Clinical Psychologist: How To Set Boundaries ft. Dr. Henry Cloud

1. 0:01 – 1:21

   Your body’s built-in “safety alarm” as the first boundary signal

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:01

      When does somebody know that they should say, "You know what this needs? This needs a boundary."

   2. HCDr. Henry Cloud0:06

      You're wired with a system.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:08

      Mm-hmm.

   4. HCDr. Henry Cloud0:09

      That from your spinal cord all the way through your gut and your neurophysiology, the neurochemistry, all of that system, like a security alarm system, is running 24/7 asking one question: Am I safe?

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:26

      Hmm.

   6. HCDr. Henry Cloud0:27

      That's what the human organism has got to know all the time. I mean, y- you've been breathing for the last-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher0:34

      Yeah, didn't even know

   8. HCDr. Henry Cloud0:36

      ... careless. You can trust... Y- you know, you don't have to watch your back.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher0:39

      Yeah.

   10. HCDr. Henry Cloud0:39

       But if you smelled a fume, [snaps finger] that system would kick in and say, "Hit pause." So when you say, "When's it time for a boundary?" Your system is going to tell you. It's... Something doesn't feel good here.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher0:55

       Yeah.

   12. HCDr. Henry Cloud0:55

       They're violating your property, either your head, your heart, your mind, or your soul. It's getting a little bit, something doesn't feel right. Now, you may be crazy. W- we... Just 'cause you're not paranoid doesn't, you know. [laughs]

   13. JFJefferson Fisher1:07

       Right. Sure.

   14. HCDr. Henry Cloud1:08

       Sometimes we get scared when we shouldn't be, but a lot of times, we... It... All the time, is we need s- need to stop, pause. You're very good at this, in-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher1:16

       Hmm

   16. HCDr. Henry Cloud1:16

       ... in helping people. You don't have to answer right now.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher1:20

       Yeah.

2. 1:21 – 2:12

   Boundaries as self/other differentiation (and stopping control attempts)

   1. HCDr. Henry Cloud1:21

      Boundaries are about differentiating yourself from the other. There's self and other. And so people are trying to control you or manipulate you, they're trying to get to the steering wheel of your car.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher1:34

      [laughs] Yeah.

   3. HCDr. Henry Cloud1:35

      Somehow.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher1:36

      Yeah.

   5. HCDr. Henry Cloud1:37

      Roll up the window. Stay in your lane. Take a minute. If you're hearing something from your... It could be your feelings. It could be your gut. It could be what you think about what they said. We have a lot of different boundaries, but that's... When to do it. Well, first become self-aware.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher1:54

      Oh.

   7. HCDr. Henry Cloud1:56

      That would help.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher1:56

      Yeah, that would help.

   9. HCDr. Henry Cloud1:57

      [laughs]

   10. JFJefferson Fisher1:57

       That would help, and I love that you used your property. Like, I think that's-

   11. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:01

       Well, you're a lawyer.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher2:02

       Yeah.

   13. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:03

       What... Where's the boundary or the property-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher2:06

       Right

   15. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:07

       ... to determine, when the tree falls, who's responsible for that?

   16. JFJefferson Fisher2:11

       Exactly.

   17. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:12

       Yeah.

3. 2:12 – 4:28

   “Property lines”: what boundaries protect and what they keep out

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:12

      You know, what's, what's the perimeter, what's your, what's your border? And not only for land, but, uh, also in, in terms of what they, they call chattel, like your, your actual... Does it... My phone-

   2. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:24

      Your stuff

   3. JFJefferson Fisher2:24

      ... is my... Your stuff. My clothes, my, my food, my, my family, my friends. Like, there's, uh-

   4. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:29

      Okay, that's a good... That's a perfect. You said-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher2:32

      Yeah

   6. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:32

      ... you know, when do you... Well, y- your boundaries, your property line does two things. It keeps the good stuff in and safe, and it keeps the bad stuff out. It's why you have a fence.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher2:44

      Yeah.

   8. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:44

      So what's the chattel? The good stuff. Your feelings, your attitudes, your behaviors, your choices, your limits, your values, your desires, your thoughts, and the things you love.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher2:56

      Hmm.

   10. HCDr. Henry Cloud2:57

       So your boundaries are there to protect, and those can be your signals. If something feels right, or if I'm... Can somebody get me to behave in a way or make a choice I don't want, or this really is not something I desire, or now they're screwing my thinking. [laughs]

   11. JFJefferson Fisher3:12

       Yeah.

