3 Relationship Habits Every Couple Should Steal

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Today, my guests are Olympic gold medalist Shawn Johnson and ex-NFL pro Andrew East, a husband and wife couple that are not only a power couple, obviously, they're just some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And so it's just a true pleasure. We get to talk all things relationships, and my marriage, their marriage, and the things that they do to set themselves up for success. If you want to have the courage to commit, which is the name of their latest book, if you want to have strategies for building a better life and a better marriage, well, then some things you need to have in place. We talk all about the structure. How do you create cadences to check in with each other? How you set goals? All of that and more. I hope you enjoy it. What I have enjoyed a lot since moving up here and then hearing about y'all is that you're just good people. Like, you're just salt of the earth, good people. So I'm gonna put that out there.

Speaker 0:56 It's all a lie.

Jefferson Fisher 0:57 Yeah, it's all a lie. [laughs]

Speaker 0:59 Even though, even though I know y'all are human-

Shawn Johnson East 1:02 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:03 ... and you're married, and know that you have just as much problems as anybody else.

Shawn Johnson East 1:08 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:08 Like, we're all figuring it out.

Shawn Johnson East 1:10 [laughs] Yes.

Speaker 1:10 It's like when somebody says, like, "Well, you just know all the communication stuff," and I'm like, "If you only-

Shawn Johnson East 1:16 [laughs]

Speaker 1:17 ... if you only, if you only knew." I can't wait, like for Sierra sometimes, if she was here, she'd be like, "Hey, you remember that time you-

Jefferson Fisher 1:23 [laughs]

Speaker 1:23 ... or you've been in that argument?" And then she's, she's like, "Okay, communication guy."

Jefferson Fisher 1:28 [laughs]

Speaker 1:28 Uh, so it can come back to bite you. But I'm-

Jefferson Fisher 1:30 Yeah

Speaker 1:30 ... what I'm curious about, so you have Olympian.

Shawn Johnson East 1:34 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:34 A pro ath- NFL pro athlete. There has to be this aspect of, like, your whole life has been perfection-

Shawn Johnson East 1:42 Right

Speaker 1:42 ... and knowing and controlling all the variables. So I see, like, control being a pretty big thing. If you go controlling my, from my diet to my practice to my routine, and then you marry somebody whom you can't control at all, and then you make other humans that you definitely can't control.

Shawn Johnson East 1:58 Can't control them.

Speaker 1:59 So how, how is that, how has that played out in y'all's marriage?

Shawn Johnson East 2:04 Mm.

Speaker 2:04 Because I think y'all are coming up on what, 10 years?

Jefferson Fisher 2:06 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 2:06 10 years in a couple weeks.

Speaker 2:08 That's incredible.

Shawn Johnson East 2:09 It's been a journey, for sure, and I feel like there's been an arc to it from the beginning.

Speaker 2:15 An arc?

Shawn Johnson East 2:15 Yeah.

Speaker 2:16 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 2:16 Where we both came out of our professional careers expecting to control everything-

Speaker 2:22 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 2:22 ... and going to the complete opposite, where I think both of us coming out of gymnastics and football had a really hard time with the transition, 'cause-

Speaker 2:31 Mm

Shawn Johnson East 2:31 ... your entire life is basically controlled for you, and then all your people leave. Your coaches, your dieticians, your psychiatrist, like anything with the professional world, and so you're left to do it all on your own.

Speaker 2:43 It's just you.

Shawn Johnson East 2:44 And you don't know what you're doing. And we benefited from going through those transitions at different times, so we could kind of support each other. But it's kind of been building from the ground up from there with our marriage and babies, learning how to build an infrastructure to feel like we have control again.

Speaker 3:04 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 3:05 But very loosely, 'cause we can't control each other.

Speaker 3:07 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 3:07 So we're, um, we're looking and talking to, like, year 10 couple.

Shawn Johnson East 3:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 3:12 Let's go back to, like, year two couple. Like how-

Shawn Johnson East 3:14 I know

Jefferson Fisher 3:14 ... how does, how is that in terms of control for you, Andrew? Of like, "Hey, I want to do what I want to do, and I'm, I'm used to this kind of routine," but there's a lot of this give and take that you're, you're living with somebody.

Speaker 3:28 Yeah. Uh, I think, you know, people say that marriage goes in phases.

Jefferson Fisher 3:33 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3:33 And one of the phases is, like, the power struggle phase-

Shawn Johnson East 3:36 Mm-hmm

Speaker 3:36 ... which is-

Jefferson Fisher 3:37 Oh, yeah

Speaker 3:37 ... which is super interesting, 'cause we got married pretty young.

Shawn Johnson East 3:39 Yeah.

Speaker 3:39 And I'm, I'm really grateful for that. We, we-

Jefferson Fisher 3:41 How old were y'all?

Shawn Johnson East 3:42 24.

Speaker 3:42 24.

Jefferson Fisher 3:43 Okay. We were, we were 22 and 21.

Shawn Johnson East 3:45 Yay.

Speaker 3:45 Oh my God.

Shawn Johnson East 3:46 Great.

Jefferson Fisher 3:46 Yeah.

Speaker 3:47 I'm grateful to have been married young-

Shawn Johnson East 3:49 Yeah

Speaker 3:49 ... though, because-

Jefferson Fisher 3:49 Mm-hmm

Speaker 3:50 ... you know, the whole teaching an old dog new tricks-

Shawn Johnson East 3:53 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 3:53 Yeah

Speaker 3:53 ... uh, doesn't, it, it, it's, it's a little easier when you're younger to say, "Okay, what is my rhythm of life?"

Jefferson Fisher 3:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3:59 And, you know, we're just transitioning out of the college years, [clears throat] so we're kind of establishing our rhythms together. But, uh, there were, there was a, a lot of conflict and, and it is confusing. You're like, "Okay, what's the right way to progress here? I want to be a good husband. I don't know what that means, though."

Jefferson Fisher 4:14 [laughs]

Speaker 4:14 I wanna, like, I wanna, like... [laughs] You know, I wanna share my perspective while also respecting hers and, and that the marriage of the two styles-

Jefferson Fisher 4:25 Mm-hmm

Speaker 4:25 ... and perspectives is a really difficult process. We're still in the midst of it, by the way. [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 4:31 [laughs] Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 4:31 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 4:31 Forever.

Speaker 4:32 Every phase, every new child, there, there's always something changing. But [clears throat] it was, it was really fun to just say, "Hey, actually, none of us need to be in control. We're a team, and you have some beautiful things that you bring to the table and beautiful styles that we should incorporate, and so do I, and then let's just, like, we'll just do a little dance with it all, you know?"

Jefferson Fisher 4:53 Yeah.

Speaker 4:53 "We'll figure it out."

Jefferson Fisher 4:54 I think Shawn's right. It's a journey. It's been a journey.

