Friendship Expert: Stop Asking People What They Do

1. 0:00 – 1:16

   Asymmetric friendships and why adulthood makes friendship feel risky

   1. AGAdam Grant0:00

      Sociologists have found repeatedly that about half the people you name as friends do not see you as a friend back.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:06

      Really?

   3. AGAdam Grant0:06

      I thought this was depressing at first.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:07

      [laughs] Yeah, that would crush me.

   5. AGAdam Grant0:09

      But what I've realized is we have different ideas of what friendship means. Um-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:12

      Tell me more about that.

   7. AGAdam Grant0:13

      Well, let's break down pals, allies, and companions.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:15

      Yeah.

   9. AGAdam Grant0:15

      So allies are people you are pursuing goals with. Pals are people you have fun with. And then companions are the people you go deep with.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher0:22

       But-

   11. AGAdam Grant0:23

       I wouldn't want all your relationships to be companions. There's now a growing body of research showing that if you go to different friends for different things, some as allies, others as pals, others as companions, you actually are happier on average. What's interesting is the kinds of questions we ask people are gonna look different depending on what kind of bond we're trying to form. So if you wanna make an ally, one of the first things you could do is ask them, "What's one of the biggest goals you're trying to achieve this year?" If you're trying to make a pal, the first thing most people do is they ask, "What do you do?" Instead, try asking people, "What do you love to do?" And watch them light up. But what tends to be much more powerful is to skip the small talk and go right to deep talk. There's a whole series of questions that have been studied that actually help with accelerating deep talk.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher1:01

       How important is friction in friendships? Is constant contact good for a relationship? Should you make friends at work? How do you reconnect with a friendship you feel has gone stale?

   13. AGAdam Grant1:11

       I have three go-to habits for reconnecting. Number one is-

2. 1:16 – 6:25

   Why it’s harder to make friends now—and how success and envy complicate it

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:16

      Is it harder to make friends than when we were kids?

   2. AGAdam Grant1:19

      I think it is.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:20

      Yeah.

   4. AGAdam Grant1:20

      What do you think?

   5. JFJefferson Fisher1:21

      I think it's so much harder, man. Like, it is hard at this age to make friends period.

   6. AGAdam Grant1:29

      You don't seem like someone who would be lacking friends though, Jefferson.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher1:32

      Well, it's ... I think there's a big difference between acquaintances and friends. That's, to me, is the, the hard one. I have a lot of acquaintances. I don't know if I'd say I have a lot of, like, friends that are going to be there in those hard moments.

   8. AGAdam Grant1:47

      I'm sorry to hear that.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher1:48

      Yeah.

   10. AGAdam Grant1:48

       I'm here, I'm here to help if I can.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher1:49

       Right. Thank you. [laughs] Yeah. Okay. All right. Exactly.

   12. AGAdam Grant1:52

       Do I extend the offer of friendship now?

   13. JFJefferson Fisher1:53

       Can I, can I get your number now?

   14. AGAdam Grant1:54

       [laughs]

   15. JFJefferson Fisher1:55

       That's right. But I think it was, um ... Who did ... I, I overheard this the other day of, m- maybe it was Simon, of, of, of how you celebrate friends, right? The, the question is not, you know, the people you'd reach out when you're having a hard time, the peach- people you'd reach out to when you're having a, when you have a good win. You know? Who, who you're gonna give your good news to.

   16. AGAdam Grant2:17

       Hmm.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher2:17

       And I'd say I have very f- very few.

   18. AGAdam Grant2:20

       Why is that?

   19. JFJefferson Fisher2:22

       Um, oh, am I ... I think I'm on your podcast now. [laughs]

   20. AGAdam Grant2:25

       [laughs]

   21. JFJefferson Fisher2:25

       I'm on this podcast now already. Uh, because there is a sense of all these wonderful things that have happened in my life really quickly, uh, I'm talking like three years, and I feel like I'm ... I do know based on experience that I've, I've gotten judgmental reactions, and either jealousy or resentment, or I'm either traveling more, or I have this other good thing and this other person doesn't, and it just becomes you don't wanna share the good. And that, that's hard.

   22. AGAdam Grant3:03

       That is hard. I'm sorry to hear it. So I think there are two layers to this. One is, hey, for most people, particularly men, it becomes harder to make friends as we move from childhood to adulthood. And a lot of that is just about no longer being part of a big cohort of shared experiences.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher3:19

       Hmm.

   24. AGAdam Grant3:19

       So you go through school with classmates, you sit through the same classes, you're on the same teams and the same clubs, and there's just a foundation of [laughs] like events that are gonna happen that, that bring you closer together.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher3:30

       Yeah.

   26. AGAdam Grant3:30

       And then as you get older, your cohort gets, it gets smaller and smaller, right? For you, it was probably much bigger at UT for college-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher3:36

       Mm-hmm

   28. AGAdam Grant3:37

       ... than it was in law school.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher3:38

       Right.

   30. AGAdam Grant3:38

       And then you start your career, and the cohort is even smaller, and now you're kind of doing a, like an N equals one thing.
3. 6:25 – 10:39

   Defining friend vs acquaintance—and a tendency to rush into depth

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:25

      Do you... Is there, um, I'm curious, is there a definition for you of, like, what's an acquaintance and who is a... Let me ask it differently. Is there a definition for you of who is an acquaintance versus who is a friend?

   2. AGAdam Grant6:38

      For me, a friend is somebody that it doesn't matter how much time has passed.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:41

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AGAdam Grant6:42

      We can pick up right where we left off.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher6:43

      Okay.

   6. AGAdam Grant6:44

      Could be months, could be years. Nobody puts, we don't put pressure on each other.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:48

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AGAdam Grant6:49

      To, like, "But I haven't heard from you in a whole week. Where are you?"

   9. JFJefferson Fisher6:52

      Yeah.