   12. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:13

       Which gaslighting does-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher3:14

       Sure

   14. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:15

       ... among other things, or guilt, manipulation.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher3:17

       Yeah, or shame. I mean, like-

   16. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:18

       Yeah

   17. JFJefferson Fisher3:19

       ... I think... Makes me think of when you see your friend being nice to somebody else, you're like, "Hold up, that's, that's my friend." Like, you, you [laughs] know what I mean?

   18. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:29

       [laughs]

   19. JFJefferson Fisher3:29

       Like, it's easy because it's not just within your body. It also expands to those whom you-

   20. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:34

       Right

   21. JFJefferson Fisher3:35

       ... whom you love. You go, "They're now in my circle."

   22. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:38

       Yeah.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher3:38

       And so when you, you have that, it goes, "Okay, that's, that's the push." But y- I, I love that you used the word-

   24. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:42

       Well, who do you want l- moving into your neighborhood?

   25. JFJefferson Fisher3:44

       Exactly. Of like, what's your, your heart, mind, your gut, your center? I just feel something, and that's when it's... Your body goes, "Something is off." And just the way that we breathe and our heart beats, that system of, "I need to feel safe," operates 24/7.

   26. HCDr. Henry Cloud3:58

       24/7.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher3:59

       Even when you're asleep, you hear a noise-

   28. HCDr. Henry Cloud4:01

       What happens if you hear a noise?

   29. JFJefferson Fisher4:02

       Exactly, and you, like, perk up, and you go, "What, what was that? How did that... " And what's crazy is, I didn't even think about this, like, you know when that's... That creaky... You know, that one stair that always creaks, or the, that fan or that refrigerator noise. That doesn't-

   30. HCDr. Henry Cloud4:19

       Sure.
4. 4:28 – 4:59

   Trust your instincts: same words, different intent, different boundary need

   1. HCDr. Henry Cloud4:28

      So good. And you... I mean, that's so good because take two different people.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher4:35

      Yeah.

   3. HCDr. Henry Cloud4:36

      One of them, i- you know, you know they're kind of quirky. Sometimes they say stuff that... But you, you trust them and you know they're good.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:41

      Sure.

   5. HCDr. Henry Cloud4:42

      Somebody else can say the same thing, and your senses know when that person says that, they're out to get something from you.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher4:52

      Right.

   7. HCDr. Henry Cloud4:53

      When that person says that, they, they're just my screwed up friend.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher4:56

      Exactly.

   9. HCDr. Henry Cloud4:57

      You know who to... You know when to open the door and when to close it.

5. 4:59 – 6:28

   Prepare your boundary conversation: scripts, role-play, and support

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:59

      For sure. Oh, yeah. I think there's, there's, um, there's a lot there, and we talked about the timing. When do you know you should do a boundary? Second, I wanna kind of move towards when you... I know how I frame boundaries and people frame it. In, in, in other words, the words to use because-

   2. HCDr. Henry Cloud5:19

      Well, that's where, you know, I, I gotta tell you guys, I mean, you... Are you really good-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:25

      Thank you

   4. HCDr. Henry Cloud5:25

      ... at giving... People need... I tell people all the time, before a difficult conversation-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:30

      Hmm

   6. HCDr. Henry Cloud5:31

      ... if you're not good at this, other than watch Jefferson. Well... And you can watch Jefferson do this.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher5:37

      Yeah.

   8. HCDr. Henry Cloud5:38

      Sit down and get a script.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher5:41

      Write it out.

   10. HCDr. Henry Cloud5:42

       Because that's... You know, your language centers in your brain actually map a lot of behavior, and you should get a few of these lines, like you-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher5:51

       Right

   12. HCDr. Henry Cloud5:51

       ... you give people, and get a script. Secondly, if it's gonna be tough, go role play it with someone.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher5:57

       Hmm.

   14. HCDr. Henry Cloud5:58

       Get a friend to play that difficult, you know what.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher6:00

       Person. Yeah. [laughs]

   16. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:02

       And so you can practice.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher6:03

       Yeah.

   18. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:04

       And then you're gonna be more equipped. And then I tell them to g- you know, get a difficult conversation sandwich. Before you talk to that person, meet with your, your shrink or your support-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher6:14

       Right

   20. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:15

       ... friend or whatever. Talk about what you said. Know what you gotta go out of there having said and what you don't wanna say.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher6:21

       Right.