Shawn Johnson East 4:56 It's a journey.

Speaker 4:56 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 4:57 It... So I'm curious for each of you, what was a communication pattern that you almost had to unlearn once y'all... I feel like you just, I feel like Andrew just looked at me like, "You, dog." [laughs]

Speaker 5:11 You, dog. [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 5:14 There's a lot.

Jefferson Fisher 5:15 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 5:16 There's a lot.

Speaker 5:17 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 5:17 We, we decided to take on a lot when we got married. In the sense of-

Jefferson Fisher 5:22 That doesn't sound like that's in y'all's nature at all.

Shawn Johnson East 5:24 No. [laughs]

Speaker 5:24 Right.

Shawn Johnson East 5:24 We went into business together. We became, like, 50/50 business partners, newlyweds. Andrew was bouncing around the country with the NFL. I was bouncing around the country on a tour with gymnastics. There was... Like, we, we did everything probably wrong.

Jefferson Fisher 5:40 [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 5:40 But communication that we had to unlearn-

Jefferson Fisher 5:44 Yeah

Shawn Johnson East 5:44 ... we're both very ambitious-

Jefferson Fisher 5:46 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 5:46 ... and we're very driven, and we're very stubborn. And learning that we both can't be in the driver's seat at the same time-

Speaker 5:56 Yes

Shawn Johnson East 5:56 ... I think was really hard. I came into our marriage basically running my own company.

Jefferson Fisher 6:03 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 6:04 And Andrew came in with all of the ideas and all of the ambition to, to lead. And for us, our communication skills had to work, and we had to really unlearn how to both take a step back and kind of start something new-

Speaker 6:19 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 6:19 ... instead of saying, "This is mine," or, "This is my idea, and we're gonna do it." And it was very difficult. I mean, we're s- we're still, it's, we're still unlearning that.

Speaker 6:29 Yeah. I, uh, first of all, if you're listening to this and you have not read Jefferson's book called "The Next Conversation"-

Jefferson Fisher 6:36 Oh

Speaker 6:36 ... it, it is, it's so good.

Jefferson Fisher 6:38 Thanks, man.

Speaker 6:38 And I'm so grateful to have read it. Uh, I learned so much in that. One of the things, uh, a concept in there that a mentor of ours shared years ago was anytime you- they'd get in an argument, they'd, they'd almost, um, remind each other that we know how this ends.

Shawn Johnson East 6:54 Mm.

Speaker 6:54 And that's with us still married.

Jefferson Fisher 6:55 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 6:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 6:56 And, um, [clears throat] so that's... I, I think that's been a helpful kind of North Star guiding concept of like, hey, we are... like, we're on the same team, and this is going to be to our benefit. We just have to figure out how to get there. I, uh, one communication pattern that I had to unlearn was my dad was a, uh, like, would... He lo- he was a dreamer, and he loved doing any opportunity that he could get his hands on, but he wouldn't necessarily communicate at all to my mom.

Shawn Johnson East 7:27 [laughs]

Speaker 7:27 So he would just, like, go do his, he would go do his thing.

Jefferson Fisher 7:29 Just do his thing.

Shawn Johnson East 7:30 Yeah.

Speaker 7:30 And then it would be like a ask for forgiveness, not permission situation.

Jefferson Fisher 7:33 Mm.

Speaker 7:34 Uh, which, you know, Shawn reminded me that I need to do a better job at that even last week. So it's ju- it's more of the considering on the front end and, like, saying, "Hey, what do you think about this?"

Jefferson Fisher 7:45 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:46 Was just not, not something that I had too many reps at-

Jefferson Fisher 7:48 Yeah

Speaker 7:49 ... when, when we were younger, so.

Jefferson Fisher 7:50 I think the... I like the steering wheel-

Shawn Johnson East 7:54 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 7:54 ... analogy, like who's gonna be in the driver's seat.

Speaker 7:56 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 7:57 Because there are people listening to this, and I mean, we're... look at us right now. You have different... We're all d- different individuals.

Shawn Johnson East 8:04 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 8:04 And we all have individual ambitions.

Shawn Johnson East 8:06 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 8:07 Then how do you also have the collective ambition?

Shawn Johnson East 8:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 8:09 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 8:09 So do y'all do anything collectively to say, "This is kind of the goal setting we want"?

Speaker 8:18 Hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 8:18 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 8:19 Oh, wait, let's hear it.

Shawn Johnson East 8:20 This is my favorite.

Speaker 8:21 [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 8:22 Um, when was the first year we did the goal setting?

Speaker 8:24 2018.

Shawn Johnson East 8:25 In... Okay, 2018.

Speaker 8:26 Y'all call it goal setting?

Shawn Johnson East 8:27 Uh, uh, yes. Annual, yeah, goal setting.

Jefferson Fisher 8:30 Well, we need a cooler name than that. We're gonna-

Speaker 8:32 I, w- w- we called it, like, vision casting-

Jefferson Fisher 8:35 Okay

Speaker 8:35 ... at one point.

Shawn Johnson East 8:35 You-

Jefferson Fisher 8:36 Nice. Okay.

Speaker 8:36 We, we tried a couple-

Shawn Johnson East 8:37 You gave us some names.

Speaker 8:38 [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 8:38 You gave us some names for a while.

Jefferson Fisher 8:39 Not good for the podcast. Yeah. [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 8:41 You called it... There was a mind map and... I don't know.

Speaker 8:44 Oh, man.

Shawn Johnson East 8:44 There were many names.

Jefferson Fisher 8:45 Okay.

Shawn Johnson East 8:45 I went with just say goal setting. But in 2018, we were living in Washington. He was playing for the Washington football team. Life was beautiful. Like, it was wonderful, and we were having a blast. But we sat down and decided to do this goal setting, which we came up kind of out of nowhere. Andrew's dad, the year before, had kinda given us this, um, layout of goal setting.

Speaker 9:11 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 9:12 Or it had all these different categories with philanthropy and faith and family, and we basically took that, which we didn't do the year prior, and said, "Let's actually do this this year kind of for fun." And I remember we sat down at a coffee shop for five hours and wrote down everything we wanted our life to look like. And we thought it was fascinating that both of us, at the end of it, looked down, and it was completely different than the life we had.

Speaker 9:38 Mm.

Shawn Johnson East 9:39 Which is odd because our life was wonderful. We weren't upset, and we weren't sad, and we weren't, you know, unhappy, but it's not what we wanted.

Speaker 9:47 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 9:48 And so that kinda sparked the start of every year we do these big goal settings where we write our individual goals, our goals together, and then we put them all together to make sure that I know how to support Andrew, he knows how to support me. We know how to make time for everything that feels important to each of us. And then we do check-ins every week, every month-

Speaker 10:08 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 10:08 ... every quarter to make sure we're kind of headed in the right direction.