   10. AGAdam Grant6:52

       It's like, no, we, we know that this, this bond is solid, and we're there for each other if we need each other.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher6:57

       Yeah. I had this thing, um, uh, at least that I've kept in my head for a while that I try to apply, is, like, if I can't go deep with you in conversation, we can be friendly, but we cannot be friends. Of, uh, if I can't really say the hard stuff of what's really happening outside of the, you know, uh, you're picking up kids from school and you see another dad, and all the other dads are in quarter zips and-

   12. AGAdam Grant7:23

       [laughs]

   13. JFJefferson Fisher7:23

       ... you know, and they're, you know, "Well, how's it going?" "Oh, yeah," and all you talk about is kids or the weather, and then life goes on. And I know that's the same way for Sierra, and it's like, if I can't tell you what's really happening, we can be... I'll be friendly to you, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're gonna be friends.

   14. AGAdam Grant7:42

       I'm really glad I didn't wear a quarter zip today.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher7:43

       Yeah, [laughs] exactly. I wouldn't-

   16. AGAdam Grant7:45

       It would, it would've been disqualifying immediately.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher7:46

       [laughs] Right. Exactly.

   18. AGAdam Grant7:48

       So that's interesting. So tell me if this is accurate.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher7:51

       Uh-huh.

   20. AGAdam Grant7:51

       It sounds to me like in, at least in my worldview, you've got, like you go really quickly to wanting to see if somebody could be a real companion.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher8:00

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AGAdam Grant8:00

       And you're less oriented toward allies and pals.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher8:04

       Ooh, yeah. Um, I think I've changed in the last two years in particular, and through this whole experience, I've changed because, uh, it once thought was, if I know your name and w- we can smile when we see each other, then hey, we're, we're, we're pals.

   24. AGAdam Grant8:23

       Got it.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher8:23

       We're good, you know? And I feel like now I'll still have that, but I may not consider you one of my, like, my top five or my three of, like... Not like the MySpace top five, but, like, the-

   26. AGAdam Grant8:36

       [laughs]

   27. JFJefferson Fisher8:37

       You know, if something is really happening in my life, then, then I want to, or make sure I'm, I'm good with you. You know? How, how can I, I check that. You have this thing in your book. Uh, your book is Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World, which is, uh, I really liked it.

   28. AGAdam Grant8:54

       Uh-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher8:54

       One thing I love about your writing is that it keeps it fresh like every other... One, you have the sections out, laid out really well, but then I feel like you hit just enough, like deep enough on each little topic that makes you feel like, like you're not droning on one area. It's like you're a professor who's done this for a long time.

   30. AGAdam Grant9:12

       [laughs]
4. 10:39 – 13:16

   A three-part framework: allies, pals, and companions

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:39

      And, uh, now I feel like that's such a big, uh, big difference in, in, uh, our life. Are there different types of friendships that we need to... Let me ask it differently. Should we consider everybody as either your acquaintance or a friendship, or is it really more nuanced than that?

   2. AGAdam Grant10:57

      Well, let's break down pals, allies, and companions.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher10:59

      Yeah, let's do that.

   4. AGAdam Grant11:00

      I, I think, I think a lot of people run into trouble because they mistake one for another. I found these are the three important roles that people can play in your life, and they're, they're not all the same.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher11:10

      Yeah.

   6. AGAdam Grant11:10

      So allies are people that you basically are pursuing goals with. Um, so a great ally is a reliable collaborator. It's somebody who has complementary skills to yours.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher11:21

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AGAdam Grant11:21

      You would love to start a company together or volunteer together or basically say, "Yeah, I wanna be on a team with you."

   9. JFJefferson Fisher11:28

      Right.

   10. AGAdam Grant11:29

       Pals are people you have fun with.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher11:31

       Yeah.

   12. AGAdam Grant11:31

       These are the people who share your interests and hobbies.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher11:33

       Yeah.

   14. AGAdam Grant11:33

       Uh, you might play pickleball with them, go to karaoke with them, might, might even invite them on vacation-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher11:38

       Yeah

   16. AGAdam Grant11:38

       ... 'cause you think it would just be a blast to, to do whatever they decide would be exciting to do together.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher11:44

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AGAdam Grant11:44

       And then companions are the people who you confide in. These are the people that you go deep with.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher11:50

       Okay.

   20. AGAdam Grant11:50

       These are the people that you'd seek emotional support from, that you might celebrate your big wins, but also would console you if you had a major loss.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher11:58

       Right.

   22. AGAdam Grant11:59

       And I think that, like kids actually learn about these early on. They don't necessarily have the language for them. But [laughs] you make allies when you do a group project together.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher12:08

       Hmm.

   24. AGAdam Grant12:08

       You make pals at recess together. You find companions when you confess that you have a crush on a classmate to somebody-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher12:15

       Yeah

   26. AGAdam Grant12:15

       ... right?

   27. JFJefferson Fisher12:15

       Right.

   28. AGAdam Grant12:16

       And I think, to your point, the bar has just gone higher and higher for, okay, wait, but I really have to put myself out there if I want an ally and, and actually propose that we commit to something together-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher12:26

       Hmm

   30. AGAdam Grant12:26

       ... as opposed to the group project in school, which was over in a week.
5. 13:16 – 17:17

   Don’t make one person your everything—and handle mismatched expectations

   1. JFJefferson Fisher13:16

      Do you recommend of, like, how many people should be in what category? Like, would, would it be a bad sign if everybody was a companion kind of thing?

   2. AGAdam Grant13:25

      I don't know if it would be a bad sign. It might be exhausting.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher13:28

      Mm.

   4. AGAdam Grant13:28

      'Cause companion, companion relationships tend to be a little bit more emotionally taxing. Uh, you, you know, sometimes you're taking on the other person's burden-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher13:38

      Yeah

   6. AGAdam Grant13:38

      ... as your own. And so I wouldn't want all your relationships to be companions. And in fact, uh, there's, there's now a growing body of research showing that if you go to different friends for different things, some as allies, others as pals, others as companions, you actually are happier on average than if you put all your eggs in one basket.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher13:56

      In one friend.

