10 Sneaky Ways People Are Disrespecting You & What to Do About It | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 3:03

   Belittling comments decoded: a hierarchy grab, not a truth about you

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      A belittling comment from someone is never about you. It's about them. Today, in this episode, we are diving deep on the hidden meaning of belittling comments and asking the question: what do they really mean, and how do we handle them? All that and more coming up. When somebody makes a belittling comment to you, how do you react? What I'm hoping is that by the end of this episode, that answer changes, or at least you see a little bit more into the below the surface of what's happening between you and the person who's making that comment. The belittling comment, like I said at the beginning, is not about you. It's about them. Number one, when somebody gives you a belittling comment, meaning something that's mean, rude, meant to make you feel little, to be little, it is under no uncertain terms a grasp at maintaining hierarchy. In other words, it's an assertion of dominance. The word belittle, right? To, to make you feel small is to then make themselves feel big. And, uh, uh, in process of that, and as a result of that, you have this levels, this system of here they are now. They've created a hierarchy in which they're on top and you are below. That's how you feel with a bully, right? Think of grade school. Think of junior high, high school, wherever it is. Maybe in work, even now as an adult. You have somebody who's a bully personality. Where do they picture themselves in that hierarchy? Bullies never think that they're lower than you. They think they're above everybody. "Give me your lunch money. I have this spot. This is mine. That's mine now. I am the one on top of the hierarchy. You must all now serve me." Belittling comments are a grab for hierarchy. So that's why often when people feel the most insecure, they have to reach for outside things, right? To have that inner, that inner sense of a, that ability to live with themselves because they don't have that inner, inner security, so they have to have that outer grab for it. And where we hear that a lot of the times is that reach for hierarchy and dominance and saying mean things to make you feel less. Now, let me put this in a, a different view. Belittling comments are not always ones that are direct. Have you ever had somebody give you a belittling comment that you realized maybe a few minutes or an hour later of like, "I don't think that was a compliment. You know what? I don't, I don't think they really meant that. I think that was a slight." Belittling comments are not always direct. They can very much be indirect, and still it is a grab for hierarchy. So number one, what I want you to realize when somebody's giving you that kind of comment on the offensive is see it for what it is, and it is a grab for hierarchy. Number two, the

2. 3:03 – 7:06

   Use questions to expose intent instead of reacting with counterattacks

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:03

      best way to deal with that grab for hierarchy is to not take it personal by decoding the intent. Decoding the intent. In other words, rather than trying to see it in this glossy magazine style form, understand that there's hieroglyphics to it. In other words, there's this secret language that they're not giving you. So when somebody's saying something ugly, the best way to, to decode it is to use questions that look for the intent of what they're saying. I teach that the best way you can do this, and I have this all throughout my book, um, The Next Conversation, is that you use questions rather than responses when somebody's giving you something belittling. Not only because you're trying to get to the intent, but because you are trying to get them to see the intent. So let's assume you said something ugly to me right now. Go ahead. Think of something ugly. Oh, that hurt my feelings. I'm kidding. If you had said something ugly to me and my question to you after giving you a pause was, "Did you mean to hurt my feelings?" What does that do? What does that do? Immediately gets to the, the intent, the purpose, the motive. That's what you're looking for. If you said something mean to me and I went, "Excuse me, me? Let me, let me tell you something about you," and just send it right back to you and now I'm having that, that grab for hierarchy. "Oh, you think you're this? I, I don't know if you know who you're talking to. Maybe I need to remind you who I am." And you try to bow up. You try to get bigger. What is that? That is hierarchy grab. That is dominance. That is, "I am the king of the mountain here. I'm the, the superior one." And that almost always goes south, and you never get the true motive. Instead, you're the one who has to live with that and have to now, um, live with that regret and the wonder of what could have been had you not reacted so violently to it. And I don't mean physically, I mean with your, with your words when you send it right back to them. But if I were to say, "Did you mean for that to offend me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you say that so that I would get uncomfortable?" You hear me asking a question and trying to get to the intent? Shuts, shuts it all down and now puts it all back on you, the person who said the mean thing. They go, "Oh, I don't, I don't know." Maybe the spotlight is now back on you. Maybe it feels a little awkward. Maybe it all of a sudden just doesn't feel fun anymore because now you're going, "This is not what I thought this person would say." When you decode the intent, what it does is help you realize that it has nothing to do with you. They're just in a bad mood. Maybe they're feeling insecure or maybe they're having, um, feeling like their job is insignificant or maybe they're jealous in things that have nothing to do with you whatsoever. And by looking to the intent, it is now you naturally go up in the hierarchy without doing anything whatsoever. That is control. That is the genuine kind of authentic power of using your words to stand your ground. In other words, it naturally does that of a progression in the communication, not by trying to assert it. You feel the difference? So when you ask the question, "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to upset me? Did you mean? Did you intend? Was the purpose of you saying that to do X, Y, and Z?" Whenever you're able to ask those questions, you decode the intent for a better conversation, and for sure, if not a better conversation, to stand your ground