Jefferson Fisher 10:12 So what do, what do check-ins look like week to week?

Speaker 10:16 So this has been huge for me.

Shawn Johnson East 10:17 Yeah.

Speaker 10:17 'Cause I, I think I get really, uh... I, I take things personal, and, like, she can hurt my feelings if, if she gives me some type of feedback or is trying to hold me accountable to one of these goals. But what we've done and what the goal-setting system has helped us do is, like, it's almost have- having a third party in the room.

Shawn Johnson East 10:35 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 10:35 It's like this neutral third party.

Jefferson Fisher 10:37 Objective.

Shawn Johnson East 10:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 10:38 Yeah. And so when Shawn gives me feedback, uh, it is, it's more referring to this third party and not referring directly to me. It's like, "Hey, remember when we did this, and, and you... it's, it's here on the paper that we wanted to go on 52 date nights a year."

Shawn Johnson East 10:55 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 10:55 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 10:56 Whatever it is.

Speaker 10:56 "And we haven't gone on one in, like, the last three weeks." And it's like... And as opposed to me getting defensive-

Jefferson Fisher 11:00 Yeah

Speaker 11:01 ... and saying, "Well, it's because of whatever excuse."

Jefferson Fisher 11:04 Exactly.

Speaker 11:04 It's more like, "Oh, yeah, you're right. That, like, we are dropping the ball on that." But the check-ins, uh, [clears throat] also help with, with not taking things personal because it's, it's in the future. You talk about this in your book, like, even if it's a 30-minute break.

Jefferson Fisher 11:20 Yeah.

Speaker 11:20 Like, having something, uh, that's on the calendar that I know might be an uncomfortable conversation that sh- maybe she'll give some, some personal feedback to me on. I can kind of prepare t- for that, and I know that I, I can come in with my guard down, and she can come in having thought about the-

Jefferson Fisher 11:38 Mm-hmm

Speaker 11:38 ... the, the criticism and, and likewise. Uh, and it's, like, way more of a healthy conversation. It's way less emotional. It's more of like a, "Hey, I've noticed this pattern over the last couple days-"

Jefferson Fisher 11:47 Yeah

Speaker 11:48 "... of us not living up to what we said we wanted to. And h- what are some ways we could change that?" And it's been so, it has been so helpful and actually inspiring change 'cause, like, instead of me just feeling offended-

Jefferson Fisher 12:01 Mm-hmm

Speaker 12:01 ... we're like, "Oh, yeah, actually, you're right, and I'm sorry." And, um, it, it's a, it's a humbling process-

Shawn Johnson East 12:08 Mm-hmm

Speaker 12:08 ... to have to, like-

Jefferson Fisher 12:09 Take it off the chin and say, "Okay, I-- you're right, I dropped the ball, but l-let's, uh, let's change some things." But it's been so good for us.

Shawn Johnson East 12:15 Yeah.

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Jefferson Fisher 13:09 The check-ins, how... I wanna visualize them. Is it just y'all sitting in a... at the kitchen? Is it in bed? Is it five minutes? Is it two minutes?

Shawn Johnson East 13:16 [chuckles]

Jefferson Fisher 13:16 And I know they all look different.

Shawn Johnson East 13:17 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 13:18 Right.

Shawn Johnson East 13:18 We have different cadences for each thing.

Jefferson Fisher 13:21 Okay.

Shawn Johnson East 13:21 If that sounds strange. Annual goal setting is anywhere from four to six hours, and it can't be in our house.

Jefferson Fisher 13:29 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 13:29 So it has to be, like, intentional. We have to go somewhere. We block off time. There's no phones, and we do it for, like, four to six hours. Weekly, what would, what would we call the weekly?

Jefferson Fisher 13:41 Sun- Sunday night.

Shawn Johnson East 13:42 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 13:42 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 13:42 Every, every Sunday night before we go to bed, after the kids go down-

Jefferson Fisher 13:46 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 13:46 ... we talk about the entire next week.

Jefferson Fisher 13:48 Okay.

Shawn Johnson East 13:48 And that's, like, logistical planning.

Jefferson Fisher 13:50 Right.

Shawn Johnson East 13:50 So that's at home, obviously, just at the kitchen table-

Jefferson Fisher 13:54 Yeah

Shawn Johnson East 13:54 ... talking through, does the week look good? Does it look like there's enough time for you to feel like your cup is filled-

Jefferson Fisher 14:02 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 14:03 ... and me. Is it... Does it look balanced, and does it... Do we feel like we're on the same page? Um, and then every month we do monthly check-ins. Monthly check-in can't be at home. It has to be at some neutral ground, so it's usually a coffee shop.

Jefferson Fisher 14:16 Yeah. [chuckles]

Shawn Johnson East 14:16 And that's where, for lack of a better way to say it, we can bri-bring our grievances to the table, and we're both prepared for it. So it's kinda like-

Jefferson Fisher 14:26 Yeah

Shawn Johnson East 14:26 ... what are your three check-ins or three things I can work on this month-

Jefferson Fisher 14:30 Hmm

Shawn Johnson East 14:31 ... that have been either bothering you or-

Speaker 14:34 Things you've noticed.

Jefferson Fisher 14:34 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 14:35 And I say that to say we still bring stuff up on a daily basis or weekly basis.

Jefferson Fisher 14:39 Sure.

Shawn Johnson East 14:39 You're not, like, harboring them for-

Jefferson Fisher 14:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Shawn Johnson East 14:41 ... monthly check-ins. But that's where we can both come around the table and say, "Ah, I don't think this is feeling good. I don't think the rhythm of this habit that we've implemented, I like."

Jefferson Fisher 14:52 Oh, yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 14:52 "How we normally talk about the kids." We... Like, everything.

Jefferson Fisher 14:55 Ooh.

Shawn Johnson East 14:55 It's kind of an unloading, and that's usually a half hour, hour.

Jefferson Fisher 14:58 Yeah. It's not... I mean, depends on the season of life we're in.

Shawn Johnson East 15:01 Depends. Sometimes we're like, "I got nothing."

Jefferson Fisher 15:02 But, but there are people who might listen to this and go, "Eh, that sounds nuts."

Shawn Johnson East 15:06 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 15:06 It's not nuts.

Shawn Johnson East 15:07 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 15:07 Like, that's, I think, what we're about to talk about it. That, that is committing to saying-

Shawn Johnson East 15:13 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 15:13 ... "This is my North Star. This is my goal." And that's what... Then that's exactly what it takes. Like, for me and Sierra, you know, we have... We r- we like morning check-ins and evening check-ins.

Shawn Johnson East 15:23 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 15:24 And what I have learned really helps her in the day is when we talk logistics of that day-

Shawn Johnson East 15:31 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 15:31 ... she... We like to talk about, you know, how we're feeling, which is harder for me than it is-

Shawn Johnson East 15:38 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 15:38 ... for her 'cause I can kind of pl- uh, you know, lay out stuff and she goes, "Okay, you tell me what you're doing. You didn't tell me how you feel about it."