   22. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:22

       Go in there and do it, and promise them your own column afterwards. It's amazing what that will do.

6. 6:28 – 8:25

   Start with clarity: “What do you want?” (Alice in Wonderland lesson)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:28

      I, when I think of when, when someone goes, "How do I, you know, put a boundary in with their boss?" It, it always goes to, "Well, what do, what do you ask and what are you wanting to do?" 'Cause a lot of the times they don't know that.

   2. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:42

      Imagine-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:43

      Yeah

   4. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:43

      ... asking that question [laughs] .

   5. JFJefferson Fisher6:44

      Exactly. It's the first question.

   6. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:45

      What do you want?

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:45

      And they go, "Well, I, I didn't really think about that. You know, let me, let me think." I go, "Well, let's, let's start there."

   8. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:50

      You-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher6:51

      You know, let's start there

   10. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:51

       ... remember in Alice in Wonderland?

   11. JFJefferson Fisher6:52

       Yeah.

   12. HCDr. Henry Cloud6:53

       She comes to the fork in the road, Cheshire cat's sitting there. She goes, "Which way do I go?" He goes, "Where are you trying to get to?" She goes, "I don't know." He says, "It doesn't much matter then, does it?"

   13. JFJefferson Fisher7:00

       [laughs] Doesn't matter.

   14. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:01

       No.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher7:01

       Go wherever.

   16. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:02

       And then she says, "Well, I wanna go somewhere." He said, "Oh, you will."

   17. JFJefferson Fisher7:04

       Right.

   18. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:05

       [laughs]

   19. JFJefferson Fisher7:05

       That's right. "I wanna go somewhere."

   20. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:06

       And in a conversation-

   21. JFJefferson Fisher7:08

       Yeah

   22. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:08

       ... especially in significant relationships, especially with a difficult person, it's so important to know what you want in your, on your property, in your life.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher7:18

       Mm-hmm.

   24. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:19

       If you know what you want, and you don't want deception, you don't want control-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher7:23

       Yeah

   26. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:24

       ... you don't want abandonment.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher7:25

       Right.

   28. HCDr. Henry Cloud7:26

       When that shows up, it's a lot easier when you know what you want, and you've hit on a key point. You know, this attorney thing, you should've been a shrink.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher7:34

       [laughs] Yeah. You know what? I, my dad was practically one because he taught me in what they call the Socratic method. That was how, they do that in law school teaching, when the professor asks questions. That was the way I got taught lessons, you know? I'd be upset with Mom about something, and he'd go, "Well, what do you think she's thinking about this?" I'd go, "Come on, that's not what I wanna talk about," you know? I need to be, I need to be angry. And that's, that was never kinda his... Though thankfully, that was never his, his lane. I m- I wanna give you my framework of, I like, and I want you to poke holes in it of something you think I should add.

   30. HCDr. Henry Cloud8:09

       There's that old law school training.
7. 8:25 – 10:14

   A parenting boundary story: “Daddy court fees” and restoring self-control

   1. HCDr. Henry Cloud8:25

      ... about boundaries with your kids.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:28

      Oh, perfect.

   3. HCDr. Henry Cloud8:28

      How, how old are your kids?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:30

      Eight and six.

   5. HCDr. Henry Cloud8:30

      Okay.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher8:31

      My son's eight.

   7. HCDr. Henry Cloud8:31

      Perfect age.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher8:32

      Yeah.

   9. HCDr. Henry Cloud8:32

      My girls are about that age, and, and they, you know, they're, they're coming to you going... And Lucy, the little one, would say, "Dad, Olivia did..." You know?

   10. JFJefferson Fisher8:40

       Yeah.

   11. HCDr. Henry Cloud8:40

       And she, and then Olivia runs, "No, she..." And so they're getting in this thing. And so one day I said, "Hey, girls, just, just stop. L- let me explain this to you. What you have here is called a dispute. Now, a dispute is when you have an argument over something. And what people do with disputes is they take it to the judge, and that's what you've done. So you've brought this dispute into daddy court."

   12. JFJefferson Fisher9:03

       Daddy court. Okay.

   13. HCDr. Henry Cloud9:04

       "And I'm gonna be the judge. All right? And w- what that means is I'm gonna listen to what you say, I'm gonna listen to what she says, and I'm gonna say one of you is right and the other one's wrong, and I'll decide." They go, "Okay." I said, "Well, hang on. Daddy court's not free. There's court fees."