3. 7:06 – 10:40

   Belittling as projection: what their comment reveals about them

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:06

      and feel more confident and feel more controlled. And that right there is a lot to be proud of. And number three, understand that belittling comments, at the very outset we ask the question of what do they mean? Or what do they really mean? You know this. They're a projection of insecurity. Almost always somebody is projecting how they feel onto you. So not only are you looking for intent, part of that is you're starting to look at, oh, this is how they feel about themselves. If they're judgmental about what you're wearing or how you are looking, you can be rest assured they are all the more critical and insecure about how they look, and they would much rather call attention to you than to them. If somebody is putting down your intelligence in some way, one, that's a sign of somebody not being intelligent. That's somebody who's being emotionally immature, who lacks that emotional intell- intelligence. And so to make it up, they have to poke fun at your intelligence or your significance or how much you're worth in your job and who's more important. I feel like a lot of struggles between married couples, between, um, relationships and friendships and at work especially, it is a dominance of whose job is more important, whose job is more important. And that breeds a lot of insecurity between both people, and so you'll hear comments where somebody's trying to put down your job. "All right. I mean, you just have to go to that meeting. I mean, but that's not even that..." And they'll put it down because there is an actual insecurity of how they're feeling in that moment of whether or not they even matter or do they even feel authentic to themselves. And it, it is, it is natural and normal, and we are all capable of giving belittling comments. I don't want you to feel like belittling comments just come from these unknown... It, it al- it always comes from them. We have them too, all right? We have them too. And why? Because we know deep down if we have to go through the layers and are actually honest with ourselves, it's because deep down we have a insecurity that we're masking too. So as part of decoding the intent, understand that it is simply a projection of how they're feeling, and that helps inform you, that helps inform you of what's happening in that moment, and that is it, it is a grab for dominance. And your best move is to not retaliate, not respond, and use a question that goes to the intent that's going to give you the level of consciousness that you did not have before and see that, oh, this is simply a projection. And now I'm looking at the intent. This is a projection of how they're feeling, and now we're at the full circle is it's not about you, it's about them. All right? So number one, understand it's a power grab. It's an assertion of dominance and hierarchy. Number two, what you wanna do is use intent, questions of intent to decode what's happening, and it takes away that personal feeling and effect from you. And number three, it is simply a projection of their own insecurity, which helps inform you where you truly stand. And if you are listening to this podcast and go, "You know what? The next time I get

4. 10:40 – 11:40

   If they admit the intent: ‘Good to know’ and let them carry it

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:40

      a belittling comment, I'm not gonna respond. I'm gonna stay still. I'm gonna control myself. I'm gonna stay regulated. I'm gonna use a question of intent to find out what they really mean." And here you might be asking, "Well, Jefferson, what if they say yes?" If I say, "Do, do you mean for to, to embarrass me?" And they say, "Yes." Your response is, "Good to know," and act like it doesn't bother you at all because it shouldn't. It shouldn't. It's going to be let that weight be carried with them. They're the ones that are gonna have to live with that, that yes, and deal with those emotions that they have to carry. Eventually, they're gonna have to process that sometime in their life. Don't put that... Don't, don't you carry that. Most of the time people say no. They adjust. They walk it back. They feel awkward. They apologize. They feel sheepish. That right there naturally adjusts the control in the right way. We all know one, and in fact we might just be one ourselves. Today's episode is all about how to communicate

