10 Sneaky Ways People Are Disrespecting You & What to Do About It | Jefferson Fisher

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 A belittling comment from someone is never about you. It's about them. Today, in this episode, we are diving deep on the hidden meaning of belittling comments and asking the question: what do they really mean, and how do we handle them? All that and more coming up. When somebody makes a belittling comment to you, how do you react? What I'm hoping is that by the end of this episode, that answer changes, or at least you see a little bit more into the below the surface of what's happening between you and the person who's making that comment. The belittling comment, like I said at the beginning, is not about you. It's about them. Number one, when somebody gives you a belittling comment, meaning something that's mean, rude, meant to make you feel little, to be little, it is under no uncertain terms a grasp at maintaining hierarchy. In other words, it's an assertion of dominance. The word belittle, right? To, to make you feel small is to then make themselves feel big. And, uh, uh, in process of that, and as a result of that, you have this levels, this system of here they are now. They've created a hierarchy in which they're on top and you are below. That's how you feel with a bully, right? Think of grade school. Think of junior high, high school, wherever it is. Maybe in work, even now as an adult. You have somebody who's a bully personality. Where do they picture themselves in that hierarchy? Bullies never think that they're lower than you. They think they're above everybody. "Give me your lunch money. I have this spot. This is mine. That's mine now. I am the one on top of the hierarchy. You must all now serve me." Belittling comments are a grab for hierarchy. So that's why often when people feel the most insecure, they have to reach for outside things, right? To have that inner, that inner sense of a, that ability to live with themselves because they don't have that inner, inner security, so they have to have that outer grab for it. And where we hear that a lot of the times is that reach for hierarchy and dominance and saying mean things to make you feel less. Now, let me put this in a, a different view. Belittling comments are not always ones that are direct. Have you ever had somebody give you a belittling comment that you realized maybe a few minutes or an hour later of like, "I don't think that was a compliment. You know what? I don't, I don't think they really meant that. I think that was a slight." Belittling comments are not always direct. They can very much be indirect, and still it is a grab for hierarchy. So number one, what I want you to realize when somebody's giving you that kind of comment on the offensive is see it for what it is, and it is a grab for hierarchy. Number two, the

Jefferson Fisher 3:03 best way to deal with that grab for hierarchy is to not take it personal by decoding the intent. Decoding the intent. In other words, rather than trying to see it in this glossy magazine style form, understand that there's hieroglyphics to it. In other words, there's this secret language that they're not giving you. So when somebody's saying something ugly, the best way to, to decode it is to use questions that look for the intent of what they're saying. I teach that the best way you can do this, and I have this all throughout my book, um, The Next Conversation, is that you use questions rather than responses when somebody's giving you something belittling. Not only because you're trying to get to the intent, but because you are trying to get them to see the intent. So let's assume you said something ugly to me right now. Go ahead. Think of something ugly. Oh, that hurt my feelings. I'm kidding. If you had said something ugly to me and my question to you after giving you a pause was, "Did you mean to hurt my feelings?" What does that do? What does that do? Immediately gets to the, the intent, the purpose, the motive. That's what you're looking for. If you said something mean to me and I went, "Excuse me, me? Let me, let me tell you something about you," and just send it right back to you and now I'm having that, that grab for hierarchy. "Oh, you think you're this? I, I don't know if you know who you're talking to. Maybe I need to remind you who I am." And you try to bow up. You try to get bigger. What is that? That is hierarchy grab. That is dominance. That is, "I am the king of the mountain here. I'm the, the superior one." And that almost always goes south, and you never get the true motive. Instead, you're the one who has to live with that and have to now, um, live with that regret and the wonder of what could have been had you not reacted so violently to it. And I don't mean physically, I mean with your, with your words when you send it right back to them. But if I were to say, "Did you mean for that to offend me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you say that so that I would get uncomfortable?" You hear me asking a question and trying to get to the intent? Shuts, shuts it all down and now puts it all back on you, the person who said the mean thing. They go, "Oh, I don't, I don't know." Maybe the spotlight is now back on you. Maybe it feels a little awkward. Maybe it all of a sudden just doesn't feel fun anymore because now you're going, "This is not what I thought this person would say." When you decode the intent, what it does is help you realize that it has nothing to do with you. They're just in a bad mood. Maybe they're feeling insecure or maybe they're having, um, feeling like their job is insignificant or maybe they're jealous in things that have nothing to do with you whatsoever. And by looking to the intent, it is now you naturally go up in the hierarchy without doing anything whatsoever. That is control. That is the genuine kind of authentic power of using your words to stand your ground. In other words, it naturally does that of a progression in the communication, not by trying to assert it. You feel the difference? So when you ask the question, "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to upset me? Did you mean? Did you intend? Was the purpose of you saying that to do X, Y, and Z?" Whenever you're able to ask those questions, you decode the intent for a better conversation, and for sure, if not a better conversation, to stand your ground

Jefferson Fisher 7:06 and feel more confident and feel more controlled. And that right there is a lot to be proud of. And number three, understand that belittling comments, at the very outset we ask the question of what do they mean? Or what do they really mean? You know this. They're a projection of insecurity. Almost always somebody is projecting how they feel onto you. So not only are you looking for intent, part of that is you're starting to look at, oh, this is how they feel about themselves. If they're judgmental about what you're wearing or how you are looking, you can be rest assured they are all the more critical and insecure about how they look, and they would much rather call attention to you than to them. If somebody is putting down your intelligence in some way, one, that's a sign of somebody not being intelligent. That's somebody who's being emotionally immature, who lacks that emotional intell- intelligence. And so to make it up, they have to poke fun at your intelligence or your significance or how much you're worth in your job and who's more important. I feel like a lot of struggles between married couples, between, um, relationships and friendships and at work especially, it is a dominance of whose job is more important, whose job is more important. And that breeds a lot of insecurity between both people, and so you'll hear comments where somebody's trying to put down your job. "All right. I mean, you just have to go to that meeting. I mean, but that's not even that..." And they'll put it down because there is an actual insecurity of how they're feeling in that moment of whether or not they even matter or do they even feel authentic to themselves. And it, it is, it is natural and normal, and we are all capable of giving belittling comments. I don't want you to feel like belittling comments just come from these unknown... It, it al- it always comes from them. We have them too, all right? We have them too. And why? Because we know deep down if we have to go through the layers and are actually honest with ourselves, it's because deep down we have a insecurity that we're masking too. So as part of decoding the intent, understand that it is simply a projection of how they're feeling, and that helps inform you, that helps inform you of what's happening in that moment, and that is it, it is a grab for dominance. And your best move is to not retaliate, not respond, and use a question that goes to the intent that's going to give you the level of consciousness that you did not have before and see that, oh, this is simply a projection. And now I'm looking at the intent. This is a projection of how they're feeling, and now we're at the full circle is it's not about you, it's about them. All right? So number one, understand it's a power grab. It's an assertion of dominance and hierarchy. Number two, what you wanna do is use intent, questions of intent to decode what's happening, and it takes away that personal feeling and effect from you. And number three, it is simply a projection of their own insecurity, which helps inform you where you truly stand. And if you are listening to this podcast and go, "You know what? The next time I get

Jefferson Fisher 10:40 a belittling comment, I'm not gonna respond. I'm gonna stay still. I'm gonna control myself. I'm gonna stay regulated. I'm gonna use a question of intent to find out what they really mean." And here you might be asking, "Well, Jefferson, what if they say yes?" If I say, "Do, do you mean for to, to embarrass me?" And they say, "Yes." Your response is, "Good to know," and act like it doesn't bother you at all because it shouldn't. It shouldn't. It's going to be let that weight be carried with them. They're the ones that are gonna have to live with that, that yes, and deal with those emotions that they have to carry. Eventually, they're gonna have to process that sometime in their life. Don't put that... Don't, don't you carry that. Most of the time people say no. They adjust. They walk it back. They feel awkward. They apologize. They feel sheepish. That right there naturally adjusts the control in the right way. We all know one, and in fact we might just be one ourselves. Today's episode is all about how to communicate