Shawn Johnson East 15:45 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 15:45 Or, "You told me what you did. You didn't tell me how you felt about it." I was like, "Ugh, okay."

Speaker 15:49 Bro, the self-awareness of, like, putting a word to your emotion-

Jefferson Fisher 15:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 15:52 ... I'm like, "Well, I don't know how to do this."

Jefferson Fisher 15:53 I know, I know. But I've heard y'all say t- of, like, your feelings.

Shawn Johnson East 15:55 Oh, yeah. [chuckles]

Jefferson Fisher 15:56 Yeah. And he's facts.

Shawn Johnson East 15:57 For sure.

Jefferson Fisher 15:57 You know? And I think that's just... You have to appreciate some aspect-

Shawn Johnson East 16:01 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 16:01 ... of that in some sense. And then it... third is she... We both like to hear kind of what's God doing in your life-

Shawn Johnson East 16:08 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 16:08 ... like right now. Like, what, where do you... What did you notice throughout the day that you're kind of working on?

Shawn Johnson East 16:11 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 16:11 So we... But we haven't done the monthlies. I think the monthlies is, is a good one-

Shawn Johnson East 16:16 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 16:16 ... that we're gonna add. My, my grandparents do this thing where they do an annual contract.

Shawn Johnson East 16:20 [chuckles]

Speaker 16:21 Love it.

Jefferson Fisher 16:21 So they write it out of, like-

Shawn Johnson East 16:23 Love that

Jefferson Fisher 16:23 ... what they're agreeing to.

Shawn Johnson East 16:25 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 16:25 And they'll, like, amend it from year to year of like-

Shawn Johnson East 16:27 Yep

Jefferson Fisher 16:27 ... actually, you're gonna be doing this, I'm gonna be doing this. And it's like, do you wanna go another round?

Speaker 16:31 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 16:31 Like, that's... Yep.

Shawn Johnson East 16:33 I love that.

Jefferson Fisher 16:33 And so they're able to, like, point to the contract. But yeah, they have, like, a little contract retreat-

Speaker 16:38 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 16:38 ... that they, that they do. And it's like, well, you might be thinking this sounds a lot, but if you want your marriage to be a good marriage, then it's, it's hard to do-

Shawn Johnson East 16:48 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 16:49 ... these, these little things.

Speaker 16:50 Yeah. We, we, um... I love the morning and, and night check-in. We... W-when we had our second child, we realized that there's so many tasks to do-

Shawn Johnson East 16:59 Mm-hmm

Speaker 16:59 ... that-

Jefferson Fisher 16:59 Yeah

Speaker 16:59 ... that you just kinda get overwhelmed.

Jefferson Fisher 17:01 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 17:01 The next thing you do, you're like, you know, we're, we're just ships in the night, as people say.

Jefferson Fisher 17:05 Yeah. [chuckles]

Speaker 17:05 And you're n- you're not actually stopping and looking each other in the eye and connecting. And that... I mean, it, it can really make you feel lonely. And so we started what we call Bev time, where it's like, we'll put the kids down.

Jefferson Fisher 17:16 Bev time.

Shawn Johnson East 17:16 Bev time.

Speaker 17:16 And the first thing, the f- the first thing we do, it, it was, uh, because we were drinking wine back, back then in the day. But, uh, but we used to put the kids down and then, like, jump on our phones. And then it's like-

Jefferson Fisher 17:28 Yeah

Speaker 17:28 ... there was this feeling of, wow, I, I really wanted to connect.

Jefferson Fisher 17:33 Yes.

Speaker 17:33 And I, I... My, my goal here with this marriage, if I zoom out, is, like, to, to be fully known and fully loved. You know what I'm saying?

Jefferson Fisher 17:40 Hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 17:40 And, uh, we're not really doing that on a day-to-day basis, it doesn't feel like. So we started this time where it's like, kids go down, and we have anywhere from five minutes to forty-five minutes every night where we're just, like, talking, debriefing. Like, tell me about-

Jefferson Fisher 17:55 Yeah

Speaker 17:56 ... all the things that happened, 'cause that is a beautiful part about marriage, where, like-

Jefferson Fisher 18:00 Yeah

Speaker 18:00 ... you're a witness to someone else's life.

Jefferson Fisher 18:02 Yeah.

Speaker 18:02 And, like, all the little highs and lows in the day, it's beautiful.

Jefferson Fisher 18:04 Right.

Speaker 18:04 Your front row seat, man.

Jefferson Fisher 18:05 Yeah.

Speaker 18:05 Like, I wanna hear... I used to be, when I was younger, like, so obsessed with, like, getting things done, being productive, being efficient, and so those kind of conversations just felt like, forgive me, but, like, unnecessary 'cause- I don't know. I didn't, I didn't see the bigger picture, but now I see how- Mm-hmm ... beautiful and colorful that makes life. And [clears throat] I would just love-- W-we get somewhat criticized because people will say, "Well, d- doesn't that come across as too structured and you're losing the spontaneity in life and, like, the, the whimsical romance when you have all these structures and check-ins and these systems and goals?" And, uh, and in my mind, I would like to be as strategic with my family life, my marriage, as I am in business. Yeah. Because I know, like, everyone talks about, "Hey, what's our five-year plan in business, and what are our values, and what are, what are our 30-day goals, our 90-day goals?" Right. I, at the very least, I wanna do that same thing for my marriage 'cause it's like, it's like, um, a display of effort to some capacity. And I know that if I don't have those structures or, or systems in place, I resort to being immature and irresponsible- [chuckles] Right. Yeah ... with my free time. Like, I'll, I'll jump on my phone, I'll turn on Netflix- Of course ... I'm scrolling and, and then you're like, you know, z- fast forward five years, you're like, "Wait, w- I missed the whole point." Right. "I missed it all," so. Yeah. Life, life is lived well when it's built well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the same thing for, for marriage. Yeah, I-- it, it can be rigid, but like a good piece of furniture. Like, you gotta have-

