will become part of your personality, and it won't feel fake anymore. It'll feel like it's part of your identity.

   11. SPSpeaker0:53

       How does this apply to people who are diagnosed with depression or ADHD? Can they also change, or is that very different?

   12. OKOlga Khazan1:01

       There's actually been this push in psychology to identify the personality traits that are associated with things like depression and ADHD, and actually has gone head-to-head with Lexapro, the antidepressant, and it works just as well.

   13. SPSpeaker1:15

       The number one health and wellness podcast.

   14. SPSpeaker1:18

       Jay Shetty.

   15. SPSpeaker1:19

       Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. Olga, I wanted to dive straight in, and the first thing I wanted to ask you is if someone listens to this episode, if someone reads your book, what are you hoping they can change and shift in their life? What are you hoping for them?

   16. OKOlga Khazan1:36

       I hope that they realize that whatever is kinda wrong in their life or not working for them currently, that they can change that no matter what age they are or where they live or what kinda job they have. You know, if they feel like they don't have enough community support, they don't have enough friends, that they can go out and make those friends. If they feel like their, uh, progression in their career is being blocked by inability to publicly speak or connect with large audiences, that they can learn those skills. You know, if they feel kind of disorganized or like they can't really get motivated, that they can learn

2. 2:08 – 3:03

   Key Takeaways From Olga

   1. OKOlga Khazan2:08

      organizational skills and make that happen for themselves. So it's really just whatever your goals are, and that you're able to align your traits and your behaviors with your goals.

   2. SPSpeaker2:18

      I love that. I mean, that sounds like something we all need-

   3. OKOlga Khazan2:20

      [laughs]

   4. SPSpeaker2:21

      ... and, and applies to each and every one of us. How did you discover this to be a block? Like, when did you recognize that this was a block for people, and what was that block that you were facing and trying to solve?

   5. OKOlga Khazan2:31

      It was really just that I was very unhappy, and there was no particular reason for it. So it wasn't like, oh, if this just gets resolved, I'll be happy again. You know, I kinda start my book with this anecdote about being in Miami in December, a beautiful time to be in Miami [laughs] . You know, the weather is unimpeachable, cannot be improved upon. Staying in this great place, having a great work/life balance, things with my partner were good. It was before we had our baby, [laughs] so we weren't tired. But I just had this day where I had all these, like,

3. 3:03 – 5:22

   Frustration As A Block

   1. OKOlga Khazan3:03

      minor frustrations. Um, you know, I got this really bad haircut, and I got stuck in traffic, and I, I got some photos taken of me that I wasn't crazy about. I was just like, "Ugh, I hate these photos," and I knew they were gonna be released widely. I had this, like, frustrating incident at a grocery store. And I get back to our Airbnb where we're staying, and I just kinda have a meltdown, and I'm, I like kind of feel just broadly unhappy with everything. You know, I immediately turn to alcohol, which is what I would do at the time [laughs] to manage my emotions. And I was just sorta so frustrated. Um, and then even, like, a few minutes later, I kinda thought, "Hey, why am, why is this all getting to me?" Like, if you look at anything about the situation, you know, I'm in this beautiful setting. Nothing is really wrong. I didn't get in a car accident or, you know, I, I wasn't even late for anything. You know, I didn't get fired from my job. My hair, whatever, grows back. I kinda realized that so often minor frustrations would really add up to me because of my high level of this trait called neuroticism, which is, uh, k- kind of associated with depression and anxiety. And so I kinda would get in these negative spirals where I would kinda add up these small things, these small negative events, and let them kinda ruin my whole day or my whole week, or start this narrative where my life is, is so bad. I can never be happy because these small frustrations happen to me. And I decided to kinda try to change that because you're never gonna have [laughs] a life without small frustrations. Like, nothing is ever gonna go perfectly. So the only way to be happy is to be able to be happy despite that.

   2. SPSpeaker4:39

      How did that link to personality?

   3. OKOlga Khazan4:41

      There was some interesting research coming out that people can actually change their personality traits, and when they do change their personality traits, they actually become, you know, happier, healthier, whatever it is that that trait is correlated with. It, it can really kinda increase all these positive elements of their lives. And so we think of personality as something that we're just kinda stuck with, like I am this kind of person and this is what I will always do. I'm the kind of person who will always get frustrated by small [laughs] inconveniences. But really, we have the ability to change the way we respond to situations. We have the ability to change our behaviors, even our kinda typical thought patterns. And really by changing those consistently,

4. 5:22 – 7:30

   Research Says We Can Change Our Personality Traits

   1. OKOlga Khazan5:22

      we have the ability to change personality. So that's kinda when I was like, "Maybe I should try a version of this for myself." [laughs]

   2. SPSpeaker5:29

      What is personality? Like, how do you define it? Because I feel like it gets thrown around, and then it gets mixed with so many different words. How, how do you define it?

   3. OKOlga Khazan5:37

      Yeah, a lot of people are like, oh, is it like the kinda jokes you tell or, you know, whether you're kinda loud and boisterous. Those are all kinda elements of personality. The way that personality scientists define it is the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most naturally to you. So something happens, someone honks at you at a red light, you know, or something, you know, do you flip them off? Do you wave at them 'cause you're [laughs] really good-natured? You know, do you, you know, meditate to yourself? That kind of shows your personality. And-Uh, the researcher that I follow the most for this book, uh, Nathan Hudson, who has done a lot of the research on personality change, he actually adds another element to that, which is that personality helps you get what you want. So personality is how we go about pursuing our goals. Agreeableness, which is another personality trait, can help you make more friends. It can attract people to you, it can kind of make you, you know, one of those people who has like a huge bridal party at your wedding. Conscientiousness can help you, you know, get up earlier, get more done during the day, um, get promotions at work and things like that, if that's what you're into. So kind of on top of being this like reflex and habit, it's also a way that we pursue what we want out of life.

   4. SPSpeaker6:46

      Why do you think all of us feel so stuck in who we are and start to believe things like, "I'm just not a funny person. I'm just a disorganized person. I'm just a negative person"? Why do we get so stuck?

   5. OKOlga Khazan7:01

      I think it's because we've been told for a long time that personality is permanent and that we just are a certain way. I think some of this comes from the fact that personality is partly genetic, so you think that, you know, something is genetic, it's inherited, you're gonna be just like your parents. What are your parents like? They're like this and that. You're gonna be a combo of that. It doesn't really work that way. We do... Obviously personality is, is, like everything, partly genetic. But that means that it, it's kind of a combination

5. 7:30 – 9:46

   Why Do We Get So Stuck?

   1. OKOlga Khazan7:30

      of different genes, the environment that you're in, and also your own decisions and your own actions, and what you choose to do can shape your personality. But I think for a long time the way scientists have talked about it, it sort of did feel like a death sentence. [laughs] Kind of like you're gonna be this way forever. Um, you know, the famous, uh, William James quote, "Personality is set like plaster after the age of 30." And so e- especially after 30, people think that they're stuck being a certain way. But really the more recent psychological literature has shown that people actually change both naturally, just like without really trying to, they, they kind of change over time, and people can also change over shorter periods of time by taking concerted effort.

   2. SPSpeaker8:12

      Do we know how much personality is nature versus nurture?

   3. OKOlga Khazan8:16

      It depends on the trait and kind of the person, but it's about 40 to 60% heritable. And I want to caveat that heavily. [laughs] So, so that means it's, it's, let's say, let's call it half, um, comes from your genes. But if you think about it, you're not like your parent's twin, right? So, so your genes, you get genes from them, but they kind of get combined in these unexpected ways, and they might manifest in different ways depending on, um, the environment that you grew up, the environment that you live in now, what kind of job you have. And so it's really this gene environment interaction that creates a lot of unpredictability in, in how your personality's gonna manifest. Just because you know that you have something genetically doesn't mean that you're kind of doomed to be that way or that it's definitely going to turn out a certain way.

   4. SPSpeaker9:03

      Is there an age from which we can't change our personality? You just gave that example of, you know, that old quote about the idea of 30 and it's set in plaster. Is there an age at which it's impossible to change our personality?

   5. OKOlga Khazan9:16

      So there have been studies that show that some people change more after they're 30 than before. So most people change a, a lot during their teen years, and especially during their early 20s. Um, so that's a time of-

   6. SPSpeaker9:29

      That makes sense

   7. OKOlga Khazan9:29

      ... very rapid change. A lot of people kind of become a version of who they'll be for a, a part of their life during that time. Both in my interviews with people and in, um, just the scientific literature, people kind of change throughout their lives across all the traits. Uh, different life

6. 9:46 – 11:47

   Is Personality Change Age Exclusive?

   1. OKOlga Khazan9:46

      events can change us, different social roles, different goals that we have, and different kind of choices that we make can change us throughout our lives.

   2. SPSpeaker9:55

      I like how everything you mentioned are things that people want to change for themselves, but not changing for people.

   3. OKOlga Khazan10:01

      Yeah, so that's been a big, um, misconception about this topic is people are like, "Well, I don't want to change my personality to please anyone." I'm s- don't do that. Like, don't change your personality to please anyone. Like, that's definitely not my message. I think you should change your personality to please yourself and to get what you want out of life, not to please other people. So that's, yeah, that's like a key distinction.

   4. SPSpeaker10:24

      Yeah. And, and how do we even go about knowing how we have to change our personality? Because I think when you really believe, it's almost like living in a city. So it's like let's say I've... I was talking to someone yesterday and they said, "I have lived in this town for 31 years, and I'm about to move to a bigger city, and I'm scared and nervous." That's almost what it feels like when you're changing your personality, because you're like, "I have lived in this body and this mind and this personality for 31 years. I don't even know which other city I want to live in. I don't even know which other personality I need or want." How do you even unearth and uncover how you may want to change your personality and what the right trait is?

   5. OKOlga Khazan11:12

      So there's, um, kind of the dorky scientific way, and then there's sort of less scientific, like woo-woo ways that might even work better. [laughs]

   6. SPSpeaker11:20

      [laughs]

   7. OKOlga Khazan11:21

      So the scientific way is, uh, there's a Big Five personality test. It'll, it'll measure where you fall along the five personality traits. So it'll tell you kind of compared to everyone else on Earth, you are much less extroverted than other people. So you're, you, you know, you're very low on extroversion. And so you might look at that score and think to yourself, "I'd like to change that. I'd like to be more outgoing. I'd like to make new friends," whatever it is to do with extroversion

7. 11:47 – 17:34

   How Can We Change Our Personality?