Jefferson Fisher 11:40 with and handle a strong personality. When it comes to handling that strong personality in your world, number one, don't sweat the small stuff. Don't attend every argument that you're invited to. People that are strong personalities like to make issues of every little thing, and it is up to you whether you take that bait or not. Arguments are often like chess. You have to give up some pieces in order to win, so don't sweat the small stuff. Number two, don't take it personally. Don't take it personally. People who have strong personalities often don't know that they're coming on that strong. It's just a product of their nature. So if you take it personally, you are going into the area of no return, where you're gonna find that you are at the bottom of a vortex, and you're asking, "Well, how did I even get here?" It's because you took it personally. We're going to talk about how to separate the person from the problem. That's why, number three, we're gonna give... talk about phrases that help cue the strong personality to back off nicely, respectfully. Uh, cues such as, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Or, "Are you asking me to agree with you?" Or, "Do I need to agree with you?" You are letting them know that they are being a little bit too pushy, coming on a little bit too strong, and they need to back off. Just because it's a strong personality does not mean it's a bad personality. There are plenty of people out there that are wonderful. They just have strong personalities. They come on really strong, and that can happen for any number of issues. Maybe it's part of their nature. It's what they grew up in. I'm in a family of strong personalities. Uh, I'm surrounded by attorneys in the legal world, all very strong personalities. It might be a, a symptom of or a consequence of that's how they control their surroundings. That's how they operate. Again, it's part of their nature. And if you leverage a strong personality, they can do wonderful things. Many successful people are strong personalities, so it is not something... I, I wanna make sure that you understand I am not saying that a strong personality is something negative. It is something that can be highly positive. I'm a strong personality, all right? But it is in these moments where you are having an argument or a conflict or a disagreement that you tend to take that strong personality as something negative. I want you to stay away from that. Strong personalities are something that can be very positive and benefit any environment that they're in. I wanna talk more on number one, don't sweat the small stuff. Now, you might say, "Jefferson, that's easier said than done." I know. I know. Now, in my world, my dad would often, when I'd come to y- him with issues, um, and say, "This is what's happening," and, um, um, maybe I'm arguing [laughs] with my mom as a teenager or one of my siblings, my dad would say, "Don't make it your Alamo. Don't make that your Alamo." In other words, is... he was cuing me of this, is this issue really something that you wanna die on? Is this the hill that you wanna die on? Is this what you're gonna s- put your flag in the ground and say, "I'm not moving from this"? Often, that question would make me go, "You know what? Yeah, you're right. [laughs] That's not, that's not that important." And often, that- that's just part of human nature. We find ways to go, "They're not doing what I want, so I'm gonna argue with them, and now it's their fault." And that often just causes a whole lot of problems in our life that can be avoided if we just don't sweat the small stuff. Maybe it's that moving the couch, you know, to the other side of the room. Maybe it's a different detergent. Maybe somebody sat in your seat when you just got up. Little things that, in reality, they don't matter. And the more you find that you sweat the small stuff, you sh- you make an argument out of everything, and you attend every argument you're invited to, it's gonna slowly erode your peace of mind. You're gonna be more and more sensitive. You're gonna be more and more, um, on attack mode and on the offense all the time, and it's just not worth it. And that goes hand-in-hand with the concept of not taking it personally. When somebody with a strong personality is coming on and wanting their way and pushing, the question that I like to ask myself is, what does this person need? What do they need? What are they needing in this moment? What are they, uh, not just from me, but from the whole context of the conversation? Maybe it's they need to feel like they're secure. Maybe they need to feel like they have confidence. Maybe they need that sense of control. Maybe there is the unknown that they need a few things. There's always some kind of hidden need that is beneath the surface of their p- personality. Because w- you and I both know people that have very strong personalities, at the same time, can be entirely insecure. And so it's that insecurity that is driving and forcing that. So ask the question, and find out whether or not, where is this push coming from? When we said somebody's a strong personality, it's often because we say it feels like they're pushing in the conversation. They're always pushing their opinion, pushing their point of view, and, and there's no neutral territory for us to talk in. So often, you have to separate that person from the problem, meaning instead of saying, "God, you're so pushy. You, you, you, you," talk about their character, "You never listen to me. You always want your way." Instead of the you, you're talking about the problem, meaning you're talking about the issue itself. "Let's get back to the issue at hand. I wanna talk about the issue. Let's talk about what you're needing out of this conversation, what I need out of this conversation," instead of focusing on talking and disparaging each other's character. And the phrases that have always worked for me are what I call cues. I've mentioned that several times in this episode. These are just questions that

Jefferson Fisher 17:14 I ask, and they're really statements that sound like a question, that I'm, I'm using to prompt them to look at themselves. That's the, that's the point. Instead of me pushing something, like using an arrow to shoot at them, I'm using a mirror to get them to listen to themselves. For example, if somebody's strong personality's trying to push something onto me, I will use the question, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Usually, the answer is no. Almost always, the answer is no. They're just talking about it to talk about it. If, by chance, the answer is, "Yes, this is something we have to agree on," I follow that up with, "Well, is this something we need to agree on right now? Is this something we have to agree on now?" That adds the component, component of timing, because often it's not the right time. People with strong personalities push timeframes on you. They want you to have that conversation when they want to have that conversation. That doesn't mean it's right for you. So often you need to have that conversation when you're ready, too. So when you can prompt them by saying, "Is this something we have to agree on now?" Almost always the answer to that is no. They're gonna say, "No. I mean, we, we can talk about this later. You're right. We can talk about this later." And nine times out of 10, whatever was so important to that strong personality right there in that moment, in a few hours it's not that important. The next day, totally forgotten. When you can delay it, not sweat the small stuff, and not take it personally, it takes away the teeth out of it. Some other questions that have helped me in the past is asking them, "Is this something that we need to agree on at this moment?" Uh, I'm asking them, "Do we need to agree on this? Are you asking me to agree to this?" That's what I typically go with. I'll ask, "Do you need me to agree with you? Are you asking me to agree with you? Do I need to agree with you on this?" I'm just pushing that question to them of saying, "Hey, you understand that you're pushing your own opinion. Are you asking me to agree? Do I need to agree with you?" Often the answer is no. Accuse them that they're being a little bit too pushy in the conversation, and they will back off. The answer I typically get is, "No, no, no, no, no, I, you know, I'm just wondering about..." "That's what you want. You want that." "No, no, no, no, no. I, I... What I mean to- what I'm just trying to say is..." And it backs them off and lets them know that they're coming on just a little too strong.

Speaker 19:37 How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're, like, picking on your weight, or they're-

Jefferson Fisher 19:44 Mm

Speaker 19:44 ... constantly like, "Are you still single?" Like-

Jefferson Fisher 19:47 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 19:47 You know? Like people, like, especially-

Jefferson Fisher 19:49 Yeah

Speaker 19:49 ... people that you're close with have a way of belittling you.

Jefferson Fisher 19:52 Right.

Speaker 19:53 What, what, what do you do in those situations?

Jefferson Fisher 19:55 When somebody's belittling you or giving you a insult and a hurtful comment, you make them repeat it. Because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, they're... You're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that, that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them, then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, "I need you to say that again," uh, you're very-

Speaker 20:32 I'm thinking of, of, like, using this-

Jefferson Fisher 20:34 Yeah

Speaker 20:34 ... with a couple people in my life.

Jefferson Fisher 20:36 Yeah. It-

Speaker 20:37 Uh, we need to role play this.

Jefferson Fisher 20:39 Sure.

Speaker 20:40 Um, I'm trying to think of a scenario.

Jefferson Fisher 20:41 Like you just said right there, um, you're still single.

Speaker 20:45 I need you to repeat that.

Jefferson Fisher 20:46 Yeah. You... So-

Speaker 20:48 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 20:48 Exactly, and I'm not gonna wanna say that again because now that spotlight is on me. And then also what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, "Did you say that to hurt me?" And now it's this mirror that they feel like, "Why did, why did I say that? Oh, okay." And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. But if often I can just repeat what they said... So if y- uh, somebody says to you, uh, "Oh, so you're still single?" "I need you to say that again," most likely they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. "I'm still single. That's what you asked me?" And all of a sudden they realize, "This isn't fun." They're not gonna ask that kind of thing again.

Speaker 21:39 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 21:39 Or you just ask that question of, "Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me?" "Oh, no, no, no, no, I didn't say that. I... What, what, what I meant was..." And all of a sudden they're backing away because they know you're gonna stand your ground.

Speaker 21:51 Wow. This is, like, very eye-opening because I can see both situations where I need to use it, and I can see situations where I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I, I can think about, like, our, our daughter out in Los Angeles, and every time I see her she's wearing a piece of clothing that I [laughs] don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, "Is that new?" And I'm thinking in my mind, "Where, wh- where, where do you get the money for this?" You know-

Jefferson Fisher 22:32 Mm-hmm

Speaker 22:32 ... like that kind of thing. And then she's literally like, "Yeah, I thrifted it." And there's this little tiff thing. But if she were to say to me-

Jefferson Fisher 22:39 If she was to ask you a question-

Speaker 22:40 ... "Are you trying to embarrass me?"

Jefferson Fisher 22:41 Yeah.

Speaker 22:41 Like, or like-

Jefferson Fisher 22:41 Exactly. "Are, are you trying to insinuate something? Uh, are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me?"

Speaker 22:47 'Cause you're right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface.

Jefferson Fisher 22:53 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 22:53 But what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

Jefferson Fisher 22:57 It's that mirror.

Speaker 22:58 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 22:59 Yeah.