   14. JFJefferson Fisher9:23

       [laughs]

   15. HCDr. Henry Cloud9:23

       And they go, "What do you mean court fees?" I said, "Well, I mean, court co- you know, the judge has gotta get paid. You're renting this courtroom. It's gonna..." And what, and they said, "Well, how much are the court fees?" I said, "It depends on how long the trial goes-"

   16. JFJefferson Fisher9:37

       Yeah. [laughs]

   17. HCDr. Henry Cloud9:37

       "... how complicated it is." And they said, "Well, what, what are they?" I said, "I don't know. I mean, it could cost you your bike or your American Girl doll or-"

   18. JFJefferson Fisher9:44

       Yeah

   19. HCDr. Henry Cloud9:44

       ... your... And, and they literally looked at each other and they said, "That's okay. We'll figure it out."

   20. JFJefferson Fisher9:50

       "We'll figure it out." Oh.

   21. HCDr. Henry Cloud9:52

       So-

   22. JFJefferson Fisher9:52

       That's good

   23. HCDr. Henry Cloud9:53

       ... a boundary will offload the responsibility to the only person who can control it, and then they have to own it. And there you go.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher10:06

       That solved it.

   25. HCDr. Henry Cloud10:06

       All of a sudden they found something called self-control.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher10:08

       All of a sudden they said, "You know what? I think we can figure this out."

   27. HCDr. Henry Cloud10:10

       "I think, I think we can figure this out."

   28. JFJefferson Fisher10:11

       "Figure this out."

   29. HCDr. Henry Cloud10:12

       Why am I taking responsibility for your argument?

8. 10:14 – 11:25

   A simple boundary formula—and why follow-through matters

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:14

      Yeah, no joke. Uh, all right. Here's my, my, my method. It's what I like, is so one, I tell people what we don't, what I don't accept or reject, or I don't permit into my, my border, right? My fence perimeter.

   2. HCDr. Henry Cloud10:30

      Perfect.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher10:31

      Two is I tell them the condition. If this continues, if trespass continues, then three is the consequence.

   4. HCDr. Henry Cloud10:42

      Violators will be prosecuted.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher10:43

      Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And it, it is my... And that's where it comes down to, you have to be willing to do it. Because we know what it's like when somebody goes, "If you say that one more time, I swear I'm going to..." And they don't do it.

   6. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:00

      Sure.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher11:01

      And then the other person goes, "Well, I got you then."

   8. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:03

      It's not a boundary, it's nagging.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher11:05

      Ooh, yeah. That's exactly right. So it could be, "I don't respond to disrespect. If you continue to speak to me disrespectfully-"

   10. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:12

       Yeah

   11. JFJefferson Fisher11:13

       ... this is the end of the conversation." Of like putting that in a box.

   12. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:17

       Perfect.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher11:18

       Okay. That has now been Henry Cloud, Dr. Cloud approved.

   14. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:23

       [laughs]

   15. JFJefferson Fisher11:23

       So remember, this is what I'm gonna put-

   16. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:25

       Well-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher11:25

       ... right underneath it

9. 11:25 – 16:37

   You can’t put a boundary ‘on them’—you put boundaries on yourself

   1. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:25

      ... l- let me dissect something really important here-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher11:27

      Please. Yeah

   3. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:27

      ... that you're doing. Um, what you did was, and this is where a lot of people, a lot of people say, "Well, I'm gonna put a boundary on that person." There's no such thing.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher11:38

      Oh, on that person.

   5. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:39

      On-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher11:39

      Yeah

   7. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:39

      ... and they say it all the time. You can't put a boundary on someone. You put boundaries on yourself.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher11:47

      Yeah.

   9. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:48

      Self-control. You cannot control another person. They can continue to be an idiot or scream or take heroin or whatever it is.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher11:55

       Mm-hmm.

   11. HCDr. Henry Cloud11:56

       And what you did was you said, basically without saying it, you said, "You can continue to disrespect me. I don't allow myself-"

   12. JFJefferson Fisher12:03

       Ah

   13. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:03

       ... to engage with that. And if you do, I will take control of myself and remove myself from this conversation. Now, you can stay here for three weeks talking to air."

   14. JFJefferson Fisher12:15

       Yeah.

   15. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:16

       I just won't be here.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher12:17

       [laughs] Yeah. Absolutely.

   17. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:19

       I mean, your, your map is-

   18. JFJefferson Fisher12:21

       Absolutely

   19. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:21

       ... is real.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher12:22

       Well, I think that's where, and I know you talk about this, of the, the you versus I.

