Happiness Expert: Communication Hacks That Instantly Boost Your Mood

1. 0:00 – 5:27

   Gretchen Rubin’s happiness framework: practical, personalized, no one-size-fits-all

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      Today in this episode, at the end of it, I promise you you're going to feel a little happier. Today I have brought you what I would consider to be the world's number one influential leader on happiness. Today is Gretchen Rubin. She is amazing. Her resume needs no introduction. Her name has been actually an answer in Jeopardy, if that tells you the status of [laughs] of Gretchen. Uh, she was also a clerk for Sandra Day O'Connor at the Supreme Court as an attorney. Totally nerd out after that. She went to Yale Law School, so she's a fellow attorney, and she loves turning big, complex ideas into very short, simple, um, theories, is, as you know, listening, which I am all about. Gretchen, thank you so much for your time here today.

   2. GRGretchen Rubin0:50

      I'm so happy to be talking to you.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:52

      Yeah, this is just-

   4. GRGretchen Rubin0:53

      [laughs]

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:54

      ... fantastic. So I wanna, um, I already have your book, which we're going to go into, and I, I also first wanna talk about, uh, you have multiple books. She's, y'all, she's written multiple books on all kinds of different topics. The biggest one right now that I also have is The Happiness Project-

   6. GRGretchen Rubin1:12

      Mm-hmm

   7. JFJefferson Fisher1:12

      ... which I had already bought long time ago. Um, I would love for you just to kinda introduce your concepts of, uh, happiness. Uh, to me, you're the, the leading expert on-

   8. GRGretchen Rubin1:23

      Mm

   9. JFJefferson Fisher1:23

      ... all things, uh, happiness and human nature.

   10. GRGretchen Rubin1:26

       Yeah, well, yes, I love studying happiness because it's, uh, it's everything, right? It's relationships, it's exercise, it's creativity, it's how we organize our spaces, it's the five senses, it's... There's so many avenues to pursue within this larger subject of happiness. So, um, yeah, in The Happiness Project, that's where I sort of laid out my basic framework for happiness, and then ever since then, I've just gone deeper and deeper and deeper into it. Like, I have a personality framework that divides people into four categories, and I stumbled-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher1:58

       Right

   12. GRGretchen Rubin1:58

       ... onto that distinction as I was writing my book Better Than Before, which is all about habit change. Because if you're talking to people about how to be happier, very often you very quickly get to the issue of habits because people are like, "I know I would be happier if I got more sleep or stopped doomscrolling or read more or stopped yelling at my kids so much or whatever, but how, why, why can't I stop?" So that gets you to habits. So I think if I had to say what is my, like, most important, like, conclusion about happiness, it's that really there is no one right way or best way. I think people sort of wanna be handed a one-pager that will tell them what to do, like, "Get up early and exercise for two hours," or, [laughs] or whatever it is. But it's really like-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher2:38

       Right

   14. GRGretchen Rubin2:38

       ... we each have to figure it out for ourselves 'cause we're all so different, you know, in our, our nature and our temperament and our interests and our values and our weaknesses and our strengths. Um, so, m- uh, and I'm very practical. I'm like the Benjamin Franklin approach, you know, which is like really like-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher2:53

       Mm-hmm

   16. GRGretchen Rubin2:53

       ... w- how do we do this with our conscious thoughts and actions? Um, starting tomorrow with a l- without a lot of time, energy, or money, what can we do to make our lives happier?

   17. JFJefferson Fisher3:02

       Yeah, I, and I love that because it very much relates to communication. There's not one way to say a sentence.

   18. GRGretchen Rubin3:09

       Yes. Right.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher3:09

       There's a million different ways, and depending on who you are, where you come from, what your culture is, there's a million different ways to, to communicate the same type of thought, and one little change makes a, a very huge difference.

   20. GRGretchen Rubin3:22

       Oh, absolutely.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher3:22

       I love that you're choosing happiness. I love that you're studying this, because I feel like naturally just chasing this, uh, this mission of yours, I'm sure as a person it makes you very happy. I mean, I can't... When you talk about happiness, you feel a lot happier. You use the word happy, you naturally feel happier in, in conversation. So I love how just the idea, if you're listening to this, what I hope is that you start to just smile a little bit more, uh, just to go, "Hey, you know what? Just listening to Gretchen, I feel even a little bit happier just listening to us." I wanna call the attention real quick to this book that is, uh, what, how... Not that long ago when it came out. The Secrets of Adulthood.

   22. GRGretchen Rubin4:04

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher4:04

       Which I, um, think is fantastic. Y'all, I'm telling you, you need to go get this book because what it does, it's very concise. If you know me, you know I like distilling big ideas into something very short, simple, practical. That's exactly what this is. In fact, it's a very small book. It's very easy because it's full of what I would call, and I know you're gonna give me the more technical term, is isms.