Speaker 22:59 Yes. So-

Jefferson Fisher 23:00 And so it takes away the power of their insult-

Speaker 23:03 Wow

Jefferson Fisher 23:03 ... when you can take all the fun out of it. You take all the oxygen out of their room, and they realize that they're not gonna be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

Speaker 23:15 Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespect?

Jefferson Fisher 23:18 A lot of silence. So often if you just wait 10 seconds, you're gonna add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond. And that makes it very clear. 'Cause what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is, same way with belittling, they're wanting a reaction. They're saying this to get something out of you. 'Cause in that moment they're feeling something. Whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you're understanding you're not gonna, you're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not gonna be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of, "That's below my standard for a response." And then all of a sudden they feel like the, the dynamic has been flipped. "That's below my standard of respect." Something as simple as that. All of a sudden you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me, and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way. And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.

Speaker 24:36 What do you do... I, I, I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother, and I said to her, you know, like, "How did it go?" And she said, "Well, it was fine, but it's my mother." And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful-

Jefferson Fisher 24:54 Mm. Mm

Speaker 24:54 ... to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant. Like, so much so that the owner came over and said something to her. What do you... Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? You know what I mean? Like somebody's getting testy at the airport or, and they're, they're with you. It's not a complete stranger. Is there something that you could say to somebody in that situation?

Jefferson Fisher 25:25 Depends h- how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it, and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before where my grandfather came with me to Walmart. It was a terrible time. Uh, [laughs] and he was, he was in a bad mood, and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, "Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much," being overly, "Hey, I understand. Thank you," making that eye contact with this other person of, "This other person's not having a good time." And then you have that conversation... I had to have that conversation with my grandfather, and I-

Speaker 26:06 How did you do that?

Jefferson Fisher 26:07 I had to put a boundary, uh, a very firm boundary of, "If this is the way you're gonna talk to people, I can't come with you. If you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people, Pop, I c- I can't. I can't come." And so it very was, uh... "What, what, what am I saying?" "Uh, you're not being s- respectful to people." "Yes, I am." "I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people." And, and it's just having this, this conversation where they need to... It, it's the people you love, and often you have to be their, their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him, and that means I also have to make sure that I need to put... I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct of, "This is how you're talking to people."

Speaker 26:58 Has he changed?

Jefferson Fisher 26:59 He has.

Speaker 27:00 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 27:00 We also just don't go to Walmart, so [laughs]

Speaker 27:03 [laughs]

Speaker 27:05 Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

Jefferson Fisher 27:13 My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like, when you are feeling threatened, it's maybe, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, "I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation."

Speaker 27:36 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 27:36 And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe, or I say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're gonna have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of, um, regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say-

Speaker 28:14 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 28:15 ... but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted, so it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is gonna win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just, you lose your credibility. You've, you've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got? Now, now it's just aw- you, you want awkward silence between the two of you? You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person, and you've now just made it really awkward for the next, a few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kinda control your, your breath and your shoulders.

Speaker 28:56 And shoulders, like pull 'em back?

Jefferson Fisher 28:58 Uh, no. You're putting them down.

Speaker 29:00 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 29:00 Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's, it's tension. Makes you cranky.

Speaker 29:04 Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table, and using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with-

Jefferson Fisher 29:34 Yeah

Speaker 29:35 ... lowering your voice, deciding what you're gonna respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into, and it... When you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

Jefferson Fisher 29:54 Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it, because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of, "I will e- engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation." You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of, "I can RSVP no. I can politely decline." I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, um... You've all been, we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

Speaker 30:33 Me.

Jefferson Fisher 30:33 Is the [laughs]

Speaker 30:34 [laughs] That's what I'm realizing.

Jefferson Fisher 30:36 It's the person who's, who's least, like, in the know of what's happening in the heart of that, that company, versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident because, uh, confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over: "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently," period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it. Somebody wants to come at you, and they're gaslighting and make, trying to challenge, uh, your truth. "Um, I remember things differently," period. They wanna do it again because you're not going with them, "I remember things differently." In, in my world, people who are trying to gaslight are trying to be the laser and you the cat. They're just trying to make you go certain directions-

Speaker 31:30 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 31:30 ... everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. "I remember things differently," period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just, just let them dig their own hole. Let it, let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too often, you have this, uh... You ever been in those arguments where the person goes, "Well, but, but, but," and they have to go the whole timeline of everything. "No, no, you said this, and then I said this, and then so and so came in, and remember the water that came, and they spilled that." And they wanna go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to present the facts most favorable to them-

Speaker 32:19 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 32:19 ... expecting you to, to say, "Yes, that's exactly what happened." I remember things differently. That d- You don't have to explain that. You don't need to justify that because they're not gonna ask you for it because you're just not going with them.

Speaker 32:32 When somebody says, "Well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree"-

Jefferson Fisher 32:36 Yeah

Speaker 32:36 ... which always sounds a little passive, is there a response to that, or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?

Jefferson Fisher 32:46 I don't like it, uh, when somebody says, "Well, we can agree to disagree." I open it up, say, "It's okay to disagree with me. You can disagree." It's like you have to give permission. Sometimes people feel like they don't, they can't disagree with you, so open it up to give that permission. "If you, if you disagree with me, I wanna know. I want to know." Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion. Often you can talk, uh, different ways of how you're gonna disagree with somebody of, "I have a different perspective. I tend to lean differently," something that just says, "Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach."

Speaker 33:21 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 33:21 "I tend to have another approach." And so it's a matter of, "I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting there." As long as you're not talking about the other person of, "You are X. You're so X," it's that whole separating the person from the problem.

Speaker 33:39 I love this because there, there's somebody in my family who just loves... Like, you know the kinda person that just loves to poke?

Jefferson Fisher 33:48 Yeah.

Speaker 33:48 They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kinda throw a zinger of a opinion out there, and it's so offensive or, like, eh, that you kinda stop and think, "You don't even believe that."

Jefferson Fisher 34:03 Right.

Speaker 34:04 Like, you're just looking to get a rise outta somebody.

Jefferson Fisher 34:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 34:09 Is that the situation where you would go, "I just think about things differently"?

Jefferson Fisher 34:15 That's certainly one. You could easily say, "I tend to have another approach. I think differently about that." It's okay to say, "You know, I don't have an opinion," or, "If I had an opinion, I'd give it." That's pretty easy of, "I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure," finding ways of just being, uh, what I like to call the wet blanket.

Speaker 34:33 The wet blanket-

Jefferson Fisher 34:34 The wet blanket

Speaker 34:34 ... just like on a fire.

Jefferson Fisher 34:36 Exactly.

Speaker 34:36 Just throw a wet blanket on the fire 'cause, 'cause I... There are times where I literally just wanna be like, "You're a complete idiot"-

Jefferson Fisher 34:44 Right, right, right

Speaker 34:44 ... and just b- And then I think, "Why, why are you taking the bait?" This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, and then you grab it, and you're, "Ugh."

Jefferson Fisher 34:53 Exactly.

Speaker 34:53 And next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing, and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic.

Jefferson Fisher 34:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 34:59 And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.

Jefferson Fisher 35:05 Well, that's, that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I think-

Speaker 35:08 I don't know. Like, I feel like maybe-

Jefferson Fisher 35:10 We need, we need everybody

Speaker 35:11 ... I'd be more powerful and calm. Like, you're such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom, and-

Jefferson Fisher 35:22 [laughs]

Speaker 35:23 You know, and most lawyers are very just-

Jefferson Fisher 35:26 I've had that comment.

Speaker 35:27 You have?

Jefferson Fisher 35:28 Y- yeah, that they didn't, they... I made it difficult because I never gave them an enemy, so I never gave them somebody I did not like. Same way for a jury. If, as long as the jury likes you, they... Yeah, you, you, you're 90% there.

Speaker 35:45 Jefferson, I think you actually just shared the secret of life.

Jefferson Fisher 35:48 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 35:48 No, seriously.

Jefferson Fisher 35:49 Hmm.

Speaker 35:50 Don't give someone else an enemy.

Jefferson Fisher 35:52 Hmm, yeah.

Speaker 35:53 Like, if you go... And this isn't about, like, being somebody-

Jefferson Fisher 35:57 Soft

Speaker 35:57 ... who is soft.

Jefferson Fisher 35:58 Yeah.

Speaker 35:58 And it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and your energy, and who is worth your time, and what is worth your energy, and what conversations deserve a response, and which ones deserve silence.

Jefferson Fisher 36:16 I like to call it being in the pocket.

Speaker 36:18 What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 36:19 The words... Well, in, um... I'm a musician.

Speaker 36:23 Oh, oh really?

Jefferson Fisher 36:23 Yeah. I, I play drums and, uh-

Speaker 36:25 For real?