   1. OKOlga Khazan11:47

      that you want. And so then you can go about pursuing that goal. What I think you could also do is just like think about your values and think about what it is you, you want out of life. Like, a lot of people say they don't want to become more extroverted, and I kind of think that's fine if that's not a value that you have. But I've also talked to a lot of people who are like, "Look, I want to get, you know, a job as a manager at work. I don't want to, you know, be rank and file forever. I want to grow in my career," and that requires a certain amount of extroversion. Like to lead people, to speak persuasively, even just to manage people requires you to have extroversion skills. So if you think about that as a value for yourself, you could start to consider whether extroversion might be a trait that you want to work on. Another way that I did this personally is that I kind of looked at the people of- in my life that I was jealous of. So I have a friend who's very good at making friends. Like, she just is-A huge people person, and people love her and are drawn to her, and she could move to a new city and make 10 friends and be having dinner with them that night. And I was really jealous of that. I was like, "I kind of want that skill." Like, I was actually, like, texting her like, "How do you do that?" [laughs]

   2. SPSpeaker12:56

      [laughs]

   3. OKOlga Khazan12:56

      You know? Um, and so you could just look at your life at, you know, the people who do things that you're kind of like, "Ooh, that's cool."

   4. SPSpeaker13:02

      Mm.

   5. OKOlga Khazan13:02

      Like, "I kind of want to do that," 'cause that'll tell you the personality traits that matter to you.

   6. SPSpeaker13:07

      Yeah. I've always talked about how you can transform envy into study.

   7. OKOlga Khazan13:11

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SPSpeaker13:12

      And, and that's kind of how I've been my whole life. Any time I've looked at someone and admired them or liked something that they have, whether it's a trait, a skill, an ability, I'm like, "How did you get that?" Right?

   9. OKOlga Khazan13:22

      Yeah.

   10. SPSpeaker13:22

       And it's that idea and... But it's interesting, I've always been wired that way, so that's always been my natural, kind of when you were saying your thoughts that you naturally had, that's kind of how I've naturally always been. If I find something impressive, I want to know how to do it and how to build it and how to grow it, as opposed to feeling like they're special and I can't have that, if that makes sense.

   11. OKOlga Khazan13:42

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SPSpeaker13:42

       What about those of us who just feel, "Well, people should like me for the way I am." If I can't make friends as being authentically me, and the word authentic now has become this big buzzword and trend, so how does that fit into that idea of, well, people should love to hang out with you just the way you are. You shouldn't have to be extroverted like your friend. Are you being inauthentic by changing your personality?

   13. OKOlga Khazan14:08

       I mean, the truth is is that no one is ever authentically themselves 100%, right? That could be kind of off-putting if you just said everything that came to your mind without any kind of filter or, like, it... I think there was, like, a movie once where it's like someone just said whatever they were thinking, and it, like, people were very offended.

   14. SPSpeaker14:25

       [laughs]

   15. OKOlga Khazan14:26

       [laughs] 'Cause, you know, it's, uh, we actually do have a, a filter between ourselves and other people because we know that people kind of don't want that, like, completely raw, like, spur of the mind thoughts that come to us. So that's one thing is that, o- one, you're probably already filtering yourself at least a little bit. Maybe you're doing it in a, in a kind way where, like, you know, if a friend is in a bad relationship, you don't necessarily want to be like, "Yeah, keep dating that guy," you know? But you, you might say, like, "Hey, like, have you thought about, like, what you're getting out of this?" You know? But you, you might not just launch into a rant about how that person sucks, right? Like, you find ways of saying things that appeal to people. The other thing is that, like, how do you know what your authentic self is? Like-

   16. SPSpeaker15:11

       How do you know?

   17. OKOlga Khazan15:11

       [laughs] Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying is, like, I don't know that, like, we have necessarily a genuine, consistent, authentic self that we need to, like, preserve at all costs. I think that a lot of times our emotions are kind of fleeting and if you say something one day, you might not say it again the same way the next day, or if you feel something about, about something one, one day, you might not feel that same way the next week. So, you know, which one of those is, is authentic? You know, are you exactly the same as you were in college? If not, are you, are you faking it? Like [laughs] you know what I mean? It's, it, we all kind of change and shift over time and depending on the situation. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with that. I think that's called growth.

   18. SPSpeaker15:54

       Yeah. It's weird how we're fascinated by this addiction to authenticity right now.

   19. OKOlga Khazan16:00

       Yeah.

   20. SPSpeaker16:00

       But I agree with you. I, I think authenticity is you showing up in different ways at different time with different people, because you can't possibly be the same person with everyone, and you're not going to expose your full self to everyone at all times. It's just not a natural thing to do. But it's weird that we have this guise of authenticity that seems to be clouding our ability to grow, when actually probably the most authentic thing we can do as humans is to grow-

   21. OKOlga Khazan16:32

       Yeah, exactly

   22. SPSpeaker16:33

       ... and to choose to change.

   23. OKOlga Khazan16:34

       Yeah. And I, I don't know, I just think that, um-

   24. SPSpeaker16:36

       That's what survival is, right?

   25. OKOlga Khazan16:37

       Yeah.

   26. SPSpeaker16:38

       Yeah.

   27. OKOlga Khazan16:38

       No, no one is going to call you out for, I don't know, trying new things or trying new skills or trying new, new traits. I think that that can also be a part of authenticity. Anything that you do for the first time is gonna feel a little inauthentic.

   28. SPSpeaker16:51

       That's the interesting part is that we had Vin Giang on recently, who's a communication expert and public speaking expert, and he was saying that we change how we dress, and we don't think that's inauthentic, but then we don't change the way we speak. He was saying that our communication style remains exactly the same our whole life. So if we're monotonous and boring and we just think that's who we are, but the reality is that we, we are changing other parts of ourself. And you're right, when you try a new hairstyle, it feels a little uncomfortable for the first week. When you try a new pair of shoes or a new fit of clothing, it feels a bit uncomfortable, and that's not inauthentic. It's you trying to change your style or what fits you, and we can do the

8. 17:34 – 24:31

   Changing Habits Vs Personality Traits

   1. SPSpeaker17:34

      same with our personality. What are the gender effects on personality?

   2. OKOlga Khazan17:38

      Um, women tend to be more, uh, conscientious, uh, in some ways, more agreeable, and also much more neurotic. Uh, neuroticism is, like, highly associated with being female.

   3. SPSpeaker17:50

      If someone wants to be more extroverted, what do they do every day? What do they need to change?

   4. OKOlga Khazan17:54

      All you have to do is talk to people. [laughs] And it can take-

   5. SPSpeaker17:57

      When you don't want to.

   6. OKOlga Khazan17:58

      Yes.

   7. SPSpeaker17:58

      How does this work apply to people in relationships where they want their partner to change, and you'll hear someone go, "I just see their potential. I knew, I know who they could be. They could, they could really get it together, but they don't see it in themselves."

   8. OKOlga Khazan18:14

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker18:14

      When someone's thinking that way, how would you encourage them to think about change?

   10. OKOlga Khazan18:18

       I really wish I had written a chapter of this [laughs] book called How to Change Your Partner, because every single interviewer has asked me [laughs] that question, and I don't really have a good answer because we haven't really studied how to change other people.

   11. SPSpeaker18:29

       What's the difference between changing our habits and changing our personality traits? How do they connect or do they?

   12. OKOlga Khazan18:35

       This is a, a huge debate [laughs] within psychology. I will try to give the, uh, uh, not super nerdy version of it. So some psychologists think that-Habits basically become personality traits after a period of time. So if you, if it's your habit to do something and you do it consistently for years, th- okay, you're now, this is your personality. Some psychologists think that there's also an element of, like, thought behind that, where if you do something and you really like to do it, you kind of start to incorporate it into your personality, you start to kind of make it part of your identity. This is like, uh, you know, people who become runners and then they, like, kind of identify as runners, and they're like, "As a runner," you know [laughs] and they're, like, running marathons. You know, that's sort of, like, more part of their personality is, like, exercising a ton and being, you know, really, we would say, conscientious about running, more so than someone who just, like, kind of mindlessly takes a jog every day and, and they don't really think too much about it. It's a gray area between those two poles. Like-

   13. SPSpeaker19:35

       Right

   14. OKOlga Khazan19:35

       ... uh, I didn't used to be very conscientious, but I am now, and I can't tell you exactly when the switch happened from me just making a ton of to-do lists and, like, leaving early for everything and, like, being like, "Remember this, remember this," to, like, now me just doing it naturally.

   15. SPSpeaker19:51

       To me, it makes sense that our habits somewhat lean into our personality, because a repetitive action or a consistent action feels like it becomes normality, and then once it becomes normality... But I, but I appreciate the distinction between, for example, I, a habit I have is to brush my teeth twice a day, but I don't identify-

   16. OKOlga Khazan20:11

       Yeah

   17. SPSpeaker20:11

       ... as a brusher of teeth, right? It's, it's something I do, but it's not an identity. So I, I notice that nuance, whereas I play pickleball three to four times a week and I consider myself to be a pickler, right? That idea is there's an identity associated with that, and it's, I guess that's what you're saying is the difference between personality and habit.

   18. OKOlga Khazan20:32

       Yeah, you incorporate it into yourself a little bit more.

   19. SPSpeaker20:35

       Yes.

   20. OKOlga Khazan20:35

       Um, I have, I have one example, which is public speaking is part of my job. Uh, like, speaking at events, moderating events, doing stuff like this. And, uh, when I first started, uh, many years ago, I was not good at it. I was kind of painfully just, like, really shy. It made me really uncomfortable to do things like this. And I kind of just brute forced, kind of tried to get better at it. And I, I worked super hard, and it, it did become a habit. I did, I had to do a ton of these events and, like, we were always having them, especially before COVID. And I kind of felt like eventually I now really don't think about it. Like, I kind of... Like, if an event is coming up and I have to moderate something, I'm like, "Oh, okay, what time do I need to be there?" It's not even a, a process of, like, psyching myself up or, "Oh gosh, I'm so nervous." Even my physiological responses are not the same. Like, I don't get, like, sweaty palms and kind of-

   21. SPSpeaker21:26

       Mm-hmm

   22. OKOlga Khazan21:26

       ... jittery and stuff like that. So I, I don't know. Like, is, is being extroverted in that way... I guess it's part of my personality now, because I kind of reflexively do it. But, uh, the, in that intervening time, it was definitely like I'm not extroverted. I'm trying really hard to be, and I'm building this habit so that I can be.