   24. GRGretchen Rubin4:29

       Mm.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher4:29

       Little b- isms of things. Like my, uh, as you know, I'm a, also a trial attorney, and we have a bunch of attorneys in my family, so it's just old Southern isms all the time.

   26. GRGretchen Rubin4:40

       Mm.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher4:40

       Uh, I, I feel like we only talk in isms.

   28. GRGretchen Rubin4:43

       Love it.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher4:44

       Um, yeah, [laughs] my favorite.

   30. GRGretchen Rubin4:44

       I call those proverbs of the professions, which is like-
2. 5:27 – 7:20

   Why relationships are the biggest happiness lever—and communication is the engine

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:27

      of all things bedsheets related and any cozy comfy wear that you like. And on top of that, they have a 100-night guarantee trial for you to try on the sheets. 100 nights to try it. If you don't like it, you take 'em right back, but you're not gonna wanna do that. Go to cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 40% off. Do you find that when you're studying happiness, how- How important is communication and how we communicate to each other?

   2. GRGretchen Rubin5:58

      Well, it's extremely important because if, if you had to pick one thing to be the key to happiness, now you could answer that question in a couple different ways depending on sort of what perspective you're taking on happiness, but certainly one answer might be, and, and maybe the best answer would be relationships. Because as human beings, we need intimate enduring bonds to be happier. Uh, we are among-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:19

      Mm

   4. GRGretchen Rubin6:19

      ... the most social creatures on the planet. Um, we need to feel like we belong. We need to be able to get support, and just as important to happiness, we need to be able to give support. We need to be able to confide. We need to feel like we're, have strong relationships with other people. And when you look at the people who say they're happier, people are happier when they have more friends. People are happier when they have a friend at work. Um, relationships really, really matter, and what is key to relationships? Communication, because that, it's the communication that allows us to maintain enduring bonds over years and separation. It's the communication that allows us to work through conflict, resentment, pure bafflement. Um, it's the kind of communication that lets us feel like we can confide an important secret and that other people have our back, that we feel trusted and understood.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher7:15

      Mm.

   6. GRGretchen Rubin7:15

      So communication is really, really important, um, for a happy life.

3. 7:20 – 7:57

   Start with the body: sleep, movement, morning light, and circadian basics

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:20

      Do you find that there are certain tools that our listeners can use i- in your studies that you've seen that are, are practical strategies that they can use to increase their happiness?

   2. GRGretchen Rubin7:32

      Oh, I've got a million. Y- I mean-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher7:34

      I know. [laughs] I know you do. I know you do

   4. GRGretchen Rubin7:35

      ... that's kind of my m- my mission in life. [laughs] Um-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher7:38

      [laughs] I know you do. Yeah

   6. GRGretchen Rubin7:39

      ... uh, I mean, uh, give me-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher7:41

      Give me some of your favorite.

   8. GRGretchen Rubin7:42

      Uh-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher7:42

      Yeah, give me some of your favorite

   10. GRGretchen Rubin7:42

       ... getting asleep. Get some exercise.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher7:45

       There we go.

   12. GRGretchen Rubin7:45

       Never, never overlook your body. Many people go straight to some kind of abstract thing or like, "Oh my God, I got to start a meditation practice," and I'm like, "Are you getting enough sleep and are you getting s- like some movement in your day?"

   13. JFJefferson Fisher7:56

       Mm-hmm. [laughs]

4. 7:57 – 8:53

   Outer order, inner calm: the one-minute rule and reducing life’s surface clutter

   1. GRGretchen Rubin7:57

      Like always be- like begin with the basics like that. Are you getting morning light in your face? Like there's all this research about the circadian rhythm now. Um, because people often overlook their physical condition, but their, your physical condition is always gonna influence your mental and emotional condition, so you want to just make sure that you, you're, you're taking care of the basics. Another thing is if you're trying to figure out how to spend your precious time, energy, or money, number one should be relationships for all the reasons we just talked about. Like if you're thinking, "Should I spend the money to go to my college reunion? Should I make the effort to go see my, my coworker's new baby?" It's like, probably yes, you should, because anything that deepens or runs relationships is something that's likely to make you happier. For a lot of people, not everybody importantly, but for a lot of people-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:41

      Mm-hmm

   3. GRGretchen Rubin8:41

      ... outer order contributes to inner calm, and sometimes like, um, a lot of people love, uh, the hack of the, a one-minute rule. Anything you can do in less than a minute, do without delay. Um, and that just-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