Jefferson Fisher 36:26 I play several instruments, but yeah, drums

Speaker 36:28 I can't imagine you behind-

Jefferson Fisher 36:29 Oh

Speaker 36:29 ... a drum set. No, absolutely

Jefferson Fisher 36:31 You should have seen me.

Speaker 36:31 And did you ever have long hair?

Jefferson Fisher 36:32 I did, yeah. I had the whole, like... Yeah. I've been in multiple bands. There's a whole thing. Um, and-

Speaker 36:39 Oh, wow

Jefferson Fisher 36:40 ... so-

Speaker 36:40 Okay now.

Jefferson Fisher 36:41 [laughs] But part of it-

Speaker 36:42 See, you, this is your point. The person you're talking to is not the person-

Jefferson Fisher 36:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 36:46 ... that they are. Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 36:47 Exactly, yeah. Um, and it's this idea of when you're in the groove and everybody's bouncing their head, it sounds great. You're not lagging. You're not loud and forceful, and you're not calling attention to yourself. You're just in the pocket. I know I don't have to do anything crazy. I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to being the, the peacekeeper. There is a strength to being the calm mind. That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun. It doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket on every social situation.

Speaker 37:19 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 37:19 But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, "This is a difficult person," it's just a, a difficult problem for the two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning, and they were feeling it before they even entered the room, that the problem is not you, instead of taking it so personally, and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're gonna come away knowing that you have all the control in that situation. And, and that's a really empowering thought.

Speaker 37:57 So many people are so interested in understanding how to deal with disrespectful people.

Jefferson Fisher 38:01 Yeah.

Speaker 38:02 Like being disrespected.

Jefferson Fisher 38:03 Right.

Speaker 38:04 So if I'm being disrespected-

Jefferson Fisher 38:06 Uh-huh

Speaker 38:06 ... is there a playbook for me to handle that? And why is it that so many people are so obsessed with, like, dealing with disrespect?

Jefferson Fisher 38:16 I find that people are really attracted to comebacks of things, and I find that so funny. But it's, it's a big part of communication for an important reason. When somebody is, let's say, belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful, there's kind of... I teach a, a little bit of a different method for each one, and how you handle it makes a very big difference. What we typically want to do when somebody's being rude to us or disrespectful, we want to throw it right back at their face. We wanna ratchet it up because now we gotta, now we gotta win. Say, "Oh, you think I'm stupid? How about, let me talk about how you're stupid." I mean, so we wanna throw it back at the other person. All that does is ratchet it up, and then again, it's, it becomes the who's going to apologize first. That kind of is where the game starts to lead. Um, what do you ha- I was curious what you have on the book now.

Speaker 39:15 Well, I was just looking at this section in your book-

Jefferson Fisher 39:17 Yeah

Speaker 39:17 ... about dealing with difficult people.

Jefferson Fisher 39:18 Yeah. That's probably my favorite.

Speaker 39:20 Um, it's your favorite?

Jefferson Fisher 39:22 Yeah. It was also probably the most popular part of the book because it outlines a specific manual on how to handle these kinds of people. And I've developed it from these people specifically that I've had in depositions and cross-examinations in the courtroom, that very combative people that you find ways to... You think that the power is in having a direct response back at them that's gonna uppercut them. Like, smart people, people like you, Steven, people like, uh, all your listeners, we have this desire that when somebody says something ugly, we wanna send a zinger. Like, we wanna have s- we wanna craft something so poetic that it's not gonna hit them till the two days. They go like, "Oh my gosh, he totally got me." And that's just not gonna happen. But the true power is this kind of be like water mentality. It's instead of direct with them, you're just avoiding it. You're pushing it out of the way to where you're going, "What you're saying is not threatening to me." And you do that in several different ways. This would be how I'd say how to handle people that are belittling you or giving you disrespect. One, you're gonna add silence, five to seven seconds of nothing. Two, you're gonna ask them to say it again. Let's say it's insults. The insults are very direct. You're gonna ask them to repeat it. And three, you're going to just let that sit. So whatever they say. So for example, um, let's put it in terms of somebody who... Let's give it a- an example. [sighs] This would be somebody who's giving you just a straight insult. Insults are different from, uh, disrespect or s- something being rude. Insults are very direct. It's saying, somebody saying like, "You're ugly." Right? Um, how I... If I were to say, "You're ugly," how would you respond? And you're not, by the way, but let's just say.

Speaker 41:20 [laughs] It, it, so, it's so hard because it's, like, the co- context dependent. Like if you just said it-

Jefferson Fisher 41:25 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 41:26 ... I'd laugh, but-

Jefferson Fisher 41:27 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 41:27 ... if it was like... It depends on the context, doesn't it?

Jefferson Fisher 41:30 Yeah, I was like-

Speaker 41:31 For me

Jefferson Fisher 41:31 ... I was like, "Oh, that's, um, that's the shirt you went with? I guess. All right. Okay." Like that's-

Speaker 41:35 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 41:35 Uh, whenever somebody is insult, uh, insulting you-

Speaker 41:39 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 41:40 ... we have this ability to get really mad and stew on it and get angry. But best way to do it is, let's say if you told me, "You know, I, I really think you're an idiot, Jefferson." Give it a l- a little bit of silence, and I would repeat, "I'm an idiot, Jefferson." Now, it's gonna put a spotlight right back on you for you to confirm it, double down on it, or you're gonna apologize. A lot of time in arguments, people take it back. "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have said that. My head was... My, I, I got too in front of it." But if they double down on it, what, all you need to do is just thank them. "Thank you." In other words, thank you for showing me who you are. Thank you for making sure that I'm not gonna be with you, uh, anymore. This is who you are in my life. Very different from, let's say, with somebody who is belittling you, uh, patronizing you, being condescending to you. This is where, uh, it gets fun. This is one of my favorite ones. So let's, let's give this a, um, a test.

42:42 Oh, Stephen, I see that, uh, you lost some weight. That's, that's great, man. Good f- good for you. How would you typically wanna respond to that?

Speaker 42:48 Thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 42:49 Yeah. Now, if I had said something that was, um, a little bit more ugly, if it was like, "Oh, you finally lost some weight. I was wondering when you would. Yeah. Uh, that's, that's good on you," would you still say thank you again?

Speaker 43:01 No.

Jefferson Fisher 43:02 Yeah. What would you say?

Speaker 43:04 That's rude. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 43:04 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. You'd be like, "Oh, okay. That's, that's a little offensive." So here's what I would want you to do. Add silence. We're gonna have five to seven seconds of silence.

Speaker 43:14 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 43:14 And what that does is allow them their words to fall. So it's gonna, one, tell you that their words aren't threatening. You're adding that space in there for two reasons: one, to calm you down, 'cause you're gonna be using that breath we talked about. Second of all, it allows them to hear their words back because it's like they walk their words out onto a plank and now they're all alone. So if you, if you had said something ugly to me, and, um, you said something like, "Oh, well, um, Jefferson, great to be here, I guess. I, I guess we'll include you. I, I guess you just came." I- it's something that made me feel like I wasn't wanted. And if I just let that hang for a little bit and then I ask a question of intent, these are what I call questions of intent, where it says, "Did you say that to upset me? Did you say that to hurt me?" Or, "Did you mean..." If you begin your phrase with, "Did you mean?" "Did you mean for that to offend me? Did you mean for that to be rude?" I do this a lot in, uh, email correspondence or texts. When somebody sends something to you and you feel like all of a sudden it's rude, but really if you just text, "Did you mean for that to sound short?"

Speaker 44:22 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 44:22 Like, it cures up almost instantly because it's not exactly... A lot of the time people don't mean it that way. But they're gonna say something to you that is going to respond in... Most likely they're gonna say no. They're not gonna know how to handle that. They're not gonna do with that. If you can respond with, um, imagine, imagine being, like, imagine being the person who would say that, or how did you want me to feel? Or ask them, "How did you feel when you said that? How does it make you feel when you say that?"

Speaker 44:55 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 44:55 You're gonna say something ugly to me, and I give it a big pause, and I would respond, "How does it make you feel when you say that to me?" Or, "I'm surprised you said that out loud."

Speaker 45:04 Can you just tell them how it felt? Can you just say, "That was really hurtful"?

Jefferson Fisher 45:08 Yeah, you can, but that's, that's giving them what they want. You're giving them the dopamine. That's what they wanted. They said that so that it would hurt. They're saying that for- because in their mind they wanted you to have that sense of pain. They wanted to grab that from you. They wanted that sense of control. So when you say, "Oh, that hurt," often that's exactly what they wanted in that moment. Now it's gonna take them some time to realize, oh, I was really a jerk about that. But in that moment what they're wanting is that hit of dopamine from you. They're wanting to... That sense of control. So when you ask them a question... So if I were to say, "That was, that was rude," they're, you're giving them what they want. That's a direct statement. But if I ask, "Did you say that, did you say that to be rude? Did you mean for that to sound rude?" Now they have to admit. That's very different. Now they have to admit what their intent was with that. Now they have to say yes or no. Most what they... Most of the time what they do is they kind of fumble over their words and they go, "Oh, I, I, what I, I mean, what I meant to say was," or, "No, no, no, I'm sorry. What, what I meant was..." 'Cause they don't wanna, they don't wanna hurt. Now they're gonna hurt their reputation. Now they're gonna... They put themselves way too far out on a ledge, and that's much harder.