   23. SPSpeaker21:42

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, my experience is exactly the same. My... I was so shy growing up as a kid. My parents forced me to go to public speaking and drama school from age 11 to 18, and I took exams in public speaking. I was trained nine hours a week for seven years, eight years of my life, and it transformed my ability to stand up in front of a room. I've now been public speaking since I was 11. I'm 37 now, so it's, what, 26 years of experience. So you could ask me to give a talk on any subject in three minutes and I'd feel comfortable. Granted, the subject would have to be something-

   24. OKOlga Khazan22:17

       Yeah

   25. SPSpeaker22:17

       ... I'm aware of, not something out of my expertise. But it would feel comfortable and easy, and I would feel calm. If you asked me to do that when I was 11, that would not be the case, and if you asked me to do that at 21, I would've had the skills, but I wouldn't have had the passion to talk about things. And so I had to find what I was passionate about. But I fully believe that people aren't just born with skills, that we notice them, and I think we've created this myth in society where people are just magical or special or gifted, and that actually does two things. The first is it limits us from becoming those people or achieving those things, and the second thing is it actually discredits those people for the amount of work they've put in. So when you look at the greatest athletes in the world, I had the fortune of interviewing Kobe Bryant a few months before he passed. He was in the gym for twice as long as everyone else. That's what he said, in his words. So you could argue he was gifted and special and all those things, and I'm not saying he wasn't, but he would say it was because he was in the gym for twice as long as everyone else. He was getting a four-hour shift in the gym before anyone woke up, and that was the difference maker in his mind. When you look at Cristiano Ronaldo, who's the biggest soccer player in the world, it's the same. Anyone who's been in his vicinity will say, "Well, he has a chef that's dialed in for his health, and he has the best recovery program, and he has the best fitness and wellness expert." When you look at it through his head, it's all work.

   26. OKOlga Khazan23:51

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SPSpeaker23:51

       Whereas when you look at it from the outside, you think it's magic and gifted, right? And so I think we discredit that person's work ethic by saying it's magic and special, and we actually steal the opportunity from ourselves from saying, "I can't do that because I didn't, I wasn't born with that." And so I hope everyone who's listening is having that recognition to say you can do it, and anyone that you admire has just put in the work, whether it's public speaking like yourself or whether it's playing four hours of basketball more than the average person.

   28. OKOlga Khazan24:23

       Yeah, and that's, that's a great example, and that is the same with personality change. Anyone who has a skill or a trait that you admire has probably

9. 24:31 – 35:09

   How Long Does It Take To Change Personality Traits?

   1. OKOlga Khazan24:31

      put a lot of effort into that.

   2. SPSpeaker24:33

      How long does it take then to change a personality trait?

   3. OKOlga Khazan24:36

      That's a good question, and it really depends on the trait. So I found with extroversion, extroversion was one of the traits that I wanted to increase. I kind of felt socially isolated and like I didn'tJust really know a lot of people in my community, and also just, especially after COVID, I was like, I, I kinda just don't talk to anyone. [laughs] Like, I'm in my house all the time, and I... Even though it was, you know, safe to, to do so. So, uh, for that one, I noticed the changes really quickly. Like, I, I found that I went from a preference to just stay at home on my couch and watch Netflix to a preference to get out there and talk to people, meet up with people, even if it's just at a, in a surface level way. I found that change happened after, like, a couple months. Like, maybe a month or two. W- with something more performative, like I did improv classes as well, that took several months for me to truly get comfortable, just because I'm not, as I said, a natural performer, and I... That gave me a lot of anxiety. So that one took a little bit longer. With something like neuroticism, which is depression and anxiety, it's something that can be really rooted in yourself. Like, it's not purely behavioral, right? Like, you can notice that someone is pretty calm seeming, but they could be really anxious on the inside. That can take a rather long time to change and to shift. Um-

   4. SPSpeaker25:52

      But it's possible.

   5. OKOlga Khazan25:53

      Yes. So, so the studies that we have show, like, it's like a f- a few months of therapy can really create a significant change in neuroticism. What I did was, like, a meditation class that, I think it lasted, uh, eight weeks or 12 weeks or something like that.

   6. SPSpeaker26:07

      What type of meditation?

   7. OKOlga Khazan26:08

      Uh, it was MBSR, and it's just pure mindfulness meditation for dummies. Nothing special to it. And that did work to decrease my neuroticism after, I think, like, three months.

   8. SPSpeaker26:19

      How? What did it do?

   9. OKOlga Khazan26:20

      I am still totally not sure what meditation specifically does in the mind. I will tell you what I think it did for me. So this meditation class was a combination of sitting silently for 45 minutes every day, or some sort of other mindful activity like yoga or walking. And once a week, uh, our teacher would give, like, a presentation about a, a topic in Buddhism that is, is probably very, very obvious to all of your listeners. Like, it's something that probably they have heard of or have come across or are aware of, right? It was, it was not super esoteric or, like, late-breaking, like, Buddhist thoughts. It was, it was very, uh, kinda simple. And I sort of was like, the whole time I was like, "Is this really doing anything? Like, I kind of already know about all this Buddhist stuff. I've come across it in my research, and this meditation is just really boring" [laughs] You know, "Is this... W- is this working?" And it did work. Uh, my, especially my depression score went down considerably throughout the course of this class.

   10. SPSpeaker27:22

       Is that a self score, or is it a-

   11. OKOlga Khazan27:24

       So all of these are self scores. There's really not a way to measure personality outside of self-assessment.

   12. SPSpeaker27:31

       Right.

   13. OKOlga Khazan27:31

       I would recommend for if people really wanna get super accurate scores, just do the tests a lot frequently, because then you'll kinda get a sense of, like, where you're falling, and it won't be, like, a random fluke result. But they're all s- self scores. Uh, but mine went down from the 94th percentile to the 39th percentile-

   14. SPSpeaker27:48

       Wow

   15. OKOlga Khazan27:48

       ... which is a lot. My anxiety went down. My depression just went significantly low to, to, I think, like, I was considered, like, not depressed. [laughs] And I think it was from these, like, Buddhist lessons that they taught us that somehow-

   16. SPSpeaker28:03

       Which one, uh, which one that stood out to you?

   17. OKOlga Khazan28:05

       Okay. So there's one... You're probably familiar with this. Have you heard of the double arrow?

   18. SPSpeaker28:08

       Mm-hmm.

   19. OKOlga Khazan28:09

       So the double arrow, for people who don't know, is this idea that something bad happens to you. Uh, let's say you don't get as much work done as you wanted to one day, and then you sit there and berate yourself. "Why didn't I get as much work done today as I wanted? Now it's gonna screw up tomorrow, and I'm not gonna get it done on time, and my boss is gonna be mad." That second part is a second arrow that you're basically shooting yourself with after the initial misfortune has happened. I knew this going into [laughs] the meditation program. But there was something about someone kind of explaining it to me as, like, a universal human phenomenon-

   20. SPSpeaker28:41

       Mm-hmm

   21. OKOlga Khazan28:42

       ... and something that you actually have control over. Like, you don't have to shoot yourself with this double arrow, this second arrow. You, you don't get any extra points in life from having two arrow injuries. You can just acknowledge that something bad happened, and think about, "Okay, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna move forward?" In a calm way, without a lot of self-blame. I think that really made the difference for me. I... A lot of my neuroticism came from self-blame, and I think a lot of other people's does too. And that class was really good if you're, like, a, a self blamer.

   22. SPSpeaker29:12

       Mm-hmm.

   23. OKOlga Khazan29:12

       It, it was, it was very good at increasing self-compassion.

   24. SPSpeaker29:15

       Having meditated for a long time now, I, I feel like it's really beautiful hearing about someone having an experience that in eight weeks was able to reduce depression that significantly. And even hearing about your experience is, is really special, because I think one of the things I find most interesting about the human mind is we think because we've heard something often that we understand it and that we've realized it, and therefore we're always looking for something new, not realizing that actually it's that age-old repetition of an idea that then you get to live and breathe and apply. And then all of a sudden it transforms your life. And it isn't always about finding a new... And I think this idea of we always wanna watch a new show or a new episode makes sense, because that work isn't healing or transformative. But these ideas that are timeless, that have been around for thousands of years, there's a reason why when they finally hit, they have this effect that, that, you know, you're smiling in front of me right now and nodding. It's, it's that feeling that you get, that you only get from something that heals you and transforms you-

   25. OKOlga Khazan30:26

       Yeah

   26. SPSpeaker30:26

       ... that you've heard it a million times, but then when the penny drops, it, it stays with you forever.

   27. OKOlga Khazan30:32

       So there's a couple things about it. It was a group class. It was a, it was Zoom, 'cause of the pandemic. People were kind of all sharing their struggles, and we were all kinda going through these realizations together too. And so just seeing how it applied to different situations-Even like very simple... Like, one thing my meditation teacher said was, um, she would always say is, "Things happen that we don't like." And, like, how simple is that? Obviously things happen that we don't like. Every day something happens that we don't like. But for me, I was like, "Oh, every single person here, sitting here, has things happen to them that they don't like." It's part of life. It's not always your fault. Even if it is your fault, sitting there and going, "Ar, why am I always causing things to happen to me that I don't like?" is not gonna fix the thing. [laughs]

   28. SPSpeaker31:18

       Yeah. Yeah.

   29. OKOlga Khazan31:18

       And for me, that was really... I don't know. That was therapeutic in a, in a way-

   30. SPSpeaker31:23

       Yeah
10. 35:09 – 37:36

    Gender Effects On Personality Traits

    1. SPSpeaker35:09

       notice the bad stories every day. I wanted to ask you, what are the gender effects on personality?

