Harvard Professor: 4 Secrets to a Happy Relationship (Backed by Neuroscience)

1. 0:00 – 3:55

   Why marriage gets easier after year five (and what couples learn)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      Have you ever questioned the meaning of your life? Well, today I am talking with none other than Arthur Brooks. You know him as the happiness expert. He is a behavioral scientist at the Harvard University, has his own lab. He is one of the best people I've ever met, and this is only the beginning of the year. He has a book called The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. You'll find the links down in the show notes. This book is releasing very soon. It's already on sale. I can tell you, one of these... This conversation is probably one of the most meaningful I've had because of the topics we went into. He's somebody that's almost double my age, and so we get to di- dive into topics and lessons about marriage and faith and family and imposter syndrome and why you should be bored, why boredom is a good thing. You should be probably bored more often. We dive into these things, and what's best is he gets to use a lot of the science and research that he already used. This is a conversation that you're really gonna get a whole lot of value from. You're gonna wanna make sure and listen. This is The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. Wherever you're listening, same as always, I, I'm going to ask right now that you find wherever you're listening and press the button subscribe. If it's you're watching it, listening to it, it's totally for free, and what it does is it really helps me and my family, uh, and it tells the platform that what you're listening to is good stuff, and that's my promise. If you listen and subscribe to these podcast episodes, I'm going to make you a better communicator and, in turn, hopefully have a better life. My conversation with Arthur was deep and way more than I ever expected. I, I know you're really going to like it, so enjoy the conversation. But you... Have you always been in, lived in Virginia area?

   2. ABArthur Brooks1:45

      No, no, I grew up in Seattle.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:47

      I was gonna say, I thought you were in Seattle area or something.

   4. ABArthur Brooks1:48

      Grew up in Seattle. I've moved 20 times in the past, in 30... I've been married 34 years. We moved 20 times together. Every place, man. We lived in Atlanta. We lived in LA. We lived in Syracuse for seven years. We lived in-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher2:02

      20 times?

   6. ABArthur Brooks2:03

      20 times. We lived in Barcelona for off and on for years and years. Yeah, yeah. We're... We can't... I'm in the witness protection program. [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher2:10

      Yeah, you might as well be.

   8. ABArthur Brooks2:12

      No, no.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher2:12

      So with that, like, you moving all these other places-

   10. ABArthur Brooks2:14

       Yeah

   11. JFJefferson Fisher2:14

       ... and here you've been married, what'd you say, 30-

   12. ABArthur Brooks2:16

       34 years

   13. JFJefferson Fisher2:16

       ... yeah. So then what's-

   14. ABArthur Brooks2:17

       34 years

   15. JFJefferson Fisher2:17

       ... what's giving some wisdom?

   16. ABArthur Brooks2:19

       What, what, what motivates that? Or what-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher2:20

       Well, no, I-

   18. ABArthur Brooks2:21

       ... what wisdom do you want? Actually, we're recording. You want to talk about, want to talk about how to, how to fall in love and stay in love?

   19. JFJefferson Fisher2:25

       No, no. [laughs] It's, it's... I'm, um... You know, I, we move, oddly enough, we move, like, every three years.

   20. ABArthur Brooks2:33

       Yeah.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher2:33

       And so, uh, and we've been married, it'll be 15 years.

   22. ABArthur Brooks2:37

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher2:37

       This... You know, so-

   24. ABArthur Brooks2:38

       Mm-hmm

   25. JFJefferson Fisher2:38

       ... still less than halfway-

   26. ABArthur Brooks2:39

       You're on your way up

   27. JFJefferson Fisher2:41

       ... through the years. Um-

   28. ABArthur Brooks2:41

       You're on your way up. Once you're past five-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher2:43

       Yeah

   30. ABArthur Brooks2:43

       ... five is the, is the witching year.
2. 3:55 – 8:01

   The 4 neuroscience-backed habits for a happier marriage

   1. ABArthur Brooks3:55

      Okay. The four secrets to, to-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:57

      And don't even worry about, like, having to have, like, the-

   3. ABArthur Brooks3:59

      The four secrets to saving... to, to, to either saving your marriage or actually having a happier marriage and based on neuroscience. So number one is when you're... So you've been married 15 years. It's very easy, 'cause you're distracted. I mean, like, it's like your life is changing really fast. You're like, "I don't know what's going on, man."

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:13

      Yeah.

   5. ABArthur Brooks4:13

      "Like, I blew up on Instagram."

   6. JFJefferson Fisher4:14

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. ABArthur Brooks4:15

      "What the... It was not on my bingo card."

   8. JFJefferson Fisher4:16

      Right, right, right.

   9. ABArthur Brooks4:16

      But you're distracted, and you're a lawyer-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher4:18

       Sure

   11. ABArthur Brooks4:18

       ... and you're doing a podcast, and you're doing... You have, like, nine jobs.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher4:21

       Yeah.

   13. ABArthur Brooks4:21

       And your wife's super busy 'cause she's practicing law, and how many children do you have?

   14. JFJefferson Fisher4:25

       We have two.

   15. ABArthur Brooks4:26

       And you're raising two kids.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher4:27

       Yeah.