5. 11:40 – 17:14

   Handling strong personalities: pick battles and don’t take the bait

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:40

      with and handle a strong personality. When it comes to handling that strong personality in your world, number one, don't sweat the small stuff. Don't attend every argument that you're invited to. People that are strong personalities like to make issues of every little thing, and it is up to you whether you take that bait or not. Arguments are often like chess. You have to give up some pieces in order to win, so don't sweat the small stuff. Number two, don't take it personally. Don't take it personally. People who have strong personalities often don't know that they're coming on that strong. It's just a product of their nature. So if you take it personally, you are going into the area of no return, where you're gonna find that you are at the bottom of a vortex, and you're asking, "Well, how did I even get here?" It's because you took it personally. We're going to talk about how to separate the person from the problem. That's why, number three, we're gonna give... talk about phrases that help cue the strong personality to back off nicely, respectfully. Uh, cues such as, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Or, "Are you asking me to agree with you?" Or, "Do I need to agree with you?" You are letting them know that they are being a little bit too pushy, coming on a little bit too strong, and they need to back off. Just because it's a strong personality does not mean it's a bad personality. There are plenty of people out there that are wonderful. They just have strong personalities. They come on really strong, and that can happen for any number of issues. Maybe it's part of their nature. It's what they grew up in. I'm in a family of strong personalities. Uh, I'm surrounded by attorneys in the legal world, all very strong personalities. It might be a, a symptom of or a consequence of that's how they control their surroundings. That's how they operate. Again, it's part of their nature. And if you leverage a strong personality, they can do wonderful things. Many successful people are strong personalities, so it is not something... I, I wanna make sure that you understand I am not saying that a strong personality is something negative. It is something that can be highly positive. I'm a strong personality, all right? But it is in these moments where you are having an argument or a conflict or a disagreement that you tend to take that strong personality as something negative. I want you to stay away from that. Strong personalities are something that can be very positive and benefit any environment that they're in. I wanna talk more on number one, don't sweat the small stuff. Now, you might say, "Jefferson, that's easier said than done." I know. I know. Now, in my world, my dad would often, when I'd come to y- him with issues, um, and say, "This is what's happening," and, um, um, maybe I'm arguing [laughs] with my mom as a teenager or one of my siblings, my dad would say, "Don't make it your Alamo. Don't make that your Alamo." In other words, is... he was cuing me of this, is this issue really something that you wanna die on? Is this the hill that you wanna die on? Is this what you're gonna s- put your flag in the ground and say, "I'm not moving from this"? Often, that question would make me go, "You know what? Yeah, you're right. [laughs] That's not, that's not that important." And often, that- that's just part of human nature. We find ways to go, "They're not doing what I want, so I'm gonna argue with them, and now it's their fault." And that often just causes a whole lot of problems in our life that can be avoided if we just don't sweat the small stuff. Maybe it's that moving the couch, you know, to the other side of the room. Maybe it's a different detergent. Maybe somebody sat in your seat when you just got up. Little things that, in reality, they don't matter. And the more you find that you sweat the small stuff, you sh- you make an argument out of everything, and you attend every argument you're invited to, it's gonna slowly erode your peace of mind. You're gonna be more and more sensitive. You're gonna be more and more, um, on attack mode and on the offense all the time, and it's just not worth it. And that goes hand-in-hand with the concept of not taking it personally. When somebody with a strong personality is coming on and wanting their way and pushing, the question that I like to ask myself is, what does this person need? What do they need? What are they needing in this moment? What are they, uh, not just from me, but from the whole context of the conversation? Maybe it's they need to feel like they're secure. Maybe they need to feel like they have confidence. Maybe they need that sense of control. Maybe there is the unknown that they need a few things. There's always some kind of hidden need that is beneath the surface of their p- personality. Because w- you and I both know people that have very strong personalities, at the same time, can be entirely insecure. And so it's that insecurity that is driving and forcing that. So ask the question, and find out whether or not, where is this push coming from? When we said somebody's a strong personality, it's often because we say it feels like they're pushing in the conversation. They're always pushing their opinion, pushing their point of view, and, and there's no neutral territory for us to talk in. So often, you have to separate that person from the problem, meaning instead of saying, "God, you're so pushy. You, you, you, you," talk about their character, "You never listen to me. You always want your way." Instead of the you, you're talking about the problem, meaning you're talking about the issue itself. "Let's get back to the issue at hand. I wanna talk about the issue. Let's talk about what you're needing out of this conversation, what I need out of this conversation," instead of focusing on talking and disparaging each other's character. And the phrases that have always worked for me are what I call cues. I've mentioned that several times in this episode. These are just questions that

6. 17:14 – 19:37

   Phrases that cue someone to back off: ‘Do we have to agree?’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher17:14

      I ask, and they're really statements that sound like a question, that I'm, I'm using to prompt them to look at themselves. That's the, that's the point. Instead of me pushing something, like using an arrow to shoot at them, I'm using a mirror to get them to listen to themselves. For example, if somebody's strong personality's trying to push something onto me, I will use the question, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Usually, the answer is no. Almost always, the answer is no. They're just talking about it to talk about it. If, by chance, the answer is, "Yes, this is something we have to agree on," I follow that up with, "Well, is this something we need to agree on right now? Is this something we have to agree on now?" That adds the component, component of timing, because often it's not the right time. People with strong personalities push timeframes on you. They want you to have that conversation when they want to have that conversation. That doesn't mean it's right for you. So often you need to have that conversation when you're ready, too. So when you can prompt them by saying, "Is this something we have to agree on now?" Almost always the answer to that is no. They're gonna say, "No. I mean, we, we can talk about this later. You're right. We can talk about this later." And nine times out of 10, whatever was so important to that strong personality right there in that moment, in a few hours it's not that important. The next day, totally forgotten. When you can delay it, not sweat the small stuff, and not take it personally, it takes away the teeth out of it. Some other questions that have helped me in the past is asking them, "Is this something that we need to agree on at this moment?" Uh, I'm asking them, "Do we need to agree on this? Are you asking me to agree to this?" That's what I typically go with. I'll ask, "Do you need me to agree with you? Are you asking me to agree with you? Do I need to agree with you on this?" I'm just pushing that question to them of saying, "Hey, you understand that you're pushing your own opinion. Are you asking me to agree? Do I need to agree with you?" Often the answer is no. Accuse them that they're being a little bit too pushy in the conversation, and they will back off. The answer I typically get is, "No, no, no, no, no, I, you know, I'm just wondering about..." "That's what you want. You want that." "No, no, no, no, no. I, I... What I mean to- what I'm just trying to say is..." And it backs them off and lets them know that they're coming on just a little too strong.

