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Dr. Becky: How to Stay Patient When You’re Triggered

Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter This one’s for the parents—or anyone raising little humans. I sit down with Dr. Becky Kennedy, clinical psychologist and bestselling author of Good Inside, to unpack what’s really behind kids’ “bad behavior.” We talk about the mindset shift every parent needs, the three words that can calm any meltdown, and how to hold firm boundaries without losing connection. If you’ve ever thought, “Why won’t my kid just listen?” — this conversation will change the way you see those moments forever. If you want to check out Good Inside, the platform Dr. Becky built, you can head to goodinside.com and use the code JEFFERSON15 for 15% off your first membership. That’s JEFFERSON15, https://www.goodinside.com/ — offer expires December 31st, 2025. Thank you to our Sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. https://cozyearth.com/pages/jefferson Masa Chips. Get 25% off at https://www.masachips.com/pages/jefferson Momentous. Visit https://www.livemomentous.com/ and use code JEFFERSON for 35% off your first order. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/

Jefferson FisherhostDr. Becky Kennedyguest
Oct 14, 202548mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:08

    Misbehavior as a need signal (skill deficit, not a character flaw)

    1. JF

      This episode is for the parents, uh, or really anybody who's responsible for little ones. I've brought you the one, the only, Dr. Becky. You know her as Dr. Becky Kennedy. She's a clinical psychologist, the bestselling author of the book Good Inside, and founder of the parenting platform Good Inside, which I can promise you my wife and we both are members of the app. She is the millennial parenting whisperer. Dr. Becky, thank you so much for coming on.

    2. BK

      I have actually truly been very much looking forward to that. I know we both are guests often on people's podcasts, and it's an easy thing to say, but-

    3. JF

      Yeah

    4. BK

      ... I feel like obviously we've been friends for a while, and I'm, I'm so excited to do this.

    5. JF

      Yeah, me too. It's, uh, we, you and I have known each other, uh, probably, what, over a year at least now? Has it been?

    6. BK

      Yeah, probably two, I'd say.

    7. JF

      Yeah, I feel like time is-

    8. BK

      Time flies when you're old, you know?

    9. JF

      F- yeah.

    10. BK

      Like us.

    11. JF

      Yeah, like us. Yeah, it's, uh-

    12. BK

      [laughs]

    13. JF

      I feel like it's, uh, zoomed by, it really has, being able to support you through every, all the changes that you have, and you've certainly been there for me with all the things that we have going on. To be able to talk to you finally, um, face-to-face, even virtually, is a true pleasure. So thank you very much for coming on the podcast. And I'm excited for all the things I'm about to ask you. I have a lot. So one of the things that you have, uh, and I, I think it's in your book, 'cause I know I have it underlined, is that when you realize that misbehavior in kids is, uh, is a skill and not a character issue-

    14. BK

      Mm-hmm

    15. JF

      ... things begin to change. I know I'm paraphrasing here.

    16. BK

      Yeah.

    17. JF

      And I, I, that to me... Now you know, for anybody listening, I have two kids, ages seven and five. How old are yours, Becky?

    18. BK

      13, 10, and seven.

    19. JF

      Yeah, okay, you got, you're in a different way... Okay, you, we each have at least a seven, seven-year-old.

    20. BK

      Yes

    21. JF

      ... and you're, you're on the, a different scale than me.

    22. BK

      [laughs]

    23. JF

      So I, when I read that, when I read that, immediately was like, man, that was powerful.

    24. BK

      Mm.

    25. JF

      'Cause I know with my daughter, that happened this morning, Dr. Becky, this morning. My son having a great just, he's got bedhead, you know, his hair is everywhere, and he's just eating his cereal, and my daughter is just like an, a tornado. Just anybody who's in her vicinity, she is going to wreck their morning. That's just kinda how it feels sometimes.

    26. BK

      [laughs]

    27. JF

      It's like if you're just in the vicinity, you know you're gonna, you're gonna get it. But when you put, have that line that misbehavior is a skill-

    28. BK

      Mm-hmm

    29. JF

      ... not a character flaw, tell me what that means to you, 'cause I, I love it.

    30. BK

      Yeah. So I think, I don't know exactly how I said it in the book, but I, I think the way I'd say it now, it, it is two ways. 'Cause we all, I feel like, need different language-

  2. 4:08 – 5:40

    Visible behavior vs invisible identity: why our brains misjudge kids

    1. JF

      I, I so much relate to that. Um-

    2. BK

      [laughs]

    3. JF

      ... I, in my communication stuff, and of course anybody who's listening, we, they listen for the communication tips-

    4. BK

      Yeah

    5. JF

      ... and we're gonna talk about the practical stuff, is that we do the same thing with our words. You say nice things to someone, th- th- instantly you're a nice person. You hear somebody say mean things, instantly that's a mean person. Or they say funny things, you're like, "Oh, that's a funny person." And I hear that in relation to our kids.

    6. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      Our kids misbehave, they're a bad kid. Um-

    8. BK

      Yeah

    9. JF

      ... you know, a kid says something, they say, "Thank you," or, "Yes sir," or, "No ma'am," or whatever, you go, "Oh, it's a very polite kid." Uh, and so it's so easy how we hear one little snippet and we-

    10. BK

      Yeah

    11. JF

      ... apply that whole label to their whole identity.