   17. ABArthur Brooks4:28

       And, and it feels, they're in a certain age, so it feels like 20.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher4:30

       It l- yeah, it feels like you have f-

   19. ABArthur Brooks4:32

       Yeah

   20. JFJefferson Fisher4:32

       ... f- five kids.

   21. ABArthur Brooks4:33

       Yeah.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher4:33

       It feels like-

   23. ABArthur Brooks4:33

       So the, the first thing that, the first bad habit you get into is that, believe it or not, simple. You stop looking at each other in the eyes when you're talking.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher4:42

       Mm.

   25. ABArthur Brooks4:42

       The number one way to r- to, to rekindle your marriage is every time you're looking at her, you're staring her in the eyes.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher4:49

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ABArthur Brooks4:49

       Now, women have three times as much oxytocin as men, which is a neuropeptide in the brain of human bonding, and the reason is because they bond to an infant with eye contact while nursing. And so when a baby is nursing with, with his mom, her mom, the baby is staring into the mother's eyes, and they're both just, like, bo- this bonding neuropeptide.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher5:09

       Yeah.

   29. ABArthur Brooks5:09

       This, that functions as a hormone, oxytocin. But the whole point is that you get that with anybody who you love. When you're, when your, your friends, your parents, your kids-

   30. JFJefferson Fisher5:17

       Mm-hmm
3. 8:01 – 10:17

   Prayer, intimacy, and putting God “number one” in the relationship

   1. ABArthur Brooks8:01

      But, but there is stuff that you do like to do together, and every couple does that. Do more of that. And the last is praying together.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:06

      Mm.

   3. ABArthur Brooks8:07

      Praying together is super important. Now, not everybody's religious.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:09

      Sure.

   5. ABArthur Brooks8:09

      And so, you know, maybe it's meditating together. Another way that you can do this is, like, reading to each other.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher8:14

      Mm.

   7. ABArthur Brooks8:15

      So read to each other at night, like in bed. So you're reading to her, and she's reading to you. It has a really very strong brain-to-brain coupling effect. But praying together is the single most intimate thing you can actually do together, is talking to God. And the reason is because what you're saying is, "We are united with the divine."

   8. JFJefferson Fisher8:33

      Mm.

   9. ABArthur Brooks8:33

      The divine is our uniting force. It's like two keys on a nuclear sub to launch the missiles.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher8:38

       Yeah.

   11. ABArthur Brooks8:38

       That, that's like y- your, the, your marriage becomes an antenna to the divine when you do that.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher8:42

       I can tell when, in my own marriage, it's Sierra feels way more connected when we share. We might be on a walk after dropping off the kids or something.

   13. ABArthur Brooks8:53

       Yeah.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

       And I share what God's doing in my life.

   15. ABArthur Brooks8:57

       Yeah.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher8:57

       And she shares what's-

   17. ABArthur Brooks8:58

       Right

   18. JFJefferson Fisher8:58

       ... God's doing in her life or w- she's reading.

   19. ABArthur Brooks9:00

       Right.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher9:01

       And like that-

   21. ABArthur Brooks9:02

       Super good

   22. JFJefferson Fisher9:03

       ... oh, my goodness, she-

   23. ABArthur Brooks9:03

       Super good

   24. JFJefferson Fisher9:04

       ... it, it, like, draws a different-

   25. ABArthur Brooks9:05

       Yeah

   26. JFJefferson Fisher9:05

       ... kind of connection in, in a way that just watching, like, a show together could never-

   27. ABArthur Brooks9:10

       Nothing

   28. JFJefferson Fisher9:10

       ... do.

   29. ABArthur Brooks9:10

       There's nothing like it. And, you know, it's, it's a very important thing that people in, in a religious marriage-

   30. JFJefferson Fisher9:15

       Mm-hmm
4. 10:17 – 15:22

   Men, women, and “hemispheric” differences in meaning and emotion

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:17

      I, I also find that there'll be... When you have these kind of conversations, you realize that there are thoughts, like for... I'll speak for me. There are thoughts that she's having that are way deeper-

   2. ABArthur Brooks10:27

      Mm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher10:27

      ... than my thoughts.

   4. ABArthur Brooks10:28

      Mm-hmm. [laughs]

   5. JFJefferson Fisher10:28

      And so sometimes I'm like, I, I gotta get my stuff together. Like, I-

   6. ABArthur Brooks10:31

      I know

   7. JFJefferson Fisher10:31

      ... she's thinking deep, and I'm thinking only two layers.

   8. ABArthur Brooks10:35

      [laughs] I know. It's funny because part of it is that, that one of the things that women don't understand about, you know, men, because you'll be silent and in thought, and she'll be like, "What's he thinking about? He's probably thinking about some other woman. He's probably thinking he doesn't love me so much." And you're thinking about how big would a bear have to be-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher10:49

      Yeah. [laughs]

   10. ABArthur Brooks10:49

       ... for me to beat that bear, you know? [laughs]

   11. JFJefferson Fisher10:51

       Yeah. [laughs] I'm, I'm serious.

