The Jefferson Fisher Podcast3 Relationship Habits Every Couple Should Steal
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
45 min read · 8,690 words- 0:00 – 2:16
Meet Shawn Johnson East & Andrew East: high-achiever control vs. real-life marriage
- JFJefferson Fisher
Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Today, my guests are Olympic gold medalist Shawn Johnson and ex-NFL pro Andrew East, a husband and wife couple that are not only a power couple, obviously, they're just some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And so it's just a true pleasure. We get to talk all things relationships, and my marriage, their marriage, and the things that they do to set themselves up for success. If you want to have the courage to commit, which is the name of their latest book, if you want to have strategies for building a better life and a better marriage, well, then some things you need to have in place. We talk all about the structure. How do you create cadences to check in with each other? How you set goals? All of that and more. I hope you enjoy it. What I have enjoyed a lot since moving up here and then hearing about y'all is that you're just good people. Like, you're just salt of the earth, good people. So I'm gonna put that out there.
- SPSpeaker
It's all a lie.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, it's all a lie. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Even though, even though I know y'all are human-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... and you're married, and know that you have just as much problems as anybody else.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Oh, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like, we're all figuring it out.
- SEShawn Johnson East
[laughs] Yes.
- SPSpeaker
It's like when somebody says, like, "Well, you just know all the communication stuff," and I'm like, "If you only-
- SEShawn Johnson East
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... if you only, if you only knew." I can't wait, like for Sierra sometimes, if she was here, she'd be like, "Hey, you remember that time you-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... or you've been in that argument?" And then she's, she's like, "Okay, communication guy."
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Uh, so it can come back to bite you. But I'm-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... what I'm curious about, so you have Olympian.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
A pro ath- NFL pro athlete. There has to be this aspect of, like, your whole life has been perfection-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Right
- SPSpeaker
... and knowing and controlling all the variables. So I see, like, control being a pretty big thing. If you go controlling my, from my diet to my practice to my routine, and then you marry somebody whom you can't control at all, and then you make other humans that you definitely can't control.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Can't control them.
- SPSpeaker
So how, how is that, how has that played out in y'all's marriage?
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Because I think y'all are coming up on what, 10 years?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
10 years in a couple weeks.
- SPSpeaker
That's incredible.
- SEShawn Johnson East
It's been a journey, for sure, and I feel like there's been an arc to it from the beginning.
- 2:16 – 3:12
From pro sports to marriage: losing the old infrastructure and rebuilding a new one
- SEShawn Johnson East
Where we both came out of our professional careers expecting to control everything-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... and going to the complete opposite, where I think both of us coming out of gymnastics and football had a really hard time with the transition, 'cause-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... your entire life is basically controlled for you, and then all your people leave. Your coaches, your dieticians, your psychiatrist, like anything with the professional world, and so you're left to do it all on your own.
- SPSpeaker
It's just you.
- SEShawn Johnson East
And you don't know what you're doing. And we benefited from going through those transitions at different times, so we could kind of support each other. But it's kind of been building from the ground up from there with our marriage and babies, learning how to build an infrastructure to feel like we have control again.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
But very loosely, 'cause we can't control each other.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So we're, um, we're looking and talking to, like, year 10 couple.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah. [laughs]
- 3:12 – 4:57
Year-two realities: the power struggle phase and learning to be a team
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's go back to, like, year two couple. Like how-
- SEShawn Johnson East
I know
- JFJefferson Fisher
... how does, how is that in terms of control for you, Andrew? Of like, "Hey, I want to do what I want to do, and I'm, I'm used to this kind of routine," but there's a lot of this give and take that you're, you're living with somebody.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Uh, I think, you know, people say that marriage goes in phases.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And one of the phases is, like, the power struggle phase-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... which is-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... which is super interesting, 'cause we got married pretty young.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I'm, I'm really grateful for that. We, we-
- JFJefferson Fisher
How old were y'all?
- SEShawn Johnson East
24.
- SPSpeaker
24.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. We were, we were 22 and 21.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yay.