      Mm

5. 8:53 – 10:36

   Design your sensory environment: light, sound, and comfort that fit you

   1. GRGretchen Rubin8:53

      ... gets rid of that scum of clutter and tasks on the surface of life. You know, if you're putting a mug in the dishwasher, you're putting a, a piece of paper in a folder, or you're shredding something and getting it off your desk, like this gives people a dispor- proportionate sense of energy and focus. Another thing, I wrote a whole book called Life in Five Senses that's all about tapping into the five senses, and one thing is to really think about your sensory environment because sometimes we don't really pay attention. And so it's like if you go, if you make like a, a, if you give like a salute while you're sitting at your desk and you, you feel relief in your eyes, that means there's too much light. Or maybe there's not enough light. Or maybe you have started working from home and you're still using some horrible hard dining room chair as your desk chair instead of getting a proper chair.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher9:38

      [laughs]

   3. GRGretchen Rubin9:38

      Um, maybe-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher9:39

      Hey, take it easy.

   5. GRGretchen Rubin9:40

      Yeah.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher9:40

      Take it easy. [laughs]

   7. GRGretchen Rubin9:41

      Yeah. Maybe you don't like, uh, your, your sound environment. Okay. So for you, when you're trying to do-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher9:46

      Yeah

   9. GRGretchen Rubin9:46

      ... like your most intense work, do you like silence, music without words, music with words, like chatter, busy chatter like a coffee shop-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher9:56

       Mm-hmm

   11. GRGretchen Rubin9:56

       ... or cacophony? What, what do you prefer? I, I like silence. What do you like?

   12. JFJefferson Fisher10:01

       If I'm reading, I have to have-

   13. GRGretchen Rubin10:03

       Or if you're write-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher10:03

       ... silence

   15. GRGretchen Rubin10:03

       ... or if you're doing your most intense work. Is that what you're... Yeah.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher10:06

       Then I need quiet.

   17. GRGretchen Rubin10:07

       Yeah.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher10:07

       I need quiet, 'cause most of the time I'm, I'm hearing it in my head.

   19. GRGretchen Rubin10:10

       Mm.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher10:11

       But if I'm doing something that is meaningless, like just going through emails or sorting them, I'm, I'm blaring some, some music.

   21. GRGretchen Rubin10:19

       Interesting. See, everybody has-

   22. JFJefferson Fisher10:20

       Yeah

   23. GRGretchen Rubin10:20

       ... a different kind of sensory environment, but which is why when they have studies when they're like, like, uh, jazz music produc- you know, in- increases creativity. I'm like, maybe for some people.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher10:33

       Yeah. [laughs]

   25. GRGretchen Rubin10:33

       But for others not. You know what I mean? Because-

   26. JFJefferson Fisher10:36

       Right

6. 10:36 – 12:39

   Simplicity lovers vs. abundance lovers: why shared spaces can create friction

   1. GRGretchen Rubin10:36

      ... um, and then there's things like, um, th- this is, and this goes to self-knowledge, which is are you creating an environment that works for you? Like what, with what's under your control, because we can't control everything, but some things we can control. Um, like another distinction i- in terms of how we work is, uh, simplicity lovers and abundance lovers. So simplicity lovers like me-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher10:56

      Mm

   3. GRGretchen Rubin10:57

      ... like bare surfaces and clear shelves and not that much going on.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher11:02

      [laughs] Yeah.

   5. GRGretchen Rubin11:02

      A lot of like really sp- spare. And then abundance lovers like profusion and choice and collections and buzz and a lot going on. And it, and like it's fine to be either one, but if you're in an office situation and you're a simplicity lover and the person sitting like at the, at the, you know, in an open office-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher11:21

      Mm-hmm

   7. GRGretchen Rubin11:22

      ... sitting next to you is an abundance lover, like you might really feel distracted by that. Um, so anyway-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher11:30

      [laughs]

   9. GRGretchen Rubin11:30

      ... it's just self-knowledge and trying to think about what you can do within your control to make your life reflect, um, the circumstances that work best for you.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher11:39

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7. 12:39 – 14:43

   Colors and smells: how much “happiness cues” are cultural, not universal

   1. JFJefferson Fisher12:39

      off your first subscription order. So that's livemomentous.com. Use the code Jefferson for 35% off your first subscription. Did you find, wasn't it part of the senses, too, is, like, colors?

   2. GRGretchen Rubin12:51

      I love color.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher12:52

      Right?

   4. GRGretchen Rubin12:52

      Oh, I went through a whole period of being so preoccupied by color.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher12:59

      C- g- what, what was some of your takeaways here? What, what are some of the colors of happiness that we can... 'Cause I'm about to go in my closet and put them on.