   12. ABArthur Brooks10:53

       I know.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher10:53

       She'll, she'll ask me. She'll go, "What are you thinking about?" Uh, while we were driving, and I was like, "Honestly, I was looking at that sign, and I thought that L kinda looked a little funny," and I was like-

   14. ABArthur Brooks11:01

       [laughs]

   15. JFJefferson Fisher11:01

       ... "I wouldn't, I wouldn't have that L on that logo." Like, and she's like, "What?"

   16. ABArthur Brooks11:04

       [laughs] What's wrong with you?

   17. JFJefferson Fisher11:05

       Yeah.

   18. ABArthur Brooks11:05

       I was like, I was thinking about if I got a racing stripe on the car-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher11:09

       Yeah

   20. ABArthur Brooks11:09

       ... you know, what would it actually look... Something completely trivial.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher11:12

       Yeah.

   22. ABArthur Brooks11:12

       We're very simple. Men are actually emotionally simpler-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher11:15

       Yeah

   24. ABArthur Brooks11:15

       ... as a general rule than women are.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher11:17

       Yeah.

   26. ABArthur Brooks11:17

       And so when they talk deep- deeply about things, like, you know, what we're talking about, here's the meaning of life-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher11:22

       Right

   28. ABArthur Brooks11:22

       ... women are actually, they have more talent at understanding the meaning of life than men do. And part of that is just-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher11:27

       No doubt

   30. ABArthur Brooks11:27

       ... the way their brains work differently. Women have more developed right hemispheres of the brain, of their brains.
5. 15:22 – 22:02

   From competition to collaboration: careers, fairness, and evolved drives

   1. JFJefferson Fisher15:22

      Do you think that who you're married to also affects your career?

   2. ABArthur Brooks15:26

      A lot, yeah. A lot. I mean, one of the things that's really bad is when couples are competing professionally with each other.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher15:32

      Mm.

   4. ABArthur Brooks15:32

      And the way that you compete is you'll say something like, "I, I took care of the kids yesterday. Today's your turn." It's like, no. That's a, that's the wrong way of seeing things, obviously. And, you know, the truth is that the couples that are, that are the strongest are when you win, she wins, and when she wins, you win.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher15:47

      Yeah.

   6. ABArthur Brooks15:47

      As opposed to when he won, that means, you know, I didn't. And that's not the... That's the, obviously the wrong vantage that you want for. You need a collaborative relationship-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher15:56

      You want the team mentality

   8. ABArthur Brooks15:57

      ... not a competitive relationship. Yeah, for sure.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher15:58

      Yeah. I can definitely see where at times where it's whose job is more important.

   10. ABArthur Brooks16:03

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher16:04

       Well, okay, well, I have this on-

   12. ABArthur Brooks16:05

       Yeah

   13. JFJefferson Fisher16:06

       ... t- tomorrow night and you have that. Well, look, my, my stuff... And you start competing in a way that's gonna-

   14. ABArthur Brooks16:11

       Yeah, that's problematic

   15. JFJefferson Fisher16:12

       ... bad.

   16. ABArthur Brooks16:13

       It's a really, really problematic thing, for sure. And, you know, the truth is that there are issues like that, and fairness is really important.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher16:19

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ABArthur Brooks16:19

       Respect is really important, to be sure. But, you know, also men and women m- ha- do best when they recognize that they have significant differences that are ev- evolved differences.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher16:29

       Mm.

   20. ABArthur Brooks16:29

       You know, we're, w- our brains are, are in the current state as of about 250,000 years ago at the beginning of the late Pleistocene period. And, you know, that's when human beings lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals that were kin based and hierarchical. That's how all human beings lived, and our brains are, are, are, are, well, intrinsically, they're, they're built to live in, under those circumstances.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher16:51

       Hmm.

   22. ABArthur Brooks16:51

       Which explains a lot of the weird things that people actually do. It's like, why do we care so much about social comparison?

   23. JFJefferson Fisher16:56

       Yeah.

   24. ABArthur Brooks16:56

       Well, because we wanna rise hierarchically in the band. Why do we go insane on social media? Why would you check your mentions and, and, and drive yourself completely crazy? Because you're trying to rise in a band of 30 people, but you've expanded that to 300 million people-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher17:10

       Right

   26. ABArthur Brooks17:10

       ... or something, and you can't cope with that cognitively. But there are other things as well. So for example, um, biological females are... They have a big, uh, investment in rearing children-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher17:22

       Mm-hmm

   28. ABArthur Brooks17:22

       ... that we, we don't have, men don't have, at least not biologically. You know, we... [laughs]

   29. JFJefferson Fisher17:26

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ABArthur Brooks17:27

       The, the, the deed is done in a couple of minutes-
6. 22:02 – 23:33

   Busyness as the silent relationship killer (urgent vs important)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher22:02

      You said something a second ago that got my attention. You said that when you're, when you mess up and you're busy.

   2. ABArthur Brooks22:07

      Yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher22:08

      So how, how does busyness kill connection, especially in communication?

   4. ABArthur Brooks22:13

      It distracts you from the more important things. So that's the whole thing, as Stephen Covey used to talk about urgency and importance.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher22:19

      Hmm.

   6. ABArthur Brooks22:19

      So he would say that you, you attend to the urgent, but you neglect the important. And we all have urgent and important things in life, and urgent things distract you, and the important things must get done, but you can actually put them off.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher22:30

      Hmm.

