How I Learned The Power for a Single Word in a Conversation | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 1:16

   Trial-lawyer lineage and a family built on words

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Your personal story deeply fascinates me. So I wonder if you could tell me about eight-year-old Jefferson-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:09

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker0:09

      ... and that weekend when you fell asleep with beef biltong-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:14

      Oh [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker0:14

      ... in your hands.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:15

      Yeah. Uh, so I am a fifth-generation trial attorney, and I'm talking my great-grandfather was a federal judge. His father was an attorney. Grandfather was a DA, county attorney. Dad's an attorney. I have cousins, great uncles, cousins, you name it, trial attorneys. I w- I mean, there are people I know that have lots of doctors in their family. There's not a doctor in our family.

   7. SPSpeaker0:39

      [laughs]

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:39

      There's nobody... I mean, we can't-- we couldn't build a shed to help our lives.

   9. SPSpeaker0:45

      [laughs]

   10. JFJefferson Fisher0:45

       You know what I mean? So all, all we do is know how to blow hot air.

   11. SPSpeaker0:49

       [laughs]

   12. JFJefferson Fisher0:49

       And, uh, yeah, so that's... I, I grew up in that kind of lifestyle. So every year we'd, we'd go on a trip, and I was the oldest of my generation, so I was the first great-grandson of the, the judge. And of course, when you're there, it's don't be talking, don't... It, it is still the, the men's retreat here, so it was much better if I was just quiet, which I had no problem. I was-

2. 1:16 – 2:02

   The first ‘men’s retreat’ trip: belonging, pride, and one-on-one time with dad

   1. SPSpeaker1:16

      It's the first one you'd been invited to.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher1:17

      Yeah, it was the first one I was invited to, and I thought I was on top of the world. I mean, I thought I was so big. I thought I was so grown. It was about a seven-and-a-half-hour car ride with my dad, which that in and of itself was the most alone time I'd ever had with my dad.

   3. SPSpeaker1:34

      Wow.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher1:34

      Um, and so being able to have that, 'cause always my siblings, and y- as a oldest child and having siblings, you never really had one-on-one time with your, with your parents. And so to have that trip with him, uh, those are some of also my very, very special memories. And getting there, being in that space, yeah, I, I like to say I thought I was called up to the big leagues. I mean, I thought I couldn't have been more of a big kid.

   5. SPSpeaker2:01

      And you were eight?

3. 2:02 – 3:55

   The night of courtroom stories: discovering the spell of storytelling

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:02

      I was eight. I was eight, and so I will never forget the first night we're there, and I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know if we're gonna turn on the TV. I, I, I, I don't even know what was gonna happen. So we're eating dinner, and then we're all in this main room. It was kind of a combined kitchen and, and living room space, and I'm in the corner just eating my, I, you called it, uh, we call it beef jerky.

   2. SPSpeaker2:25

      Okay.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher2:26

      Okay, yeah. And I'll never forget, my grandfather, my dad's dad, just kind of sat down his plate and goes, "Not too long ago, I was having this, uh, guy who came over and this client of mine," and he starts telling a story. And I just remember stopping and going, "Oh, he's, he's telling, he's telling a story." Okay, I'm kind of listening. This is the first experience I've ever had of that. And then everybody at the punchline erupts in laughter, and then somebody else, another cousin, you know, "I had this, another client, there's one time where one time I, I had this case, or one time I was in front of this judge, and he said..." And they start telling stories, and it was courtroom story after courtroom story, and I'm just in awe. I mean-

   4. SPSpeaker3:07

      Mm-hmm

   5. JFJefferson Fisher3:07

      ... it felt like I had seen a magic show. It, it was like going to the movies for the very first time of what, like what is this? And in some sense, it felt like a- as these are all, all family. These are all Fishers, and I'm going, "Oh, this is my life. This is my inheritance. This is my family. This is-"

   6. SPSpeaker3:31

      Mm.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher3:32

      And it immediately became that a part of our identity as a family was the storytelling, this advocacy of using their voice, and they were, they were wonderful storytellers, all trial attorneys. And so to be able to just see that as a young kid, I mean, w- that's all they did every night was tell stories.