   6. GRGretchen Rubin13:05

      Mm. Well, one thing that's interesting is there's no, like, people say, like, co- like, red is energizing. N- that's not true. These are all cul- these are all cultural associations. So there's no-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher13:15

      Okay

   8. GRGretchen Rubin13:16

      ... inherent meaning to a certain kind of color. Um, but, uh, it's whatever color makes you happy. Like, that's just, some people like neutrals, and some people like really bright, and some people like patterns. Like, I don't like patterns very much. I like a monochrome. But, um, you know, it's whatever, it ever, whatever works for you. Again, like, it's very interesting. People want, like, there to be, like, a chart where everything corresponds.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher13:44

      Yeah.

   10. GRGretchen Rubin13:44

       Um, and-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher13:45

       I can see that

   12. GRGretchen Rubin13:46

       ... and, and it's, and it's interesting, and this is true also from Life in 5 Senses, with smell. Like, there are actually ingrained, like, um, preferences that we're born with, and that's really important because as a newborn, what you put in your mouth could kill you. So it's really important that even as a newborn-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher14:04

       Mm

   14. GRGretchen Rubin14:04

       ... you know that if something's very bitter, it's more likely to be toxic, and if it's likely, and if it's sweet, it's more likely to be nutritious. And so we're born from the get-go thinking that bitter is bad and sweet is good. But we don't have any preferences for smells because the world does not offer us killer smells. And so-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher14:22

       Yeah

   16. GRGretchen Rubin14:22

       ... all of the associations, that rose smells good and, you know, whatever smells bad, these are purely cultural associations, which is kind of hard to wrap your mind around, right? Because you just say like, "Well, obviously this smells bad."

   17. JFJefferson Fisher14:37

       Mm.

   18. GRGretchen Rubin14:37

       But it's like, no, you've just been taught that it smells bad.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher14:41

       How interesting.

   20. GRGretchen Rubin14:42

       Mm-hmm.

8. 14:43 – 23:32

   The attorney’s brain: thinking in counterarguments, precision, and assumptions

   1. JFJefferson Fisher14:43

      I want to, I wanna change gears here real quick. And I have to say, I love that you're also an attorney.

   2. GRGretchen Rubin14:51

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher14:52

      And I wonder, I wonder how much us having gone through law school has affected how we think of communication and we think of, uh, we think really critically-

   4. GRGretchen Rubin15:05

      Mm-hmm

   5. JFJefferson Fisher15:06

      ... about things, I found. Uh, I mean, there's nothing-

   6. GRGretchen Rubin15:08

      Yes

   7. JFJefferson Fisher15:08

      ... an attorney loves more than being suspicious of just about everything.

   8. GRGretchen Rubin15:13

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher15:14

      And we like to overthink, overanalyze. We like to play devil's advocate.

   10. GRGretchen Rubin15:19

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher15:20

       And we like to very much synthesize, like as a trial attorney, I'm taking a lot of big information, what might be three years' worth of a case for a client, and I have to distill it to two sentences that I'm about to tell the, tell the jury. And the same thing w- as you do in, in your practice. I'm very curious, uh, for those who might be attorneys listening right now or are interested in law school, I'm very... Or, or they might be related to one. What do you think are some things as attorneys that we've been taught and our brains, or maybe just the kind of personalities that we are-

   12. GRGretchen Rubin15:54

       Mm-hmm

   13. JFJefferson Fisher15:55

       ... affect how we have the lens on the world?

   14. GRGretchen Rubin16:00

       Yeah, it's a really interesting question because one of the thing about law school is it definitely changes the way you think, and it's very, it's a very-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher16:05

       Yeah

   16. GRGretchen Rubin16:05

       ... interesting process. Like I remember as a first year being like, "Wow, this is really changing the way that I think, and I can feel the rewiring happening." It's r- it's, it's really very profound. Part of it is having a vocabulary to describe things-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher16:17

       Mm-hmm

   18. GRGretchen Rubin16:17

       ... that before, like, I remember learning about, um, constructive eviction, and being like, "I love that there's a word for that." Or, um, acting in reliance. I was like-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher16:28

       Yeah

   20. GRGretchen Rubin16:28

       ... "I'm so happy to know that there's a term for that." Because, like, we all know about acting in reliance, but I didn't know that there was a frame for it. So part of it is having a more sophisticated vocabulary. Another is having a just a more, an, a deeper understanding of how the world works because I was shockingly, um, uninformed about, like, how courts worked and how the government worked.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher16:47

       And, uh, yeah, and laws.

   22. GRGretchen Rubin16:48

       Yeah.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher16:48

       Yeah. I'm with you. Yes, yeah.

   24. GRGretchen Rubin16:49

       Yeah, like, you know, the common law. I'm like, "What?" I remember, like, the first day of class, somebody was like, the answer was, like, the common law. I was like, "Whoa, I did not get the summer reading list on this because I didn't know that answer." Anyway, um, but I, what I really think h- helped, and this is really what informs... There's two ways that it's affected me as a writer. One is I think as a lawyer you always say, "But what if I were gonna argue the other side?"