   8. ABArthur Brooks22:30

      And you know, it's like your soulmate, she's not gonna... Like, you'd screw up and you come home a little bit late, or you're a little bit snippy with her or, you know, you're kind of a grump. She's not gonna divorce you for that.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher22:39

      Right.

   10. ABArthur Brooks22:40

       It's... Your, your marriage is way more important than your job. I mean, I know I can d- I can... Yeah.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher22:44

       Yeah.

   12. ABArthur Brooks22:44

       I know you agree, [laughs] right?

   13. JFJefferson Fisher22:46

       [laughs] Yeah. Yes, I do.

   14. ABArthur Brooks22:46

       It's way more important, right?

   15. JFJefferson Fisher22:48

       Yeah.

   16. ABArthur Brooks22:48

       Um, but it's not more urgent than your job sometimes.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher22:51

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ABArthur Brooks22:52

       And so urgent things are like pecking at you, and they're, they're, they're, they're-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher22:55

       Right. Right. Right

   20. ABArthur Brooks22:55

       ... they're harassing you all the time. And when your whole life is a series of urgent things, you're gonna neglect the important things, and that's why we actually do the things that we don't wanna do. We get into trouble.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher23:04

       I find that when I have some of the hardest conversations with people-

   22. ABArthur Brooks23:09

       Yeah

   23. JFJefferson Fisher23:09

       ... and my, my community's really around c- communication and conversations, that the harder-

   24. ABArthur Brooks23:14

       You're good at it, too.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher23:15

       Oh, same for you. Thank you.

   26. ABArthur Brooks23:16

       I mean, you're a... I mean, that's, that's a... You didn't know you were gonna be on the map of popular culture by doing what you do really, really well.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher23:22

       Thank you. No, you have no-

   28. ABArthur Brooks23:23

       Talking and arguing-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher23:24

       No

   30. ABArthur Brooks23:24

       ... and helping people understand and being persuasive.
7. 23:33 – 29:39

   Go deep or go home: friendship, self-disclosure, and the myth of being ‘uniquely broken’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher23:33

      It's the... I, I find that usually the... It, it corresponds that the harder the conversation about to have with somebody, the deeper we seem to connect.

   2. ABArthur Brooks23:47

      Right.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher23:47

      In other words, if I'm going through something really hard with somebody-

   4. ABArthur Brooks23:51

      Right

   5. JFJefferson Fisher23:51

      ... that we come out of it somehow closer when I, I, I wasn't expecting that.

   6. ABArthur Brooks23:56

      Right.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher23:56

      And I was curious if there was any science i- of, of what you do at Harvard that, and the happiness that might lead to say, hey, these are some things that unlock, you know, that depth of connection when you choose to say the hard thing.

   8. ABArthur Brooks24:07

      Uh, yeah, it can. And, and part of the reason is because you're actually digging into these big, more meaningful things. Um, so for example, um, one of the best ways for you to m- make friends quickly when you move to a new place, and, and you and I have some experience in this.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher24:25

      Yeah. [laughs]

   10. ABArthur Brooks24:25

       We move around a lot, right?

   11. JFJefferson Fisher24:26

       It's hard to make friends-

   12. ABArthur Brooks24:26

       Yeah, yeah

   13. JFJefferson Fisher24:27

       ... as an adult.

   14. ABArthur Brooks24:28

       Pretend you've been there for 10 years.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher24:30

       Okay.

   16. ABArthur Brooks24:30

       Pretend you've already been there for 10 years, and that means two weeks after you get there, you start inviting people over to your house. Don't wait for them to invite them, the- and, and that's for that, it, after one month start a Bible study.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher24:40

       Yeah.

   18. ABArthur Brooks24:40

       At your house.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher24:41

       Yeah.

   20. ABArthur Brooks24:41

       Start a book club.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher24:42

       Mm.

   22. ABArthur Brooks24:42

       Whatever your thing is, do that, right? And when you have people over, don't waste time on the nonsense. Go straight to the, sh- go, go deep or go home.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher24:51

       Mm.

   24. ABArthur Brooks24:52

       Right? And so ask questions like when you're having dinner with somebody, and you're always, like, "What are you most afraid of?"

   25. JFJefferson Fisher24:57

       Yeah, that kind of stuff.

   26. ABArthur Brooks24:58

       That kind of stuff, you know, is what it comes... And some people can't handle it. I mean, it's like, eh, this is one of the things that, my, I'm married to a Spaniard.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher25:04

       Yeah.

   28. ABArthur Brooks25:04

       And so they're not afraid of deep conversations.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher25:06

       They're Barcelona, right? Yeah, yeah.

   30. ABArthur Brooks25:06

       Yeah, from Barcelona. And a lot of Americans they don't, like, it doesn't feel polite in the whole thing, but it's like, it, it, you know, if you're uncomfortable-
8. 29:39 – 53:47

   Hurry, boredom, and meaning: why the ‘monkey mind’ blocks purpose

   1. ABArthur Brooks29:39

      So, so w- your life has changed a lot in the last five years, right? Is that fair to say?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher29:45

      Quite a bit. Yeah, that's fair to say.