7. 19:37 – 23:15

   Make them repeat the insult: removing the dopamine reward

   1. SPSpeaker19:37

      How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're, like, picking on your weight, or they're-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher19:44

      Mm

   3. SPSpeaker19:44

      ... constantly like, "Are you still single?" Like-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher19:47

      Yeah. [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker19:47

      You know? Like people, like, especially-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher19:49

      Yeah

   7. SPSpeaker19:49

      ... people that you're close with have a way of belittling you.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher19:52

      Right.

   9. SPSpeaker19:53

      What, what, what do you do in those situations?

   10. JFJefferson Fisher19:55

       When somebody's belittling you or giving you a insult and a hurtful comment, you make them repeat it. Because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, they're... You're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that, that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them, then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, "I need you to say that again," uh, you're very-

   11. SPSpeaker20:32

       I'm thinking of, of, like, using this-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher20:34

       Yeah

   13. SPSpeaker20:34

       ... with a couple people in my life.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher20:36

       Yeah. It-

   15. SPSpeaker20:37

       Uh, we need to role play this.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher20:39

       Sure.

   17. SPSpeaker20:40

       Um, I'm trying to think of a scenario.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher20:41

       Like you just said right there, um, you're still single.

   19. SPSpeaker20:45

       I need you to repeat that.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher20:46

       Yeah. You... So-

   21. SPSpeaker20:48

       [laughs]

   22. JFJefferson Fisher20:48

       Exactly, and I'm not gonna wanna say that again because now that spotlight is on me. And then also what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, "Did you say that to hurt me?" And now it's this mirror that they feel like, "Why did, why did I say that? Oh, okay." And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. But if often I can just repeat what they said... So if y- uh, somebody says to you, uh, "Oh, so you're still single?" "I need you to say that again," most likely they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. "I'm still single. That's what you asked me?" And all of a sudden they realize, "This isn't fun." They're not gonna ask that kind of thing again.

   23. SPSpeaker21:39

       Wow.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher21:39

       Or you just ask that question of, "Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me?" "Oh, no, no, no, no, I didn't say that. I... What, what, what I meant was..." And all of a sudden they're backing away because they know you're gonna stand your ground.

   25. SPSpeaker21:51

       Wow. This is, like, very eye-opening because I can see both situations where I need to use it, and I can see situations where I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I, I can think about, like, our, our daughter out in Los Angeles, and every time I see her she's wearing a piece of clothing that I [laughs] don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, "Is that new?" And I'm thinking in my mind, "Where, wh- where, where do you get the money for this?" You know-

   26. JFJefferson Fisher22:32

       Mm-hmm

   27. SPSpeaker22:32

       ... like that kind of thing. And then she's literally like, "Yeah, I thrifted it." And there's this little tiff thing. But if she were to say to me-

   28. JFJefferson Fisher22:39

       If she was to ask you a question-

   29. SPSpeaker22:40

       ... "Are you trying to embarrass me?"

   30. JFJefferson Fisher22:41

       Yeah.
8. 23:15 – 24:36

   Responding to disrespect in the moment: silence + a clear standard

   1. SPSpeaker23:15

      Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespect?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher23:18

      A lot of silence. So often if you just wait 10 seconds, you're gonna add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond. And that makes it very clear. 'Cause what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is, same way with belittling, they're wanting a reaction. They're saying this to get something out of you. 'Cause in that moment they're feeling something. Whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you're understanding you're not gonna, you're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not gonna be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of, "That's below my standard for a response." And then all of a sudden they feel like the, the dynamic has been flipped. "That's below my standard of respect." Something as simple as that. All of a sudden you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me, and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way. And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.

9. 24:36 – 27:05

   When your companion is disrespectful: model kindness, then set a boundary

   1. SPSpeaker24:36

      What do you do... I, I, I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother, and I said to her, you know, like, "How did it go?" And she said, "Well, it was fine, but it's my mother." And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher24:54

      Mm. Mm

   3. SPSpeaker24:54

      ... to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant. Like, so much so that the owner came over and said something to her. What do you... Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? You know what I mean? Like somebody's getting testy at the airport or, and they're, they're with you. It's not a complete stranger. Is there something that you could say to somebody in that situation?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher25:25

      Depends h- how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it, and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before where my grandfather came with me to Walmart. It was a terrible time. Uh, [laughs] and he was, he was in a bad mood, and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, "Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much," being overly, "Hey, I understand. Thank you," making that eye contact with this other person of, "This other person's not having a good time." And then you have that conversation... I had to have that conversation with my grandfather, and I-

   5. SPSpeaker26:06

      How did you do that?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher26:07

      I had to put a boundary, uh, a very firm boundary of, "If this is the way you're gonna talk to people, I can't come with you. If you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people, Pop, I c- I can't. I can't come." And so it very was, uh... "What, what, what am I saying?" "Uh, you're not being s- respectful to people." "Yes, I am." "I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people." And, and it's just having this, this conversation where they need to... It, it's the people you love, and often you have to be their, their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him, and that means I also have to make sure that I need to put... I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct of, "This is how you're talking to people."