   8. AGAdam Grant13:57

      Yeah, exactly, 'cause then you are putting a lot of pressure on that friend to be everything to you all the time.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher14:02

      What's the downfall of if you make one friend everything to you?

   10. AGAdam Grant14:06

       Well, one, they may not be there when you need them. [laughs]

   11. JFJefferson Fisher14:09

       Yeah.

   12. AGAdam Grant14:09

       Because you just need too much from them.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher14:10

       Yeah, y- uh, too idealistic.

   14. AGAdam Grant14:12

       Yeah, or they move, and then you lost your best friend.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher14:15

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AGAdam Grant14:15

       And then, well, what do, what do I do now?

   17. JFJefferson Fisher14:17

       Yeah.

   18. AGAdam Grant14:17

       Um, I think the other thing is, though, that sometimes it's, it's really hard to know what you want from each other. So psychologists find over and over again that a recipe for disappointment and even betrayal in a relationship is I think we're allies, pals, and companions, but you think we're only one or two. And then all of a sudden... This, this happened to me not too long ago. We had some, uh, some difficult health news in my family.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher14:41

       Mm.

   20. AGAdam Grant14:42

       And I shared it with somebody that I thought I was pretty close with, and his response was, "Oh, I'm really sorry. That sucks." And then he never mentioned it again. And-

   21. JFJefferson Fisher14:51

       Yeah

   22. AGAdam Grant14:51

       ... I, at first I felt like immediate unfriend. [laughs]

   23. JFJefferson Fisher14:54

       Right. Yeah.

   24. AGAdam Grant14:55

       You, you are not friendship material.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher14:56

       Right.

   26. AGAdam Grant14:56

       I'm gonna ghost you.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher14:57

       Right.

   28. AGAdam Grant14:58

       And now with the benefit of hindsight and, you know, having done all this research on the different kinds of connections we can have, I realize he was not good companion material for me. But it turns out he's a great pal. We have a blast playing tennis together. He's also been a really good ally. We've hosted a few events together, and he's extremely dependable.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher15:16

       Mm.

   30. AGAdam Grant15:16

       And I, like, I didn't have to ghost him. I didn't have to cut him out of my life.
6. 17:17 – 19:09

   The “next level” myth: great interactions don’t require ongoing bonds

   1. JFJefferson Fisher17:17

      You know what I don't like is when... It's usually some kind of school event or maybe some kind of, uh, public g- like, I don't know. You could call it a gala reception conference or something, and you're talking to somebody and they go, "Oh yeah, we should totally get the kids together, and we should totally-"

   2. AGAdam Grant17:36

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher17:36

      "... Oh yeah, let's, we should definitely do this." And you know there's no int- like, that's not gonna happen. They just say that knowing that you're probably never gonna see each other [laughs] again or never get together for, for that thing. Um-

   4. AGAdam Grant17:51

      It feels disingenuous.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher17:52

      It feels so disingenuous.

   6. AGAdam Grant17:54

      Yeah.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher17:54

      And I'd rather you just say, "Hey man, it was so good to see you."

   8. AGAdam Grant17:56

      Yeah.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher17:57

      "Uh, hope, uh, have a great rest of the night." You know, I would rather that.

   10. AGAdam Grant18:00

       Well, I think people, they believe that it's, one, it's polite. [laughs]

   11. JFJefferson Fisher18:03

       Yeah.

   12. AGAdam Grant18:03

       And they would be violating some kind of norm of decency if they didn't offer.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher18:07

       Yeah.

   14. AGAdam Grant18:07

       But two, they think that there needs to be a natural ladder of connection that they climb up.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher18:12

       Mm.

   16. AGAdam Grant18:12

       Most people believe this, right? We, we think, "Okay, I met somebody. I had a pleasant conversation. Now how do we take this to the next level?" There doesn't need to be a next level.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher18:21

       [laughs]

   18. AGAdam Grant18:21

       A great interaction does not mean-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher18:23

       Yeah

   20. AGAdam Grant18:23

       ... you need to have an ongoing relationship.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher18:26

       Right.

   22. AGAdam Grant18:26

       And some of those people, I think what's awkward about it is they're more than acquaintances now, because you're gonna see them again. If they're-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher18:33

       Mm

   24. AGAdam Grant18:33

       ... you're h- h- like, if they, if they have kids at the same school that you do, or if their kids play the same sport you do, right? You're gonna run into them repeatedly.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher18:41

       Yeah.

   26. AGAdam Grant18:42

       They think, "Well, that means we need to be allies, pals, or companions." I would say no, some of those people can just be associates.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher18:48

       Yeah.

   28. AGAdam Grant18:49

       That's okay if it's a transactional relationship.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher18:51

       Right.

   30. AGAdam Grant18:51

       You can enjoy each other's company. You can have pal-like interactions. You can feel like allies if you're, like if, if your kids are teammates and you're rooting for the team together.
7. 19:09 – 21:06

   Better questions for better bonds: stop asking ‘What do you do?’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher19:09

      If you wanna go kinda to the next level of a friendship of, you know, this is... I, I think I want to, uh, see them or talk more often or be better buddies, pals, whatever, is it on you or should you wait for them?

   2. AGAdam Grant19:21

      I think it, it depends on how much courage you have, right?

   3. JFJefferson Fisher19:24

      Yeah.

   4. AGAdam Grant19:25

      What I, what I like a lot is to recognize that the kinds of questions we ask people are gonna look different depending on what kind of bond we're trying to form.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher19:32

      Hmm.

   6. AGAdam Grant19:32

      So if you wanna make an ally, one of the first things you could do is ask them, "What's one of the biggest goals you're trying to achieve this year?" Or, "What's a problem you're trying to solve right now?" And then you'll immediately gain an understanding of what they're trying to accomplish, and you can look for ways to help them, and that's, that's a step toward allyship, right?

