3 Phrases That Lower Someone’s Defenses

1. 0:00 – 1:01

   Defensiveness as the peace-killer: why approach matters most

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      Defensiveness is the number one killer of your peace, of resolution when it comes to fights and arguments. How do you keep somebody from getting defensive? You might say, "Jefferson, there's no way. That's not a thing. We can't... We can't happen." I say differently, and today in this episode, I'm gonna show you how. Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Wherever you're listening, please do me a favor, and on whatever platform you're listening, find that button that says Subscribe, whether it's YouTube or Spotify or Apple, it does not matter. If you don't mind pressing Subscribe, that would mean a whole lot to me, and it doesn't cost you a dime. Also, if you're watching this, you might be seeing a little different angle. It's because I have this little, like, magnetic stand that goes on my windshield, but it requires a magnetic piece on the back of my phone, and it's gone. And I have no idea where it went, so there's no magnet, so I'm putting you here. All I can think of it was my kids. My kids, those rascally

2. 1:01 – 3:32

   The airplane landing metaphor: avoid the “acute angle” in hard conversations

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:01

      kids took it. That's, that's all I'm thinking of. But anyway, that's not gonna stop me from talking to you. All right. How do you keep somebody from getting defensive? There are some things I first want you to think about before we start working into the tools, and the word of the day is approach. What is your approach? You can talk about it in golf. You can talk about it in gymnastics. You can talk about it in lots of different sports and mentalities of, uh, uh, chess to anything else. What is your mental approach when you go into this conversation? Because it's really easy, really easy, really tempting that when you say something, we don't really s- think about the approach of how we said it. We only start to get really upset about whether that other person gets defensive or not. And as soon as they get defensive, we're like, "Ah, they're getting defensive. It's all their fault. They're so defensive," without asking for a moment of what is our approach. And I need you to think about a plane for a second. A plane. When a plane approaches, right, and it's gonna land, it's on, uh, it's on its approach, right? What does it do right before it touches the ground? It's almost what? Even with it. It comes down low, right? Not at a steep angle, and it starts to level out and continue to coast until what? It can match, be parallel with the ground and touch down. The plane does not come at a 45, 75-degree angle. Heaven forbid, a 90-degree angle means it's just dropping out of the sky and just, bam, lan- landing there. That's... You're gonna crash every time. So here, what are we talking about? We're talking about angles for a second. That means we're talking about approach. Here's the takeaway. You have to avoid the acute angle. If you don't want this person to get defensive, and you know that they have a tendency of getting defensive, you have to avoid the acute angle, meaning that, that the sharper you come down there, the sharper you come down, the, the, the greater the chance is that the other person is going to get defensive. And maybe some of you math people are like, "Oh, Jefferson, that's actually not acute. That's obtuse." I don't... Don't do that to me. You know what I'm talking about. Let's just go. Let's go. Don't get defensive with me. [laughs] All right. So approach. Approach is the word of the day, meaning when somebody gets defensive with you, what I need you to first think of is, "Okay, I, I need to, to first take

3. 3:32 – 4:03

   Why people react: blaming their defensiveness vs. auditing your wording

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:32

      a moment to retool how I approach that question." Because how you approach it can mean all the difference if that person's gonna be receptive to what you're saying and open, or if they're gonna clam up, and their spears are gonna be out, and they're gonna be sharp, and they're ready for the battle because they feel like you're being defensive. What do I mean by that? Let's, let's take number one. Number one is rather than focusing on how poorly and defensive they are, I need you to

4. 4:03 – 6:36

   Phrase #1: Drop “you always/you never/you don’t care” (stop telling people what they feel)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:03

      listen to the difference of, of these two things. Listen to the difference. This is... I'm, I'm... I wanna illustrate this first. I want you to put yourself... You and I are in an argument, okay? Bam. You're welcome. You and I are in an argument right now, and it could be about, I don't know, let's say how often you're around in the office or at home or whatever. Let's just say how often you're around. And I use phrases like this. I say, "You're never, you're never here. You're always looking to be gone. Um, you, you just don't care. You know, you, you don't, you don't care to be here. You don't, you, you don't want to be here," right? You hear, you hear what I'm saying? How are you going to feel about this? How are you gonna f- H-How are you feeling hearing that? Are you going, "Well, that, yep, that's true, Jefferson. I really don't want to be here. No, I really don't care. Well, you, you got me nailed. I, I, I don't want to"? Of course you're not. Of course you're not gonna think that. You're, you're going to be like, "Hey, hold up. Um, that's, that's not right." And just because you have an opinion of, "Hey, that's not right," that doesn't necessarily in that moment feel like you're being defensive. But to them, to, to me in this, this scenario, I'm gonna be like, "Oh, how defensive are you by disagreeing with me?" You see the convolution here? So is convolution a word? Let's make it a word. Number one, avoid telling people what they want and don't want and feel and don't feel. If you don't want them to get defensive, don't tell them what they want or what they don't want and what they feel and they don't feel. Remove that language. Well, I'm gonna call this as permanent language, meaning there's a permanency about it, where you're glossing with a broad brush of deciding for them what they think about things, what they want about things, and how they feel about things. If you're approaching it from that acute, sharp angle, which who wants to be told what they want, think and feel? You're, you're gonna be having a really hard landing every single time. That's a bad approach. So instead, instead of telling them, beginning with your, your words. So what could this look like? I want you to think if you've been using this in any of your arguments or your big conversation where you say something as simple of, you know, "You don't, you don't care. You don't care," or, um, "You never," or,