4. 3:55 – 4:59

   ‘Communication was the true family passion’—making meaning of the tradition

   1. SPSpeaker3:55

      Yeah, I think you say-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:55

      That was it

   3. SPSpeaker3:55

      ... something really powerful in the introduction about-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:58

      Yeah

   5. SPSpeaker3:58

      ... that weekend. Yeah, here it is.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher4:00

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker4:00

      "I realized with each year gone by that law was only the family profession. Communication was the true family passion."

   8. JFJefferson Fisher4:08

      Correct.

   9. SPSpeaker4:09

      I, I found that just so evocative.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher4:11

       Yeah. [laughs] Wonderful.

   11. SPSpeaker4:11

       I just, you know, just y- you paint that beautiful story in the introduction, and I was trying to imagine you in this old building and just you all gathered around and your eyes just in awe as your granddad's-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher4:22

       Yeah

   13. SPSpeaker4:22

       ... was it your granddad or your great-granddad telling the story?

   14. JFJefferson Fisher4:24

       It, it was my great-grandfather first, and then, then eventually it was my great-grandfather, but they all just traded stories. And it was, it was, uh, y- you know how in certain styles of music, every instrument kind of takes a turn-

   15. SPSpeaker4:36

       Yeah

   16. JFJefferson Fisher4:36

       ... right, of like a solo maybe in jazz and lots of different styles of bluegrass. It was very much like that. Everybody kind of began to share their own story, and it became natural. It was without pauses, and it was still laughter, and it was... I, it, I've never experienced that just eyes-opening wonder of seeing that.

5. 4:59 – 6:12

   One word can change outcomes: the craft behind influence

   1. SPSpeaker4:59

      Looking back now as a successful trial lawyer, as a successful podcaster, as a-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher5:05

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker5:06

      ... best-selling author, what do you think that weekend taught you?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher5:13

      Hmm. It, it, it taught me the magic and power of, of words in a way I've never felt or seen before, of how one word can really shift an entire outcome. You've ever heard somebody tell a joke, and it was simply the way they told it just wasn't that funny?

   5. SPSpeaker5:34

      Yes.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher5:34

      But you have other people who could retell that same joke, and maybe it's their timing. Maybe it's their inflection, their tone, the way they can use their voice like, uh, an artist would use a paintbrush that paints an entirely different picture, and there are great artists, and there are artists that just, uh, they, they couldn't draw you a house.

   7. SPSpeaker5:54

      Mm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher5:54

      And so it was, it was a master class through every year that I went- Of the power of words and the art of communication and how you can capture people and create outcomes that, that lead to better things.

6. 6:12 – 8:29

   Why humans need communication—and why we still struggle with it

   1. SPSpeaker6:12

      Yeah. Is communication something that is innate in human beings, right? Let's imagine human beings 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SPSpeaker6:27

      Is our ability to communicate one of the things that makes us human? And if so, why is it today so many of us struggle and hence need a book like yours to teach us how to do it?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher6:42

      Communication is, is what creates the connection in humans. Y- you can communicate with words, you can communicate with no words. You might have the absence of sound, but that's not always the absence of communication. I, I say that our ability to communicate's what separates us, and I have a show, um, this is probably my guilty pleasure show. When I'm reading, I like to have something on, and it's the show Alone on Netflix. It's like they send people out to the wilderness out in Alaska or something-

   5. SPSpeaker7:17

      [laughs]

   6. JFJefferson Fisher7:17

      ... and just see how long they can do. And these people who have survival skills, they can last for months out there-

   7. SPSpeaker7:22

      Hmm

   8. JFJefferson Fisher7:22

      ... if they want. But they always tap out, meaning they, they go, "I don't wanna be here anymore." Not because they don't have the ability. It's because they miss humans. They miss the sound of other humans, the people in their life. Even people that they may not even have that great of a relationship with when they left, they start to miss. They start to... We- we're not meant to be alone.