    12. BK

      Uh, that, that's exactly it. And look, I mean, we could talk about this in parenting and communication.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. BK

      We could talk about this in, like, a world global scale-

    15. JF

      Mm

    16. BK

      ... and, you know, how quick we are to judge. It's happening everywhere. But, you know, behavior, the thing about it is, is it's visible. Like, literally, you can see behavior. You see a kid hit. You see your daughter who's a tornado or your son who's a tornado.

    17. JF

      [laughs]

    18. BK

      And when your kid says, you know, "You're the worst parent in the world, I hate you, you never do anything fun for me," right after you, like, took off work and took them to an amusement park, and all you did was ask them to, like, change out of their pajamas-

    19. JF

      [laughs]

    20. BK

      ... that's not, like, provoke-

    21. JF

      Momentous

    22. BK

      ... whole moment. You're like, "We're just talking about the pajamas I just bought you," right?

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. BK

      Um, what happened, our brain just takes what's visible, behavior, and it collapses it into identity, which is always inherently invisible. It lives inside someone.

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm.

  3. 5:40 – 6:52

    Framework before strategy: switching the ‘road’ changes everything

    1. BK

      And then we just start asking the wrong questions, and we start intervening in ways that just deepens the problem, right? 'Cause our initial framework, whether you see behavior as a character deficit or a skill deficit, determines everything you do next. And often people say, "Well, what do I do? What do I say?" And, "Give me a new strategy. Nothing's working." If nothing's working with your kid, what I would say is actually you don't need a new strategy You don't need a new script. You definitely don't need me to, like, tell you something to parrot. It's not gonna feel like you anyway. Probably the framework with which you see the situation, that's the thing that's not working. And so we have to start with a framework shift, which is kind of like saying the road you're on is just a bad, unproductive road. So, like, nothing along that road that's an unproductive road is going to help. We need to slow down and switch roads, and once we understand a new road and there's a part of you that says, "Oh, that, maybe that is what's going on for my kid," now we can get concrete and think about strategies or different scripts or things to say, but it's actually about switching the road first.

    2. JF

      When you say road, is that, like, the-

    3. BK

      Yeah

    4. JF

      ... mindset? When you're saying, like, that, is that, is that related-

    5. BK

      I-

    6. JF

      ... or is it?

  4. 6:52 – 10:41

    Least Generous vs Most Generous Interpretation (LGI vs MGI)

    1. BK

      I think so, yeah. I mean, to me, yeah, mindset, road, like, I guess, you know, whatever visual makes sense, but yes, your mindset is the thing you tell yourself. It's your interpretation of what's happening. And so again, I know I'm a concrete person too. Because we tend to see what's visible, behavior, and assume we know everything about the person, what's actually happening interpretation-wise is something I call the, the least generous interpretation. We all tend to default to that LGI. Like, you see your kid, I don't know, jump on the couch, and you say very kindly, "Bobby, Bobby, I'm gonna need you to stop jumping on the couch. You're right near that glass table. I don't want you to crack your head open," whatever we say. And it depends on your kid and their temperament, but I have at least one kid like Bobby, let's just say that, and that kid would look at me, smile, and continue jumping on the couch, but this time harder. And what we do is this LGI, least generous interpretation. We say, "My kid's a sociopath. My kid's a sociopath. That's it. My kid's a sociopath. They're gonna be in jail. They're disrespectful." And then everything that follows after, Jefferson, right, it's nothing to do with my kid jumping on the couch. Everything that happens after is only because that interpretation in my mind, that least generous interpretation. What do you do if you think your kid's a sociopath? You punish them. You make random empty threats you have no intention of keeping but just feel good to, like, yell out in the moment.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      And we just end up getting more incendiary with our kid versus MGI, most generous interpretation. And this is, this is really powerful with any relationship, just saying, like, what is the most generous interpretation of why my kid would continue jumping on the couch or jump doubly as hard after I said to stop? And, and there's no right answer, but in that example, again, which is a framework, a thought, a road, whatever you wanna call it, maybe I'd say, "Well, I do know this kid. All kids crave autonomy. This kid of mine, that's basically an orienting principle." It's kind of like Bobby thinks, "If I'm not in charge, I'm nobody, and this is almost an existential threat to have to listen to my parent." And also, I don't know, he had a bad day. Someone made fun of him at school, and so he's really looking for a moment to feel, you know, extra in power. Once I have that interpretation, it doesn't make the jumping okay. That's what I would say. "Oh, so it's okay that-

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm

    5. BK

      ... he jumped after you said..." No, no, it's not about okay. It's just about being effective. But now I might say, "Oh, well, he's clearly not able to make a good decision. I know Bobby. I should just go over there and say, 'If you're not off the couch by the time I get there, sweetie, I will take you off the couch because it's just unsafe to jump near the glass table.'" And now all of a sudden, I'm acting in a way where I'm on the same team as my kid, and I'm actually protecting my kid and helping my kid versus seeing him and kind of treating him like he's my mortal enemy.

