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The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Dave Ramsey: "How To Actually Change Their Behavior"

The conversations you've been avoiding rarely get easier—they just get more expensive. In this episode, I sit down with Dave Ramsey to talk about what it really takes to tell the truth with kindness, navigate disagreement without making it personal, and have the conversations most people spend years avoiding. If you want to communicate with more confidence, lead with more clarity, and stop letting fear keep you silent, this episode will give you the tools to do it. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter Thank you to our Sponsors: Masa Chips. Get 25% off at https://www.masachips.com/pages/jefferson AG1: Visit https://drinkag1.com/jefferson to get a free Morning Person Hat and free AG1 Flavor Sampler in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/

Jefferson FisherhostDave Ramseyguest
Jul 31, 20261h 22mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:16

    Always right vs. anchored values: humility and “universal truth”

    1. JF

      How do you deal with somebody who thinks they're always right?

    2. DR

      Um, like me? [laughs]

    3. JF

      [laughs] Yeah.

    4. DR

      Well, I mean ob- obviously no one's always right.

    5. JF

      Right.

    6. DR

      But the, um, but to the extent you're aligned, in my world, to the extent I'm aligned with scripture or I'm aligned with a universal truth of some kind, then, uh, then that thing is always right.

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. DR

      And so in that case, in that thing, I'm always right. Um, but in terms of every situation or every single nuance in your life, no one obviously is. And so anyone that thinks that has psychological problems, and so, uh, there's a lack of humility or a lack of, um, grasping. But I am, uh, n- not confused about why I've placed my values where I've placed them, and that they are the truth. That's different than Dave is always right.

    9. JF

      Yeah. Uh, uh, and that's, that's what I'm hearing of this, what I called unshakable a minute ago, is you've said, "Okay, I'm putting this value in a box, that it is in a glass box that is not to ever be removed. This is what I know to be true 'cause this is in alignment with my value."

    10. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JF

      And-

    12. DR

      And I've got social proof, proof text in the marketplace-

    13. JF

      Well, for sure

    14. DR

      ... to back it up.

  2. 1:16 – 3:22

    Choosing which hills to die on: non-negotiables vs. trivial disputes

    1. JF

      For sure. But it... Is, is there a cost to being the person that wants to die on every hill?

    2. DR

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I, I think that's the, um, immaturity usually is what that is, that um, a lack of experience 'cause you're gonna end up getting the snot beat out of you at some point-

    3. JF

      [laughs]

    4. DR

      ... if you do that. I mean, it's gonna be-

    5. JF

      Life will do it for you.

    6. DR

      Yeah, it's, life's gonna teach you that that's not worth doing. And, um, so, uh-

    7. JF

      How do you do that? How do you not be the person... Well, let me ask, how do you know whether that hill is worth dying on, it's worth planting your flag in?

    8. DR

      I think you never know 100%. I don't anyway. Some people do maybe, but I don't. Um, uh, what I'm assessing is, is that, you know, how far do you wanna take something? How far do you, how far against the wall do you wanna push this thing? Um, is for me, it, it, it's based on what's the cost of, uh, of surrendering that. If you're surrendering that, are you surrendering what you believe to be true? And so you're being insincere by quitting.

    9. JF

      [laughs]

    10. DR

      You know? But if you're going, "You know, I don't know if we're right or not, but huh, feels right," you know, that's a different thing than, um, you know, if, if you're gonna attack my family, uh, then that's a hill we'll die on.

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. DR

      You know? That, that's a, that's a non-negotiable. You're gonna attack my faith, I'm not gonna back off on that.

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DR

      That's not, that's not a, that's a non-negotiable. Uh, my, my freedoms as an American, you're gonna steal from me-

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm

    16. DR

      ... that's a non-negotiable. Um, but um, arguing over which color of carpet to put in the bedroom-

    17. JF

      Yeah

    18. DR

      ... or what type of wood floor to put down-

    19. JF

      [laughs]

    20. DR

      ... this is an argument we might have had at the Ramsey house.

    21. JF

      [laughs]

    22. DR

      That's not a hill worth dying on.

    23. JF

      Right.

    24. DR

      You know what I'm saying?

  3. 3:22 – 4:57

    A practical filter for home and work: does this change who we are?

    1. JF

      Yeah, so if you put it like at, at home or, uh, even at work and, and in your business, how do you, how do you determine whether something is worth sticking up for or saying, "Actually, you know what? I'm just gonna..."

    2. DR

      Well, does it change... I- if we walk away from it, does it fundamentally change who we say we are?

    3. JF

      Mm.

    4. DR

      If it does, then it was, we should've had that fight. We should've stayed in the fight. But if it's like, okay, there's three or four possible ways to execute this business model, and we're just arguing about which play to call to put the ball in the end zone, then that's a good argu- that's a healthy business argument among peers, and we have those all the time. Because, and we respect each other, respect each other's intellect, business acumen, uh, integrity, intent-

    5. JF

      Mm

    6. DR

      ... those kinds of things in our leadership team, and then we just sit there and have this wonderful argument to get to, okay, are we gonna pass or are we gonna hand the ball off? Or h- which way are we gonna do this-

    7. JF

      Yeah

    8. DR

      ... this entree leadership thing?

    9. JF

      Thing.