   7. SPSpeaker26:58

      Has he changed?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher26:59

      He has.

   9. SPSpeaker27:00

      Wow.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher27:00

       We also just don't go to Walmart, so [laughs]

   11. SPSpeaker27:03

       [laughs]

10. 27:05 – 30:36

    Regulating yourself: breath, shoulders down, and saying less

    1. SPSpeaker27:05

       Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher27:13

       My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like, when you are feeling threatened, it's maybe, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, "I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation."

    3. SPSpeaker27:36

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher27:36

       And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe, or I say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're gonna have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of, um, regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say-

    5. SPSpeaker28:14

       Mm-hmm

    6. JFJefferson Fisher28:15

       ... but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted, so it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is gonna win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just, you lose your credibility. You've, you've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got? Now, now it's just aw- you, you want awkward silence between the two of you? You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person, and you've now just made it really awkward for the next, a few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kinda control your, your breath and your shoulders.

    7. SPSpeaker28:56

       And shoulders, like pull 'em back?

    8. JFJefferson Fisher28:58

       Uh, no. You're putting them down.

    9. SPSpeaker29:00

       Okay.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher29:00

        Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's, it's tension. Makes you cranky.

    11. SPSpeaker29:04

        Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table, and using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher29:34

        Yeah

    13. SPSpeaker29:35

        ... lowering your voice, deciding what you're gonna respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into, and it... When you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher29:54

        Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it, because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of, "I will e- engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation." You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of, "I can RSVP no. I can politely decline." I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, um... You've all been, we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

    15. SPSpeaker30:33

        Me.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher30:33

        Is the [laughs]

    17. SPSpeaker30:34

        [laughs] That's what I'm realizing.

11. 30:36 – 38:16

    Neutral phrases for gaslighting and provocation: ‘I remember things differently’

    1. JFJefferson Fisher30:36

       It's the person who's, who's least, like, in the know of what's happening in the heart of that, that company, versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident because, uh, confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over: "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently," period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it. Somebody wants to come at you, and they're gaslighting and make, trying to challenge, uh, your truth. "Um, I remember things differently," period. They wanna do it again because you're not going with them, "I remember things differently." In, in my world, people who are trying to gaslight are trying to be the laser and you the cat. They're just trying to make you go certain directions-

    2. SPSpeaker31:30

       Mm

    3. JFJefferson Fisher31:30

       ... everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. "I remember things differently," period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just, just let them dig their own hole. Let it, let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too often, you have this, uh... You ever been in those arguments where the person goes, "Well, but, but, but," and they have to go the whole timeline of everything. "No, no, you said this, and then I said this, and then so and so came in, and remember the water that came, and they spilled that." And they wanna go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to present the facts most favorable to them-

    4. SPSpeaker32:19

       Mm-hmm

    5. JFJefferson Fisher32:19

       ... expecting you to, to say, "Yes, that's exactly what happened." I remember things differently. That d- You don't have to explain that. You don't need to justify that because they're not gonna ask you for it because you're just not going with them.

    6. SPSpeaker32:32

       When somebody says, "Well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree"-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher32:36

       Yeah

    8. SPSpeaker32:36

       ... which always sounds a little passive, is there a response to that, or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?

    9. JFJefferson Fisher32:46

       I don't like it, uh, when somebody says, "Well, we can agree to disagree." I open it up, say, "It's okay to disagree with me. You can disagree." It's like you have to give permission. Sometimes people feel like they don't, they can't disagree with you, so open it up to give that permission. "If you, if you disagree with me, I wanna know. I want to know." Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion. Often you can talk, uh, different ways of how you're gonna disagree with somebody of, "I have a different perspective. I tend to lean differently," something that just says, "Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach."

    10. SPSpeaker33:21

        Hmm.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher33:21

        "I tend to have another approach." And so it's a matter of, "I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting there." As long as you're not talking about the other person of, "You are X. You're so X," it's that whole separating the person from the problem.

    12. SPSpeaker33:39

        I love this because there, there's somebody in my family who just loves... Like, you know the kinda person that just loves to poke?

    13. JFJefferson Fisher33:48

        Yeah.

    14. SPSpeaker33:48

        They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kinda throw a zinger of a opinion out there, and it's so offensive or, like, eh, that you kinda stop and think, "You don't even believe that."