   7. JFJefferson Fisher19:49

      Mm.

   8. AGAdam Grant19:49

      We don't have to commit to doing something together. Um, I'm now trying to, to help you get where you're trying to go, and that's a little bit of a test of-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher19:57

      Yeah

   10. AGAdam Grant19:57

       ... are we compatible as allies? If you're trying to make a pal, like the first thing most people do when they meet a stranger is they ask, "What do you do?" What an alienating question.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher20:06

       [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What do you do?

   12. AGAdam Grant20:07

       Do you wanna talk about work outside of work?

   13. JFJefferson Fisher20:09

       Right.

   14. AGAdam Grant20:09

       You better love your job.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher20:10

       Yeah.

   16. AGAdam Grant20:11

       No. Instead of what do you do, try asking people, "What do you love to do?"

   17. JFJefferson Fisher20:14

       Hmm.

   18. AGAdam Grant20:15

       And watch them light up. They'll tell you about their passions.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher20:18

       Yeah.

   20. AGAdam Grant20:18

       You might hear about their favorite movie or book or, um, or a musician.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher20:22

       Right.

   22. AGAdam Grant20:22

       And then you've got an immediate opportunity to find common ground.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher20:25

       Yeah.

   24. AGAdam Grant20:26

       And then if you wanna become companions with someone, I think it's much easier to, to actually make yourself vulnerable than to impose on them. And so you might... [laughs] The, the research on this shows that if you tell somebody a mildly embarrassing story-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher20:38

       Mm-hmm

   26. AGAdam Grant20:39

       ... uh, they feel trusted, and then they tend to reciprocate with one of their own.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher20:43

       Oh, okay.

   28. AGAdam Grant20:44

       So that, that tends to work pretty well. I think another thing that, that people really naturally become companions around is favorite childhood memories or what was a, what was a family tradition that you loved.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher20:54

       Yeah.

   30. AGAdam Grant20:54

       Uh, you end up getting pretty real when you do that, and comparing notes on traditions, you think, "Oh, wow, like I'm, I'm now getting a window into your values, and I can see whether you're somebody that I, I might wanna have a deeper interaction with."

8. 21:06 – 25:13

   Frequency vs depth: ‘burstiness,’ space, and why constant contact can backfire

   1. JFJefferson Fisher21:06

      Do you have to see, do you have to see a friend all the time for there to be a close friendship?

   2. AGAdam Grant21:15

      No.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher21:15

      Yeah.

   4. AGAdam Grant21:16

      No. We should kill... I think it's time to kill the myth that the frequency of interaction is what tells us how strong a connection is.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher21:24

      Hmm.

   6. AGAdam Grant21:24

      Like closeness is not about how often we see each other, talk to each other, or text each other. It's not about the frequency of interaction. It's about the depth of connection.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher21:34

      Hmm.

   8. AGAdam Grant21:34

      Those are two different things.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher21:36

      You talk, uh, in your book, The Vibe, on the burstiness of, of friendship. What is burstiness?

   10. AGAdam Grant21:42

       I-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher21:42

       Which I, I love, I love that word

   12. AGAdam Grant21:44

       ... it's such a great image. So burstiness is a term that Anita Woolley and her colleagues coined, and it's... What it captures is that feeling that we, we have when we're in a... Well, actually, let me, let me back up a step and say-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher21:57

       Yeah

   14. AGAdam Grant21:57

       ... you will know burstiness as the feeling of energy and connection you have when you're on a great first date or when you're in a, an electric brainstorming session, and it just literally feels like the interaction is bursting with energy and ideas.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher22:11

       Yeah.

   16. AGAdam Grant22:11

       So [laughs] what better term than burstiness for it?

   17. JFJefferson Fisher22:13

       Right.

   18. AGAdam Grant22:14

       What I think people overlook is when you study how bursty people's interactions are, burstiness does not happen in continuous streams. It happens in sporadic interaction.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher22:25

       Hmm.

   20. AGAdam Grant22:25

       So the burstiest software teams, for example, and sales teams, um, they're not in contact every single hour.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher22:31

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AGAdam Grant22:32

       They will have a great meeting or a great exchange, and then they might go several days or weeks without communicating at all. Because what's happening is they're going off and they're learning new things, they're solving problems, they're getting focused on deep work. And then when they come back needing their teammate's help or when they have an idea, they're, they're recharged and they're ready to go, and they're focusing their shared attention in one direction. And this is not limited to work teams. Friendship, um, I think friendship works the same way, right? I think that there's actually such a thing as catching up too often. It becomes mundane.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher23:05

       Catching up too often?

   24. AGAdam Grant23:07

       Yeah.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher23:07

       Yeah.

   26. AGAdam Grant23:07

       I mean, do-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher23:08

       Yeah

   28. AGAdam Grant23:08

       ... think about the people you see every day.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher23:10

       Right.

   30. AGAdam Grant23:10

       Like, well, what, what are your highlights of yesterday? Well, since I last saw you, I walked the dog-
9. 25:13 – 29:24

   Long-distance closeness, weekly rituals, and a detour into gratitude vs contribution lists

   1. JFJefferson Fisher25:13

      I'm with you. So when... And is that... Let me ask this question. Is that just frequency, or is it also, like, location? If you live, like, is there hope for long distance relationships?

   2. AGAdam Grant25:25

      Yeah. There have been multiple studies of long distance relationships showing that on average, people in long distance relationships tend to feel a little bit closer emotionally-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher25:34

      Really?

   4. AGAdam Grant25:34

      ... than people who live together.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher25:36

      No way.

   6. AGAdam Grant25:37

      And there's a little bit of selection bias there.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher25:38

      Okay.

   8. AGAdam Grant25:38

      Right? Because if your, if your relationship is on thin ice, you're probably not gonna, it's not gonna last long distance.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher25:43

      And you're not gonna do a survey on it. Yeah. [laughs]

   10. AGAdam Grant25:44

       No. You definitely wouldn't fill it out.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher25:46

       Yeah.