   21. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:29

       Yeah.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher12:29

       And where it's, you, you can't yell at me. Which gives them-

   23. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:35

       Try that

   24. JFJefferson Fisher12:35

       ... all the power and in fact, will only guarantee that they will continue to-

   25. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:38

       Oh, yeah, I can't watch this [laughs]

   26. JFJefferson Fisher12:39

       ... watch this. You think, you think this is yelling?

   27. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:42

       [laughs]

   28. JFJefferson Fisher12:43

       You think, "Yeah, you know what I had to grow up with? You think this is yelling?"

   29. HCDr. Henry Cloud12:46

       [laughs] I love this. Just keep going.

   30. JFJefferson Fisher12:47

       That, that kind of stuff, right?
10. 16:37 – 20:28

    When a relationship must end: hope vs. wish and the evidence for change

    1. JFJefferson Fisher16:37

       necessary?

    2. HCDr. Henry Cloud16:38

       I think the first sentence of the book, I put, "Your today may be the biggest enemy of your tomorrow."

    3. JFJefferson Fisher16:48

       Mm.

    4. HCDr. Henry Cloud16:49

       Meaning, what's going on right now may be incompatible with the tomorrow you wanna have, be that tomorrow or next week or six months from now or 20 years from now. And what's going on right now, it is necessary for that to end if you're going to have the tomorrow you want and not wanna have this same conversation six months from now, a year from... So back to you, you gotta know what you want, and then these things happen. Happens all the time. One of the greatest humans for human virtues is hope.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher17:30

       Mm.

    6. HCDr. Henry Cloud17:32

       Things aren't where they ought to be, but we hope they'll be different. And what I talked about in the book is you've got to learn the difference between a wish and hope.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher17:44

       Mm.

    8. HCDr. Henry Cloud17:45

       A wish means I want them to be different. Hope is objective. Hope has grounding in some reason to hope. And so what you've got to diagnose is when we come to this juncture where this is going on and do I need to end this or should I keep going, you've got to... The worst thing you can do when you're headed down a wrong road is hope that it's gonna turn into the right road. You are down the wrong road.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher18:14

       [laughs] Yeah. Right.

    10. HCDr. Henry Cloud18:15

        It is necessary to end that, turn around, and go back to the beginning. But there is time to have hope, and what you've got to ask ... is, is, is there an objective reason why if I continue in this, it's going to be different? And there are objective factors that you can look for that can tell you that. And if you don't see them, proceed at your own risk-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher18:42

        Right

    12. HCDr. Henry Cloud18:42

        ... which is what you guys put on signs on people's properties, [laughs] right?

    13. JFJefferson Fisher18:46

        That's right.

    14. HCDr. Henry Cloud18:47

        There's alligators, proceed at your own risk.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher18:48

        That's right. Exactly.

    16. HCDr. Henry Cloud18:50

        And, and, and you gotta figure that out. I mean, just a few of them. I've got an actual list in there.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher18:55

        Yes.

    18. HCDr. Henry Cloud18:55

        But the first one was, is there an awareness and an ownership by the other person, an ownership of what they are doing is not okay?

    19. JFJefferson Fisher19:09

        That's key. This first, this ownership element.

    20. HCDr. Henry Cloud19:11

        Ownership.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher19:12

        Yeah.

    22. HCDr. Henry Cloud19:12

        If they are still excusing it, blaming you for it, blaming external factors, minimizing it, all the things that the classic narcissist does.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher19:21

        Mm-hmm.

    24. HCDr. Henry Cloud19:21

        You know, the denial, the minimizing, the excusing, the blaming. If you see that, you are not at the point to have hope because they're the only ones that can change, and you can't change a problem if you don't have one. And if they still think they don't have a problem, get ready for tomorrow to look like today.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher19:42

        Exactly.

    26. HCDr. Henry Cloud19:43

        So if they own it and they understand empathically... You know, trust, trust is in part based on the other person understanding the effect of what they do-

    27. JFJefferson Fisher19:57

        Mm

    28. HCDr. Henry Cloud19:57

        ... has on us, what we need, what hurts us, what... And if they understand it and can get out of their self-centeredness into an awareness of, "I can see this really hurt you."

    29. JFJefferson Fisher20:06

        The acknowledgement.