   3. ABArthur Brooks29:46

      What are you most afraid of?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher29:48

      I'm, right now I'm most afraid of that I am not devoting enough time to making sure that I can be as present as humanly possible.

   5. ABArthur Brooks29:56

      With?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher29:57

      My kids.

   7. ABArthur Brooks29:57

      With your kids?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher29:58

      And family this year.

   9. ABArthur Brooks29:58

      And your wife?

   10. JFJefferson Fisher29:59

       Yeah.

   11. ABArthur Brooks29:59

       And with God?

   12. JFJefferson Fisher30:00

       And God, yeah.

   13. ABArthur Brooks30:01

       Yeah.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher30:01

       There's a lot of time where it's... I, I, I read this book. I really like it. It's, uh, The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry.

   15. ABArthur Brooks30:08

       Oh, nice.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher30:09

       John, John Mark, uh-

   17. ABArthur Brooks30:10

       Yeah

   18. JFJefferson Fisher30:10

       ... Comer is his name. Have you read-

   19. ABArthur Brooks30:11

       I haven't

   20. JFJefferson Fisher30:12

       ... any of him?

   21. ABArthur Brooks30:12

       I haven't, no.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher30:12

       Okay. There's him, John Ortberg. These two authors I really like, and it's about how, you know, the instruction is you, he, the instruction was to li- He lays me down in green pastures, right?

   23. ABArthur Brooks30:26

       Yeah.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher30:26

       It's not he signs me up for a half-marathon.

   25. ABArthur Brooks30:28

       Mm.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher30:29

       You know, it's not like, how do I just rest and not find ways? I'm just hurrying all the time, and I talked about this. You and I were saying how we just, y- you will talk about things that are in your- ... lectures and I talk to alone to myself and my camera. And one of the things I was really struggling with is how much hurry and busy just creep. They just, they creep into everything, and then I, I get to where it, it, it just has a way of shutting-

   27. ABArthur Brooks30:57

       Yeah

   28. JFJefferson Fisher30:57

       ... me off if I don't... I know you, you talk about be bored.

   29. ABArthur Brooks31:01

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JFJefferson Fisher31:01

       You know, finding ways to just sit because it's not enough now.
9. 53:47 – 1:03:58

   The doom loop and digital addiction: detoxing your brain to recover meaning

   1. JFJefferson Fisher53:47

      I wanna... First I wanna understand the, the doom loop-

   2. ABArthur Brooks53:51

      Mm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher53:51

      ... that you talk about-

   4. ABArthur Brooks53:52

      Mm-hmm

   5. JFJefferson Fisher53:52

      ... in, in your book, which is fantastic, and then the other element of this that I, I'm gonna wanna bring it back to is can somebody... Have you seen, like, The Big Lebowski?

   6. ABArthur Brooks54:03

      Yeah.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher54:03

      Okay, like, the, just the Dude. He's just, you know, there.

   8. ABArthur Brooks54:06

      Yeah, the Dude.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher54:06

      The, the people that seem to not be these big striders-

   10. ABArthur Brooks54:10

       Yeah

   11. JFJefferson Fisher54:10

       ... strivers-

   12. ABArthur Brooks54:11

       Yeah

   13. JFJefferson Fisher54:12

       ... versus the people that actually are.

   14. ABArthur Brooks54:13

       Yeah.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher54:13

       Like, these people are, don't struggle as much with the meaning of life, I feel like, and the ones that are ambitious-

   16. ABArthur Brooks54:19

       Yeah

   17. JFJefferson Fisher54:19

       ... try to be super successful, they're the ones that struggle so much with-

   18. ABArthur Brooks54:22

       Yeah

   19. JFJefferson Fisher54:22

       ... what's the meaning of it all.

   20. ABArthur Brooks54:23

       What's the meaning of life?

   21. JFJefferson Fisher54:24

       Yeah.

   22. ABArthur Brooks54:24

       It's funny, isn't it?

   23. JFJefferson Fisher54:25

       Yeah.

   24. ABArthur Brooks54:25

       It's really funny, and, and you wouldn't think that. You know, when I do these interviews with young people, um, you find that college graduates and people who are doing really well, they'll often say, "I have everything, and I feel nothing," and they're really guilty about it.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher54:39

       [clears throat]

   26. ABArthur Brooks54:39

       And what you find is that college graduates have, struggle more with meaning than people who didn't go to college. People who are earning more money-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher54:45

       Yeah

   28. ABArthur Brooks54:45

       ... struggle more with meaning than people who make less money that we find. It's an affliction of the privileged.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher54:50

       Affliction of the p- privileged.

   30. ABArthur Brooks54:51

       That's, that's actually the psychogenic epidemic that's, you're most likely to, to catch the disease when you have this. And the reason for this is actually that our culture of grinding and hustle, and most notably, we're the tip of the spear, is in a, is a constant use of technology. It, it induces strivers to use their brains in exactly the wrong way. So when you think about it, and it's like, you know, your, you know, the- Your great-grandfather
10. 1:03:58 – 1:06:48

    ‘Never waste your struggle’: suffering as a doorway to meaning

    1. ABArthur Brooks1:03:58

       What's that?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher1:03:59

       And that is, you said, "Never waste your struggle."