    10. DR

      Which way are we gonna do this, this, uh, you know, this, uh, every dollar thing, all the products and things-

    11. JF

      Right

    12. DR

      ... that we're doing in the marketplace. There's, there's all kinds of things there. But i- if, if something's coming against us that fundamentally-

    13. JF

      Mm

    14. DR

      ... is asking us to surrender a value, uh, in order to go that direction, that one, you, you know, that's when your, that's what your value system is for. It's what your core values are for. It's what your mission statement's for.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. DR

      Is you have to, it, it's describing not only who you are, but more importantly, it's describing who you aren't.

  4. 4:57 – 8:32

    How to have a “wonderful argument”: attack problems, not people

    1. JF

      Ooh, yeah, I hear you. I, I want to go, 'cause I like talking in the big theories. I also love crunching on, like, the very practical, here's... If I could, if I could type it up, here's what we would do. You use this phrase, and I love it. How would, how do you have a wonderful argument?

    2. DR

      Well, we're arguing about the problem. It's not personal. I don't know, if I have to hurl personal insults at you-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm

    4. DR

      ... then that, you know, we've, we've, we've lost the... Including, and, and you teach this. I've watched you beautifully.

    5. JF

      Thank you.

    6. DR

      Matter of fact, I've learned a lot from-

    7. JF

      [laughs] Thank you

    8. DR

      ... watching, just watching your reels and stuff, and before we were friends even.

    9. JF

      Right.

    10. DR

      Um, and so but that's the thing. It, it's, okay, h- how can we navigate this situation in such a way th- that, uh, the people can retain their dignity that are in the argument?

    11. JF

      Hmm.

    12. DR

      But healthy conflict is, organizational conflict, uh, an organization that does not have healthy conflict, uh, is not being well run. It's a, uh, it's a bureaucrat. It's everybody- it's little robots following rules, and it's a cult, and that's... It- You're not getting your best ideas out.

    13. JF

      It's not healthy.

    14. DR

      Yeah. It's he- healthy, by definition, involves conflict. It just... Good conflict, and good conflict is not a personal insult, not questioning someone's personal value as a human being. Like, "You're so stupid you can't breathe. Why'd you say that?" That's not-

    15. JF

      Oh, yeah

    16. DR

      ... that's not the kind of argument we have, right? But this is like, "I can say that's the dumbest idea I think I've seen this week."

    17. JF

      [laughs]

    18. DR

      I can do that, and I have said that, and people have said that about my ideas, too. And we laugh and talk about it. A- and, you know, but we trust everyone. You- you've gotta build this extreme trust in the room, and you do that with time and with the quality of humans you have in the room in a leadership team. And we do everything by, uh, consensus. We do everything by, uh, you know, a collaboration I think we call it today more than anything else. And, and so, you know, uh, you know, John Delony, our mutual friend's-

    19. JF

      Yeah

    20. DR

      ... on our team. And so it's not unusual for me and Delony and a couple of other of the big personalities and the leadership team and some of the content people be in a room and we're talking about, you know, a, a content piece or something we're... a talk we're building or a- looking at a, a, a book someone's working on.

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DR

      And we just, we just wear it out together, and no one walks away going, "You know, my feelings are really hurt." Be- because it's like everybody understands w- we love you so much, we want that thing to work, and we're all gonna give w- everything we got.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. DR

      And the, the... If you just keep putting the sandpaper to it, it'll polish.

    25. JF

      What I'm hearing is, so first, if you wanna have an argument that improves, whether it's your work or your life, an argument that improves, what you've called a wonderful argument, the first thing we wanna do is attack the problem, not the person.

    26. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JF

      The second one I'm hearing is you have to create an environment of trust.

    28. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JF

      And that also means an environment of safety.

    30. DR

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 8:32 – 11:12

    Requiring dissent in the room: permission, courage, and personality styles

    1. DR

      And when someone's as over-the-top, in your face a personality as I am, um-

    2. JF

      What?

    3. DR

      ... I not only have to invite permission for them to lock horns, it's a requirement to be in the room that you have to be willing to lock horns.

    4. JF

      Tell me more about that.

    5. DR

      Well, because you have to push past that fear thing because, I mean, I love to argue and-

    6. JF

      [laughs]

    7. DR

      ... and it's a great way to get to a, a solution.

    8. JF

      You're just sharpening.

    9. DR

      But, but only if everybody in the room is safe, and only if everybody steps in. Because if somebody sits over there and holds their stuff and they don't put it in the middle of the table while everybody else is in, beating stuff in the middle of the table, the best idea still hadn't made it out yet. And if they're holding it because, you know, like, "Well, Dave invited me to lock horns, but did he really mean it?" And-

    10. JF

      Yeah

    11. DR

      ... you know, like, no, I more than meant it. I require... I mean, y- if you can't come to the table and, you know, put everything you got in there, then you don't need to be in that room.

    12. JF

      Do you respect people more when they argue with you?

    13. DR

      Oh, absolutely. It's, it's like I just said, it's a requirement. I mean, it's... And, and different personality styles are gonna come at that different, and that's fine. You know, so, I mean, you, you know my daughter Rachel really well.

    14. JF

      Yeah.

    15. DR

      I mean, she more like in a, uh... You know, the family is, owns Ramsey, and so the family's sitting in the operating board and, you know, there's 10 of our s- top senior executives, including Rachel and Daniel-

    16. JF

      Mm-hmm

    17. DR

      ... and some of the family members. But she's the one... She's more like me than the other three c- than the other two kids. And so, you know, she and I have some fabulous arguments. But we do not... I, I do not use my dad voice on her, and she doesn't roll her eyes like a petulant teenager. She's a grown woman that has very good business acumen and is unbelievably articulate, so she's fabulous to argue with.