- SPSpeaker
Oh my God.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Great.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I'm grateful to have been married young-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... though, because-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... you know, the whole teaching an old dog new tricks-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... uh, doesn't, it, it, it's, it's a little easier when you're younger to say, "Okay, what is my rhythm of life?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And, you know, we're just transitioning out of the college years, [clears throat] so we're kind of establishing our rhythms together. But, uh, there were, there was a, a lot of conflict and, and it is confusing. You're like, "Okay, what's the right way to progress here? I want to be a good husband. I don't know what that means, though."
- 4:57 – 6:29
Communication patterns to unlearn: stubborn leadership, ‘driver’s seat,’ and permission vs. forgiveness
- JFJefferson Fisher
It... So I'm curious for each of you, what was a communication pattern that you almost had to unlearn once y'all... I feel like you just, I feel like Andrew just looked at me like, "You, dog." [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
You, dog. [laughs]
- SEShawn Johnson East
There's a lot.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
There's a lot.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
We, we decided to take on a lot when we got married. In the sense of-
- JFJefferson Fisher
That doesn't sound like that's in y'all's nature at all.
- SEShawn Johnson East
No. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- SEShawn Johnson East
We went into business together. We became, like, 50/50 business partners, newlyweds. Andrew was bouncing around the country with the NFL. I was bouncing around the country on a tour with gymnastics. There was... Like, we, we did everything probably wrong.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SEShawn Johnson East
But communication that we had to unlearn-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SEShawn Johnson East
... we're both very ambitious-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... and we're very driven, and we're very stubborn. And learning that we both can't be in the driver's seat at the same time-
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- SEShawn Johnson East
... I think was really hard. I came into our marriage basically running my own company.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
And Andrew came in with all of the ideas and all of the ambition to, to lead. And for us, our communication skills had to work, and we had to really unlearn how to both take a step back and kind of start something new-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... instead of saying, "This is mine," or, "This is my idea, and we're gonna do it." And it was very difficult. I mean, we're s- we're still, it's, we're still unlearning that.
- 6:29 – 8:09
A North Star during arguments: ‘We know how this ends’
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I, uh, first of all, if you're listening to this and you have not read Jefferson's book called "The Next Conversation"-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh
- SPSpeaker
... it, it is, it's so good.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Thanks, man.
- SPSpeaker
And I'm so grateful to have read it. Uh, I learned so much in that. One of the things, uh, a concept in there that a mentor of ours shared years ago was anytime you- they'd get in an argument, they'd, they'd almost, um, remind each other that we know how this ends.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And that's with us still married.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And, um, [clears throat] so that's... I, I think that's been a helpful kind of North Star guiding concept of like, hey, we are... like, we're on the same team, and this is going to be to our benefit. We just have to figure out how to get there. I, uh, one communication pattern that I had to unlearn was my dad was a, uh, like, would... He lo- he was a dreamer, and he loved doing any opportunity that he could get his hands on, but he wouldn't necessarily communicate at all to my mom.
- SEShawn Johnson East
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So he would just, like, go do his, he would go do his thing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Just do his thing.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And then it would be like a ask for forgiveness, not permission situation.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, which, you know, Shawn reminded me that I need to do a better job at that even last week. So it's ju- it's more of the considering on the front end and, like, saying, "Hey, what do you think about this?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Was just not, not something that I had too many reps at-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... when, when we were younger, so.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I think the... I like the steering wheel-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... analogy, like who's gonna be in the driver's seat.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because there are people listening to this, and I mean, we're... look at us right now. You have different... We're all d- different individuals.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And we all have individual ambitions.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Then how do you also have the collective ambition?
- 8:09 – 10:12
Annual goal setting ‘vision casting’: discovering their ‘wonderful’ life wasn’t their desired life
- JFJefferson Fisher
So do y'all do anything collectively to say, "This is kind of the goal setting we want"?
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Oh, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, wait, let's hear it.
- SEShawn Johnson East
This is my favorite.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SEShawn Johnson East
Um, when was the first year we did the goal setting?
- SPSpeaker
2018.
- SEShawn Johnson East
In... Okay, 2018.