    6. JF

      This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. My favorite thing that I have probably in my house, without a doubt right now, are my bedsheets. Like, after this episode, I'm gonna be going to bed, and you know what sheets are on my bed? That's right, Cozy Earth. And I know you might be saying, "Well, Jefferson, they're a sponsor." Let me tell you, I liked them before they were a sponsor. That's why they are a sponsor, because these things keep me nice and cool, and I did not know at this age of my life that bedsheets were gonna mean that much to me. Now, Cozy Earth has lots of awesome things. They have lots of pretty much anything you can think of soft. Their, their bath towels, um, their sweatshirts, their hoodies, their pants. There's all kinds of stuff that's fantastic. But I right now really are, I'm digging the bedsheets. You can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson, and get 40% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson, to get 40% off. Their trial period, their money back

  5. 10:41 – 13:33

    The fast-forward error: projecting a scary future onto today’s moment

    1. JF

      guarantee, fantastic. You need to go try it, cozyearth.com. And now let's get going with the episode. I- in my experience, it's very easy to when I see maybe my son's acting out, my mind, out of that fear of every parent wanting their kid to be the best as they can be, a wonderful human, a good citizen, we see that one incident st- we see that one instance of their character, and I can, in my mind, see, you know, them at 30 years old making all the, the terrible decisions. And I, all of a sudden I'm blaming myself for who I, in my mind, I am, like you said, giving the least generous interpretation of their behavior and now going, "Okay, well, now they're on the path to doing terrible things," instead of just seeing that one little instance of, no, he just wanted a, you know, he wanted a extra piece of gum. You know? Like, uh, of just understanding that they're not getting what they want, and I'm, instead of just looking at that one little instance, I am projecting out a fear that is most likely never going to actually evolve.

    2. BK

      Yeah. And I, I think that particular thing where we see this moment that's hard with our kid and we fast-forward 30 years in our life, the reason that's a big problem is because we respond today with all the feelings we would have for the next 30 years [laughs] versus-

    3. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    4. BK

      ... just like, "Oh, wait, I have a four-year-old," right?

    5. JF

      [laughs]

    6. BK

      And I think it's helpful to give things names.

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. BK

      Like, I call that, and I try to, I catch myself all the time. And just 'cause I can talk about this doesn't mean I can, you know, doesn't mean I can do it. So I'm like, "Ugh, I'm doing the fast-forward error." That's just what I call it, fast-forward error.

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. BK

      Like, I'm fast-forwarding the worst, least generous scenario.

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      And then if I use that to respond, I'm gonna respond with so much anger, and I'm almost responding, me and you, Jefferson, both, like, we're almost responding just to prove to ourselves we're a good parent. Like, we're not actually giving our kid, again, what they need. And so the flip side that I find very helpful Is when your kid acts out, the truth is they're always younger today than they will be in the future. I know that sounds like a really silly thing to say, but it's helpful to me. And what that means is the stakes are always lower today, whether your kid hits at age four-

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm

    14. BK

      ... you know, I don't know, says, "I hate you" at age eight, cheats on a test at age 13, all of those are lower stakes than when your kid is 18, 25, and 30. And so the good news, right, I think there's a book called The Good News About Bad Behavior, but really the good news about that is, "Oh, wait, I can actually help my kid build a skill they are clearly missing today before 30 years from now." And then the moment that, yes, of course, is a hard parenting moment becomes like this really high-impact parenting moment where you can actually help your kid become more resilient today and years from now.

    15. JF

      Uh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I, um, I wanna ask you a question on... This is a pers- this is for me. This is a personal one.

    16. BK

      Yeah, let's do it.

    17. JF

      Forget there's, there's nobody listening.

    18. BK

      No one's listening.

  6. 13:33 – 16:08

    Letting siblings argue (with limits): parenting for the long run

    1. JF

      Uh, no one's listening, just us. So my, my wife and I, with our two kids, um, is we encourage argument at the house.

    2. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JF

      It's not that we go, "Oh, yeah, argue," it's that when they, when they do argue, which is often, about anything-

    4. BK

      Yeah

    5. JF

      ... you know, s- "He's touching me when he's not. He's near my space when he's not. He has that toy that I haven't... I, I, I don't even remember it's existed for six years, and all of a sudden, you know, he has it," is we allow the argument to happen. So we say, "As long as you're not name-calling, as long as you're not hitting, and as long as you're not, um, kinda bragging the, "look what I got" kind of behavior," we allow them to talk.

    6. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      Because it's like, "Nope, y'all talk it out." That's usually our phrase.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. JF

      "Y'all, y'all work it out. Y'all work it out."

    10. BK

      Yep.

    11. JF

      Because it, we want to, to teach them these skills now-

    12. BK

      Great

    13. JF

      ... versus waiting until later. I want to know, since I have you on the clock-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. JF

      ... here with me, what do you think about that?

    16. BK

      I, I mean, I love it, right? And I think, I think what you're saying, big picture, and then we'll just come back for the sibling rivalry and sibling co- conflict stuff, is I'm parenting for the long run.

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. BK

      Like, that's what I always say at Good Inside. We're very long-term greedy. Like, okay, when our kids are 30, they're gonna be in a relationship with people they love and in moments they really don't get along with, they want something that a person has, they're jealous, they're angry, they're disappointed. Like, those skills, managing anger, um, communicating in a respectful way even when you're angry at someone that you wanna continue being in a relationship with, nobody gives those skills at 30. Like, no one's like, "You're 30, here's, as you know, here's communication skills."