    18. JF

      Yeah. And how does that feel?

    19. DR

      Oh, I love it. It, uh, it means I'm a great dad-

    20. JF

      [laughs]

    21. DR

      ... that I've built one of those. I mean, as far as I'm concerned-

    22. JF

      [laughs]

    23. DR

      ... that's just incredible. I mean, she's, uh, confident, competent, poised. The other kids are, too. They're just different styles, and so they're... You know, my son Daniel's a little bit more like he's gonna be more like my wife. He's gonna try to make it your idea.

    24. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    25. DR

      Make you think it was your idea instead of his idea. And Rachel's like, "No, I'm right," you know? And so, but the different personality styles around the room are the same thing.

    26. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    27. DR

      It's not just the kids, but... Not just gen two Ramsey. But the, um... And these are 40-year-old people, so they're not children.

    28. JF

      Yeah.

    29. DR

      But the, uh, um, but the people in the room are the same thing. I mean, there's some of them that are real loud like me or gregarious or whatever, and then there's some that are very detailed, and they wanna sit and think. They need more time to process before they do it. And that's not emotional fear. It's just they're processors instead of reactors and that kind of thing.

  6. 11:12 – 12:43

    Sponsor break: Masa Chips

    1. JF

      Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Masa Chips. I don't know about you, but I have certainly eaten my weight in tortilla chips for salsa, and I look down and see just how much tortilla chips I've eaten, and then I see all the stuff that's in them, all the seed oils, preservatives, all that junk that you don't need. Masa Chips, this is how good this is, y'all. I'm, I'm, I'm giving an ad for some chips because they're that good. As soon as they go through the door, my kids devour them. Best thing I like about Masa Chips is that there's no seed oils. It's all 100% organic corn, and it's beef tallow. It's beef tallow. So you know everything in them, everything that's in them is good for you. And you can absolutely crush a bag of these Masa Chips, and you still feel awesome. My favorite flavor is probably lime, and I would probably like churro. But my kids eat them before I can even really have more than one chip. So they're also awesome. They come in a ton of different flavors. They're wonderful. They are the chip that I go to, and I... Yeah, they're-- I fully support Masa Chips. If you are like me and you enjoy good chips for your salsa, that get together and fajita party, go to masachips.com/jefferson. Use code Jefferson for up to 25% off. Masachips.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for up to 25% off. You will not regret

  7. 12:43 – 20:24

    Disagreeing well: spirited debate, expertise, and diverse perspectives

    1. JF

      it. And now let's get back to the episode. We've talked about if you wanna have an argument that improves your life. We've talked about attacking the problem, not the person. We, um, meaning the content, not, not their character. And we've talked about that element of trust and how conflict is a requirement. I mean, you respect people more when they're able to actually voice those kind of things. What, what else creates a, a wonderful argument, an argument that improves? I think there's a lot to be said for, um, the ability to disagree the right way.

    2. DR

      Yeah. I, um, I get the most value out of these... It sounds like some kind of knockdown hillbilly drag out or something. That's not what I'm talking about. But I get the most value out of one of these healthy discussions, these lively discussions, we can call it. Um-

    3. JF

      Are they loud?

    4. DR

      Um, sometimes.

    5. JF

      Are they spirited?

    6. DR

      Sometimes. Um, it's good when someone believes something deeply enough that they become spirited about it, which makes you s- That always gives everybody else in the room pause and goes, "That can move the room. That can tilt the room," when someone actually... You, that just came out of your belly, not your head.

    7. JF

      Oh, I like that.

    8. DR

      That was good.

    9. JF

      I like that.

    10. DR

      You know, I like that.

    11. JF

      It came out of your belly.

    12. DR

      Yeah.

    13. JF

      I like that.

    14. DR

      And so that came out of who you are.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. DR

      The... A- and again, the longer we've walked together, whoever is in the room, has walked together, the higher level this trust is and the higher level the respect is. And one of the things that I've loved about that situation is I've got folks in the room that have these, uh, particular, uh, in, in this case we're talking about business, but business talents. Um, like, like for instance, our CTO, I mean, technical guy, right? And so he sees things through project management eyes. He sees things through, um, working with developers for 30 years and software engineers-

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm

    18. DR

      ... you know, and that's a different mindset. And so anytime we get into something that that type of, uh, thinking really adds value, this guy's really talented-

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm

    20. DR

      ... in that. And so it's like I love having someone that is just stone cold, lights out, way better than me at something.

    21. JF

      Somebody wicked smart. Yeah. [laughs]

    22. DR

      And, uh, yeah, wick- wicked smart and they, a- and their discipline in particular.

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. DR

      Their thing, and they drop that in there and it's... They're almost intimidating because they're so stinking good about that thing. And then we land on w- you know, what the, the thing we're working on, that adds value to-

    25. JF

      Right

    26. DR

      ... oh, that's a sweet spot.

    27. JF

      Yeah. Makes me think of the value of having a voice. Like, you need resistance.

    28. DR

      Mm.