    30. HCDr. Henry Cloud20:07

        Acknowledgement.
11. 20:28 – 30:17

    A workable repair path: verify change, internal motivation, and gradual re-entry

    1. HCDr. Henry Cloud20:28

       Now we can talk. Okay? Now, if they own it, do they, they really understand what the behavior is. And then if they say, "Okay, I know that hurt you. I'm so sorry. I won't do it anymore," that's not enough. What is new and different that's gonna ensure that won't happen again? If my... If I got a bent axle in my car and it's going like this and I pull over and say, "You're rattling my car," and it says, "Okay, I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore." [laughs] That ain't enough, buddy. [laughs]

    2. JFJefferson Fisher20:58

       [laughs] That ain't gonna do it.

    3. HCDr. Henry Cloud21:00

       So then we've gotta see what is going to be involved in some sort of process to enable them to change. Are they... Do they say, "I'm gonna get a coach. I'm gonna get a therapist. I've got an accountability group. I'm going into treatment."

    4. JFJefferson Fisher21:20

       Mm-hmm.

    5. HCDr. Henry Cloud21:20

       Whatever. We gotta see something new and different that's going to build the capacity for them to be able to do what they're promising us they're gonna do. And then we gotta see them having some sort of a verifiable, um, you know, adherence to that.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher21:39

       Mm.

    7. HCDr. Henry Cloud21:39

       They're actually showing up.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher21:40

       Yeah.

    9. HCDr. Henry Cloud21:40

       Say, "Oh, I'm gonna go to AA or something."

    10. JFJefferson Fisher21:43

        Right.

    11. HCDr. Henry Cloud21:43

        Where are you going? You know?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher21:44

        Right. Exactly.

    13. HCDr. Henry Cloud21:45

        Some, some way to verify that.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher21:45

        Which gives you security. Yeah.

    15. HCDr. Henry Cloud21:47

        Yes. And another one, the motivation to change, it's gotta come from them. If you're having to push them, "You need to go to ther-..." You know, you said you... And you, "Come on, let's go." You can trust-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher22:01

        Yeah

    17. HCDr. Henry Cloud22:01

        ... people who want to be the person you need for them to be, but they want it on their own. Even if you walked away-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher22:12

        Yeah

    19. HCDr. Henry Cloud22:13

        ... they're gonna get sober for themselves.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher22:15

        Right.

    21. HCDr. Henry Cloud22:15

        They're gonna turn into a trustworthy person, 'cause that's the person they wanna be. If you're having to drive it, what happens when you stop pushing?

    22. JFJefferson Fisher22:25

        Yep.

    23. HCDr. Henry Cloud22:25

        So, you know what I mean? You, you've seen this in court.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher22:28

        Sure.

    25. HCDr. Henry Cloud22:29

        Somebody goes to court and you go before the judge and they want, um, you know, some sort of leniency or some sort of pa- And the judge is gonna go, "Well, show me what you plan to do."

    26. JFJefferson Fisher22:42

        Right.

    27. HCDr. Henry Cloud22:42

        You know? "And well, we'll see you in a month, in six months, we'll see if you're sticking to that." And there you go.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher22:49

        Do you find that... By the way, I love all this stuff. I feel like I'm, like, breathing straight oxygen right now.

    29. HCDr. Henry Cloud22:57

        [laughs]

    30. JFJefferson Fisher22:57

        I love, I love this kind of stuff. So because the, all of those things that you talked about are so critical, not only to, not only to business in many ways, they're also incredibly, um, important to relationships.
12. 30:17 – 38:12

    Seasons of life: choosing what matters now to protect what you want later

    1. JFJefferson Fisher30:17

       for $50, which is pretty awesome. Monarch.com/jefferson for $50 off, half off. And now, let's keep going. You, I, I heard you speak at church, uh, and you did a awesome job, um, so well that I thought you were the... It was our first time visiting there, and I thought you were the pastor, as I said a minute ago.

    2. HCDr. Henry Cloud30:36

       I'm, I'm, you know- Pastors get paid to be good. I'm good for nothing.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher30:41

       [laughs]

    4. HCDr. Henry Cloud30:42

       I, I, I can't be that holy-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher30:43

       [laughs]

    6. HCDr. Henry Cloud30:43

       ... all the time.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher30:44

       All the time.

    8. HCDr. Henry Cloud30:45

       [laughs]

    9. JFJefferson Fisher30:46

       Well, you s- you made a, you made a point that has stuck with me, and I, I mentioned this to you when I saw you, uh, over the weekend, was this element of seasons.