    15. JFJefferson Fisher34:03

        Right.

    16. SPSpeaker34:04

        Like, you're just looking to get a rise outta somebody.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher34:08

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SPSpeaker34:09

        Is that the situation where you would go, "I just think about things differently"?

    19. JFJefferson Fisher34:15

        That's certainly one. You could easily say, "I tend to have another approach. I think differently about that." It's okay to say, "You know, I don't have an opinion," or, "If I had an opinion, I'd give it." That's pretty easy of, "I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure," finding ways of just being, uh, what I like to call the wet blanket.

    20. SPSpeaker34:33

        The wet blanket-

    21. JFJefferson Fisher34:34

        The wet blanket

    22. SPSpeaker34:34

        ... just like on a fire.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher34:36

        Exactly.

    24. SPSpeaker34:36

        Just throw a wet blanket on the fire 'cause, 'cause I... There are times where I literally just wanna be like, "You're a complete idiot"-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher34:44

        Right, right, right

    26. SPSpeaker34:44

        ... and just b- And then I think, "Why, why are you taking the bait?" This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, and then you grab it, and you're, "Ugh."

    27. JFJefferson Fisher34:53

        Exactly.

    28. SPSpeaker34:53

        And next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing, and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher34:58

        Mm-hmm.

    30. SPSpeaker34:59

        And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.
12. 38:16 – 49:40

    A mini playbook for rude/insulting/belittling behavior: pause, repeat, then respond

    1. JFJefferson Fisher38:16

       I find that people are really attracted to comebacks of things, and I find that so funny. But it's, it's a big part of communication for an important reason. When somebody is, let's say, belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful, there's kind of... I teach a, a little bit of a different method for each one, and how you handle it makes a very big difference. What we typically want to do when somebody's being rude to us or disrespectful, we want to throw it right back at their face. We wanna ratchet it up because now we gotta, now we gotta win. Say, "Oh, you think I'm stupid? How about, let me talk about how you're stupid." I mean, so we wanna throw it back at the other person. All that does is ratchet it up, and then again, it's, it becomes the who's going to apologize first. That kind of is where the game starts to lead. Um, what do you ha- I was curious what you have on the book now.

    2. SPSpeaker39:15

       Well, I was just looking at this section in your book-

    3. JFJefferson Fisher39:17

       Yeah

    4. SPSpeaker39:17

       ... about dealing with difficult people.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher39:18

       Yeah. That's probably my favorite.

    6. SPSpeaker39:20

       Um, it's your favorite?

    7. JFJefferson Fisher39:22

       Yeah. It was also probably the most popular part of the book because it outlines a specific manual on how to handle these kinds of people. And I've developed it from these people specifically that I've had in depositions and cross-examinations in the courtroom, that very combative people that you find ways to... You think that the power is in having a direct response back at them that's gonna uppercut them. Like, smart people, people like you, Steven, people like, uh, all your listeners, we have this desire that when somebody says something ugly, we wanna send a zinger. Like, we wanna have s- we wanna craft something so poetic that it's not gonna hit them till the two days. They go like, "Oh my gosh, he totally got me." And that's just not gonna happen. But the true power is this kind of be like water mentality. It's instead of direct with them, you're just avoiding it. You're pushing it out of the way to where you're going, "What you're saying is not threatening to me." And you do that in several different ways. This would be how I'd say how to handle people that are belittling you or giving you disrespect. One, you're gonna add silence, five to seven seconds of nothing. Two, you're gonna ask them to say it again. Let's say it's insults. The insults are very direct. You're gonna ask them to repeat it. And three, you're going to just let that sit. So whatever they say. So for example, um, let's put it in terms of somebody who... Let's give it a- an example. [sighs] This would be somebody who's giving you just a straight insult. Insults are different from, uh, disrespect or s- something being rude. Insults are very direct. It's saying, somebody saying like, "You're ugly." Right? Um, how I... If I were to say, "You're ugly," how would you respond? And you're not, by the way, but let's just say.

    8. SPSpeaker41:20

       [laughs] It, it, so, it's so hard because it's, like, the co- context dependent. Like if you just said it-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher41:25

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

    10. SPSpeaker41:26

        ... I'd laugh, but-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher41:27

        Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    12. SPSpeaker41:27

        ... if it was like... It depends on the context, doesn't it?