    29. JF

      Not only in your life, but also in the decisions that you make of... I, I know what I'm good at-

    30. DR

      Mm

  8. 20:24 – 23:17

    Reading callers without seeing them: “get behind the words”

    1. JF

      When you go into these calls, and you've been running your radio show for forever, [laughs] I feel like it, uh, as long, almost as long as, a little bit older more than I've been alive, is what's your mindset when you're first listening to this person? Because you don't see them face to face. You hear them, and that to me is different because you get to kind of paint in your mind what they look like, who they are. You get those very quick snapshots. What, what's the first thing that you... Where does your mind first go to when you hear their voice?

    2. DR

      You know, you know, the fact that it is audio only, it's almost as if you've, um, like if you lost your sight.

    3. JF

      Right.

    4. DR

      You know, you have to... You, you, you don't have the disadvantage of judging their shoes, their rings, their makeup, their clothing.

    5. JF

      Or their facial expressions.

    6. DR

      Or-

    7. JF

      Yeah

    8. DR

      ... you know, you're not misled by or properly can... The disadvantage is you can't... Body language is obviously more powerful than verbal. Um, we all know that. But the, um, but you don't have the disadvantage of that, s-so you have... The advantage is you have to hone in on the speech pattern and the, um... I didn't know I was doing it for a long time. I've thought about it a lot, though, since I've been doing it a long time. But for a while, I was just listening and answering the question, listening, answering the question. And, uh, I went to a Bible study, and the guy gave me a, a Hebrew word, uh, which I've now forgotten, um, Shema or something like that, but it means to get behind the words.

    9. JF

      Hmm.

    10. DR

      What's really going on behind the words? 'Cause the, the, they're giving you, they're presenting almost like their-

    11. JF

      The discernment

    12. DR

      ... their, their social media version of themselves with these words.

    13. JF

      Okay.

    14. DR

      Right? Which is not a true picture of what's really going on.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. DR

      'Cause they're, they're trying to give you the best side of their argument-

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm

    18. DR

      ... so to speak, or their question. Present themselves in the best light. But what's really going on in these words? And then when I ask a follow-up question is usually where we start the, the dance, and it's like, okay, um, you know, did they just tell me the truth? Or the way they phrased it, they're passive-aggressive, and they're, you know, they're really not... You know, um, you've told me four times how your sister stole money from you. Okay, I got that.

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DR

      But we seem to be stuck there, and we can't even get back to the thing you actually ask about because you're camping over there. And so there's, that's telling me something else is going on here. And so we're just trying to get behind the call, get behind the words, get behind the words, get behind the words.

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

  9. 23:17 – 25:37

    From money question to marriage counseling: diagnosing patterns and control

    1. DR

      Trying to find out what's really happening here. And so, you know, you know, a simple example, very simple, is a guy will get on the air, and this happens almost every week, and he starts, um, in great detail giving me every stinking, I mean, precision detail of his financial situation.

    2. JF

      Surgical, yeah. [laughs]

    3. DR

      So this guy is obviously a detail guy, right?

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DR

      He's obviously an engineer, accountant. You know, "What do you do for a living?" "I'm an engineer."

    6. JF

      Right.

    7. DR

      No kidding.

    8. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    9. DR

      I'm, I'm shocked, you know. And so he's obviously that guy, and, um, and then he starts telling me how good he is at saving money and, and how his, he can't get his wife to go along with his plan. You know, to get, he can't get his wife on the Ramsey plan 'cause he's trying to get me to-

    10. JF

      Mm

    11. DR

      ... take up for him and tell him how to fix his wife. And I'm like- Your wife's not the problem. You're just so completely anal and such a tightwad that she doesn't have a voice in this discussion. And until you give her a voice in this discussion... And so it ends up being marriage counseling, right?

    12. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    13. DR

      A little light version of marriage counseling.

    14. JF

      Funny how everything kind of comes back to that.

    15. DR

      Yeah. Until you... But all I'm doing is listening to his speech patterns and his information systems that he's using to throw at me, and I'm, you know, you pretty quickly go, "This is a good guy, but he sees the world through a very detailed lens, and, a- and it's very hard for him to sit down and, and, you know, come to agreement with someone who sees things differently."

    16. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DR

      It's his way or the highway. And he's, you know, if you don't save every dime and if you spent more than 14 cents on something, you, you... he's gonna lose his mind.

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. DR

      And so his wife actually just wanted to buy food, and that, you know, so [laughs]

    20. JF

      Right.

    21. DR

      I was like, "Come on, dude."

    22. JF

      Yeah.

    23. DR

      And that, that... we get that call all the time. But all we're doing there is, again, we're listening to the nuance of the language, the pausing, the style, the, the, um, what kind of a personality is he putting forth. And then we go, "Hey, dude, you're..." You know, and sometimes I just say back to him, "When you said that out loud, did it sound as crazy to you as it did to all of us that heard you say it?"

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. DR

      [laughs] You know, and it's like, "No, I never thought about it, but that's just, that is kind of crazy." You know, it's like-

    26. JF

      Yeah

    27. DR

      ... "Okay, there you go."