- SPSpeaker
Y'all call it goal setting?
- SEShawn Johnson East
Uh, uh, yes. Annual, yeah, goal setting.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, we need a cooler name than that. We're gonna-
- SPSpeaker
I, w- w- we called it, like, vision casting-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay
- SPSpeaker
... at one point.
- SEShawn Johnson East
You-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Nice. Okay.
- SPSpeaker
We, we tried a couple-
- SEShawn Johnson East
You gave us some names.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SEShawn Johnson East
You gave us some names for a while.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Not good for the podcast. Yeah. [laughs]
- SEShawn Johnson East
You called it... There was a mind map and... I don't know.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, man.
- SEShawn Johnson East
There were many names.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- SEShawn Johnson East
I went with just say goal setting. But in 2018, we were living in Washington. He was playing for the Washington football team. Life was beautiful. Like, it was wonderful, and we were having a blast. But we sat down and decided to do this goal setting, which we came up kind of out of nowhere. Andrew's dad, the year before, had kinda given us this, um, layout of goal setting.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Or it had all these different categories with philanthropy and faith and family, and we basically took that, which we didn't do the year prior, and said, "Let's actually do this this year kind of for fun." And I remember we sat down at a coffee shop for five hours and wrote down everything we wanted our life to look like. And we thought it was fascinating that both of us, at the end of it, looked down, and it was completely different than the life we had.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- 10:12 – 13:09
Weekly and monthly check-ins: making feedback less personal with a ‘third party’ plan
- JFJefferson Fisher
So what do, what do check-ins look like week to week?
- SPSpeaker
So this has been huge for me.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause I, I think I get really, uh... I, I take things personal, and, like, she can hurt my feelings if, if she gives me some type of feedback or is trying to hold me accountable to one of these goals. But what we've done and what the goal-setting system has helped us do is, like, it's almost have- having a third party in the room.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It's like this neutral third party.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Objective.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. And so when Shawn gives me feedback, uh, it is, it's more referring to this third party and not referring directly to me. It's like, "Hey, remember when we did this, and, and you... it's, it's here on the paper that we wanted to go on 52 date nights a year."
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Whatever it is.
- SPSpeaker
"And we haven't gone on one in, like, the last three weeks." And it's like... And as opposed to me getting defensive-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and saying, "Well, it's because of whatever excuse."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- SPSpeaker
It's more like, "Oh, yeah, you're right. That, like, we are dropping the ball on that." But the check-ins, uh, [clears throat] also help with, with not taking things personal because it's, it's in the future. You talk about this in your book, like, even if it's a 30-minute break.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like, having something, uh, that's on the calendar that I know might be an uncomfortable conversation that sh- maybe she'll give some, some personal feedback to me on. I can kind of prepare t- for that, and I know that I, I can come in with my guard down, and she can come in having thought about the-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... the, the criticism and, and likewise. Uh, and it's, like, way more of a healthy conversation. It's way less emotional. It's more of like a, "Hey, I've noticed this pattern over the last couple days-"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
"... of us not living up to what we said we wanted to. And h- what are some ways we could change that?" And it's been so, it has been so helpful and actually inspiring change 'cause, like, instead of me just feeling offended-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... we're like, "Oh, yeah, actually, you're right, and I'm sorry." And, um, it, it's a, it's a humbling process-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... to have to, like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Take it off the chin and say, "Okay, I-- you're right, I dropped the ball, but l-let's, uh, let's change some things." But it's been so good for us.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
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- 13:09 – 16:50
Cadence details: Sunday logistics, monthly ‘neutral ground’ grievances, and longer annual retreats
- JFJefferson Fisher
The check-ins, how... I wanna visualize them. Is it just y'all sitting in a... at the kitchen? Is it in bed? Is it five minutes? Is it two minutes?
