Gaslighting: How to Recognize and Respond to Manipulation

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   Why gaslighting feels so destabilizing—and what this episode will teach you

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      It makes you question your thoughts. It makes you question your reality. And the more you get put in this position, the less in control that you feel. In today's episode, it's all about how to respond to a gaslighter. Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm gonna ask you to follow this podcast, and if you would, please like it, give it a star, or leave a review. As always, if you have any topic suggestions,

2. 0:30 – 1:30

   Three go-to responses to common gaslighting lines

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

      then just throw them in the comments. I also wanna let you know that my new book, The Next Conversation, is officially out for pre-order, and the links are in the show notes. The next time that someone tries to gaslight you, here's what I want you to do. Number one, if they say, "I didn't say that," instead of chasing it and saying, "Yes, you did," or, "Then what did I say?" Which allows them to manipulate the narrative. You're going to slowly respond, "That's what I heard. That's what I heard." It doesn't allow them to flip any message, and it keeps you in a position of strength. Number two, if they try to personally attack you and say things like, "You're crazy. Y- you need help," you're going to calmly respond, "I need someone who's helpful. I need someone who's helpful." What you're doing is saying, "You're not the person that I need in this conversation, and you're not being part of the solution, and I'm ... That's where I'm going." Number three, if they say something like, "You're imagining things," you're going to say from a position of strength and assertiveness, "I do not imagine

3. 1:30 – 2:00

   Disclaimer + clarifying what gaslighting is (and isn’t)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:30

      facts." Here's where you can get almost a little bit indignant. "I do not imagine facts." W- what you're saying is, "I know exactly what happened, I know what my facts are, and I'm not coming away from it." And before I continue, I want, I wanna make sure that I give this disclaimer. All right? I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a therapist. If you have legitimate questions about gaslighting, feel free to ask them. I'm gonna tell you what I know it to be and what I've interacted with in my line of work in the legal field. Gaslighting is a term that can be thrown

4. 2:00 – 3:01

   Simple pen-tapping example: how denial escalates into reality-doubt

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:00

      around way too easily, okay? It's ... It seems to be a very easy replacement for somebody who just simply disagrees with you that you don't really like. That's not it, so be careful with that term. Gaslighting is a much more serious issue, and the goal of it is to make you question your reality, to make you question who you are and how you make judgments and decisions about things. In a very simple example, let's say you and I are sitting ac- across from each other and I start tapping my pen, and then I stop, and I start tapping my pen again. You go, "I need you to stop." I go, "What are you, what are you talking about?" "Y- you were tapping your pen." I say, "No, I'm not. No, I wasn't. I've never been tapping my pen," and I tap it a little bit later. A- and again, I, I deny it. I say, "You're, you're just making things up. You're imagining things." Over time, that's a very elementary example, but in a bigger scheme of things, things happen that somebody is seeing and you're noticing, but they deny it, deny that anything happened, and they start to make you feel bad about yourself, that you're wrong in your decision-making, wrong in your memory,

5. 3:01 – 4:02

   Isolation and narrative control: the deeper purpose behind the behavior

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:01

      and then that you're just a person who feels very unsure about who they are and their reality, make you question everything, make you question the veracity, the truthfulness of things. And it's a way to manipulate you to form control. If people ... If I were to say to you, "Everybody thinks you're crazy. I kn- I, I hate to tell you this, but, like, e- e- all your friends, they hate you. Like, nobody likes, nobody likes you," and I do that from a position of, "I'm the only one that can tell you this. I'm the one that really cares about you," when really all I'm doing is isolating you. Gaslighting is meant to question your reality, so anytime you get into an argument where you're, you're thinking, "I know I know this. I know that that's not what happened," but this other person is totally denying it, it's a way of lying, but it's even more serious in that they're forming the lie to twist it to paint a picture of what they want you to see versus what the truth actually reveals. All right? And so that's the difference, and it's, it's one of the most corrosive things I think can happen in an argument. So in

6. 4:02 – 5:03

   Gaslighting in depositions: “Let’s go back” and rewriting the timeline

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:02

      my line of work, I often see people who attempt to gaslight in depositions under cross-examination because it's a very high-stress, high-conflict environment where I'm asking them questions. And often when somebody is caught in a lie or caught in a situation where it's not putting them in the best light, the very, the most cunning, the, the best liars will attempt to gaslight the situation, and this is what it, it sounds like. They will go, "Okay. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's, let- let's go back." That's a key phrase right there. "Let's go back." And they wanna go to the very beginning of the timeline to them, and they wanna go, "Okay, this said this, and he said this, and she said this," and they wanna construct the narrative totally on their own, and it's like they're rewriting history, where I have the facts, I have the records. But yet they are starting to just lie, and you can tell they just drop little lies over time to where at the end result they expect that the only answer I could possibly have is that they're the one