    28. JF

      [laughs]

  10. 25:37 – 32:57

    Learning to say the hard thing: truth + grace, calibrated bluntness

    1. JF

      You, um, you're somebody who is certainly known to be somebody who isn't afraid to tell people how you see it. Uh, I think especially on some of the calls, I feel like, uh, even at the time, I think I was on one time, somebody who, uh, and I was, uh, with you there at the desk and somebody called and, um, you said something along the lines of, he's like, uh, they had said something kind of like, "I don't know. What should I do?" And you're like, "Yeah, that's a terrible idea." [laughs] And, and you were just like, I mean, you put, you, you weren't afraid to, to punch that, and they didn't... They took it, and they were, just like you said a minute ago, of being able to use some of these words that they appreciate the directness. And I'm saying this because I think it's a strength. And there are a lot of people out there who really struggle to say the hard thing. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about AG1. I don't know about you, but summers can be just kind of weird, 'cause some nights all, everybody is in bed early. Others, we say, "Pfft, forget it," and we're staying up late. We're traveling a lot, um, or you got crazy jet lag like me. Nutrition is where things start to fall apart. I have been taking AG1 now for several months, brought it with me, uh, when we were over in Australia. Why? Because it fills in all the nutritional gaps for me. It helps with my stomach, your gut biome. It helps my brain, gives me energy. It says, "Hey, I'm doing good things 'cause I'm putting good things in me," and that feels really good. And one thing I really appreciate about AG1 is that all their stuff is clinically researched. Check this out. AG1 Next Gen is backed by multiple gold standard clinical trials and is clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within three months, enrich the gut biome and key nutrients in AG1 were shown to be quickly and easily absorbed into the body. For me, it's really just one less thing to worry about. The taste, I'm not gonna say it tastes like candy. But I will say it tastes, it tastes good enough. If I, if I am taking it, it tastes good. Visit drinkag1.com/jefferson to get a free Morning Person Hat. Hey, I need one of these hats. And free AG1 Flavor Sampler in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription. That's an $82 value. So that's drinkag1.com/jefferson. And now, let's keep going. How does someone become a person who isn't afraid to say the hard thing?

    2. DR

      Well, I think if you pulled up tapes from the early days on the show, um, I would be... You'd find me dancing around a lot more than coming straight at it. Um, and so-

    3. JF

      Something you've learned.

    4. DR

      Yeah, it- it's, I've, I've, I already knew in my head what I wanted to say, but I was a little bit more sweet tea Southern and just passive-aggressive and dance around-

    5. JF

      Put some syrup on it

    6. DR

      ... to try to pull it out.

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. DR

      And sometimes that's not a bad idea. Still, I need to maybe not be quite so forceful today.

    9. JF

      Bless their heart.

    10. DR

      But I, yeah.

    11. JF

      [laughs]

    12. DR

      It's just kind of, "Bless your heart."

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. DR

      And that can mean a lot of stuff in the South, folks. Um, but the, um, h- um, grace without truth is enabling.

    15. JF

      Hmm.

    16. DR

      Truth without grace is, uh, legalism. And so i- I'm usually, not always, and I make, we make mistakes on the air.

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. DR

      We do live three hours a day, so I mean, we make mistakes. Um, and I still make mistakes. But the, uh, I misjudge, in other words, the situation. But if I can, through the information they're giving me, figure out that they've been with us a while and then they called, well, they've heard me have these other interactions hundreds of times maybe.

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DR

      And then they walked into that exact situation. So that tells everyone there, whether you realize it or not, that they're, that they trust me to, to, that if I'm gonna tell them something that's hard, that I'm not doing it for entertainment value, I'm doing it to help them.

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DR

      Trying to help the person that called. And anybody that's listening has got the same situation. I want to tell them the truth. And, um, uh, so i- i- if they call up and go, "You know, my girlfriend told me to call, and she listens to you all the time, and I, I don't even... I'm sorry, but I don't even know who you guys are." I'm gonna soft that one

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm

    24. DR

      I'm gonna put a lot of padding on that. I'm not gonna punch with a brick

    25. JF

      [laughs]

    26. DR

      You know?

    27. JF

      Yeah

    28. DR

      Uh, but if they call up and they go, "You know, Dave, I've been listening to you for seven years, and-"

    29. JF

      Mm

    30. DR

      "... you know, my family's been through Financial Peace University, and I'm thinking about leasing a car." And I'm like, "What are you-- That's so in, that's so against everything you just said. Those two things don't even go in the same sentence."

  11. 32:57 – 34:31

    On-air escalation rules: persuade twice, then stop arguing

    1. DR

      ... at that point. A- and so, um, it's like my duty then to be helpful, which means I have to tell the truth, and I have to do it in such a way. The third piece that goes with it is we will... And, uh, all the Ramsey personalities have been taught this, and you'll, if you listen carefully, you'll hear them do it, because I taught them to. I learned it, is I will come at someone about three times.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DR

      And the third time they argue with me, each time I turn up the heat and the bluntness and the, uh, even the volume sometimes of the voice.

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DR

      First time is, "Okay, I'm gonna try to persuade you and talk you through this, give you all the reasons and so forth." The second time, I'm gonna go, "Look, I, this is what we said-"

    6. JF

      Mm-hmm

    7. DR

      "... and I'm gonna go lean in a little bit harder." The third time, I'm gonna pound it and drop the call-

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm

    9. DR

      ... because I'm not arguing with you.

    10. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DR

      I- if I wanted to argue with you, I'd do a different show.

    12. JF

      [laughs] Right.