Speaker 46:18 On page 166 of your book, The Next Conversation, you say, "When you hear someone say something rude or insulting, understand that they're wanting something from you. That something is dopamine, the feel-good hormone." That something is dopamine.

Jefferson Fisher 46:36 Yeah. So when they, when somebody says something to be ugly, what they're wanting is your emotion. They're saying, "I'm unhappy. I'm only gonna be satisfied if I can make you a little bit unhappy too. That's where I'm gonna feel justified in this. I'm only gonna feel justified when I've caused you pain." And when that happens, your best defense against that is to be like a wet blanket, like be a soggy piece of bread that they can't do anything with. They can't move that. They can't control that. And what you're telling them in that moment is, it's not gonna be that fun for you.

Speaker 47:13 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 47:14 And that's the best way to handle a bully. Bully does something and you ask them, "Did you say that to hurt me?" Or, "Does it feel good for you to say that?" Or, "How did you want me to respond when you said that?" Let's say I came in and I go, "Oh, I guess we're, you know... I guess this is okay. Yeah, I guess we can talk in here. That's fine."

Speaker 47:33 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 47:34 Right? I mean, that's kind of condescending.

Speaker 47:36 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 47:36 "Yeah, wouldn't you say?" And if you had asked me in that moment, um, "Did you mean for that to sound rude?" I'd be like, "Oh, no. Oh, no. Goodness." Either, either I'm calling it out or you'd say, "Uh, that's, that's an odd thing to say out loud."

Speaker 47:51 Can you say that in all contexts? So I'm thinking if you-

Jefferson Fisher 47:52 Yeah.

Speaker 47:53 Can you say that to your, like the CEO of the company? You're an intern.

Jefferson Fisher 47:57 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 47:58 And they say something to you, and they, they look at a piece of work you've made and they go, "I mean, I guess. That's okay."

Jefferson Fisher 48:05 Yeah.

Speaker 48:06 Do you know what I mean? Does context matter here? [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 48:08 Well, I, I still think you can say it. I mean, it depends how you're going to-

Speaker 48:12 Lose your job

Jefferson Fisher 48:12 ... to put it. Yeah. You know, it just depends. Uh, yeah. Context certainly matters on at some level, but I mean, if, if it is a position of just... I think if there's a such a huge power dynamic, something like that, if you're an intern and you're like, "Look, this guy's just having a bad day. I don't think I need... This is not the time for me to choose to try and have a, um, a, a way of making him feel bad." Or if it's like, okay, I can I'll accept that or I can do better with that. There's ways that you can try and diffuse the, the rudeness. Another that I really like to, to use, this would not be in, in that context, but that's below my standard for a response. Those are really bad arguments. I've had it where really, really bad arguments where you've used, "That's below my standard for a response," and they really don't know what to say after that. A lot of the times when I'm in depositions and somebody has a snarky comment towards me, I'll ask them, "Now how, how did you want me to respond to that?" They don't know. They, they don't really have an answer. They kind of just go, "Oh, oh, I mean, what, I mean, what I meant was..." And they, and they fix it. But the signal you're sending, and the whole point of it all, is to show them that the next time you choose to do this, it's not gonna be fun. This is not what you're getting. That's the whole point of getting them to repeat a lot of the times. If I say, "I, you know what? I didn't, I didn't catch that. Can you, can you say that again?" They can't bear to say that again.

Speaker 49:38 It's like conversational boundaries or something.

Jefferson Fisher 49:40 Yeah. So one time I had a case between two sisters, and it was about as fun as it sounds. Uh, two older sisters, they're fighting over a company. Their dad had passed away. I had one sister. Another attorney friend of mine had another sister. And my client was, let's say, very level-headed. She wanted to preserve the legacy of the family and the company. The other had very different life choices, let's say. And the other one wanted to sell the company. Well, they eventually came to almost an agreement on how they were going to divvy up as, uh, buy, buy the sister out. We're at mediation, and I knew that, we knew that this other sister was... There was no telling what she was gonna, she was gonna say out of her mouth. And I had already prepared my client for if she insults, if she says anything ugly, "You're gonna ask her to say that again. All right?" So sure enough, we get at the mediation table, we have a, a opening discussion, and the sister, the, let's say the, the more fiery sister, goes on this tirade and s- and says how everything's against her. She hates everything, and then she looks at her sister and says, "And I've never, I, I, I've never loved you. You're dead to me anyway." Now that's, sister to sister, that's like terrible. Like it's, it was, it was super sad to watch. My client goes, "I need you to say that again to me." And the other sister couldn't do it. She didn't say that again because it, it puts them out on a ledge where they, they can't really... They're not gonna get the effect. It's not nearly as effective when you say it the second time.

Speaker 51:18 It's, the first time was through emotion. It was the amygdala.

Jefferson Fisher 51:20 You got it.

Speaker 51:21 And the second time was you forcing them to, into the prefrontal cortex to make like a, a logical-

Jefferson Fisher 51:26 You got it.

Speaker 51:27 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 51:27 Now, now they have to think, "Does this make sense for me to say again?"

Speaker 51:31 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 51:31 Because the first, it, it, the first effect isn't there. It's not as, uh, it's not as powerful the first time. When somebody gives you an insult and you say, "You know, I didn't, I didn't catch all that. I need you to say that again for me. Can you repeat that?" Most of the time they won't because they know, uh, now I look bad. 'Cause you, all you did by with that question is put the spotlight right back on them, and they can't, they can't take that. So they don't know what to do with it.

Speaker 51:57 It's interesting 'cause some of the things you, as you were talking, I was thinking, is this like advice for dealing with really toxic people or is this also advice just for dealing with like couples arguing? 'Cause it sounded the type of person that would not respond to, "That really hurt me"-

Jefferson Fisher 52:13 Yeah

Speaker 52:13 ... sounds like a bit of a monster.

Jefferson Fisher 52:15 Right.

Speaker 52:16 Like a narcissist.

Jefferson Fisher 52:17 When, when somebody is-

Speaker 52:19 So if, if my girlfriend turned around to me and said-

Jefferson Fisher 52:20 Yeah

Speaker 52:20 ..."That really hurt me," I'd like, it would kill me.

Jefferson Fisher 52:22 Yeah. Some people, yeah. It, let's put it in, well, one, it's because you love the person, right? And, and she loves you, and so that's, that's a little bit different. When you're dealing with people that are everyday rude at the workplace or the office, or maybe you are in a relationship with somebody who's a narcissist or somebody who is toxic, or you have that bad relationship, I think it's perfectly okay to use these kind of sentences that are gonna put somebody back. I mean, like even let's say in my own relationship, okay, I certainly use, we both use, my wife and I, the, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" I've also said something in, said something I didn't mean, and she's come back using my own things, my-

Speaker 53:05 No, that's not okay.

Jefferson Fisher 53:06 Yeah. And-

Speaker 53:06 She's using your own stuff against you.

Jefferson Fisher 53:07 Oh my gosh, yeah. And, and, and she'll say, you know, "Did you, did you say that to upset me?"

Speaker 53:12 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 53:12 But s- and you're like... But, but, and at the same time, understand that when you say those kind of things, some sense of it is giving grace to the other person of not accepting that what they meant to say or what they said was what they meant to say.

Speaker 53:27 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 53:28 Because maybe I, I, I'm giving you the chance here to clarify. If I were to say, "Did you m- did you mean for that to sound rude?" And you're like, "Oh, goodness, no. That's not what I meant." I'm giving you the, the grace of a second chance rather than just deciding to, to take it personal. We do that a lot on text message. Like somebody sends you a text and all of a sudden you're feeling like, "Oh my gosh, this is the rudest thing ever," and then you find out they didn't give it with that kind of inflection or tone at all.

Speaker 53:56 I was thinking of two things at the same time. I was thinking when we approach these difficult conversations with d- difficult people, is there a certain priming that we need to do to ourselves to make sure that we're in the right frame of mind? Because even as a podcaster, I see huge variance in my ability to like speak and articulate myself based on things that happened in the last 24 hours.

Jefferson Fisher 54:15 Yeah.

Speaker 54:15 So is there a, do you ever think about like when you've got those big cases coming up-

Jefferson Fisher 54:19 Mm-hmm

Speaker 54:19 ... how to prime yourself to make sure that your brain, your mouth, everything is working in unison and you feel like emotionally ready for that conversation?