   12. AGAdam Grant25:47

       Uh, but you know, what happens is when people are, are living apart, they do miss each other more, and they also feel like our time together is precious. And so they tend to have deeper conversations.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher25:58

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AGAdam Grant25:58

       They tend to actually exchange, they tend to show more emotional intimacy, uh, because it feels a little bit fragile, and they wanna make the most of their time together. Now-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher26:08

       Mm

   16. AGAdam Grant26:08

       ... this is not to say, like, if you live together, you should, like, you should just go a week without seeing each other.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher26:14

       See you.

   18. AGAdam Grant26:14

       Yeah. [laughs]

   19. JFJefferson Fisher26:14

       Yeah.

   20. AGAdam Grant26:15

       Then you're on a path to having a decreasingly significant other.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher26:17

       Right, right, right.

   22. AGAdam Grant26:18

       But I think there, there is something to be said for time and space to maintain healthy relationships, and I think this is just, this is part of the fundamental wiring of human psychology. Uh, there, there are actually some great experiments that, that speak to this in a slightly different way, which is, so Jefferson, you were talking about going from, like, you and Sierra have a check-in every day-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher26:37

       Yeah

   24. AGAdam Grant26:37

       ... to every few days. Now it's every week.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher26:38

       Right.

   26. AGAdam Grant26:39

       Um, something very similar holds for gratitude lists.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher26:42

       Hmm.

   28. AGAdam Grant26:43

       There, there have been experiments now showing that if people are randomly assigned to write down the things they're grateful for every day, they get less of a happiness boost than if they just do the gratitude exercise once a week.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher26:55

       Oh, okay.

   30. AGAdam Grant26:56

       It's a similar dynamic. You do the daily gratitude, and you're, you're kinda, you're grasping at straws. You're like, "All right. I'm grateful for my socks."
10. 29:24 – 35:45

    How to ‘vibe’: match the bond, add emotional intensity, and skip small talk

    1. JFJefferson Fisher29:24

       Let's go. Let's do it. Let's do it. Ab- absolutely. What, uh, does the science say in your research that makes people click or not click, when you vibe, so to speak?

    2. AGAdam Grant29:37

       Well, I think that a big part of vibing is being on the same wavelength, and so you and I have the same idea about what kind of connection we have or what kind of bond we're trying to form. And so if I'm trying to be your ally and you wanna be my pal, we're gonna be like ships passing in the night.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher29:51

       Right.

    4. AGAdam Grant29:52

       And I think a big part of being able to vibe with other people is we get on the same wavelength, and then we need to be in situations with emotional intensity. Uh-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher30:01

       Tell me more about that.

    6. AGAdam Grant30:02

       So a lot of people get together and they're like, "Okay, we wanna get to know each other better. Let's sit down for lunch or dinner." And that is not a high energy experience for most people to have.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher30:11

       Hmm.

    8. AGAdam Grant30:11

       What we should be doing instead is something a little more active, something that makes us a little bit more vulnerable, but also gets our hearts racing together in unison. So in the research on this, it might be we go for a workout together. Uh-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher30:24

       Oh, cool

    10. AGAdam Grant30:24

        ... like, I wanna get to know you. Let's go for a run.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher30:26

        Yeah, yeah. Right, right.

    12. AGAdam Grant30:26

        Or let's go to the gym and lift. And what's great about that is if we don't hit it off, at least we still got a workout in.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher30:32

        [laughs] Yeah. Okay.

    14. AGAdam Grant30:33

        It's very efficient, right?

    15. JFJefferson Fisher30:34

        Right, right.

    16. AGAdam Grant30:34

        Uh, we might wanna go to a haunted house together. There's a, a hilarious experiment where, where people are just getting to know each other and they go to a haunted house, and afterward they feel closer, as long as they debrief the experience because they're comparing notes on the jump scares. They're like, "Yeah."

    17. JFJefferson Fisher30:49

        Yeah.

    18. AGAdam Grant30:49

        "You know what?"

    19. JFJefferson Fisher30:50

        Right.

    20. AGAdam Grant30:50

        "I really felt that."

    21. JFJefferson Fisher30:51

        [laughs]

    22. AGAdam Grant30:51

        And now we feel like we have shared a unique experience together.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher30:54

        For anybody who says, "Let's go to a haunted house," that's how I know they're not going to be my friend.

    24. AGAdam Grant30:59

        You're out.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher30:59

        [laughs] Yeah.

    26. AGAdam Grant31:00

        Done.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher31:01

        If they recommend a haunted house to me, I'm like, "Well, it's great to meet you." [laughs]

    28. AGAdam Grant31:04

        [laughs] You will ne- you will not be going back.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher31:06

        Yeah, yeah. So is it, uh, what I hear you saying is- Well, let me, uh, I wanna get some context to it. So there was somebody who connected me with somebody else. He was like, "Oh, hey, you need to meet this guy." Uh, immediately put us in a group chat. I go and have... He's, he's, uh, he and I text. He's like, "Let's do lunch." We do lunch, and we haven't talked since.

    30. AGAdam Grant31:26

        [laughs]
11. 35:45 – 42:16

    Playful pal-bonding: hot dog debates, niche interests, and better icebreakers

    1. AGAdam Grant35:45

       My favorite question is, do you think a hot dog is a sandwich?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher35:49

       Ooh, that's a good one.

    3. AGAdam Grant35:50

       I mean, people, people have strong views on this. Where do you stand on it?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher35:52

       I'm... No, it's not. A hot dog is its own category.

    5. AGAdam Grant35:56

       Why? Is it, is it the wrong shape, or is it the fact that the, the bun is still attached?

    6. JFJefferson Fisher36:00

       Uh, to me, it's just, I'm just gonna put respect on its name. I just... It's a, it's a hot dog.

    7. AGAdam Grant36:04

       Oh.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher36:04

       It's not a, it's not a hamburger or a sandwich.