    13. DR

      That's not the show I'm doing. You called and asked us what, how to help, be helpful. We told you how to be helpful, and the, that's what we think. If you wanna do something else, that's okay. It's your life. You can do something else. But this is what we said, and we're not really gonna change that by having this long discussion with you, unless you give us a new piece of information or something in the call.

    14. JF

      Right.

    15. DR

      But if you come in and we have the information set, we have the data set to make the, make a judgment call on it, then after that, it's just you're asking me to, uh, put a, my Dave Ramsey certification on your stupidity, and I'm not doing that.

  12. 34:31 – 38:57

    Why people want to be told what they already know: trust gaps and “grandpa wisdom”

    1. JF

      Yeah. [laughs] You have good phrases. You think there's more to that when somebody is calling knowing f- full well what you're going to say? They just, they need to be told it by somebody, even though they, they're fully aware. Is, is there something to that, where somebody has to be told what they already know to be true?

    2. DR

      There's so few places in our life in today's society that we can actually, uh, have faith in the person's character that we're interacting with.

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DR

      I- in the quote old days, you know, you could look and say, "That person is a person of character. That person, I can..." You know, and you could cert-- you could talk to your pastor. You could talk to whatever. You could talk to who-- you know, your boss. You could talk to whoever. A- and your, your dad and mom were somewhat functional, you know, those kinds of things. Uh, in today's world, um, more people grew up without a dad in the household than grew up with a dad. And so they, they've never had anyone, in a lot of cases-

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm

    6. DR

      ... that they could ask.

    7. JF

      Hmm.

    8. DR

      Nobody taught them about buying a car. Nobody taught them about, um, whatever. Um, and so single-parent household, a- and that's not to shame the person that, that did raise them. Single moms are warriors. They're, they're, they're heroes. Um, but, but the, the point is there's just a vacuum, um, in our culture today of, uh, who you can trust. A- and the, the more time you spend on, you know, with millennials and Gen Zs, the more time they spend with screens, the more they realize how untrustworthy most of these sources are.

    9. JF

      Hmm.

    10. DR

      Um, 'cause they're not. [laughs] And they go, "I can't trust that. I can't trust that. These are shallow. These are not-"

    11. JF

      Yeah

    12. DR

      "... you know, these are just influencers. They're not, they're not people of substance or character." And so, uh, who's the person that's got some depth spiritually, got some depth emotionally, psychologically, um, got some experience? Who's the, um- Uh, you know, they, they didn't sit at their grandpa's feet growing up 'cause grandpa didn't live next door

    13. JF

      Right

    14. DR

      And, and so they didn't, they, they never learned how to whittle, and they never-

    15. JF

      Hmm

    16. DR

      ... learned how to talk to grandpa. 'Cause grandpa would tell you stuff.

    17. JF

      Right.

    18. DR

      I mean, he, he'd get on... If you had a grandpa like that, I had one like that. He'd get, he'd get up-

    19. JF

      Still do

    20. DR

      ... in your business, you know?

    21. JF

      [laughs]

    22. DR

      Mine did.

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. DR

      I drove up in a Jaguar one time of mine, and he, he was a, you know, an, a product of the Great Depression. And, um, he didn't say a lot. He's kind of a quiet guy, and he, he said, "What is that?" And I was making all this money in the real estate business right before I went broke and losing everything 'cause of debt. And, uh, he said, "What's that?" I said, "That's a Jaguar, Grandpa." And he goes, "Really?" I said, "That's a good-looking car." He goes, "Well, what'd you pay for that?" And I said, told him, and I was like, I don't even remember at the time, like 30 grand or something back then, and, uh, which would be 130 now-

    25. JF

      Right

    26. DR

      ... or 200. But he said, um, "Well, what's that thing gonna be worth in 10 years?" And I said, "Well, it's gonna go down in value." And I said, "But it's a good investment." He goes, "Honey, my investments go up." [laughs]

    27. JF

      Yeah. [laughs] That's a good-

    28. DR

      You know, they didn't have that guy.

    29. JF

      That's awesome.

    30. DR

      If they didn't have that guy, a lot of times, whether I'm, I'm not grandpa-

  13. 38:57 – 43:22

    Sponsor break: AG1

    1. JF

      for their, in their interest-

    2. DR

      Mm-hmm

    3. JF

      ... I think they're willing to do it, um, and go into that with you. And more it, it'd be a, a collaborative team thing. I do think there is something too, though, people wanna be told. You know, I, it's something I, I wrestle with this idea of, you know, the, the, the things I talk about n- nothing new. I'm not coming up with some new theory, you know?

    4. DR

      Well, we never do.

    5. JF

      R- right. And so the, uh, I'm not coming up with s- uh, my name isn't added to some new mathematical theorem out there.

    6. DR

      Hmm.

    7. JF

      I'm just telling them things maybe in a way they haven't heard, or maybe they just need to hear it, and that does something to, to people.

    8. DR

      Hmm.

    9. JF

      And I feel like you're certainly a living example of that with this radio show, is they know that they need to not have debt. They know that they need to be-

    10. DR

      Hmm

    11. JF

      ... having better habits. They just feel better when you tell them to.

    12. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JF

      Why do you think that is?

    14. DR

      I, I think the, um, what's true with your content and ours is that the heart, even if your heart is, uh, even if you've been abused, and even if you're struggling with, you know, finding your way to some kind of psychological, spiritual normalcy-

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm

    16. DR

      ... even in those damaged situations, but for sure people that are in a more normal bell curve, the heart recognizes truth when it hears it. There's a tuning fork that it's like, oh, that's on, that's, that's on tune.