7. 5:03 – 6:03

   The ‘digging holes’ metaphor: how they bait you into doing the work

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:03

      that is the most righteous. They're the one that is the most justified, that everything they've done is rational and reasonable, when really they are just digging a hole and asking me to fill it. This is what I mean. Often gaslighting is, uh, the way I picture it is they dig holes and then kind of trick you, entice you into filling it. So they'll say some kinda lie, and then you get really defensive and go, "That's not what happened. No. Nuh-uh." And they go, "Okay, what happened?" And they're asking you to fill, just pick up a shovel and put the hole back in it. And then they go to another lie, and you go, "No, that's not ... No. What are you talking about?" And you pick up your shovel, and you start filling another hole. So all they do is just go around, um, l- where you're losing control, like a, a cat and a laser pointer, that they're holding the laser pointer all over the wall in the different areas of the room, and you're the cat just chasing it from point to point to point, not seeing that it's all about control It's

8. 6:03 – 7:04

   Core rule: say less, keep control—especially about the past

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:03

      all about control. The more focused you are on constructing your own bridge, the more they're making yours fall apart without you even seeing it. So the key overarching message when it comes to gaslighting behavior is the less you say, the less they can control, the less they can do with it. That's why for them, bringing up the past is really just their playground because they can construct the history of it in a way that puts them in the best spot and you at the most advan- at disadvantage. And so whenever you feel like, "I'm just... I feel like I'm just chasing accuracy over, uh, miscommunication, over inaccuracy and inaccuracy," it's, it's, it's gaslighting, manipulative behavior. And some of the biggest things to watch out for is talking about the past, and I can- I can't tell you enough, when you get in those situations, you need to say less. You have very short sentences because it gives them less to play with. That's why when I give you these

9. 7:04 – 9:05

   Why repetition works: short phrases they can’t “use against you”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:04

      little phrases to, to use, they're not big explanations. They're short. "That's what I heard. That's what I heard. I cannot imagine facts." Little things that once you say them, they can't really do anything with them, and your response when they go, "Ugh," and they get all frustrated is just you repeat them. You say them again, and they really can't do anything, and they'll get frustrated. They'll leave. They'll change the subject. But just understand that's what it is. It's manipulative behavior to have you under their control, and that's something I will not allow. We're now at my favorite part of the podcast, and that's where I get to read a question from a follower. Those that are part of my newsletter are able to ask me questions, and I'm able to answer them. So if you're not part of that newsletter, I highly encourage you to do so and ask me a question. All right, I am honored to say that this segment is sponsored by a company called Cozy Earth, and the reason why I said yes to Cozy Earth as one of the first sponsors of this podcast is because I actually use their stuff. I use their products. Their sheets are on my bed right now. I am a terribly hot sleeper. I just radiate heat, [laughs] I feel like, and their sheets are the coolest that I've found. They, they feel amazing, and I, I highly recommend them. My wife also loves their pajamas, and when they asked to sponsor, she was like, "Yes, absolutely." So I, I love their sweatshirts. They're just a cool company, and I'm, uh, honored to have them sponsor. So if you're looking for something, just loungewear, and you like feeling cozy and warm during this upcoming holiday season, I encourage you to check out Cozy Earth. You can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 40% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 40% off. My name is officially a code, and that's pretty cool. Today's follower question comes from Eric. Eric is in Canada, uh, it looks like Quebec, and he says, "Hey, Jefferson, thank you so much for your content. I have an issue with gaslighting. My partner and I will get into an argument, and I know when she's