   25. JFJefferson Fisher17:13

       Yes.

   26. GRGretchen Rubin17:13

       What if somebody was gonna argue exactly the opposite? Because when I read a lot of op-eds or, or articles or things, people are arguing and arguing and arguing assuming that they're right. And I'm like, "But you're not at all taking into account all the counterarguments." And so, uh, y- y- and you're just j- jumping over massive assumptions that as a lawyer we would have to lay every single piece of, of a foundation for everything that we're saying. And, like, so I clerked-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher17:41

       Spot on. Yeah

   28. GRGretchen Rubin17:41

       ... I clerked on the Supreme Court And I remember, you know, and of course all-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher17:44

       Which is incredible, by the way

   30. GRGretchen Rubin17:46

       Yeah. Oh, it was
9. 23:32 – 25:58

   Communication that boosts happiness: word choice, fewer casual curses, and “stickiness”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher23:32

      and you get a 100-day trial. So if you don't trust me, try it out, a hund- 100-day trial, free shipping and free returns. No risk, just better cooking. Give 'em a try. And now, back to the episode. All right, so now that we've talked about, you know, what, uh, an attorney's mind might think of or how we break things down a little bit differently, especially with your resume, I wanna have a quick discussion on how outside of just relationships, ha- forming better relationships, how can communication bring happiness? What are practical strategies we can do to better eff, you know, bring the effect of happiness? What comes to mind for me is, one, using more positive words, is if I feel like I'm saying more positive things, then I am creating a more positive relationship and environment for the conversation. Two, I am... Put yourself in a more positive environment, um, such as instead of having a conversation in the office in the cubicle, have the conversation outside. Have it on a, a, a park bench. You're gonna have bigger perspective of things. I'm curious what comes to mind for you, Gretchen. How can we use communication, little tips and strategies, to better increase or boost our happiness, even if it's just 1%?

   2. GRGretchen Rubin24:48

      Um, well, one thing that I'm trying to work on is not, just, like, not casually cursing. I think there's been a lot of cur-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher24:55

      Mm

   4. GRGretchen Rubin24:55

      ... like, there's been a real increase in just cursing, um-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher24:59

      Yeah

   6. GRGretchen Rubin24:59

      ... in all kinds of circumstances where it would've been, like, extremely inappropriate and rare, and I think it just adds an element of ugliness and ratcheting up an argument in a way that is often, uh, not helpful. And I think I can't change the way other people communicate, but I can change the way that I can communicate. And so unless I'm, like, you know, just, like, you know, slammed a door on my big toe or something like that, I really just try-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher25:27

      [laughs]

   8. GRGretchen Rubin25:27

      Like, not like I curse like a sailor or anyway, but I just, I just wanna use more gentle words because I just, like you say, like, the words that we use influence our minds. Um, another thing, um, to keep in mind, and this is just a really fun one, is the fluency heuristic, which is that if you say something in a very memorable way, like it rhymes or something like that, it's stickier in the brain, and, um, people, and it's more convincing to people. So that's like, if it bleeds, it leads. Like, that's the fluency heuristic.

10. 25:58 – 27:42

    Hard conversations: walk-and-talk, side-by-side positioning, and supportive touch

    1. GRGretchen Rubin25:58

       And so that's just kind of a funny thing to keep in mind, like, if you're trying to come up with something that really, um, that's really persuasive, uh, to people, which is strangely, like, if it's just very sticky in the mind, it, it, it feels more correct. And it's interesting that you say about putting yourself in a positive environment. Um, one really interesting thing to do this is if you're having a difficult conversation, like, and of course you would wanna do this in the right environment, like, with, like, your sweetheart or something. But if you have to have a difficult conversation, well, first of all, have it while walking. That's always really helpful-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher26:34

       Mm

    3. GRGretchen Rubin26:34

       ... is if you're walking, you, you, you're releasing that nervous energy, you're side to side instead of face to face, and a lot of times with people in a difficult conversation, that just makes it easier. Um, there's obviously a beginning, middle, and an end to it, like if you're going on a hike or you're walking around the reservoir or something. And so that kind of gives people this knowledge, like, "Oh my gosh, this isn't gonna go on forever," if it's a really painful conversation. But another thing that I really like is to hold someone's hand. It's really hard to yell at somebody if you're holding their hand. Um, and so if you have to have a difficult conversation, like, look for a way to like... Now, obviously you're not gonna do this with your coworker, but, but there are times-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher27:09

       [laughs] Yeah

    5. GRGretchen Rubin27:09

       ... where you can really, you can just, if you're physically connected with somebody... In fact, somebody who was a, who was a couples therapist said that what she does when she has couples who are, like, just yelling at each other, she makes them-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher27:20