- SEShawn Johnson East
[chuckles]
- JFJefferson Fisher
And I know they all look different.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SEShawn Johnson East
We have different cadences for each thing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- SEShawn Johnson East
If that sounds strange. Annual goal setting is anywhere from four to six hours, and it can't be in our house.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
So it has to be, like, intentional. We have to go somewhere. We block off time. There's no phones, and we do it for, like, four to six hours. Weekly, what would, what would we call the weekly?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Sun- Sunday night.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Every, every Sunday night before we go to bed, after the kids go down-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... we talk about the entire next week.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- SEShawn Johnson East
And that's, like, logistical planning.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SEShawn Johnson East
So that's at home, obviously, just at the kitchen table-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SEShawn Johnson East
... talking through, does the week look good? Does it look like there's enough time for you to feel like your cup is filled-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... and me. Is it... Does it look balanced, and does it... Do we feel like we're on the same page? Um, and then every month we do monthly check-ins. Monthly check-in can't be at home. It has to be at some neutral ground, so it's usually a coffee shop.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [chuckles]
- SEShawn Johnson East
And that's where, for lack of a better way to say it, we can bri-bring our grievances to the table, and we're both prepared for it. So it's kinda like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SEShawn Johnson East
... what are your three check-ins or three things I can work on this month-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... that have been either bothering you or-
- 16:50 – 18:05
Daily connection habit: ‘Bev time’ to stop living like ships in the night
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. We, we, um... I love the morning and, and night check-in. We... W-when we had our second child, we realized that there's so many tasks to do-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that you just kinda get overwhelmed.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
The next thing you do, you're like, you know, we're, we're just ships in the night, as people say.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [chuckles]
- SPSpeaker
And you're n- you're not actually stopping and looking each other in the eye and connecting. And that... I mean, it, it can really make you feel lonely. And so we started what we call Bev time, where it's like, we'll put the kids down.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Bev time.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Bev time.
- SPSpeaker
And the first thing, the f- the first thing we do, it, it was, uh, because we were drinking wine back, back then in the day. But, uh, but we used to put the kids down and then, like, jump on our phones. And then it's like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... there was this feeling of, wow, I, I really wanted to connect.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And I, I... My, my goal here with this marriage, if I zoom out, is, like, to, to be fully known and fully loved. You know what I'm saying?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And, uh, we're not really doing that on a day-to-day basis, it doesn't feel like. So we started this time where it's like, kids go down, and we have anywhere from five minutes to forty-five minutes every night where we're just, like, talking, debriefing. Like, tell me about-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... all the things that happened, 'cause that is a beautiful part about marriage, where, like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... you're a witness to someone else's life.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And, like, all the little highs and lows in the day, it's beautiful.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Your front row seat, man.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 18:05 – 21:13
Structure vs. spontaneity: why systems can increase romance and reduce regret
- SPSpeaker
Like, I wanna hear... I used to be, when I was younger, like, so obsessed with, like, getting things done, being productive, being efficient, and so those kind of conversations just felt like, forgive me, but, like, unnecessary 'cause- I don't know. I didn't, I didn't see the bigger picture, but now I see how- Mm-hmm ... beautiful and colorful that makes life. And [clears throat] I would just love-- W-we get somewhat criticized because people will say, "Well, d- doesn't that come across as too structured and you're losing the spontaneity in life and, like, the, the whimsical romance when you have all these structures and check-ins and these systems and goals?" And, uh, and in my mind, I would like to be as strategic with my family life, my marriage, as I am in business. Yeah. Because I know, like, everyone talks about, "Hey, what's our five-year plan in business, and what are our values, and what are, what are our 30-day goals, our 90-day goals?" Right. I, at the very least, I wanna do that same thing for my marriage 'cause it's like, it's like, um, a display of effort to some capacity. And I know that if I don't have those structures or, or systems in place, I resort to being immature and irresponsible- [chuckles] Right. Yeah ... with my free time. Like, I'll, I'll jump on my phone, I'll turn on Netflix- Of course ... I'm scrolling and, and then you're like, you know, z- fast forward five years, you're like, "Wait, w- I missed the whole point." Right. "I missed it all," so. Yeah. Life, life is lived well when it's built well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the same thing for, for marriage. Yeah, I-- it, it can be rigid, but like a good piece of furniture. Like, you gotta have-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... good bones on it-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... or it's gonna be hard to-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... hard to sit in, I think. So I- Preach ... I, I am, I am all about that kind of, that kind of setup. Before we get going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Mill. Now, Mill has been in our kitchen. Now, it looks like a trash can. It is not, all right? It's the thing that changes the way your kitchen is going to run. We've had it now for probably eight months. Not only does the whole family love it, my kids love it. What is Mill? Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler that handles the cleanup after dinner is over. So all... What does that mean? When you have a, a plate that's your kinda leftovers and you have scraps, you just scrape it down into the Mill, and overnight the Mill turns it into grounds, shelf-stable grounds, and it's awesome. It doesn't smell. We thought it was gonna smell. It doesn't. We thought it was gonna be loud. It was not. Like, every thought, we were like, "Ah," it's, it's totally covered. And the packaging is awesome. Let me just tell you, you know a company's gonna be good when their packaging is, is awesome. So I would say the thing that surprised me the most about Mill is just how well, top to bottom, the product has worked. We've been really, really happy with it. Also, I didn't really consider how good it would feel to know that your decision of not adding to a bunch of waste is helping, helping the environment. In fact, Mill has already helped divert over 15 million pounds of food. That's a lot of food, and that's a lot of good that we're doing for the world. So try Mill risk-free for 90 days and get $75 off at mill.com/jefferson,
- 21:13 – 29:37
The book’s thesis: the ‘hack’ is commitment—working through valleys instead of chasing the next fix
- SPSpeaker
and use code Jefferson at checkout. That's $75 off at mill.com/jefferson. Use code Jefferson. That's mill.com/jefferson. Use code Jefferson. And now, let's keep going. And I w- I wanna make sure, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to, to bring y'all to my community and audience, is because of the book that y'all have coming out, which the fact that y'all have written this together-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] If I can give y'all all the props for that- Yeah ... first off. It's called The Courage To Commit: Embrace the Radical Power of Sticking With Something. And I thought, man, how incredible because so many times when we kind of absorb marriage advice, relationship advice, we're always looking for, I think you said before, like, the hack.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Like, we're looking for that, what's that one little nugget that's just gonna magically change-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... everything, when the truth is the hack is the commitment.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It is choosing to commit regardless- Yeah. [clears throat] ... of, in spite of knowing full well that that's what's gonna-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... make all the difference. So te-tell me, when you think of the courage to commit, how, how have y'all made that in your own- [laughs] How have you made that happen in your own life? Hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
By everything we just talked about.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Truly s- like, working through it and working through all the problems. And I feel like it... I feel like everybody knows it, right? Everybody knows that to be an elite athlete, you have to commit to a sport, and you have to work through the hard days and the grind, and, like, that's a very stereotypical story-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... you hear, and people know about it. We had gone through that, and we had lived through that, and w- yet we still found ourselves with certain things, saying, "We just need to go find, you know, the next thing to make us happy-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... and that's gonna fix the problem."
- SPSpeaker
The next thing. Hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Instead of saying, "You know what? Let's just work through the really uncomfortable valley, and if we can get through it, let's see what's on the other side." And there were so many times in our life with business and with our kids and even with our marriage, and there still will be. We haven't mastered anything-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SEShawn Johnson East
... by any means, but we've, I think we've-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SEShawn Johnson East
... we're starting to see the through line. But it seemed like every time we did that, we kinda hunkered down and said-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... "Let's figure it out. Let's get through this roadblock," it just became better and more fruitful and more joyful and more purposeful on the other side. And I think even in our marriage, whenever it starts to get hard, it's like, "Okay, I'm not going to avoid it. We're actually gonna confront it, and we're gonna figure out how to work through it, and we're gonna find, um... I don't know, just we're just gonna keep chugging along."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah. There was a point in my life after I finished playing football, um, it, it's hard to transition out of athletics 'cause it's so intense, and there's, there's such an infrastructure, like Shawn was saying, of coaches and nutritionists and your workout plan, your diet- Mm-hmm ... your friend group. All of it is in this, like, really intense orbit of athletics. And then you leave it, and you're like, "I don't have anybody to hang out with. I don't know what to do with my time." And in that weird phase after I was done playing, [clears throat] I realized that I was, I was really struggling, not because I, I had ... chosen anything wrong. It was just because I wasn't making a choice at all.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And, um, a- and like I needed to do something. I needed to take the next step, but I was so paralyzed by trying to analyze which choice is the best when really there was a ton of good choices, and it was up to me to, like, make one good choice the great choice.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah. Yeah.