    2. OKOlga Khazan35:14

       Um, women tend to be more, uh, conscientious, uh, in some ways more agreeable, and also much more neurotic. Uh, neuroticism is, like, highly associated with being female.

    3. SPSpeaker35:26

       And then men?

    4. OKOlga Khazan35:27

       Men tend to be much less agreeable, less conscientious in certain ways, and then, uh, less, uh, neuroticism. Men ha- tend to have more of a, like, a [laughs] this, like... It's called the d- dark triad or basically, like, kind of an antagonistic personality trait, uh, that women, because of socialization or whatever, tend not to display as much. [laughs]

    5. SPSpeaker35:48

       And that's what makes heterosexual relationships so hard-

    6. OKOlga Khazan35:51

       [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker35:51

       ... because there's a-

    8. OKOlga Khazan35:52

       Oh, yeah

    9. SPSpeaker35:52

       ... there's a complete fraction of-

    10. OKOlga Khazan35:54

        All, all of the, like, my husband never mops the floor or whatever, that's personality based. Yeah. [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker36:00

        Yeah. But the thing is it's shared across men.

    12. OKOlga Khazan36:03

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SPSpeaker36:03

        As in it's not like it's just my guy.

    14. OKOlga Khazan36:06

        You occasionally will find someone... You know, obviously these are all averages, so you'll find someone who's, like-

    15. SPSpeaker36:10

        Sure

    16. OKOlga Khazan36:10

        ... below the average or what, above. Um, but yeah, it tends to be shared. Yeah.

    17. SPSpeaker36:15

        So that's something that all men need to work on.

    18. OKOlga Khazan36:17

        Yes. [laughs]

    19. SPSpeaker36:18

        [laughs]

    20. OKOlga Khazan36:18

        Yeah, exactly.

    21. SPSpeaker36:19

        So and that's, that's the hard part with that, right? Because romantic relationships is probably where we see this the most, where we just say to our partner, "But that's not who I am."

    22. OKOlga Khazan36:28

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SPSpeaker36:28

        "I don't wanna be that." And also because you feel the pressure that your partner wants you to be that way. What do you do when your partner wants you to be that way but you don't wanna be that way for them?

    24. OKOlga Khazan36:38

        You know, there could be another reason to be that way, though. Like, even if it would just make your relationship a little bit balmier, you know, maybe you understand each other better, maybe you communicate better because you agree to, to say things a certain way. My husband has this with, like, various thing... He likes things likeHe tends to think that eating the very last bit of something is rude, and I think that leaving a big bag with a tiny bit of something in it is rude [laughs]

    25. SPSpeaker37:08

        [laughs]

    26. OKOlga Khazan37:09

        But so now, though, I see, when I see a big bag with a little bit piece of something, I'm like, "Oh, he's trying to be kind to me," right?

    27. SPSpeaker37:16

        Yeah.

    28. OKOlga Khazan37:16

        Like, I'm seeing it through his eyes of, like, he's being empathetic. And when I, like, gobble down the last of the cheese and throw the package away, he tries to see it as, like-

    29. SPSpeaker37:25

        Yeah

    30. OKOlga Khazan37:25

        ... I'm being efficient and showing him love by not leaving crap in the fridge [laughs] .
11. 37:36 – 41:35

    5 Personality Traits That Make Up Personality

    1. SPSpeaker37:36

       of the same thing. Yeah. Could you name for us the five personality traits?

    2. OKOlga Khazan37:41

       Uh-huh.

    3. SPSpeaker37:41

       And then the personalities that are associated with those.

    4. OKOlga Khazan37:44

       So there's five traits that make up personality. You can remember them with the acronym OCEAN, which is nice 'cause we're in California. So it's openness to experiences, which is... This is the hardest one, so stay with me. But it's kind of, like, people who are open-minded, kind of down for whatever, kind of just you suggest a new restaurant to them and they're like, "Okay, yeah, let's check it out." C for conscientiousness. These are the go-getters that wake up early. They run every day. They know where all their stuff is. They work, uh, really diligently at everything. They pursue their goals. These are type, Type A [laughs] individuals. E for extroversion. We all have some sense of what this is. It's not just talking a lot. It- it's also, like, how much you like being around people and how kind of active you are. You know, are you kind of more the sit-on-the-couch person, or are you out and about doing stuff with other people is extroversion, even if you're not talking. Agreeableness is A, and it gets a bad rap because people think it means just agreeing with everything, but it's really how warm and empathetic you are in your relationships. So, you know, are you someone who is filled with a lot of antagonism? Do you start a lot of conflict with the people in your life, or are you someone who is able to take the perspective of others, puts others' needs before your own? So people high in agreeableness tend to have, like, a really deep and meaningful friendships and relationships.

    5. SPSpeaker39:09

       But it could lead to people pleasing on the negative end.

    6. OKOlga Khazan39:11

       It can, and I've heard from people who are like, "I wanna be less agreeable because I wanna be less of a people pleaser." And there are ways to set boundaries in relationships that can still be agreeable-

    7. SPSpeaker39:23

       Mm-hmm

    8. OKOlga Khazan39:24

       ... and that don't lead to people pleasing. And then N is neuroticism. Um, it's kinda... It's basically the two components of it are depression and anxiety. So and it's, it's kinda all about how negative your inner weather is. [laughs] Like, how gloomy is it in there? You know, is it all, like, you know, I had the worst commute into work today because a guy cut me off and blah, blah, blah, you know, or are you able to kind of take a minute in there and smile at something, laugh with someone, even just appreciate it being a normal day? That would be someone who's more emotionally stable, which is the opposite of neuroticism.

    9. SPSpeaker39:58

       Got it. And introversion fits into extroversion-

    10. OKOlga Khazan40:01

        It's the opposite

    11. SPSpeaker40:01

        ... because each are a scale.

    12. OKOlga Khazan40:02

        Yes. Yeah.

    13. SPSpeaker40:03

        So openness, closed.

    14. OKOlga Khazan40:04

        Yes. Exactly.

    15. SPSpeaker40:06

        Right?

    16. OKOlga Khazan40:06

        So they're all a-

    17. SPSpeaker40:06

        Conscientiousness-

    18. OKOlga Khazan40:07

        Yeah

    19. SPSpeaker40:07

        ... um, being unconscious.

    20. OKOlga Khazan40:09

        Yes. Uh, so the- they're all a spectrum, so no one is 100% one or the other. People are like, "I'm a total introvert." It's, you're probably, like, 23% of the way to [laughs] you know?

    21. SPSpeaker40:19

        Yeah.

    22. OKOlga Khazan40:20

        Um, uh-

    23. SPSpeaker40:20

        And are we all mixed? Are we all of them, right?

    24. OKOlga Khazan40:23

        Yes.

    25. SPSpeaker40:23

        We have, we have, we have a score on the spectrum of each and every one of them.

    26. OKOlga Khazan40:27

        We all have each of these traits inside of us to varying degrees. Generally, you wanna be pretty high on all of them other than neuroticism. You wanna be low on that one. But pretty high doesn't mean all the way high or extreme or in every situation or every day. It just means that, like, if called upon to give a wedding toast, you're capable of [laughs] doing that. You know, you're not gonna melt down. [laughs]

    27. SPSpeaker40:50

        Yeah.

    28. OKOlga Khazan40:51

        That would be, like, an appropriate amount of extroversion. [laughs]

    29. SPSpeaker40:53

        Got it. Got it. Yeah, that's so interesting you say that-

    30. OKOlga Khazan40:56

        [laughs]
12. 41:35 – 51:46

    Feeding Motivation For Change

    1. SPSpeaker41:35

       I'm stable," is the words he uses. But then when we get into it, he'll be honest and say, "I think I'm lazy. I'm not organized, and I disguise my lack of ambition as contentment. But really, I'm not happy. Like, I'm, I'm anxious. I'm stressed. I'm not in a good place." Is that changeable?

    2. OKOlga Khazan41:56

       Yeah. So for my book, I interviewed several people exactly like that. So they kind of thought they were just kind of, "Oh, whatever happens happens," kind of like, you know, "I'm, I'm content. I'm not very ambitious." But then one of the women, Julia, she really wanted to start her own business. She wanted to have her own copywriting business. But she worked as, like, a assistant at a hair salon, which was not really what she wanted to be doing. It was, it was a little bit menial and, like, just kind of she felt like she had skills beyond that. And she really just struggled to get motivated or, like, figure out how she was gonna start this business. She kind of just, like, flipped overnight. Like, she, again, kind of like my thing with the MBSR class, she read that, like, [laughs] you can accomplish your goals by just working at them for 20 minutes a day, just in some self-help book. This is not the secret to conscientiousness. But for her, this was like, "Oh, like, I could just do a little bit every day toward my goals. Like, I don't have to suddenly wake up and be a different person." And she did. She got super organized. She's, like, one of the most organized people I've ever talked to. She has-

    3. SPSpeaker42:58

       Mm-hmm

    4. OKOlga Khazan42:58

       ... like, all these to-do lists. She has a calendar. She has Jira tracking of her cl- You know, she's, like, very together, and this was someone who quit her job to-Start a business and then watch Game of Thrones for, you know, months, because she didn't have that skill initially. So yeah, it's completely possible.

    5. SPSpeaker43:15

       So how do we do it?

    6. OKOlga Khazan43:16

       So [sighs] what I found seems to work for people is that you have to have... This is now, like, a cliche at this point, but you really have to have a why. One of the other people that I talked to in that chapter, he came from this, like, very r- poor, rural part of Virginia, and he had never, like, studied really. He just wasn't into school, and he had never written a paper before, and he didn't realize that you can study for tests and in that way you can improve your score. [laughs] Um, so he gets to college somehow, like, the, you know, whatever low college he gets into, and everyone thinks he's gonna fail out because he's just not... School is not his thing. And then he takes one psychology class, and he's like, "Oh, this is so interesting. I'm learning about why people do what they do, the science of the mind. This is applicable to me. This is, this is fascinating." And he decides he wants to become an academic psychologist, like, a, a researcher in psychology, which is so far beyond where he is at that moment. [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker44:16

       Yeah.