   9. SPSpeaker7:44

      Hmm.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher7:45

       It's not healthy. It, it is not good. It wasn't good for man to be alone. It's not good for-

   11. SPSpeaker7:49

       Hmm

   12. JFJefferson Fisher7:50

       ... humans to be alone. And I feel very compelled in that the words that you use is what's determinative of the life you want to lead. If you wanna change, if you're listening and you go, "I don't really like where I'm at in life right now," you can change it, and you don't need to buy a, a new software. You don't need to ha- buy, have a new company slogan. It's, it is just the decision to have a new conversation with yourself and with others. You, you choose the words you want to choose the life that you want to, to lead. It really just begins with the power of, of what you say.

7. 8:29 – 10:34

   Three principles: control, confidence, and connection

   1. SPSpeaker8:29

      Your book has these three core principles of how we can communicate better and have better conversations, right? Say it with control, say it with confidence, and say it to connect.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:40

      That's right.

   3. SPSpeaker8:41

      Can you go through those three things step by step and help us understand what exactly they mean and also how we can start to apply them when we're having conversations?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

      Rule one is say it with control, and what that is in a nutshell is rather than trying to control the other person when you're having a difficult conversation, which is typically the default. That's our, our gut urge is to control you. Where you actually find success is controlling yourself. So instead of trying to control them, what you do is control yourself. That's gonna begin always a better conversation. Two is saying it with confidence, meaning how to find your assertive voice. People often feel like confidence is something they need to have before the conversation. They're saying, "Well, I'm, I'm kind of working up the confidence to s- to say this." That's wrong. Confidence is not what you have before the conversation. Confidence is the outcome. It's a feeling. It's the same thing if, if I said, "Hey, look, I need you to be sad right now, sad as you've ever been, with me right now." There wouldn't be anything to trigger that-

   5. SPSpeaker9:46

      Hmm

   6. JFJefferson Fisher9:46

      ... to force that. Or if I said, "I need you to be mad right now," you, there's nothing to do that.

   7. SPSpeaker9:51

      Hmm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher9:51

      But if I were to hit you in the shoulder out of nowhere, you might be... Now you can be mad. Why? 'Cause it came from something. How you create the confidence is using your assertive voice. So I, I teach confidence is as assertive does. Three, rule three is you say it to connect. Connection is two components. There's understanding and acknowledgement. I can understand you if you say something, but if I don't acknowledge you, you're not gonna feel connected to me. At the same time, if I can acknowledge you, but I don't really understand it-

   9. SPSpeaker10:22

      Mm-hmm

   10. JFJefferson Fisher10:22

       ... I'm not gonna connect with you. And so you have to have these two components of understanding and, and creating connection in conversation by saying what you mean and meaning what you say.

8. 10:34 – 12:34

   Internal vs. external control: nervous system state shapes how we interpret words

   1. SPSpeaker10:34

      Yeah. You know, as you were describing control there, for me, looking at it a different way, it was internal v. external, right? So in general in life, we have limited control on externalities. We've got a lot more control on what's going on internally.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher10:54

      Right.

   3. SPSpeaker10:55

      And therefore, if we apply that to what you just said, you know, if you're trying to control somebody else-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher11:01

      Mm-hmm

   5. SPSpeaker11:01

      ... or manipulate what they say, right, you're, you're... You know, that is actually outside your control. Now, you may argue that if you can communicate well and calmly and in a-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher11:12

      Yeah

   7. SPSpeaker11:12

      ... grounded fashion, you are actually influencing what they say, which is very clear from your work. But I love the idea that it's about gaining control over ourselves. Because I guess another way of looking at it, or I'd love your perspective on this, is it's clear to me that we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? So if we're stressed, we're gonna interpret emails a certain way, right? So people, for example, if they've had a well-rested weekend, right, they've not worked, and they've switched off, and they've done whatever with their family, they can read an email on Monday morning and be pretty calm when they-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher11:53

      Yeah

   9. SPSpeaker11:54

      ... read it. They could read that same email on a Friday afternoon after a busy week at work and interpret the email completely differently. The email hasn't changed. What's changed is the state of their nervous system, and I kind of feel that applies to communication whereby- You're gonna communicate, and you do write about this, you're gonna communicate in a way that reflects the state of your nervous system. So if you're busy, stressed, tired, that, unless you have a high degree of self-awareness-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher12:26

       Right

   11. SPSpeaker12:26

       ... it's gonna come out through your voice.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher12:27

       Yes.