- 29:37 – 35:41
Conflict as reps: coaching, tools, and the balance-beam mindset for recurring arguments
- JFJefferson Fisher
Knowing that in marriage you're going to have conflict-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... how do you handle it with this mindset of having the courage to commit?
- SEShawn Johnson East
I think I might answer this in a different way, but one of the hardest parts about writing this book was taking the joy and the purpose and the fruit of all the hard work we've put in so far, and then backtracking and explaining how we got here. And so I think to answer your question, we, over the course of 10 years, have had such a privilege of failing miserably at arguments and inde-indecisiveness and business failures. But we've had such the privilege of every time that's happened, we've tried to go find what we're used to, which is, like, a really good coach, a really good mentor, a really good therapist. And we've tried to equip ourselves with all of these tools and this knowledge to be able to attack arguments and valleys better in any phase or category of life. So the hardest part and my favorite part, and I think the answer to the question is- We tried to take all of that wisdom that we've learned from other people-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... not that we've-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SEShawn Johnson East
... you know, come up with ourselves, and put it into like a how-to and why in the book, and we've actually dissected how we go about it, how we go about implementing a new commitment and then sticking with it. And when it gets really hard and we start fighting about it, what rhythms and routines we can put into place to kind of protect that and make that argument easier to get through.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
And I mean, we've, we've kind of gone down to the, the smallest example of we didn't like that our family was watching a lot of TV.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
But we wanted to commit to not watching as much TV, and then how do we actually make that happen? And we even talked about how we took out a TV of our-- we took out the main TV in our living room, like in our hosting space.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
And we thought it was crazy, and it caused an argument. But then we looked back three weeks later and we were like, "You know what? Our kids aren't asking for it. We're actually connecting more." And there's like all of these little examples, but I think within our arguments in our marriage, we've implemented an infrastructure of, you know what? This argument has gotten so heated over something so silly. Let's go back to kind of the tools that we've learned and start there and work our way to the agreement, I guess. Does that make sense?
- SPSpeaker
The, your question makes me think of like the, the idea of grabbing the steering wheel back, um, for me has always come out of a place of like this desperation or maybe this urgency of like, "Oh no, but I can't let you do this, th-this to me right now." And it makes me think of, uh, Sh-Shawn talks about how she had to do something like sixteen thousand reps to, to stick this certain movement on a balance beam, which I think is the craziest-
- SEShawn Johnson East
[chuckles]
- SPSpeaker
... I think that's the craziest, uh, event in any sport-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... where you're trying to do back flips on a four-inch wide beam. But, uh, just this concept that she's not gonna get it right the first time, and it's gonna-- Actually, she's not even gonna do it on the balance beam the first time. It's like this growing process and like there's this try, fail, try, fail, try, fail that's not, that's not urgent. It's, it's over the course of years that you learn this.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And when I started applying that concept to how we had conversations, it made me a little more curious, uh, to, to like view it from a third-party audience member kind of perspective of like, "Oh, okay, well, this is just a rep." We're, we're, we're having this conversation. We've had the same argument about one specific topic, which is our-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Which one?
- SPSpeaker
... which are our dogs.
- SEShawn Johnson East
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Uh, probably like the same conversation two hundred times.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
How many dogs do y'all have?
- SPSpeaker
Two now.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Two.