    19. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. BK

      "You're 25. Here, now you know how to manage jealousy." Like, these, when parents say to me, "Well, at what age will my kids stop arguing? At what age will my kids stop freaking out about small things?" [laughs] What I say is, like, again-

    21. JF

      Yeah

    22. BK

      ... what would you say if someone said, "At what age will your kid learn how to swim?" Like, there's no-

    23. JF

      [laughs] Right.

    24. BK

      I don't know. Like, what are you doing with the-

    25. JF

      Yeah

    26. BK

      ... the years?

    27. JF

      N-

    28. BK

      Right?

    29. JF

      N- not until they get in the water, you know?

    30. BK

      Yeah, like, well, have they learned how to swim? Are they level one? Are they level two? No one just, like, gets it at an age. We have age wrong, right? Development, like, and skill building doesn't just unfold. So what you're saying is, "How can I set my kids up to know that, first of all, there are limits. There are certain things that are never allowed in respectful relationships, and there are other things that are allowed. And honestly, you need time and skills and practice to get better at those things. That doesn't just happen with age." And so what you're

  7. 16:08 – 19:18

    Over-functioning traps: the cost of always solving kids’ problems

    1. BK

      saying feels perfectly in line with that overall philosophy, right? It's also why I'm guessing you're not gonna tie your kids' shoes until they're 18 and then expect them to do at age 18. Like, so I think the other thing around that that I think about a lot in this kind of age of over-functioning for our kids is just what jobs do I want to keep having for my kids over the years, and what jobs do I wanna work my way out of? And is my behavior as a parent consistent with that? So, like, my kids when they're older, like, if they're, I don't know, they get fired from a job or they have a breakup, like, I will always be happy if they're like, "Hey, can I talk this out with you?" Like, being there for them in hard moments, always happy to have that job. Like, water bottle rememberer, nope.

    2. JF

      [laughs]

    3. BK

      Like, I, I've, nope.

    4. JF

      Yeah, where your shoes are.

    5. BK

      It's just not a job.

    6. JF

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      Yeah, picking up the towel, um, calling the doctor for your own appointment, checking in, ordering at a restaurant, and deciding who's right or how to move forward in an argument. Like, I think what happens is we often, in the moment with our kids when they're arguing, the quickest, easiest thing to do is something like, "Fine, you get the red cup today, and you get the red cup tomorrow," because in the moment they're like, "Fine." But then we shouldn't be surprised when our kids are, like, you know, instead of four and seven, now all of a sudden they're, like, 13 and 16, and they're, they're fighting about who gets the car, in the car first, something that seems... And we're like, "Why do you guys keep coming to me?" Well, I have locked in this pattern. One kid gets upset at the other. They both come to me. I am the arbiter of who is right, which not only locks yourself into a role you don't want but also reflects back to your kid something that we don't realize we're reflecting back, which is, "I don't think the two of you are capable of solving your own problems-

    8. JF

      Mm

    9. BK

      ... which is why I continue to do it for you." And so not only are we having a job we don't want and depriving our kid of the right to kind of build those skills which they'll need for the rest of their life, we're also kind of saying to our kid that we don't think they're capable of doing something-

    10. JF

      Right

    11. BK

      ... which is why we c- w- which, again, none of those are things we actually want, but our behavior ends up communicating it. So I, I love what you're saying.

    12. JF

      Well-

    13. BK

      There's rules, there's guidelines, there's limits, and then there's space to figure it out.

    14. JF

      Yeah, and, uh, well, one, I'm personally selfishly grateful you approve, because if you didn't, we'd be changing some stuff. Uh, sec-

    15. BK

      If you, if you, if I didn't, you'd just have to lie to my face.

    16. JF

      I, for sure.

    17. BK

      Yeah.

    18. JF

      Absolutely.

    19. BK

      [laughs]

    20. JF

      Um, second of all is I want to, one, highlight for everybody listening here, all right? Dr. Becky has a, an online platform called Good Inside, and this is my plug for it because we use it-

    21. BK

      [laughs]

    22. JF

      ... we love it. All right? We, we, we use it all the time. The book's fantastic. Really love the membership and the community, 'cause that's where you get to go deeper. Um, so, and how many people do you have in it now?

    23. BK

      Um, we're getting up there. You know, north of I think 90,000, something like that.

    24. JF

      Yeah, that's incre-

    25. BK

      And I think the thing I'm-

    26. JF

      Like, that's, that's unreal

    27. BK

      ... proudest of, which really though is, is I think we're at, it's like 110 countries.

    28. JF

      That's incredible.

    29. BK

      So it's, it's just like, it's really, it's amazing how different we are, but how we all struggle with so many of the same things.

    30. JF

      Yeah.

  8. 19:18 – 20:23

    Listening isn’t the real problem: transitions, motivation, and relationship context

    1. BK

      Okay

    2. JF

      ... for the people listening right now, I wanna make sure that they walk away with some very practical tools, um, in terms of behavior, in terms of kids retaliating, in terms of defensiveness. There's something that we like to use here that we got from you, and that is, "I see you need help." So you use that phrase when it's somebody is struggling. We need you to go, "Hey, I need you to go upstairs and go get your shoes on, please." Nothing happens. "All right, I've already said it once. I need you to get on, go get on your shoes." And then if it's, we go, "I see you need help. Let me go with you to go..."