    8. OKOlga Khazan44:16

       And he does. He honestly just completely turns his life around. He gets organized. He gets, like, a filing cabinet with all of his homework and all that stuff. He finds a study buddy, which having a partner in whatever, like, journey you're on is always gonna be more effective. They stay up all night reading and studying together and writing essays together and, like, puzzling through, like, what does this mean? What does that mean? He finds a mentor in psychology who kinda keeps him going and, and gives him hope. He makes flashcards for every test. He sets, like, timelines for when he's gonna start studying for each psychology quiz, and he is. He is a... He is now a tenured professor [laughs] in psychology.

    9. SPSpeaker44:54

       Wow. Wow.

    10. OKOlga Khazan44:54

        Uh, he got into UGA, which is a great grad school for psychology, and this is someone who I think made D's in high school. And it's really about having that thing that he's like, "This is what I wanna be doing. This is absolutely how I see it playing out," and nothing else in his life up until that point had ignited him in that same way.

    11. SPSpeaker45:13

        What are the strongest types of whys?

    12. OKOlga Khazan45:15

        I would say it's something that is gonna kinda fuel you for the rest of your life. So people often, it's like their kids. People will do anything for their kids because they just kinda consume you, and you're ... You have, like, an infinite amount of energy to pour into them. [laughs] Uh, for me, it was really... I really wanted to do journalism, and that was a big part of what made me more conscientious because I had a series of really boring jobs before I became a journalist, and I was like, "I can't spend my whole life being this bored." Like, I cannot go in day in, day out and not look forward to anything or learning anything or any kind of interesting conversation, just to-

    13. SPSpeaker45:55

        Mm-hmm

    14. OKOlga Khazan45:55

        ... you know, I was, I was a, a secretary at a mail order mailbox company. [laughs]

    15. SPSpeaker46:01

        Wow.

    16. OKOlga Khazan46:01

        And I was like, "This is, this is so tedious. This is so boring. I hate mailboxes. I don't care." [laughs] And I was like, "I c- I can't do this for the rest of my life." No shade to the people who work there. So that is something... It's like you, you can be kinda running away from something. Um, you can be running towards something. It's something that's gonna just kinda fuel you forever-

    17. SPSpeaker46:18

        Yeah

    18. OKOlga Khazan46:18

        ... not, not for the next, you know, week. [laughs]

    19. SPSpeaker46:20

        Yeah. Okay, so you need a why. What else?

    20. OKOlga Khazan46:22

        As I mentioned previously, having someone who's kind of on the journey with you can be for some reason really empowering. It's called the mutually reinforcing effect, and it essentially means that you kind of are, are learning from someone, right? You're getting strategies from them, so he was getting these, like, study skills from this other person. But he was also kind of learning alongside him, like, they were kind of... It kinda creates this positive sense of peer pressure where you're like-

    21. SPSpeaker46:50

        Mm-hmm

    22. OKOlga Khazan46:50

        ... let's do it together. Let's, like, run this race together. It makes you feel, like, less alone, especially when things get really hard, like, I think it, it was for him at times.

    23. SPSpeaker46:59

        Okay. And then what else?

    24. OKOlga Khazan47:00

        There's a final concept called episodic future thinking. So a lotta times we have trouble being conscientious because we can't see how it will all kinda look in the end. So I am not talking about the secret here, but it's kind of about visualizing with very specific details either the outcome that you're trying to generate or the outcome that you're trying to avoid. So for Julia, the woman who had the business, it was, you know, "I'm working for myself. I set my own schedule. I have all these clients. You know, I never have to see this hair salon again." [laughs] And it was, it was very clear to her, like, how she was gonna set up her home office, how she was gonna run her day, how she was gonna do this. So she had all the, like, kind of visualized pieces of it, and that would kinda keep her motivated when it inevitably got hard. For some people, it can be something negative, and as long as you're not so bogged down in the negativity, that can be motivating. So the, the guy who became a psychologist, his big fear was becoming an assistant manager at Wendy's. [laughs]

    25. SPSpeaker48:03

        Mm.

    26. OKOlga Khazan48:03

        Because that was, like, the only job that was available in his hometown, and so he was like, "If I have to go back to my hometown and be a assistant manager at Wendy's, like, I can't, I can't do that. I can't handle that."

    27. SPSpeaker48:12

        Mm-hmm.

    28. OKOlga Khazan48:12

        "I have to do well at school because I, I can't have this, like, Wendy's future happen to me." So that, that kind of thing can be really motivating, and that's, um, you know, connecting things to a bigger vision like that. A lot of the stuff that you're gonna be doing for conscientiousness is gonna be kind of tedious, like, you know, scheduling guests for your podcast, I bet, is, like, not the most fun [laughs] process, like, sending these emails and, like, finding a time. But it's, like, necessary for the larger vision.

    29. SPSpeaker48:40

        Yeah.

    30. OKOlga Khazan48:40

        So if you keep your focus on that larger vision, it will motivate you through those, like, difficult times.
13. 51:46 – 54:04

    How Can We Be More Extroverted?

    1. OKOlga Khazan51:46

       And it can take-

    2. SPSpeaker51:46

       When you don't want to.

    3. OKOlga Khazan51:48

       Yes. It can take whatever form you want. But my recommendation for people who are introverts, who are kind of just starting out, maybe you just moved somewhere new and you want to meet new people, sign up for an activity that happens regularly that you don't have to organize. Because I think where people get stuck is in the endless, like, text chain of doom of, like, "How about Tuesday? How about Wednesday? How about drinks? How about here? How about there?" Like, it's really hard to make things happen in our society because everyone's so overscheduled, everyone's busy, everyone kind of has this inclination toward introversion. So just sign up for something like pickleball or, like, whatever your thing is, whatever you can tolerate [laughs] that's like a group activity that's gonna happen with or without you. Because that's, to me, like, seeing the same people regularly over time is how you build connections and how you build friendships and not through, like, just being really good at scheduling. [laughs]

    4. SPSpeaker52:44

       Yeah. It's almost... I, I remember for me it was, I was around 15 years old. I was doing work experience at this company that my, I'd been connected to. And my job was to cold call 300 companies and try and sell event space for an exhibition. And I had never cold called in my life. At 15 years old, I didn't even know what that meant. And I remember getting a quick coaching session with someone who was really warm and actually really nice. His name was Joel, and just such a kind guy at the time. Like, he was in his 30s probably, but showing me the ropes. And I remember just calling 300, and he told me, "Hey, most of them won't respond. Most of them will say no." And I probably only sold 3 out of 300 exhibition spots, but I felt so confident to be rejected and cold call from that point because I'd picked up the phone and talked to 300 people, and I didn't feel like a failure, which is a really bizarre counterintuitive feeling because I failed 297 times. But the three exhibition slots I sold were just such big wins. And he was just like, "Yeah, those are the odds. Like, that's just how it works." And I feel like that was the moment I built a sense of confidence around being exposed to rejection. So it's

14. 54:04 – 56:56

    Exposure Therapy For Introverts

    1. SPSpeaker54:04

       almost like what you're saying is that exposure therapy of, hey, if you're not good at talking to people and you're bad at organizing yourself, pick something that's organized and just talk to one person, and then next week talk to two people there, and then next week talk to three people. And that exposure therapy slowly, slowly, slowly by the end of the eight weeks, you're like, "Oh, wow, I, I'm comfortable talking to people at pickleball now."

    2. OKOlga Khazan54:25

       Yeah, exactly.

    3. SPSpeaker54:25

       Or whatever it may be.

    4. OKOlga Khazan54:26

       Yeah. And it's, you know, not every conversation is gonna go perfectly. Like, not every person you meet is... I had some really awkward conversations that I describe in the book, like, with these new people I was talking to.

    5. SPSpeaker54:36

       Tell us about some of them.

    6. OKOlga Khazan54:37

       So I was doing a lot of Meetup where you go on, like, group outings with people. Usually it's, like, hiking or something like that. So it's a bunch of strangers who, who hike together. Again, if you go regularly, hopefully you get to know some of them. And I was doing a lot of, like, Bumble.

    7. SPSpeaker54:51

       BFF.

    8. OKOlga Khazan54:51

       Bumble Da-

    9. SPSpeaker54:52

       Yeah.

    10. OKOlga Khazan54:52

        Yeah, Bumble BFF.

    11. SPSpeaker54:54

        Yeah.

    12. OKOlga Khazan54:54

        And, uh, the Bumble BFF actually worked for me. I did meet a friend on Bumble BFF-

    13. SPSpeaker54:57

        [laughs]

    14. OKOlga Khazan54:58

        ... um, and we're still friends. But one of them was like, oh, she was trying to tell me that, um, women peak in high school, that she was not looking for a partner and was not ever interested in dating again because we were in our 30s and women peak physically in high school. And I was likeI really don't think women peak in high school [laughs]

    15. SPSpeaker55:19

        [laughs]

    16. OKOlga Khazan55:19

        That's really depressing

    17. SPSpeaker55:20

        It's a tough time, yeah.

    18. OKOlga Khazan55:22

        Yeah. [laughs] And I was just like, "How do I navigate out of this like-"

    19. SPSpeaker55:25

        [laughs]

    20. OKOlga Khazan55:25

        ... very, like, specific thing that you said that I really don't agree with [laughs] and that makes me sad that you think that. But so yeah, you're gonna meet people who you're like, "Wow, I don't agree with you at all about that."

    21. SPSpeaker55:35

        Yeah.

    22. OKOlga Khazan55:35

        You know, or just people who have, like, political opinions that are different from yours or whatever it might be. But, you know, then you'll meet someone like my Bumble BFF, Alex. [laughs]

    23. SPSpeaker55:43

        Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think what's hard about it is that humans feel the more certain we are about who we are, the safer we are.

    24. OKOlga Khazan55:53

        Hmm.