    3. ABArthur Brooks1:04:02

       Yeah.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:03

       Why, why should we never waste our struggle?

    5. ABArthur Brooks1:04:06

       So the, there's a basic scientific point, but a lot of it's really, it comes down to a lot of us who have religious convictions will understand naturally as well.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:14

       Yeah.

    7. ABArthur Brooks1:04:14

       So unhappiness, which is different than happiness. It's not the absence of happiness. Happiness and unhappiness, which are usually registered through the emotions that we feel.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:24

       Mm.

    9. ABArthur Brooks1:04:25

       All of our emotions exist for a reason. Your negative emotions exist to give you alarms about what's going on in the outside world, and if you didn't have them, you'd get run over by a car immediately.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:33

        Yeah.

    11. ABArthur Brooks1:04:33

        You need fear.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:34

        Yes.

    13. ABArthur Brooks1:04:34

        You need anger. You need disgust.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:36

        Mm-hmm.

    15. ABArthur Brooks1:04:36

        You need sadness. You need these negative emotions, but they're largely processed in the right hemisphere of the brain, which is the same part of the brain where you assess mystery and meaning. And that's one of the reasons that people will say, "I found the meaning of my life when I had cancer."

    16. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:50

        Hmm.

    17. ABArthur Brooks1:04:50

        "I found a great deal of the meaning of my life, I understood the meaning of my life more when I lost my mom."

    18. JFJefferson Fisher1:04:55

        Hmm.

    19. ABArthur Brooks1:04:56

        "When I lost my business." The saddest times, the most difficult times in people's lives is when they learn the most. This is also the reason that you and I, as Christian men, that we worship a man who's suffering and dying.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:08

        Yes.

    21. ABArthur Brooks1:05:09

        The meaning of my life-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:10

        Mm-hmm

    23. ABArthur Brooks1:05:11

        ... is my relationship with God.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:13

        Mm-hmm.

    25. ABArthur Brooks1:05:13

        This is the s- the central part of the meaning of my life, and I worship a God made manifest in humanity, suffering and dying on a device of torture.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:22

        Hmm.

    27. ABArthur Brooks1:05:23

        That's super heavy.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:24

        [laughs] It's very heavy.

    29. ABArthur Brooks1:05:25

        That's crazy by worldly standards.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:27

        [laughs] Yeah.
11. 1:06:48 – 1:18:47

    Pain vs suffering: lowering resistance, surrender, and daily practice

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:48

       It, it has to have this daily ha- I mean, so how does that show up in conversation?

    2. ABArthur Brooks1:06:53

       Yeah.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:53

       That means, all right, you won't tell me I'm wrong? All right, that's okay.

    4. ABArthur Brooks1:06:56

       Yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:56

       You know?

    6. ABArthur Brooks1:06:57

       Uh-huh.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:57

       You, you wanna cut me off and merge right in front of me?

    8. ABArthur Brooks1:07:00

       Yeah.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:00

       You know what? Go right ahead.

    10. ABArthur Brooks1:07:01

        Yeah.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:01

        It's like if... And it's not a, a place of being deferential.

    12. ABArthur Brooks1:07:04

        Yeah.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:05

        It's, to me, a higher presence- ... of just being in awe of-

    14. ABArthur Brooks1:07:11

        Yeah

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:11

        ... I, I, I'm, I can exist and still feel like I'm every bit as present as I can-

    16. ABArthur Brooks1:07:18

        Yeah

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:19

        ... as I can be.

    18. ABArthur Brooks1:07:20

        Yeah. So there's a formula for what you just said.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:22

        Oh, good. I, I hope that you have one.

    20. ABArthur Brooks1:07:23

        That, you, you spoke it very el- eloquently. And the formula actually comes from a lot of different philosophical traditions, but here's how the Buddhists put it.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:30

        Okay.

    22. ABArthur Brooks1:07:30

        But, but it's completely consistent with our Christian faith, too.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:32

        Mm-hmm.

    24. ABArthur Brooks1:07:33

        And, and any real philosophy. Suffering and pain are not the same thing. Pain happens to you, because things happen to you.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:40

        Mm.

    26. ABArthur Brooks1:07:40

        You know, pain, physical pain, which we call sensory pain, you put your hand on a hot stove, you break your arm.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:45

        Mm-hmm.

    28. ABArthur Brooks1:07:46

        That's inflammation and nerve endings, and it's processed in a certain part of the brain. Affective pain is the second part where you're like, "I don't like that."

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:53

        [laughs]

    30. ABArthur Brooks1:07:54

        That's a different part of the brain is actually where that happens, called the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex-
12. 1:18:47 – 1:27:10

    Imposter syndrome, aging, and emotional self-management

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:47

       I wanna take us now to this aspect of leaning into imposter syndrome.

    2. ABArthur Brooks1:18:53

       Yeah. [laughs] You got a little of that these days?

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:55

       Yeah. I, I don't know who doesn't.

    4. ABArthur Brooks1:18:56

       [laughs]

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:56

       I don't know who doesn't.

    6. ABArthur Brooks1:18:57

       Well, as you get older, it's different. You'll see.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:00

       Tell me.