Shawn Johnson East 19:37 Mm-hmm

Speaker 19:37 ... good bones on it-

Shawn Johnson East 19:38 Mm-hmm

Speaker 19:38 ... or it's gonna be hard to-

Shawn Johnson East 19:40 Mm

Speaker 19:40 ... hard to sit in, I think. So I- Preach ... I, I am, I am all about that kind of, that kind of setup. Before we get going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Mill. Now, Mill has been in our kitchen. Now, it looks like a trash can. It is not, all right? It's the thing that changes the way your kitchen is going to run. We've had it now for probably eight months. Not only does the whole family love it, my kids love it. What is Mill? Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler that handles the cleanup after dinner is over. So all... What does that mean? When you have a, a plate that's your kinda leftovers and you have scraps, you just scrape it down into the Mill, and overnight the Mill turns it into grounds, shelf-stable grounds, and it's awesome. It doesn't smell. We thought it was gonna smell. It doesn't. We thought it was gonna be loud. It was not. Like, every thought, we were like, "Ah," it's, it's totally covered. And the packaging is awesome. Let me just tell you, you know a company's gonna be good when their packaging is, is awesome. So I would say the thing that surprised me the most about Mill is just how well, top to bottom, the product has worked. We've been really, really happy with it. Also, I didn't really consider how good it would feel to know that your decision of not adding to a bunch of waste is helping, helping the environment. In fact, Mill has already helped divert over 15 million pounds of food. That's a lot of food, and that's a lot of good that we're doing for the world. So try Mill risk-free for 90 days and get $75 off at mill.com/jefferson,

Speaker 21:13 and use code Jefferson at checkout. That's $75 off at mill.com/jefferson. Use code Jefferson. That's mill.com/jefferson. Use code Jefferson. And now, let's keep going. And I w- I wanna make sure, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to, to bring y'all to my community and audience, is because of the book that y'all have coming out, which the fact that y'all have written this together-

Shawn Johnson East 21:36 Yeah.

Speaker 21:37 [laughs] If I can give y'all all the props for that- Yeah ... first off. It's called The Courage To Commit: Embrace the Radical Power of Sticking With Something. And I thought, man, how incredible because so many times when we kind of absorb marriage advice, relationship advice, we're always looking for, I think you said before, like, the hack.

Shawn Johnson East 22:01 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 22:01 Like, we're looking for that, what's that one little nugget that's just gonna magically change-

Shawn Johnson East 22:07 Mm-hmm

Speaker 22:07 ... everything, when the truth is the hack is the commitment.

Shawn Johnson East 22:11 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 22:11 It is choosing to commit regardless- Yeah. [clears throat] ... of, in spite of knowing full well that that's what's gonna-

Shawn Johnson East 22:19 Mm-hmm

Speaker 22:20 ... make all the difference. So te-tell me, when you think of the courage to commit, how, how have y'all made that in your own- [laughs] How have you made that happen in your own life? Hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 22:30 By everything we just talked about.

Speaker 22:31 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 22:32 Truly s- like, working through it and working through all the problems. And I feel like it... I feel like everybody knows it, right? Everybody knows that to be an elite athlete, you have to commit to a sport, and you have to work through the hard days and the grind, and, like, that's a very stereotypical story-

Speaker 22:53 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 22:53 ... you hear, and people know about it. We had gone through that, and we had lived through that, and w- yet we still found ourselves with certain things, saying, "We just need to go find, you know, the next thing to make us happy-

Speaker 23:08 Hmm

Shawn Johnson East 23:08 ... and that's gonna fix the problem."

Speaker 23:09 The next thing. Hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 23:11 Instead of saying, "You know what? Let's just work through the really uncomfortable valley, and if we can get through it, let's see what's on the other side." And there were so many times in our life with business and with our kids and even with our marriage, and there still will be. We haven't mastered anything-

Speaker 23:30 Yeah

Shawn Johnson East 23:30 ... by any means, but we've, I think we've-

Speaker 23:31 Yeah

Shawn Johnson East 23:32 ... we're starting to see the through line. But it seemed like every time we did that, we kinda hunkered down and said-

Speaker 23:39 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 23:39 ... "Let's figure it out. Let's get through this roadblock," it just became better and more fruitful and more joyful and more purposeful on the other side. And I think even in our marriage, whenever it starts to get hard, it's like, "Okay, I'm not going to avoid it. We're actually gonna confront it, and we're gonna figure out how to work through it, and we're gonna find, um... I don't know, just we're just gonna keep chugging along."

Speaker 24:07 Yeah. Yeah. There was a point in my life after I finished playing football, um, it, it's hard to transition out of athletics 'cause it's so intense, and there's, there's such an infrastructure, like Shawn was saying, of coaches and nutritionists and your workout plan, your diet- Mm-hmm ... your friend group. All of it is in this, like, really intense orbit of athletics. And then you leave it, and you're like, "I don't have anybody to hang out with. I don't know what to do with my time." And in that weird phase after I was done playing, [clears throat] I realized that I was, I was really struggling, not because I, I had ... chosen anything wrong. It was just because I wasn't making a choice at all.

Shawn Johnson East 24:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 24:42 And, um, a- and like I needed to do something. I needed to take the next step, but I was so paralyzed by trying to analyze which choice is the best when really there was a ton of good choices, and it was up to me to, like, make one good choice the great choice.

Shawn Johnson East 24:57 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 24:57 And all I needed to do was, like, go with one-

Shawn Johnson East 25:00 Mm-hmm

Speaker 25:00 ... and walk down that path. And, uh, so we're definitely not writing this book as experts, like Shawn said. It's more of an, uh, you know, we're, we're students along with the readers, and it was really fun to kinda revisit some of the stories in our life where, um, we had done this well and done it poorly. But I, I... It's so easy, uh, especially, you know, in any life transition, to get excited by the new thing or the better thing. And, um, I, I would love for the takeaway from this book to be that like, hey, the, the maintenance costs are probably gonna be lower-

Shawn Johnson East 25:37 Mm-hmm

Speaker 25:37 ... than the startup costs.

Shawn Johnson East 25:39 Yeah.

Speaker 25:39 So, like, don't, don't be always jumping, looking for the next new thing. Just like, what if you just stuck to this thing, put your head down, and understood that there's, there's valleys, there's peaks. And when you, when you accumulate all those, you build this deep meaning at the end of this when you're like, you've, you've committed to one thing, whether that be a career, a relationship, a hobby, whatever. Um, it, it's like really beautiful, and, and it leads to this journey that, uh, I think has, has brought so much fruit to our life.

Jefferson Fisher 26:11 Sierra says something once we were in an argument.

Shawn Johnson East 26:13 [chuckles]

Speaker 26:14 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 26:15 Yeah, I don't know, I don't know y'all know anything about that. And I was... had gotten kind of down about it, you know, just the old bad scripts of, like, just hard to see the positive side. And what she said-

Speaker 26:32 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 26:32 Well, she said, "Well, either way it's good." Like, can we get to a place where it's either way it's good?

Shawn Johnson East 26:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:37 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 26:37 And then that really just hit me square in the face. And I feel like this book, The Courage To Commit, really touches on that type of mentality of, one, it takes courage. Second of all, it's, it's committing to the goal-

Speaker 26:56 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 26:56 ... to the marriage, the relationship-

Shawn Johnson East 26:57 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 26:57 ... knowing that there will be failures, knowing that there is gonna be the low valleys-

Shawn Johnson East 27:04 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 27:04 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 27:04 ... and you're gonna see the raw, the ugly, the I can't believe this. But at the same time, you get to learn so much more about this person.