    3. BK

      [laughs]

    4. JF

      And, like, it is-

    5. BK

      Mm-hmm

    6. JF

      ... that's when it's, it's kind of like the one, two, three. Like, my son, I can go one, two. By the time I'm at two-

    7. BK

      [laughs]

    8. JF

      ... he's gone. He's a-

    9. BK

      Yeah

    10. JF

      ... he's a trail of dust. All right?

    11. BK

      Yeah.

    12. JF

      My daughter, she will say three for you. You know what I mean?

    13. BK

      [laughs]

    14. JF

      Like, she's, she has no problem being in your face.

    15. BK

      That's right.

    16. JF

      Yeah. She's what you would call, and in your community knows this, a DFK. Uh-

    17. BK

      Yes

    18. JF

      ... and so I would love for you to talk-

    19. BK

      Deeply feeling kid

    20. JF

      ... yeah, I want you-

    21. BK

      Yes

    22. JF

      ... to talk about that for a second.

  9. 20:23 – 26:52

    Deeply Feeling Kids (DFKs): big reactions, shame, and why typical tactics fail

    1. BK

      Ugh. I mean, there's so many things in what you just said. So first of all, just I'll start with listening, and then I'll go to deeply feeling kids, 'cause they're, they're definitely a little bit different, and they're, like, my, my passion project within the passion project of Good Inside. Listening is a r- i- is probably, I think, one of the most common... It's one of the most common struggles we have, even though we don't tend to name it in our head because you, but you actually need your kid to listen, like, a million times a day. Right? If you think about all the moments that are hard with your kid, it's probably a transition. Either transition to the table, transition to putting on your shoes, transition out of the house, transition to ending screen time, transition to bedtime. Like, there's a million transitions, and in all those moments, you need your kid to listen. And we all tend to say the same thing. Me too, when I'm complaining to my friends. "My kid doesn't listen, my kid doesn't listen. They don't respect me. I, I was never like this with my parents." We all say the same thing. But I think the reframe that really matters and inherently then changes our strategy is that when we say, "My kid doesn't listen," we really mean something very different. Because you and I, Jefferson, even your daughter, if you're like, "Come to the table and you can, I don't know, watch an iPad for, you know, three hours and have an ice cream sundae," my guess is she wouldn't even, she would not count. She'd be, like, right there. Um, and so really, we mean what happens when I ask my kid to do something I want them to do and they don't inherently want to do? Which just begs the question, well, what do I do in my life when someone I love asks me to do something I don't want to do but they want me to do? And it, and it's nuanced. It has to do-

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm

    3. BK

      ... a little bit with the moment and how they ask. But probably even more than that, it has to do with stuff outside the moment and how our relationship feels and how listened to and seen I feel in general in that relationship. And then for kids, it has to do with other stuff, too. They, they can't really hold on to multi-step directions. They prioritize the moment more than the future, like, stuff with their immature brain. But going to your daughter, there are these kids, yes, I call them deeply feeling kids, and this all happened, kind of my approach with these kids, 'cause I had my second kid, and before I had my second, I re- I really, really thought I knew what I was doing. Like, I was giving a lot of advice to people, and they'd say, like, "It doesn't work." And, you know, to their face, I was nice. I was like, "Well, let's try other things." And in my head, I was like, "I think you're, I think you're doing it wrong." You know?

    4. JF

      [laughs]

    5. BK

      Judging [laughs] and judging silently. And, and then I had my second kid, and I was like, oh my goodness. I know what I'm doing, and I, I'm not doing it, quote, "wrong." I, this is the same thing I did with my son, but-

    6. JF

      Yeah

    7. BK

      ... how is it that I do the same thing? And yeah, they are not people-pleasing. So when you're like, kind of, "I'm gonna be disappointed," or, "I'm gonna take away your dessert," they're like, "I don't even like dessert." And you're like, "Oh, shoot."

    8. JF

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      "I just lost all my power." Right?

    10. JF

      Right.

    11. BK

      Um, and they have big expressions. And these kids, I think the key thing to know about them is that they really have a lot of shame-

    12. JF

      Mm

    13. BK

      ... next to their vulnerable feelings. So without shame, kids can allow their vulnerability to be seen. You're like, "Oh, you're having a hard time. You need help." And inside they're kind of like, "I do need help. That feels really good to hear." Right? Now, some deeply feeling kids, because of that shame, when you try to help in the moments they need you the most, they can explode. They say things that feel totally out of proportion. "I hate you. You're the worst. Get out. You'll never understand me. You don't even want me in this family." And then you're like, "I, I, I, I literally just am trying to get you to gymnastics class. Like, how did this become about wanting you in this family?" Like, it gets dark and deep.