    8. ABArthur Brooks1:19:01

       Well, [sighs] um, emotional self-management gets much easier and your p- personality changes as you get older. And this is not just from experience. This is as a researcher I say this, but also from experience because I'm not 37 anymore. I remember being 37, feels like nine minutes ago, but I'm 61.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:17

       What, what age do you see yourself, like, when you look in the mirror?

    10. ABArthur Brooks1:19:20

        Uh.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:20

        What's... Like, when people ask you how old you are, what's the age you first go to?

    12. ABArthur Brooks1:19:24

        Well, it sort of depends. I'm in better physical shape than when I was in my 20s. ... so I feel better. Now, it's not because I was, you know, horribly out of shape, but, you know, I kinda smoked, I drank a lot, and-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:34

        Mm-hmm

    14. ABArthur Brooks1:19:34

        ... and I was a musician, and y- I just didn't take care of myself.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:38

        Mm-hmm.

    16. ABArthur Brooks1:19:38

        And now I take really, really good care of myself. I'm, I'm, my emotional acuity and my intellectual acumen are higher in a lot of ways-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:47

        Yeah

    18. ABArthur Brooks1:19:47

        ... than they were because I'm a cl- I'm a more linear thinker.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:49

        Yeah.

    20. ABArthur Brooks1:19:49

        I'm also working all day long to get points across in ways that I hope people can understand.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:55

        Right.

    22. ABArthur Brooks1:19:55

        You know, even though I'm, you know, I'm an academic, I'm trying not to, you know, bury everybody under a bunch of, you know- [laughs]

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:01

        Yeah

    24. ABArthur Brooks1:20:02

        ... uh, incomprehensible science is, is, is how this works. And so the truth of the matter is that I see myself as a lot younger because I'm better at certain things than I was when I was younger. Um-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:12

        My dad, my dad will, will always say, he's, "I'll look in the mirror and say, 'Who's that old man?'"

    26. ABArthur Brooks1:20:16

        I know, but... And that's when I look in the mirror is when I actually see it because I don't look like I'm 37 anymore. If I were-

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:21

        Mm-hmm

    28. ABArthur Brooks1:20:21

        ... if I, if, you know, if I were actually 37 and I looked like this, you'd be like-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:24

        [laughs]

    30. ABArthur Brooks1:20:25

        ... "You gotta go to the doctor."
13. 1:27:10 – 1:30:16

    Dark triad warning signs: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:10

       And I know you've, you know, you talked too about, like, the dark triad.

    2. ABArthur Brooks1:27:13

       Oh, yeah. [laughs]

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:14

       Right? And how that, like-

    4. ABArthur Brooks1:27:15

       They're not good at this.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:16

       It's a... Right. And so it, like-

    6. ABArthur Brooks1:27:17

       They don't have imposter syndrome.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:19

       Yeah. And so that's what, um, I, when I came across that body of work of yours, I, I had to [laughs] I had to, like, go for a walk of like, I wanna make sure that-

    8. ABArthur Brooks1:27:29

       You're not

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:30

       ... I'm doing everything-

    10. ABArthur Brooks1:27:31

        If you're worrying-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:31

        Right

    12. ABArthur Brooks1:27:31

        ... about it, you're not.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:32

        Okay. [laughs] All right, good.

    14. ABArthur Brooks1:27:33

        No.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:34

        Okay.

    16. ABArthur Brooks1:27:34

        There's a test on my website, by the way.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:35

        Oh, okay, good.

    18. ABArthur Brooks1:27:35

        I've got a whole battery of tests-

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:37

        Oh

    20. ABArthur Brooks1:27:37

        ... that people can actually take about, you know, their affect profile and their general happiness level.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:41

        Okay.

    22. ABArthur Brooks1:27:41

        It's called the happiness scale. But I also have, I have a-

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:43

        Okay. Uh, tell them, what's your website?

    24. ABArthur Brooks1:27:44

        Uh, arthurbrooks.com.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:45

        Perfect. All right.

    26. ABArthur Brooks1:27:46

        Yeah. And, uh, and people can go there and take a test and see, you know, their dark triad characteristics or the person they're dating.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:27:53

        Ah.

    28. ABArthur Brooks1:27:54

        Which is really important, especially for women, because women are magnetized to dark triads. There are, there's a category of men that's really good at, at looking like they're falling in love when they're actually not.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:28:05

        Can you te- like, uh, uh, for the-

    30. ABArthur Brooks1:28:07

        I should define dark triad, right?
14. 1:30:16 – 1:34:04

    Routine vs adventure in family life: managing expectations as life stays ‘stochastic’

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:30:16

       ... like attorneys. Well, I definitely say that it's somewhere in law all, all over the place. I wanna, um, I wanna ask you this last question, and it's, it's one that's personal, uh, for me and my family. Uh, we're always in this season as young kids, and I know other people listening have young kids or grandparents-

    2. ABArthur Brooks1:30:36

       Mm-hmm

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:30:36

       ... or grandkids. And Sierra, my wife, her thing is, like, she wants to have a routine, and we're just in this stage where every week is different, and it's... She always says, "W- once this happens-

    4. ABArthur Brooks1:30:50

       Right

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:30:50

       ... you know, we're gonna settle into a routine."