Jefferson Fisher 54:28 Yes. So one, I, I do. One is I, and let's put it in terms of work and home because everybody listening right now, us included, we have a, a work life and then we have a home life, and sometimes it's really easy to s- switch those up, is never allow myself to be put in a conversation when I'm not ready. Especially important conversations. Like, you don't wanna wait until you have 10% of your battery left for 100% of a conversation. It's just not gonna go well when you wait till you finally put the kids to bed and you're both drained and exhausted, or you've had a really hard, stressful day, and you're mad, and, like, that's the time, when it's right before bed, that you're gonna decide to have the most im- important conversation between you two? It's never gonna go well. Like, because you're aggravated, you're agitated. You're probably hungry. And so you, you don't set yourself up for failure, and that would be don't have a conversation when you're not ready. Ways to... And this goes the same for your triggers, is part of that self-awareness is saying that out loud, meaning, "I'm gonna begin my sentence with, 'I can tell.'" Like, "I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation." Or you say something that's triggering to me, "I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell that's upsetting me." Like, when you say it out loud, when you claim it, you control it. Rather than me starting to act defensively and being defensive and saying defensive things, I say, "I can tell I'm getting defensive." Like, that, now I've said it out loud, of that feeling. I'm not becoming the feeling. I've said it.

Speaker 56:00 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:00 And so there's a big, big difference in how, when you're in those difficult con- conversations, when you want to prepare yourself, you find ways to, one, have self-awareness of I can tell when I'm, I'm ready and when I'm not ready. Second of all is if you know your triggers and you know what's going to upset you, you try and, like, curb that as best you can. When you're, when you're not in the fight or flight, and you're not gonna put yourself in the bad position. So that, that would be the biggest takeaway is don't you put, don't put yourself in position to fail.

Speaker 56:35 And I've also heard you say that when, um, you're being disrespected... I mean, this was the first of the three-

Jefferson Fisher 56:40 Yeah

Speaker 56:40 ... points you said a second ago, is to create that silence again.

Jefferson Fisher 56:43 Uh-huh.

Speaker 56:44 Why is, why does that matter? And what do you mean by that?

Jefferson Fisher 56:47 Yeah, so pauses, though they are the absence of words, they're not the absence of communication. Meaning, there's a difference in pauses between somebody saying, "I love you," and a really long pause before somebody [chuckles] says, "I love you too." Or somebody, your s- girlfriend asks, "Where were you last night?" And you take one second to respond instead of seven seconds to respond. They each say different things. So pauses are wonderful at getting the other person and yourself to fill in blanks, and when you're dealing with people who are, let's say, toxic or ugly or just not being nice, they will fill in that silence for you, and it, it does two, it does two things. It allows you, with the breath and the pause, to make sure you keep the analytical side, pushing the emotion down. You're not getting flooded. Next, it's also doing the same thing for them. When I add silence, I am making you almost repeat your words back in your head, and often you've been in those arguments where somebody already apologizes for what they said without you having to say anything. You've seen it too on a text. Somebody says something ugly in a text, and you don't respond for a few hours. Most often they will reply back, at least in my world, they'll say like, "I shouldn't have said that," or they'll try and reframe it, or they'll edit the text. Y- y- now you have the benefit of, uh, hindsight, when, oh, that didn't, that didn't sound good, or they'll twist their word again to, to fix it. So, like, for example, I see this a lot with liars, people who, who lie on s- the stand, and in litigation, you always have people lie, even in deposition. Just, it's just part of it. You don't really get surprised by it. But silence is the number one, like, killer of liars because they have conversations in their head for you. So if you were gonna tell me a lie, for example, and instead of me going, "That's not true. That's not true," and then you're going to... It's like you like that. You go, "Oh, okay, good, they're engaged. Now I can start to manipulate the narrative." And you'll tell a lie, and then it forces me to try and fix it. "No, no, no, that's not true. Remember you did this and you did this?" And you're trying to get around them. That's exactly what the liar is wanting. The more engaged, the more conversation, the more believable it feels to you. So then you start to doubt yourself. You're like, "Oh, maybe they did." Silence, like, just destroys them. So if you were to tell me a lie and I waited five to seven seconds and I repeated the question to you, or I repeated your answer. Let's say I know that you were at the store last night, and you're trying to lie to me and say, "No, I was home last night." And let's say I think you were up to no good at the store. And you go, uh, just say, "Jefferson, I was at the store last night."

Speaker 59:47 I was, um, I was at the store last night at 7/11.

Jefferson Fisher 59:53 At the store last night at the 7/11.

Speaker 59:58 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:03 I'm gonna come back to, to this conversation in a bit.

Speaker 1:00:06 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:07 Right? So all of a sudden the liar's like, "Oh, no, no, no, don't, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that." Like, oh, now you're, now you're thinking about it. Now you're thinking about it.

Speaker 1:00:14 Like, you, you know I was at the strip club. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:16 Y- yeah, yeah. It's like I, I know you weren't where you, where you say. So if you can say, and you add in time, like, "Um, I wanna... I'll come back to this conversation," or if I were to say, "Something feels off," they don't like that. The liars don't like that at all because they want you engaged. They want more conversation. So when you slow it down and you go... It's not even saying, "I don't believe you." Don't say that. That's, that's getting them, that's more engaged in conversation. But when you slow it down and get quieter, of "I'm thinking. I'm just thinking-" Liars will start to have the conversation in their head with you. They'll start to say things like, "I mean, what, what do you, I mean, what, what do you..." Let's put myself in your position.

Speaker 1:01:01 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:01 If you said you were at the store and I didn't really believe you, you'd be like, "I mean, where, where do you think I was? I mean, why, why would I be there?" Like they start to try and get into your head so that they can fix it. They'll try to twist the narrative to, to place the pieces in a way of, they're not gonna fill in every piece of the puzzle, the jigsaw puzzle, but just enough that hopefully you get the rest of the picture. But silence, pauses, that's where your real power is because they can't do anything with it, and it shows that you're the one in control and they're the ones that are not.

Speaker 1:01:31 And I guess you want, if you're lying in that context, you want certainty that the other person believes you.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:36 Yes.

Speaker 1:01:37 So the issue with the big pause you gave is if I was at the strip club last night, I now don't have certainty that you believe what I'm saying, so I need to like keep going-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:48 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:01:48 ... until I can convince you-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:49 Yes

Speaker 1:01:50 ... that I was at, you know, the 7-Eleven. So I, now, now I need to push back on you and say, "What, what do you mean?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:55 Exactly.

Speaker 1:01:55 "W- w- why, why are you asking this?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:56 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That's right.

Speaker 1:01:57 "Why are you asking me this?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:01:59 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:59 You're, you're wanting more.

Speaker 1:02:00 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:00 Give me, give me a conversation. We need conversation.

Speaker 1:02:02 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:02 I need it now.

Speaker 1:02:02 'Cause the uncertainty is not good to deal with.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:04 No. Oh, no.

Speaker 1:02:04 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:04 And they get in their head about it. That... But it's this, that same concept we talked about of people who tell the truth, they don't... They have all the patience in the world. If, uh, if you r- really were at the store and I was like, "Um, I need to think about this for a minute," you'd be like, "Okay." And you know, it, it wouldn't bother you because the, those that have told the truth, they have, they have nothing to hide. If you need to think on it, you... Something feels off, "Okay. Well, I'm, I'm here to talk about it, but that's, that's where I was."

Speaker 1:02:34 And you do know, you know that, like regardless if they think about it or regardless of whatever they do next, I know where I fucking was.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:40 E- yeah.

Speaker 1:02:40 So you're only gonna unco- uncover evidence-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:42 Yes

Speaker 1:02:42 ... that I was at the 7-Eleven last night.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:44 That's exactly right.

Speaker 1:02:44 You're gonna look at my bank statements, you're gonna see I was at the 7-Eleven last night.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:47 Yep. Yep.

Speaker 1:02:47 So there's a certain confidence that comes with that where you don't need to prove yourself.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:50 Yeah, it's a relief. It's a confidence of going, "No, I, I know, I know exactly where I am." It's that, that inner confidence we talked about at the very beginning. But the people who don't tell the truth, oh, I mean, I've, I, I can't... If I had a dollar for every time I've seen it or I've asked somebody the question back and they said, um... Usually it's texting while they drive, they say, "I never text. I never text when I drive." Let's say I asked, uh, somebody, you asked me the question, you know, um... Here, we'll run it through. So ask me the question, were you texting while you were driving that day?

Speaker 1:03:20 Were you texting while you were driving that day?