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DR

      That, that's, that's the right note.

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DR

      I feel it. The heart recognizes that. And, um, a- and so, uh, uh, truth does that. It just, it rings a bell for you. A- and so, uh, when we say something like that, even if they've never heard it before, "Yeah, I think that's true."

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DR

      I... The kind, that light bulb comes on.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. DR

      And that's w- with, with what you're teaching them, they're like, "Yeah, maybe I don't need to come at that verbally this way. Maybe I need to just take a half step back and breathe and-

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm

    26. DR

      ... let's do," you know. And you go, "That's just so wise." A- and you go, "Huh, that's wisdom." And your heart recognizes truth, recognizes wisdom, and it gravitates towards that. A- and then the more times someone like you or our team, uh, uh, does that, the more trustworthy you become to where even if you come at them with something later after you've built a rapport with them, even though you never met them, but you built a rapport with them over the-

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm

    28. DR

      ... over the platform-

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm

    30. DR

      ... um, the, the more you, uh, then when you come at them with something, even if it doesn't ring the bell, enough other things have that they will still listen to it. They'll still go, "Yeah, all the other stuff he told me was right, so I gotta, I gotta really consider this one."

  14. 43:22 – 51:16

    Hard conversations with the right motive: serve them, not self-relief

    1. JF

      And so whether it's scrolling, whether it's listening to a show, we're waiting for that moment that goes, "I hear that." You know? And I think, I wanna speak right now for the person who... There is somebody who needs to have a very difficult conversation that they've been avoiding tomorrow. How do they work up the courage to say the thing that needs to be said?

    2. DR

      Well, the first thing is, is I wouldn't have the conversation if, um, you're doing it so you feel better.

    3. JF

      I like that.

    4. DR

      Because you're gonna be disappointed.

    5. JF

      [laughs] Yeah.

    6. DR

      It's not gonna work. [laughs]

    7. JF

      Right.

    8. DR

      'Cause you're not gonna feel better. [laughs]

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. DR

      Uh, it, this... You know, i- if your mom's being difficult and you think you're gonna explain to your mom to not be difficult anymore, and you think you're gonna leave that conversation and your mom's gonna be d- th- that-

    11. JF

      Yeah

    12. DR

      ... you're gonna be disappointed.

    13. JF

      Right.

    14. DR

      So if you think you're gonna go in and correct someone and them gonna accept it, or, or set a boundary and they are boundary-less people and they're suddenly gonna love that because you had one tough conversation, um, but you're gonna feel better. "I got it off my chest"-

    15. JF

      Mm

    16. DR

      ... is what people say, right? Um, that's not a healthy conversation. You're doing that-

    17. JF

      Yeah

    18. DR

      ... for selfish reasons.

    19. JF

      Yes.

    20. DR

      So if you can enter the conversation on how I can serve that person on the other side, how can I serve them, how can I, how can I leave the conversation and them have been helped?

    21. JF

      I like that a lot.

    22. DR

      Then your job is-

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm

    24. DR

      ... to build a persuasive case. Your job is to form your words in such a way that they're helpful, not just you feel better because you puked on them.

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. DR

      You know? And I've done both in my personal life or in a business setting or whatever, where I'm just gonna throw up on you, but I'll feel better, and then the person was not helped. So why did I do... I mean, nothing changed.

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. DR

      You know? The guy's a crook. He's still a crook. When I finish talking to him, he's still a crook. Why am I ha- why am I telling him he's a crook?

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    30. DR

      It's, it's, it's of no value.

  15. 51:16 – 1:04:28

    Direct but not mean: tone, relationship, and accountability that works

    1. DR

      If, if you get angry in the delivery, that's not kind.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DR

      You say the same thing the wrong way.

    4. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    5. DR

      Right? Or if your, um, volume is wrong, or sometimes even your pacing-

    6. JF

      Your timing

    7. DR

      ... is wrong, all of those things indicate it's about you.

    8. JF

      Do you find that you are more effective when you are the Dave that's loud and animated, and almost to the point of, let's just say, anger? Or do you find that you're effective when you can slow it down and have a little bit more of the, not softness, 'cause I think you can be kind and still be incredibly firm. Um-

    9. DR

      But it's a soft voice.

    10. JF

      Yes

    11. DR

      Maybe. Um, well, the data tells us on our show, based on viewership-

    12. JF

      Mm-hmm

    13. DR

      ... of certain clips-

    14. JF

      Yeah

    15. DR

      ... or certain, uh, particular episodes or whatever of Dave, I'll just use myself only, um, is that if I'm loud and animated and passionate at an individual, I get real negative feedback. They want me to l- tell them the truth, the viewer does.

    16. JF

      Yeah.

    17. DR

      And, um, but it feels mean to them if I'm doing all that. And so when I'm individual to individual, if I'm sitting on the couch with, having a private conversation with someone, that's gonna sound completely-

    18. JF

      Yeah

    19. DR

      ... different than a rant about a concept.

    20. JF

      Right.

    21. DR

      That's just stupid.

    22. JF

      [laughs] That angry Dave comes out.

    23. DR

      Yeah, and I can do all... I can go crazy about that, and those things go through the roof. You know?

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. DR

      You've lost your mind, you know.

    26. JF

      [laughs]

    27. DR

      All that stuff, right?