    6. ABArthur Brooks1:30:52

       Right.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:30:52

       "Once this is over-

    8. ABArthur Brooks1:30:53

       Right

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:30:53

       ... things are gonna calm down."

    10. ABArthur Brooks1:30:54

        Right.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:30:55

        And my position is, no, this is just life.

    12. ABArthur Brooks1:30:57

        Right.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:30:57

        This is. This, there is no, like-

    14. ABArthur Brooks1:30:59

        Yeah.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:00

        And so I'm curious what kind of either research or thoughts that, as been married for 34 years-

    16. ABArthur Brooks1:31:05

        Yeah

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:05

        ... you know, w- what have you seen?

    18. ABArthur Brooks1:31:08

        The only thing you can count on is change.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:10

        Yeah.

    20. ABArthur Brooks1:31:10

        That's really what it comes down to, for sure. Now, routine actually does get easier the older your kids are, because you can actually get into a more stable, stable routine, for sure. But one of the things that you find typically in couples is that one partner doesn't want routine. One partner's actually incredibly allergic to routine. [laughs] It's probably you.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:30

        Yeah. [laughs] It's me.

    22. ABArthur Brooks1:31:31

        It's probably you-

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:31

        Yeah

    24. ABArthur Brooks1:31:31

        ... because, you know, you're probably an adventure freak.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:34

        Yeah.

    26. ABArthur Brooks1:31:34

        You're probably somebody who needs a lot of stimulus 'cause you're highly open to experience, and people who are open to experience, they don't like routines that much.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:40

        Yeah.

    28. ABArthur Brooks1:31:40

        It's like I... You probably like traveling. You probably like seeing things. I mean, I get it.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:31:45

        Yeah.

    30. ABArthur Brooks1:31:45

        It's just like a hotel-
15. 1:34:04 – 1:38:10

    The life-changing conversation Brooks overheard: fame, regret, and peace at the end

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:34:04

       I wanna a- ask you a question I always ask every, every guest, and, um, and take all the time you need. What is one conversation that you can remember that has changed the direction of your life?

    2. ABArthur Brooks1:34:16

       A conversation that changed the course of my life was not one that I had, but it was one that I witnessed.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:34:24

       Hm.

    4. ABArthur Brooks1:34:25

       Um, I wrote this book called From Strength to Strength, and, and I tell the story at the beginning of that book because it was the reason I wrote that book. And that book was really a turning point in my life based on that conversation. I was on a plane, um, which I'm always on a plane.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:34:42

       Yeah.

    6. ABArthur Brooks1:34:42

       You know. Flying from LA to Washington, and it was, it was nighttime. It wasn't a night flight, but it was like 11:00 at night, and it was dark, and I heard a conversation behind me, in the row right behind me. And I could tell by their voices it was a man and a woman. I could tell by their voices that they were old. Not just elderly, old.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:35:01

       Hm.

    8. ABArthur Brooks1:35:01

       80s. And I figured they were a married couple. And I couldn't quite make out his words, he was kind of mumbling, but her words were really clear, and her voice was penetrating and coming right through the seats.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:35:13

       [laughs]

    10. ABArthur Brooks1:35:14

        So I heard, "Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha." And then she said, "Oh, don't say it would be better if you were dead."

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:35:20

        Mm-hmm.

    12. ABArthur Brooks1:35:21

        And then I heard, "Ha, ha, ha, ha." [laughs]

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:35:23

        Yeah.

    14. ABArthur Brooks1:35:23

        And she says, "It's not true that nobody cares about you and nobody loves you anymore."

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:35:27

        Mm.

    16. ABArthur Brooks1:35:28

        "That nobody remembers you. It's not true." You know, and I'm a behavioral scientist, so I'm, I'm putting, you know, a story together in my head.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:35:35

        Mm.

    18. ABArthur Brooks1:35:35

        And I figure this is a guy who's in his 80s, and time's almost up, and he didn't have the life that he wanted. He's not you. He didn't take a bite out of life, man. He didn't actually build the career that he wanted. He didn't take every opportunity, and now it's too late.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:35:50

        Mm.

    20. ABArthur Brooks1:35:50

        And the world's passed him by and forgotten. He probably was never remembered in the first place. And they finished their conversation, and at the end of the flight, which was an hour later or so, um, the lights went on and everybody stood up, and I wanted to get a look at the, you know, the old man that his loving wife had just been telling him convenient lies.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:36:08

        Yeah.

    22. ABArthur Brooks1:36:09

        And it was one of the most famous men in the world.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:36:12

        No way.

    24. ABArthur Brooks1:36:12

        This is somebody that everybody watching and listening to us right now knows.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:36:15

        Hm.

    26. ABArthur Brooks1:36:15

        Not personally-

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:36:16

        Yeah

    28. ABArthur Brooks1:36:17

        ... but he's so famous for what he did. And this guy is not just some actor or politician. This is somebody with a small group of dedicated individuals in the 1960s and 1970s changed the course of history.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:36:30

        Wow.

    30. ABArthur Brooks1:36:31

        And, and I heard him telling his wife that he might as well be dead because nobody remembers him, because the good days were in the past-

Episode duration: 1:38:10