Speaker 27:13 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 27:13 'Cause I feel like sometimes it-- The mistake I made early on, I've made lots, is, is thinking selfishly of the impact to myself rather than trying to appreciate the difference in the personality-

Shawn Johnson East 27:32 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 27:33 ... of how she interprets it-

Speaker 27:34 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 27:34 ... and how she handles it. Like, what can I learn about this personality-

Shawn Johnson East 27:38 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 27:39 ... and this human and this person that I love, rather than the making it into zero sum, like grabbing the steering wheel-

Shawn Johnson East 27:47 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 27:47 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 27:47 ... back. 'Cause you can really do that in conflict too.

Shawn Johnson East 27:50 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 27:50 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 27:50 Like in a... For two people that are used to high pressure and, like you said, stubborn.

Shawn Johnson East 27:55 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 27:55 And 'cause I'm sure only one of y'all is.

Shawn Johnson East 27:58 Yeah. [chuckles]

Jefferson Fisher 27:58 It's, it, you know, it's-

Speaker 27:59 Don't look at me when you say that.

Jefferson Fisher 28:00 It's, it's-

Speaker 28:02 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 28:02 You can, you can get in the habit of grabbing the steering wheel in conflict-

Shawn Johnson East 28:05 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 28:06 ... too.

Speaker 28:06 Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Zocdoc. Now, if you're listening, most likely you have some kind of doctor's appointment, dentist appointment of some type that you know you need to be scheduling, but you haven't yet. Because that was me, right? Mine was dermatologists. I know with my family history and skin cancer, I should be going to a dermatologist. That was one of those appointments that I just kept putting off. Well, Zocdoc changed all of that. It is a free app that not only helps you set an appointment, it makes sure that those providers are in-network. So we're talking about booking in-network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. So whether you're looking for dermatology, like me, dentistry, primary care, eye do- eye care, or one of the other 200 specialties offered by Zocdoc, you can easily search by specialty or symptom to build the care team that's right for you. Finding and booking high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone that you'll love. You will be able to see all their patient reviews, how they handle things, and the best thing is Zocdoc will actually set the appointment for you. So that's awesome. And I'm a big fan. I'm personally a big fan of anything that removes friction from doing something really important, like setting a doctor's appointment. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That is Z-O-C-D-O-C.com/jefferson. Zocdoc.com/jefferson. Now, let's keep going.

Jefferson Fisher 29:37 Knowing that in marriage you're going to have conflict-

Shawn Johnson East 29:39 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 29:40 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 29:41 ... how do you handle it with this mindset of having the courage to commit?

Shawn Johnson East 29:47 I think I might answer this in a different way, but one of the hardest parts about writing this book was taking the joy and the purpose and the fruit of all the hard work we've put in so far, and then backtracking and explaining how we got here. And so I think to answer your question, we, over the course of 10 years, have had such a privilege of failing miserably at arguments and inde-indecisiveness and business failures. But we've had such the privilege of every time that's happened, we've tried to go find what we're used to, which is, like, a really good coach, a really good mentor, a really good therapist. And we've tried to equip ourselves with all of these tools and this knowledge to be able to attack arguments and valleys better in any phase or category of life. So the hardest part and my favorite part, and I think the answer to the question is- We tried to take all of that wisdom that we've learned from other people-

Speaker 30:51 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 30:51 ... not that we've-

Speaker 30:52 Yeah

Shawn Johnson East 30:52 ... you know, come up with ourselves, and put it into like a how-to and why in the book, and we've actually dissected how we go about it, how we go about implementing a new commitment and then sticking with it. And when it gets really hard and we start fighting about it, what rhythms and routines we can put into place to kind of protect that and make that argument easier to get through.

Speaker 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 31:17 And I mean, we've, we've kind of gone down to the, the smallest example of we didn't like that our family was watching a lot of TV.

Speaker 31:27 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 31:28 But we wanted to commit to not watching as much TV, and then how do we actually make that happen? And we even talked about how we took out a TV of our-- we took out the main TV in our living room, like in our hosting space.

Speaker 31:40 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 31:41 And we thought it was crazy, and it caused an argument. But then we looked back three weeks later and we were like, "You know what? Our kids aren't asking for it. We're actually connecting more." And there's like all of these little examples, but I think within our arguments in our marriage, we've implemented an infrastructure of, you know what? This argument has gotten so heated over something so silly. Let's go back to kind of the tools that we've learned and start there and work our way to the agreement, I guess. Does that make sense?

Speaker 32:13 The, your question makes me think of like the, the idea of grabbing the steering wheel back, um, for me has always come out of a place of like this desperation or maybe this urgency of like, "Oh no, but I can't let you do this, th-this to me right now." And it makes me think of, uh, Sh-Shawn talks about how she had to do something like sixteen thousand reps to, to stick this certain movement on a balance beam, which I think is the craziest-

Shawn Johnson East 32:39 [chuckles]

Speaker 32:39 ... I think that's the craziest, uh, event in any sport-

Shawn Johnson East 32:42 Yeah

Speaker 32:42 ... where you're trying to do back flips on a four-inch wide beam. But, uh, just this concept that she's not gonna get it right the first time, and it's gonna-- Actually, she's not even gonna do it on the balance beam the first time. It's like this growing process and like there's this try, fail, try, fail, try, fail that's not, that's not urgent. It's, it's over the course of years that you learn this.

Shawn Johnson East 33:04 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 33:04 And when I started applying that concept to how we had conversations, it made me a little more curious, uh, to, to like view it from a third-party audience member kind of perspective of like, "Oh, okay, well, this is just a rep." We're, we're, we're having this conversation. We've had the same argument about one specific topic, which is our-

Shawn Johnson East 33:25 Which one?

Speaker 33:26 ... which are our dogs.

Shawn Johnson East 33:28 [laughs]

Speaker 33:28 Uh, probably like the same conversation two hundred times.

Shawn Johnson East 33:31 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 33:31 How many dogs do y'all have?

Speaker 33:32 Two now.

Shawn Johnson East 33:33 Two.

Speaker 33:33 Yeah. And, uh-

Jefferson Fisher 33:34 Okay. What's, what are the names of these dogs?

Speaker 33:36 [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 33:36 Oh, do we have the same dogs?

Jefferson Fisher 33:38 Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm concerned about. No, I'm kidding. We don't have the same dogs.

Speaker 33:42 Two golden retrievers.

Shawn Johnson East 33:42 We have two golden retrievers, Nash and Oakley.

Jefferson Fisher 33:43 That's cool.

Speaker 33:44 But it's funny. You're like, "Okay, I'm frustrated." I, I, I was at one point frustrated because it's like, why are we still talking about this?

Shawn Johnson East 33:51 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 33:51 Yeah.