    9. AGAdam Grant36:07

       [laughs]

    10. JFJefferson Fisher36:07

        I don't know.

    11. AGAdam Grant36:07

        Wait, you think a hamburger is a sandwich?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher36:09

        Uh, no, I don't think it is. To me, a sandwich is two slices of bread that are separate that has some kinda something in between.

    13. AGAdam Grant36:18

        [laughs] Okay, wait, so-

    14. JFJefferson Fisher36:19

        Whereas a bun, it's not a bun, it's, you know.

    15. AGAdam Grant36:22

        Okay, so let me, let me, let me, let me take that one step further. So if I, if I cut off the connector in the hot dog, and now the, the, the top and bottom bun are separate-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher36:32

        Yeah

    17. AGAdam Grant36:32

        ... does it meet your sandwich definition?

    18. JFJefferson Fisher36:33

        What's a hoagie? Do we know what a hoagie is? I know that-

    19. AGAdam Grant36:37

        I think it's a kind of sandwich.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher36:39

        Right. But now, now it's a-

    21. AGAdam Grant36:40

        But in a different sphere

    22. JFJefferson Fisher36:41

        ... it's sort of a sub, right?

    23. AGAdam Grant36:42

        And what's a sub?

    24. JFJefferson Fisher36:43

        You know, I think like, uh-

    25. AGAdam Grant36:45

        I don't know

    26. JFJefferson Fisher36:45

        ... I don't know either.

    27. AGAdam Grant36:46

        [laughs]

    28. JFJefferson Fisher36:46

        But I do know that you have a, a sub or, I love, I'm a fan of Jersey Mike's, you know, and they have, I don't know, a hoagie sub, cheese steak. I don't know. You're from Philly.

    29. AGAdam Grant36:59

        Those are subcategories of sandwich.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher37:00

        There we go. Are you a cheese steak fan, by the way?
12. 42:16 – 51:58

    Friction is underrated: conflict strengthens relationships when framed with care

    1. JFJefferson Fisher42:16

       It is. Um, friendships. Do you need... Let me ask this. How important is friction? I just hit my mic, so I'm gonna do it again. [laughs] I'm not gonna do that again. How important is friction in friendships?

    2. AGAdam Grant42:34

       Friction is underrated in friendships.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher42:35

       Underrated.

    4. AGAdam Grant42:35

       Most people avoid it. Yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher42:37

       Okay.

    6. AGAdam Grant42:38

       I mean, this is, uh, this is how I, I think I first discovered your work actually, is-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher42:41

       Oh, cool

    8. AGAdam Grant42:41

       ... my wife sent me a reel you did on Instagram about how to have a difficult conversation with somebody.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher42:46

       Oh, cool.

    10. AGAdam Grant42:47

        And she said, "This guy is brilliant."

    11. JFJefferson Fisher42:49

        That's cool.

    12. AGAdam Grant42:50

        "And he talks about, like, he, he has figured out through experience what takes you years to learn through research."

    13. JFJefferson Fisher42:56

        [laughs] Amazing.

    14. AGAdam Grant42:57

        And I was like, "Wait, wait. What are you saying here?"

    15. JFJefferson Fisher42:59

        Yeah.

    16. AGAdam Grant43:00

        But, um, but I think that it's so interesting. Most people see conflict as harmful to relationships.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher43:06

        Mm.

    18. AGAdam Grant43:07

        They think that if we fight, it's going to damage our connection.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher43:11

        Right.

    20. AGAdam Grant43:11

        And so we're gonna walk on eggshells. We're gonna keep the peace. We're gonna avoid doing anything that might, might even involve some disagreement.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher43:19

        Yeah.

    22. AGAdam Grant43:20

        And that is a huge mistake because a relationship in which you can't have any friction stops being a relationship. It's a charade.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher43:28

        Oh, that's true. I feel like in every area of our life, but just as a general statement, like, your life has to have resistance. Like, you need resistance to, uh, to work out the, the way you handle things, and friendships is one of those that you have to have resistance.

    24. AGAdam Grant43:46

        Friendships, romantic relationships, collaborations at work too, if you never disagree with someone, best case scenario is you're stuck in group think.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher43:55

        Hmm.

    26. AGAdam Grant43:56

        You're in such a deep filter bubble or echo chamber that you're not even thinking for yourself anymore.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher44:00

        Yeah.

    28. AGAdam Grant44:00

        And I think, you know, people, people talk a lot about wanting to have chemistry, and they forget that, [laughs] like... Well, actually, a better metaphor probably is harmony. Like, people, people think, "I wanna have harmony with others, and that means we're gonna get along all the time." No. Harmony is not you and me playing the exact same note on the exact same instrument. It is the pleasing arrangement of different tunes, different sounds.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher44:25

        Right.

    30. AGAdam Grant44:26

        And it's not easy to have friction and keep it pleasing, right? [laughs]
13. 51:58 – 1:02:44

    Turning disagreement into resilience: ‘tensility,’ modeling conflict for kids, and conflict rituals

    1. JFJefferson Fisher51:58

       I get to be with. What, what, i- is there a science behind that feeling of we've done something hard together?

    2. AGAdam Grant52:06

       Yeah. I think Jane Dutton has called it the... She uses... Well, she has a couple terms for it, but Jane Dutton talks about the tensility of a relationship.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher52:16

       Tensility? Okay.

    4. AGAdam Grant52:17

       Tensility.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher52:18

       Okay.

    6. AGAdam Grant52:18

       Uh, I, I think resilience might be an easier-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher52:20

       Right

    8. AGAdam Grant52:20

       ... way to capture it.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher52:21

       Like a pencil, yeah.

    10. AGAdam Grant52:22

        Yeah. That, like, when a relationship has been stretched, and you've seen people under stress, when you have gone through a challenge together and overcome it, you believe in your carrying capacity to face other hard things and become closer through them.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher52:38

        Hmm.