- 35:41 – 40:55
Culture’s lie about ease: hard doesn’t mean wrong—and marriage may be the ultimate growth engine
- SEShawn Johnson East
Also, on a, like a lighter note, a bit darker, that's why we wrote the book.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Culture is very odd right now, where I feel like culture is trying to teach everybody that that's not normal.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Committing, yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Committing and hardship.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SEShawn Johnson East
People, I feel like in today's culture, keep preaching this idea of if you commit to something, then it shouldn't be hard. And if it's not hard, you know you have the right-- you chose the right thing. And it's so opposite of that. I think no matter what you choose, it's going to be very difficult. But the longer you stay committed to it, the more joyful and the more fruitful it w-it will be. I mean, I, I fell in love with gymnastics at the age of three, and it was so hard.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
And I even tried quitting multiple times, and I would quit for a week, and I'd be like, "You know what? I really like it, and I really want to go back." But every time I would push through something, it would be more joyful. And I just think culture has got it wrong, and it's, it's frustrating to witness.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I think that is so well said, Shawn, to, to be that- We-- I do think you're right, where if it doesn't come easy, you, it, then you shouldn't just really do it.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
But it's, it's, it's not that at all. It's, it's that exact contrast that makes it worth-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... doing. 'Cause if everything was easy, then-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah. It wouldn't be fun.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Then there wouldn't be, I don't think, the, the fruit, the joy-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... out of it.
- SEShawn Johnson East
And I think if people just keep believing that, then they'll never find anything.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Tell me more.
- SEShawn Johnson East
In the sense of, like, if, if someone is searching in business, in life, in a hobby, in a m- marriage or relationship for the perfect, the perfect easy commitment-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SEShawn Johnson East
... of whatever it is, you will never find it, because you will find yourself in a relationship or a business where you're like, "This is so easy. It's meant to be." And you're gonna hit your first roadblock and start doubting that you made the right choice. Instead of saying, "Bring it on."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SEShawn Johnson East
"Let me get through it and prove to you that I still love this."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Do you-
- SEShawn Johnson East
And I think that's why people quit stuff so much anymore.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You, do you find any kind of, uh, I-- Knowing that this is exactly what you wrote the book about, uh, do you find that there is some of those parallels between what y'all know to be, to have the, the mindset of an Olympian or pro athlete or whatever, and then now applying those same kind of principles to marriage? 'Cause it's another thing-
- SEShawn Johnson East
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... of like gymnastics. You said gymnastics is hard. It's really not doing. Marriage, marriage is-
- 40:55 – 43:07
Closing: leap-of-faith metaphor, who the book is for, and choosing a path over perfect certainty
- SPSpeaker
Do you mind if I share, if I close this out and share one last visual here?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's do it. Yes.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Oh, wow. Another analogy?
- SPSpeaker
I know, I know. I'm sorry.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's go.
- SEShawn Johnson East
Oh, God.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I'd love to just... Well, no, if you-- Go ahead, Shawn. I'm just gonna keep talking. [laughs]
- SEShawn Johnson East
Exactly.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah. One big... I don't know, take us over time here. Uh, I'll never forget watching Indiana Jones, and there's this scene where Indiana Jones is on, on this cliff.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And he's trying to get to the other side. And to get there, he has to take this leap of faith. He has to have the courage to, like, step in-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... to, to what he's been told is this invisible bridge to the other side.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And, and to me, that's what I hope this book inspires is, like, hey, you, like, you don't know. You can't tell for sure until you jump in and, and you, like, come on in, the wa- the water's fine. You know?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It's like you have to take the step. You have to take the leap of faith in order to get to that other thing, to get to the other side, whether it's a relationship, like the meaningful business, build, build that thing. It's like you have to take the leap of faith, and you have to have the courage, and then you have to put your full weight down on that thing. And, and, uh, anyway, I appreciate you, uh, you having us on. You, you-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
... the communication guru, so this has been a real treat.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No, no. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And, uh-
- JFJefferson Fisher
No, no.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I don't wanna-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... keep that guru thing out there.
- SPSpeaker
[laughing]
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'm not that. No, I, and I do wanna make sure and, and ask this question. Who, who... When you think of who you wrote this book for, who, who are the people that come to mind? I was gonna tell you, you can look at me and Sierra for one.
- SPSpeaker
It's you. It's you, Jefferson.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
Episode duration: 43:07
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