   13. SPSpeaker12:28

       Right? So that thing about control is, like, this is about self-awareness and controlling ourselves, right?

9. 12:34 – 14:37

   Why we compete in disagreements—and how calm becomes leadership

   1. JFJefferson Fisher12:34

      Right. It is this sense of anytime we have disagreement, have that friction, the dissonance in a conversation, we quickly return to this state of competition. We wanna win, and we see it as a, a threat. Any little opinion that is different from our own, our body likes to treat it as a, as a threat. We go, "No, no, no, no. That's not... They need to agree with me," 'cause if not, then it doesn't feel comfortable. If not, then it feels like they're trying to undermine me. They're saying I'm wrong. I don't like to be wrong. I'm not wrong. And we start to try and control that narrative. "No, no, no, I need to say something so compelling that you're gonna have to agree with me," or, "I'm gonna say something that is so snappy, so, um, clap back, so powerful that you're gonna go, 'Oh my gosh, you're so right. How could I ever imagine any other opinion than the one that you have?'"

   2. SPSpeaker13:26

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher13:26

      And so we try and, and, and force that. Now, that's, that's where we go wrong, is we try and force and control that conversation. Instead, when you start to control yourself, you, you also sound like you're in control, and those who sound like they're in control are the ones that are listened to, and the ones that are-

   4. SPSpeaker13:43

      Mm

   5. JFJefferson Fisher13:43

      ... that lead. These are the ones that have the calm energy that people go, "I don't know what they have, but I like it." That, you know what? That sounds more reasonable. That's what's wild to me, is you say, what, what sounds reasonable? It's typically the person who just sounds with their voice more reasonable versus somebody who... Th- the words matter far less to me than the way that you sound and the way that you make people feel. That's, that's the heart of the, the communication.

   6. SPSpeaker14:17

      Yeah. Now, what you just said was super powerful, right? So I imagine some people are gonna hear that and be thinking about the last disagreement they had with their partner-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher14:32

      Yeah

   8. SPSpeaker14:32

      ... or their spouse, right? That's often where people go to, or their parents, whatever it might be.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher14:37

      Mm-hmm.

10. 14:37 – 17:45

    A practical reset in conflict: breath first, then respond

    1. SPSpeaker14:37

       Right? And what I love about how you teach this in this chapter is you talk about this three-step process, right? Your first word is your breath. Your first thought is a quick scan, and your first conversation is a small talk.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher14:56

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker14:56

       Can we focus a little bit on breathing through the lens of conflict and communication and the importance of the breath when we're communicating?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher15:06

       Yeah. Anybody who's listening and loves your podcast, which you have an amazing podcast, by the way, is that the breath, they're familiar with that. They, they know the benefits of it. What I'm going to encourage them to do is understand the benefits of in your, your actual conversation, how you can use the breath in your communication to lead to better outcomes. What happens in disagreements is we tend to hold our breath. In fact, I would even be willing to say that a lot of people hold their breath more than they think.

    5. SPSpeaker15:35

       [laughs]

    6. JFJefferson Fisher15:35

       They might be very stressed out. Maybe they're overwhelmed at work. They're scrolling through emails. Or listening to a... You might be listening to us right now while you're driving, and you're worried about your workday, and you're holding your breath-

    7. SPSpeaker15:47

       Mm

    8. JFJefferson Fisher15:47

       ... without you thinking about it. And what happens? It puts you in a low-grade state of anxiety. You might all of a sudden go, [inhales] "Oh," you realize, "Oh, I'm not breathing." And your body's telling you that you're feeling like you're, you're drowning-