    14. JF

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      And I think we then misunderstand those kids further by taking it personally, saying, "Oh, you're being so dramatic. Why can't you be like your brother? You make everything hard," which almost confirms their worst fear, "See? I am too much and too different for this family in the first place," and kind of we're off to the races. And I think for those kids, I just want parents listening, you know, 'cause there's so much more, there's so much more I want to say about that that I can't get into the podcast, is just you're not making it up. These kids really are more explosive. They are more challenging. Um, traditional parenting things that help other kids actually don't help these kids. Like, a- again, you're not, like, crazy. Like, I hope you're just like, "Oh my goodness, okay. It's not just me." And, and you are so not alone. Um, you are not the only one with kids like this. Jefferson and I both have kids like this.

    16. JF

      Yeah.

    17. BK

      And honestly, in our, yeah, in our, in our Good Inside program, um, it's one of the most popular programs, 'cause I think it's, you know, a place where, again, not only do you get help, but you can connect with other parents and with our coaches who really understand those kids. So you're not crazy, and you're not alone.

    18. JF

      Before we keep going, I want to take a second to tell you about Masa Chips. Y'all, these chips And yes, you might go, "Jefferson, chips?" Yeah, chips. I have been in love with these things. The big difference with Masa Chips, and they're, they're tortilla chips, is that they're made with 100% grass-fed beef tallow instead of cheap seed oil. So when you eat them, you don't feel, like, greasy, you don't feel blegh afterwards. And I cannot tell you the amount of times I have opened a bag or gotten out a bag and had just a few, a few, and I go off and do something, and I come back, and one of my two kids has heard the bag, found them, and that bag is now empty. They cannot get enough of them. And the best thing about it is you don't feel like you had something to where you feel bad. You feel like you had a real snack, and it's not just a bag of empty calories. Masa Chips is beloved by tens of thousands of customers and has been endorsed by industry-leading health and nutrition experts. So if you're ready to give Masa Chips a try, which I highly recommend, go to masachips.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 25% off your first order. That's masachips.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 25% off your first order. And now, back to the episode. I, uh, told my son this is, this is what he does now. Uh, he, he loves LEGOs. I was like, "All right, man, come on. We need to stop what we're doing and get the shoes on. We gotta go, uh, go pick up a friend." And he just goes, um, "No, thank you. Ah, Dad, no. No, thank you, Dad."

    19. BK

      [laughs]

    20. JF

      Like, that's his big thing. Anytime I ask him to do, "Hey, I need you to go take a bath."

    21. BK

      [laughs]

    22. JF

      "No, thank you." Like, that is his, and he's-

    23. BK

      [laughs]

    24. JF

      He means it. He really means it. He's, "Ah, thanks, Dad." "No, thanks."

    25. BK

      So what do you do? What do you do?

    26. JF

      I usually laugh.

    27. BK

      You get more creative?

    28. JF

      Yeah, I usu-

    29. BK

      Yeah

    30. JF

      ... I usually-

  10. 26:52 – 27:09

    Regulating yourself first: the most important ‘script’ is self-talk

    1. JF

      ... I'm curious, uh, what have you found to be, in all of your research, all the things you do for your Good Inside community, as well as your book, what are some of the most helpful scripts that you-

    2. BK

      Gosh

    3. JF

      ... have not only used personally, but you, you find that most people, uh, go, "Hey, this really is some stuff that works"?

  11. 27:09 – 32:53

    Three powerful words: “I believe you” (validation without surrender)

    1. BK

      Yeah. Um, I, I think, so I'm gonna start with what I think is the foundation. I think when we're looking for, like, the most helpful scripts or what to say, honestly, the most important thing is how you talk to yourself. I will definitely give-

    2. JF

      Mm

    3. BK

      ... scripts for what to say to your kid, but they won't even come to mind to use. Any parent who's like, "But I memorize them, and in the moment, I just scream at my kid," what that tells me is we're so triggered in the situation, or we're looking at the situation, again, like, through a set of glasses that's just such a kind of me-against-you, my-kid-is-the-enemy moment, that of course when we're in that mindset, we literally don't have access to the things that we learned in a different way. So step one for a script to me is actually how we talk to ourselves. So-

    4. JF

      Mm

    5. BK

      ... number one, just this idea of most generous interpretation really helps. And another way of saying that is just, "I have a good kid who's having a hard time." I promise you, in any hard moment with your kid, instead of thinking about what to say to them, if you say to yourself, "I have a good kid who's having a hard time," and yes, another version of that is, "I am a good parent who is having a hard time," that is true, you are doing something very powerful in that you are literally separating identity, "I have a good kid"-

    6. JF

      Mm

    7. BK

      ... from behavior, which is whatever they're doing, that indicates they are having a hard time. Because when a kid is hitting, when a kid says, "I hate you," when a kid lies to your face, when a kid has a meltdown, you know, at the exact moment that you're with your extended family and you're trying to kind of show off what an amazing family you have, like, all that means is your kid is having a hard time. They're not-

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm

    9. BK

      ... doing something to you. They are struggling. So that phrase, "I have a good kid having a hard time," is a very simple way of holding this duality and kind of separating identity and behavior. So that to me is the number one script. Okay, then what actually, uh, else is really, really helpful, to me, three words are probably, I think there are three words that I would wish every single parent to say to their kid, like, almost every day. And I'll, I'll say them. No one really has to write them down 'cause it's three words.

    10. JF

      I'm, I'm probably gonna write them down-

    11. BK

      Okay, get ready

    12. JF

      ... as soon as we end this, yeah.

    13. BK

      Just, "I believe you."