5. 6:36 – 8:08

   Phrase #1 replacement: the “When you…, I feel…” framework (temporary, specific, softer)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:36

      "You always." Right? You hear those absolutes? You, you never, you always. Where you're saying that whatever you're telling them is a permanent nature. Permanent nature rather than it being temporary. Okay. Instead of that, I need you to soften the approach, and I'll give you a really easy one. Easy, easy, easy, simple, simple, simple method, and it is when you, I feel. All right? You get to say the same thing. It's the approach. You can say all the same stuff. It's, it's just your approach. Hear what I'm saying. Instead of, "You know what? I... You, you just don't care. You, you don't, you don't really care to be here. You don't wanna be here," versus, "When you don't show up on time, when you look for ways to avoid, when you choose to do other things than be here with me, I feel as though you don't care." You hear the difference? When you, I feel. Use that framework. It is simple. It is one of the most basic I could teach. When you, I feel, rather than going straight to, "I know that you don't. I know you always." When you do this, I feel why. Much softer parallel approach that they're not gonna get mad

6. 8:08 – 10:09

   Sponsor break: AG1 (nutrition, convenience, travel)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:08

      about. Why? Because you're saying, "When you do this, I feel this way." You see? It's a, it's a temporary state rather than a permanent one of saying you, you never, you always, you don't care. Big, big difference. Okay? So we're gonna soften our approach by not using permanent statements, but rather a framework of when you, I feel. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about AG1. Here in my world, school has finally started up and going, which is great that my wife and I finally have some time to get things done. It's also where we have to get a lot of things done. What makes it easier and what we eat and make sure we fill in those nutritional gaps is AG1. It comes in a little bitty packet that we can, I can tear off, put in some water, shake it up, mix it up, and I'm gonna know that I'm gonna get energy, I'm gonna feel good, immune health, good gut health, uh, good brain health, good mood. It's something that I can digest easy, quick, and fill a lot of gaps that I know I'm really not gonna get into when we're going fast pace and I'm not having a big, huge lunch or not doing nearly as good of what I want to do for my diet day to day. AG1 is where it's at. I definitely take these as a pack when we're traveling, and it helps a whole lot. And one of the things I really love about AG1 is that they back it all up. It's all clinical trials, AG1 Next Gen. It's good stuff. They really put a whole lot of effort to make sure that what they're putting into your body is something that is best as it could possibly be, and I believe it's the gold standard of what you're looking for in good nutrition. Right now, you can go to drinkag1.com/jefferson, and they say you can get a free Morning Person hat. So in case you're not that morning person, but you still want to be a morning person, just put on this hat. Free AG1 Flavor Sampler in your Welcome Pack with your first AG1 subscription. I need to get me this Morning Person hat. I'm gonna record the next episode in that. It's an $82 value. That's drinkag1.com/jefferson. And now, let's keep going. Number two, this is going to sound a little funky, but it works, okay?

7. 10:09 – 10:40

   Phrase #2: “I agree…”—agree with the importance, not necessarily the details

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:09

      And it's, and it's honest. I need you to agree with what they're saying. We're gonna talk about... And we've, we've talked about in other episodes about this idea of affirmation, of affirming that feeling. Here in this argument, that's not really the context for it. So instead, I'm gonna push it more towards agree with what they're saying. Now, I do not mean agree with the statement itself. So if, uh,

8. 10:40 – 12:43

   Clarifier: defensiveness isn’t the same as disagreement (it’s posture)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:40