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:22 No. I never text. Never text when I drive. Now notice I said a big word, I said never. Never is an extreme. Extremes are a dead giveaway that they're usually not telling the truth. Everybody texts when they drive at some point in time, even in your car. Never, an always or never, it's, it's always or never true. So that's a big one. Second of all, I answered really quickly. I didn't [inhales] breathe and really think about it and try and actually show you that I was trying to remember in time. Gave you a really immediate response.

Speaker 1:03:53 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:53 So, um, what you're gonna do, we're gonna replay it again. I'm gonna say same exact thing, and I'm gonna ask you to give me about five seconds of time, and then I want you to repeat what I said slower. Cool? So s- ask me if I was, um, if I was, um, texting while I was driving that day.

Speaker 1:04:14 Were you texting while you were driving that day?

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:16 No. No. [laughs] Never. I, I never text when I drive.

Speaker 1:04:23 You never text when you drive.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:26 [laughs] So even that I didn't, I didn't even like that.

Speaker 1:04:28 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:28 So what they'll do most often is they'll even go, "Well, I mean, m- I mean, me- I mean, sometimes I do," 'cause now they, you just hinge on that word never.

Speaker 1:04:36 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:36 So now they know, oh, that's a risk word.

Speaker 1:04:38 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:38 They'll, and they'll kinda come out of it and go, "I mean, I mean, sometimes I do. I mean, maybe, but, but, but hardly, hardly ever. Hardly ever." When that happens, what you typically want to do is give them an out. Now they've, they've put themselves into a corner, and now they're looking for an out. And a way to do that is go, "If you were texting, it's, it's okay."

1:04:56 When someone is, quote-unquote, "attacking me" or saying nasty things about me that I don't believe are true, or maybe it's just I don't like their wor- way they're saying it, and I don't want it to penetrate-

1:05:08 Yeah

1:05:08 ... my heart and my soul-

1:05:10 Yes. Yeah

1:05:10 ... and be reactive and defensive-

1:05:12 Right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah

1:05:13 ... and, uh, raging and frustrated and, uh, all these things.

1:05:16 When the, when the, when the brow goes like this.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:17 Yeah, exactly. One of the psychological or therapeutic, uh, strategies that I've learned is to imagine either a, a field, an energetic field around me that I can see it, but then it bounces off-

1:05:36 Okay

1:05:36 ... the words.

1:05:37 Yeah.

1:05:37 The intention-

1:05:38 Yeah

1:05:38 ... the energy. It comes and then boink, it just goes around me and-

1:05:41 Right

1:05:42 ... like water off a duck.

1:05:43 I feel like there's a Star Wars reference, but yes.

1:05:44 Yeah, exactly.

1:05:45 That's exactly right. Yeah.

1:05:46 Or what I'll do is I will separate the ego from the self, and I'll have the ego over here next to me psychologically.

1:05:57 Yeah.

1:05:57 And an image of it, the ego of me here.

1:06:00 Yeah.

1:06:00 And it's like, oh, they're just speaking to the ego.

1:06:02 Yeah, the detachment.

1:06:03 They're just, oh, they're speaking over here.

1:06:05 Right.

1:06:05 They're not actually speaking to me.

1:06:07 Yeah.

1:06:07 They might be looking at me, but it's just, brr, redirecting-

1:06:09 Right

1:06:10 ... right here.

1:06:10 Right.

1:06:10 And, oh, this doesn't affect me.

1:06:12 Yeah. They're talking to that guy.

1:06:13 It just... Yeah. And I saw, um, I think I saw, I think it was Salma Hayek one time talk about this. Um, as she was giving the example somewhere online about how, you know, if someone spoke to you really poorly in Spanish and you don't speak Spanish, you're not gonna get defensive.

1:06:31 Right.

1:06:32 You're just going to be like, "Well, okay. I have no clue-

1:06:34 [laughs]

1:06:34 ... what this crazy person's saying to me."

1:06:37 Yeah.

1:06:37 Um, okay, so just act like it's a different language.

1:06:40 Right.

1:06:40 At least it's different ways of like separating yourself from the hurt-

1:06:44 Yeah, I like that too

1:06:44 ... or the, the potential pain.

1:06:47 Yes.

1:06:47 What have you learned to support yourself psychologically and emotionally and spiritually-

1:06:53 Yeah

1:06:54 ... when this feeling of panic or stress comes your way?

Speaker 1:06:59 Or when potential attacks come your way emotionally

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:02 So very similar to yours, I, in my mind, I visually have a trash can next to me.

Speaker 1:07:08 Oh, okay.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:09 All right? And I can see it. It's one of those big, huge gallon ones.

Speaker 1:07:12 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:12 It's just a black-

Speaker 1:07:13 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:13 ... shiny. It's, yeah-

Speaker 1:07:15 We'll put it out there

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:15 ... you got it. Yeah. And I see what they're, they're saying it's just a chute. So I can see the words coming, and I'm sifting-

Speaker 1:07:25 Uh

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:25 ... because the issue they're telling me is not the real issue. And so if I hear something that's, uh, offensive, that's not nice, I just, "Okay, that's trash. Let me just... I'm just..." I, in my mind, I grab it with my right hand, lift up, and throw it.

Speaker 1:07:40 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:40 Like that's-

Speaker 1:07:41 That's cool

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:41 ... that's what I'll do with my, with my thoughts. And I'm sifting to where if they might have led with something that was snarky, which our inclination is to grab onto that-

Speaker 1:07:54 Yeah, feels frustrated, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:54 ... and send it back to them. Yeah, send it back and be-

Speaker 1:07:56 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:56 ... "Oh, I just, I got a good one coming." Instead-

Speaker 1:07:59 Ving, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:59 ... yeah, you got it. Instead, if I throw that one away, if I just trash it, and then I found the one word that they said at the very end, towards the end, and that was, that was the one word, and then if I focus on that word, then it all starts to kind of crumble. But that's... I just imagine a trash can.

Speaker 1:08:20 Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win? Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody, or is that you literally mean that, don't try to win an argument?

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:35 I literally mean that. If you go into it always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge, uh, and the other side's arguing, again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a, a law that is applying to this, and they just... I might have more precedent than the other person, and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better. But you get into, especially in the courtroom, this feeling of, "Well, I have to win a lot of trials." Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you wanna spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. Um, but the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now, that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument, it's, it's lying to you. Because what you're gonna do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship. You're gonna lose their respect. They're gonna close themself off from you. You're gonna be less approachable. You're gonna lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument.

Speaker 1:09:46 Hmm. What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words. Where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend, friend, boss, and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of, wrestle's the wrong word, but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a convers- You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the-

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:31 Yeah

Speaker 1:10:31 ... people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not. They're in charge, you're not. They're picking the restaurant, you're not.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:39 Mm.

Speaker 1:10:39 Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I, I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:51 Let's split the dynamic, too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because th- th- this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're gonna do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not gonna push back 'cause they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, "Okay. Noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask." This ability to kind of be in the, in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. "Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, uh, Ed? Ed's great. Yeah, you need to..." And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, uh, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas, or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation, typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet, and when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.

Speaker 1:12:38 You say that about leaders, too. It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader, correct?

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:52 Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room ... for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, "Oh, I'm captain of the ship, and everybody should know it. Oh, who do you think you're talking to?" And they need to correct and, and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the, the best leaders have a calm energy about them. When they're on the floor of whatever's happening, instead of this erratic, you know, "What's going on? Okay, we need to do this," and, and they start shouting and, and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, "Okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next?" Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward? So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.

Speaker 1:14:14 You have these, um, powerful life lessons, okay, in the book for our communication. I wanna go through some of them. Now, some of them you've, you kinda touched on already, but I, I'd love to go through some of these bit by bit to really give practical take-homes for people.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:33 Yeah.

Speaker 1:14:33 Okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:37 Right.

Speaker 1:14:38 Why?

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:40 It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face. It, it... Silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I wanna talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? It, it... The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you, and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words. I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have, and it's wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations. You use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep, and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to s- fix it. I just need to sit with you.

Speaker 1:15:56 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:56 And in that silence, holding that with... The, the therapy world would say holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you. I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything.

Speaker 1:16:08 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:08 Now, let's say you're saying something mean to me, and you say something that really hurts, and rather than responding, I just say nothing. Um, that sends another message. That's another option that I get to have, and now you have to hear those words echo back, and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool.

Speaker 1:16:29 Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence?

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:33 You can weaponize it.

Speaker 1:16:34 Uh-

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:34 Yeah, so you could... Uh, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting-

Speaker 1:16:37 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:37 ... for no reason. Yeah, uh, stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a, as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to... I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff where it's you have to protect yourself. I'm talking you're some- you're dealing with somebody who's a tox- toxic personality, and they just go silent on you and as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. Not until you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Can you please come back to me?" will they, you know, graciously-

Speaker 1:17:09 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:09 ... in their mercy go, "Yes, I guess you can talk to me again." So there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far, as with anything.