    14. JF

      Oh.

    15. BK

      Okay? And in almost every hard moment with our kids, they are really just looking to be believed. They, I, I mean, probably in every hard moment between two adults, someone's looking to be believed because our feelings are just so different from other hard moments or hard things that happen. Like, if you run and trip and skin your knee, and you're like, "Ouch," right? That, like, really hurts. Like, someone saw you fall. You, you see blood. Like, you see the scrape. It is so-

    16. JF

      Mm

    17. BK

      ... obvious externally what happened, right? It's so obvious what's real. Feelings are unlike anything else i- in that they, they course through our body in such a visceral, intense way. Like, any- anyone listening, me and you, Jefferson, like, I'm sure we have moments-

    18. JF

      Mm

    19. BK

      ... where you can remember, like, the way your heart felt, what your stomach felt like, the way your whole body felt, what was going on in your mind. Like, it is more intense than the blood from skinning your knee. But, like, it's not, it's not observable to you or someone else. That, i- it's very confusing, and it's really confusing for a kid, right? And so I often think that validating feelings, which I should say is widely misunderstood as agreeing with feelings or as letting-

    20. JF

      Mm-hmm

    21. BK

      ... your kid's feelings be in the driver's seat, neither of which Good Inside stands for. Validating feelings is essentially like saying to a kid- I believe that what you are experiencing is real inside of you. Like, when you say to a kid, and I'll sh- go examples, "I believe you," this is gonna get real existential, but I feel like what you're saying to them is, "You are real"-

    22. JF

      Mm-hmm

    23. BK

      ... which is kind of the thing we're all fighting to feel in our worst moments. And when we don't feel it, we really escalate our behavior just so someone will hopefully believe us, and then they usually invalidate us more, and we're in an awful direction. So a bunch of examples. Like, even that, like, "Okay, time to go, you know, do bath." "No, I'm playing with my Legos." "Ugh, I believe you."

    24. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BK

      "I believe you. You really wanna stay with your Legos." Any of it, right? "I had the worst day at school." "Oh, why? What happened?" "I had the worst day at school. The whole day was horrible because I had to go second on the slide." Okay, now you and I are like, like, really? And this is where we do the fast-forward error. Oh my God, am I gonna have that ki- kind of kid who can't even tolerate one moment?

    26. JF

      Right.

    27. BK

      Am I gonna have... Right? If you actually just say, "Oh, I believe you," and then you're like, zip it. Zip it and count to 692 in your head before you say anything [laughs] else-

    28. JF

      Yeah

    29. BK

      ... I promise you your kid will deescalate. And you're not setting bad habits, because you know what helps a kid when they're an adult take a small moment and stay calm instead of making it into their whole day? It's their ability to believe themself. I believe myself. This thing really is hard.

    30. JF

      Mm.

  12. 32:53 – 35:38

    Support phrases that work: “That’s a bummer” and staying out of fix-it mode

    1. JF

      The, um, a phrase, I wanna say that we got it, I feel like everything we've done-

    2. BK

      Mm

    3. JF

      ... we got from you with our k- kids is, uh, that's a bummer. Like, so-

    4. BK

      Mm

    5. JF

      ... we'll have-

    6. BK

      Yes

    7. JF

      ... my, my son or daughter, they'll complain about something, and they don't wanna go do it.

    8. BK

      Mm.

    9. JF

      And I'll go, "I know. That's a bummer." Like, uh, just that right there-

    10. BK

      Love it

    11. JF

      ... it's like, oh, okay. They just, it's like they get it out right then. Now they don't really complain-

    12. BK

      Yeah

    13. JF

      ... about it anymore. But as long as I'm like, "Yeah, that's a bummer. I, I agree," it's... My daughter's really quick to go, "This is the worst day ever."

    14. BK

      [laughs]

    15. JF

      And I'm like, "I know."

    16. BK

      Yeah.

    17. JF

      "It's a bummer, isn't it?"

    18. BK

      Bummer.

    19. JF

      I know.

    20. BK

      And that's-

    21. JF

      Yeah

    22. BK

      ... a version, this is what I love when parents tell me. Like, to me-

    23. JF

      Yeah

    24. BK

      ... I believe you. They're literally words I say, but there's so many extensions that whether you're-

    25. JF

      For sure

    26. BK

      ... you, Jefferson, or someone else, you're like, this is my version. Like, for me-

    27. JF

      Yep

    28. BK

      ... my version of that's a bummer, that feels very much me, I'm like, "Oh, that stinks."

    29. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    30. BK

      "Oh, that stinks when that happens."

  13. 35:38 – 40:14

    The ‘You really wish…’ script: teaching disappointment and acceptance

    1. BK

      Can I give one more script-

    2. JF

      Please

    3. BK

      ... that's really helpful?

    4. JF

      Yeah, that's, that's what we're here for, yeah.