      you wanna say something in response to what they've said, and you want to in some way feel like you're about to say something defensive because you're about to disagree with them. And mind you, defensiveness does not equal disagreement. Like, defensive has nothing to do about whether or not you agree or disagree. It's, it's the posture that you're taking, because there's plenty of people that agree with what you're saying. They're just, they're doing it from a, a very defensive posture and position. So what we're gonna do is agree with what they're saying, but rather than the micro, I want you to think macro. And what I mean by that is instead of getting into the weeds of something that you really don't care to argue about, but you know this is something that is important to them, rather than getting them defensive, more in- defensive about it, all you need to say is, "Well, I agree. That's worth talking about. I agree that's a perspective. I agree that's a perspective." See what I'm saying? Th- they're just hearing, "I agree." I agree that's worth... I, I, I agree that that's a subject that's important. I, I agree that that's an important subject. I agree that this is something we should talk about. I agree that this is worth the discussion. I agree this is worth the conversation, right? You hear how just by saying that, I'm not getting this defensiveness of saying, "Ah, I don't want to talk about that. Ah, that's stupid." Why, why would we even share? Why would we even talk about this? I'm not-- I don't even wanna go there. They're gonna get defensive in the fact that they're offering information that you are shutting down and slamming down. Again, that's going to produce a very defensive result because they feel like they're not being heard, not being understood, and they're gonna continue to fight you until they feel in some way with somebody who's going to understand them more than you are. When you can say something as simple as, "I agree," you know, "I agree this is worth talking about. I agree this is worth the conversation," it

9. 12:43 – 17:15

   Phrase #3: Turn commands into shared questions (“Can we…?”)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher12:43

      has a way of keeping people from getting defensive because they feel like not only do you agree in some sense of affirming what they're feeling, that's a, that's what they're getting inside, but also they feel like they're being understood. That's all that people are, are really wanting when it comes down to it. Number three, what I want to harp on is when instead of asking questions, we make statements. That's a problem. So what's the advice? Rather than turn... Uh, the advice is turn statements into questions and make it a we thing. All right? Make it a we thing. Instead of saying, "Look, I need you to calm down," right? Big problem there because you just said, "I need you," right? "You need to calm it down. You need to... Hey, you need to calm it down." Is that gonna work? You need to do whatever. Nobody... This, this matches what we said in, in number one. Nobody wants to be told what to do or what they need. "You know what? You need a nap. You know what? You just need to take a, take a walk. You need a timeout." Who wants to hear that? Okay. Whenever you go into those statements of, "You need to lower your voice," the other person's gonna get defensive because they don't want to be told what they need or what they, they should be doing. Instead, turn it into a question and make it a we thing. So what I like to say is just flip it and make it a we. [chuckles] Oh, I think I need to, I need to re- rework that phrasing. Um, that's funny. So we're gonna turn it into a question and make it, make it an us thing. Maybe that's better. A we thing, an us thing. So here's what it sounds like. Instead of, "You need to lower your voice," it's, "Can we lower our, our, our voice in this discussion?" I'm making it a together thing instead of a just to them thing, as if I haven't also been lowering... I'll als- as if I also haven't been raising my voice the whole time, as if I have been totally free of any wrongdoing and it's all them. If I make it a we thing and ask a question, then they don't get defensive. "Hey, can we, can we take this step by step?" Instead of telling them, "You need to break this down and, and go step by step with this for me." That's, that's me giving them instruction. People do not like instruction in these very sensitive conversations of telling them again what they should do and what they should not do, what they should want, what they should not want, what they need, what they don't need. Okay? That's, that's all me trying to control you, and if the other person feels controlled, good luck because they're gonna get defensive about it every time. Uh, we don't, we don't, we don't like that. We will get very defensive, not only of our ideas, as we talked about in step two, but also of you trying to control me. So I'm gonna wanna protect things that are my autonomy. I'm gonna wanna protect things that are my thoughts or my words. Feels like this is mine. You can't take this from me. So when we use language that are statements, very pointed, remember, very harsh, acute approach statements, people are gonna get defensive. So how do you avoid that? Turn the statements into questions and make it a shared us thing. So instead of, "Well, you need to figure that out," it's, "Hey, can we, over the next few weeks, can we, can we try and figure that out?" Apply it to both of you. So much can be avoided in hard conversations when you make it about both of you. That way they don't feel alone. They don't feel like they're the bad actor. That way they don't feel like y- you're saying, "I have everything figured out and I'm blameless, and you're the problem there." They're not gonna, they're not gonna respond to that very effectively. And why would they? Why would they? So when it comes to keeping people defensive, there are true real things that you can do that are going to lower the chances of people getting defensive. You might say, "Jefferson, look, you don't know what I'm dealing with, what I'm living with. This person always gets defensive no matter what I do. They always get defensive." Maybe so. I don't know them, right? So you're gonna have to make that, that decision for yourself. What I can tell you, right, is that you are gonna significantly, significantly decrease the chances of them getting defensive if you follow