    13. JFJefferson Fisher41:30

        Yeah, I was like-

    14. SPSpeaker41:31

        For me

    15. JFJefferson Fisher41:31

        ... I was like, "Oh, that's, um, that's the shirt you went with? I guess. All right. Okay." Like that's-

    16. SPSpeaker41:35

        Yeah.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher41:35

        Uh, whenever somebody is insult, uh, insulting you-

    18. SPSpeaker41:39

        Yeah

    19. JFJefferson Fisher41:40

        ... we have this ability to get really mad and stew on it and get angry. But best way to do it is, let's say if you told me, "You know, I, I really think you're an idiot, Jefferson." Give it a l- a little bit of silence, and I would repeat, "I'm an idiot, Jefferson." Now, it's gonna put a spotlight right back on you for you to confirm it, double down on it, or you're gonna apologize. A lot of time in arguments, people take it back. "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have said that. My head was... My, I, I got too in front of it." But if they double down on it, what, all you need to do is just thank them. "Thank you." In other words, thank you for showing me who you are. Thank you for making sure that I'm not gonna be with you, uh, anymore. This is who you are in my life. Very different from, let's say, with somebody who is belittling you, uh, patronizing you, being condescending to you. This is where, uh, it gets fun. This is one of my favorite ones. So let's, let's give this a, um, a test.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher42:42

        Oh, Stephen, I see that, uh, you lost some weight. That's, that's great, man. Good f- good for you. How would you typically wanna respond to that?

    21. SPSpeaker42:48

        Thank you.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher42:49

        Yeah. Now, if I had said something that was, um, a little bit more ugly, if it was like, "Oh, you finally lost some weight. I was wondering when you would. Yeah. Uh, that's, that's good on you," would you still say thank you again?

    23. SPSpeaker43:01

        No.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher43:02

        Yeah. What would you say?

    25. SPSpeaker43:04

        That's rude. [laughs]

    26. JFJefferson Fisher43:04

        Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. You'd be like, "Oh, okay. That's, that's a little offensive." So here's what I would want you to do. Add silence. We're gonna have five to seven seconds of silence.

    27. SPSpeaker43:14

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher43:14

        And what that does is allow them their words to fall. So it's gonna, one, tell you that their words aren't threatening. You're adding that space in there for two reasons: one, to calm you down, 'cause you're gonna be using that breath we talked about. Second of all, it allows them to hear their words back because it's like they walk their words out onto a plank and now they're all alone. So if you, if you had said something ugly to me, and, um, you said something like, "Oh, well, um, Jefferson, great to be here, I guess. I, I guess we'll include you. I, I guess you just came." I- it's something that made me feel like I wasn't wanted. And if I just let that hang for a little bit and then I ask a question of intent, these are what I call questions of intent, where it says, "Did you say that to upset me? Did you say that to hurt me?" Or, "Did you mean..." If you begin your phrase with, "Did you mean?" "Did you mean for that to offend me? Did you mean for that to be rude?" I do this a lot in, uh, email correspondence or texts. When somebody sends something to you and you feel like all of a sudden it's rude, but really if you just text, "Did you mean for that to sound short?"

    29. SPSpeaker44:22

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher44:22

        Like, it cures up almost instantly because it's not exactly... A lot of the time people don't mean it that way. But they're gonna say something to you that is going to respond in... Most likely they're gonna say no. They're not gonna know how to handle that. They're not gonna do with that. If you can respond with, um, imagine, imagine being, like, imagine being the person who would say that, or how did you want me to feel? Or ask them, "How did you feel when you said that? How does it make you feel when you say that?"
13. 49:40 – 1:05:17

    Why pauses work: forcing the prefrontal cortex and exposing lies

    1. JFJefferson Fisher49:40

       Yeah. So one time I had a case between two sisters, and it was about as fun as it sounds. Uh, two older sisters, they're fighting over a company. Their dad had passed away. I had one sister. Another attorney friend of mine had another sister. And my client was, let's say, very level-headed. She wanted to preserve the legacy of the family and the company. The other had very different life choices, let's say. And the other one wanted to sell the company. Well, they eventually came to almost an agreement on how they were going to divvy up as, uh, buy, buy the sister out. We're at mediation, and I knew that, we knew that this other sister was... There was no telling what she was gonna, she was gonna say out of her mouth. And I had already prepared my client for if she insults, if she says anything ugly, "You're gonna ask her to say that again. All right?" So sure enough, we get at the mediation table, we have a, a opening discussion, and the sister, the, let's say the, the more fiery sister, goes on this tirade and s- and says how everything's against her. She hates everything, and then she looks at her sister and says, "And I've never, I, I, I've never loved you. You're dead to me anyway." Now that's, sister to sister, that's like terrible. Like it's, it was, it was super sad to watch. My client goes, "I need you to say that again to me." And the other sister couldn't do it. She didn't say that again because it, it puts them out on a ledge where they, they can't really... They're not gonna get the effect. It's not nearly as effective when you say it the second time.

    2. SPSpeaker51:18

       It's, the first time was through emotion. It was the amygdala.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher51:20

       You got it.

    4. SPSpeaker51:21

       And the second time was you forcing them to, into the prefrontal cortex to make like a, a logical-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher51:26

       You got it.

    6. SPSpeaker51:27

       Yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher51:27

       Now, now they have to think, "Does this make sense for me to say again?"