    5. BK

      Great. You really wish, and I'll show some examples of how you could fill that in, but that's the starting script. You really wish. And I'll tell you also the long-term impact. So let's say, I don't know, when my kids were younger, this is one of my kids-

    6. JF

      Mm-hmm

    7. BK

      ... I can't even tell you the number of mornings he's like, "I want ice cream sundae for breakfast." Which is, like, not one of our breakfast options on the usual. Except for birthdays-

    8. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    9. BK

      ... where the kids can choose anything they want. And meanwhile, just so you know, it's not like we have some, like, super healthy house. Like, my kids have basically sugary waffles that just feel-

    10. JF

      [laughs]

    11. BK

      ... more breakfast to me than-

    12. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

    13. BK

      ... ice cream sundaes, but-

    14. JF

      Right. [laughs]

    15. BK

      ... ice cream sundae is just, it feels like a little much.

    16. JF

      Sure.

    17. BK

      You know, "I want ice cream sundae. I want ice cream sundae. Ugh, all, all my friends get ice cream sundaes." Obviously, it's not true, right? And I would say to him, right, in addition to holding the boundary, 'cause that's the other thing-

    18. JF

      Mm-hmm

    19. BK

      ... about Good Inside that I just wanna make sure gets in here. Like-

    20. JF

      Yes

    21. BK

      ... we are equally about validating feelings, which we're talking about, as we are about holding boundaries. This is where we've over-corrected as a world. We've gone from kids' feelings not mattering to kids' feelings dictating our decisions. I would say both extremes are equally-

    22. JF

      Right

    23. BK

      ... bad for children, where what's in the middle is I can see my kids' feelings as real, and I can still know I'm the pilot of the plane. Like, you know, just 'cause-

    24. JF

      Yes

    25. BK

      ... the passenger is freaking out doesn't mean- I need to freak out-

    26. JF

      Right

    27. BK

      ... or I need to change directions, right? So okay, so I was not giving ice cream Sundays for breakfast, and one of the lines I'd say here and there is just like, "Ugh, you really wish you could have ice cream. I get it. You really wish."

    28. JF

      Yeah.

    29. BK

      I remember the morning that he came out to me, and the first thing he said was, "I really wish I could have an ice cream sandwich for breakfast." Uh, when you use the language of wishing, and don't use it, like, a million times a day.

    30. JF

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

  14. 40:14 – 48:06

    Skill-building takes time: the swim-lesson analogy + repair over perfection

    1. JF

      and teaching, uh, first our son of, you know, when you're getting really worked up, 'cause he, he's our big feeler. He feels everybody's emotions. So he doesn't wanna... He won't do something if sister doesn't get it 'cause he's feels like she's gonna be disappointed.

    2. BK

      Mm.

    3. JF

      He feels everybody's emotions. Daughter feels nobody's emotions, cares about nobody's emotions.

    4. BK

      [laughs]

    5. JF

      And so it's, it's such a fun dynamic. But, uh, to your point, he was upstairs one time, and she's getting really worked up about something, and we just hear, "Take a breath," like that... He was from upstairs telling her to take a breath, uh, shouting, shouting down at her. And we're like, okay, well, that's... He's not wrong, but-

    6. BK

      Yeah

    7. JF

      ... let's, let's talk about it a, a different way.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. JF

      So t- hearing, hearing your kids, the point is-

    10. BK

      Yes

    11. JF

      ... your, your kids really do absorb it. They, they really do. What, what you pour into them, they might, may not show up right away, but over time, it, it really does.

    12. BK

      A- and just to double-click on that, it does not show up right away. Like, I just-

    13. JF

      Yeah

    14. BK

      ... when I say to my son, "Look, by the time I get over to the couch, if you're not off the couch, sweetie, I will pick you up and put you on the ground, 'cause it's not safe to jump near the glass table," which by the way, I would say, like, A+ parenting intervention if you're doing it, right? A+. My children have never said to me, like, when I get over to the couch, like, "You're right."

    15. JF

      Mm.

    16. BK

      "It's time to get off," or-

    17. JF

      [laughs]

    18. BK

      ... "You know what? You're such a sturdy parent. I appreciate-

    19. JF

      Right

    20. BK

      ... you protecting me when I'm not able..." No, they scream. They cry. When I say, "You really wish," it's not like the next day they say, "I do wish. Thank you for explaining to me that way." Like-

    21. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    22. BK

      ... I think because we don't and we haven't been educated, that's why. We haven't really gotten a good education as parents in parenting and child development at all. They just are like, "Hope you have a car seat," which we should have at the hospital.

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. BK

      But, like, that's it, as if a car seat's gonna, like, teach us all the things about parenting. I think we have a better understanding of how long it takes a kid to learn how to swim than we do how long it takes a kid to learn how to regulate their emotions. And while swimming for sure-

    25. JF

      That is so true

    26. BK

      ... is, like, a very important life skill, I would say regulating your emotions is an even more important life skill. And I don't know about you, but people say, they're like, "How long till my kid doesn't have tantrums?" And like, okay, Dr. Becky, whether it's, yeah, your app or this therapist I'm seeing, whatever it is, it's a lot of money. A- a- actually, 'cause a drink, we spend, a lot of us, I'm, like, looking like I'm telling a secret, spend a lot of money on our kids' swim lessons, and we tolerate them not swimming for a long time.

    27. JF

      Right.

    28. BK

      And the reason we do that is because we understand the arc. We understand a first couple swim lessons, my kid's not swimming in the deep end. They're not even sw- maybe they're not even putting their head in the water, right?

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. BK

      But we ha-

Episode duration: 48:06

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