10. 17:15 – 20:49

    Why this works: autonomy alarms, control language, and emotional ownership

    1. JFJefferson Fisher17:15

       exactly what I'm telling you in this episode, and that is, one, you have to soften the approach. Take care to consider how you're asking and how you're saying it. Big difference when you're trying to control them or trying to tell them what they should be doing or how they feel or what they want. When you do that, you're, you're, you're setting off alarms on their autonomy button, okay? It's like, "Hold up. You don't, you don't get to decide for me w- what I'm, what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling." For example, have you ever told somebody, you go, "Man, you just, like, you just seem, like, really grumpy right now." Do they ever go, "Yeah, I'm grumpy"? No. Most likely they're gonna go, "No, I'm not grumpy. I'm just, uh, annoyed by this." See, they don't even want you to decide what feeling they're feeling. You hear me? They don't even want that because that, that, that is pushing in on my autonomy button of I-- let me decide how I want to feel. That's what they're, that's what they're thinking, okay? That's how they're feeling. And so when you use the when you, I feel method, or you find ways to say, "This is... Hey, I, I agree on X, Y, and Z. I agree this is worth us talking about. I, I agree that you're right to be, you know, frustrated by this." Boom. Pull down the fences. Or when you say you turn it into a question of, "Hey, can we, can we go a little bit slower here? Can we speak a little bit kinder b-between each other?" Has a way of not making them feel like you're putting the whole spotlight in their face and like as if they're in some interrogation, and you're saying, "Do better because everything I'm doing is doing great." Because they're not gonna feel like it's even. All right? They're gonna f- they, they're not gonna go, "I'm always the bad person, and you're always the good person." The, the good cop, bad cop kind of stuff, right? They're gonna reject that kind of approach. So when you are able to, in real time... Again, I'm gonna go back to that word approach. When you think differently about how you approach the conversation of w- the statement itself, think, "Hey, can I... Let me, let me redo that." Just even if you were to say, "Hey, can I, can I restate that? I, I, I wanna restate that better." When you do X, Y, and Z, I feel or I think or my brain tells me or I feel inside that, you know, X, Y, and Z, much softer approach. Avoid the acute angle. You wanna avoid the crash and burn. Make it a we thing together rather than just pointing them at you. You don't, you don't, you can't, you can't. If you go into what they can't do or they don't do or what they always or they never, life's more gray than that. No-nobody is altogether good. Nobody is altogether clever. Nobody's all that nice. We're, we're, we're all, we're all in this together because you know what? It's really easy to flip position, and we can get just as defensive. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about

11. 20:49 – 22:22

    Sponsor break: Factor meals (taste, convenience, discount code)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher20:49

       Factor. Y'all, I was not expecting this. Uh, I get hit up by different sponsors for different things, and when Factor came across, I was like, "Yeah, I would love to try, uh, meals where they come straight to your door." And Factor, they said, "Hey, these are our, um, dietician-based meals. They're chef-inspired." And I was like, "Okay, okay." And I tried one. Y'all, I was on the floor they were so good. I, I ca- I couldn't stop talking about it they tasted so good. I've, I've had many. I'm not ashamed to say this. Why? Because you know what it's like when you're day in, day out, and, and you're in the middle of, "I need something for lunch, but I want something good, and I really don't want to go get fast food, and I don't want to have this." Factor takes all of that decision out. Excellent stuff. Y- I tried their salmon. You never know with people saying they were gonna send me salmon. It was excellent. Had their f- chicken fricassée. Awesome. Okay, listen, I'm not gonna tell you it's good unless it's good. It is. So let's eat real. Head to factormeals.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson50OFF. So Jefferson 5-0 off, that's their code. They get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until October 31st, 2026. That's code Jefferson50OFF at factormeals.com. See website for more details. Listen, Factor makes eating healthy a whole lot easier, and it's really that good. I'm, I'm probably gonna have one today in just a little bit. That's how good it is. And now let's

12. 22:22 – 23:58

    Closing: don’t label disagreement as defensiveness; re-approach and restate

    1. JFJefferson Fisher22:22

       keep going. So do not take the fact that somebody disagrees, disagrees with you. This is another point that I wanted to make before I leave you. Just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're defensive. You, you can't take that... What would that say? That if somebody were to disagree with you, they're automatically defensive, okay? There's this quote about if two people always agree on the same thing, that one of them isn't necessary. One of them isn't necessary. You, you require different ideas and disagreement. Just because they disagree with you does not mean that they are defensive of you. That, that is a, a, a scarcity mindset. Both things can be true. They can also have their opinion and disagree with you, and that not mean that they're defensive, all right? So I want you to also remove that filter of simply because somebody has a different opinion or a different thought, and again, it's gonna defend, depend on what? How they approach it too. Approach is the word of the day. That's how you find peace faster. That's how you keep conversation in flow. That's how you stop knots from appearing in the string of connection between the two of you. Cool? How to keep people from getting defensive and even yourself sometimes. All right. Thanks for staying with me while we're a little bit lower and not on the other windshield. I don't know. Let me know how you like this. Maybe we'll just stay right here. Does this, does this feel a little bit more homey? I don't know. I'm gonna ask my kids where that magnetic piece is if we can find it, but anyway. Try that and follow me. You'll be good.

Episode duration: 23:58