    28. JF

      Yeah.

    29. DR

      And those things go, but, but I, what I'm doing there is passionately-

    30. JF

      That's passion coming out

  16. 1:04:28 – 1:16:29

    Cold-shower conversations: repetition builds courage and competence

    1. JF

      Yeah, that's a great way of putting it, is I think that puts it, makes a condition on the timing of knowing that there is gonna be something. I wanted to share something with you, uh, 'cause I wanna get, this is like my time to, uh, get your opinion on something. I like to talk about this method that I have, and I call them cold shower conversations, and this is when I need to have something like a heart-to-heart moment-

    2. DR

      Mm

    3. JF

      ... and I know it's gonna be, it's not gonna feel good.

    4. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JF

      I know I'm not gonna feel good and they're not gonna feel good. It's like, uh-

    6. DR

      Cold plunge

    7. JF

      ... a cold plunge or that-

    8. DR

      Mm

    9. JF

      ... that cold shower. I mean, we're gonna be arching our back because it's not gonna be fun. But after a while you get used to the temperature-

    10. DR

      Mm

    11. JF

      ... and you start to, your nervous system starts to catch up and starts to regulate itself. And so sometimes I'll say, "I need to have a cold shower conversation with you."

    12. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JF

      Which is informing them of, it's not gonna be comfortable for a little bit-

    14. DR

      Mm-hmm

    15. JF

      ... but I'm gonna be in it with you, and we're gonna get through it. Do you find that that's... Is that something that is, uh, [laughs] I guess, I guess Dave approved?

    16. DR

      Absolutely. Yeah, because what happens is, um, your brain trains yourself, the more of those you have, the more of them you'll have.

    17. JF

      And it easier, the easier it is to get them.

    18. DR

      You didn't die from it.

    19. JF

      Right. Yeah.

    20. DR

      You thought you were gonna die. There's a part of your lizard brain that says you're gonna die from this. You're not gonna die. And actually good things happen versus if you don't deal with it.

    21. JF

      Right.

    22. DR

      Bad things happen. And so that, you know, i- it's, it builds your faith.

    23. JF

      Mm.

    24. DR

      You know? Um, and so, you know, I got a cold plunge and, uh, decided I was gonna do all this stuff 'cause all you cool people are doing it. And so, uh-

    25. JF

      [laughs] Oh, I'm not one of the cool people.

    26. DR

      It's cold, man. And so, um, yeah, I'm, I'm at, uh, four minutes at 48.

    27. JF

      Hey.

    28. DR

      And, um, my, my son-in-law's laughing. He says I'm, I'm a wuss at that. But, um-

    29. JF

      Hey, you have my respect

    30. DR

      ... anyway, the, uh, but the first time I did it I thought I was gonna die.

  17. 1:16:29 – 1:22:28

    Fear of disappointment: accept it, prioritize life over feelings, expect messiness

    1. JF

      ... and all that's there. And, man, that's, that's, uh, a beautiful insight. Thank you for calling it out. I, I wanna wrap us up by this idea of there's somebody who's afraid to say something, and you hit on this a minute ago. I wanna look at it a different way. There's somebody who is afraid to say something because they are deeply concerned that they're gonna disappoint the other person, and they are not sure how in the world they can face that kind of disappointment. What kind of message of hope... First I wanna know how, how do you, how do you get over that feeling, that fear? Let me ask that differently. One, how do you get over the fear of disappointing someone? And second of all, what's the message of hope that you have for them?

    2. DR

      Hmm. Um, well, I, I, I don't know if you ever get over that fear. Um, it's limited the more that you value, uh, the help that the person receives.

    3. JF

      Hmm.

    4. DR

      Is the help more important than the disappointment? Is the, um, you know, uh, again, we can use an extreme example. Your, you know, your high school buddy, your friend-

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm

    6. DR

      ... for 20 years is doing cocaine. So, you know, how concerned am I about him being disappointed in me-

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm

    8. DR

      ... for saying, "Dude, you're killing yourself."

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    10. DR

      "You've lost all your relationships. You lost your job. You lost your wife. You're doing cocaine. You know, you've gotta get some help, dude."

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DR

      And I, it, when you get to some extr- sometimes if I extrapolate something out to an extreme like that, that's an extreme situation.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. DR

      Then it tells me I'm not really concerned about a disappointment. My fear of him being disappointed, I'm pretty much guaranteed he's gonna be disappointed.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. DR

      No one likes to be confronted in their drug use. I've never met anybody that li- thought that thought that was-

    17. JF

      Right

    18. DR

      ... wonderful. Oh, thank you.

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. DR

      I've never heard of that happening. You know, there's a, an intervention and everybody, every, and the, and the druggee just loved it.

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DR

      Not- never, never heard of that happening, you know? So 100% chance they're gonna be disappointed, so. But I'm much more concerned about them and their life and their, than, than I am their disappointment. So I, I think first is I gotta accept that there's disappointment And then-

    23. JF

      Number one is, uh, accept that-

    24. DR

      It's gonna happen

    25. JF

      ... they will be disappointed

    26. DR

      They will be disappointed.

    27. JF

      There's no getting over that.

    28. DR

      Now, how much do I care?

    29. JF

      Mm.

    30. DR

      Um, you know, versus them doing cocaine, or versus the situation I'm addressing, right?

Episode duration: 1:22:29

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