    12. AGAdam Grant52:39

        And, you know, a lot of people don't do this. Like, they, they think they're gonna pick their battles, and they think they need to pick their battles, and so they avoid little conflicts until they blow up as big conflicts, and then those are, those are just disastrous to the relationship. They never practice having little disagreements. They never have the hot d- is the hot dog a sandwich fight?

    13. JFJefferson Fisher53:00

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. AGAdam Grant53:00

        Which is actually a great rehearsal for, how do we disagree but still enjoy each other's company as pals?

    15. JFJefferson Fisher53:06

        Yeah, yeah.

    16. AGAdam Grant53:07

        And how do we make sure we're still allies at the end of the day? Because we want to align on what our definition is.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher53:12

        Hmm.

    18. AGAdam Grant53:13

        And I think, I think that, like, we are, in some ways, we're a conflict il- illiterate society. We are... [clears throat] Like, I was... I, I mean, I grew up believing that, like, the more, the more your parents fight, the more likely they are to get divorced. That's empirically false.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher53:31

        Really?

    20. AGAdam Grant53:31

        Yeah. It's just not true.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher53:32

        Yeah.

    22. AGAdam Grant53:32

        If you wanna predict the longevity of a marriage, it is not how often people argue, it's how constructively they argue that matters. And in fact, having frequent friendly disagreements is actually a recipe not only for a healthy marriage, but also for raising creative kids-

    23. JFJefferson Fisher53:49

        Yeah

    24. AGAdam Grant53:49

        ... it turns out. Uh, psychologists have studied what they call wobble, uh, which is when a, a family is, is kind of, like, seeming like it's teetering on, on an edge because people, like, you know, you sit down at dinner, and there's a big debate-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher54:03

        Mm-hmm

    26. AGAdam Grant54:03

        ... about the news of the day. But what's happening is kids are learning to think for themselves, and they can't just assume that their parents always agree because their parents don't have all their fights behind closed doors. Their, their parents... Sorry. Yeah. Like, a lot of parents say, "We're gonna fight behind closed doors because we don't wanna stress the kids out." Guess what? You are teaching your kids then that arguing is bad for relationships. What parents should be doing is having constructive disagreements in front of their children and role modeling how to, how to say, "Look-

    27. JFJefferson Fisher54:35

        Yeah

    28. AGAdam Grant54:35

        ... like, we are two different human beings."

    29. JFJefferson Fisher54:36

        Right.

    30. AGAdam Grant54:36

        "We are not on the same page all the time, and that is okay."
14. 1:02:44 – 1:06:47

    Motivational interviewing at home: acknowledging emotions and letting others persuade themselves

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:02:44

       Um, and let's do this in a way that is, is going to smooth things and not escalate things. You know, one thing that's, uh, helped me with... So my kids, if they are complaining [laughs] or, uh, if my daughter's upset and, or like she's mad about something and she's pouting, of course, she does the, like one of these, and I'll be like, "Hey, can you, can you pout just a little bit more for me?"

    2. AGAdam Grant1:03:15

       [laughs]

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:03:16

       That's what I'll say every time, and it always gets a laugh. Or-

    4. AGAdam Grant1:03:20

       That's hilarious

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:03:20

       ... or my son, he'll, you know, he's disappointed about something. I'm, I'm like, "Hey, I need you to be more disappointed. Can you look more disappointed, please?" And always it turns into a smile if I ask for more of how they're behaving. "Can you be uglier to me, please?"

    6. AGAdam Grant1:03:35

       [laughs]

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:03:36

       And they, and every time it kinda shakes them out of it.

    8. AGAdam Grant1:03:39

       That is so clever. That is the best application I've ever seen of what psychologists call emotional acknowledgement.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:03:44

       Oh, tell me.

    10. AGAdam Grant1:03:45

        Well, normally when you, especially with your kids, but with anybody that you're in a relationship with, if you like them, if you care about them, and you see them show an unpleasant emotion, the first thing you wanna do is fix it or change it.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:03:57

        Yeah.

    12. AGAdam Grant1:03:57

        But that usually, [laughs] that's an immediate way to, to piss them off-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:02

        Right

    14. AGAdam Grant1:04:02

        ... or to, yeah, to invite a lot of resistance.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:05

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AGAdam Grant1:04:05

        And so emotional acknowledgement tends to work better. It's where I say, "Hey, Jefferson, um, you look a, a little bit frustrated right now."

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:12

        Mm.

    18. AGAdam Grant1:04:12

        "Tell me more."

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:13

        Okay.

    20. AGAdam Grant1:04:13

        Or like, "I noticed, [laughs] like I noticed a scowl."

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:16

        Yeah, affirming those feelings.

    22. AGAdam Grant1:04:17

        Yeah, exactly.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:18

        Yeah.

    24. AGAdam Grant1:04:18

        And, and validating that-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:19

        Yeah

    26. AGAdam Grant1:04:19

        ... which says, "Look, you know, it's okay to feel and even express those emotions. Now, let's talk about a more constructive way to deal with them."

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:28

        Yeah.

    28. AGAdam Grant1:04:28

        But you're, you're acknowledging the emotion at the same time that you're neutralizing it.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:32

        Right.

    30. AGAdam Grant1:04:33

        That's very clever.
15. 1:06:47 – 1:17:10

    Work relationships: don’t force friendship—build allyship, mission, and real values

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:47

       I wanna, um, switch gears for a little bit and talk about work and vibe. Make sure... Yeah, we're good on time. Should you, should you make friends at work?

    2. AGAdam Grant1:07:02

       Should you make friends at work? It depends.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:07

       Yeah.

    4. AGAdam Grant1:07:07

       Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna answer this like any self-respecting social scientist would answer any question.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:11

       [laughs]

    6. AGAdam Grant1:07:12

       The answer is it depends.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:13

       Yeah, like any, any attorney.