    10. HCDr. Henry Cloud30:54

        Mm.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher30:55

        Now, as a, as a dad, as a, a, a, a parent of an eight-year-old and a six-year-old, I look at other couples sometimes-

    12. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:03

        And you're like looking, it's almost halftime.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher31:07

        Uh, yeah, don't say that to me, please

    14. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:08

        Clock's running-

    15. JFJefferson Fisher31:09

        Yeah, don't say that

    16. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:09

        ... and you gotta figure out how long do we still have to win, how are we doing-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher31:14

        Yeah

    18. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:14

        ... going to the halftime huddle. This is a-

    19. JFJefferson Fisher31:15

        I know

    20. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:15

        ... crucial season for you.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher31:16

        This is a super crucial season. I agree. I agree. Uh, we're making, we're making the right plays right now.

    22. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:22

        That's great.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher31:22

        We're making the right plays. And you, you said sometimes you have to know what season of life that you're in.

    24. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:31

        That's right.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher31:32

        And how that spoke to me was I see these other dads who play golf all the time, or I see these dads who go hunting and fishing all the time, and a golf tournament or a fishing tournament, or they're going to this show or that show, and I think sometimes, I truly, I think, "That would be nice. I'd like to go do that."

    26. HCDr. Henry Cloud31:56

        Of course.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher31:57

        And then I... Something happens when I look at my kids and I go, "I can't. I can't do that." And I know of moms who they're at brunch and they see some girls having mimosas, and instead they're with their kids opening up yogurt pouches, you know, with all that. And I found, found your words such a peace to me of knowing that's not my season. Like, I can... Maybe it'll be there again, but right now that's, that's not my season. And I would love if you would just give a little bit of insight on that, that concept for the listeners.

    28. HCDr. Henry Cloud32:34

        I think you put it well. I, I don't want that. I don't want to be disconnected from my kids.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher32:41

        Right.

    30. HCDr. Henry Cloud32:43

        And back to it's, it's not true, but there's truth to the phrase... And it's not true, so don't-
13. 38:12 – 50:45

    Your Desired Future: the 5-step performance system (vision to adaptation)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher38:12

       I wanna make sure that I, I talk about your new book, Your Desired Future: Five Essential Steps That Take You Where You Want To Go. I know this is, uh, you said like your 50th something book.

    2. HCDr. Henry Cloud38:25

       [laughs]

    3. JFJefferson Fisher38:25

       Uh, just, uh, I mean, I feel like you just spit out wisdom and I, like you just drop it out of your pocket, uh, uh, constantly. So I, I'm-

    4. HCDr. Henry Cloud38:33

       Thanks

    5. JFJefferson Fisher38:33

       ... all for it. We're gonna make sure that we put the links down in, in the show notes. But I know from this book you bring out these five essential steps that talk about having like a very defined future of where you, where you wanna do.

    6. HCDr. Henry Cloud38:44

       Yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher38:44

       And not just defined, but you said compelling. I remember you used the word compelling of like what that means.

    8. HCDr. Henry Cloud38:50

       Is it enough to get you out of bed?

    9. JFJefferson Fisher38:51

       That's a great one. Is it enough to get you up and excited out of bed?

    10. HCDr. Henry Cloud38:56

        I mean, this ain't rocket science either. I mean-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher38:58

        Yeah

    12. HCDr. Henry Cloud38:59

        ... I'm kinda hungry, but I'm watching the Masters on TV. Am I hungry enough to get, to go actually make a sandwich? [laughs] No, I'm gonna wait till the next-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher39:07

        [laughs]

    14. HCDr. Henry Cloud39:08

        But sometimes you gotta eat, you know?

    15. JFJefferson Fisher39:10

        Yeah, sometimes you gotta eat.

    16. HCDr. Henry Cloud39:11

        What do you want?

    17. JFJefferson Fisher39:12

        That's right.

    18. HCDr. Henry Cloud39:13

        But here's the thing, motivation won't get you there.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher39:16

        Right.

    20. HCDr. Henry Cloud39:16

        And that's what a lot... You'll hear a lot of people say, "Well, if he wanted it bad enough, he would do it." That's not true. Motivation can be research inversely correlated to achieving a goal.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher39:26

        Mm.

    22. HCDr. Henry Cloud39:26

        Because sometimes we want it so bad, but we're, we're not getting it. It's not working. All right. Not making it.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher39:36

        Mm-hmm.