    25. SPSpeaker55:53

        And so when you start becoming uncertain about who you are and open to the idea that you could be more, it's a scary place to live because it's uncomfortable. But you don't like the idea that you met someone at 30, they're really outgoing, and now you're like, "No, no, no, I'm a homebody. That's, that's who I am. Like, stop trying to change me." And yeah, sure, I agree with you, don't change for that person, but have you ever asked yourself whether you want to be more than a homebody? Have you explored, have you experienced it to even know whether that's what you want? And I think we're scared to do that because we feel sure that, "No, no, no, I'm a homebody, and that's my identity, and that's what my friends know me for." And all my friends will be like, "Yeah, you're a homebody." And it evokes a sense of identity and purpose to some degree, even though it isn't a purpose. But it makes me feel like people know who I am and I know who I am. So as soon as I start changing... My wife went through this. So my wife was someone who was considered by her friends, family, and people around her that she was unorganized,

15. 56:56 – 1:01:43

    How Personality Changes Affects The People Around Us

    1. SPSpeaker56:56

       she was spontaneous, although she's the best time. So my wife is the best energy. She is magnetic. Everyone loves her, adores her. She does- she didn't used to make plans. She didn't have a plan, and it was really hard to get ahold of her, and that's, that's the reputation she'd built up. And then when she started to change that, so when she started to say, "Hey, sorry, I can't actually make that. I'm- I've got work right now," or, "Do you know what? That day I've got an event. I can't make it." Before she was always available, always open because she didn't have a schedule. People started to make her feel bad about that.

    2. OKOlga Khazan57:28

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SPSpeaker57:28

       Being like, "Oh, you've changed. Oh, but you always used to be up for this before. Oh, I realize you're bus- too busy for me now." And it was really interesting to watch her go through that because she was doing it for all the right reasons, because she wanted to be someone who was organized, disciplined. She was always disciplined in her workouts, but not as much in, in her work. And that shifted for her, and now she's extremely productive and effective and all the rest of it, and very happy about it. But that change, she had a lot of friends who didn't react well to that, and I think that's what people are scared of. Does that make sense?

    4. OKOlga Khazan58:00

       Oh, yeah. I, I completely identify with that on so many levels. So first, I think anyone who's ever given up drinking has had this exact thing play out. [laughs]

    5. SPSpeaker58:09

       Yeah.

    6. OKOlga Khazan58:09

       Where everyone in your life suddenly says like, "Come on, like, you're a party man. Like, what, what's going on with you? Like, you're not gonna be fun anymore." And then you have to, like, create this new identity of someone who still has friends but doesn't drink. The thing that was really resonant about that for me was that, so for a long time, I identified as someone who would almost certainly be a bad mom. I was like, "I am the kind of person who if I ever have a kid, I would mess up my kid 'cause I would be such a bad mom. I'm not fit to have kids." I just had this story about myself that like, "I can't do it." Even though I kinda wanted to do it, but I was like, "No, no, no, like, it's not for me. I'm, I'm not a kid person," right? And people kinda reinforced this in my life. So I remember when I got pregnant, my mom told me, "I can't imagine you as a mother." [laughs] And I think for me-

    7. SPSpeaker58:56

       Wow

    8. OKOlga Khazan58:56

       ... there was, like, some comfort in that because, like, having a child is scary. It's... And, and I'm not saying that everyone should or anything like that, but it is, it is, is a big leap. It's like, it feels like a big... It is a huge change in your life, and it's a big decision to make. It really, like, that fear, I was kind of explaining it away by like, "I don't need to make this decision because I won't be a good mom anyway." That totally has not played out. Like, I'm, I'm a g- great mom. Like, I, I love my son, and I adore him. The stuff that I thought I wouldn't like about it, uh, is the stuff I like the most. The stuff that I thought I would be best at is, like, I actually don't find that enjoyable. I, I always ask myself, like, "Why did I tell myself for so long that I was certain to be a certain way or that I'm just, like, doomed to be a bad mom?" I think we get that way about so many things in our lives. I, and, and it's counterproductive. [laughs]

    9. SPSpeaker59:42

       Yeah, and it, it's hard because at one point it's, it's hard because there's a sense of honesty and self-awareness at a point in time. It's when that story becomes finite and fatalistic that it becomes dangerous.

    10. OKOlga Khazan59:56

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SPSpeaker59:57

        Right? There have been points in my life where me saying, "I'm just not the type of entrepreneur that goes on vacation right now," has served me. But if I'm the entrepreneur forever that never goes on vacation, that is gonna hurt me. And so I think it's that nuanced balance between how is this self-awareness but not a self-defeating story, that's a really hard balance for people to toggle almost because it requires so much awareness, honesty, not falling into the extremes. It, it, it just requires... I don't even know what the right word is. Maybe it's maturity. It requires such a maturity to be able to hold an idea and not make it your identity, if that makes sense.

    12. OKOlga Khazan1:00:41

        Oh, yeah. And the thing you have to keep in mind is that people and situations will bring things out in you that you didn't think were there. Like, very few people before they've ever had a baby, like, are naturally baby people, you know?

    13. SPSpeaker1:00:55

        Yeah, makes sense.

    14. OKOlga Khazan1:00:55

        And, uh, first of all, they're only a baby for a year, so you don't even really have to worry about it that much. [laughs] But, um, you know, I kind of surprised myself that, like, you know, we bring this little bundle home, a couple months go by, they start kind of being more interactive and smiley and stuff, and you do. You start singing Baby Beluga and, you know, cooing at them and cuddling. You know, you start doing all this stuff because as you take on social roles, uh, or as you kind of pursue goals that are important to you, you kind of find things within yourself that you didn't think were there before. Like, we kinda have these, like, latent traits that, that come out when the moment is right. So even if, like, you don't think of yourself as a, a certain kind of person, you might surprise yourself when that situation comes up.

    15. SPSpeaker1:01:36

        Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out. It's like, it's almost not like... Because you can't live thisKind of willy-nilly approach to

16. 1:01:43 – 1:03:15

    The Social Investment Theory

    1. SPSpeaker1:01:43

       life of just, "Oh, it doesn't matter, I'll figure it out when I get there," because that could be dangerous. And then at the same time, you can't be the over-planner and the overwhelmed person who's trying to get every meticulous detail right of it because certain skills are only gonna come up in the moment. What is that balance called? Is there even a word for it?

    2. OKOlga Khazan1:02:02

       I think this is called, um, Social Investment Theory. But it's essentially this idea that over time, situations do change us. Like, as there, you know, there have been studies that found that as people, you know, get a job that they're really interested in and become really committed to, they become more conscientious-

    3. SPSpeaker1:02:18

       Mm

    4. OKOlga Khazan1:02:18

       ... naturally. Of course, they're, like, learning the skill in order to do it for their job. After people fall in love, they've done studies that found that they become more extroverted and more agreeable because your partner is bringing out those qualities in you. Like, they're kind of, like, highlighting these good parts of you and, and saying like, "Look, look, you, you have this in you." And I think that's really cool. Like, I think it's, it's good to know that as you, you take on these roles, eventually over time, you know, it's gonna be gradual, you'll kind of shape-shift to meet the moment. And, you know, you have to want to do it. You know, there's a lot of, like, parents out there who could probably stand to put more of a concerted effort into it, but I do think it's, it's hopeful that situations will bring out qualities in us.

    5. SPSpeaker1:03:02

       How does this work apply to people in relationships where they want their partner to change? And you'll hear someone go, "I just see their potential. I knew, I know who they could be. They could, they could really get it together,

17. 1:03:15 – 1:06:45

    How Does The SIT Affect Relationships?

    1. SPSpeaker1:03:15

       but they don't see it in themselves."

    2. OKOlga Khazan1:03:17

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker1:03:18

       If someone's thinking that way, how would you encourage them to think about change?

    4. OKOlga Khazan1:03:21

       I really wish I had written a chapter of this [laughs] book called How to Change Your Partner, because every single interviewer has asked me [laughs] that question and I don't really have a good answer because we haven't really studied how to change other people. Like, this is, like, the brick wall that all of society, like, bangs their head against, which is that we all wish our partners were a certain way and that our partners are never gonna [laughs] be that way completely. So first of all, like, any profound and serious change over time has to come from within, right? Like, if, if you really wanna make someone, like, less anxious, saying like, "Just calm down, stop worrying," you know, it doesn't work. Uh, they have to wanna be less anxious. For some of the skills though, or for some of the traits, it can be something where, like, maybe you introduce your partner to some of the tools that will help them be more conscientious. Maybe, like, you start an exercise program together, for example. Maybe you start, "Hey, let's, like, both set a time every week where we're gonna sync up our calendars and figure out who needs to be where when." You can do these, like, little tools and strategies to kind of move them closer, uh, especially to conscientiousness. This has been found to work well where, like, you can kind of do it in the background and it just kind of works. They don't have to really want it. It's hard because the, in order to keep that going, in order to go on a run, you know, without you, they have to want to, to do it. People want different things in life. That's, that's, like, part of what motivates personality change and what motivates everything else. You could try, you know, asking them if they're, they seem to be living in accordance with their values. It's like, "Hey, you said that you really wanted to exercise this year and we haven't done anything in weeks. Do you feel like we're exercising enough?" Like, [laughs] you could, you could do some motivational interviewing. But ultimately, you know, people have to find it in themselves to, to do the, the things that are good for them.

    5. SPSpeaker1:05:07

       Yeah, people don't-

    6. OKOlga Khazan1:05:09

       [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker1:05:09

       ... change for people.

    8. OKOlga Khazan1:05:10

       No. [laughs]

    9. SPSpeaker1:05:10

       They change for themselves.

    10. OKOlga Khazan1:05:12

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. SPSpeaker1:05:12

        And they change when they want to, they change how they want to, and they change at their pace and their time. And this idea that you have the power to change anyone, if you just stop for a moment and thought about how hard it's been to change yourself-

    12. OKOlga Khazan1:05:25

        Right

    13. SPSpeaker1:05:26

        ... you'd immediately realize that you have zero power over anyone else. And the reason why you're being asked it by everyone is because I think it's the biggest myth, because we think that if we can see someone's potential, we can change them.

    14. OKOlga Khazan1:05:40

        Mm-hmm.

    15. SPSpeaker1:05:40

        We think that if we can see someone's amazing future, we can change them. And we think if we can see what someone could be and achieve, that we're somehow holier than them for seeing that, and we think of it as well-intentioned. But actually it's not, because well-intentioned means I let you become who you wanna become, and I accept that that's who you are. And sometimes it's painful because you can truly see what someone's capable of, and that can be well-intentioned. But until they really believe they want that for themselves, it really doesn't matter. And, and that's, that is one of the most painful things to watch, is someone lose out on their potential.