Speaker 33:52 We've talked about this so many times. And then when you zoom out and you're like, "Okay, this is just a rep," like this is just a practice rep. How can I learn from this? What am I, what am I getting inflamed by, and what am I saying that she gets inflamed by? And then let's-- next time when we have this conversation, let's just like keep that in mind, and we'll maybe tweak that one next time, just like she does with her back flip on a balance beam. "Oh, let's tweak this, and we'll move our, our foot placement here, and we'll maybe, you know, rotate a little harder."

Jefferson Fisher 34:19 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 34:19 Let's just make little tweaks. And when you, when you compound that over time, and you give it a runway to do that by committing to, to something for an extended period of time and not just like-

Jefferson Fisher 34:30 Yeah

Speaker 34:30 ... one date or whatever, one rep trying to do a back flip, it really allows you to, to like see the change happen. So we argue better now. We argue still often now.

Shawn Johnson East 34:42 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 34:42 [laughs]

Speaker 34:42 But it's like-

Jefferson Fisher 34:43 Yeah

Speaker 34:43 ... it's with a different mentality of like-

Jefferson Fisher 34:45 Right

Speaker 34:45 ... it takes the edge off.

Jefferson Fisher 34:46 Yeah. I think, but I think that's, that's the point, though, is like y-you will argue.

Shawn Johnson East 34:51 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 34:51 You will have conflict.

Speaker 34:52 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 34:52 And you know that makes you better.

Speaker 34:53 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 34:54 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 34:54 It's like you, you have to sometimes celebrate the commitment. Like-

Speaker 34:58 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 34:58 ... to be in the moment where you're flooded and you're just-

Shawn Johnson East 35:02 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 35:02 ... you're thinking of all the things that you want to say, and then you have to realize like, "Man, we did not handle this well."

Shawn Johnson East 35:10 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 35:10 But we can at least like celebrate the commitment.

Speaker 35:13 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 35:13 You know? We can at least have some-

Speaker 35:14 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 35:14 ... grace to the fact that we're, we're still committed to this, and can we at least celebrate that? Like give us a little bit of kudos that we're still-

Speaker 35:21 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 35:21 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 35:21 ... still doing this.

Speaker 35:23 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 35:23 Uh, because I think a lot of people just, they hit that eject button really-

Shawn Johnson East 35:28 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 35:28 ... really early when it, it really just takes... I'm talking about some deep-- You, you better dig deep if you're gonna be doing this-

Shawn Johnson East 35:36 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 35:36 ... because you're gonna have some stuff that you go, "I had no-- I was not prepared for the way this is feeling."

Speaker 35:41 Mm.

Shawn Johnson East 35:41 Also, on a, like a lighter note, a bit darker, that's why we wrote the book.

Jefferson Fisher 35:46 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 35:46 Culture is very odd right now, where I feel like culture is trying to teach everybody that that's not normal.

Jefferson Fisher 35:54 Committing, yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 35:55 Committing and hardship.

Jefferson Fisher 35:56 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 35:56 People, I feel like in today's culture, keep preaching this idea of if you commit to something, then it shouldn't be hard. And if it's not hard, you know you have the right-- you chose the right thing. And it's so opposite of that. I think no matter what you choose, it's going to be very difficult. But the longer you stay committed to it, the more joyful and the more fruitful it w-it will be. I mean, I, I fell in love with gymnastics at the age of three, and it was so hard.

Jefferson Fisher 36:28 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 36:29 And I even tried quitting multiple times, and I would quit for a week, and I'd be like, "You know what? I really like it, and I really want to go back." But every time I would push through something, it would be more joyful. And I just think culture has got it wrong, and it's, it's frustrating to witness.

Jefferson Fisher 36:48 I think that is so well said, Shawn, to, to be that- We-- I do think you're right, where if it doesn't come easy, you, it, then you shouldn't just really do it.

Shawn Johnson East 36:59 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 36:59 But it's, it's, it's not that at all. It's, it's that exact contrast that makes it worth-

Shawn Johnson East 37:04 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 37:04 ... doing. 'Cause if everything was easy, then-

Shawn Johnson East 37:07 Yeah. It wouldn't be fun.

Jefferson Fisher 37:09 Yeah. Then there wouldn't be, I don't think, the, the fruit, the joy-

Shawn Johnson East 37:12 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 37:13 ... out of it.

Shawn Johnson East 37:14 And I think if people just keep believing that, then they'll never find anything.

Jefferson Fisher 37:18 Tell me more.

Shawn Johnson East 37:20 In the sense of, like, if, if someone is searching in business, in life, in a hobby, in a m- marriage or relationship for the perfect, the perfect easy commitment-

Jefferson Fisher 37:32 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 37:32 ... of whatever it is, you will never find it, because you will find yourself in a relationship or a business where you're like, "This is so easy. It's meant to be." And you're gonna hit your first roadblock and start doubting that you made the right choice. Instead of saying, "Bring it on."

Jefferson Fisher 37:48 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 37:48 "Let me get through it and prove to you that I still love this."

Jefferson Fisher 37:52 Do you-

Shawn Johnson East 37:52 And I think that's why people quit stuff so much anymore.

Jefferson Fisher 37:56 You, do you find any kind of, uh, I-- Knowing that this is exactly what you wrote the book about, uh, do you find that there is some of those parallels between what y'all know to be, to have the, the mindset of an Olympian or pro athlete or whatever, and then now applying those same kind of principles to marriage? 'Cause it's another thing-

Shawn Johnson East 38:24 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 38:24 ... of like gymnastics. You said gymnastics is hard. It's really not doing. Marriage, marriage is-

Shawn Johnson East 38:30 Harder [laughing]

Jefferson Fisher 38:30 I don't know. Yeah. I, I haven't done gymnastics.

Shawn Johnson East 38:33 It's harder than gymnastics. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 38:33 Like, I, I can-

Shawn Johnson East 38:34 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 38:34 I remember once somebody... I was on the trampoline, and I, I was gonna try and do a backflip, and they're like, "You just gotta commit." Like, committed myself to the ER, y'all.

Shawn Johnson East 38:42 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 38:42 Like, that's not gonna work. But I can, I can, I have to believe that hearing from y'all that, yeah, being the top of my, my world was hard. Marriage is harder. Hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 38:58 Yeah. Marriage is a lot harder.

Jefferson Fisher 39:00 Really?

Shawn Johnson East 39:01 Well... [laughing]

Jefferson Fisher 39:02 [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 39:02 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 39:04 Oh.

Shawn Johnson East 39:04 Uh, there's a lot of principles you can apply, but it's, it's different-

Jefferson Fisher 39:10 Yeah

Shawn Johnson East 39:11 ... because there's so many more variables.

Jefferson Fisher 39:14 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 39:15 You're taking two different human beings and trying to figure out life together, and we change a lot every year, every day, with every kid, with every business.