    8. SPSpeaker51:31

       Yeah.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher51:31

       Because the first, it, it, the first effect isn't there. It's not as, uh, it's not as powerful the first time. When somebody gives you an insult and you say, "You know, I didn't, I didn't catch all that. I need you to say that again for me. Can you repeat that?" Most of the time they won't because they know, uh, now I look bad. 'Cause you, all you did by with that question is put the spotlight right back on them, and they can't, they can't take that. So they don't know what to do with it.

    10. SPSpeaker51:57

        It's interesting 'cause some of the things you, as you were talking, I was thinking, is this like advice for dealing with really toxic people or is this also advice just for dealing with like couples arguing? 'Cause it sounded the type of person that would not respond to, "That really hurt me"-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher52:13

        Yeah

    12. SPSpeaker52:13

        ... sounds like a bit of a monster.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher52:15

        Right.

    14. SPSpeaker52:16

        Like a narcissist.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher52:17

        When, when somebody is-

    16. SPSpeaker52:19

        So if, if my girlfriend turned around to me and said-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher52:20

        Yeah

    18. SPSpeaker52:20

        ..."That really hurt me," I'd like, it would kill me.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher52:22

        Yeah. Some people, yeah. It, let's put it in, well, one, it's because you love the person, right? And, and she loves you, and so that's, that's a little bit different. When you're dealing with people that are everyday rude at the workplace or the office, or maybe you are in a relationship with somebody who's a narcissist or somebody who is toxic, or you have that bad relationship, I think it's perfectly okay to use these kind of sentences that are gonna put somebody back. I mean, like even let's say in my own relationship, okay, I certainly use, we both use, my wife and I, the, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" I've also said something in, said something I didn't mean, and she's come back using my own things, my-

    20. SPSpeaker53:05

        No, that's not okay.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher53:06

        Yeah. And-

    22. SPSpeaker53:06

        She's using your own stuff against you.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher53:07

        Oh my gosh, yeah. And, and, and she'll say, you know, "Did you, did you say that to upset me?"

    24. SPSpeaker53:12

        [laughs]

    25. JFJefferson Fisher53:12

        But s- and you're like... But, but, and at the same time, understand that when you say those kind of things, some sense of it is giving grace to the other person of not accepting that what they meant to say or what they said was what they meant to say.

    26. SPSpeaker53:27

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher53:28

        Because maybe I, I, I'm giving you the chance here to clarify. If I were to say, "Did you m- did you mean for that to sound rude?" And you're like, "Oh, goodness, no. That's not what I meant." I'm giving you the, the grace of a second chance rather than just deciding to, to take it personal. We do that a lot on text message. Like somebody sends you a text and all of a sudden you're feeling like, "Oh my gosh, this is the rudest thing ever," and then you find out they didn't give it with that kind of inflection or tone at all.

    28. SPSpeaker53:56

        I was thinking of two things at the same time. I was thinking when we approach these difficult conversations with d- difficult people, is there a certain priming that we need to do to ourselves to make sure that we're in the right frame of mind? Because even as a podcaster, I see huge variance in my ability to like speak and articulate myself based on things that happened in the last 24 hours.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher54:15

        Yeah.

    30. SPSpeaker54:15

        So is there a, do you ever think about like when you've got those big cases coming up-
14. 1:05:17 – 1:28:50

    Mindset tools: detach from attacks, ‘trash can’ visualization, and stop trying to win

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:17

       Yeah, exactly. One of the psychological or therapeutic, uh, strategies that I've learned is to imagine either a, a field, an energetic field around me that I can see it, but then it bounces off-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:36

       Okay

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:36

       ... the words.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:37

       Yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:37

       The intention-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:38

       Yeah

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:38

       ... the energy. It comes and then boink, it just goes around me and-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:41

       Right

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:42

       ... like water off a duck.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:43

        I feel like there's a Star Wars reference, but yes.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:44

        Yeah, exactly.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:45

        That's exactly right. Yeah.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:46

        Or what I'll do is I will separate the ego from the self, and I'll have the ego over here next to me psychologically.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:57

        Yeah.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:57

        And an image of it, the ego of me here.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:00

        Yeah.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:00

        And it's like, oh, they're just speaking to the ego.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:02

        Yeah, the detachment.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:03

        They're just, oh, they're speaking over here.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:05

        Right.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:05

        They're not actually speaking to me.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:07

        Yeah.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:07

        They might be looking at me, but it's just, brr, redirecting-

    24. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:09

        Right

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:10

        ... right here.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:10

        Right.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:10

        And, oh, this doesn't affect me.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:12

        Yeah. They're talking to that guy.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:13

        It just... Yeah. And I saw, um, I think I saw, I think it was Salma Hayek one time talk about this. Um, as she was giving the example somewhere online about how, you know, if someone spoke to you really poorly in Spanish and you don't speak Spanish, you're not gonna get defensive.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:31

        Right.

Episode duration: 1:28:50