10. 9:05 – 11:38

    Listener question (Eric): partner escalates into rage—getting back to safety

    1. JFJefferson Fisher9:05

       gaslighting me. The issue is I run out of things to say. She gets very upset, almost in a rage mode, and I'm not sure what to do. Are there any phrases I can use to get back to safety?" Eric, I'm sorry about that situation, man. That, that's, uh, that's really... That's not fun, and that's, that's very difficult, so I, I, I just hope that you're being safe with everything. Here's what I'm gonna recommend to you. When you say, "I run out of things to say," Eric, that's not the issue. The issue is you need to stick with what you've already said. Stick with what you've already said. Don't try and find new ways to come up with new phrases. Stick with what you've already said because the trick is that the, the partner is probably wanting you to leave what you've said, to go off and, and chase what they're laying out. Don't do that. So here's, here's a phrase that I use all the time, and I know it's gonna work for you. It is, "I understand you disagree with me. I understand you disagree with me." So say you're in a bad argument. She begins to gaslight you, and y- you can easily respond with the phrase, "I understand you disagree with me," period. Don't keep on talking. Don't give more. Don't change the topic. Don't change the subject. If she goes back again to try and question the truth of what you're saying or questioning your reality and you feel like you're trying to lose control in some way, just go back to, "I understand you disagree with me." Or I also like the phrase, "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." She might try to lay out something that is very different and, and fix the narrative to, to fit her needs, and you just go back to, "We remember things differently. We remember things differently," period. You see how I'm not saying to continue talking, to come up with some structure of a sentence, to say you go, want to go one, two, three with how you want to structure a response? That's not it. That's not one of these... That's not this podcast. That's not this episode. What I'm saying is you just need to stick with the phrase you've already given, Eric. So it is, "I understand you disagree with me," period, or, "It's okay that you disagree with me," or, "We remember things differently. I remember things differently." Stick with those phrases, and use them as often as you need to. Keep repeating them becomes... because there is strength in the fact that you are not leaving what you've already said, but she is. You see? You see the difference, the distinction there? So it's not about trying to find new things to say. It is about sticking with what you've already said, all right? 'Cause you don't imagine facts, Eric. Okay, I have, I have time for one more, and

11. 11:38 – 14:10

    Listener question (Brie): when you’re accused of gaslighting but you’re not

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:38

       I wanted to make sure that I, I knock this one out. Uh, this follower comes from Northern Carolina. Uh, [laughs] Northern Carolina. North Cal- uh, Northern California. Northern California, and it's Bree. Bree says, "Hey, Jefferson. Sometimes I'm in an argument with my, uh, partner, and I am not trying to gaslight, but he accuses me of it, says that I'm trying to gaslight him, but I'm really not. I'm just disagreeing. How do I combat that out?" I understand what you're saying, Brie, and I don't, I don't think you're, I don't think you're in a relationship with Eric as far, [laughs] as far as I can tell. Anytime that you're in a conversation and you get into an argument and somebody says, "You're gaslighting me. You're gaslighting me," understand they may be using that in a way that is not correct. They just heard that phrase and they're using it inappropriately. Don't get into a situation of, "I'm not gaslighting you," and having that because it's just gonna confirm what they've already said. You just need to let, let that go. Let that go. Instead, encourage them to talk more. Hear me? Th- th- say, "I'm, I'm listening." Gaslighters don't say that. Gaslighters don't say, "I'm here to listen. I'm here to be helpful. I wanna hear what you have to say. Help me understand." You see the difference? Instead of you trying to push your narrative and say, "No, no, no, this is what happened," and they say, "No, this is what happened," and now it's just a clash of opinions. It's, it's a clash of who remembers it the most accurately. Instead, you need to come at it from the aspect of, "Help me understand what you remember," or, "What did you hear when this happened?" Instead of saying, "I didn't say that," it's, "Well, what did you hear?" So when you come from it from that opposite way that you're trying to be a student, trying to be a learner in that, in that conversation, "Help me understand this a little bit better. I, I'd like to know more about what happened in this moment or what you were thinking during this, during that time," anytime you're, you're saying it from a position of a learner, that's, that's absolutely not gaslighting. I would encourage you not to, to get into the, the hazy zone of saying who's gaslighting, who's not. Just drop that. Drop that. Instead, it just comes from a position of, "What did you hear when this happened?" "All right. Well, my experience is different. My experience was different. This is what I remember," or, "I remember things differently," just like we talked about with Eric. It's okay that we remember things differently. What did you hear? When you're coming at it from the back end rather than trying to push all your control into it, you're going

12. 14:10 – 15:05

    Wrap-up: the takeaway phrases and the ‘say less’ strategy

    1. JFJefferson Fisher14:10

       at it the right way, so that's what I would encourage you to do, Brie, and I hope you're well up in beautiful Northern Carolina... uh, [laughs] Northern California. [laughs] Thank you for listening to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, I'm gonna ask you to please like it, leave it a star, or leave it a review. And if you have any topic suggestions, just throw them in the comments. I'm reading them. They really make a difference. All right. What we learned today, uh, is about gaslighting, what it is and what it isn't, and when you get stuck in that moment where you feel like you're out of control and they are giving you phrases that try to question your reality, you're going to say less. You're going to say, "We see things differently," or, "It's okay that you disagree with me," or, "I don't imagine facts," or, "That's not what I heard." When you say less, you're going to be the one that keeps control, and that's how you respond to gaslighting. And as always, you can try that and follow me.

Episode duration: 15:06