    9. SPSpeaker15:59

       Mm

    10. JFJefferson Fisher15:59

        ... in some sense 'cause in a, in a way, you are kind of suffocating yourself. Well, breath and communication slows things down. If you wanna control the moment, if you wanna sound like you have more control, and you wanna have more, better control over the outcome and the influence of it, let your breath be the first word that you say, meaning wherever your first word would be in your response. Let's say you said something to me that I didn't like, or really it could be anything, but something that's gonna require actual thought, something ab- above just the casual, "How's it going? What's going on?" We often just feel like I have to have that rapid response. I need to be right there. I need to step on the end of your sentence, and I need to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Where the actual power is is where the first word would be I put a breath in its place. Why? Because it gives us time. When you slow things down, it controls the moment more. Which one sounds like somebody who's someone who you want to listen to and follow? Somebody who says, reacts and goes, "Look, I already told you. I, I, I'm not going to do that." "I already told you. I'm not going to do that."

    11. SPSpeaker17:17

        [laughs]

    12. JFJefferson Fisher17:18

        Same words.

    13. SPSpeaker17:19

        Yeah.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher17:20

        Which one sounds like somebody you don't wanna mess with? [laughs] Which is one somebody who sounds like, "You know what? I could follow that guy or girl. I could follow this person. Uh, this is somebody who sounds balanced, grounded, in control."

    15. SPSpeaker17:32

        Yeah. There's a gravitas there, isn't there?

    16. JFJefferson Fisher17:33

        Absolutely. Yeah. The first voice sounds like, "I'm grasping for control. I need it. Give it to me. I'm, I'm not in control. I need it." The other person sounds like, "No, no, no, no. I, I've never lost it. I'm, I'm right here."

11. 17:45 – 19:44

    Energy, nonverbal signals, and preventing emotional flooding

    1. SPSpeaker17:45

       Th- this also speaks to non-verbal communication, doesn't it?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher17:49

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker17:49

       Because it's, it's what is the energy that I'm giving off as I'm having this conversation, because people respond to energy, don't they? They respond to stress.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher18:02

       Mm.

    5. SPSpeaker18:02

       Like people, you know, humans are a social species. We, we can mirror what's going on around us. Our nervous systems can respond to the nervous systems of the people around us. And so- You know, when you're able to, I guess, master your nervous system-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher18:19

       Right

    7. SPSpeaker18:20

       ... you know, w- maybe master's too strong a term. I mean, if you can, amazing.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher18:23

       Yeah.

    9. SPSpeaker18:23

       At least gain some degree of control over it, your communication is automatically going to get better.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher18:30

        Yes, because you, you never get emotionally flooded. I mean, we've had these, uh, arguments with people in our life, typically the ones we love most, where they become shouting matches, and to where you're shouting, and you don't even really know what you're saying at some point. If... [laughs] It doesn't matter if it's logical or not. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. You just know you're reacting because there's a threat. You either want to... I, I mean, that's why our, our fists clench, 'cause your body's ready to-

    11. SPSpeaker18:59

        Yeah

    12. JFJefferson Fisher18:59

        ... ready to swing. You may not throw a punch, but you're gonna say a hurtful word. You, you want it to cut. You want that word to sting. Same thing. Or, or people who want to... If you've been on the phone and somebody just hangs up while you're talking, or they instantly wanna leave the room, they, that's the, that's the flight. You find that in every conversation that you have, and the person that controls their nervous system, which to me is the, the number one way to do that in conversation is your breath because it slows things down. It keeps the analytical side engaged. You know this, and, uh, a lot of your listeners, of course, know this. It is something that can improve their conversation because it never sounds like you're lost. It never sounds like you're unsure of yourself, or that you're grasping or desperate, that you've lost your sense of-

    13. SPSpeaker19:44

        Yeah

12. 19:44 – 20:28

    Closing tease: applying clinical ‘triage’ thinking to communication

    1. JFJefferson Fisher19:44

       ... of control. And I'm very curious. I'll be asking you of, as a, as a doctor, a lot of the doctor friends that I have, they see things as kind of this triage of like if, then, if this, of like a bunch of... At least, this is my very simplistic version of it. They see it as, uh, kind of the roots of a, a tree, of how if you can't go here, you go here. You're finding the symptoms. Do you find that kind of mentality helpful in communication or hurtful in communication? 'Cause I know doctors that some are good at conversation. There are others that are not at all. If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 20:29