    8. AGAdam Grant1:07:14

       Yeah. Uh, I think I would say that leaders shouldn't pressure people to be friends at work. I think this is a, a mistake that a lot of bosses make. They say like, "We're all friends here," or, "This company is a family." No, a company is not a family.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:31

       Right.

    10. AGAdam Grant1:07:31

        You would not furlough your kids. You wouldn't fire your kids. When you call a workplace a family or when you say we're all gonna be friends, it creates an unrealistic expectation of unconditional love.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:46

        Mm.

    12. AGAdam Grant1:07:46

        It's not sustainable, right? A workplace-- I, I think I know what, what managers are trying to do when they deliver that message. They are trying to convey that we're gonna respect each other and care about each other. We are going to be a community.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:58

        Yeah.

    14. AGAdam Grant1:07:58

        You're gonna belong here. But the family and friend metaphors are the wrong ones because with family and with friendships, the relationship is the only priority.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:07

        Ah, so we're not family, we're a community, and you, and you are welcome here.

    16. AGAdam Grant1:08:11

        Yes, and we're a community that cares deeply about strong relationships. We also care deeply about great results. And if you are building relationships but not getting results, you're not gonna be welcome to stay in this community, right? That's-- We have performance standards here.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:27

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AGAdam Grant1:08:27

        And so I think we need to be clear about that, and what that means for me is you do not need to be friends or family. You do not need to be pals or companions at work. You need to be allies first and foremost. That is-- That's the, the basis of the bond-

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:43

        Yeah

    20. AGAdam Grant1:08:43

        ... is you and I are committed to a shared mission, and we've aligned on what are our core values that are necessary to subscribe to in order to advance that mission, which means we know exactly what behaviors are acceptable around here, what values uphold-- Excuse me. We know exactly what behaviors uphold our principles.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:01

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AGAdam Grant1:09:01

        We know exactly what actions would violate those principles. And once we're clear on that, then we can say, "Look, this is a, this is a collaboration where we are trying to bring out the best in each other." And if we like each other enough that we wanna hang out as pals, that's potentially okay. If we are in a situation where we care about each other enough that we wanna build a companion bond outside of work, that's okay too, but it's optional.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:29

        Yeah.

    24. AGAdam Grant1:09:29

        It's not required.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:31

        So there are, um, I know there are people who are managers of people, bosses, supervisors listening and going, "Hey, I want the people that work for me to be friends," bec- That's the mindset they have. I, well, I want everybody to be friendly and, and get along. Should everybody at work get along?

    26. AGAdam Grant1:09:50

        The research on this, I think, is a little surprising. So if you look at the data, this is research on over twelve thousand work teams and also sports teams. What you see is that what's called task cohesion is more important than social cohesion.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:10:04

        Hmm.

    28. AGAdam Grant1:10:05

        So social cohesion is what most people think of when they think about cohesion. That's do we like each other? Do we have-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:10:11

        Going to a happy hour-

    30. AGAdam Grant1:10:12

        Yeah
16. 1:17:10 – 1:34:12

    Low-maintenance friendship, voice-based connection, and reconnecting dormant ties

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:17:10

       Mm. Should, should your friendships be high maintenance or low maintenance?

    2. AGAdam Grant1:17:17

       Depends on the friendship, I, I suppose. Uh, I-

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:17:20

       If you had to pick

    4. AGAdam Grant1:17:21

       ... I... Look, I think we all want more low maintenance friendships.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:17:24

       Yeah.

    6. AGAdam Grant1:17:24

       And I think that we walk around with a lot of guilt, feeling like if we don't spend enough time together, if we don't interact often enough-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:17:34

       Right

    8. AGAdam Grant1:17:34

       ... then we're, we're not being good friends, and we're letting others down, and I just think we need to relax our expectations. It's not always feasible to be the perfect friend to everybody in your life, and in fact, I think great friends are the people who understand that we're just going through a hard thing right now.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:17:52

       Mm.

    10. AGAdam Grant1:17:53

        Or we're really busy with family and work, and it's just a season where we don't have a lot of time for, you know, our pals or our companions, and when the seasons change, we'll be there for each other. I think some of my best, some of my closest friends, I actually have a, a tradition with, uh, with one of my best friends from college, Palmer. He started it. Uh, when we graduated, he said, "Okay, we're, we're going off to live in different states, eventually different countries, and we're just, like, you can't just walk over to each other's place anymore."

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:24

        Right.

    12. AGAdam Grant1:18:24

        "What are we gonna do about that?" [laughs] Like, "We don't live in the same dorm anymore. We don't, we're not roommates anymore."

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:29

        Yeah, yeah.

    14. AGAdam Grant1:18:29

        "How are we gonna manage that?" And he said, "Let's put a once a year or twice a year catch-up on our calendar, and you can reschedule it as many times as you want, but you have to reschedule it. You can't cancel it."

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:41

        Oh. I like that.

    16. AGAdam Grant1:18:41

        "And we're just gonna agree it's always okay to reschedule, but we always have a future interaction that we've committed to." That, I think, has kept us close-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:49

        That's awesome

    18. AGAdam Grant1:18:49

        ... for literally a quarter century. I haven't seen Palmer since before the pandemic.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:54

        Yeah.

    20. AGAdam Grant1:18:55

        And I know I can call him, text him, or even drop in at his house-

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:59

        Right

    22. AGAdam Grant1:18:59

        ... and he'll be happy to see me, and vice versa.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:01

        How important is it that our friends hear our voice rather than just sending the, the short text?

    24. AGAdam Grant1:19:06

        Oh, I love the research on this. So are you familiar with oxytocin?

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:10

        Yes.

    26. AGAdam Grant1:19:11

        Okay, so-

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:11

        Sort of like the caring, you know, portion.

    28. AGAdam Grant1:19:13

        Exactly. So I think neuroscientists call oxytocin the, sometimes it's called the love hormone or the care chemical.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:20

        Yeah.

    30. AGAdam Grant1:19:21

        And it turns out that oxytocin is released when we hear other people's voices-

Episode duration: 1:34:12