    16. OKOlga Khazan1:06:19

        Yeah. I mean, and you can talk to any, you know, relative of an addict or anyone who y- you know, sees a clear path for someone and they won't take it. Um, it's, it's very hard to make other people do things that you think are good.

    17. SPSpeaker1:06:30

        How does someone who's more pessimistic and negative and is listening to us right now and thinking, "Olga, I want to become more of an optimistic or at least realistic person," where do I start? How does that personality

18. 1:06:45 – 1:09:31

    From Pessimism To Optimism

    1. SPSpeaker1:06:45

       change look?

    2. OKOlga Khazan1:06:46

       Well, you've come to the right place 'cause I am very negative [laughs] and pessimistic. I would say I still am, even despite, you know, this, this huge project that I did where I really, really tried to change myself. So something that I came across that was really helpful for this is, uh, the work of Tracy Dennis-Tiwary, who's a, a psychologist who studies anxiety. And a big thing, uh, kind of an idea that I had about my anxiety was that I need anxiety to kind of help me avoid bad stuff. Like, I need... Like, I will, I will, uh, screw up and, like, not get where I need to be or, like, you know, mess things up if, unless I stay really anxious and vigilant. And eventually what that would do is, is turn into just constantly worrying and constantly being in a negative space where I was, I was never really enjoying anything 'cause I was worrying about the next thing. So anxiety, you can worry, you can think about the things that could go wrong, right? Like, if you're putting in an offer on a house or trying to get a new job or whatever you're, you're doing, you can think about, like, oh, how, how could this interview go wrong, right? But also think about how it could go right. Really most things in life, some things go wrong and some things go right. Like, the, you know, what we were saying earlier. And you can actually make a list of your worries of, like, things that could go wrong with this, but then make another column of, like, things that could go right with this, and how will I try to move, like, more of these into this other column? Because-It is. It's unrealistic to only worry and to only think about the negative because some amount of things will, will go well. Or even if some of those bad things happen, there might be good in them.

    3. SPSpeaker1:08:19

       Mm-hmm.

    4. OKOlga Khazan1:08:20

       Or things that are, you know, maybe not so bad as, as you feared. Um, so I would just... I call it reverse worrying, and it's just, it's not just, like, positive thinking, "I'm sure everything will be fine," it's j- some things will be fine. [laughs]

    5. SPSpeaker1:08:31

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I like the idea of consciously having to think about those.

    6. OKOlga Khazan1:08:36

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SPSpeaker1:08:36

       Again, it's just rewiring those thoughts that are so habituated to constantly pull you in that negative cycle. And, and you're right, it isn't this false toxic positivity because that isn't helpful or healthy at all. And it does take a lot of practice and repetition because, yeah, you're likely to wake up in the morning and the first thought you have is, "Oh, I'm so tired. Just don't wanna get out of bed." And so your first thought of the day is a negative pessimistic one-

    8. OKOlga Khazan1:09:04

       Mm

    9. SPSpeaker1:09:04

       ... as opposed to an optimistic, thoughtful one of, "All right, I'm glad I got six hours last night," you know? Or, "Okay, well, yeah, I didn't get enough sleep last night, let me get to bed early tonight." Whatever that may be could, could make the shift. What about someone who's feeling like they're a people pleaser and they wanna set boundaries but they struggle with it because they're scared of being seen as selfish or assertive.

19. 1:09:31 – 1:14:35

    How People Pleasers Can Create Healthy Boundaries

    1. SPSpeaker1:09:31

       How did they start making that shift?

    2. OKOlga Khazan1:09:33

       I've really, uh, had to apply this [laughs] with parenting. But you can kind of, uh, [laughs] in a, in, in a way, you can kind of parent people around you. Not literally, but you can kind of, like, use some of the tools from parenting with other people, which is make people feel heard. Like, if someone's upset with you about something... To give you an example, I had a friend who texted me to say that she wanted me to check in with her via text message at least once a week, and that we were not going to be friends unless I text check in with her-

    3. SPSpeaker1:10:05

       Wow

    4. OKOlga Khazan1:10:05

       ... once a week. And I don't like texting, I just... It's, it's a, it's a very, like, a scheduling platform for me, not a, like, emotional one, and I, I just don't like it. And so at the time, I sort of was like, because it was before this project, I was like, "Oh, of course. I'll do whatever you want." I'll people please, right? "I'll, I'll text you every week." And of course I did it twice and then forgot because I don't actually like doing it. So what I learned from Miriam Kirmayer, who's, like, a friendship expert, is you can say, like, "Hey, I hear you. You feel like I'm not checking in with you enough. You feel like we're not connected. I totally get that. The thing is, I really don't like texting people in order to have conversations. It interrupts my workflow. Is there another way that we can do this that will meet your underlying need of being seen in this friendship, and being checked in on, and have... going through this hard thing, you know, with me checking on you, but not require me to use this platform that I really don't like [laughs] to do this thing that I really feel like it's not well-equipped for?" [laughs] "You know, maybe we could schedule a weekly phone call. Maybe we could go for a walk. Maybe we could do, you know, this other list of activities." There's almost always a solution like that where you're meeting the underlying need, but you're not doing it in this way that is, like, not workable for you.

    5. SPSpeaker1:11:16

       I love that because it is an underlying need. That person doesn't really want a text every week.

    6. OKOlga Khazan1:11:22

       No. [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker1:11:22

       That's, that's them trying to find the bare minimum way to keep you in their life. That's really what they're doing, is, "What's the least I can ask for-

    8. OKOlga Khazan1:11:30

       Mm-hmm

    9. SPSpeaker1:11:30

       ... to try and keep this person alive in my life? But what I actually want is a really meaningful conversation once a month on the phone or in person, where we go out for dinner, or have tea, or whatever it may be, and that's what I'm really looking for." And I think the more relationships go to solving the underlying need, the less bitter we'll feel around, "Hey, but I text you every week and you still don't feel close to me."

    10. OKOlga Khazan1:11:54

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SPSpeaker1:11:54

        I remember one of my friends said to me, she said, "I just don't spend any time with my partner." And I said, "Well, he just told me you guys went away last weekend." And she said, "Yeah, but he was reading a book," or the news or whatever it was, "and I was trying to entertain the kids, and we didn't spend any time together." And I was like, "Well, the underlying need is alone time, presence, connection. It's not time. You did have time together. You were both in the same place at the same time, but the underlying need is wanting connection in a, in a safe space." And probably... And, and, you know, it's asking that person what is that underlying need. And all of a sudden you start to realize it's eye contact, it's, uh, it's vulnerability, it's being able to share something that I've been struggling with. And, and, and I find that no one ever communicates that. We always communicate as like, "Oh, can we just see each other once a week?"

    12. OKOlga Khazan1:12:51

        Yeah. [laughs]

    13. SPSpeaker1:12:51

        And that's not really, you know, what you're looking for.

    14. OKOlga Khazan1:12:55

        Yeah. And this also works, I found, with, like, political disagreements. So when someone just comes at you, and I have people in my life who I really disagree with politically on, on very important issues. When someone comes at you and just starts ranting at you about their worldview that you don't agree with, often it's because they are kind of making a bid for connection. Like, they're like, "Hey, this thing is so important to me. Like, is it important to you, too?" Like, they're kind of trying to get you into their world.

    15. SPSpeaker1:13:19

        Yeah.

    16. OKOlga Khazan1:13:20

        Um, and once you see that, it becomes less about, like, this person is my political enemy, and more about this person wants to establish a friendship, let's find something else to, like [laughs] base it on 'cause we don't agree on this. But, you know, it can become almost like a, like a friendly thing as opposed to this, you know, political fight.

    17. SPSpeaker1:13:36

        That's a really beautiful nuanced point of if you notice people's conversations as a expression of them inviting you into their world, which is often what it is, you start realizing it's actually not that much of a... It doesn't have some deep agenda or something. It's just them saying, "This is what I think about." It, it's, it's really tough because we're all so busy and moving so fast, that when you see something you don't like or doesn't... And I think that's where we've got to in society today, is if I see a message or someone posts something on their stories that I don't like, I start labeling them as someone that I don't wanna interact with, rather than seeing that person as just a human who's expressing their thoughts, beliefs, and things they're interested in.

    18. OKOlga Khazan1:14:18

        Exactly.

    19. SPSpeaker1:14:19

        And we just don't have the time and capacity for that. I was gonna askCan an introvert actually become an extrovert if they want to?

    20. OKOlga Khazan1:14:27

        So I think they can, but I would recommend against thinking of yourself as a pure introvert or extrovert.

20. 1:14:35 – 1:18:24

    Can Introverts Become Extroverts?

    1. OKOlga Khazan1:14:35

       It, it's really uncommon to be all the way to one end or the other of introversion and extroversion. Let's say you're, you are quite introverted though. Like, like you would basically consider yourself almost all the way introverted. I think it is possible to become extroverted, but it's, it's gonna take a lot of work. It's gonna take a lot of effort. I think I kind of realized that I was more extroverted than I maybe was thinking at the beginning of this project. Like, I kind of found that I, when I didn't go to improv, I would really miss it, or when I didn't go to my little silly meetups, I was kind of like, the weekend felt a little empty. So I, I would kind of avoid categorizing yourself, and I would ki- I would just see what it feels like to have more social interaction than you're used to. But let's say it, it doesn't feel amazing. Like, let's say [laughs] you're like, it's, it, uh, is actually quite exhausting, and you're like, "I do need that quiet time alone to recharge." There's this concept called free traits that some psychologists have, which is that like rather than permanently changing to where it's like, "I'm a, I'm a total extrovert. In every situation I want to talk to people," you kind of learn the ability to kind of try on this personality trait. It's almost like an invisibility cloak or something, where you can kind of like put on extroversion and then do whatever it is you need to do with that extroversion.

    2. SPSpeaker1:15:49

       Mm.