       Make 'em hold hands

    7. GRGretchen Rubin27:20

       ... lie down on the ground, like, with their, their, their, like, like, uh, r- running, like, with their sides touching, right? So from shoulder to leg, they're touching. And then he- she's like, "You just cannot yell like that. You cannot, you cannot physically-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher27:36

       That's funny

    9. GRGretchen Rubin27:36

       ... have a shouting match while you're lying-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher27:38

        Right

    11. GRGretchen Rubin27:38

        ... on the floor, you know, shoulder to..." [laughs] And I just thought that-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher27:42

        Yeah, yeah

11. 27:42 – 33:14

    Humor and levity as social glue: being memorable without being a comedian

    1. GRGretchen Rubin27:42

       ... partly it's just so silly. I mean, one thing I would say about, and this is, like, this is advanced. Like, this is if you are good, but if you are skillful, use humor. Humor is so effective if you, to lighten the mood, to make a point gently, to praise people in a way that doesn't embarrass them, in a way to, like, you know, like, point out your own flaws. Like, one of the things [laughs] about me is, like, uh, my sister, uh, who's, uh, calls me a happiness bully because if I think there's a way for you to get happier, I can get quite insistent. But this is actually a really useful thing for me because I say to everybody, "I am a happiness bully," and, and like, and I'll say, like, "I have an idea for you," and in my happiness bully way, I just cannot resist. Like, "Do you wanted some advice? 'Cause, like, I'm thinking of something that might work for you." But that, and some people are like, "Actually, no. No, thanks." And I'm like, "Cool. That's fine." But it gives me a way to, like, point out this aspect of my nature, which is kind of, like, part of who I am in a way that's lighthearted and in a way that allows people to say, like, "Hey, back off," but in a lighthearted way. So it's like neither one of us has to feel uncomfortable. I get to offer, like, I wanna get in there and muck around in your life, and you're saying, "You know what? Like, no thank you," and that's okay. But this being able to bring in humor, and it's also more memorable. It's funny because-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher29:08

       Mm

    3. GRGretchen Rubin29:08

       ... like, in terms of, like, like, what we consider to be serious, serious literature, serious movies, it's always things that are, like, very dark and sad. But actually, like, we're very attracted to what's funny. It energizes us. It brings people together. I mean, you know this as a trial attorney. Like, anything that people can laugh at, it just, like, it just, it just changes the mood. And if you're, like, ha- in a tough moment with people, if you can go to humor and to levity, you don't actually have to be funny. Nobody's asking you to be, like, a stand-up, but just introducing a moment of levity can, can do so much to just make it Better, like I, this is one thing, because I am, I am kind of like an uptight, this may come, sound surprising, but like an uptight, rigid person. And m- my husband and I, we just got a new puppy. What were we thinking? We completely forgot how much work it is-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher30:00

       [laughs]

    5. GRGretchen Rubin30:00

       ... to have a new puppy. And people were saying to me, like-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher30:01

       Yeah

    7. GRGretchen Rubin30:01

       ... "Oh, is it bringing you and your husband together?" And I'm like, "No, actually, we're bickering all the time."

    8. JFJefferson Fisher30:06

       No. [laughs]

    9. GRGretchen Rubin30:06

       And finally my husband was like-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher30:07

        Yeah

    11. GRGretchen Rubin30:07

        ... "You're being so critical of what I'm doing with Taffy. Like, back up." And I, which was true. It was 100% deserved, but now I can just kind of laugh at it and still say like, you know, um, "You're right." You know, I can make fun of myself and still say to him, like, "Okay, but you know we need to run her around before bedtime, so like, you're not doing that. You're just petting her on your lap." Well, you know, whatever. Um, so it gives this away. So, so those are some suggestions I would say about, about communicating.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher30:34

        I think those are awesome. I, I really love the humor.

    13. GRGretchen Rubin30:38

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher30:38

        You know, any time that you can communicate just a glimmer-

    15. GRGretchen Rubin30:42

        Yeah

    16. JFJefferson Fisher30:43

        ... of humor in conversation, the other person almost picks up, uh-

    17. GRGretchen Rubin30:48

        Yes

    18. JFJefferson Fisher30:48

        ... subconsciously of like, "I kinda like this person."

    19. GRGretchen Rubin30:50

        Yes.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher30:51

        You know, they're, they're realizing it's not as serious as, as it needs to be. I came across these, uh, videos, Gretchen, that, uh, I forgot, I'm sure there's some name for them, but they're sayings that you can use at the end of any situation that kind of add, um, some levity to the situation. Like for example, just adding, "And that's jazz," to the end of it. Or, um, "And I've always said that." Like, these little bitty things that you can add no matter how serious it is. Um, I-

    21. GRGretchen Rubin31:23

        I add, "As one does," a lot, you know? Like-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher31:25

        As one does.