Jefferson Fisher 39:28 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 39:28 So the variables just keep changing.

Speaker 39:29 Dude, I always laugh at, you know, in our world, there's all these, like, health gurus or, um-

Shawn Johnson East 39:33 Yeah

Speaker 39:34 ... self-improvement gurus-

Jefferson Fisher 39:35 Yeah

Speaker 39:35 ... where it's like, [inhales] "If you wanna, if you wanna be your best self, then you wake up-"

Shawn Johnson East 39:38 Yeah.

Speaker 39:38 "... at 4:00 AM, you take an ice bath-"

Jefferson Fisher 39:39 Yeah.

Speaker 39:39 "... you get your morning workout in, do your breathwork or meditation."

Jefferson Fisher 39:42 Right. [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 39:42 Yeah.

Speaker 39:42 It's like, no, dude-

Jefferson Fisher 39:43 Stay in the sun. Yeah.

Speaker 39:44 Yeah. If you... And, and, you know, they're talking about it's important to be uncomfortable.

Jefferson Fisher 39:47 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Johnson East 39:47 Yeah.

Speaker 39:47 It's like, dude, if you wanna be uncomfortable and be your best self, marriage, bro. That is like-

Jefferson Fisher 39:51 I'm telling you

Speaker 39:51 ... every day you're looking at yourself in the mirror, and you got some- you got someone else.

Jefferson Fisher 39:55 Yeah.

Speaker 39:56 You're like, "All right. [exhales] This is uncomfortable, but it leads to the growth."

Jefferson Fisher 39:58 And I feel like most of the guys saying that are guys that are not married.

Speaker 40:01 Yeah. [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 40:01 For sure. Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 40:01 You know what I'm saying? So it's like, hey, you, get married and have some kids.

Speaker 40:05 Dude.

Shawn Johnson East 40:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 40:05 And then, then come back to me.

Shawn Johnson East 40:07 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 40:07 Then, then come back to me about that.

Speaker 40:08 But it makes you better, dude.

Jefferson Fisher 40:09 Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 40:10 It makes you better.

Jefferson Fisher 40:10 The courage-

Speaker 40:11 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 40:11 ... to commit. Um, I'm really proud of y'all putting this message out. I think it's a-

Shawn Johnson East 40:18 Thank you

Jefferson Fisher 40:19 ... it's a message that needs to be said, and I think it's a book... You know, they, they talk about books that come at the, the right time, uh, in the right way, and I think this is, this is spot on. This is a book that people need to hear, myself included, Sierra included.

Shawn Johnson East 40:33 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 40:33 Lots of couples in the... You know, of, of it, it really is. It, it's, it's not just the commitment. There's also the courage part.

Shawn Johnson East 40:39 Thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 40:39 That that is not easy. And y'all, it took a lot of courage to-

Speaker 40:41 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 40:41 ... to write this book and put this out, 'cause y'all could have written about all kinds of different things.

Speaker 40:45 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 40:46 Right? Uh, but y'all, y'all wrote this, so I'm, um, I'm excited to share this with my community. And thank you all so much for-

Shawn Johnson East 40:52 Yeah.

Speaker 40:52 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 40:52 ... sitting down and talking with me.

Shawn Johnson East 40:54 Thanks for having us.

Speaker 40:55 Do you mind if I share, if I close this out and share one last visual here?

Jefferson Fisher 40:58 Let's do it. Yes.

Shawn Johnson East 40:59 Oh, wow. Another analogy?

Speaker 40:59 I know, I know. I'm sorry.

Jefferson Fisher 41:00 Let's go.

Shawn Johnson East 41:00 Oh, God.

Jefferson Fisher 41:01 Well, I'd love to just... Well, no, if you-- Go ahead, Shawn. I'm just gonna keep talking. [laughs]

Shawn Johnson East 41:05 Exactly.

Speaker 41:05 Yeah, yeah. One big... I don't know, take us over time here. Uh, I'll never forget watching Indiana Jones, and there's this scene where Indiana Jones is on, on this cliff.

Jefferson Fisher 41:14 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 41:14 And he's trying to get to the other side. And to get there, he has to take this leap of faith. He has to have the courage to, like, step in-

Jefferson Fisher 41:22 Mm-hmm

Speaker 41:23 ... to, to what he's been told is this invisible bridge to the other side.

Jefferson Fisher 41:26 Mm.

Speaker 41:27 And, and to me, that's what I hope this book inspires is, like, hey, you, like, you don't know. You can't tell for sure until you jump in and, and you, like, come on in, the wa- the water's fine. You know?

Jefferson Fisher 41:39 Yeah.

Speaker 41:39 It's like you have to take the step. You have to take the leap of faith in order to get to that other thing, to get to the other side, whether it's a relationship, like the meaningful business, build, build that thing. It's like you have to take the leap of faith, and you have to have the courage, and then you have to put your full weight down on that thing. And, and, uh, anyway, I appreciate you, uh, you having us on. You, you-

Jefferson Fisher 41:59 Yeah.

Speaker 41:59 ... the communication guru, so this has been a real treat.

Jefferson Fisher 42:02 No, no. [laughs]

Speaker 42:02 And, uh-

Jefferson Fisher 42:02 No, no.

Speaker 42:02 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 42:02 I don't wanna-

Speaker 42:03 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 42:03 ... keep that guru thing out there.

Speaker 42:05 [laughing]

Jefferson Fisher 42:05 I'm not that. No, I, and I do wanna make sure and, and ask this question. Who, who... When you think of who you wrote this book for, who, who are the people that come to mind? I was gonna tell you, you can look at me and Sierra for one.

Speaker 42:17 It's you. It's you, Jefferson.

Jefferson Fisher 42:19 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 42:19 I mean, it's [laughing] ... I'm a mom. The very first thing that came to mind is, like, my kids and their future.

Jefferson Fisher 42:25 Yeah. Mm.

Shawn Johnson East 42:26 But anybody s- stuck wanting to feel probably just more purpose in life, which sounds crazy, but we have so many friends who are shopping for the perfect person, and there's... I, I know a friend who's probably brought three different potential partners to us over the past eight years-

Jefferson Fisher 42:48 Mm-hmm

Shawn Johnson East 42:49 ... who all could have been so wonderful.

Jefferson Fisher 42:51 Yeah.

Shawn Johnson East 42:51 But people are so afraid of making the wrong choice, and I think you need to start being obsessed with making a choice and figuring it out, and that's just not what culture wants us to do right now, so.

Jefferson Fisher 43:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 43:03 That's awesome.

Jefferson Fisher 43:04 Yeah. Thank you all-

Shawn Johnson East 43:05 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 43:05 ... so much for your time.

Shawn Johnson East 43:06 Thank you.

Speaker 43:06 Thank you for checking us out.

Jefferson Fisher 43:06 Yeah, guys.

Speaker 43:07 Thank you.