Speaker 1:17:18 Yeah. It kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on. One was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:26 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:17:26 Before you start reacting and just blurting out words-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:29 Right

Speaker 1:17:30 ... you're saying t- that first word is your breath.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:33 Right.

Speaker 1:17:33 Okay? So your... What, is that an inhale?

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:35 Yeah, so it's, um, you would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation, where-

Speaker 1:17:41 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:41 ... it's about three seconds in through your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, y- we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. And I'm not, not talking about the sigh of, like, what my five-year-old would do of, like, "Ugh." Like, not, not that type of-

Speaker 1:17:57 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:57 ... [laughs] not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently. Anytime right before you say something that you need to catch a moment or if somebody's saying something that's, you can tell you're, it's, you don't like, and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like, and what happens? You... Our bodies go , like, we, we, everything we don't like it, we kinda start to seize up.

Speaker 1:18:22 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:22 We start, we take a big breath. We're like, "Okay, I don't... I'm, I'm, I don't... I gotta, I gotta get ready," 'cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words.

Speaker 1:18:30 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:30 And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell.

Speaker 1:18:37 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:37 Often, it, it decreases communication. It's the same way of, you know how, uh, at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to, like, turn down the music so you can... You're like, "Let me turn down this music so I can see"? It's kind of that same mentality-

Speaker 1:18:53 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:53 ... of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.

Speaker 1:18:56 Yeah, it's, it's this whole we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that- ... thing that you didn't like, and if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable-

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:08 Yes

Speaker 1:19:08 ... right? You're changing the state of your nervous system, so everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:16 Right.

Speaker 1:19:16 So of course the next words you say are gonna come out with a certain energy.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:21 Got it.

Speaker 1:19:21 So I love that sort of idea that you make it... And y- you know, that whole section that, in, in that chapter, you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:38 Yeah, abso- and I'm happy to do it right now if you wanna work through it.

Speaker 1:19:40 Okay. All right. Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:41 So if you're listening right now, let's, let's, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath, and it's a breath that you can use, and nobody's really gonna know that you're doing it. It's, there's nothing special. It's just the ch- it's the choice to be intentional with your breath, and let's do it together. So it's all gonna be through your nose, and it's gonna be a double inhale, meaning we're gonna inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're gonna go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. Now, just listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit.

Speaker 1:20:12 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:12 You're gonna feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go-to when somebody's saying something you don't like or, uh, you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Rangan, to continue to do the conversational breath, and I'm gonna continue to say some things to you. So Rangan, I, yes, I understand you have a podcast, and yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be... These lights, have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these, these microphones. Now, see, as you're talking to me right now, now, see, I don't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so any time somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.

Speaker 1:20:59 Yeah, it's, it's amazing 'cause you're, you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy of being in the car again-

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:06 Yeah

Speaker 1:21:07 ... um, if your car is going fast down the street, you're not gonna be able to take everything in, right? Because everything's going by quickly.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:15 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:21:16 If you slow down your car and go down the street, you can suddenly see everything clearly. I saw that number, I saw that number. You know, that's what's going. There's a cat coming. Whatever it might be, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:24 Right.

Speaker 1:21:24 So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly in a conversation-

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:32 Yes

Speaker 1:21:33 ... especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to-

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:36 Right

Speaker 1:21:37 ... if you're able to slow things down-

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:40 Yes

Speaker 1:21:41 ... you're gonna be more present. You're gonna, you know, you're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:50 Exactly. Time has a way of sifting out priority. We all know we've had these moments in conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the cafe. The next day, you know what?

Speaker 1:22:04 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:04 That conversation really didn't matter all that much.

Speaker 1:22:06 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:07 Or a week goes by and you go, "Why did I ever react that way?"

Speaker 1:22:10 But in the moment you felt that it did.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:12 Uh, in the moment it was everything. And then, or you get that email. You re- read that email at work, and you wanna... It gets you all worked up, and you're ready to send that, that nasty response back. But something happens, and you go, "You, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put this down." You read it again the next day. You go, "That's not even worth my response."

Speaker 1:22:30 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:31 Yeah.

Speaker 1:22:31 That, that's the power of silence-

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:33 Absolutely

Speaker 1:22:33 ... and pause, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:34 Yes.

Speaker 1:22:35 It's kind of interesting. You are teaching people how to have better conversations, but at the same time, I would imagine, and I think you've hinted at this already, that you've always been pretty good at communicating.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:49 Yes.

Speaker 1:22:49 Yeah. Okay. I would probably say a similar thing about myself. I think as a doctor, I feel that's always been one of my strengths with my patients is my ability to really listen, pay attention, and then communicate effectively with them. I don't think I was taught how to do that.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:07 Mm.

Speaker 1:23:07 Maybe I picked it up from the people around me. But although I feel I was intuitively quite a good communicator, I feel I've got better over the years, okay? So I feel it's a skill that although I was pretty good at, I think I've got better at it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:23 Mm.

Speaker 1:23:24 Now, what has helped me get better at it? I think if I think about my marriage, you know, I'm, as we're having this conversation, I'm almost... It's almost 18 years since I was married. Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:37 Congratulations.

Speaker 1:23:38 Since I got married.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:38 Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:39 Yeah, and, you know, our marriage is fantastic, and I think one of the things that has made it more fantastic now than maybe in the early days is collectively our ability to communicate as a couple has got better.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:54 Mm.

Speaker 1:23:55 And certainly on a personal level, I feel I've really, um, learnt some new skills about how to communicate better within my relationship. But I also believe that this podcast has helped me become a better communicator. Okay? So, um, as you know, this is a long form podcast, okay? It's long form intentionally. I'm not interested in quick, fancy sound bites. I want deep, meaningful conversations with people that I'm curious about.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:25 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:25 That's always been the name of the game on this show, and it continues to be today. And every summer I stop the podcast for six weeks. Okay? It's the children are on summer holidays. My wife is the producer of the podcast. And so for us it's really important to have some time away from this show even though the whole world is saying, "You can't stop. You need to keep going." That's a separate matter, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:48 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:48 But we take a break every summer. And every summer whilst I'm on break, I reflect on what can I improve? What can I do differently? How can I make the show even better? You know, how can I become a better communicator? And a few years ago, the insight I had over the summer break was to embrace silence more. Right? So you talk in your book about how silence can be a superpower, and I would say maybe three or four summers ago, I came back and intentionally started to utilize silence much more, and I think that's enhanced the quality of the conversations. And so my thinking was very much, "Ron, you don't have to rush." Right? "There's, there's no time pressure here. You've got all the time in the world." In a natural conversation, because I never regard these as interviews, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:42 Yeah.

Speaker 1:25:42 If you want an interview, I'm the wrong podcast, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:45 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:25:45 These are all about conversations. And I realized that, well, in real-life conversation, there are sometimes pauses. Sometimes the next thing to say isn't there at the tip of your tongue. Sometimes you have to kind of pause and reflect and let what was just said land. You also have to trust yourself, right? You go, "Okay, I don't need to think about the next thing I'm gonna say. I can just pay attention to what Jefferson is saying. And then when he finishes, I need to trust that the right thing to come next will come out of my mouth," right? So that's rather long-winded of me trying to say that when I [laughs] read you write about silence being a superpower, I thought, "I love that," because I feel that's one of the things that I've really embraced on this show, and I think it's one of the things that has really improved the quality of conversations on this show.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:39 I think that's spot on. For, for your listeners, I w- I would ask two questions. Number one, have you ever really given thought to how you're communicating, h- how, how your voice is representing you? Not just how you sound, that's personal to you, but the words that you choose. More than likely, you've spent some amount of money on a better health. Maybe you've changed a diet. Maybe you've read some books. Maybe you've gone to some conference. W- whatever. We invest a lot in a lot of things. But have you ever actually invested in the thing you do every day, and that is getting disciplined about how you communicate, actually asking yourself how do you communicate? That's question number one. Question number two is why are you rushing? Why are you rushing? I feel like we rush all the time. I mean, I know I rush my, my son sometimes. I'm like, "All right, come on. Get your shoes on. Come on, get your shoes on. We gotta go." To what? A kid's birthday party that, uh, y- you don't have to be on time for. I mean, it's, it's not the end of the world. Why do we f- always feel like we have to rush, rush, rush? There is something so beautiful about having a conversation with your best friend that has no time constraints-

Speaker 1:28:05 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:06 ... that has no rush. And you can say something and just like you said, you're able to just sit with it, land, let their words sit, and just appreciate the moment that you're able to connect with someone. And beautiful, wonderful things happen when you simply slow down the conversation. And that's exactly, if you wanna have better conversation, you slow it down. If you want to deal with difficult conversation, if you're really worried about a conversation you're about to have, slow it down. I promise you, you're gonna end up having a better outcome.

Speaker 1:28:40 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:41 If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there