    23. GRGretchen Rubin31:26

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher31:26

        Yeah, exactly. As one does.

    25. GRGretchen Rubin31:27

        Like you're yelling at your husband about the puppy-

    26. JFJefferson Fisher31:29

        Yeah

    27. GRGretchen Rubin31:29

        ... as one does.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher31:30

        As one does.

    29. GRGretchen Rubin31:30

        Yeah. Yeah.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher31:31

        Yes. Uh, those kind of things always, always make me laugh. Mine is, "Well, maybe so. Then again, maybe not."
12. 33:14 – 36:31

    ‘Secrets of Adulthood’: why she wrote it and favorite “isms” that guide decisions

    1. JFJefferson Fisher33:14

       Yeah. Everybody, I think everybody has a, a, a default love language, so to speak. But those are all wonderful takeaways that I think can instantly improve happiness to anybody's next conversation that they're, they're going to have. So today I would encourage you, if you can, use some smiles, use some positive language, and find a way to add some humor into the conversation. Try out one of these little isms. I am, uh, curious, before we end today, Gretchen, what are some of your favorites out of The Secrets of Adulthood?

    2. GRGretchen Rubin33:44

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher33:45

       I need y'all, everybody to go get it. It's by Gretchen Rubin. Secrets of Adulthood, a wonderful little book. It's, I promise you it's gonna, you're gonna get happy reading this thing. I'm very curious why you wanted to write this book and some of your favorites in it.

    4. GRGretchen Rubin33:57

       Well, I wanted to write the book for a, a couple different reasons. I, my daughters were going out into the world and I wanted to like write down the secrets of adulthood that I had learned, you know, with time and experience, usually the hard way, uh, to give to them to try to spare them some of the, the suffering and experience that I went through. And I realized like I wanted to remind them of these, these secrets of adulthood, but also myself. Like, you know, work, you know, uh, I need to be reminded that something that can be done at any time is often done in no time, as much as they did. Um, and also just creatively I was really pushing myself to write in this, this very brief format because, uh, creatively and intellectually to really distill a big idea into a line or two is, um, is, is very challenging and like, and I, and I, and I thought that was really interesting. So some of my favorites are, um, working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. That's one that I have to-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher34:50

       That's so good

    6. GRGretchen Rubin34:50

       ... remind myself of all the time.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher34:51

       That's so good. Yeah.

    8. GRGretchen Rubin34:53

       Um, one, another is, um, we care for many people we don't particularly care for, which I think is-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher34:59

       Oh.

    10. GRGretchen Rubin35:00

        Yeah.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher35:00

        That's a good one, Gretch. I love that one.

    12. GRGretchen Rubin35:03

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher35:03

        That one's a good one. Okay.

    14. GRGretchen Rubin35:05

        Mm-hmm. Uh-

    15. JFJefferson Fisher35:06

        Keep, keep going

    16. GRGretchen Rubin35:06

        ... another one is, um, love is unconditional and love is demanding. Love accepts you just as you are, and love expects the best from you.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher35:17

        Hmm.

    18. GRGretchen Rubin35:17

        This is like a paradox that took me a long time to understand. Um, uh, another one is, uh, well, the, so in the back, so most of The Secrets of Adulthood are kind of, you know, I, I would say j- I'm, they're, I'm hoping that they're kind of big insights into human nature. So like, "The bird and the bee and the bat all fly-"

    19. JFJefferson Fisher35:38

        Yes. I love them

    20. GRGretchen Rubin35:38

        ... but they use different wings," right?

    21. JFJefferson Fisher35:40

        Yes.

    22. GRGretchen Rubin35:40

        But then in the back, there are these, what I call simple secrets of adulthood, and these are more like hacks. And I have to say that as I was writing my Secrets of Adulthood, I just can't resist a hack, so I just couldn't resist making this kind of-

    23. JFJefferson Fisher35:51

        Yeah

    24. GRGretchen Rubin35:51

        ... other list of more practical secrets of adulthood. And when I submitted the manuscript, I really thought that my editor would say, "Gretchen, no. We're gonna cut these out. They don't belong." But she's like, "Oh, I think they're fun. Like, they're, they're interesting too. They're valuable too. Let's put them in." So they're in there too, and that's things like, "If you don't know what to do with yourself-"

    25. JFJefferson Fisher36:09

        Yes

    26. GRGretchen Rubin36:09

        ... "go outside or go to sleep."

    27. JFJefferson Fisher36:11

        That's what, that, that's one of my ones I have underlined twice.