    24. HCDr. Henry Cloud39:36

        Co- And then you get so depressed over that, it, it takes away everything. So we need motivation, but if we don't have the path by which things get accomplished in place, it's not, it's not gonna happen.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher39:54

        This episode is sponsored by, you know it, Cozy Earth. In fact, I'm wearing Cozy Earth right now. This navy, wonderful, snuggly, cozy sweatshirt that I have m- multiple colors in because they're, they feel that good. If there's one thing I love about Cozy Earth is that everything I put on with them just feels awesome, and I can dress it up, I can dress it down. It usually has, like if I'm wearing... Depends what pants I have on, admittedly, and if I'm just wearing [laughs] ... Well, if I'm wearing sneakers or what I'm doing. But the top is always solid. So if you're like me and you like, if you wanna look good even in casual going to run to the grocery store, or you're wanting to go pick up your kids from school, or you're wanting to be like me and be in a podcast episode and you know other people are gonna be filming you, you need to look at Cozy Earth 'cause their stuff's fantastic. Cozyearth.com/jefferson. Get up to 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson. And now let's keep going. I wanna make sure that I, I give, uh, the listeners th- these steps, these five steps on your desired future because I wanna, I wanna see if we can apply it to some stuff I got going on.

    26. HCDr. Henry Cloud41:04

        Oh, cool.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher41:05

        So one is your vision, two engaging talent, three strategy, um, four the plan, five accountability. I know you have-

    28. HCDr. Henry Cloud41:14

        Well, actually strategy and plan is three-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher41:16

        Part of. I'm with you

    30. HCDr. Henry Cloud41:16

        ... and then there's measurement accountability or the fourth and, and fix and adapt.
14. 50:45 – 55:36

    When you don’t know what you want: find the underlying theme of your calling

    1. JFJefferson Fisher50:45

       Mm. When you, um, talk to somebody... This is, this is a selfish question. Sometimes I don't know what I want.

    2. HCDr. Henry Cloud50:54

       Of course.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher50:55

       Like I really, I, I do, I s- sometimes I struggle with that because here, I'll, I'll make it personal, I never saw my life anything like this right here. Had no, no, I had no clue. There was no-

    4. HCDr. Henry Cloud51:08

       We're the judge and jury.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher51:08

       Exact- yeah. There was no... This wasn't in the vision.

    6. HCDr. Henry Cloud51:11

       Right.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher51:11

       You know? This wasn't in the vision. I had a very strategic vision of what I thought, uh, my legal career was going to be to a T. And now I am in what feels like a dream world. And so I have a very difficult time when I talk to other friends who seem like they know what they're doing, and they have big f- social followings and, and they go, "Well, what do you... What, just depends what you want. What do you want?" And I go, " [laughs] I don't, I didn't know I'd be even in the room." And so-

    8. HCDr. Henry Cloud51:44

       Well, do you like what you're doing?

    9. JFJefferson Fisher51:45

       I love what I do.

    10. HCDr. Henry Cloud51:46

        Good.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher51:46

        I love... I never thought this was a thing.

    12. HCDr. Henry Cloud51:47

        You want what you're doing.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher51:49

        Yeah. I don't wanna stop this. I mean, I, I do love that. I just, when they go, "Well, where do you wanna go with it?" Or I think I also talk to people I know in conversations that when I'll say, "What do you want them to know?" I guess maybe-

    14. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:06

        Can I interrupt?

    15. JFJefferson Fisher52:06

        ... I'm taking my own advice here.

    16. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:07

        Can I interrupt for one second?

    17. JFJefferson Fisher52:08

        Yeah.

    18. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:09

        There is an underlying theme here.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher52:11

        Mm.

    20. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:11

        And this speaks to your heart.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher52:12

        Mm-hmm.

    22. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:13

        Okay? And it speaks to that question. Many times in life we find ourselves in different contexts doing different things, but if you look underneath it there's a theme to it that taps into your, what you love to do-

    23. JFJefferson Fisher52:29

        Mm

    24. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:29

        ... what you're good at, and there's a need for it in the world. You gotta have those three things.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher52:33

        Mm.

    26. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:34

        I could love to do it, but if I suck at it I'm not gonna play for the Lakers, right?

    27. JFJefferson Fisher52:39

        [laughs] Yeah.

    28. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:40

        Or-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher52:40

        Yeah, yeah

    30. HCDr. Henry Cloud52:41

        ... I could love something that's a great idea, but the world-

Episode duration: 55:36