    3. OKOlga Khazan1:15:49

       Um, so a lot of times college professors will do this 'cause they have to give these, like, interesting lectures, you know? But they're, the way they got to where they are is 'cause they're good at, like, reading papers for [laughs] you know, 12 hours at a time. So they're usually, they are pretty introverted, and Brian Little, um, he kind of does say that he puts on extroversion. Like, he puts on the free trait of extroversion, goes out and gives his lecture, and then he has to, like, go hide by himself. He can't, you know, stay in that room and glad hand. He has to go retreat and kind of restore to his, uh, introversion. So that's another way to think about, about it. I think that's still personality change 'cause it's still allowing you to meet your goals that you have, and it's not permanent. But, uh, you know, to anyone who talks to him, he would be an extrovert.

    4. SPSpeaker1:16:32

       And it, and it's just reconciling that with, again, I, I just see this challenge that we have with that today, which I don't think is... It's valid, but it's not justified, this idea of, oh, but that's inauthentic. Like, you're just, you're just using your, you're just manipulating something or you're adopting a skill. And it's like, well, no, we all have to have skills at work that we don't use at home.

    5. OKOlga Khazan1:16:55

       Yeah.

    6. SPSpeaker1:16:55

       Right? You're not that person at work, and you wouldn't try and organize your family in the way you project manage at work. And it's not inauthentic to turn that off at home. It's, it's normal to do that. And so yes, if you need to develop communication skills to get promoted, that's a healthy investment because that's an important part of your life if it is, and those skills will probably come in handy at home and in your personal life too.

    7. OKOlga Khazan1:17:18

       Oh, totally. Yeah.

    8. SPSpeaker1:17:19

       Yeah.

    9. OKOlga Khazan1:17:19

       Yeah. [laughs]

    10. SPSpeaker1:17:19

        So how, it's almost like how do we start looking at life as the accumulation of skills and abilities and traits and habits as opposed to shifting our entire identity because of that?

    11. OKOlga Khazan1:17:31

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SPSpeaker1:17:31

        Just in the same ways if you wore color today, you're now not someone who just wears color.

    13. OKOlga Khazan1:17:36

        Exactly. [laughs] Yeah.

    14. SPSpeaker1:17:37

        It's... You know? But it's, it's weird how the mind kind of plays that trick in saying, "Oh, I'm just people pleasing," or, "I'm just shape shifting"

    15. OKOlga Khazan1:17:44

        Mm-hmm

    16. SPSpeaker1:17:44

        ... which I think has become such a worry today.

    17. OKOlga Khazan1:17:46

        Yeah, or masking people.

    18. SPSpeaker1:17:48

        Right.

    19. OKOlga Khazan1:17:48

        Yeah, I've heard about, like, people saying, "I'm, I'm masking if I'm, like, doing anything functional." [laughs]

    20. SPSpeaker1:17:54

        Yeah.

    21. OKOlga Khazan1:17:54

        And I'm like, no, I mean, we are all masking to some extent. Like, you know, I have to go on the radio sometimes, and that's definitely, you know, a m- I, I don't talk all the time like I talk on NPR. [laughs] Like, you know, we, we all have different, uh, ways of presenting ourselves depending on the situation.

    22. SPSpeaker1:18:10

        Yeah. Definitely. I wanted to ask you a last few sections a question. How does this apply to people who are diagnosed with depression or ADHD? Can they also change that through this work, or is that very different?

    23. OKOlga Khazan1:18:23

        There's actually been

21. 1:18:24 – 1:21:25

    Can People With Depression & ADHD Change Their Personality?

    1. OKOlga Khazan1:18:24

       this push in psychology to identify the personality traits that are associated with things like depression and ADHD. So my depression score went way down with changing neuroticism. Neuroticism and depression, um, and anxiety are very closely linked. A lot of these things that we think of as sort of mental illnesses or mental health conditions actually have a personality trait component to them. And MBSR, the class that I took, actually has gone head-to-head with Lexapro, the antidepressant, and it works just as well. So in some ways changing-

    2. SPSpeaker1:18:54

       Really?

    3. OKOlga Khazan1:18:54

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    4. SPSpeaker1:18:55

       Wow.

    5. OKOlga Khazan1:18:55

       [laughs] So in some ways, changing your personality traits can address some of these, whatever you wanna call them, mental health conditions that you might not be thrilled with to have in your life. So if it is depression, you know, something like meditation or therapy can really go a great deal to, to addressing that. If it's something like ADHD, some people think that's just, like, a form of low conscientiousness. So if you think about it, it's just, uh, not having the systems in place to remember where your stuff is and where you need to be and what's on your calendar. So a lot of the, the therapists who work with adults with ADHD basically just, uh, give them the tools that, that [laughs] they use for conscientiousness. So it's like, here's a Google Calendar. Like, fill it out with every single thing you need to do this week. Here's, you know, Todoist, an app that I use. Here's a clock that you can set 15 minutes [laughs] ahead of time. It's coming up with the tools that people use to change personality traits too. And there's actually a, a new effort to treat, uh, borderline personality disorder, which is a mental condition-

    6. SPSpeaker1:19:55

       Mm-hmm

    7. OKOlga Khazan1:19:55

       ... um, it also has a personality component obviously, by changing personality traits. It's using some of the strategies in the book and, and through therapy to actually shift people's levels of agreeableness and, and so forth and, and actually help cure BPD.

    8. SPSpeaker1:20:11

       Yeah, I think we're just living at that time right now where it feels like work to go to MBSR or to therapy-

    9. OKOlga Khazan1:20:17

       [laughs] Yeah

    10. SPSpeaker1:20:18

        ... and you don't actually end up having any skills.

    11. OKOlga Khazan1:20:20

        [laughs] Yeah.

    12. SPSpeaker1:20:21

        Right?

    13. OKOlga Khazan1:20:21

        Yeah.

    14. SPSpeaker1:20:21

        Like, with the pill, like, you don't, you don't change your reality. You're numbing something or you're better at dealing with it or there's a, a sense of this doesn't worry me anymore.But there's not really an expansion of ability and skill. And, and my... I mean, I'm mindful of the fact that people are on very, very different levels and may need it, but it's quite fascinating to hear that MBSR has that-

    15. OKOlga Khazan1:20:45

        Mm-hmm

    16. SPSpeaker1:20:45

        ... ability and similar scores.

    17. OKOlga Khazan1:20:47

        Yeah, and, and what you have to keep in mind is that, and I'm pro antidepressants, whatever works for people, but, you know, they can reach a point where they don't work very well anymore. But the skills that you learn through something like meditation, mindfulness, even like a, you know, a cognitive behavioral therapy, they'll be with you through life even when you don't-

    18. SPSpeaker1:21:04

        Mm

    19. OKOlga Khazan1:21:04

        ... have your Xanax [laughs] handy-

    20. SPSpeaker1:21:06

        Yeah

    21. OKOlga Khazan1:21:06

        ... or whatever. [laughs] So it's, it's something I recommend maybe doing even in tandem with-

    22. SPSpeaker1:21:10

        Yeah

    23. OKOlga Khazan1:21:10

        ... whatever antidepressant.

    24. SPSpeaker1:21:11

        We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. So these questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

    25. OKOlga Khazan1:21:19

        Okay.

    26. SPSpeaker1:21:20

        So Olga Khazan, these are your final five. Question number one is, what is the best advice you've ever

22. 1:21:25 – 1:24:23

    Olga On Final Five

    1. SPSpeaker1:21:25

       had or received? And you can apply it all to personality in your world. So what is the best advice you've ever had or received?

    2. OKOlga Khazan1:21:31

       Go work at a place that will let you do exactly what you wanna be doing, even if it's a very small establishment.

    3. SPSpeaker1:21:40

       Uh, question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received?

    4. OKOlga Khazan1:21:43

       That if something is difficult, it's not worth doing.

    5. SPSpeaker1:21:46

       Question number three, what's something that you used to think was true about personality, but now you've changed your mind on it?

    6. OKOlga Khazan1:21:54

       I used to think that your birth order was the most important, uh, thing that determined your personality.

    7. SPSpeaker1:21:59

       Interesting.

    8. OKOlga Khazan1:22:00

       And it is actually not at all important. [laughs]

    9. SPSpeaker1:22:02

       Let's talk about that, uh, because people feel like, "Oh, if I'm the first child or the third child or this middle child"

    10. OKOlga Khazan1:22:06

        Eldest daughter, yeah. [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker1:22:07

        Yeah, none of that, none of that stuff's real?

    12. OKOlga Khazan1:22:09

        No. [laughs]

    13. SPSpeaker1:22:10

        Wow.

    14. OKOlga Khazan1:22:10

        There are some gender effects so that you could be picking up on, like, being a daughter versus a son, but, uh, their, the birth order, it's very negligible. It's, it's extremely small.

    15. SPSpeaker1:22:20

        Uh, question number four, what is the biggest change that you've seen in yourself going on this journey that you're most grateful for now looking back?

    16. OKOlga Khazan1:22:30

        Oh, it's the... I think I need to connect with other people in order to be happy.

    17. SPSpeaker1:22:34

        And you didn't used to believe that?

    18. OKOlga Khazan1:22:35

        No. I used to think that I could just be a little astronaut in space and never talk to anyone and be totally fine. I think I, especially as a new mom, I joined a bunch of new moms groups, and I, I really need those. You can't do it alone.

    19. SPSpeaker1:22:48

        I love that. Uh, fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

    20. OKOlga Khazan1:22:57

        No flaking on plans at the last minute.

    21. SPSpeaker1:22:59

        [laughs]

    22. OKOlga Khazan1:23:00

        What's with that? [laughs]

    23. SPSpeaker1:23:01

        [laughs] I love it when someone cancels on me.

    24. OKOlga Khazan1:23:03

        [laughs]

    25. SPSpeaker1:23:03

        It's like such a-

    26. OKOlga Khazan1:23:04

        [laughs] Oh, you, you have the joy of missing out, yeah

    27. SPSpeaker1:23:06

        ... I never cancel last minute because I'm not that guy, but I love someone canceling on me last minute.

    28. OKOlga Khazan1:23:11

        No. And so and it's always like, "You know, I just can't today." It's like, "Yes, you can."

    29. SPSpeaker1:23:15

        [laughs]

    30. OKOlga Khazan1:23:15

        "You do it every other day. Like, come on." [laughs]

Episode duration: 1:24:24