    28. GRGretchen Rubin36:14

        Okay, good.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher36:14

        If you feel like you're in a place where like, "I don't know what to do with myself"-

    30. GRGretchen Rubin36:17

        Yes
13. 36:31 – 40:23

    Closing takeaways + where to find Gretchen: podcast, newsletter, Substack, and quizzes

    1. JFJefferson Fisher36:31

       I, I love everything about this book. I would encourage everybody who's listening, go get The Secrets of Adulthood: Simple Truths for Our Complex Lives. So if you're feeling, if anybody who's graduating, I know she- you wrote it for your daughters, which I love. I also like it as a big fan of isms myself, and I, I think it's fantastic. All right, I wanna make sure we leave with three takeaways as we do. What we talked about today is how do you create a happier life based on your communication and your conversations? What I left and took away from is, one, you can talk about happier things. Understand what's gonna build your happiness is talking about the relationships that are important to you, because we all desire that human connection. Two, if you can, touch a friend, get outside, change your environment, go for a walk. I really like that suggestion. Go for a walk when you're having a difficult conversation. Change your environment, which is gonna change the way each of you is going to interpret it. And three, I'm gonna throw this out there. Gretchen, you can tell me if you agree. Use metaphors any time that you have a hard time expressing something. You know, whatever it is, find a way to use a metaphor to express how you're feeling. It's gonna make it go a little bit easier, and, and certainly I feel like how our brains have certainly been wired to look on the other side of the issue before you s- start thinking that you're the only one who has a point. What do you think about those, Gretchen?

    2. GRGretchen Rubin37:52

       I think those are great.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher37:53

       [laughs] That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for all of your time that you spent here with us. I... Where can, uh, uh, my listeners find more of you? I know you have The Happiness Project, as well as your podcast.

    4. GRGretchen Rubin38:04

       Yeah, so the podcast is called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Um, but you can find out everything about me on my website, gretchenrubin.com, like about my books. I've got a bunch of quizzes. If you love a self-knowledge quiz, I've got, like, some really great quizzes. Um, I have a 5 Things Making Me Happy newsletter. I have a Substack called Secrets of Adulthood, which is where all... which is teaching stories, if you love a teaching story. Lawyers love teaching stories in my experience.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher38:28

       That's true.

    6. GRGretchen Rubin38:29

       Um, and, uh, and I'm on social media all over the place as Gretchen Rubin, and I love to connect with, uh, listeners and readers be- the world is my research assistant, and I love to have questions and insights and observations and examples, um, from people. So hit me up in all the places.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher38:47

       Tell me, what quizzes do you have? I'm curious.

    8. GRGretchen Rubin38:49

       So I have a quiz, um, The Four Tendencies. So I have a personality framework that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, rebels. That's my most popular quiz. Like, three and a half million-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher38:58

       Okay

    10. GRGretchen Rubin38:58

        ... people have taken that quiz. That's-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher39:00

        Oh, wow. Okay

    12. GRGretchen Rubin39:00

        ... that's a very useful quiz. Like, it will tell you, like... It will reveal so much to you about yourself and also about everybody else in your life and help you figure out how to change your habits. Um, then I have a What's Your Neglected Sense? quiz. This is a super fun quiz about the senses. Um, I have a Habits for Happiness quiz. If you're saying, "I wanna make myself happier, but where should I start?" This is a quiz that kind of in an uncanny way can tell you, not just anybody, but you specifically, what would, what kind of habit is gonna move the needle most for you right now. This is a quiz that you might get a different answer in a month because your life may have changed, but this is-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher39:38

        Mm-hmm

    14. GRGretchen Rubin39:38

        ... gonna tell you what to do right now. And then [laughs] I have a very silly quiz, but super fun, super popular, which is, it's, uh, gift appreciation, 'cause I noticed that there's different styles of gift receivers. You mentioned the love languages before, but-

    15. JFJefferson Fisher39:51

        Yes

    16. GRGretchen Rubin39:51

        ... it's like if you're trying to buy a gift for your fa- you know, for your father for his birthday, it's like, "What kind of gift should I get?" This tells you what kind of gift... It's just, it's just a fun... It was just something weird-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher40:00

        Those are awesome

    18. GRGretchen Rubin40:00

        ... it's a weird thing about human nature that I noticed, and I just couldn't resist turning it into a quiz. Anyway, they're all super fun in their own way.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher40:07

        No, I love it. All right. So I, as soon as we get done with this conversation, I'm gonna go take one of these quizzes, 'cause I think those are so awesome, and I encourage everybody to get it. Go follow Gretchen Rubin wherever she is. Gretchen, thank you so much for your time. I truly appreciate it.

    20. GRGretchen Rubin40:20

        Thank you so much. I so enjoyed our conversation.

Episode duration: 40:23